366: How Rob and Jen Morris Teach Home Bakers How to Start a Successful Bakery Business

This episode is sponsored by our sister site, Clarity. C L A R I T I is how you spell clarity. All different iterations of how people say it, but it's clarity because it helps you to be clear on what it is that you need to be working on and really gives you direction around how you can go around improving and updating and tracking the content on your blog. We built it because we had been managing everything in a spreadsheet. So my guess is there's two people listening to this podcast. One would be you are people who track stuff, then you probably track it in a spreadsheet. Maybe airtable, maybe notion. And my guess is it's a lot of manual work. There's another group of people who just aren't tracking anything. And that's okay, you'll get there eventually. But Clarity is going to be the tool that's going to allow you to do that more easily. It's going to allow you to not spend as much manual time doing the tracking, updating, improving and just generally understanding the lay of the land with your content. And one of the things that I think is most important a lot of times we talk about hiring on this podcast, but one of the things we don't talk about enough, and I probably should talk about it more, is some of the first positions you should hire for are software. It's not an actual person. You're hiring software to come in and to do a lot of the work that you are doing. And that's what Clarity is for us. As the pinch of Yum Team Food Blocker Pro team. We use Clarity to take manual work away from our day to day tasks and we automate that. It's one of the easiest ways to have your first hire. So if you're thinking, oh, you know, I hear people talk about hiring a lot. 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So when I say you can, you know, think of hiring clarity at $25 a month as a little, like, team member who's in the background working for you, that deal's not going to last forever. We're just wanting to get to our first 500 users as we're in the early stages with this. You'll still get a lot of value out of it. But the great thing is, as the value within Clarity increases, as we build out more features, as we build out more functionality, you will be locked in at that $25 price as a thank you for signing up early, for getting, for being somebody who's using the tool early on, giving us feedback. So thank you to Clarity for sponsoring this episode. Hello. Hello. This is the Food Blogger Pro podcast. My name is Bjork Ostrom. We do this podcast for people who are publishers, creators, influencers, people who are creating content online. And usually not always, but usually those people are in the space of recipes or food. But we do have people who are in other niches and other worlds who are interested in business, business best practices, and we welcome them as well. Just the other day, I had a conversation with somebody in our community, like our little literal community here in Minnesota, and he does car restorations. And he was like, I occasionally listen to the podcast, which is so cool to hear. And he's like, yeah, it kind of applies to, like, other industries as well, which is really true. But our specific niche is food folks. But we also find that, hey, we get some car folks, some home folks, and my dad as well. He's the other one, pottery folks. He makes pottery and listens to the podcast. But today's interview is with Rob and Jen Morris. We had a conversation with them. This was pre Covid and this was before the world that we know. And they talked about what it was like to run a cupcake business, a brick and mortar cupcake business that they had run for years and years, had been really successful with it. And in this interview, we're going to talk about a pivot that they've made and how they are now working with other business owners to help kind of guide them along the way and to teach them the things that they've learned so they've shifted into this world of education, but they're using their years, their decades of experience owning a bakery to educate other people on best practices on what you can be doing if you want to create a brick and mortar physical location or a kind of a cottage industry type location to sell goods. And they help people do that. So not only are we going to talk about their transition, what that was like, and how they pivoted their business successfully, but we're also going to be talking about best practices for anybody who's interested in creating some type of physical store or some type of business that sells physical goods or consumables and all the ins and outs that go into that. So I think you'll enjoy the conversation, not only from a business owner perspective, but also also for anybody who's ever dabbled with or thought about potentially selling their own recipes or opening a restaurant or bakery, they're going to have a lot of insight on that. So let's go ahead and jump in. Rob and Jen, welcome back to the podcast.

Thanks for having us again. We're so glad to be here.

So excited. Last time we chatted, for those who want to check that interview out, was 2019, March of 2019, and what a different life we were living, all of us, right before we knew the reality of global pandemics and everything else that's happened within the last few years. But there's also been a lot that's happening in your lives and in your businesses. So at that point in 2019, could you roll the tape back, Jen, and tell us a little bit about what your day to day was like and then you can talk about the transition that you guys have gone through within the last couple of years.

Yeah, sure. 2019 BC, right?

The new BC. Exactly.

