385: Teaching Cooking Classes in Your Community as a Food Creator with Ashley Covelli

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Hello. Hello. You are listening to the Food Blogger Pro podcast. This is Leslie from the Food Blogger Pro team and today we're really excited to share this interview with Ashley Covelli. She is the blogger behind the site Big Flavors From a Tiny Kitchen and she has actually been blogging since 2006, which is just so incredible. So in this interview she chats with Bjork all about how she got started with her site, but the main focus of the conversation is about these cooking classes that she's done both in person and virtually in her local community. So she's actually partnered with local libraries to run cooking classes and she's been doing them for a couple years now. So she's learned a lot along the way about what equipment to use when running cooking classes, how to get more comfortable, comfortable on camera, what information you need to provide people attending, whether that's the recipe, what equipment they need and so forth. You'll hear all about her entire process and why she loves doing cooking classes, as well as why it's a great revenue stream for her. She talks a little bit about the different income streams she has for her business, and cooking classes actually make up a large portion of that. Before we jump into it, though, I wanted to mention something very exciting, and that's our Cyber Monday sale on a Food Blogger Pro membership. So this sale is going to run until Wednesday, November 30, and if you take advantage of this sale, you can actually get $100 off an annual Food Blogger Pro membership. So our membership is normally $350 a year, but until tomorrow, you can take advantage of an annual membership for only $250. And if you continue your membership year after year, you'll be locked into that $250 price as well. So in case you're not familiar with the Food Blogger Pro membership, if you sign up, you get instant access to all of our courses, our deals and discounts, our community forum, monthly live Q&As with industry experts, as well as coaching calls with Bjork that will be launching in the new year. So you get access to all of that when you sign up for a membership. And we would just love to have you join the community. So if you'd like to take advantage of this deal and sign up for FoodBlogger Pro and save $100 on a membership, you can head to foodbloggerpro.com cyber to learn more and join. All right, all that being said, let's jump into today's interview with Ashley Bjork. Take it away.

Ashley. Welcome to the podcast.

Thank you so much. Bjork. Yeah, long time listener, first time caller.

Yeah, totally. We've exchanged messages and, you know, have had some back and forth as you do online and rare to then be able to connect with those people that you usually interact with just via messages and emails and whatnot to jump on a call and have a conversation. But we're having a conversation because you know this world well. This world meaning publishing content online, running a, running an online business, because you've been doing it for a long time. You started in 2006, which I think when I think of the hundreds of podcast interviews we've done, I don't know if there's anybody who's ever started a site that we've had a conversation with in 2006. My guess it was, it wasn't WordPress. As a matter of fact, we had this conversation before. So the, the, the platform was was different than what we normally think of. Even, like, different than blogger. Tell us a little bit about how you got started.

I started on LiveJournal, actually, and it was because I was at. I did graphic design for a living and I wasn't feeling creatively stimulated at my job. So I was like, I'm just gonna start taking pictures of food because we have to eat. I might as well make it look pretty. And I had, you know, I went to art school, so I had photography experience and all that, which. But back then it was not good. It was like on a flip phone. But I would just post on LiveJournal to share with my family back in the Midwest. I live in New York now. Just like, hey, look, I'm cooking things and it's cool. And then years later, I moved to blogger before I went self hosted.

Yep, cool. On WordPress. It's always fun to have those conversations about, like, you know, pre2010. What did that look like? Cause it's so different for so many people. And the name your site, Big Flavors, Tiny Kitchen. That comes from having a tiny kitchen, I would guess.

Yeah. And we've, we've talked about moving and I'm like, at this point, the site name will stay the same if I ever get a big kitchen, because Big flavors from a tiny kitchen, it just, it's been here long enough.

Right.

And I, you know, I've established an llc. I think it's, it's worth keeping it.

Yeah. So tell us about what that journey has looked like. So you started, you know, just posting pictures, kind of what you're eating, kind of like a hobby, a little bit like, hey, I want to do something a little bit creative. But, you know, if you could kind of chunk that out into different steps or stages along the way. What did that look like for you over the last, like 15 plus years?

I know it's like ancient in the terms of like online things, but, you know, I just started. I was trying other people's recipes and I would just write everything. I'd be like, I made this recipe today. And we thought this. I used to be a really picky eater, so it was a way for me to try new ingredients. And I was really determined, especially after moving to New York, to kind of give things a good try. Like something I wouldn't eat. Previously, I didn't used to eat seafood. Now I eat pretty much everything. So I would try it in a bunch of different ways before I would rule it out that I don't like it. So I just Kind of was doing that for a few years and then I can't remember at what point brands started like, hey, do you want this free thing to talk about? And way back then it was like, I absolutely will totally, you know, do this and post about it.

Coolest thing ever. Yeah.

