314: Creative Food Photography — How Kimberly Espinel Teaches and Inspires Food Photographers

This episode is sponsored by our sister site, Clarity. You've heard me talk about it a few times now on the podcast, and it's a tool that I'm really excited about. We've been spending a lot of time and energy thinking about how we can build Clarity as the go to source the tool for bloggers who want to learn how to organize, optimize, update their blog content in service of growth. That's what we're after and we're looking to build a tool to help bloggers do that and came out of some of the things that we were doing for Pinch of Yum. So Clarity gives you insights into the way your content can be stronger and more valuable for your readers, either through automatic suggestions.

It's not really suggestions, it's just like.

Information like, hey, the alt text is broken here, you need to. Or alt text is missing, you need to go in and fix that. Or the links are broken, you need to fix those. So not only does it help you optimize your, your library of blog content, maybe you have, you know, multiple hundreds of posts, or for some of us, even thousands, but once you do that, it'll help increase your traffic SEO ranking revenue, but it also helps validates your updates with a direct integration with Google Analytics. So what we're doing is we're saying, hey, we want to tie all of this together. So we want bloggers to have the ability to not only understand their content, to see the hundreds or thousands of pieces of content that they have, to also see some areas they could improve that maybe there's some, some things that are broken or missing that you could add. We want to allow people to also create campaigns. So if you do have things that you want to improve, great, you can create a campaign around that and say, hey, these hundred pieces of content, we want to optimize these hundred pieces of content. You'd use in Clarity, what's called a campaign, but we've also just released a new feature that integrates with Google Analytics. So now you can make a note. You say, hey, I made this update. And you can start to see what are the pieces of content in how have they performed over a certain period of time? So you can look back and say, over the past 30 days, is there any content on my site that has gotten zero page views?

Right.

None of us want that. But maybe that's a consideration around, should I have this piece of content on my site or should I treat this.

A little bit differently?

If it's just there and kind of taking up space, maybe I want to either republish it or just remove it. Some people do that with their content. They say, how do I filter out this content? Or maybe you want to look back and say, hey, over the past seven days, what's the piece of content that's been doing the best? What's the or 30 days, what's the piece of content that's been doing the best? Maybe I want to focus on some monetization efforts on that. Could I add a video to that piece of content that is going to earn higher ad revenue. So you have an ad player like through Ad Thrive or Mediavine, you create a video player and add that. It's a great way to optimize revenue to start to think strategically around some of those decisions. And we're building Clarity as a tool to help people do that, ourselves included. So clarity is C-L-A-R-I-T-I.com and all of this happens automatically. So you set up your blog with the plugin that we have. You connect your Google Analytics and all of your post information appears within Clarity. It integrates with Google Analytics. And our goal is to make it as simple as possible to understand that. And what we're doing is we're offering early access. We're calling it 25 Forever Plan for clarity. For anybody who wants to sign up early, be an early user, you can go to clarity.com food f o o D to sign up and get to.

On that early access list doing the.

25 forever plan for anybody who signs up early as a thank you to signing up early and also as a way to say, hey, no matter what, down the line, when we increase the prices, your account will not go up. It's 25 forever. You'll be locked in. Even if Clarity goes to a more expensive price point, $50, $100, whatever it might be, as an early user, we will honor that 25 forever plan that you signed up for. So again, it's clarity.com food. We're excited about this. It's going to be something that we're focusing on not only for ourselves to use for Pinch of Yum and the other sites that we have, but also for our users. It's one of the things that we love doing. We did that with wptasty as well, is building a tool, spending lots of time, money, energy, resources, building the thing that we use ourselves in this case for a pinch of yam and for the other sites, but then offering it up for other people to use in a way where you don't have to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars building this thing. You only have to spend $25 a month if you sign up for the early Access program. So clarity.com food is the best way to get there. Thank you to the Clarity team for sponsoring the Food Blogger Pro podcast.

Hello, everybody. Hello, everybody. This is Bjork Ostrom.

You are listening to the Food Blogger Pro podcast. My guess is that you know that you are listening to the Food Blogger.

Pro podcast just feels like something that I should say every time that we start.

Today's interview is with Kimberly Espinel, and she is from the Little Plantation. Her focus is food photography. She actually wrote a book, Creative Food Photography. It's a beautiful book. And we're going to be talking about food photography. And actually going into the interview, I thought, hey, we're just going to focus in on, like, food photography 101. What gear do you need? What settings should you use? But what I found as we moved into the interview is that we actually started to talk a lot about creative business and how as creators, we can move into doing business confidently in some of the mindsets and frameworks that we can think about as we venture into that world as creative people. Kimberly's gonna be talking about some of the things that she's learned and also some of the things that she does with the students that she works with and how she helps them along. So if you are a creative person who is interested in photography, building a business, and you want to do that well, you want to do both the creative and the business side really well, this is going to be a great interview. We're excited to share it with you. So let's go ahead and jump in. Kimberly, welcome to the podcast.

Hi, Bjork. I am super excited to be here. Thank you for having me.

Yeah, this is great.

I always talk about this. It's really wonderful. When people come to the table, you have your mic, you have your, like, sound insulation all around you. It's awesome. You've done this before. So you have a podcast. Tell us a little bit about that as we. As we get into things. What's the focus for that and how long have you been doing it?

