374: From Blogger to Cookbook Author – How Adrianna Adarme Sold 110,000 Copies of Her Cookbook

This podcast is sponsored by Clarity. That is C-L-A-R-I T I.com and Clarity is really the hub for you if you are a blogger or a publisher.

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You're listening to the Food Blogger Pro podcast.

We are doing a series all about going from blogger to cookbook. So from Blogger to cookbook author series interviewing people about how they went through the process of becoming a cookbook author, things they've learned, insights they've had along the way. And for some people who start a blog, one of the goals that they have is to become a cookbook author. And there's a lot of benefits that come from it, and there's also a lot of really hard things that come from the cookbook process. And what we want to do in this series, of which this podcast interview is the first, is to discuss all the ins and outs that go into the process of doing a cookbook. And so this is part one, and in this interview, we're talking to Adriana Adarme, and she has a site, a blog called A Cozy Kitchen, and she also has a couple cookbooks that she's published and has had success in varying different forms with those cookbooks. And she's going to talk about the things that she's learned in from cookbook number one to cookbook number two, and has some really specific insights. And she also shares numbers around how many cookbooks she sold, both the first time and the second time, why she thinks that one cookbook did better than the other. It's just really a gift to hear her be transparent in the whole process. And I know for me, I learned.

A lot along the way and think.

You will as well. Hey, before we jump into it, I'd like to give a quick shout out to our podcast Facebook group. So if you go to foodblockerpro.com Facebook, you can join the group that's specific for this podcast, and it's a way for us to just continue the conversation around all things blogging, publishing, recipe creation, recipe development, cookbooks, whatever it might be. And we would love for you to join that group and continue the conversation there. It's free to join again. You can do that by going to foodblockerpro.com Facebook or you could go to Facebook and just search for the Food Blogger Pro podcast, and you should be able to find it. So go ahead and check that out. What we're gonna do right now is jump into this interview with Adriana, and I Can't wait to share it with you. And for all of you who are interested in publishing a cookbook, I know.

That you're gonna get a lot out.

Of it, so let's go ahead and jump in. Adriana, welcome to the podcast.

Hi. Thank you for having me.

Yeah, we're gonna be talking about all things cookbook, but. Or cookbooks, in your case, multiple cookbooks. For this series that we're doing where bl go through the process of writing cookbooks and seeing what we can learn from bloggers who have done that.

But before we do, love to get.

A little bit of a background.

So tell us who you are, what you're about, your.

Your site, and maybe, like, what a normal day or week looks like for you.

Okay. Yeah. My name is Adriana Adarme, and I write the food blog A Cozy Kitchen. And I started it in, I think I want to say, 2011. So I guess I'm considered, like, an OG blogger.

Yeah. 10 plus years.

Yeah. And I started it when I was, like, a lot of people around that time. I started it when I was bored at work and very uninspired. I was working at a trailer house here in la, and I really wanted to do something creative, but that was on my own. And when I was at work, I stumbled upon food blogs. I stumbled upon, I would say Joy the Baker was maybe the first one that I read. I started reading and Smitten Kitchen, and I was like, wow, this, like, looks like so much fun. And I would, like, cook their recipes and bake their recipes at home. And then I was like, why don't I do something like this? And I really had no experience cooking or baking, but I did want to go into food media, so I really wanted to go and, like, work for Food Network or work for a food sort of channel, and. But all that stuff was based in New York, and I was not willing to move to New York. So this was kind of a way that I could kind of dip my toe into creating food content without actually having to commit to living in New York City.

Yeah, it's something that we have the ability to do now. Right. Like, 20 years ago, you'd be like, I want to get into food media. And it's like, well, you should figure out how to do TV or, like, write for a newspaper or, like, having your own platform wasn't really a thing. And I think we forget that.

Yeah, I know. And I was super inexperienced when it came to food. Like, I. I felt like it was somewhat of a hobby of mine, but I definitely wasn't. I didn't understand how to write a recipe. Like, I didn't really understand all of the rules of, of what that meant and what went into that. And I certainly didn't know how to take a food photo.

Yeah.

But I went, I did go to film school, so I think my learning curve was a little shorter because I had like that foundation of film and I understood ISO and F stop and I understood all of those things. So then when it came to like digital photography, I was like, oh, I kind of, I kind of know this, you know?

Yep. Yeah. So when you say you were working in a trailer house, what does that mean?

Yeah, it's basically like there's, there's market, there's marketing companies here in LA that specialize in making trailers for feature films.

Sure.

So they also do like featurettes, they do behind the scenes, they do all of the marketing promo for, for major motion pictures. So I worked at a company like that. And so I was, I started off as like a production coordinator and then moved to an associate producer and we were do. I was producing kind of like behind the scenes content that would live on different websites and live on like, you know, or whatever.

See, when you say this is the difference between L A and Midwest in la, you say trailer house and people are like, oh, yeah, you work on the film is in for me, you say trailer house and I'm like, oh, like a mobile home park trailer house.

Okay, yeah, no, a little different. A little different. A little different. Yeah, no, like trailer houses, they just make, they just make sure they like pump out trailers. And I mean, trailers, definitely.

So they have like a guy who has like the deep voice.

Yes. Like the famous guy that he came into the office one time. He's very famous, he'll go over.

Does he do all of them?

He does a lot of them. And that day. So like, what happened that particular day that I saw him, very small, sort of short, older guy, he came in a limo and like they book him out. They booked him that day for one trailer. I forget which one it was. And then he was on his way to like three or four other trailer houses to do audio. And I mean, like, he came in the booth and like he read the script and he like nailed. I was like, in the booth and it was like, he nailed it on the first take. Yeah. And you're just like. And everyone's like, I guess we should have him do it again for like safety. But like, does anybody have any notes?

And then you hand him a check for $30,000.

Yeah. If you're just like, oh, he's a professional. Like, he knows he gets back in.

His limo and goes to the next place.

Exactly. And so it's like, he's like, I work one day every three or four weeks and, like, put them all in one day, and I'm gonna go and do my. And he kills it. I mean, it's like, yeah.