Oh, my gosh. Like, yeah, getting like, you're going to send me barbecue sauce, like, you know, and then I think it was like 2013, I reached out to this yogurt brand that I used to, you know, use in the kitchen a lot because we eat a ton of yogurt. And I saw that they had like a blogger team or like ambassadors. So I reached out to them and they had like two different groups. One was for moms and one was for just like regular recipes. And at that point I had a toddler at home. I had quit my full time job. I was, you know, working part time from home, and I was like, hey, can I join this thing? And I applied and I think I was the only or one of the only people that was in both of those blogger groups. So I started doing actual sponsored work for them and kind of got out from there to some other brands.

So at that point, that was kind of the first step into like, oh, this can be a thing where I can get paid to create content and post it online.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. And did that kind of spark then the idea of, like, hey, I'm going to kind of pursue this in a way that maybe I wouldn't have if not for that experience?

Yeah. I think once I started doing, you know, I had joined a couple of the blogger ad networks where you could like, you know, pitch to different brands or be considered. And once I started doing that, occasionally I liked the creative challenge because it gives you some sort of parameters to work within. Instead of just like, make whatever you want with whatever you want, it's like you need to use this ingredient and it needs to be fall themed. So I kind of liked that challenge. And. And once I started doing that more, I was like, okay, so I could actually probably make decent money off of this.

And the interesting thing, you know, we had some conversations as we were talking about the podcast is as you've kind of grown your site and grown the business, you've started to think strategically about where you'll focus on in different areas. And usually people would think about, okay, we're going to have ad income, so we'll make money from that. Affiliate income, maybe sponsorships like you've talked about, but you've kind of broken into a Unique area where you're partnering with libraries. Is that right? What does that look like? And how did that idea come up?

So, actually, years before I was ready to do it, I had a librarian at my. I used to do the rounds with, like, story times and everything with my son. So I got to know all the librarians, and one of them asked me, hey, I know you have a food website. Would you want to teach classes at the library? And I was like, oh, no, I could never. I'm not a chef, whatever. And they kind of kept prodding me about it. So it was 2018. I decided. I was like, okay, I'll do a demo kind of thing. I think we did Christmas cookie or holiday cookie decorating. So I baked a bunch of cookies at home, brought them into the library, and, like, had a bunch of parents that came and we all decorated them together, had them help me make the icing, and it was a lot of fun, and they really enjoyed it. And then we did, like, a cheese board demo that, you know, I always put weight. I put so much work into the back end of it. It was probably, you know, they paid me, but it wasn't sure necessarily, like, the right balance.

Yeah, I feel like a lot of the first time you do a lot of those things, that's when you learn, like, because somebody pitches you on it and it's like, oh, this would be really cool. I think sponsored content for a lot of bloggers is this. Hey, we'll pay you whatever the amount is. $250 when you're starting out. It's, like, awesome. Like, I'd be creating content anyways, but then I get this kind of additional money for it. But then once you get into it, you realize, like, there's a lot of back and forth and you're reviewing contracts and not that you have this big contract with libraries, but, like, you realize how much goes into it and how much work it actually is, which then allows you to approach it differently next time around. So is that what it was for you? That first. Those first few times were kind of like, oh, this is actually a lot of work.

Yeah, well, and I think because I'm. I kind of, like, I want to do everything myself. Like, I don't. I'm like, oh, no, I can do this. Like, I could add on extra things or we could. You know, I just kind of had to learn where to step it back. And because I had worked in a creative department, I know what goes into, like, ad budgets. Not for libraries, but, like, sponsored work wise. But, yeah, and then I started doing just with the one library in my town, shout out to Ossining, New York, if anybody's listening. From there I started doing classes with the Teen Room. So after school they had this program where we would come in and we would cook together. But it's on like a little push cart with a hot plate and it's not like you're in a professional kitchen or anything.

Yeah.

So, yeah, it was a different vibe, but it was a lot of fun and it was, you know, attention that the kids might not necessarily get at home. Focused on something that's like a useful skill. And I'm a big nerd. I like video games and stuff. So, like, we got along. Yeah.

One of the things that I think a lot about with the work that we're doing is like, what is the impact that we're having? And I think all of us when we're producing things in the world have the ability to have impact, whether that's producing something online but or in person. The hard thing with online is sometimes you don't see that, like this podcast. And as an example, you know, if you have thousands of people who listen, there might be somebody who takes something away, impacts how they think about things, maybe they change the way that they're going to operate in the world. But you don't often hear those stories and you definitely don't get to see the people as they're consuming that and interacting with it. One of the benefits it feels like of doing an in person event like that is it's so much more personable. Like you get to interact with people in a different way and you get to hear from people in a different way. You get to see kind of the light bulb moment when somebody realizes how to do a thing. And. Yeah, and that's like really meaningful. And you know, one of the things we talk about on this podcast a lot is income. But one of the things that I think is important to remember is there's different types of income. There's relational income, there's monetary income, there's, you know, impact income, these things that we can, these deposits that we can have. And for myself, I found it important to think about what are those other ways that I'm seeking to have the work that I'm creating make deposits.

Right.

And it feels like that's a way where it gets both, it's both of those things. Right. Like it's a, it's a source of revenue for your business, but it's also a way to have an impact in A very significant way.