Yes. So my podcast is called Eat, Capture, Share, and very similar to yours. It's really aimed at food bloggers as well as food photographers. So, you know, people who are really into the visuals of food. That's the focus. But we look at the social media side and the marketing and the business side of things, as well as the creative. And so it's kind of like that. And, and I felt, I started the podcast two and a half years ago now and I felt there was a kind of woman of color voice missing that took. Yeah, that just took a very female perspective on both, you know, both sides of the coin. The creative and also the business side of, of what it actually means to be a food photographer and food blogger.

When you work with students or in a workshop, how and maybe it depends on like what the, what the actual workshop is about. Do you find yourself talking more about the creative or more about the business? Or is it like. It depends and both are equally as important?

Yes. So I would say that the vast majority of students that come really come for the creative. And so I would say actually up until the pandemic, sort of 85% of the thing that I shared was more creative focused. But then the pandemic came and what I noticed was that a lot of people were actually struggling to make ends meet. And, and also that, you know, as more and more of us are doing food photography and becoming food bloggers, that there were so many people teaching the creative side. And actually gift is to share more of the business side because it's all good and well to know your camera and to know, you know, color theory and, and to be passionate about it. But then it's a whole other ball game to actually make an income doing what you love. So I've shifted a little bit more towards that since the pandemic. And yeah, I feel like I'm, I'm, I'm sort of stepping into what I'm, what I'm, what I'm called to teach.

That's cool. It's, I think of my dad who does pottery and he talks about his friends who also did pottery and ceramics and he had some of those people in his network, they were doing it full time. And one of the things you would talk about is a lot of them also had this like edge in business and operations. And it's a really rare combination to be both an artist and also to understand business and operations. And you know, I think of the work that. So Lindsey, my wife Lindsay, you are vaguely familiar, I think with the podcast, so know our story. She does pinch of Yam and that's kind of like the creative. And we have a team that we work with that does that. I kind of do like operations type stuff that just kind of worked out that way. For some people. They are creative and they might not have somebody who is like business minded operations or they might be business minded in Operations but they don't have somebody who they can work with to do the creative and they don't feel like they are the creative. I think of our friend who talks about like left brain, right brain, I need to hire a left brain to help me. How much of it do you think is somebody learning those skills saying hey.

I feel like I am a creative.

That'S what I love doing and I know that I need to do the business stuff so I'm going to learn it versus I, I just need to hire somebody and, and they need to help me do it. Do you have thoughts or opinions on that?

Yes. So I mean I think if you can hire, you know, the best situation is that you hire for the areas where you're weak in. So that could be like business, it could be website development, it could be whatever the case may be. Right. So that's always the ideal scenario. But my audience, and I'm guessing a lot of your audience too are at the beginning stages of their creative journey where hiring out just isn't quite within.

Yep.

Yeah. And so I think, I actually think it's much more of a story that we, we've told ourselves. So this kind of, you know, struggling creative, struggling artists that, that somehow has stuck with us. And then also, you know, a lot of people go into creativity it's because they're passionate about it. It's not because they want to run a, you know, six figure business. That's not often the motivation. And somehow it feels that if you do pursue the financial side of things, you're selling out or you're not really yard or whatever. And I actually think, I actually think there that we're in a really good position as creatives to be incredible business. Business. And I believe that because I feel that business is about communication.

Sure.

And we communicate so much through our visuals and it's about thinking and problem solving in a creative way. Like how can I sell this or how can like, you know, get to that brand? And I think it's fascinating and I have to say my background is, you know, I was an adoption social worker for 15 years. So I did nothing business related and it's not a language that I, Yeah. Ever, you know, knew about. But I think once you crack that code, a whole new world opens up and, and you can share your work with so many more people and have your work be so much more impact that I would love us to shift the narrative and allow ourselves to be the business people that we can be.

Yeah.

That is so cool.

Between really cool to hear your backstory before. So Lindsay and I, if you were to, like, put all of our siblings together, we'd have more adopted siblings than biological siblings. So, like, adoption is a really big part of who we are and our families and just such a wonderful thing. So thanks for your work in that realm. When did you know that you wanted to make a switch and how did you know the switch that you wanted to make was to this kind of hybrid world of food photography, food media, but then also like creative business.

So I would say my route to becoming, you know, creative business owner, food blogger, food photographer was really via a backstreet. That's how I always say, because I loved my job, I loved what I did. I saw myself doing that, you know, for the rest of my life. And then I gave birth to my son. And that really threw everything on its head because as you will well know, you know, from having had siblings, you know, who've gone through the adoption process, you know, it's not a sort of job. I did adoption and fostering as well. It's not a sort of job where you can go at 5:00pm, you know, see you later. If you have a family who are, you know, struggling or a child who's run away or whatever the case may be, it's just not a clear cut. 9 to 5. And then also just the way that I live in life, London in the uk and the way that things are set up, like, it took me an hour to get to work. So, you know, it really meant that I wasn't seeing my child for like 12 hours a day. And there's nothing wrong with that. And, you know, everybody finds a path that works for them. But that setup didn't work for me.

Yeah. And so I realization I love this thing, but it's not working for me. And so then what?

