315: Decolonizing the Food Industry — Sharing African Food, Breaking Down Stereotypes, and Combating Cultural Appropriation with Zoe Adjonyoh

Foreign.

Hello, hello, hello, this is Bjork Ostrom. You are listening to the Food Blogger Pro podcast. Today we are chatting with Zoe Ajanya and she's going to be sharing a little bit about her story, kind of the origins of the what is now known as Zoe's gone in a kitchen and how it started as a pop up restaurant. Really what that is and how that works. It was something that I had never really thought about before. But when she shared how it started and then what that looked like to actually do that, it was just a really fascinating concept to me. She also is going to be sharing about a concept or really a framework for thinking about how you approach recipes, cultural recipes, and the idea of appreciation versus appropriation. And we're going to be talking about how, whether it's a restaurant or a food publisher, you can be using that framework to think about how you're talking about recipes, how you're approaching recipes, how you're promoting recipes and food from different cultures. And she's also going to be sharing. This was kind of a fun one. A story about riding in a taxi when somebody realized who she was and the conversation that came out of that. And I found that to be a really unique and fascinating conversation. So let's go ahead and jump into this interview with Zoe from Zoe's Gonna Kitchen. Zoe, Zoe, welcome to the podcast.

She foolishly sips tea as her introduction is made. Yes, hello. Thank you for.

It reminds me of. There was a time when I took a handful of almonds and ate them right before and I was like, okay, here we go. It's like worst food that you can possibly eat before starting to record a podcast.

Let me just segue real quick because I did a little last summer during the pandemic I, I hosted some content on for the Culture platform on Instagram. For the Culture is a, a black woman's food and drink magazine basically. And I had a little show thing called Sunday Crunch which I thought was very nitty. And I would encourage people to have a snack during our discussions. And I always had. I eat a lot of almonds and yeah, yeah, I was always just eating almonds so people, I was just spitting almonds at people while they were talking or I was laughing. Yeah, take away the crunch. Don't eat while you're talking so you can relate.

It's not the best conversation food. It's also not the best. Your voice is being recorded. Food like things that you should. Tea, great. Almonds, not so great. These are the lessons that we've that We've learned through trial and error. Really excited to have this conversation with you today. For me, spending time reading about your story, who you are, it was really inspiring to spend some time doing that. And obviously there will be folks who.

Are familiar with what you do, and.

Some who aren't will link to the different places that they can find you. The thing that stuck out to me when I was exploring your site was this sentence here, and I'd be interested to kind of kick this off. It says, I founded Zoe's Ghana kitchen in July 2010 to start an African food revolution and bring African foods to the masses. Did you know at the time that you wanted to start a revolution? And how do you do that?

Yeah, good question. I mean, the truth is so between. So in 2010, the concepts. The germ of the concept, I guess seed of the idea started because that's the first time I cooked for money, right? And I cooked this dish called ground nut stew, otherwise known in my house as peanut butter stew. And I borrowed a table, borrowed a baby bedding oven, borrowed the pots, borrowed everything in order to do this. The context of that is well documented elsewhere. But there's a festival in Hackney where it was an opportunist moment to make some money because I had just come back from traveling around the States completely broke, and thousands of people were pouring into this neighborhood I live in where there was nowhere for them to eat or drink. And my home, which was a live workspace warehouse, was being used as an art gallery. So I was just kicking around with nothing to do. So I thought, oh, I'm gonna see if I can make some money, some food.

Yeah.

And that moment created a party outside my front door, which was fun, but it also raised some questions. And those questions were, why don't people know where Ghana is?

And, yeah.

Why have people never heard of this food? And. Yeah, why are these people asking me to do this again? Because I, you know, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just making.

Yeah. Ask you to do it again. Meaning, hey, next week, next month. Exactly. My family's getting together. Can you do this?

Yeah, exactly. So but at the time, my mentality. My mentality was I'm going to be doing. I was getting ready to do an MA in creative writing at Goldsmith, and this was like my. I thought my raison d' etre was to be a writer, right? And I'd avoided that for. I'd avoided being creative for the majority of my adulthood.

Why do you think that was?

Oh, there's Myriads of reasons. Mostly fear.

Yeah.

But also some of it being not feeling as though that was something that was available to me and having come from, you know, my father being in a strict African man.

Yeah.

Kind of thumped that strict in terms.

Of policy and upbringing and.

Well, I mean it was academic academia all the way was my childhood. There was no room for flowery writing and things like that.

Yes. Like essays. Essays over poetry.

Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah.

And they were. Luckily I came back into a community of creative people and got inspired again and that's what led me down the writing path anyway. And then in the middle of it, food turned up this mom. So it, you know, in my brain lots of synapses were firing like this is weird. Why is this a problem? And why don't they know this? And I didn't think it was my problem to solve per se, but I had a really fun time doing it. And so I collected all the email addresses and said if I do it again, I'll let you know, you know. And so between 2010 and 2012 I used Ghana Kitchen to support myself through the MA but. But I was still doing it in a very kind of haphazard, as you like it way. You know, it's a supper club in my house when I felt like doing it.