It really is. And I had done actually in February of 2020 with another town, the word kind of started getting out that I was doing these library programs and I spoke with a librarian who they were doing a winter camp for elementary aged kids. And that particular town, a lot of those kids don't necessarily have resources at home to do so it was like one side of the class was computer coding and then they would do art projects and then I would have one group and we would do cooking together and then they would swap. So like everybody kind of got this like well rounded creative and engineering and cooking stuff. And we did it for three days and it was, it was a lot of work, but it was super rewarding because there was, there was even a kid with allergies who she just so wanted to be part of something. Like she couldn't touch certain ingredients. And I had to make sure with her mom, like, are you sure that this is. She wore gloves, but they were just so sweet. And I was gonna do a week long summer camp with them in 2020, but that, that did not happen.

And that's kind of things in 2020.

Yeah.

So what does that look like for you now in terms of your day to day or maybe week to week? Is that something you're doing on a consist, consistent basis?

Yeah. So now I've moved to virtual. I did that back in like 2020 when I realized I wasn't going to be able to do in person anymore. And I kind of found virtual classes. I mean, yes, there is, it's great to interact with people, but I find with kids, teenagers and adults, not just with one doing something in my kitchen. And you're cooking in your kitchen, the next time you go to do it, you'll say like, oh yeah, I remember when I made these waffles with Ashley. I had to go get this, which was over here in my kitchen. Or you know, just. It's not the same as if you're in an industrial kitchen or you're at a library with a push cart and you know, a really weird convection oven. You know, it's. So I find that it's a little more repeatable and it's something that can really help them to feel empowered in their house when they come back and like cook with their families. Yeah.

So is that through the library still?

So yeah, I, right now I think I'm working with maybe seven different libraries.

And it allows you to do that because you're not having to travel.

So yeah. And I mean, I'm I'm. So far, I'm just sticking within my county, pretty much. I have one that is going to come on next year that's a little more north of here. But, yeah, I'm able to not have to track ingredients down. The library doesn't have to pay for ingredients, so it's good for them because when I would do them in person, you know, they'd have to buy all the supplies. But, yeah, I'm able to kind. And I'm also able to. If I do a class with your library and say we're making sloppy joes and green beans, I can do that same class with another library without basically reinventing the wheel, which is nice because at first it was a lot of create all these programs, make sure it's different and exciting every time. And that's a lot of work up front.

Yeah. So what does that look like? What does it look like to do a virtual cooking class? Is it done through zoom? I'm curious to hear the operational stuff, but also kind of the softer skills of how you pull off a cooking class.

Well, yeah, so what I typically do is a library. Either I'll partner with them for, like, a couple months at a time and we'll do one class a month, or we'll just do one offs and they'll come to me and. And sometimes they'll have a theme. They'll say, hey, we're looking for something for Hispanic Heritage Month or, you know, something Christmassy or whatever. And I'll. I mean, usually. I mean, at this point, they all know me. They're just like, I trust whatever I send them, but I'll propose whatever the class I want to do is. So, like, this week we did chili and corn muffins. And so I pitched it like a, you know, like a cozy winter comfort food type of class. I put together a recipe packet. I put my. This is what I use my graphic design skills for now, is I put together a PDF and it lists, like, any. Any special notes, like, if there's an ingredient that could be tricky to find, or you could substitute what equipment you need. So, like, you're gonna need a baking sheet, you're gonna need measuring cups, whatever, and then recipe cards so that they can feel prepared and people can either cook along with me, I love when they do, or they can watch. Watch it later. So usually with a library, they'll send out the zoom information for everybody. So that kind of helps me because for a while I was trying to do them myself and trying to promote them and do all the things when you're a one person show a lot, it's hard.

So is the library then? Is it like listed as an activity that people can sign up for? They're promoting it. And then you come in as talent and run the event.

Yeah. So usually one of the librarians. Not always, but usually one of them will sit in there and like as the host and I'll be the co host.

Sure.

I now I do two cameras. So I have one overhead over my cutting board and one, you know, three quarters. My kitchen again is very small, so it's like I can't get a straight on view. But yeah, so we'll do a zoom. It's a lot of moving parts at first, but once you get used to it and get in a routine, it's just kind of second nature. And then they'll list them on their website. Usually like a library will have an events page and then I have an events page on my website that just lists all my events in one place so that they often don't mind if people from other areas sign up. So you don't have to live in Austin to go to a program. They're just like, libraries are such a good resource. I'm such a fan girl. It's a, it's a really, it's, it's great.

We, when we were in the Philippines for a year, one of the things that I realized when I came back is like, man, there are some really incredible public services that we have. Libraries being one of them.

Yeah.

Like you go in, it's just like these beautiful buildings. You can get all of these resources for free. Like.

Yeah.

Whether it's books or movies or you know, music that you can check out. So. Yeah, right there with you. And classes. Like. Yeah, this is an example where you can go through a class and learn. So if nothing else, just a shout out to libraries and a reminder of that as a resource for people.