Like, then what? Exactly. So then I did a lot of soul searching. I was like, okay, I want a career that fits around the needs of my child. And, you know, what am I passionate about? What would I like to do? And it was so. He was born in 2010 and I don't know, that was kind of when food blogs were emerging, when they're becoming a thing. Enjoy the baker and all the things. Right. And so I, I was upset, I read them, I marked them, I loved them, and I always been, you know, passionate about food. So in fact, what I did is I decided to retrain as a nutritional therapist. So that's what I did. And then I decided, let me start a food blog. So that I can document. So I switched to a plant based diet and let me document those recipes, start a food blog so that I can attract an audience. And by the time I graduated, I was getting paid work as a food blogger and as a stylist. And then I actually decided, you know what? This, I love this. And so I went all in. And that's kind of how it all, how it all came to be.

Yeah, that's really cool. One of the things that I love about that is, and one of the things that I think we often see is people starting out saying, hey, I'm going to go the path of like nutritional work. You start to do that. And in deciding confidently that's where you want to go, there is this other world that's introduced to you and that allows you to then have the opportunity to shift a little bit and to say, actually, this is where I want to go. And the point in that is encouraging people to not get too bogged down in saying, like, what if I don't pick the right thing? But to be light on your feet and say, pick somewhere. But also be open to the subtle shifts and changes that might come as you learn more about yourself and your passion and your area of interest.

But along with that, you have to pay the bills.

So what did it look like for you as a business owner to say, I know that I'm interested in this and here's how I'm going to make this work From a financial perspective, were there decisions you had to make along the way? Did you say, you know what, I'd really love to do this, but it's not working. So I'm going to do this thing that is more financially viable. You kind of knew the creative. So what did the business side look of it and the decisions along the way with that?

Yes. So when I started my nutrition studies, I moved from working full time to part time. So I still had my adoption works. I had that, you know, that income stream, so to say. And I also have a partner who worked full time. But as I was, you know, as the blog was developing and gaining momentum, I started getting approached by brands for sponsored content and I styled a cookbook and, you know, lots of, you know, little, little jobs came to be. And so that by the time I graduated, I had proof of concept, I had an income stream and it was nothing to write home about. Like, it wasn't as though I won the lottery or anything.

But we say like, if you can make a dollar, you can make two. And so if you do, if you Have a thousand dollar, you know, month. You're like, wait, if I do this.

A little bit different and like change.

This and do more of this, then maybe this could work.

Exactly. So that's exactly that. I was just like, you know what, this is possible. So what I did is I gave myself a year. I said, you know what, let me give myself a year. I've got enough in savings, I can do this, you know, So I just gave myself a year. And then the other thing to kind of piggyback onto what you said before is I also looked at my blog stats and I looked at the content that was performing really well and the content that wasn't resonating. And ironically, when I wrote about nutrition, people weren't that interested to hear that from me. But when I wrote content around food photography, I had lots of blog hits. And then I also had somebody kind of randomly contact me saying, I'm going to be in London for a couple of days. Will you teach me food photography? And I never considered that. And, and then she came and she paid and I was like, wait a minute, like all these pieces are, are telling me something. So I shifted my content more towards food photography. And that's really when things kind of, you know, took off, as it were.

Yeah, it's interesting. It feels like a really good example of having your ear to the ground and saying, what are the little movements and changes that I see happening around my business and the content that I'm creating? And there's this combination of stick to itness. Right. Like, especially in the world of publishing of content and creative work, you have to commit to the thing for a long period of time. But to contrast that, you also have to be willing to change to the needs of people. Like, there has to be this intersection of what you're interested in doing and directionally where you're going with what do people need and what will they pay for, Whether it's a sponsored content, whether it's a workshop, and finding that balance between those. So do you have any advice for people who are at that point where they're trying to find what am I good at, what am I interested in and what do people actually need and what will they pay for in finding that intersection?

Yeah, it's. It's called ikigai or something like that. Right.

I'm not familiar with that.

Yeah, there's a Japanese term for it. I don't want to butcher it, but I think I'll maybe if we can put it in the show, these three circles. And when they all collide. Is that so, you know, I think the one part that a lot of food bloggers, at the start of their journey kind of skip is the tuning in to what your audience wants. And that can either be, you know, very obviously, you can just see the. The posts that, that people comment on on Instagram especially, or the stuff that's pinned more on Pinterest. But I do like to dig deep into two other areas. So one is blog stats or on Instagram, you also have insights. So I tend to do that at the end of the month. I kind of look at my Instagram stories, my posts, the newsletters I send out that have the best open rates, and I try and see is there a common denominator, and then really hone in on that. And then also very boring, but very necessary is actually look at my spreadsheets.

Sure.

Like, look at where does my income coming from? You know, what, did I have a client who booked me for food photography? Can I contact him or her again and see if we can work together again? Or is there a preset that I sold that's selling really well? Can I push it to the front of the blog? You know, all those little things that I do take out time at the end of the month to do the review. And I feel it's made a huge difference where I didn't do that at the start, I didn't do. I was just like, I'm just gonna post anything. And, you know, so there is some thought process and some intentionality behind to make growth. To make growth happen.