But I think it's worth pointing out, it's one of the things that we try and talk about. Cause I think a lot of times people look at this space, whatever that might be, social media, posting to a website, and they think, like, I don't have experience with that thing. But a lot of times you have something leading up to that that actually will really help you if you lean into it. For. Lindsay was teaching. Like, yeah, it was a huge part of her background and her experience. For me, it was, like, an interest in IT and computers and gadgets and all things like technology. It's, like, didn't understand the space, but, like, had this background. So I think it's an important reminder. And it sounds like that was the case for you. You want to get into food media. Maybe don't have the food piece. You have the media piece, and you can kind of craft that around the ways that you need to deploy that within this space.

Yeah, I think a lot of people have applicable skills, and they don't necessarily think they do. And I think that it's really important to kind of, like, under. I mean, at the time, I didn't understand how my skills could be applicable. I just wanted to do something fun and creative. And I was. You know, I went to art school. Like, I went to film school. It was an art conservatory. So I knew I wanted to do something creative every single day. And I think that was really, like, what drove me towards. It was like I was like, wow. Like, I don't have to rely on anyone to be creative every day. I can take this into my own hands and do it for myself. And whether it makes money or not doesn't really matter, because I'm. I want to be like, I want to feel fulfilled. And I didn't necessarily fulfill that. My. I didn't feel fulfilled at my job.

So I think that's interesting because I think when I hear Trailer house and I think of the stuff that you're doing, I'd think, like, oh, it's like the peak of creativity would be movies, media, like, whatever sound effects. You're putting music behind these dramatic scenes. But that Wasn't the case.

It's not. I mean, I think that. I think making movies is very different than marketing movies. I think when you're making movies, you're obviously coming up with the story and crafting the cast and putting the pieces together depending on what department you work in. Even if you're a producer, you're putting those pieces together, and it can be really creative and really fulfilling. But I think when you're dealing with the marketing of a movie, it can be really formulaic and it can be all about, like, hitting, you know, a certain demo, and it can be very, like, data and statistic driven and can feel like, you know, putting like a little puzzle together that is that, like, it. It's already there. Like, you just have to scoot the pieces together. It's. So that part is not super fulfilling or creative at all. And the trailer, you know, those also have a formula to them, you know, so those also can't. Aren't super creative. I mean, most trailers are pretty much the same. They follow the same structure.

Yeah.

So, yeah, it just didn't feel very creative to me. And. And also when you're dealing with a big major motion, like a studio, and you're dealing with the company that you work for, it's like there's a lot of politics involved.

Yeah. You don't necessarily have creative autonomy, like, to go and create the thing you want. It's like there's a lot of decision makers involved and people along the way. So you. You say, great, I want to. I know. I want to be in the space of food. Explore that. You kind of have some of these people that you're following. You're like, oh, it's really cool what they're doing. I'm interested in kind of doing a similar thing. And you spin up a blog, like, start to post a little bit. You said initially it wasn't something that you're interested in necessarily doing for financial benefit, but eventually did become that, and you started doing it full time. So what did that transition look like?

It was rocky.

How so?

Well, I think that I maybe jumped the gun too soon. It was one of those things where I was like, I feel like I could wing this. I can figure it out. And. And so I quit my job little. Like a little too early. And so there were some months where I was like, oh, my God, I need to find a job. You know, and this is also pre Instagram. This is pre Instagram, pre Pinterest, pre, like social media platforms that sort of assisted you in making Money in different ways. So it was really just like, off of ad revenue that wasn't as fruitful as it is now. It was kind of.

What year was this?

Maybe like 2012, 2013. So it was kind of before, like, the, you know, Ad Thrive and mediavine sort of started. I mean, maybe they had started already, but I wasn't with them, certainly. And. Yeah, and it just didn't feel like it's, like, super stable. Even though my numbers, like, on my blog, work great. Like, I was. I was building an audience. People were there, people were commenting, people were remaking my recipes, which felt really great. The money just wasn't there yet. You know what.

So how long did you hold on in that stage, or did you end up getting another job to smooth things over?

I didn't get another job because I didn't get the job, but I did apply to, like, YouTube. And then I ended up selling my first cookbook, which I think helped a lot. And it made me be like, okay, I have some money coming in and it's going to be okay. And it also, I think, just like, reaffirmed that this is maybe the path that I should go on.

Can you talk about that specifically? Like, as long as we're in the cookbook world, how did that. How did that come about? Did somebody reach out to you? And then in terms of, like, the deal itself, insofar as you're comfortable, like, how much of that would you feel comfortable sharing in terms of what that looked like?

Yeah, so I. I actually went after a. An agent. I contacted an agent, and because I had gotten, like, a proposal demo, like an example of a proposal, and there.

Was a meaning you got from somebody else, a proposal demo. Like, here's what a proposal would look.

Like, here's what a cookbook proposal would look like, here's what you need to have involved in the cookbook proposal, which included everything from an opening bio of me and the. The subject of what the. What the book would be like and examples of what the recipes would read like. And then also what the marketing plan would be like, who I'm connected to that's somewhat famous that, you know, would give me blurb or anything like that.

How did you come across that?

A friend of mine, I think, sent it to me. Another food blogger sent it to me. I forget who, but there was a. On the COVID there was an agent's name. So my agent that I use, the first one was Danielle Svetkopf, and she's at Levine Greenberg Literary Agency in New York. And So I just blindly, like, cold emailed her and was like, you know, I got this proposal, and this is what I'm. What I'm trying to do. Like, what do you think? And would you be interested in representing me or representing, you know, me and my book? And she got back to me pretty quickly. And I think at the time, I think there was a lot of buzz around food bloggers and a lot of like, oh, they're this new entity that has following and, you know, we should maybe see if they're, you know, they can sell books. We don't know, you know, And I think a few of. I think a few food bloggers at that point had really sold. Had really sold some books.

Yeah. To make sure I'm tracking. So you got this demo of what a proposal might look like. You took that, you had the contact information. So a friend sent that to you. You had the contact information. You spun up your own actual proposal out of the dem. Yeah, like, hey, I can see what it looks like. Great. So I'm going to create my own and then send it to the person whose name was listed there and say, like, are you interested in working with me? Had you also developed a concept for a book?

Yes, I wanted. I was like, I really want to make a pancake cookbook. Why? I have no idea who told me this would be a good idea. I have no idea. You know, I think that I. I think it started with me. You know, I think I came up with a concept for two reasons. Number one, I did really like pancakes growing up. I mean, most kids do.