And cookbooks, I mean I, for a bit, I'm not doing anymore, but for a bit I was doing a cookbook program with my library too, virtually, where we would have a theme and we would talk about cookbooks. And it's like some people don't realize you can get those from a library. And it's like if you, if you have, especially if you have short amount of space, it's a great way to test drive a cookbook and see if you're into it before you buy it.

Yeah, that's awesome.

And it's there, you know.

Totally. So I see on your events Page. It looks like you are doing a class maybe once a week, once every two weeks. Are you repeating classes or is. Is every class kind of one that you build from scratch, depending on the season? What does that look like?

So I broke. I actually broke it down before this. I was like, I'm curious. I almost burned myself out on classes previously because, you know, I don't like saying no. If it's a library that, you know, wants to do something, I'm. It just, it's. It's so much fun, but it's a lot of setup and everything. So. Quarter one this year, I did 13 different library classes. If it's with the same library and the same age group, I won't repeat the class. I mean, at this point, I've been doing it for, you know, almost, almost three years. So maybe, maybe now they would want the same because it would be a different group if it was kids or something. But so far I haven't repeated. But I'll repeat it with a different library. So like, I did a class last night with ossining that I'm going to do the same class in Rye in January.

Okay, got it. Yep. So you can use it for different libraries.

Yeah. So I did 13. I did 14 in quarter two this year. Quarter three. I only taught two classes in June because July and August I took off nice from teaching. I did other work, but my kitchen air conditioning doesn't get in there. And I turned 40 over the summer and I took a trip. I was like, I need some time off. And that was kind of a good reset because it can get. You can burn out trying to be on especially I have to set up. We don't have great lighting, so I had to set up lighting equipment, my tripods, cramming that all in the tiny space. So it's just. And I can't do dishes while I go. That's the biggest setback like time wise is I can't do dishes while I go because nobody wants to watch me wash dishes except maybe my husband. I don't know. So it's, it's a lot of extra time. It's not just the hour class. It's a significant amount prepping for it and all that.

Yeah. What does, in terms of equipment you had talked about two cameras, Is it one computer that you're doing? Or like, what does the, what does the setup look like for that?

So I have a laptop that I put on top of the base of this Persian tea maker that my dad brought me from Iran because I needed it to be a little higher and that's it. Kind of like a, like a, like a 3/4 type of view. On one of my cameras counters, I have an overhead like monopod type of thing that I can do with my, my phone now.

Sure.

I've got a, a light panel that I use. That's great because you can control it with an app so you can change the light temperature and presets so that I have to set up so that I can actually people can see me.

Do you know what that light panel is, what it's called?

I do and I have another one.

In here and if not we can link to it in the show notes too.

Yeah, I definitely. Because I had a different one and it broke after not using it too long because I used two for shooting video. And the new one is even better because of the app and everything.

Yeah.

To be able to control it.

Yeah. And to save like, you know, color temperature is different at different times of the year. And then I have a lab mic that I clip on through the computer.

Yep. Nice.

Yeah.

So to your point, like it's not just that hour. There's some, there's prep that has to go into it. You have to have all the stuff ready. My guess is to some degree I have ingredients ready, all of that stuff laid out. Would you have a guest start to finish? How long it ends up taking in terms of like one class?

Well, so I, I mean outside of like prepping the materials, if it's recipes that I've already made, they're already on my website or it's just something that I've made a lot. The materials don't take me too long to put together. If I'm developing a new recipe, it could take quite a while. Classes, I usually I set an alarm for myself an hour and a half before I get all the lighting and everything set up and all the non refrigerated ingredients. So depending on the complexity of the recipe, you know, maybe 20, 30 minutes. And then I have another alarm that goes off 15 minutes before class. So I'll pull out anything that's cold.

Nice. Yep.

And then after dishes just stink.

Yeah.

You know we have, we have a dishwasher, but it's a tiny one so it's like it only fits like maybe six plates.

And you know better than no dishwasher. And then, and then. Yeah, it's one of our dishwasher went out for a few months and you realize quickly how nice it is to have a dishwasher. And then the other question about the classes that I had. So you've been doing with the libraries at a pretty consistent basis where you can do one or two a week if that's what you're wanting to do sustainably. Have you ever thought about doing like your own cooking classes for, you know, blog followers or like, like selling a cooking class or is it nice to have the kind of built in audience that a library has?

So, yes, and I was doing that for a while and it was hard to keep attendance at a level where when you're doing it like that, you're doing a per ticket price. And I was using air subs when that first came out, which was great. Then they went out of business. So I have like a. I kind of hacked a way around it where I would sell a ticket through Gumroad and I can keep the materials there. And I still do that sometimes and then I still do it through Zoom. But I actually. Somebody who had come to several of my library classes with one of the local libraries, she was reaching out to me over the summer. She's like, hey, I noticed there's not much coming up on your events page. Me and my son really love cooking with you. And she was asking if I cooked in people's homes. I said no, if I would sell the food that I make. And I was like, I don't have a professional kitchen. I mean, it's lovely and it's very flattering, but it ended up turning into. She asked if I do private classes and I said yes. So now we've been doing like almost weekly, basically whenever I have time. So I'm cooking with her and she's somebody who loves different types of food, but is a little kind of hesitant in the kitchen.