Yeah, it's. I think sometimes what we can do is we can get so heads down that we just churn out stuff. Like we get in production mode, we photograph, we do video, we write blog posts, we do social, we respond to everybody, whatever it is. And I think the act of reflecting and analyzing sometimes doesn't feel like work. But I think of the analogy of, you know, if you have eight hours to cut down a tree, you sharpen your axe for seven and you cut for one. Like, I think there's something to be said about that. Maybe that's not the exact spread of time, but even for some people to say, well, just take at least an hour to sharpen your ax. And especially with knowledge work, it feels like some of the work of knowledge work is just thinking about work, which seems a little bit kind of like work inception. But what does that look like for you? Do you schedule that time? Do you say every Friday at the end of the month? I'm going to do this, or is that just naturally a way that you operate now where you take out your spreadsheet and you say, like, okay, for the previous month, here's how much work came in and what areas. What can I do more of? What can I do less of?

Yeah. So, Bjork, I don't know if you want to cut this out, but I can just tell that you're excited about talking about this.

Great.

Like, this is the stuff.

We'll leave it in. We'll leave it in. That's your. That's your, like, coaching ability to, like, the insight on this, which is awesome.

This is the geeky stuff. This is the geeky stuff. But this is actually where. This is where it all happens. So I'm obsessed with journals and productivity. So I have, like, three journals and one of them, again, maybe we can put the link in the show notes. I love it because it has. At the front, it has your goals. So for me, I always have an income goal, you know, that I set for the year. And then it has your kind of daily goals and your priorities around that. And so I really try and tie those to, like, if my income goal is xyz. Sorry, if my income goal is xyz, like, what can I do today to move the needle forward? I gotta look at my stuff. So I do that actually on a. On a rolling. I do that daily. I check my income daily. You know, I do, like, my. My. I do my accounts. And in part, I also think that helps my mindset. So if I feel like I've just lost a client or, you know, I did a discovery call with a student and they didn't book, you know, sometimes we can feel down. But then I go back and actually, no, somebody bought my presets today. You know, like, it just. It makes me feel like I'm, you know, it's like a little boost. And I think we need that when we're working for ourselves to know that we're moving forward. But I check daily, and then I check at the end of the month because of the. The accounts that I do. So it's really, really like. It's a daily thing. Just a checking in and just, you know, because I think if I see that there's something that's happening in my business, like, it just makes me feel like there's abundance and then just at the end of the month so I can rejig things. So it's very boring. But I. I do it daily. Yes.

And so is that you manually going in and saying, like, okay, here's where I sell presets. Here's where they're available. You know, I sell them through whatever gumroad or whatever service, copy that, paste it in to the spreadsheet, and then just kind of repeat that. Is that essentially what that process looks like?

Yes. Yeah, essentially.

And then to say. To reflect on that and to look and say, great, this is going well. This isn't going well, or it's more just like introspectively saying, this is working well for me. So even in these moments that I. That aren't going well, that you. You have traction, you have kind of positive stuff happening. So you have this spreadsheet, and you do that on a. On a daily basis. You enter this stuff in. Can you talk about how much does that take? Is that like 15 minutes? Is it an hour? Is it two minutes?

I have to say, I. You know, for me, I don't have to do it because I have an accountant. I have to say I'm now at a stage where I haven't accounted. But I do it as I said, because for me, it's about feeling like there's abundance, like, it shifts something in my mind, and I find it helpful. And then the same way, if I have a month where my sales aren't so great, so where the, you know, business side is, then I don't need to freak out. But then I feel like I have some sort of power, you know, that it isn't all outside my control, that I can say, okay, last month we did this in revenue, and this month we did half. What shifted? What changed? Did I send out your newsletters? Did I do your blog posts? You know, what can we do to, you know, did I lose a client or whatever it is? So it gives me the sense of. That I'm in control of my destiny. And, you know, again, when you work for yourself and you don't have a boss telling you how amazing you are, you know, like, you're. That gives me. It gives me the power, and I found it empowering. So I will take out whatever half an hour in the morning to kind of plan my day, to, you know, do my spreadsheets, to do all the things, because it fuels me for the rest of the day, it gives me direction. Because if not, what I find is I could use that start of the day to scroll on Instagram or because. So seductive. It's so wonderful. But that gives me that. That anchors me, if that makes sense.

That's great. Yeah. I think a lot about people who talk about the first half hour hour of your day being your, you know, it's kind of setting the direction for the day. And one way you could do that is like to scroll through Instagram or to like, pop open your email and just kind of browse through that. But to say, hey, I'm what's important for the business. Well, in this case, revenue. Where are the places where that's coming from? Great. Here's where it's coming from. How does that inform the decisions I'm going to make today in terms of what I do and work on? Great. It reminds me a lot of when we would do monthly kind of recap reports for Pinch of Yam and say, hey, here are the things that worked, here are the things that didn't work. But that rhythm for me was really helpful as like a forced exercise to reflect on what we were doing, what we weren't doing, what was working, what wasn't working. And it's something that I miss about doing those. We could, like, replicate it, but we haven't. So it's something that makes a lot of sense. The piece that I'm curious about that you talked about before was this idea of treating anytime that you have an issue or a problem that you come up against, instead of thinking like, oh, this is a business problem. I don't do business. I need some help with this. Instead saying, hey, this is a creative problem.

This is a problem that I can.

Come up with a creative solution for. And I think that mindset of, like, curiosity, the mindset of creativity as it relates to a problem, maybe it's not a business problem. Maybe it's a puzzle, and you get to figure out the puzzle. How do you do that? What does that look like for you as you've come up against, you know, you gave the example of, like, hey, revenue was half this month than what it was before. Instead of being like, ah, this is the worst. How do you put on a. Be. Stay light on your feet and kind of be creative as a. As in regards to that, as a. As a problem that you can kind of approach creatively?