Yeah.

There was no structure really to it. But what was happening in the meantime was I went on a trip to around Europe with some colleagues of mine on the MA course. We ended up in Berlin and then I fell in love with Berlin and wanted to stay there. And again I had run out of money so I thought, oh yeah, let me do a supper club and let me see how that goes. And then supper clubs were a very new concept in London at the time in the uk but they were brand new in Berlin. Like nobody had heard of a supper.

Yeah.

So there was a lot of.

For those who aren't familiar that are listening, can you explain? I mean you kind of can put it together, the pieces, just hearing what it is. But what is a supper club?

I mean it's a glorified dinner party essentially. But it's taking like a restaurant experience and putting it in your home usually or more usually in London at the time. It was like taking over dead space and turning it into, you know, it became the beginning of the pop up culture where you turn into usable spaces.

Yeah, yeah.

Because the cheap was. The rent was cheap or free because nothing was with the building.

It's not like you're going in taking over pre existing restaurant space. It was Maybe some industrial area that hadn't been used and like it then becomes a destination. People drive there. It's not like people are walking by. You get a ticket, you show up. Is it like you have 12 tickets and everybody's two people. Like you'll go on a date and then like there's six couples who maybe like know each other, don't know each other or what does the makeup of the group look like? It's got to be interesting, dynamic.

Oh, it's great. I used to love it. It was always very random. It was some couple, some groups, some people on their own, which I loved. And I would always orchestrate it so that as much as possible I would try to split people up so that they were sitting next to people they didn't know or in close proximity to strangers basically.

Which initially people don't like. They hate it and then they love it at the end.

And then at the end I used to get so many emails from people like, oh, you know, I found my boyfriend for your supper club. Yeah, you know, we're not great friends now. Thank you so much.

Incredible testimonials.

Yeah, it's a good way to bring people together. Anyway, so I did this in Berlin and so I borrowed a friend's apartment, I borrowed her neighbors chairs and I went to every bar and club and cafe. I told people I'm going to do this club, come, it's going to be fun. One of the people who turned up at that was the editor of TIP Berlin, which is the Berlin equivalent of a timeout kind of thing. I didn't realize that during the event. But a week later when I was back in London after the event, this article had come out reviewing the supper club and my inbox was full of Germans trying to book for the next event which didn't exist obviously. So then I was like, oh great, that's the reason to keep going back to Berlin. Which is why then. So I was just doing supper clubs between Berlin and London and at the end of the MA I decided to move to Berlin and I took a kitchen residency in Neukron at the Werkstadt Kultscherne. And then this other phenomenon happened where loads of German press descended on this residency for the duration. So I was constantly in the German media and at the same time loads of blogs in London and tabloids were picking up the, you know, the UK stuff. But I was still determined to be a writer and I was trying to have my bohemian writer life in Berlin with cooking being the side hustle. Very quickly it became apparent that, you know, I was getting booked for catering gigs, I was getting booked for more and more things in London. So I thought, well, this is. I had to just stop and be like, what's happening here? The universe is obviously.

Yeah, there's some. There's something happening. Yeah.

So I packed up and went back to London and that's when I decided to brand it Zoe's Ghana Kitchen. Previously to that, it just been Ghana Kitchen.

Yeah.

And I created the mission statement of bringing African food to the masses, which 12 years ago, the language was fine. I think I probably wouldn't use that same language now because, like, what does the masses mean? Who are they?

Sure, sure.

But, yeah, at the time, the masses were people in the diaspora, of the diaspora, and anyone who is interested in finding out more about the food. So it was really about trying to break down a lot of stereotypes around what, you know, West African or African food. And quote marks was because I had used. I used to get these ridiculous comments like, oh, I thought you just ate bush meat or don't you? Yeah. And, yeah, don't you eat gorillas hands? Isn't that what you eat?

Yeah, yeah. Is that somebody? Did somebody actually say that?