Sure.

Like, she doesn't. She has, I think, five kids. She doesn't cook meat. And I asked if it was a dietary thing and she said she's afraid that she's not gonna cook it right and like make her family sick. So in working with me, we've done things like we did sloppy joes together and I had her. We did two batches and one we used beyond meat and one she cooked turkey for the first time. And like I walked her through. She could show me on her camera, I could show her what mine looks like. And so just like empowering her to do that, like, it was just. It was so awesome.

And that's virtual as well? Yeah, yeah. It's one of the things that I think is great with that is thinking creatively around what does it look like to Create an income from doing this as a business. And there's lots of different ways. There's probably hundreds of ways. If you really sat down and think, thought about all the different ways that you could do it. And one of the best ways is like that where you have somebody who has a need and you have a skill that you can teach them and you pair those together and that's like a really beneficial, helpful thing in the world. So.

And it feels good because there's so many things that we do that like. I mean, I fought putting ads on my website for the longest time just because I don't like how they look personally. But I did it several years ago and now it's like the majority. You know, it's a good chunk of my income and has been for several years. And I'm like, man, I can't think of what, how much would I have made if I did it sooner? But you know, but this, with this particular client, it's great because she was doing things with me for free. So when I do a program with a library, people can attend for free. The library pays me. It's a, you know, but when I do them on my own, it's like a ticketed price or per session. So it's just, it's, it's nice that she went from doing free with me to, hey, I'm gonna pay you.

Yep.

Like pretty much weekly, you know.

That's awesome.

Yeah.

What does that look like for you from a business perspective? Like if you were to as a percentage basis, kind of look at where income sources are for you, being that you have multiple varieties of that, what does that look like if you were to break it down?

So I tallied it up. Cause I was like, I feel like this might be an interesting thing this year so far. Ad Network is about 45% of my income. Classes are close to 30 sponsored content, which I started doing again kind of a little bit last year and then this year. Cause I had to step it back once my son was home during school during the whole pandemic. So sponsored is about 16% right now. And then the rest like 2% is affiliate.

Sure. Yep. And the great thing about that is you have something that not a lot of other people have in that kind of pie chart, which is those classes. And it's anytime you have anything like finance related, it's helpful to have diversification. And what you've done is you've diversified. And so if like some dreaded Google algorithm update comes by and traffic drops, like you're not out of business because you have these income sources that aren't reliant on traffic like you. It's, it's offline, it's using same skills and abilities and you know, all of the kind of components of what make you successful publishing content online, but in a different, in a different way. And I think that it's kind of like a sleep well at night consideration for sure. For some people to say, like, how do you diversify and make sure that you're kind of protected from downside in certain areas. So if people are, let's say somebody's interested in that, they're like, gosh, that sounds kind of cool. Whether one on one, one to many, or one with like a client who then facilitates. Like in the case of a library, what do you feel like are the skills that either you've developed or that you naturally have that allow you to do what you do? Well, because my guess is you wouldn't go from one library to two libraries to six, you know, continually have people showing up if you didn't have something that allowed you to do that well. So it's a little bit weird because you have to talk about like your own skills and abilities. But if you were to just slow it down, what would that be?

Well, it's interesting because kind of doing things on camera live was something I pushed back on for a long time. And I actually I been a food blogger pro member for many years. And I did the video editing course and I shot this beautiful video that I still have not edited together because Perfectionism, sure. But I went on a press trip in 2019, I think 2018 or 2019, and we were doing a cooking competition for the guest judge was a from Food Network and they have live cameras there with us. So I was like, you know what? I have to get over my fears and I have to do something live. And I realized you don't have the time to make everything perfect. You just have to roll with it. You have to be able to laugh at yourself because mistakes happen. Like the class I taught the other night, I kept dropping things on the floor and I'm just like, all right, well this decided. It wants to jump off the counter today. Okay.

And it becomes, it's. Yeah. Well, maybe you're going to say this. People like it.

Yeah.

Like, oh, yeah, it's. It's part of what makes it good.

Yeah. Well, and like I, with my photography and everything, I just, I really have these perfectionist tendencies that I try to think published is better than perfect. And you know, you have to just go for it. But every time I do a class, and this is my son's favorite thing, I shoot a video on my phone, just a quick video for Instagram Stories. And I take cooking class aftermath. And I show my kitchen because it's a disaster because I can't clean as I go. And just showing people like, it's not always pretty, pretty, pretty, or being authentic and saying, I'm teaching this class on this recipe. My son won't eat this part because if a potato has a texture that he doesn't like, even though he'll eat paella, he won't eat a potato. You know what I mean? People want to be able to relate to you, though. I think being relatable is a huge part and being genuinely interested in helping other people, like succeed or do something out of their comfort zone.