Yes. So can I. I'm going to say something before that, and it might seem a little left field, but I hope it's connected. And I see this again because I'm listening to what I hear, you know, my audience tell me on Instagram stories. So another thing that I do is I. And again, this. Hope it makes sense. This comes because I'm an immigrant. I'm a woman. I'm a woman over 40. I'm a Brown woman. And so, you know, there's always a lot of negativity that I've experienced, you know, and so what I've always done is I've always had, like really positive self talk.

Yeah.

So I always say, yeah, I'm an amazing photographer. Yeah, I'm an amazing teacher.

Yeah.

Like, I tell myself that, you know, just to just. Just to give myself strength. And I noticed that a lot of people have a lot of negative self talk. I'm not good enough. Oh, you know, I'm not really a food photographer. Oh, this client said no because, you know, what I offer isn't amazing or whatever, you know, like, I don't get into that. So that there is. And all that to say is, so if there is a day where I'm not earning enough, I don't think like, oh, my God, I'm crap. I don't know what I'm doing or I'm not good enough. I think there's something that isn't working with my marketing or how I'm communicating. This offer that I need to figure out. I need to figure out how. Because what I offer, I feel is the best I can offer. I feel I give my all. I know that it can be transformational. So I know that nothing necessarily wrong with the offer that I'm putting on the table. There's something else that's not right and I need to figure that out.

Yeah.

Is it because my copy isn't right? Did I not use the right photo? Was it the timing? Like, I love, I love the challenge of that. I love the challenge of that. But I think the foundation is that I believe in. In what I have to offer. And I think that is really helpful when you're stepping into a space like we. We do as food photographers and food bloggers that is crowded. Like, it's so easy to look left and right and think like, oh, she's so much better.

Yeah.

And so. And so their food photography class is like, you know, like, you can get into that. I try not to get into that. I try to go in with, I can do this.

Yeah.

There's just something that is a Ryan. I need to put my finger on it and sort it out.

Yeah.

I don't know if that makes sense.

I think it's incredibly powerful. And what I heard you saying, or at least a piece of it, is to not look inward and say, why am I. What is wrong about me that this didn't work. But to say externally, I know that what I'm doing is good. I know that it's impactful. I know that the work that I'm doing is excellent. So if there is some hiccup along the way where that's not fully getting communicated, let's look at that. Like, maybe it's the copy and the copy needs to be changed to do a better job explaining that. So essentially looking at the external things and saying, how do I give as clear visibility inward to what I'm doing, which I know is excellent and wonderful and worthy of whatever it is that you're doing, being hired, paying for, as opposed to saying like, shoot, how do I fix myself? Is that a little bit of, kind of what you're saying?

A hundred percent. And I'm saying this because a lot of creatives that's like almost in our DNA doubt themselves. And I see this so much. People who create incredible work, like, stuff when you want to lick the screen, it's so gorgeous. And they're so tough on themselves. And so that's why also I want to model that because I want them to see, like, I think as food bloggers and food photographers, we bring so much joy into the world. What we do is so amazing, right? Like, we get these ingredients and then we create something that's beautiful. I mean, I don't know how much you're into the food photography side of things, but, you know, I remember, you know, the two or three food bloggers whose work I just fell in love with and who, who, where I was like, oh my God, I want to do that. Yeah, yeah, that's, you know, the power of what we do. And, and I don't want us to ever forget. Like, I want people to know, like, they're doing amazing things. They're making brands lives better, they're creating incredible content. Their work is worthy and like, and I need to model that in order to teach that, if that makes sense.

Totally. How much do you feel like the conversations that you're having with photographers, creators, how much of it is mindset, kind of reflecting on who you are, how you work, versus, hey, here's how you get better at shooting in manual. Like, really tactical.

I would say the audience that I'm now cultivating is moving more towards the latter because, you know, people can just go on YouTube and, you know, like, when we started, that was. None of that existed. And now it's just at the fingertips. But also there comes a point where you figure manual out. You know, you crack that, that nut, so to say. And then the next stage is about really positioning yourself and Distinguishing yourself. And that actually requires mindset but also introspection in the same way that that all that we've discussed about, like, how is your photography different? How are you going to stand out? You're going to get noticed? How are you going to say, stop comparing yourself and imitating what is or has already been done to, to really fine tune your own voice? And so a lot of, you know, that's really the work that I'm doing much more now than quote, unquote, just, you know, manual mode, which is important, super important. But I think that for me, where I'm stepping into my role as a teacher is to really support people in finding their own unique creative style.

And what does that, what does that transformation look like? So where, where, where do you, where are people on that journey usually? Like, if you were to kind of boil it down to. And then what does it look like once you're on the other side? Are you ever on the other side?

Well, I think it's a lifelong journey for sure, but I do think there's, there's steps that are noticeably, you know, that transformational steps that are, are that everyone can see. So I think when, a lot of the times when students come to me, they've, you know, if they've watched the YouTube videos and they've done all the things and what they're ending up is they're creating images that look generic, that look a little bit like what everybody else is doing. And so what I.