Oh, for sure, yeah. And just, you know, this conception that it was really unhealthy, this. There's lots of negative stereotypes whirling around. And while there were mom and pop shops in London and plenty of restaurants that existed doing this, I wasn't the first to cook West African food. Obviously, you know, they were very a. They were very much places for people in the community which was great and needed and welcome, but they weren't inviting necessarily for people who weren't outside of that community. So I was just bridging this between what is contemporary dining in London and what is Ghanaian food, and how do you introduce it to people in a way that keeps it. Keeps it solid, but allows it to merge with this new kind of idea? And then over time, it extrapolated again to just being contemporary West African cuisine. And I was one of the first, if not the first sort of modern, contemporary West African food concepts in the uk. And so that's why I got a lot of traction of that. So when I talked about starting a revolution, it was. I was trying to manifest that. Right. Because having had a background in PR and marketing and journalism myself prior to this, I understood the power of media and the power of narrative and how important it was to have control of that. So. And also I didn't want to be in isolation in what I was doing. So I spoke of it as a much bigger vision in order to encourage people to come into that vision and share in it. And you know, over time that did happen. And then I spoke of, you know, the revolution then becoming a movement once more. People started doing, yeah, pre West African cuisine, which they did pretty quickly. So within three or four years following that, there was a hell of a lot of new concepts and supper club scene in the pop up scene, in the street food scene. And at this point now, at least in the uk, I mean it's, it's very much a well established cuisine in London. Like West African food is definitely on the map, whether I'm there or not. And you know, that was always the point. Really.

What is that, what is that like for you to look at the impact that you had on that as a cuisine and the impact of it? And I think also of you have an Instagram video that does a great job talking through the difference between appropriation and appreciation. Did you. Could you explain a little bit about that and could you talk about how you were maybe able to observe that as you started to see some of the ripple effects of you maybe leading this movement?

Well, do you know what, in terms of cultural appropriation, appreciation, people don't know this, but really where my obsession with this question stems from my own, I'm gonna say with confusion, right. Because when I started Ghana Kitchen, I was very cognizant of the fact that I didn't want to be perceived as appropriating the culture from which I'm from. That was really, really important to me. Like, I didn't want Ghanaians to think I was bastardizing it. I didn't want. I also didn't want people to think that I was representing Ghanaian food on. Sure, you know, carte blanche kind of thing. You know, it was. And that is specifically why I called it Zoe's Ghana Kitchen. Sure. To really pull it to me, it's like, this is my relationship.

Yeah.

This is my story as regards versus.

Like the Ghana Kitchen. Like Capital tv. Yeah. Yeah.

And what happened is over time and it's also important to know that I had nothing to do with a food scene. Right. I didn't come. I never worked in a restaurant. I wasn't culinary trained. So that world was outside of me. And I was very much in my bubble making food. I love to make, playing with flavors and ingredients for the passion and for the play and for the love. Right. So I was very much outside of an industry that likes to label and other and do all of these things. But I was cognizant that it was there, there in terms of how I spoke about my own stuff. And the more, like, especially once the cookbook came out in 2017 and leading up to that, and the more I was integrated into that food scene culture, the more horrified I became by the cultural appropriation. Consistently, just consistently smothering me. Like, I couldn't believe how many people thought it was okay to start a Thai street food store when they had nothing to do with the culture or a Vietnamese or, you know, all of these cultures were being appropriated by middle class, rich white men. And a lot of the time without any authenticity behind what they were doing. So they were doing a very bad translation of the cuisine, but making a lot of money doing it right. And it just became increasingly more alarming to me that that was the thing that was happening. So to bring it back to that video in recent years. So my focus shifted from, you know, pioneering West African food and flavors for, let's say, the first eight, nine years, what I was doing to now the last three or four years, my focus has been on this idea of decolonizing the food industry and making people understand what cultural appropriation is and does and the negative effect it has on the culture, both from a wealth building perspective and from an equitable perspective in terms of who gets congratulated for what and what that reward means. And, you know, just in looking at the whole food chain and the whole food system and who benefits out of this. And usually it's not black or brown people, and it's because of cultural appropriation. And so the difference is, you know, and I should also point out there is a. Have an anecdote here which highlights, like, my involvement in appropriation, if you like, for one of some better words, whereas I was taking a taxi one time and the driver was a Ghanaian man. And we were having a chat, as you want to do with your taxi driver. You don't want to. You have to. And, you know, I was telling him what. He asked me what I did for a living. I said, I'm a cook. I'm a chef. And then he heard I was Ghanaian. And then he realized I was the Zoe from Zoe's Ghana Kitchen, which he heard of. And he pulled over, he was like. He's like. He couldn't believe it that I was in his car.

Yeah, yeah.

I thought, oh, he's a fan. This is nice. He pulled over the car and he showed me a WhatsApp message group that he was on before he Got into the. Before I got into his car.

Yeah.

And it's basically this big discussion between a load of Ghanaians and Ghana about me and about Zoe's Ghana kitchen and about the cookbook and basically questioning whether I had the right to, you know, whether it was good or bad, what I was doing for the cuisine. Like, there was a whole thing about it.

Yeah, yeah.

Then I had to have a big conversation with him about, you know, what my purpose was and what I'm doing. And, you know, I'm trying to bring the culture some love and light, not rip it off kind of thing.

Yeah.

So just so that people know that. I guess what my point is is that it is possible to be considered within your culture as appropriate in your culture, which is what I. Exactly what I was scared of at the beginning.