Before COVID Yeah. So 2019, I think we were in, we were already in a mindset shift in our business. So before the whole world had to make a pivot, we were already taking these steps internally first to make a pivot. We were at the point where we were at a crossroads. You know, it's time to level up. It's time to, to grow. Right. It's time to make this transition. So what does that look like for us? Does that look like more stores? Does that look like, you know, franchising? We were thinking about franchising. Does that, what does that look like? But at that time, we already began coaching. So throughout our whole entire journey as bakery owners, people have been coming in, you know, we're watching your journey. How do you do this you know, I mean, teach us, you know, and I would do my best and he would his best to go in the back and, you know, just talk to people on the phone quietly, things like that. But we knew that that wasn't really helping them. So they needed more than advice, you know, anybody in the food service industry. Bakers, we had treat makers coming in. We had people who wanted to open up, you know, not necessarily restaurants, but takeout spots, you know, food trucks, tacos, burgers, you know, loaded fries, anything. And we knew they needed something. They needed more of a step by step more than what we could give them verbally while we were still working our business. So we just got to the point where, all right, let's try this. Things are moving online. Let's try this digital world. And we were already familiar with that, with the food blog, right. Loving from the Oven blog. So we were already familiar with that. So we decided to put out an ebook, a step by step ebook. And it was for a general business, retail business, right. That became popular, that was called Think Like a CEO. And then we decided to make one specifically for bakers. Think Like a CEO, and we call it Bakery Edition. And that group to end up being like the number one business ebook for bakers online. And it literally gives them the step by step, something quick, no fluff, easily digestible. And then it just grew from there. And then we figured, all right, maybe this is something with our kids transitioning, you know, they're becoming younger adults, you know, and they're going to need us in a different way. And then that's when Covid hit. And then we just decided kind of to just uproot our life. We moved to a different state, a state that we didn't know a soul in. And we just needed a total change. So where.

Where was. So it sounds like there's a lot of different variables. Covid. Covid being one of them, you know, moving kids, obviously. You know, I. A lot of the decision making that I make in my life now is like around our two daughters. And what does it look like if I'm going to work more, what does that mean for them? It means probably that I'll see them less. Or in your case, my guess is like, if you're going to start an additional location, it doesn't mean. Probably doesn't mean that you're going to be home more. It means that you're going to be home less. Yeah. And then moving as well. So, Rob, can you talk about, you know, as you each weighed those different variables, at what point did you say, you know what, it's time to wind down the retail location? And was there any grief or sadness with that, or was it more of relief? Grief or relief?

It was a little bit of both. Because it's hard to let go of something that you been babying for a long time. Having that business is just like having a kid. Nurtured it. You fed it. You made sure that it was changed when it needed to be changed. Yeah, yeah, it was a lot of that. But, you know, also during the transition, just trying to figure out, you know, our audience who needs our help, you know, because we were able to help, like, a lot of different people. Whether you had a food truck, whether you were a retour, a retail store, you were just selling from out of your house. We were able to help so many people. But the problem was, it was so broad, you know.

Sure.

Once we narrowed it down and we said, you know, there's so many bakers out there, and you'd be surprised how many people want to be bakers and they want to open up these stores, you know, so we had to kind of figure out, who are we going to appeal to the most? And it was bakers. So when we came up with that decision, it was. That decision also was like, okay, you know, where are we going to do this at? Are we going to keep the store open? Are we going to let them come in? Are we going to show them, you know, step by step? Are we going to do classes? And we were like, you know, it'd be better if we can just do it online and make a community for everybody to talk amongst each other. Somebody can be in Arkansas, somebody can be in Michigan, and we're all speaking at one time. So that's the way we decided to put it together. And so far, so good. We have so many different clients. They're all over the place, and they really need our help. You know, they need our help.

And.

And we're so happy to give it to him, because with the turn of this century, you know, 22 is something different. You know, college is. It's there, but this is the new college. You know, it's kind of like teaching your family. You know what I mean? You spend a little bit and you get a whole lot. You know what I mean? It's better than spending $100,000 and you get your degree and everything, but now you're like, what am I going to do? Me and my wife just had this conversation the other day. We were saying that, you know, nowadays College is kind of like it's teaching you to be an employee, right?

Yeah, sure.

So we want to teach people how to be entrepreneurs and how to make it so that there's no selling on what you can make. That's our goal.

You know, I think that's great. It's one thing that I see as a through line, like, for people who are entrepreneurial minded, there is this mindset around. You need to go out and figure it out on your own. Right. You're you. College is great. It's a great way to, like, learn how to learn. Excellent. And obviously there's instances where, you know, professions where nursing or you're a doctor or, you know, you definitely want your doctor to go to college. But when you're. When you're an entrepreneur, so much of what you learn is outside of the classroom. And oftentimes the best way to learn entrepreneurial skills, if you don't have any, either doing it yourself or doing it closely with somebody else who has done it before, which it sounds like what you guys are doing, you're able to kind of fast track that. Similar to, like, the hope of Food Blogger Pro is us saying, hey, we've kind of gone through this. Here's some of the things that we've learned over five years that maybe you can learn in five months so you don't have to go about doing that the hard way. But I'm curious to know, when you made that transition. You were a retail shop, retail bakery. You had people who knew you, who loved you, who came to your shop all the time, and then you're transitioning to essentially a new audience. Really, what was it like in those early stages to go out and find other people who were either aspirational in wanting to start a bakery or start a food business or were doing it already and wanted to level up? How did you find those people and kind of build your audience in the early stages?

Let's talk about that. That's a. That's a great question.

For me, because Rob knows I struggled with that York. Like, I struggle so bad, because I'm thinking, all right, we are already popping. We're up here. We're like celebrities, you know, like, we're talented.

Yeah.