It's a good place to start. Yeah.

But I think I also just didn't have the confidence in a cozy kitchen to say it's going to be a cozy kitchen cookbook, because I felt like my brand wasn't big enough. My site wasn't big enough. And in hindsight, that's definitely not the move. What do you mean by that? Well, I've been told by a lot of people that work in cookbooks, like editors and stuff like, that you should actually start quite wide and then go into, like, focus, like, like, you know, single subject, whatever that is. So it's like, you know, it should be a cozy kitchen cookbook or like, something very wide, and then. Then the next one is like, simple meals or like dinners or, like, you know, desserts or, like kid food. You know, like, that's how you should. You should go. You should go at it start meaning.

Like, your first cookbook should be. Do you know why that is?

I think I don't know. I think what it does is it establishes like a world. It establishes like an umbrella of what your ethos or what your, what your point of view is. And then after that you can kind of go in with more specialty sort of subjects.

Yeah. Like, it's almost like saying, here I am, here's my brand. It's me versus coming in really narrow, which potentially has the, the. It has the potential to establish that as your brand. Like if you come in with this really specific thing, then it's like, oh, you're the pancake person.

Right. And I'm not a pancake girl. Like, I don't want to be pancake.

You're like interested in.

But.

But you're interested in it in a silo.

Yeah.

Whereas if you were to come out broad, it's like the brand is your actual brand and within that much like categories on a website.

Exactly.

You have these specialties.

Yeah, exactly. It's like, so it's like, you know, I mean, I think Pioneer Woman is someone who has done that so well. I mean, her first book was the Pioneer Woman Cookbook, you know, and it was like everything she makes on the ranch, you know, from featuring Charlie to like things that she makes, her children to her husband to her friend, her girlfriends, like, it's very, a very wide umbrella of things that she makes. And then after that it's like Christmas recipes, you know, it's like it goes in very specific and you know exactly what those things are going to be like. You know, you have an idea. And so I think she's someone that has done. Done it right from like the beginning.

Yeah. Interesting. So, but going through this process, it sounds like it worked in that you were able to get a deal coming out of it and publish a cookbook.

Yes. So my first deal was sold to St. Martin's Press and it got actually like pretty good traction. Like when it was sent out to publishers, a lot of publishers were sort of were interested. I mean, I think single subject. Also a thing that I learned is they don't pay very well because you're betting off of. Do people really want this single subject? You know, like, we don't know. Are you really that interested in chili? Are you really that. I mean, unless it's. I think now we realize appliance based cookbooks actually crush it.

So like, like an instant pot cookbook.

As an example, instant pot, air fryer, you know, crock pot. Those types of single subjects actually do really well. And I do think that ebooks on single subject do really well as well.

Sure. Yep. Because you're able to sell against that based on. I would assume based on matches that people are doing with, like, buyer intent searches, like, instant. If somebody searches instant pot recipes, you know they're interested in that versus if you have. And it almost seems like the difference between selling out of your following versus selling out of an interest. And it's like, with an interest, you might know that people. It's like, people like pancakes. Right.

How.

How much? So. And would it be to the point where people would be interested in buying a cookbook? That's another question.

Yeah. And probably not. So, like, I think when you get an instant pot, you're like, well, I Invest. Already invested $80 or whatever it is in this machine. I want to be able to use it a lot. So buying a $10 cookbook is, like, in my best interest because then I get all these sorts of ideas to use it, you know? So it actually makes more sense. When you go searching for a pancake recipe, you're not looking for 40 different types of pancakes. You probably want just like a normal morning pancake, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so eventually it goes through the process. You have to find an agent. She's like, yep, great. So the agent just understanding the process. The agent then works with you to pitch publishers on a cookbook. And it sounds like from what you said, publishers were interested in it. What happens next in the process?

So, generally, what an agent will do is they'll come up with a list of editors that they want to send it to that they think will be interested in. And so they send you the list. And this is how it happened with me. She sent me the list, and I approved the list. I had no idea who these people were. So I was like, great. And then she sent an email with a proposal to each of those people, and then they respond, either great, not interested. Looks lovely, but gonna pass. And then a few of them were interested. Maybe two or three were interested in.

And these are editors.

These are editors with buying power. So at the time, I believe it was around this time, which is not a great time, actually, to send out a book, because most people are on vacation at this time.

Meaning July, August.

Yeah, July. August is not that great of a time. I think a better time is probably September because everyone's back in the office. And so there were some people that were out, and they were like, I'm really interested, but I'm on vacation in Mexico, you know? So what happened was a few people responded saying that one person was like, I'm really interested in the book. And so she was like, well, you know, I have these other two people that are interested in it, but they haven't sent offers because they're on vacation. And this one publisher was like, well, great. I'm gonna do what's called a preemption, where they send an offer to sort of beat out the other offers. So they sent an offer for, I believe, $40,000 for the first book. And I was like, wow, that's amazing. I was like, that's incredible. And I don't think now, I mean, I would never take a deal like that. And I think that it's very low. But I, like, at the time, I just was like, wow, that's $40,000. Sounds like, you know, I'm.

It's a salary. Like, it's a salary. Like, yeah.

I was like, wow, I'm going to make that off of a book. That's incredible. I was like, okay, where do I sign? You know? And so I was like, okay, I'm. I'm down. And, and really, it was just. That was the deal. That was it. That one email. It was in a preempt.

So, and, and so the idea what, what you're saying, if I'm. If I'm kind of pull the thread a little bit, is that because you. The initial contact with these multiple different potential buyers happened at a time when people were out, it kind of reduced the ability to have any type of bidding on it, or like a bidding war, like the real estate market and the shift that's happened. And houses, eventually, I think the prices will start to go down because there's not as many people who are looking now. Whereas in January of this year, you'd list your house and you'd have 10 people bid on it. Naturally, supply and demand, you're going to get a better price for it. So that's one learning. Make sure you're doing it at a time when you can kind of optimize for the number of people that would be bidding on it. A question that I have coming out of it is you had mentioned editors with buying power. What's the difference between a publisher versus an editor with buying power?

Well, I think there are people who work at publishing houses that their title is Publisher, I think. But most of the people that this was sent to was like senior editor.