Right, sure. Yeah. Right, right.

I'm just putting my hands up to say that I am not without being a target for that accusation.

Yeah. What was that like for you did that experience? It feels like that would be the kind of thing where you. When you stepped into the taxi versus when you stepped out of the taxi, where your mind is. Is like a completely separate place.

Yeah. I mean, it was interesting. It was funny mostly, to be honest. But, you know, I convinced him of my argument, to be honest. He was already on my side. I think people in the group who were a bit.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But, you know, so there's purists in any culture, you'll have purists who will say that, you know, this isn't Ghanaian food, or this is X, this is Y. It's a very complex field to negotiate, but there. There are some basic rules that I think should stand as regards identifying appropriation versus appreciation. And when you are appreciating a culture, you're not claiming it as your own if it's not your own. Right. So you're signposting where you've got these recipes from. You're signposting what the mother recipe is. If you're changing it, you're honoring the people that created it or produced it, who gave you the knowledge to be able to pass it on. It's really about respect for where the food comes from or the recipe comes from in the first place. And then it's about. If you want to monetize that. It's about ensuring that at some point in the monetization process, there's somebody involved in the culture who gets to benefit from it equally, because it's not okay otherwise. It's tantamount to, like, colonialism. And just going somewhere and taking everything that's good, which still goes on in Africa. Honestly, there's a huge Chinese influence there right now, where there's a lot of colonization going on, frankly. But, you know, appropriation is, I went to, I'm sorry to use Thailand consistently as an example. It's just a really good example, you know. Yeah, people go to the Far east, they go to Southeast Asia, they have a two week holiday, they taste some delicious lapsang or they taste, you know, whatever it is, and they're like, that's amazing. I can make this and I'm gonna start a food business. Right. And they'll come back and that's what they'll do. But they won't necessarily learn how to make it from the right person. They won't hire any people from the culture in relation to producing that. They won't reference anything about the culture properly. And more often than not, they will bastardize the recipes to make them palatable to, you know, where they're serving it. And the same thing happens with cookbooks a lot. You know, it's like people go on holiday for two weeks when they've got nothing to do with the culture and come back and write a cookbook about the culture. It's like if black and brown people don't have that privilege. So if we don't have that privilege, can you leave our culture alone and let us be the ones to talk about it and write about it and sell the food and monetize it kind of thing? Anyway, you know, I go, I bang on about cultural appropriation a lot. Google me and cultural appropriation. There's plenty out there.

Well, it's good. And it was one of the reasons why, you know, Alexa and our team reached out and shared that video with me. She said, I think this would be a really good conversation. Cause it's really applicable obviously to the food world, other worlds as well.

Yeah.

At a conversation. I don't remember what episode this was, but if people follow along with the podcast with Marcus Samuelson, fellow New Yorker, and he drew analogies to music, like in that world, and how music as an art form, much like food is an art form, it's, you know, there's a lot of analogies that can exist within there and folks can check out that podcast episode as well to hear his thoughts on it.

Like in, in 2010.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Yep.

Another example, I remember saying in 2010 that they've already, they've already started appropriating the music. This is when like Afrobeats and High life started coming into mainstream pop. Pop in Europe in a significant way. And also in fashion, you would see a lot of traditional. I can't name all the different types of fabrics, so I'm going to use the shorthand of African fabric because each tribe has their own. In Ghana, we have kente is like the big tribal fabric. But, you know, you would see a lot of those patterns coming into commercial big stores, like your primarks and your hennies and your, you know, big stores. And so I. I made a point of saying at the time, you know, and that's what happens with food. It's usually the music, the fashion, and then the food that cross over kind of in that order.

But music first, then fashion, then food.

Yeah. And then. But usually when it. The people. When it's the original people making it. So, you know, young African musicians or young African designers, they don't get to benefit from the mass appropriation of it because it's stolen. It's. The beats are stolen. There's no credit given the fast idea of the print is stolen and there's no credit.

Yeah. And they're not going to be able to call their attorney and say. Yeah.

And the same thing happens. Just recently, Tom Kerridge just put out a recipe for Suya kebabs. And it's like, why. Why is Tom Kerridge being out a recipe for Suya kebabs? That's way out of his field of interest or influence.

Yeah.

He shouldn't have any hands on that whatsoever. And if the program that allowed him to do that wants to profile West African food, they should pick a West African chef to do it. I mean, I feel very strongly about that. It's got. He's got no business putting out that kind of recipe because he didn't even credit where he got it from.

Sure.

He didn't invent it, did he? He didn't make it.

Right, right. It's like, yeah.

Where did you get that?

Right, right. Do you. Do you have examples of whether it's individuals or companies that you've run into and you're like, yes, like, doing this? Well, does that exist or not really?