You know, everybody knows us. They love us already. I mean, we're talking 11, 12 years, you know, and then I didn't grasp the concept of what you just said. This is a whole new business, a whole new market, a whole new audience that we're servicing. And then when I made that transition, yeah, I have My cupcakeology side, My cupcakeology fan. But then over here, it's like, hey, I'm Ms. Cupcakeology. You need to be lucky that you're learning from me. And they're like, who are you? What are you talking about? Oh, this is a transition, another transitional phase. And I struggled with that because I went from, like I said, being like, celebrity status. I can walk down the street in the store, everybody knows who I am, and to now being essentially a nobody online. And so I had to hire help. I had to hire a coach for me, a mentor for me to help me switch up that mindset, to help me work through those barriers, you know, and to help me realize that I'm more than a baker. I'm more than a food creator. I am someone who has a decade, over a decade of experience, knowledge. And not only that, there are many more facets of me that I've gone through as being a wife, business, as a business owner, a mom, preneur, a homeschool preneur, you know, a writer, a speaker now. And I have many more talents and gifts to share right now than I did 10 years ago or even 5 years ago or even 3 years ago as a bakery store owner. So I needed to work through all of that. I needed to flesh that out and kind of like phase it out. And then he always helps me. He always says, babe, you can speak to more than they. You can speak to all of those different things and really help people coming from different places in their life to go down this one business journey. You know, you can essentially meet many people where they are and help them from there. So it took me a good year. 2021 was an interesting year for me, but it was a year of growth. It was a year of mindset shifting and changing. And now there's something else under my belt because as I've worked through that pivot, now, I can help people make the pivot from, you know, They've been a 9 to 5 worker all their life. They've been used to following directions, and now they're changing into this whole different lifestyle and what that looks like. So I can walk them through the journey. So the Start Small, Win Big Academy is essentially not just step by step into business, but we do a lot of life coaching.

Totally. It feels like a lot of business entrepreneurship or even life is mindset. It's your approach to how you interact with your work, your relationship with your work, your belief in yourself as a entrepreneur. I'm curious to know, Rob, what did you Feel like, were the things that. And you kind of alluded to this a little bit, Jen, which I think is great, because I think a lot of times we come to a new thing and we look at it and we're like, I'm not experienced in this thing. But what you do have experience with is whatever it is that you've been really good at. I think of Lindsay. She had, you know, five, six, seven years as a teacher, and she started to publish recipes online. And it's like, but wait, I'm a teacher. And it's like, whoa, that's actually a great skill in this world. And she would do workshops for people and would teach photography, and she was really skilled at that. For me, you know, we're coming into entrepreneurship, and I'm like, what? I don't have experience with this. I've never worked in a business. It was nonprofit. I worked in nonprofits my entire life. But one of the nonprofits that I worked in, like, we'd go and speak, and we'd be in front of kids, and we'd have to kind of, like, speak off the cuff. And it's like, great, I'll do a podcast like that. That's something that I can do. So what do you feel like were the things as you made this pivot, what were the things that you brought with you that you now see as something, even though it was a new business, that you now see as a valuable asset that you had that you could deploy right away? And then what were the things that you truly had to learn as new endeavors that were like, well, I'm kind of starting from the beginning here and having to learn this.

Well, that's a great question, by the way, too. First of all, you know, we've been doing this for. I've been doing it for at least 12, 14 years, you know, working in the food industry longer. Yeah.

15, 20. Feels like 12.

Yeah.

I always tell my wife, you know, and my kids, I always tell them, you know, that if you want to learn from somebody, then you learn from somebody that does this. Whatever you're trying to learn every single day. Because when you do it every day, that is what makes you a professional, right? Because back in the day, they had internships, and that's how you learn and came up with trades and stuff like that. If you have kids and they go to school, you know, that teacher is. She's a professional. What she does, because she does it every day. If she took a break off for five years, she loses some of that professionalism, right? Or if a. A substitute comes in. Right. We all know what happens when the substitute comes in.

Yeah.

Substitute is not a professional at what she's there for because she doesn't do that every day, at least that class, you know, so if we've been doing this for 12, 14 years, we have everything that you need, you know, so there's not much that we needed to gain except for how to work this computer, you know what I mean? How to advertise a little bit differently, how to use the Facebook ads and Instagram and all that. But we're really keeps you going and keeps you pumping real good, is when you find out that the caliber of people that are coming in, we have teachers, doctors, lawyers, like, they are realizing that there's more out here and that they can actually apply themselves and not have to punch a clock, you know what I mean? So when you get those type of people in and they believe in you and they trust in you with their next endeavor, it's just like, this is it. And you feel confident at what you're teaching, they can always look at your past history and see everything that you did. If you type in cupcakeology, everything comes up, you know, I mean, we have conversations about things that's so off topic all the time. And that's what makes us, you know, that likable couple. It's personable, you know what I mean?

It really is.

At the same time, it is still business because we do get on people when they slack a little bit, because slack is going to get you nowhere. But it's just the computer techy stuff that we had to really learn, you.