Positions where they were within a publishing house.

Yes, exactly. At an imprint or a publishing house. And they have either like an allotted amount of money that they can spend on books every year. On advances. And sometimes it doesn't really have anything to do with you, too. It has to do with their roster. If they just bought. If they. If you're coming out with an instant pot cookbook and they just bought one, they're not going to buy it whether they like how much they. No matter how much they like it, you know, so it's all about fitting into their roster, too. So.

Yeah, that makes sense. And so $40,000, how does that work? Like, do you just get a check that they cut for $40,000 and they're like, go write the book? Or is it kind of tiered out as you have certain deliverables? How did that process work after you kind of signed to get the deal done on that first cookbook?

Yeah, it's kind of, you know, they don't really tell you exactly the way the process is going to work, but sometimes it's either tiered out into two payments or three. And obviously, if you have like two book deals, it could be broken out into seven or whatever. Mine was broken out into two. So the first is upon signing, which is like. So sometimes it can be three, sometimes it can be two. If it's on two, usually it's once upon signing and then second is usually upon delivery of the manuscript or when it comes out. I believe mine was upon signing. And it takes around three or four months to finalize the contract. So you don't get that first check for a really long time. And you're expected to produce the book, to move forward and produce the book, which for someone like me who didn't really have a lot of money, that's very difficult. I can't sit here and dip into my savings and lend myself the money in order to go and do it. I just have to go and spend money on groceries to test the recipes and all of that. And I was like, well, I can't shoot the book because I actually paid a friend of mine who's a food photographer to shoot the book. I have to pay her. I don't have money to pay her if you don't pay me. So, yeah, in that advance, you're generally expected to pay for the photography and the production of the book. Whether that's. If you hire an editor, a writer, a food stylist, a prop stylist, whatever staff you want to hire in order to assist you in making and creating that book, you have to pay them out of the advance. And a lot of times publishers want to approve the photographer. So they approve the photographer for my second Book, which I'm sure we'll get into. I actually shot that myself, and that was approved by them as well, by the publisher beforehand. They knew I was going to shoot the book.

Yeah. It's interesting. You can start to see how you have this kind of one lump sum, and it's like, hey, that's awesome. Like, $40,000 to get paid for this thing. That is. This thing that I'm building. That's a huge piece of it, too, is like, it's. It's a validation of you as a creator, as somebody who's building a thing. Like, somebody looks at it and says, like, I. I think it's worthy enough to, like, pay you a substantial amount of money to create something in the world. That's awesome. And that's a huge validation. And then as you get into it, you start to back certain things out, like the cost of a food photographer. So that backs out, right? Cost of taxes, maybe. You talk about this idea of net proceeds, and net proceeds mean how much are you actually getting after it's all said and done? And slowly you kind of work those numbers back and it's like, oh, actually, there's probably still some leftover. But you can see how quickly, like, 40,000 becomes. Not 40,000 when you factor in everything that you need to make it happen.

Yeah, Everything from agency fees, which is taken out of the. Which is taken out of the advance and, you know, sent directly to them. They get a separate check. And because it's written in the contract, obviously. So, I mean, you're talking about 15% taken off the top. And then after that, you have groceries that you have to, you know, buy, and then you have the photographer and whatever, whoever you're going to hire. And, you know, if I wrote another cookbook, I would be hiring quite a bit of people just to help me because it is such a large amount of work, especially considering everything that I have going on now. But back then, I wanted to do most of it, but still, I still have to spend a substantial amount of that advance.

Yeah, it's in. There's a. This great thread on Twitter for this completely unrelated industry that we'll put in the show Notes, but if anybody wants to check it out. But it's about NHL players and, like, how you hear that an NHL player gets, like, a $6 million contract, but then this guy walks through. I don't know what his role is, like, if he's an agent or maybe like a somebody who used to play, but, like, you slowly start to walk back, like, agent Fee, and then it's, you know, taxes, and then like all of these different pieces. And you get down to it and it's like, oh, you hear 6 million, but when it gets down to it, it's like actually 2 million or 1 million. I forget what he ends up at, which is still obviously an insane amount of money, but it's not the amount that you see as the top line.

Exactly.

So coming out of that first cookbook, you get to the end, you publish it, it's in the world, you get some time behind it. What did you learn after going through that first round of writing, photographing, negotiating, publishing a cookbook?

I learned that pancakes is a really difficult subject to have that many opinions about. Like, it was a struggle to come up with that many recipes on a single subject. And I realized that it should have been much broader, like breakfast or something like that.

How many recipes were in the cookbook total?

I think it was 75.

Okay.

And so it was just quite challenging to really, like, come up with that many recipes that I felt good about.

Sure.

So there were some things about it that I didn't really like. I was just kind of like, like, you know, would I make that? I don't know if I would make that. So I didn't. That was. That was probably the thing that I took away from it the most. And also just how much work it was like.

Yeah.

Which is a tremendous amount of writing, a tremendous amount of editing. It was just a huge workload, you know.

Did you keep your blog up at the same time?

I did, and that was also really challenging.

Yeah.

So those are long days.

Those were really long days. I mean, when I think of like that time and, you know, some days, like now I'll like, Tuesday, I'll take like a Tuesday off and I'll like, go and get like a manicure or something. And I'm like, you know, I kind of. I kind of worked for this. Like, I kind of.

Totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If it's like, in the world of money, it's like those were deposits you made into your bank account that have, like, paid dividends that allow you to have some flexibility now.

So how.

Yeah, totally. You deserve this.

How did.

How did that first cookbook do? And we'll use that as kind of a contrast for talking about your second one.

Yeah, the first book, Cookbook. You know, when I. When I posted that I was going to come out with the book, and here's the pre orders and all of that, the reception was really great and everyone was super. Excited. And I have tons of comments on my blog, but I realized that even all the people that maybe purchased it from the blog, it wasn't really enough. And my cookbook, my first cookbook, didn't do very well. I maybe sold 4,000 copies at the end of the day. I mean, I think now I'm somewhere like, at 7 or 8,000, and it's been like, a really long time, so it didn't really do well. And it was a very humbling experience. And I think it was one that I learned a lot from. I think it was really beneficial for me. I think that I'm the type of person where I almost need to fail a little bit to, like, really understand and kind of dissect what went wrong. And then I can kind of, like, have a ch. A second chance. And that's what I've always kind of like. I mean, I think cooking in general. I mean, I'm sure you've seen Lindsay fail like a million times on recipes. And if something doesn't work out and you. You learn so much from those failures and you just, like, keep going, you.