I mean, it's very rare, honestly. Like, there's a brand in the States called Trimminga, and they have, like. They're a married couple, so it's a bit different. So it's led by a white woman and her partner, who is an African man, I believe, based in Kenya. I think he's Kenyan.

Okay.

So it is slightly different, but, you know, I think they do a good job of making sure that this white woman isn't the face of the brand, for example, and that they're telling the story of all the people who work to make those products. And they are amazing products.

What kind of products?

So it's basically different extrapolations of moringa. So moringa is a superfood. It's usually consumed as, you know, like a very high antioxidant, vitamin packed ingredient for lots of health benefits, usually consumed in powder form. Then maybe you drink it as a tea or something like that. But you can get, from moringa, you can get oils and you can use the fibers that it's one of those plants like okra or hibiscus, where the whole plant has many, many uses. And so they have products like moringa based skin care range, Moringa oil, Moringa body scrubs, things like that. But I'm not sure it really falls sensibly into this category. The question is like, is anyone doing it? Well, I think nobody can do cultural appropriation. Well, sure, yeah, that's the thing. The way that you can, if, if your company is culturally appropriating, the way that you can change the sting of that is, as I say, bring in talent, whether it's consulting or marketing or it's like, who are you using to translate the story behind the brand or ingredient or whatever? How are you doing it? Who are you doing it to? It's very much about the lens and the gaze. What we have to get away from is this kind of white gaze that tells a very restrictive, usually story and more often than not others, the community which it's financially benefiting from. So it's more about that. It's like, who's on your. If you are a white finance company, there's nothing wrong with white people's money. Obviously they have more of it than usually.

Sure.

Then who's fronting the brand? Who is telling the story of the brand? Who's making the leadership decisions? Who's hiring? Who are you hiring?

Yeah.

And you know how. How are you creating a truly diverse and equitable system where somebody from the culture benefits?

Yeah. And I think that's kind of getting at the question. Maybe for people who are listening to the podcast and they think understanding the category of like, this is something that you shouldn't do. To your point, like can't do cultural appropriation. Well, like, it's just like that doesn't exist proactively, then what does it look like to do things? And for people who are asking that question, who are Listening. You spoke to that a little bit. Like to think strategically about kind of what it looks like to fold in strong representation of different people. So it's not like, you know, if you have a finance company that it's not all 30 something white guys. You know, it's like if I reached out to my Twin Cities, Minnesota network of friends, like that's probably what it would look like. So how do I think strategically and be proactive if that's something that I want to do of, of looking, considering that and making that a priority. Do you have other thoughts for people who are in the category of hey, I'm listening to this, I want to not only not do wrong, but I want to do right and to do good. What does that look like? Does that question make sense or kind? I mean, a basic example would be like supporting businesses who are, you know, the, the creator and the owner is aligned with and connected to like the food that they're creating, you know, like versus some random Thai place in that it doesn't have that connection. Like a Thai family as an example to use the Thai, hey, go to that Thai restaurant from a Thai family who just immigrated. Other ideas of, for people who are like, I'm passionate about this, I want to join in this movement. How do, how do we do that?

Yeah, I mean, the consumer has some purchasing power, right? So if, if enough people start interrogating who, who they're buying from and is it appropriate to buy this from there? So I know that's quite a lot to put on a consumer. I mean, you think about people like Trader Joe's, right? You go into Trader Joe's and Trader Joe's make good stuff, right? They make good food with ingredients from all over the world, Right. Does anybody at Trader Joe's necessarily have anything to do with that? Probably not, but they put out plantain chips, they'll put out various things from all over the world. So yeah, the question is if you really want to eat, plan, change ships, maybe you should look up Sun Mo Foods or maybe you should look up another brand like a Sankofa Snacks, right? Who from the culture makes this product? Because it's probably going to be better, honestly. And also, you know that then you know, you're supporting the culture from where the food comes from. And there's not just one person making plantain chips, there's hundreds these days and many of them are black owned businesses. So I think that's the thing is like, if you, whether it's, you know, South Asian food or Indian food, or any food from the African continent. It's like, just look at the label. Like, where is it made? Who, who's making it? And are they from the culture or are they ripping the culture off? Because it might. Yeah, yeah. If they're not from the culture, then they're ripping the culture off, really.

It's interesting. We did a team event with a chocolate maker in Jamaica and he was talking about the four really like the four chocolate companies and the disconnect that exists between where the cocoa is harvested and when it's like actually then sold and like Target, you know, and it's like, wow, you can start to understand that as why it's important, the significance of buying. Like trying to understand where you're buying from and getting as close to the source as possible. Would that be an accurate way to describe it?