Know what I mean?

Like right now our monitor is jumping a little bit, you know what I mean?

Like, yeah, totally. You gotta learn how to do it. Call it. Who is it? Wait a minute, it rings your online. You are it. So you spoke to this a little bit, but back to the audience part, because I think what I love about what you're doing is you found a niche and you went to the niche of baking. You discovered, Wait, like, if we created this ebook, it was great, but we created an ebook that's even more specific around baking and creating a bakery. And that got even more traction because people look at it and they're like, yes, that's me. I want to start a bakery. And that's what I want to. That's my next endeavor. So they know right away it's a good fit for them. But then it's going out and finding that audience and it sounds like, well, to finish that thought. I think what's so great about it is you have this experience, you can teach it, you've created content around it. But then the hard part is then the audience building part. What's been most effective for you to go out and discover where those people are. Because to your point, they could be in Minnesota, they could be in Canada, they could be in California, and the same general information is going to apply and help those people. But the hard part is finding those people. Like, if my cousin loves baking and she wants to start a bakery, you guys would be great to help her. But she doesn't know that you exist and you don't know that she exists. So how do you go out and find those people if you're looking to build an audience and in this case, partner to sell a course or have like train them in a certain skill.

But I'll start. You can finish off first. I want to say get you some young people, you know, get involved with the young people. And you can't do it all by yourself. You know, find you some social media people, some young kids that actually know what they're doing because they know what TikTok is, they know what Instagram is, they know what reels are. There are tons of young entrepreneurs out there that literally they just do social media and they are kings and queens of what they do. They're going to be your bread and butter. That is what advertising is today. Newspapers are dead. You know, knocking on people's doors are dead. That's not going to get you to Minnesota, you know, that'll get you next door. So you get you some young people. Definitely get you some young people. Don't be afraid of the new trends. You know, they do a little dancing here and there and get into that TikTok. That's where your people are. Facebook is the bomb. It really is. Everybody's on it. But you also have to get some culture, like my wife said on how to spend your dollars and budget with that because it's not cheap. That's another big transition that we had to deal with our budget. It's no longer food. That was advertising. You're Talking about almost $100,000 a year on advertising just to bring in what you're trying to bring in. So once you learn that piece of the puzzle, then this becomes a little bit more easier.

Yeah, I think what works for us a lot, and thank God we started doing it beforehand with the actual storefront, is Facebook ads. And Facebook is my nemesis.

Yeah, you and many others. Yeah.

They went through a lot of changes themselves. Right. So you know what used to work in Facebook ads? I had to relearn it all over again just like that.

Yeah.

To not lose my advertising dollars, you know, to not waste it. So what works for us is still the Facebook ads, because even though they don't work like they used to, down to the very penny. However, without it, like you said, if you had your sister in Minnesota and we're here in South Jersey, you know, I'm really going to have to work really hard on social media every minute of my day in order to reach her. But then still, Facebook ads works in that way. But along with that, before, I could just rely on that, now I have to do Facebook ads. Plus I still have to do social media, which I don't like to do too much, but I heavily rely a lot on SEO. And I learned about SEO from, first of all, Food Blogger Pro. Okay, so I'm just going to plug that in there right now. Because binging your podcast, and then we talked about that last podcast, and binging on that has taught me how to really. Food blogging was our introduction to the Internet world, to making money on the Internet. To be quite honest, I never would have went down that rabbit hole if I didn't find your podcast. To learn about food blogging, to do food blogging, to then learn about all the other different income streams that I can have and apply to online. So learning SEO and then learning how to really put those keywords in, really get into the psychological of our customers, like, what are their pain points, what are they feeling? And then I can relate to it because we felt the same way, we went through the same things the same way, you know, at the same time. So it's just all about, you know, really honing in on who that audience is and what they're going through at that right time to be able to grab them. And I hear people say all the time, I was just up late one night and I just happened to Google business plans, and next thing you know, you popped up on my Instagram and here I am. It's incredible.

Yeah, it sounds like a combination of both organic, so TikTok, different social media, search engine optimization, and then paid. And I think it's paid advertising is something that, for a lot of people who listen to this podcast are. They're just in the mindset of search, like SEO, you got to get SEO, and then from SEO, you get traffic, and then from traffic, you get ad dollars. But one of the great things about paid Advertising is and would be interested if you don't have to show specific numbers. But my guess is you're spending 100,000, you're making more than 100,000. And you know what that equation is where you could say with paid advertising, you can start to get to the point where if I put a penny in, then I know that I can get two pennies out. And once you figure that out, it becomes a scalable business in a way that doesn't exist for a publishing site where you're producing content to get traffic to monetize via ads. So was that one of the things that you learned in working with this coach that you worked with was strategy around paid advertising and a funnel that's a part of it, and then people signing up. I'd be curious to know kind of your mindset around advertising and even, like, what the shifts were with Facebook, because it sounds like when tracking shifted suddenly, like before, you maybe put one penny in and you got four out. Now you're putting one penny in and you're getting two out. You're still able to do it effectively, but not as effectively as it was before. So I guess curious to hear your thoughts around paid advertising as a strategy and kind of where you would rank order that in terms of importance for the academy.