Know, well, and it's in. We haven't done this for a while, but for years we would do like, we. It was actually Lindsay but, like, the recipe failure recap of the year, and it was, like, pretty extreme. And we'll link to those in the show notes as well. You could probably just search to find them as well. But I think one of the things that I feel like is really true in your situation and can also, like, pull some of my own experiences from is like, first of all, like, 4,000, 8,000. Like, that's 8,000 people who say, like, look at something and say, I want to purchase this. Like, to me, when I look at that, I think that's actually pretty incredible. We live in a weird world where, like, we can see everything and we can then use that as a contrast point in, like, using a contrast point of, like, somebody who sells a million of a thing is a really easy place to access. It's easy for us to see those stories. But I think a lot about this idea of. Kevin Kelly wrote a post. He's kind of a technology pundit. A thousand true fans. And it's like, man, for 8,000 people to exist in the world who say, I want to buy this, while it might not be a financial success, I feel like it's a great validation. And one of the things that I think is important, and this is where it ties back to a. A thought framework that I have is like thinking about your entrance into a thing like selling a cookbook or, you know, trying to understand a social media platform or like a new venture. I thought about this when we bought our first investment property. Like, real estate was like, I'm probably gonna mess this up, and I'm like, not gonna get the deal right. And there's gonna be a lot of things that I don't know about it. And I actually don't know what I'm doing as I'm getting into this. But I know that, like, the only way that I'm going to get there is by starting and figuring it out and then getting to the other side and being like, here's what I could have done better or different. And it sounds like for you, that was a version of this. Like, you. You wouldn't have had all of those learnings that you just talked about if you had just like, read blog posts about cookbooks. Like, it had to be you going through it. So. So I think that's a really cool thing and important to point out and important for listeners, too, to know that's one of the greatest ways to eventually reach that point of success is to go through the thing and be like, oh, this felt off. This wasn't good. I'm going to adjust that. It doesn't have to be a home run on your first one, I guess, is what I'm saying. So you get to this point, you sell 4,000, 5,000 copies, you get what was in advance of 40,000. Did you have to get to a certain point? What would have the number have been if you were to get royalties above and beyond advance? And can you talk about how that works?

Yeah, it's called earning out. So for every single cookbook. Now, I'll also say this piggyback off what you said, where 8,000 copies is a lot. If you sell 8,000 copies of an ebook where you take all of those proceeds.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You're actually doing pretty well. Yeah, 8,000 times $9 is doing all right, you know, but. So for every copy and this is negotiated in, your advance is sort of like for every copy that you sell, you're going to get a percentage of what that is, and it's going to. And it actually, that percentage hits back to the advance. So say you get 20 cents for every. Say you get a dollar for every copy that is sold. So say I sold 8,000 copies. That $8,000 hits the advance of the 40,000.

So you have to work through the advance before you get your royalty.

Exactly.

Or yeah, that cut. And so it kind of becomes a little bit of a numbers game. A little bit where you say, like, do I want a bigger advance? And that's more guaranteed. But maybe you don't have as much upside after you hear about this in the movie industry as well. Like with Tom Cruise and Top Gun, it's like he's going to make a lot from that because he negotiated his contract in a way where it was based not just on a lump sum that he gets paid for the movie, but also ticket sales. And because it did so well, he'll get, he'll get more. So in your case, it's like, great. It could still get there in time. Maybe it catches on and it gets to that 40,000 mark and then eventually works through it. But that was like strictly the advance. Like that's what you were paid for that. And if.

And I didn't earn out.

Yep, that makes sense. I've never.

Yeah, I've never earned out.

And that phrase, earn out, meaning that you earned out the advance and then you get. Would it be considered royalties? Like what is it actually called?

Yeah, it's, it's, it's earning out of your advance. And then after that you get paid in royalties. You get paid, you know, you get royalties essentially and you know, royalties happen. You get paid for royalties. My second book, I get royalties and we'll talk about that soon. But I get paid every six months, May and October, I get royalties from, from that book.

Yeah. So could you ever. This is like a really specific question. I have a friend who had a band, gosh, it was probably like 15 years ago, and nobody, like you can't really find their music anywhere, but they also don't own the rights to the music. Could you buy out like on that first book, could you buy that book from the publisher and then just like switch it over to self published? Do you know how that works?

So, yeah, so actually that's a good, that's a good point. I didn't think about that. So I have to look at what the contract says. But I'm pretty sure that I own all the recipes and I license those recipes to the publisher in perpetuity. I believe that's how it works. So I own all the recipes, so I am able to do whatever I want. But they are also able to print that recipe, print that book for however long they want. Yeah, yeah.

So I feel like, could you buy the, could you buy that back from them?

And essentially, like I probably could if I wanted to.

I don't know.

If I want to, but yeah, I think you could. You know, I. I don't want to say this in, in like a blanket statement, but I will say that the publishing world seems less corrupt and messed up than the music world.

Sure. It seems like, totally.

It's like, it's. It's like from what I've read and everything that I've experienced, it's definitely not the nightmare stories of, like, the exploitation that happens in the music industry. It's a bit more like, it's a bit more ethical. That's what I think. But maybe other people have bad experiences. I didn't have really super bad experiences in publishing, thank God.

Yeah. So you have these lessons learned and you roll that into your next cookbook. Can you talk about when, when that happened, Was it like years and years later? Was it the next year? How anxious were you to jump back in and do a new deal? And how did that one come about?