They're really good, but they're really similar to. Yes, I use the analogy all the time of songwriting. And it's like you, it's like, oh, that's a really good song, but it kind of sounds like, you know, sealed, Kissed by a rose or whatever. It's like, wait, this is the same melody?

Yeah. And so part of why that happens is because a lot of the times we are very external, so which is normal. That's how we're set up as humans. We have our eyes at the front of our, our face. And so, and we're spending so much time on social media, so we're consuming a lot of content and it's very hard not to get influenced by that. In fact, when you're at the start, it, it's very natural to want to imitate and, you know, emulate the people that you admire. But then there comes a stage where we actually have to do the introspective work and to think about what, what is my unique gift and how can I bring that to the fore? And that consists, for example, at looking at. I always say, look at your color story. So are you on the cool spectrum? Are you on the warm spectrum? Do you. You find that you're moving towards using analog colors or complementary colors, or how are you expressing colors, for example? And that is one part of how you start creating your own look and your own feel. And. And what I do is I ask people to kind of play with different ways of working with color, for example, so cool and warm, and then the different ways of combining colors and to write down, which one do you like best? Like, which one got you really excited, which image? Because it gives you lots of indicators of where you. Where you are. And the same with editing, the same with light work. All these things can be manipulated and controlled and changed in such a way that it allows you to create a signature look that somebody will see your image and it'll go, that's, you know, Lindsay, that's Kimberly. And I can really see that transformation. I also can see how people feel more confident in playing more boldly with color and really having a go at editing. There is, like, a messy phase in the middle where, you know, you're trying stuff out, but then when you come out the other end. Yep, it feels really good.

Yeah. But I would imagine one of the fears, like, if I put myself in that position is looking a lot of the reasons why I think we emulate certain people is because they have been successful. And there's a safety in saying, this person did it this way and they were successful doing that. So there's a relative amount of safety in me doing it this way, because that's how this person did it. That could be applied to photography, operations, best practices, whatever it might be, business or creative. So how do people feel confident in creating their own look, style, brand, knowing that they might not have examples of that being successful in the world?

So I think one is you don't necessarily have to share everything, you know, like, you can do a lot of the things behind the scenes.

Yeah.

And then something that you feel really confident with. I also think it's nice to be part of a creative community of people who cheer you on, maybe who give you feedback. So, you know, my courses, for example, we have Facebook groups, but you don't even need that. Like, you could have a community on Instagram, you know, maybe a DM group of a friend that you connect with. But then also, I think the other side of discomfort is where the magic happens. You know, it's part of the process and sticking with a set Formula, I think a becomes boring very quickly, but I don't think you can ever be as good as the person that you're emulating. So, you know, I just think there's this. Yeah, there's magic at the other side of trying and failing and trying and failing and. And that's where you want to get to.

And part of it is I think about this with podcasting, and I listen to certain podcasters and I'm like, oh, my gosh, I love the way that they podcast, they interview. I think of a couple different people who are, like, really, like, confrontational, edgy. It's like, I love listening to that. I know that's not going to be me. So if I try and emulate it, I could put those jeans on. They're not going to fit very well. And I would imagine the same thing with photography. One of the things that you're trying to do is emulate when it's something that fits into who you are and matches what you're about in service of becoming the maximum version of who you are as a. As a creator. Like, how do you become a hundred. Like, max it out 100%. This is perfect alignment in my style. My. You know, how I want to show myself and present myself to the world. It might have little elements of those people who have inspired you, but really, it is like you 100%. Is that kind of what you're trying to get through in that transformation?

Yes, exactly. And I think one way that that can be helpful in, you know, stopping yourself from emulating certain people. Like, if you notice that you're doing that is either a, you know, mute them for a little while and. Or also start following work of people that are totally different than you.

Yeah.

So that, you know, there's three creators who I really, really feel inspired by, and they're all so different. And so there's a little element of each of them that I've just seen, you know, that I. That really resonates that I've kind of pulled to create my own look. And. And I think that, you know, versus just following everybody who does exactly the same kind of visual storytelling as me. That probably.

Yeah.

Wouldn't have led to the style that I have now.

And who are those people that you appreciate or just.

Yes. So somebody called Gabriel Cabrera. He's. He's a Mexican Canadian food photographer who does a lot of really abstract.

Yeah.

You know, artificial light colors. Like, it's neon green. It's crazy. I love it. And I love colors, so I don't work like that. And then the other one's Louisa Brimble. She does a lot of very natural, so very unstyled and very homely. Like it feels homely. And that's one something I love to convey my photography is the sense of, of belonging and, and you know, just a down to earthness.

Yeah.

And then the other one is, is Aaron Goyoaga or Canel Vanille. And she does, you know, just very kind of a little bit of, a little bit moody, darker shadows, but still. And that's very much me as well. So they're so different and, and yet each one of them has totally influenced the photographer that I am today.

Yeah, it's not exactly the same, but there's a little bit of overlap. So you can find inspiration without feeling like this person is doing kind of very similar work to what I'm doing, which I think, yeah, that's great. So let's say you get to that point, you've kind of in this early stages, you get kind of the technical expertise which then kind of allows you to use that technical expertise to refine your style. I think it's kind of hard to refine your style if you haven't refined the tool set that's going to allow you to do that. Understanding your camera, understanding, you know, basics of styling, maybe some of the basics of like composition, things like that. So you go through these kind of general stages, technical kind of kind of style or brand refinement and then you get to the other side. How do you translate that into a business, if that's the thing that you want to do for some people that they can stop there and feel really good about it. I'm a creator, I've refined what I do. I feel really good about it. But some people then want to take that and say, great, I want to use this in the marketplace to create an income in some way. How do, how do you go about doing that in the world of photography?