Yeah.

Or just being there for people. I mean, some people just come and watch. They don't necessarily cook along. And I love it. I, you know, I'm happy to talk about food or whatever, you know.

Yep. Yeah. It, it, it's almost like the skill is a certain level of comfort with, on things being unpolished and a willingness to kind of roll with the punches and to say like, hey, this is good enough. It's not perfect. In a departure from if you are somebody who's used to, you know, photography as an example, or even like video editing, like, you're able to work towards perfection because you can reshoot, you can edit, you can change, you can crop, but if you're doing something live, you don't have any of those options. And so you need to be, be able to get more comfortable with that.

Yeah. So it was like a forced comfort and I think it was really good for me. And prior to that, when I had a full time graphic design job, I was working on print campaigns. So things that were going to be on billboards or on TV or printed. And so once it's out, it's out. You can't change it. Um, so yeah.

Yeah. What, what do you feel like you had to do in order to get to a level where you were comfortable with that? Like, was it a mindset thing? Was it just exposure therapy where you just like after pressing, you know, start on zoom enough times that it got to the level that you're comfortable and then I'd be curious to hear you talk about what that's like for you now. Do you still feel some anticipation?

I think exposure therapy for sure. And also like the, I guess the fact that the first time I cooked on camera in front of somebody, it was somebody of a level that like I would have never thought that I would have cooked for. So the end, just seeing that, like we were able to have like a really authentic conversation while. While I'm trying to do something within a time limit. So that was like a lot. And after that I was like, you know, that's not so scary. And so before I started teaching classes online, I came home and I was like, I'm just going to start going on Facebook Live. So for a while I was doing just for free, just for my followers, like at noon every day, because I work from home, I'm going to make lunch on Facebook Live. Like, come join me. And that was great. And it got me comfortable in front of the camera before I started doing classes.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, because it was kind of a class and I would print out. Like, I still print out. Because I'm like, what if technology fails me? I print out the recipe just in case. Even if I've done it a million times, I don't want to get an ingredient or an amount.

Yeah, yeah. It's nice to be able to step into something where stakes are a little bit lower. And in that case it's like Facebook Live. It's a little bit more casual. It's not like an official class and that people are signing up for it and it allows you to kind of get a feel for what that's like. Exactly. So but it's still live. Like, it's not like you're talking into a void and nobody's there. So that's great.

Yeah, for sure.

When you think of kind of dividing your time, one of the things that I'd be curious to hear you reflect on a little bit is like, how do you approach that? Because, you know, you. We all have these responsibilities. A lot of us might have kids that were taken care of or if not that, you know, family or just day to day responsibilities. You've talked about your son like. Yeah, but then you also have classes, but you're producing content for your blog as well. Yeah. Maybe you're doing some sponsored content. What does that look like for you to navigate these different kind of components of the business and to make sure that you kind of attend to them all.

That is a great question and one that is very difficult. I found that my best process happens if I time block and there was some quiz and I can't recall what site it was on, but it was like, what's your best time management Strategy, like, is it pomodoro? Is it time blocking? And mine, I had a feeling would be time blocking, but just sitting down and saying, like, okay, for a while, I did it. By days of the week, I'd be like, okay, on Mondays, I'm gonna edit photos and if I finish somehow, I'll go on to. You know, I'd have like two different things. So instead of. For one blog post, shooting it, editing it, trying to do everything in one day, I would try to batch that type of stuff. So time blocking is a big help. I say, as much as I'd love to say I have it figured out, it just varies and life happens. So I have things that I shot for Thanksgiving last year that I'm hoping to get up before Thanksgiving, which is one week from today. Like, I just, like, stuff happens. And I think part of it is being like, showing yourself a little grace and being like, you know what? Like you're doing all these things and it's a lot. So time blocking for sure helps, though.

And how do you. How do you do that? Is that every week you look ahead and say, block off a section of time and say, like, this is what I'm going to focus on at this time.

I try to. And I've. I've tried to. I started quarterly, trying to do like all of my newsletters. So I was the worst at sending newsletters for the longest time because I personally hate getting emails. Like, it's too. It's too overwhelming. But then I worked with Ali from Duet and she kind. She got me. She helped me get to a headspace where I didn't dread it. And then I realized what's good for me is if I can write newsletters for the whole quarter once a week. I don't want to do more than once a week, but get for the whole quarter and then it's done. And then I use co schedule to. I try. I'm a little behind right now, but I try to schedule quarterly social media shares just so that it helps me to. Then I don't have to worry about it. And then I see something, I'm getting comments. I'm like, oh, right, I set that up already. Like, that's, you know, and then it's. I'm not constantly trying to like, keep above water, but like, recently I've had a few sponsored video things come in, which I rewatched portions of that premiere course because I'm editing with Adobe Premier and now I'm able to do it. So I'm like, okay, go Back to that footage from a few years ago. But you know, that stuff comes in and there's a deadline, so that'll take priority. So just leaving yourself some flexibility. But I think if you can get into a good routine, like if I'm tired in the mornings, I'm not going to do my best writing in the morning. So maybe editing photos is best. Um, for me.