So I was very anxious to try again because I felt like I had learned so much from the first one. I was determined to succeed on the second one. It was one of those things where I fell down and I was like, oh, no, but I'm gonna do this. And I think at that point I had honed my photography skills and I understood what I wanted to say. I understood exactly what went wrong with the first book. I understood what, like. I had had some conversations with publishers and with editors in publishing, and I learned that single subject books just aren't really set up to succeed. They're very difficult to succeed at and a lot of people don't want them. A lot of publishers don't want single subject books. They run away from them. And, you know, this is also in 2013, so that might have changed, but that's how the sentiment was then. And I also understood that I needed to go wider. I needed to, like, I needed to be. I needed. The subject needed to be broader and it needed to just be something that was more captivating to more people. You know, you want like a larger quadrant. You know, you want, like, you want it to. You want the net to be this wide versus this wide. And around that time, there was a big old. Like, she was. She's been around for a really long time. She was a publisher. She reached out to me and was just like, I think that your talent is like, incredible, and this, this and this and that, and. And she said, you know, the thing that I love about your website and this, this conversation actually really taught me a lot, was when I Go on your website. I feel like I'm entering a world. And when I open up books, I don't make books. Like, I don't publish books, I publish worlds. So when you open a book of mine that I've edited and I've published, I want it to feel like a world that you're entering. And I was like, wow, that's a really interesting way to put it. And that actually really resonated with me because it was exactly what I learned in film school where the first thing that you do before you even write a script is you write down what the world is going to look and feel like. I was just like, wow, so this is exactly like, like making a movie or writing a script. Like what are the rules of the world? What does it feel like? What does it look like, what's the color palette? All of these things. So I was like, okay, so I feel like I can do this. So I wanted it to be like a very cozy, warm feeling that you opened when you opened it up. I figured out a color palette that I wanted to follow. I wanted it to go by the seasons. So I called it the year of Cozy. I wanted it to feel like something where you could live this way all year long through cooking and doing DIYs and life activities like going for a walk with your dog or going for a bike ride or things that would elevate your life in really simple ways. So I kind of wanted it to be this guide in how to live a life that was a little bit more cozy and full.

And so it's almost like the difference, it's such a strong contrast to a specialized cookbook where it's like a specialized cookbook, you're selling a really specific thing. You're selling, you know, instant pot recipes or like pancakes. Whereas what I hear you describing is like it's almost selling a feeling, like it's selling experience. It's like a brand in and of itself. Like I almost think about a novel like, you know, Lord of the Rings. It's like, oh, there's a world there and there's rules to it and languages and like all these things surrounding it. And, and it's not quite that extreme, but it's like also a book. And, and it's a book that is functional in that like you can make recipes from it, but there also is that element of experiential feeling emotion that comes with a novel that's really interesting.

I wanted it to feel like a non linear story. And so I just was like, and at the time, like, right when I had started to write the proposal and kind of got the idea, I was going through a really difficult time with being estranged from my dad. And so I think that I wanted to, like, escape. Like, what is this escape? How do I escape? How do I escape something really painful? Well, like, I cook something. I do this in my life. I go and try something new. I, like, go and find moments of joy when it can be really hard to find joy, you know?

Yeah. It's like, what are the therapeutic activities when you. When you need those in seasons of stress or anxiety or.

Yeah, and I think that that is actually. I mean, it's. I think it's relevant now. I think it's relevant for everyone in their own way, because, like, so many people, you know, life is not perfect. And so how do you find joy in moments of, like, struggle, you know? And it's like that. So that's kind of what the. Like, that's how I kind of started the idea. And then obviously, I didn't really, like, touch on that very much in the book. I did a little bit, but really, it wasn't about that. It was sort of like just this world that you were. That I was creating, you know, so, yeah, that's kind of. That was kind of the start of it for me. And I think once I painted that picture in the proposal, I think it got, like, a really good reception. But when you have a failed cookbook.

Sure. You have.

What was called. What was described is. They described it as I have soot on me. That's what someone said.

Thank you for telling me that.

That's what one of the publisher. One of the editors said is. We. It was. I. I don't want to say the publisher's name, but. But like, they said, you know, here at this publishing house, we love Adriana. We think her content is amazing, but she has soot on her. So we are going to pass. And she said I would get. This is what she said also. She said I would get eaten alive in my. In our. Like, in our buying meeting.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I.

It's one of those things where it's like, okay, like, you can make that decision. Do you need to, like, put that in writing and send it along as a way to describe it?

Probably not, but I was just like, wow, Okay. I mean, it was. It was very honest. And I think what I realized is I didn't have a lot of options, because once you have a failed cookbook, you're a. You know, not. You're not a proof of concept, you're a proof of failure. Sure.

Like you have, you have to prove yourself essentially. Exactly is what they're saying. Yeah.

And it's easier to almost get published as a first time author because they don't know whether you're going to fail or not. But if as a second time author, as a third time author, they really know what you're going to do. So as a second time author, I hadn't proven myself as a first time author, so I didn't really have a lot of choices. Again, the advance that I ended up going with was around $50,000. So it wasn't really gonna, it wasn't really monetarily that great. But at the same time I was shooting it myself, so I knew I wasn't gonna have to, you know, I wasn't gonna have to like outsource that. So I was gonna keep some of the money. I ended up hiring an assistant who worked with me throughout the entire time, Billy Green. He, he ended up working with me for years after that too.

And him and I, what did, what did he help with? With?

He helped with everything from like recipe development, which we did together, which. But he would be like, okay, you're gonna do three recipes today. I'm gonna do three recipes. All right, let's like collaborate on those recipes and everything from doing like the DIYs to like, he would help with the photography, to like help with, you know, just like the ideas. Is this dumb? Is this good? Is like, you know, and him and I worked together for years and years after that. Even on the blog, him and I've created some really amazing content together until he just, he recently moved. But yeah, and that really was like a great partnership in creating content. And so yeah, I mean I saved money because I did so much of it. And I think because I did so much of it, I was a little traumatized from the workload. Editing photos, delivering those photos. There was also step by step photos in some of the instances, which is when you do the photography production, you're talking about not just one final photo for a recipe, you're talking about delivering six recipes that have to be edited and all of that. So. But you know, when the book was almost finalized, when they sent me back, you know, the, it all laid out, I just was like, wow. Like I think that I did it. Like I think that I did something that was, I feel really proud about. And that's kind of what I wanted more than anything. I just wanted to feel proud about something that I was putting out into the world. And we went back with the COVID multiple times. And one thing that I learned on my first cookbook was, okay, I have some selling power through my own audience, but I also want to create a cover that will be good in special sales, Meaning I want it to be sold in places like anthropology and stationery stores. And I want people to walk into. Mainly it was places like anthropology and buy the book.