I had many coaches. Bjork, it wasn't just that one. So she was working on another part of me, but the ones I had after our journey as food bloggers, my very first investment into something that was intangible was ads. Facebook ads. I think maybe that was the second one. Second was Facebook ads. So I took a Facebook ads course. And that definitely is still a journey. So, yes, before then, it was all about learning metrics. I was just putting out there. Facebook gets you in a good way. Oh, just boost this $10 and you can show up in front of, you know, many more people. But you don't want to show up. You know, you want the conversion. And that's what I had to learn. And then the conversion metrics was like you said, okay, before the iOS 14 update, I'll put in a penny and I'll get five pennies back. Life was just great. And I don't even have to go on social media on my phone. You know, that's what I'm paying Facebook to do. And then after that, iOS, in one sense, it's great as a user because, oh, great, they won't track me. These businesses won't stalk me. But then as a business owner, as a marketer, you're like, ah, now I can't stop them. Now I can't.

Yeah, exactly.

I mean, even if they want. But honestly speaking, even if they wanted our services and needed our services and didn't mind seeing our ads because it's something that they wanted, who's going to say when the ad, when the question pops up, oh, do you want this service or a company to track you? Everybody's going to say no.

Yeah, right.

You know, so that was something that was definitely a challenge. And, you know, now it's about going through different avenues and like I said before, having to now do more organic because now we may not be able to track an iOS user, Apple user, but I can now see them. They can see me on Instagram or they can see me on Facebook and then, and then they're in my email. And then now I can email them too. You know, automatic, automated, of course, but they can see me in my email. So we're kind of catching them at many different places instead of just one place now.

But also to add to that, though, you know, we don't want people to think that that's it. You know, just because you spent money on an ad and people see you and they click on you, that doesn't mean that you made that conversion. Like she said, you know, the end of the story is that you still have to sell yourself. Yeah. Nobody's going to give you $10,000 for a course and they don't know you. So, you know, the classes and making that conversion is everything. And that's why we always like to see who we, who we're dealing with. And we like to have those classes beforehand so we can weed out the strong ones versus the weak ones. Because if you don't really have it, you know, we don't want much to do with people like that. We don't want to waste your time or ours or your knowledge, you know what I mean? Because it's come to a point now where it's, it's about money. I'm not going to say it's not, but at this point it's really about, you know, the product of the people, the quality of the persons that are coming in there. You know what I mean? Because you really want to help people when you get to a certain level and you want the people that are like, they're itching and they're there and it only takes us literally 10 minutes and we can figure that out. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

You can really tell.

Yeah, yeah. You know, if people are actually Going to do it versus, like, the idea of doing it? Yes. How do you. Do you. Would you be able to identify what those traits are that you're able to see? And it's probably a little bit of a sixth sense that, you know. But what are. What are the things that kind of the qualities of people who actually get after it right away?

Showing up on time.

Sure.

You know, if you're late showing up at all, yet showing up at all, you know, lots of questions. I mean, tons of questions. Questions that have nothing to do with the course at all. And I love those questions because that tells me that you already dived into it. You know, you're like, waist deep and there's something that you're looking for. Right. And I like that because those people, they believe that they have it all, but then you walk them back and you start talking about mindsets and stuff, and they're like, wow, that's so simple. I never thought about that. You know what I mean? What else, man? Just their demeanor, the way they speak, the way they dress. You know what I mean? Everything, it's just. Oh, it's so crazy.

Yeah.

Like he said, the asking of the questions. Because we do a free training class every Thursday evenings, and I have Q and A, you know, and that training class is different. I have people literally going on each week, and they get something different out of it. And I can tell by the people, like you said, who ask questions and the people who are sitting there quiet. And sometimes it's like, okay, maybe they're soaking it all in. I've overwhelmed them a little bit. Right?

Sure.

But for me, you know, how I act when I'm seeking mentorship and to learn something new. I want to get in your head as much as you want to allow me. Right. Before I have to start paying you, I want to get into your head. I want to know, not so much the step by step, because I can pay you to teach me that, but I want to know, like, how you've overcome certain obstacles. And I love when people ask me that, like, well, what happened when this and what happened when that? And I can tell, okay, they went out and tried it on their own and it's not working. So now they're going to need help versus, like you said, the people. I just want to open up a storefront. Oh, what have you done so far? Yeah, well, nothing.

Right, right.

But I've been, you know, doing this for 10 years, so how do you. It's not going to drop into your lab.

Yeah, right, right.

And it goes both ways too. You know, they're looking for, they're looking at us the same way they're interviewing us, like we're interviewing them, you know what I mean? So we answer the right questions and say the right things. You know, they're in. They know they're good.