Yeah, yeah, it's in. In. Part of that is you learn over time what type of work you do best, in what time slots of the day. Yeah. And prioritizing those for that type of work. And also, you know, I know some people work best, like, hey, I'm gonna send something out tomorrow and I'm gonna write it today.

Yeah.

And that's just how they work. But then there's other people like yourself who are like, I know that I'm not gonna send something out unless I take a day and write 12 different newsletters for the quarter ahead. And that's how you're going to be able to get it done. So so much of it is self.

Awareness too, and templatizing things. Like I have. I was using the free version of. I used mailchimp. Now I'm using Mailerlite. I used the free version for a long time, but now I'm using a paid version. Because you can make templates. So I know I kind of try to rotate through types of emails. So if I'm focusing on one recipe, I have a template. So I know, like, I need to put a picture here, I need to put a little blurb here, and I need to do this here. And it's. Most of the work's already done. I just have to kind of plug in the pieces. Same with blog posts. Like, I don't use There's a Feast, I think. I don't use that theme, but the idea of they have kind of like a, you know, you need to put this type of thing here and then whatever. I made a reusable block that I use in Gutenberg that I put in my new post. And then I ungroup it and then I'm able to fill in just so I make sure I hit all the things. Like make sure you add step by step process photos.

Can you talk about that? When you say the Gutenberg block and then ungroup it, what do you mean by that?

So in WordPress, if you're using the block editor, which I fought for a very long time, I was like, very hard. Team classic editor, you can make these blocks that you can re basically a piece of content or a couple pieces grouped together that you can repurpose across multiple posts. But if you don't, you have to set it to a regular block if you want to be able to change it and not have it change in the other places where it is.

Sure. Got it.

So I have just placeholders, quick excerpt here, image. And then I have to make sure there's space before and after the images because I know that was something I think Media vine had told us to do. Just so I have all the pieces there. And like, you know, this is where the recipe card goes and this is where, you know, related posts should go.

Yep, yep. So it's kind of this like to your point, a template that you can kind of follow to reduce even like micro decision fatigue, which is like, how is this where what do I put here? And like to build that out in a way where you're not having to make those small decisions or even remind yourself of what it is. It's pre built in there.

Yeah. And just because even though I've been doing it forever, like the way things happen or are recommended has changed significantly over the years. So, you know, I have old posts that I go into and I'll make a copy and I'll add that template so that I can do those things. And I don't want to forget about putting in. I mean, I wouldn't forget to put in the recipe card, but you know, there's just certain things that you're not necessarily on autopilot with.

Yep, yep, that's great. And I think in general, as much as we can create a template to follow things, there's a really popular book, it's actually in the medical field or that's what it was based on. But Atul Gawande I think is his name and it's called the Checklist Manifesto.

Oh, I read that. Yeah.

Did you? Yeah. And the kind of sub header for it is how to get things Right. But I think about that a lot just with anything that we're doing in life. It's like if we can have a checklist that accompanies it. And the checklist can evolve over time as we realize things that need to change or be included or not included. Just what a difference that makes.

Well, and also checking things off just feels good. I was a big paper planner for a long time, but now I use good notes on an iPad with an Apple pencil. But I still can check things off.

And I'm just like, yes, it feels so good. Yeah, totally, totally. That's awesome.

I will say sorry. Coming up with systems and processes for the things that you do often is hugely helpful to make sure that you're not forgetting steps. Like when I was setting up classes on my own instead of with libraries, making sure that I got create the thumbnail and I create the, you know, the different components that go with it. So I started doing Google Docs. And then if I ever decide to outsource that to somebody, they can just follow my process that I have. Because even if you think, you know, the order that something goes through when you're doing it, if you actually, like, take notes as you're doing it, you're like, oh, right, I forgot to add the fact that I do this every time.

Yes.

Yeah.

Where do you store those? Like, if you create a checklist.

Google Drive.

Yeah, yeah. If you have a Google, like, doc that has it or Google Sheet.

Yeah, yeah. I try to, like, you know, title them smartly. And then for a while I had things all over the place. I'd have notes, I'd have, like, paper, like handwritten things. But I'm trying to keep them all together in, like, a font. So if I have ones particular, like, specific to classes or blog posts or video editing.

Yep, that makes sense. The other thing that's really smart with that is even if you're working on your own, it supports you in the next time you come around to do something, you can see like, okay, this is how it's done. You don't have to think of it. We talk a lot about this idea that the brains are really bad place to store things. It's a really good place to think creatively. And so as much as you can store things in other, like, digital places, kind of a second brain, the better off you're going to be. But then you're also building in a system. If there is ever somebody who comes in to help with a certain thing, you can say, great, like, here's the exact process that you can follow to go through this and be successful with it.