So a couple of ways. So one would be, I'm really very much pro having a blog. I know it's not quite as trendy anymore, but you know, working on SEO and just thinking about what would my ideal customer be? Googling and making sure that you meet those needs and then showing. Yeah, for example, I, I have a portfolio page and I've just, you know, used all my keywords and tagged on my photos so that if somebody were to type in London food photographer, then it would lead very nicely to, you know, my portfolio page and also show examples of the kind of work that I've done. And then I, I do think posting regularly on Instagram, Pinterest, those kind of places is really powerful. So just the way that things are now, posting just once or twice a week is very hard. But you know, you need to post more regularly and make sure that you use all the hashtags again that people would be looking for. And also reaching out to brands, like if there are brands that you can see are working with other food photographers or food bloggers, you know, being cheeky and DMing them or emailing them, you know, I've struck gold that way and it's worked for me so I can definitely recommend it.

But shared specifically what that looks like and like walk people through. There was a brand, you were interested in working with them, you saw that they had worked with other food photographers, you messaged them and something came from that. How, how do you do that? Like how would people go through the process of making that work? And any advice that you have for folks.

Yes, so what Like a good example I can share is another food photographer who I am friendly with. I saw that she was doing, you think it was a campaign with KitchenAid, I want to say. And so I DM'd her. And I mean this is somebody I knew, I have to say. So I wasn't like, you know, fangirling or anything. And I said, listen, I noticed that you work with KitchenAid. I'd love to work with them. Are you happy to share the, the contact that you use? And she's like, yeah, of course. And so then I DM'd that context like, listen, my name is Kimberly. I saw that you worked with so and so if you're ever doing a campaign and looking for vegan food bloggers or whatever, you know, do consider me. And then they did. And yeah, so yeah, that's how personal, warm connection.

There's something to be said about, it's like the basic premise of LinkedIn, like, hey, you know this person who knows this person, can you make the connection here? And it's manual and it takes work and you know, it's not something that scales but it, but the idea is kind of relationship based connections and that takes time, but it's also impactful. So love that. Yeah, yeah, that's great. Other, other ways that you've seen students or people that you work with find success as a, as a creator, whether it be sponsored content, you know, doing direct work with clients, like, hey, I'm going to do a shoot at a restaurant or for a brand, other ways that, that you see people having success or things that should be considered kind of in the world of photography or creative media around food.

Yeah. So what I always advise people to do is to create the content that their ideal customer would be looking for. So if, for, you know, for me, for example, I love working with plant based and vegan brands and you know, if I look at the sort of content that they love very much aligns with my style. It's a lot of rich, deep colors, kind of emphasize that plant based aspect. So I'm not going to use muted to tone, you know, like I'm going to kind of double down on that. So really looking at what would appeal to, to my ideal customer. And I also think if you're at the very, very start of your journey, I know this is an unpopular opinion, but if you're at the very start of your journey, you don't have a portfolio yet, you don't have experience yet. I think there's nothing wrong with reaching out either to a brand or to a restaurant saying, listen, I'd love to get some experience. Would you like some photos and doing some quote unquote work for free?

Yeah.

Just to build up your portfolio, to build up your confidence, to build up, you know, some experience. And sometimes I've seen that happen too, is those kind of free things can then turn into paid work as well.

Yeah.

So, you know, I think, yeah. But then again, it goes back to thinking problem solving that business side, make it work.

Yeah. There's a story from somebody who attended a workshop that we did, like an online workshop workshop. I'm trying to think this was a few years ago, but I, I, I said the same thing. I'm like, hey, I'm totally okay with working for free. We did it. It's like, you don't want to work for free in the sense where I think there's a lot of negative connotations around working for free. When a brand comes to you and says like, hey, we'll do this in exchange for exposure, like that's one thing.

But if you're in the early stages.

It'S kind of like interning. And it's like, I interned. I know a lot of people who interned now have very successful careers. And it's as you're getting started, you need something to put in your portfolio and say like, hey, I created this thing for this brand. Here's what it looked like. You can do that. Whether it's you practicing without an official relationship with the brand and just posting like branded photos or you could reach out to a brand and say, I'm.

Interested in doing this.

Would you be interested if I do it for free? And some would say yes, some might say no. In this case, the person did that, I think she actually did it in a post, talked about a brand that she loved and then after shared it with them and said, hey, if you'd ever need food photography help, would love.

To offer my services.

And they're like, actually, that'd be awesome.

And it was like, oh, cool, it worked.

And the follow up to me after was like, how much do I charge? I was like, oh my gosh, that's another conversation. But yeah, I think that's a great point and something that, that should be considered. If you're in the early stages, just don't stay there too long. Eventually get to the point where you feel comfortable charging your services.

Yeah, I'm curious to hear, you know.

As we kind of come to the end here, you've, you have a lot of different places that you've created product services, you work with students, you, you do workshops, you have your book. What have you found to be most impactful from like a business growth perspective?