Yep. It's. There's this phrase that I think about. I think there's a. I think her name is Jess Sims. She's a peloton instructor. Jess Sims, is that right? She's awesome. She's like my favorite. And she'll a lot of times have like these quotes that she talks about, but one that's really stuck with me is she talks about this in the middle of a workout like, like how you do anything is how you do everything. And it sounds a little bit like what you're saying is part of what you can suss out in those initial interactions is you know that the quality of, of like somebody showing up on time that also reflects in somebody's ability to like produce a cake on time for an upcoming event. Like how you do anything is how you do everything. And if somebody is like loose in those areas, you know, you, you know from doing it for 12, 14, 15 years that you have to be tight in all those areas. And I just think that's to observe that. So I'm curious to know some success stories so people you've worked with. I know it's kind of early stages, but it's always inspiring for people to hear the transformation that somebody goes through. And really I think when we're educating people, what we're doing is we're providing a transformation. You are here and you want to be here. We're going to help you get there in the most efficient way possible. Do you have any stories of people who, even if it's taking their first step, maybe opening a store, any stories of people who have gone through that transformation and what impact that's potentially had for them? If you know.

Yeah, absolutely. We had our, in our very first cohort and it was so exciting. We had a lady and she was at her wits end. She was one. It was like 11 years as a baker, as a side hustle, a part time baker. She was like an accountant, corporate accountant. And she told her husband, she said, if it doesn't happen this year, if I do not get my store this year, maybe it's not for me. And then she happened to see my ad on Facebook and she said, well, at that time we weren't doing our free classes. We Were doing our calls. So she hopped on a call with me and then we let her know how we can help her make that transformation. And she enrolled into the program five months later. She went through everything. And this is one of the things that Rob was talking about. We knew exactly that she's going to be the one, but we were just still so excited and that she did it so quickly, but she literally went through every single lesson that we took. Good time and putting together that many people do not follow to the T, but if you do, this is the result that you will get. And she went on every single coaching call, asked all the right questions, but most importantly, she did the work.

Yeah, she did.

You can go on and watch everything I tell people. Don't think that you're going to fly past this, you know, binge it all in one weekend and think you're going to get a store because you have to do the work. And if you do the work, everything, we got your back. Like if you're willing to go all in, we go all in for you. We over deliver so much because this is something that we believe in and love and know that a bakery business, cake, cupcakes, brownies, cookies will change your life. Right? And that's what she did. She did the work, she asked all the right questions. And five months later, she came back and she said, I just signed my lease on my new store. Covid hit. That's when Covid hit.

Yeah.

But she still pushed through. Once the orders, the shelter in place was lifted, she was ready. She was like one foot out the door. And as soon as that was lifted, a few weeks later, she had her grand opening on my birthday, actually June 29, 2020.

And her husband. Right, her husband.

Well, not yet. It was just her. Her husband was still working in manufacturing and she was so busy. She did not think that she was gonna be as busy as she was because Covid and she's new, you know, but because of the marketing strategies, everything that we helped her set up, I mean, in and out, in and out, in and out. You know, she was so busy. So that is when about six months later, she hired her husband, he quit his job, hire him to work in the family business. So that right there. And I mean, there's more after that. We've helped people open, you know, right around the corner from us, which is exciting because I'm in there all the time. And she pretty much got her tuition back, you know, because I'm in there all the time. But she just to see people Go through, literally home baker resigning from their 9 to 5 job, something that they've had for years, that they worked hard to get to, and then open up a real legit store with real legit customers and making real legit money and changing their real legit life. Something that we put together. I don't know. Sometimes I can't explain it. It's unexplainable, but it's an amazing. It's rewarding.

Yeah. Lindsay and I talk about this idea of types of income, and I think the one that we talk a lot about, just because this is the most tangible, is like financial income. But there's also other types of income that we get from the work that we do, like inspirational income or like impact income. And if you have a job that's void of impact income and it's just financial income that will only get you so far, you have to have all of these different kind of spokes. And it sounds like that's an important one for you guys, which is like, man, you have a successful business helping people, but it's also really important for you to see those people have success and to see their lives changed and that being equally or also significant in terms of the reason why you do what you do.

I'll be honest, he has to remind me that, you know, we have bills to pay and kids to raise. I would literally do this for free every day. I just, I. Because. Because I know what we put into cupcakeology bakery, and I know what we received out of it, and I just know that that's something that is really game changing and life changing for people. But he's like, yeah, baby, this is still a business. Okay?

You can't.

If they pay for an hour, you can't give them two, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, right, right, right. But if it's worth it, you see how that would be possible. So I'm curious to know, in terms of the different types of businesses you talked about, food trucks and retail, it feels like there's also a shift that's been, I think, Covid accelerated, which is like food delivery. And I also know there's ghost kitchens where you can rent a little kitchen, and it's not technically retail, but you could just do delivery. In the world of baking and bakeries, what are the ways that you could? Because I think signing a lease, it kind of feels like this pivotal. Awesome. You open your storefront, it looks beautiful, but there's also maybe ways to kind of step into it that are a little bit more. Less risk Potentially in the software world, they talk about it as this MVP minimum viable product, like something small that's not capital intensive, that can allow you to test the idea. Is there an equivalent like that in the bakery world and what would that look like? If somebody wants to experiment with starting their business, but maybe they're initially hesitant around a lease, but they want to get started, what does that look like and how do you kind of take your first step into it?