Can you explain what special sales means? I mean, you can kind of pick up on it by what you're describing.

Yes. So there's different royalty tiers. Right. So you get the most royalty sales when it is sold at a place like Barnes and Noble, or you're buying it directly from the publisher's website. Most people aren't going on the publisher's website and buying it directly from them, but you get the most from places like Barnes and Noble or when Borders was around. Places like that, you don't get a ton. You get less from places like Amazon. And specialty sales, you generally get even less. But what's good about specialty sales is they might. A place like Anthropologie might put six copies in every single anthropology store across the United States. So you're selling 2,3000 copies all at once. And I believe how it works is they just buy them outright.

We buy these, and then we just sell them on our own. So they buy bulk, which is always nice.

Exactly. But they usually under buy so because they want to sell out. So they don't want, you know, 30 of your cookbooks in their stores. They want 6 because they want to make sure they sell all of them. And then also, so places like that would be considered specialty sales. You know, T.J. maxx, Marshalls, they all bought my book. A lot of people think that if they end up at TJ Maxx or Marshalls, they're rejects. They're not. They sell. They buy them for holiday or whatever. And then a lot of times, specialty sales is like, places will buy them to merchandise them with other merchandise. So they're not just selling cookbooks. They're selling, say they have like a, you know, a merchandise sort of setup where they're selling mugs and cozy things and then they have a book.

Like, it's almost like they're adding it to the aesthetic of a certain display.

Exactly. And so Target actually did a huge buy. They bought something like 30,000 copies a few years ago because they had these merchandise sections that were all modeled after Millennial Pink during the holidays. And the COVID of my book is sort of that mauve pink color. So they put them. They merchandise them with tons of other things. It was one of only two books in that kiosk thing that they created, so. So that was where the book really, really did well. And, yeah, I mean, it ended up being a huge success over the past. And even Target carried it this past holiday season. They merchandised it again. And, I mean, it's a book that's almost. It's like five, six years old.

And we kind of buried the lead on this. But the sales for that book right now, if you're comfortable sharing, are at.

What they're about at 110,000, I would.

Say, which is awesome.

Yeah, yeah, it did really, really well. I mean, it did well out of the gate with my audience. It did really well. And then, like, it just continued to build just season after season. Places would carry it all the time. The first season it came out, a lot of places actually didn't carry it the first season, which was really heartbreaking for me because they didn't have enough lead time, because most places, specialty sale places, they're. They're buying for holiday in, like, June. So the. And they only buy when they see the finished book. They don't buy off of, like, a proof of, you know, a proof that they're being sent a paperback proof. So. So they didn't buy for that holiday season, which I was, like, devastated about. But the next season, the next season, places like Anthropologie, TJ Maxx, Marshalls, all of these places started to carry the book. And even little small boutiques, people would send me pictures of, like, them in little, like, in stationery stores and places like that. And so, you know, I really. I really knew that I wanted to create a cover for specialty sales, and I think it really benefited me in the end.

Do you do anything to facilitate that, or is that the publisher pushing for that, or is that, like, the book being good? And so people just naturally discover it and say, we want to put this in our store.

So I really wanted to be involved in that part. I really wanted. I wanted a. I wanted a meeting with the sales team, and I wanted to talk to them how to sell the book. And I wanted to really be involved in that. And they kind of wouldn't let me. I just don't think it's traditionally how authors are involved. And so it does kind of feel like a distant arm from the editor world, like, from the editors that I dealt with, which is kind of strange for me because I'm just Like, well, why don't I go and talk to them how to sell the book? You know, and they don't want to talk to you. So I was just kind of like, okay. But, yeah, I did try to get involved. I did try to get involved and really talk to them and how to pitch it and who to pitch it to. And I really. I really pushed for that. And there was some resistance, you know, I don't know why. I just. I have no idea.

Sure. Just maybe the way the industry works. So when you. When Target, like, buys 30,000 or whatever, are you seeing that on a royalty statement? Because my guess is if you sell 110,000, you're at the point now where you're actually getting royalties for that continually, which is really cool. I have a friend who's written a really successful business book, and he talked about when you write a book that does well, it's the ultimate source of passive income because it's like you're not really working. The book is then living on its own and existing. Yeah.

Especially with a publisher, because you're really just like, not involved at all. Like, you're just. You have no idea what's going on. So you just get checks. I just get direct deposits every six months. And I'm like, wow, okay, great. Yeah. So I earned out of the $50,000 that was given to me from the advance pretty early on. I think I would say that I earned out within a year, maybe. And after, I think collectively, if I add everything up, including the advance, I've probably gotten around 150, 160,000 in total, which I think is a lot of times what agents will try and do is they'll try and get you the most from an advance so that you never even earn out. So just because you don't earn out doesn't mean it's a bad thing. There's a lot of really successful authors that never earn out, but that just means that they got really sizable great advance.

Yeah.

Yeah. And the publishers still make tons of money off of the books, so, yeah, I earned out pretty quickly. And I started getting royalty checks every six months, and I still get them. I mean, I got one back in May and it was great. You're just like, oh, this is awesome.

And my hope is that you time your Tuesday manicure right after Monday, direct deposit check from those just so you can really make that.

Wow. Yeah.

This is truly paying dividends.

Yeah.

But I think it's what's encouraging to hear about your story is this idea of, like, you know what? You go through it, you learn, and then you get after it and say, I want to. I want to. I've learned from this, and I want to do it again, and I want to do it even better. And you were able to do that. One of the questions that I have for you is now you have proven that you've been able to do this, to do it well, to have a successful cookbook. Look, this was, you know, you said five, six years ago, what's. Would you do it again? And if so, why? And if not, why?

Yeah. Yes, I will do it again. I will do it, I think, soon again. I think it took me a while to. I needed a break from it, and for a while, I was sort of like, well, I kind of succeeded at it, so I don't want to do it again. You know, like, I figured it out, like, moving on to something new. And there is a big part of me, like, I like, change, and I like things that are different. So I get bored easily. So it's like, I don't really want to do that again. I already proved myself, like, I'm done. But now I think I'm in a different season of my life, and enough time has passed, and now I can kind of see doing a book and how I would make it work with my current business and the way it is, which has changed a lot. I don't have as much time to dedicate to a book where I'm doing every single little tiny thing. Like, this time, I would hire an editor to help me kind of organize it. I would hire a photographer, and I would, you know, I would hire some recipe testers to, like, make sure everything is succinct and done right, which also would mean that I would need a bigger advance.