That would be a really great way to describe, describe it. And cocoa is a great example because, for example, Ghana makes, I don't know, something like 80 or 90% of the. The cocoa products in Europe are used Ghana and cocoa. However, because it's not. The facilities aren't yet in Ghana to process that chocolate. Right. Because the money isn't there within the indigenous community to. And maybe the knowledge is well yet, but it is happening soon, I hope. Process that cocoa into consumer bars. So, you know, they ship out the cocoa, it goes to Belgium, it goes to France, it goes everywhere. It goes to America as well, to be honest. And then it's sold back to Ghana in bars that people can't afford. Nobody can afford to buy those bars of chocolate. And it's their cocoa, which is. Yeah, yeah, just insane. You know, like that's part of the problem. It's like. And again, you know, this isn't. I'm not trying to say that consumers, you're bad people for not knowing this stuff and you're not bad people for making better choices. But there is an opportunity now and there is some responsibility to educate yourself because it's also about sustainability. You know, it all contributes at the intersection of sustainability and what is, how do we all survive and thrive in this world, right. With as much equity and equality built into it as possible. And it's not any longer okay for big white conglomerates to be the only people benefiting from tech, finance and, you know, mass marketing, consumerism, especially when they're doing it in a way that.

As.

I said before, others or diminishes the communities and cultures from which they're. They're making that capital benefit. You know, capitalism doesn't have to be a bad, dirty thing, but it certainly needs to be done better. And also, you know, there's lots and lots of brands. Now look at Diaspora company. I think most brands these days will wear their mission on their sleeve if they, you know, look at Burlap and Barrel in New York and which is a white owned company, but it's selling spices from around the world. But what they. In fact, there's your example because you asked for one Burlap and Barrel, because.

What they do as a, as a company who you'd say, hey, look at this as an example. Maybe not everything right, But a lot of things, right?

Well, they're very sensitive about telling the story of the people in the places where the ingredients come from. And it's not like, hi, I'm a white guy and I found the best X ingredient, this chili in the world. Like, no, you didn't. You hired somebody to help you and they're honest about that, you know, and I think you, you as a consumer, if you go to a website and they're telling you that if they're telling you we work in partnership with this farm and we do this to ensure these fair wages and you know, we have a very short, transparent supply chain. And if you see words like that on the website, that's, that's, that, that should encourage you to want to purchase from that company because there is a value chain there. Like, you know, that, you know that there's responsibility being taken along the supply chain for making sure that people are getting paid properly and also that people are getting recognition for what they contribute to, to that ingredient being on the shelf at the end of the day. And I think that's what's missing, notably missing from a lot of large companies is, you know, the same companies that would put up black squares doing Black Lives Matter a year later, what have they done to change their policies around anything as regards diversity and equity, inclusion, stuff like that? Not very much, honestly. So there's a lot of virtue signaling that goes on. And I think that's the hard piece for consumers to navigate, but it is, there is a small responsibility on us as people who purchase things to be mindful of that, you know, and it's complicated with restaurants in particular, because.

Sure.

You know, there also comes a point like who owns this cuisine anymore? And like what? Because so much, especially in America, so much cuisine is beyond fusion, right? Because.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Especially when you think of the east coast, like in New York, there's so many restaurants where you can eat ingredients from all over the world on one menu. I recently, just in. I want to rewrite an article about this particular thing, actually. So you're getting a sneak peek into this, but.

All right, good preview.

I went to a restaurant in Asheville recently, the name of which sounds Japanese, but it's actually Native American. And the. The strap line for the restaurant says Japanese smokehouse, but it's not a smokehouse. Sure, right. And the menu, which was incredible, I have to say, first and foremost, everything on the menu was stunning. Like, wait, the taste, the flavor, the presentation, execution was brilliant, but it wasn't. There was Japanese ingredients involved in most of the dishes, but it wasn't Japanese food, and it wasn't Japanese street food, which is the other thing they're calling it influenced by Japanese street. So. And then I found out that there's no Japanese person working in the kitchen. However, you know, the chefs that have been hired to deliver that menu have experience of working in Asia at length for some time. So it's complicated, right? Like, yeah, what do we.

There's not. It's not black and white. Clear. Yeah. Line.

Yeah, yeah, black and white. But what I can say is, like, while the food was absolutely stunning, and I would recommend anyone to go there, you know, I do take issue with the name. I do take issue with how they're describing the menu, and I do take you with the fact that it is cultural appropriation. And, you know, even the point was made that the owner had never. The owner has a bit of an empire around the concept of Japanese food. Right. Not just this one place. And there was almost like this braggadocious element to him being like, I've never been to Japan. You know, it's like, I just wonder, like, what the thinking is behind that. It's like, why wouldn't you hire a Japanese chef if you're so focused on that? Like, what is it that stops you from enabling the community to participate in it? You know, it's curious to me and.