What I would tell people first of all is to, you know, whatever you feel that you're the most comfortable with, whether it's a storefront delivering, farmer's market, farmers market, whatever you feel that you're the most comfortable with, then go that route. Whether it's a lease you got to sign or it's a truck you gotta buy. Because it doesn't matter where you're doing your business at or what type of business you're doing, that same expense is going to exist. It's just going to exist somewhere else.

Right.

So people will always tell people that it's easier to start up, just start with Uber, you know, get a car and start rolling or whatever. But they don't talk about the insurance, they don't talk about the taxes that you have to pay, the self insurance, your self employed taxes. There's so many things, hidden costs that people don't talk about. So whatever it is you want to do, it's going to be the same amount of money that you're going to spend out. It's just going to be somewhere else. Like us, the bulk of our money was with food. It's no longer with buying ingredients and food anymore. It's advertising.

Sure.

So whether we were doing, we could open up the store again tomorrow, you know what I mean? We would just shift the expenses. So, you know, we try to tell people, whatever you're comfortable with, do that. Right. And then once you get that up and running and now you're ready to expand, then we can talk about different scenarios, you know what I mean?

Yep, yep. Could you do, could you do like. Because I would imagine it would be cheaper to let's say just do something from your house.

Oh yeah.

Like you could. I think of this woman who's from our hometown, small hometown, but she's like this incredible artist and she does Christmas cookies. I think it's almost exclusively, but maybe does it like for birthdays as well? I don't know, but I would assume she just does it from her house, which I think would be pretty low cost. Are there. This is getting into the weeds a little bit. But like, can you. My guess is you have to get certain licensing in order to do that from your house. And then my. The follow up question that would be if you wanted to do delivery, my guess is you would have to have like a retail or like a ghost kitchen or a retail location if you were going to do like Uber delivery or doordash. Like, you can't. This is the first time I've ever thought of this. But you probably couldn't have a doordash driver come to your house to like deliver cookies. But maybe you could. I don't know.

They have. So yeah, it's different levels. So, you know, we, we teach. You said mvp, but we have a. We coined a term called mvm.

Sure.

Minimum Viable materials.

Yeah. Yeah.

So we're called Start Small, Win Big Academy. So yeah, you meet you where you are. So if you're ready for the point of jumping into retail, then we can help you open up that brick and mortar. But if you want to take. I always tell people, you know, because people get stuck because they worry they're on level A, but then they're trying to figure out how to get the level Z. I'm like, yeah, so many different steps.

Let's just talk about.

Right. Let's talk about how to get from level A to level B.

Okay.

Or level B to level C. Right. So that's the minimum viable material. So what do you need minimally to start making money?

Yeah.

Right. So if that means if you're in your store, like for instance, we have a student. Oh my gosh. She was just like, you know, not really. She had everything in her. Right. She had everything she needed inside. She just needed us to help her pull it out. And she was a home baker and she, we helped her get to level B. Right. Which is. Okay, this is your job. This is your salary. You told me that your goal is to replace your salary with your business, but yet you're not ready for the overhead of retail. Fine, then here are the steps you need to take. And we helped her take those steps from A to B where she did farmer's markets and did you know catering is different things out of her home. Yes, we helped her get legitimized in her home. Whether she got her license, her llc, all those things is set up so she can run a legit business. Right. And then we helped her go from, okay, she did one thing and that took a piece out of her salary. And then another and another and another. And next, you know, she's like, I can confidently quit my job now, right? But she still doesn't have a storefront. And then now she's working on the storefront level because she's busted at the seams. She's busting out of her house now. So, you know, we'll help you get to the point of where you have no choice but to take that next step. And then when you feel like you have that choice right then, or when you feel like you're at that point, you're like, okay, now I can see it. Whereas if you're at level A and you're even trying to get to D, you can't see that because there's so many different things, you know, between that. So that's great.

And it literally is in the name, like, start small. It is win big. And I think that's such a great. I think the hard part is a lot of us want to, like, start big, win big. And we all know that so much of where we are now is due to showing up every day and going from, like, A to B or, like, taking. Even if it's like, not getting to be. It's like taking a couple steps towards B each and every day, and eventually you get to be. And then it's like, great. You do it again and again and again. And it's the culmination of years of that that eventually get to the point where you can say, great, now I'm going to, in this. In the case of this person, get a retail store, Feel confident.

I got a story for that. Not to stop you, but I got a story.

No, that's great.