Oh, that is a really. So I would say two things. One is I love my digital products because, you know, it takes a lot of work upfront to create them, but they are passive income streams and they're things that I sell, you know, like to use the stereotypical thing, things I sell in my sleep. And I do love that. For me, the most lucrative is actually my food photography work. So I have a handful of recurring clients that I create, you know, monthly content for. So that's quite lucrative. And then finally my online courses are much more profitable than my in person workshops. And that's just because there's much more overhead in running, you know, in person. Yeah, yeah, exactly. The food. And, and also it just takes just more admin time to arrange everything. You know, where's everybody saying accommodation, all those things. But online courses just means you can serve more people. And you know, again, there's that upfront cost of creating it, but once you've created it, you know, it's, it's, it's an amazing. Yeah. Income stream. So yeah, those are kind of my, my three things.

And, and kind of as a lead in, as we close out, I'm sure there are people who, whether it's a course, whether it's a workshop, whether it's working with you, coaching or your book, a lot of options. We'll link to those in the show Notes. How can. Can people reach out and connect with.

You, work with you?

And what would you. Would there be kind of like a. A process that, like, hey, start by signing up for the email list or start by, like, buying the book and going through that, or is it kind of like a la carte in regards to where people are on their journey, in regards to what it looks like to work with you?

Yes. So I think that the. The two best ways, I would say, is, number one, I run an Instagram food photography challenge called Eat Capture Share. I've been running that for four years, and more than 3,000 people sign up to it every season. And it is free. And what it does, it goes back to something we talked about before. Is it really? For one, I share a lot of my teaching with participants, and there's also a live Instagram Live kind of show where we do teaching as well. So there's a lot of value that you get for free just from that, you know, in terms of your learning. But the second thing it does, and I think that's a side effect I hadn't kind of, you know, anticipated, is a lot of really strong friendships are built, you know, because for three weeks, you're with this group of people who feel just as passionate about food photography as you do, and you set these really challenging tasks, and everybody's cheering you on and commenting and following you, and, you know, there's just these really strong bonds that are built through that. So that is the best and my most popular offering. Yeah, for sure. I think for people who are really already a couple, and that's for everybody, beginners to, you know, professionals. But I think for people who know their manual mode, who've, you know, done all the things, watch all the YouTube videos, then I would say the next part is my book, because it's really about finding your style and finding your creative voice and, you know, doing that introspective work. I think I shared my heart in that book and, like, really, I really believe in it. I really feel that it's transformational. And those are the two things, the two most powerful things, things I think I could. Yeah, yeah, could mention.

That's awesome. And it's beautiful. It's really well done. And so not only is it impactful in terms of the content, but also it's like a book you could set out and people who don't do food photography could look through, and I think really enjoy looking through it. And so it's a beautiful creation in and of itself and also impactful.

So Kimberly, thanks for coming on the podcast, for talking through this stuff.

Really fun for me to connect with you and we'll be sure to link up all of that stuff in the show notes so people can check that out as well. And you have your podcast, maybe that we can end with that in terms of where people can check that out and subscribe because everybody listening to this, they're going to be podcast people. So where, where do people go for that?

Yes, it's called Eat Capture, Share and we're now in season six, starting again in late August. And as I mentioned before, we cover food photography, food blogging, the business side of things and yeah, love people to tune in.

Cool, we'll link to that as well. Kimberly, thanks for coming on.

Thank you so much for having me.

That's a wrap for this episode. Another big thank you to Kimberly for coming on and sharing her insights. As always, make sure to check out the show notes. There's a ton of resources that we include and I know most, most people probably listen to this when they're driving in their car or working out or doing dishes. That's kind of my podcast listening list. Those are the times when I'm most likely to listen to a podcast. But if that's true for you, maybe make a mental note or an actual note on your phone to go to foodblockerpro.com podcast that's where you're gonna see all of the different podcasts that we have. You can search for older episodes. It's something that not a lot of people people do. But it's a great resource if you want to dig deeper. If it's an area that you're interested in or an area that you want to learn a little bit more about, that's the best place to go. Foodbloggerpro.com podcast the best place to go if you are interested in becoming a Foodblogger Pro member is foodbloggerpro.com membership. If you haven't ever checked it out, the good thing is you can do that in a relatively risk free way because we have a 60 day money back guarantee. So if you get in and 31 days down the line you're like, wait a minute, maybe this isn't what I thought it was.

You can just reach out, we'll process.

A refund for you. So it is low pressure but potential high reward. If you dig in, if you go through the content, if you engage in the forums. And that's why we exist is because we want to have an influence and an impact on people who are creators online in the food space. And if that's you, Food Blogger Pro is a great place and a great community for you to spend time in. And that's really the key is you have to invest in order to get out of it. And we want to help accelerate any learning and traction that you have with your business. So again, that's FoodloggerPro.com membership. You can check that out. And if you haven't yet, go ahead and subscribe to the podcast. In whatever app you listen to podcasts, there should be a subscribe or I think Apple is actually calling it Follow now because I think for a long time people got confused and thought if they hit subscribe then they'd have to pay for it. But following along with the podcast is free. So go ahead and do that in whatever app that you use. Thanks for listening. We hope you enjoyed the episode. We'll be back with a new episode next week. Until then, make it a great week. Thanks.

Sa.