To your point, it seems like that more than important beyond anything, is to understand and consider and to know that there will never probably be an instance where you'll be able to say, hey, this checks every single box. And there might be some instances of that, but it sounds like there's a spectrum. And what you realize is that spectrum can shift from either extreme and to be aware of it for people who aren't. And I think it's a huge part of this conversation is introducing that awareness level for people who maybe weren't aware at all or were Aware, but not really, and maybe hopefully leveling that up a little bit. One of the things I'm interested in with your story is it seems like there's kind of been an evolution around the work that you're doing where it's entrepreneurial, it's, you know, food focused. You've written your book, I wish you pre ordered. We can do a little shout out. So I pre ordered your book and we can do that on Amazon and would encourage other people to do that as well. But how much of your work has kind of also folded in like activism around it? And how have you balanced that as. As an important piece of what you do along with telling the story of your story, the story of Ghana to an extent, in the story of African foods?

Yeah, activism is a clumsy handle for me because, you know, I have called myself an activist before and then afterwards been like, you're not an activist. You know what I mean? Like, I feel like activism, really true activism, really demand. It's like a vocation and it's something that people, and there are so many amazing humans in the world who are very much ingrained in activism. And activism for me means really is doing right. It's not walking active.

It's like the word. Yeah, the root word, very much doing.

And doing it as a grind on a daily basis. It's part of your existence, really. All that is to say though, that, you know, activism is rooted within me in the sense that because of my circumstance, because of my identity, because I am, I was a third culture kid born to two immigrants in a working class environment in a country that, where people like that don't do well, so that you're almost born into the politics of identity, you know, so it's always just been inherently in me, like social justice, criminal justice.

It's your lip because it's your lived experience.

It's my lived experience. Right. So I've experienced all of these and I'm gay and you know, yada yada. So I've been marginalized so many times throughout my life and lay it upon, and lay upon with that marginalization, I have something to say about all of those things because, yeah, it's my lived experience. So it's kind of, it's not that I have to weave it in. It just is like, it just is right who I am and it's part of how I, how I show up in the world. And it's in, it's in every meal I make, it's in every conversation I have, and it's in Every interview I do.

So whether you'd like it or not, probably like it just is.

Yeah, she can't help it.

Yeah. Right. And how your lived experience with, you know, talking through all the elements of your story, how the contrast between my lived experience as a 30 something year old white guy growing up in Minnesota, like those conceptually, well, I can look at that and say, yes, these make sense. I'm behind these things. What that feels like, I would assume for you is just so different because I haven't bumped into walls in the same way or hit ceilings in the same way. And what I hear you saying, let me know if this resonates, is like you have no choice but to be an activist because that's what you've experienced growing up.

Well, yeah, essentially. I mean, it's weird. Again, the word is feels clumsy, but it's like it's just very much ingrained in my identity. As much as being Ghanaian is, as much as being Irish is, as much as being lesbian is like all of these parts of me are folded into each other to make who I am. So it's not. I can't take any of it out. So when I see an injustice, when I hear an injustice, I just naturally, it's what I want to stop. Like I don't even know how to explain it beyond that, to be honest. It's inherently part of my disposition. Yeah.

And this is another shameless plug for the book. Is that something that will exist within the book? So if people pre order that they look at that, will your story, my guess being that Zoe's got a kitchen, will be a part of that. What does that look like in terms of your story and the food and to kind of put a bookend on the conversation. How does Zoe and Ghana come together within the book or within your work to kind of create kind of the harmony of that existence? Zoe's Ghana kitchen. What does that look like? And if people order that, what will they see? And what can they expect when they see that?

Wow, that's a big question. Yes. So what I will say is it's also worth bearing in mind that I wrote this book initially in. So I was, I was writing this in 2014, 2015, because publication got delayed for a year.

Sure. And this is a, this new one is a technically a re release.

Right. The image, the original version was 2014, 2015, at a time when I was probably a little more naive as a person. Again, very new to this food scene, world, industry. Also at a time where I was much more capable of being influenced by the publisher and influenced by people around me in terms of what couldn't, couldn't potentially go into that book. Not that there was any. I'm not saying that anyone said, you can't write about this or you can't write about that, but also, I'm an intelligent woman, more than one degree so on things. And also, you know, I think at the time I was very, very conscious of the white gaze and I was very conscious of the fact that probably the biggest audience for the book would be white middle class people. Because at the time, you know, there wasn't really, as I say, I was at the forefront of, in air quotes, this revolution. Right. So there was still some work to do in convincing Africans to spend money on learning about their own food and their own ingredient.

Sure, yeah. It's an interesting point when you say that. It's like, oh, interesting. Yeah, yeah.

And so I was very much writing with all of this in mind. That's it. So when it came to the recipes in the first edition, it was very restrictive for me because I had to make a lot of substitutions. I had to be mindful of who, you know, the tone was, having to guide people through, you know, the basics. And that's why there's a, there's a soup.

It seems like it would be really hard. It seems like a really hard thing to do.