Sure. Yeah. All of those things kind of roll up. Yeah.

Yeah. So I'm warming. At first, I really didn't have that much to say. I was like, well, I don't really have anything to write about. But now I feel like enough time has passed where I have different perspective and I have a lot. I feel like I have a lot more to say. So I am revving up to possibly come up with a new cookbook idea and send it out to some publishers and see what happens. I'm excited about having taken that break and writing something that I can feel really proud about. And I think that that's what was the big thing is, like, I just want to write something that I'm really proud about all the time. Because after that book, I Felt really happy and proud of what I put out into the world. And so I didn't want to put something out just to put it out.

Right. It's, it's almost like if you're a musician, to go back to that analogy, it's like you don't want to put out an album unless you have songs that you're excited for people to hear.

Yeah.

And if you're an author, you don't want to publish something if you don't have something exciting that you want to say.

Yeah. And I also, and I also wait for that.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I also come out with cook like recipes all the time, you know, so. And like, because I have this other medium, I have this other platform like social media and a blog, it's like, well, Mike, I'll just say I'll just write a recipe. But I didn't, I also didn't want to just come out with a cookbook where it's just a bunch of recipes. I wanted it to be, I still want it to be. I don't want to do DIYs ever again because it's just so difficult to do. And I'm at the stage also in my life where I'm like, I'm not going to DIY something, I'm just going to buy it. Let's be honest, I'm past that. So I don't want to do that anymore. I do want it to stay to food, but I do again, I do want to create a world. I do want to have something to say. I do want it to be a non linear story. I do want it to feel like you're stepping into a world and I want it to feel really great and I want it to feel different than anything that I put out there for free or on my blog or on social media. So I think I'm kind of going towards that where I'm like, oh, I think I'm warming up to this idea. I think I have something to say.

Like that that is starting to look like a possibility.

Absolutely. And you know, I think because I've, I've, I've sold a good amount of, you know, cookbooks before. I am like sort of a proven concept, I guess, or whatever now. And I have my social media following and my blog number. So I'm hoping that that means that I get like, you know, a substantial amount of money because I feel like I earned it.

Yeah, well, totally. And it's one of the things that comes with doing something to come back all the way around.

Yeah.

For 12, 13 years is like the ability for that to be your time and energy and work that you've done over decades, like a decade plus then pays dividends with you being able to come to the table and say, like, here's the. It's not just like the work itself, it's like the work of the product. Plus 13 years of showing up every day and connecting with people and building an audience and all of that. So I know that people are going to be deeply appreciative of your story and also sharing, like, specifically what things look like. I think it's a rare thing that people are able to do and so just really appreciate that. I think it makes it so much more tangible and tactical and helpful. So thank you for your willingness to do that. I know that people are going to be interested also in following along with you, checking out the cookbook itself, both of them. But where can.

Where can people follow along with you.

Adriana, and see what you're up to?

Well, you can find me at my blog. I post recipes every week. A Cozy kitchen dot com. And then you can also follow me on social media. I'm on TikTok cozykitchen.com and then also on Instagram. A cozy kitchen.

I this will be my last question for you as. As somebody who has been publishing content for 10 plus years, were you like initially resistant to TikTok or was it like, you know what, being a video person, being like comfortable being in front of the camera, like, bring it on.

No, I was not resistant at all. I was one of the. I was. I jumped on it during the pandemic, at the beginning of the pandemic because I was really bored and I opened up TikTok and I was like, oh, this is kind of fun. And then I was like, maybe I should cut a video together. And so I cut a video and then I got like, like all of this response and all of this feedback and I was like, oh, this is kind of fun.

Totally.

I actually really have always really taken to TikTok and I've always loved video content. TikTok actually really taught me how to make video content in a way that I really liked, which was doing a bit of vo a little to camera. Like I didn't have to do this, like traditional, like to camera talk through every single step because I felt like that seemed really cumbersome to do all by myself. So I really like the idea that I could just shoot how I like how I make the recipe and then do like add voiceover and it could be funny and it could have personality. And so I'm actually one of the rare OG bloggers that really loves it. Yeah. Loves TikTok. And I love. And I love reels. I love Instagram reels.

So, you know, yeah, you're in a good place. And it reflects like 500,000 followers on Instagram and you have 250,000 on TikTok. And so it's a reflection of like, like you being good at that. And it's a good place to be. Like, as things shift and change and go more towards real and video content, it's a good place to be. So, Adriana, thanks so much for coming on the podcast. Really fun to have a conversation with you. Appreciate it.

Thank you so much for having me.

Hey.

Hey.

Alexa here from the Food Blogger Pro team. We hope you enjoyed this episode of the Food Blogger Pro podcast. Thank you for tuning in. I wanted to let you know that we have a live Q and A coming up. We typically have a live Q A every single month for our Food Blogger Pro community, for our Food Blogger Pro members. And if you're not a member or maybe you're a new member of the community, maybe you don't know what they are. So I wanted to give you a quick rundown on what you could expect from a live Q and A at Food Block Blogger Pro. So, like I mentioned, we have one per month. And in these live Q&As, we typically focus on a specific topic. So whether that be photography, SEO, WordPress, developing recipes, we kind of COVID everything and anything on these live Q&As. And then Bjork, or sometimes Bjork and a guest and industry expert come on and answer all of our community's questions live. So our community submits questions and then then Bjork and whoever is joining him in that specific Q and A will answer the questions live. And all of our past live Q&As are available for all members, so they are just such a great time. And we love being able to connect in a way that's sort of face to face in a virtual setting. So if you're interested in joining our next Q and A and you're not already a member, be sure to head over to foodbloggerpro.com join so you can learn a little bit more about the community and sign up there. And then if you are already a member of the community, Hello.

Hello.

We hope to see you at our next one soon. And you can head over to the Live tab whenever you log into the site to get access and register for our next live Q and A. So thanks again for tuning into this episode of the podcast. We appreciate you so much and we'll see you next time. Make it a great week.

Sa.