I got a good story for that. We had a student. She came through the course, you know, flew through everything. The little stuff was too small for her. She had the money and the finances to do what she wanted to do it big. So, you know, we let her do what she wanted to do the way she wanted to do it, right? Because we're not your parents, right? We can't give you great advice. So we got her to open up her store. She did everything she wanted to do. And, you know, about a month later, she's back knocking at the doorstep, and we're like, what's the problem? You got the store, you're good to go and everything. The problem was she never realized or felt what it was like to make $5,000, then $10,000, then bump it up some more, then bump it up some more. She started big, and she didn't know how to advertise for people like, that didn't know how to hire employees, didn't have the mindset of the smallness first before she got to the bigness. So that's like one of the main caveats that we have with people. They don't want to start small. It's okay to start big if you have the experience, right?

Yeah, yeah.

And you been working for a couple years on doing what it is that you want to do. Like you said, the young lady who wants to start, you know, selling cookies in the house, Right. You get a cottage license or whatever may be in that state. And, you know, she feels so good because she sold $5,000 worth of cookies in her house. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

That feeling is great. Now she knows what it is to make that 5,000. She doubles that. Then she triples it. That next year she's making $50,000. She's ready to get out of the house. She knows the steps. That's what the start small, win big academy is about. It's literally about starting small and winning big. But there's also some people that come in and they already did that, and we can tell, you know, and we're able to take them and throw them further, but they always come back because business always changes. You know what I mean? Technology evolves. Facebook stops working. You know, Apple puts it into things. You know what I mean? So you. They always come back, and they need more ingenuity, you know what I mean? It's hard to run your business and run ads, you know what I mean? So that's another part that we do now. And people constantly come back, and I have to remind my wife they're gonna come back. You can't just focus on the new people. They're coming back. But when they come back, they want your help ASAP. Next month, I need to make another 50,000. This isn't working no more.

Yeah, yeah. It's constant evolution. So once you've figured it out, you're having to figure it out again. And I think that's. I think everybody listening can relate in some way, whether it be an algorithm changing a social media platform, starting like Facebook used to be, from an organic perspective, you could publish something on Facebook and you could get thousands of people visiting your site. And then overnight, Facebook changes things, that it's going to turn off a switch. You can't get organic anymore because they want people to pay. Or now TikTok, to your point, like, what is it like if you feel like you have to turn the camera on and do a Little dance. It's like there's lots of different ways you can do TikTok, but like, that's one of the things. It's like, oh no, am I going to. Is that the new reality? And maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but just things are always kind of changing and evolving. So there's. We could cover all the different facets and we could talk for eight hours, but that's what the academy is about. For those who are interested, who have maybe heard this and said, you know what, like, that is something that's really interesting to me, would be interested in starting some type of store where I'm selling goods, you know, maybe as a complement to a blog or social media or as the, the main thing that they're doing. How can they connect with you guys? And what would be the first step? Like if we talk about those little steps, starting small, would it be jumping on one of those weekly calls that you do? Or what would be the best next step?

Absolutely. They definitely go to our website. I always drive people there. You can learn about us, read our story, watch some of our interviews. Right. So that's www.cupcakeologypa.com. and then from there they can come register for that free live class. I have it every Thursday evening, 7pm Eastern, 4pm Pacific. And it's, it's soup to nuts. I mean, the reaction from people at the end, they're like, first of all, I was on here, I didn't know you and I wasn't sure if I was going to come on. But now you have me on for three hours and I don't want to let you go. I don't want to leave.

Yeah, hang out, training I've ever had.

You know, and then after that, if they feel, you know, like, okay, this is someone that I know is going to help me get to from Level 8 to Level B and then eventually all the way up to level Z. And then they can make that decision to hop on a personal call with me and we can talk about the options of joining our program, which we have, you know, one on one. It's kind of like a hybrid where you get one on one first for a month and then you move into the group coaching or you can just jump into the group coaching if that's best for you.

Cool, that's great. Rob and Jen, really good to connect again. Really great to hear your story and your constant evolution. It's inspiring. So thanks for coming on.

Thank you for having us so much.

Hey there, Alexa here. We hope you Enjoyed this episode of the Food Blogger the Pro Podcast. Thanks for tuning in this week. I wanted to let you know that we actually recently launched something called the Member Directory. So all Food Blogger Pro members have access to it, and they can access it by going to foodbloggerpro.com directory, and it's there that you can see and connect with all of your fellow Food Blogger Pro members and industry experts and those of us on the Food Blogger Pro team. So you'll see different things like social links and blog links and, and bios and just ways to connect. And it's just such a fun place to go if you're looking to kind of build your own community on a social media platform or just be able to connect with other people and see what they're up to on their blogs. So again, that URL is foodbloggerpro.com directory and if you are a Food Blogger Pro member and you're interested in filling out your profile, you can do that over in the edit profile area of your membership. And then once you fill out that information and you're kind of exploring the member directory, you can filter by cuisines. So if you're blogging about vegan recipes and you want to connect with other vegan bloggers, it's very easy to do that on the directory. It's very fun, very cool, and just a really awesome place to connect with one another. So if you're a member, be sure to check that out@foodbloggerpro.com directory. And if you're not a member, all good. If you're interested in joining, you can learn more@foodbloggerpro.com membership. But otherwise we will see you here on the podcast next time, next Tuesday. And until then, make it a great week.