Yeah, and we did that in my graphic design job too. We would have a brand guide. And, you know, these are the fonts you use, and this is the size of type you use, and these are the colors. And it just really helps to keep things consistent regardless of who's working on it.

That's great. Um, so, Ashley, you've been at this for a long time. What are the things that you feel like you've learned along the way that are most important? Like, if everything went away today, you're starting Back at zero. What would you say are the, like, kind of the most important things that you've learned that you'd implement right away or think about early on?

Um, don't be afraid to say no and don't be afraid to say yes out of, like, fear of, like, what if I fail? Because sometimes trying something new, like me with doing something in video, can end up turning into something that you really enjoy. But I, you know, I was scared to do certain things for so long because I don't like change. I like it in some ways. But, you know, I'm like, this is working. Let's just keep doing that. But I think sometimes it can really bring on some great things. And now it's like, yes, it's a lot of work. And I will say working with libraries, they have budgets. They're not huge. Like, you're not going to make a ton and ton of money working with local libraries, generally speaking. But it's so rewarding and just, like, it's one of my favorite parts of what I do. And if I would have never gone on a camera, I would probably still be afraid to, you know, like, where would I be right now? I don't know.

So that idea of saying yes to things that maybe you have a little bit of fear around, but also the piece of saying no is important as well. Could you talk about that?

Yeah. I think a lot of times as women or moms, you know, you feel kind of. And I mean, humans in general, you feel kind of obligated, especially if you. If you happen to feel like you're a nice person or you like to help people. It can be hard to, like, not just take everything on. And sometimes it's just either you don't have the brain space or it's not financially, like, a great decision. And there's some quote, and I wish I knew who said it years ago, that somebody said. And it stuck with me. They said, don't set yourself on fire to keep other people warm. And I'm like, that's so good, because you can just. You'll just burn out, you know, and you have to kind of protect yourself and your space. And when you're an entrepreneur, you, like, you're. You're not on all the time, but you're on all the time. Like, I might be, you know, going to pick my son up from school, but in my brain, I'm like, oh, like, should I, you know, should I try a recipe for this? Or I should reach out to this person, and it doesn't really? Stop. So you gotta, like, cut yourself some slack and.

Yeah.

And especially some. Oh, sorry.

I was just gonna say it's a great quote. Like, yeah, it looks like Penny Reed, who's a. I don't. I'm not familiar with who that is, but it looks like maybe an author.

And you can just always add Ben Franklin. Ben Franklin said Ben Franklin.

Yeah, exactly. The source of all good quotes. Ben Franklin. So. And you were saying just kind of. Do you remember the thought that you had where you were at?

Oh, just. I have found it's also possible if you're a nice person and you help people out and you do things, you can get taken advantage of, and sometimes people overstep because you're willing to, you know, to help them out, and you just have. You have to watch out for that. And it stinks to have to think like that sometimes, but it's important.

Yeah, totally. And that balance of, like, yes and no. I think so much of that as people, but especially as entrepreneurs, it's figuring out, like, when do you say yes to a thing that maybe stretches you or pushes you outside of your comfort zone a little bit? And then when do you say no to the situations that could potentially be good, might, you know, be helpful in a certain situation, but the reality that you just can't do everything.

Yeah, you can't. You'll just burn out.

Yep.

And then you won't, like, feel good. I don't know. Like, I want to feel good at the end of the day. I want to be able to sleep, you know?

Yeah, that's great. So we mentioned, you know, the. The name of the site, Big Flavors, Tiny Kitchen. Is that where people can follow along with you around the web? Ashley?

Yeah, it's Big Flavors from a tiny kitchen. It's bigflavorstinykitchen.com and actually, when I was on LiveJournal, my first name was Chopaholic. Like, Chop knife. Yeah, but that's. That quickly changed. But, yeah, I'm on all the social medias, IG flavors and now YouTube. You can do the channel handle, which is great. Like, that was a new. If you have under a certain number of followers that you could change it. And then Twitter is Big Flavors blog, though. I'm wondering if Twitter is still going to be around much longer.

Sure. Yeah. The way things are trending right now.

Yes.

Yeah. Speaking of setting yourself on fire, it feels like Twitter is maybe. Maybe doing a little bit of that. And then if people wanted to check out a class, could they. Do you have to be a member of kind of the local library to do that. Or could they.

I list everything. All the public classes that I'm doing I list on my website. So if you go to bigflavorstinykitchen.com events, so you'll see I have stuff right now, I think through March scheduled. And yeah, you can join any of them. I always link to the registration so the registration page would be through whatever library. But yeah, people I, I always love having people join and it funnily enough when I take someone else's cooking class virtually, I don't cook along. I like to watch. Even though I love having people cook along with me. I just, I, I prefer to absorb it and then do it later.

But yeah, that makes sense either. And either, either one works for your classes. It sounds like. Cool.

Yeah.

Ashley, so great to connect. Thanks so much for coming on and sharing your story.

Thank you so much. Bjork.

Hi.

Hi.

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