It wasn't easy, I'll tell you. But what it meant was I did a re. You know, I wanted the book to be a resource. So there was a very, very sort of dense section of what the ingredients are, what the flavors are. What, like a, like a reference tool. Right. So that people get to understand the ingredients and as much as play with the recipes. And I really did want people to play with the recipes because I think when you're cooking at home, you need to be able to explore with what you've got and not. It shouldn't be too restrictive and regimental. Right. So the recipes, you know, some of them are very traditional, but the majority are my extrapolation or my playfulness or my creativity with the ingredients. But the spine of the book is my story. Like it's, There's a lot of me in it. It's a lot of, you know, I have anecdotes from my troubles around Ghana. I have anecdotes with my family. Like there's funny moments around food with my family, like going to market or first time I made them dinner and they didn't know that I cooked for a living.

Yeah.

And you know, and in the introduction, the original introduction, it was very much that I needed people to know that I didn't grow up with loads of African aunties around me or at my grandmother's bib. Right. That wasn't my experience. I didn't come to this book with that experience. So. So there's a lot of explanation of who I am, my identity, and it's very anecdotal in that way. I wouldn't call it a memoir, but there is a lot of me in it, and then there's bringing the culture in. So there's playlists, right. I created playlists from Spotify To Cook too, and to eat.

Yeah, I saw. I saw that when I was looking at it, which will link to those.

And all that stuff is still in there. In the new edition, however, which is what I'm most excited about by this edition, actually, is that I got the opportunity to go back over and recalibrate, let's say, quite a lot of the recipes. So I updated about 70 of the recipes to go back to how I would originally wanted them to be in the book. Not to say that people can't still substitute. If they want to, they can. But I want the original ingredients to be in there because they are now available through my shop, at least. And if not through, there's many, many other, like Essie Spicy and other Bloom, especially in the States, it's much more easier for people to get hold of those ingredients, and I really wanted them to be able to have to be able to taste it proper, as we say.

Proper.

Yeah, I'm excited about it. It's. You know, that book was an absolute labor of love, honestly. I was writing it at the time that, you know, I just opened my restaurant in Brixton at the time. So I was working 16 hours a day and then coming home, eating whatever I could smash into my face, and then staying up till three in the morning to write. It was very intense. It certainly wasn't an experience I got to really enjoy. You know, when they.

Which I think is when I hear people talk about cookbooks, it's usually like, this wasn't like I really. This wasn't like going to the movies. It was like.

It was intense and stressful, but fun. And, you know, I think, and I hope that the book really marries the whole idea of it. It's, you know, the original Steadfast was traditional recipes remixed for the modern kitchen. And that's what I want to be is like this homage to tradition, but also letting people know you can still have these ingredients and flavors in these other ways that may be less time consuming and maybe a little bit more healthy and, you know.

Yeah.

So I hope it does all of those things. I think that it's got something for everybody in there. For the beginner, for the person who doesn't like heat, for the person who loves heat. There's a big cheat sheet in there as well that I recommend people start with because like, once you make up all the spice blends and maybe make yourself up some chalet sauce and things like, it makes everything else a lot easier.

Sure. That's wonderful. We'll link to that in the show notes. Like I said, we have a pre order copy coming. The re release comes out in October. Is that right?

Yeah.

Okay. And you can pre order now and we'll be sure to do that and encourage folks to do it. Zoe, it was so wonderful to talk to you. Thanks for coming on the podcast for sharing your story. For those who want to follow along more with what you're up to, what's the best way to do that?

Oh, yes. Please visit social media. I'm on social media at Zoe Ajonya A D J O N Y O H and Ghana Kitchen is at Garner Kitchen. I have a podcast called Cooking Up Consciousness. Please check that out@zoeajonya.com and yeah, that's about it. Most of what I get up to is on Instagram. I probably post too much. Honestly, my wife.

It's always nice to have that spousal feedback on your social media tendencies. Well, that's great. And we'll look to those in the show notes as well. Zoe, thanks so much for coming on.

Thank you so much for having me. It's a lovely conversation.

That's a wrap for this episode. Another big thank you to Zoe for coming on and sharing her story and some frameworks. Some, some, some ways that we can be thinking about food recipes and honoring the origin of those recipes and not only being aware of that, but also being intentional with that. So another big thank you to Zoe for coming on. We'll link to Zoe's Kind of Kitchen, the new release of that in the show notes. But you can also check out your local bookstore or go to Amazon and search as always, Ghana Kitchen to see where you can order that or pre order that, depending on when you listen to this podcast. And as a reminder, if you do not yet follow Food Blogger Pro podcast, go ahead, hit subscribe. Follow along with what we're up to in any podcast app. You can subscribe or follow. It's free. And we are here every week putting out content to help you get a tiny bit better. Every day forever. Until next week. Hope you have a great day. Make it a great week, and we'll see you then.

Thanks.

Sam.