412: How to Support Your Mental Health as a Content Creator with Sherry Walling

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Hey there, you're listening to the Food Blogger Pro podcast and this is Emily from the Food Blogger Pro team. Welcome to episode 412 of the podcast. This week Bjork is interviewing Sherry Walling, a clinical psychologist and founder of zenfounder. This is her second time on the podcast and she's back today to talk more about the mental health of entrepreneurs. It's a really powerful episode and Sheri shares more about the habits you can incorporate into your life to better manage anxiety, stress and grief and prioritize your emotional and physical well being. As a content creator, Bjork and Sheri chat more about the first steps to take when your mental health is suffering. How to separate your personal from your professional life and why it matters and why it's important for content creators to have a hobby. I found myself nodding along with this episode and I think it'll really resonate with all of you content creat creators and entrepreneurs out there. So I'm going to let Bjork take it away.

Sheri, welcome back to the podcast.

It's delightful to be with you. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, you have. People probably know this right, when they hear it, but you have a great mic because you are also a podcaster as well. It's always an indicator whenever we do these, you wait for the response. It's like, is it AirPods? Which are fine. Is it a nice mic? So you. You do this podcasting, you've done it for a long time. You've published books, you work with founders and entrepreneurs. We're going to talk about all of those things. But take us back to the start of Zen Founder, your podcast. How did you know that there was a need for that? Or did you know there was a need for that when you first started it?

Yeah, I started talking about entrepreneurship and mental health right after Aaron Schwartz died. So Aaron Schwartz was a young man who died by suicide. He was one of the founders of Reddit and an MIT student, just this, like, really, really brilliant young entrepreneur. And I found my husband Rob, crying in his office one day, My husband, who's a sort of double engineer, SaaS startup guy, not a big crier, so. But he was so impacted by the death of this entrepreneur, this young, really promising entrepreneur, that we started a conversation that day around the need to talk more about mental health among entrepreneurs. And that was the kind of beginning of this process. So I gave a talk at a conference shortly thereafter. It was received so well that we started a podcast originally together, and then I've carried on with it alone. And that was in 2017. So it's been. It's been a couple years now.

Yeah. Have you found in opening up that conversation on your end, at least, that it's allowed other entrepreneurs or founders or creators to open up to you? I mean, that's part of what your job is, getting people to open up. But what have you realized in starting that journey in terms of the need for that type of content, but also those types of conversations?

I mean, I think the beginning of a public conversation around mental health is always to destigmatize and to help people understand that, like, you are not alone. If there's a day that you feel like you do not have any energy to work on your business, or you are not alone in your struggles with anxiety, you can still be a very successful founder who finds a lot of meaning and joy in their work and have some really rough mental health days. So that feels like topic A, just that this is important and it doesn't discount you from your life as a founder.

Yeah, I remember having A conversation within the last year with our team leadership team. And I remember coming to them and I'd been in the season of just feeling anxious, which was abnormal for me. I'd never felt that before. And now when people are like, I feel anxious. I'm like, oh, not that I know exactly how you feel, but it's like, that's what that's like. They're like, wake up early when you don't need to, or to not be able to fall asleep when you want to. And one of the things that was most helpful for me was just to come to the team and say, like, just so you know, I've been feeling this and. But it was really hard too, to do that. Why do you think that is? Like, is there something within us that exists that filters out our ability to be vulnerable? Like, is there this is. This is diving deep into the, like, psychology of. Yeah, the human experience and the human mind. But like, but I'm curious to know, in your opinion, is. Is there something that, like, why do we not want to be vulnerable?

I think speaking in aloud concretizes it. It makes it real. If we keep it in our head, it can sort of fester in the dark, but it also allows us to do the mental gymnastics of like, is this anxiety? Am I okay? Maybe I'm not okay. Like, we're churning on it, but once we come to the point of speaking it aloud, we've made it concrete. It exists out in the world outside of us and other people know it too. And so I think we're afraid of what that feels like in their heads. Once it's no longer in our head, it becomes something we can't control anymore.

And most of us, to somebody, this truth about yourself that then is interpreted by them, is that kind of what you're getting?

We don't get to hold the message anymore. We don't get to control the message anymore.

Yeah, interesting.

That's pretty uncomfortable for us.

And do you think that exists? I would assume it exists more so for people who have more at stake with controlling the message, like creators, publishers, influencers. Does that feel true? Founders? I don't know.

Oh, yeah. I mean, I think lead the. Under the sort of umbrella of leadership is this sense of importance, of controlling the message and of being in charge of oneself. And then those of us who do a lot in public, whether that's creators or people who have a strong social media presence, writers, our selfhood is. Can be quite interchangeable or intertwined with our brand. And so it can feel like, oh, if there's a vulnerability in. In me as a human, in my human heart, is that going to reflect a vulnerability? This empire that I've built or this brand that I've built or this thing that I've made in the world?

Yeah. So what happens for somebody who is feeling those things like you are feeling whatever it might be, Depressed, anxious. I mean, how do you. What's the first step in approaching that in a way that's healthy and constructive in terms of navigating all of the ins and outs of. It's not even like. I mean, it's getting to a better headspace, I guess, to use the name of the meditation app.

Name of the app. I don't think they came up with that word. Okay, yeah, that's public consumption, not trademarked. I do think that these kinds of feelings, they fester in the dark. So even though the hard thing is speaking them aloud, often that's the most helpful thing. And that can begin, like sort of phase one can be just to write, to journal, just even to speak aloud to yourself. Audio record for yourself. I'm not feeling well. What's going on? Here's what's bugging me. Here's why I'm. Here's what I'm burdened by. So speaking it aloud to yourself or writing about it, I think is important first step. Second is to talk about it with a trusted other person. A friend, a parent, a cousin, your significant other. Like somebody who knows you, who is a safe person for you to say, I am in a funk. I don't feel well. Something's not right. Can I just process out loud? And then, of course, there's other layers. You might. You might need to talk to your team if it's affecting your performance. It's also a great time to talk to a mental health professional or somebody who, again, you can just say the words, something's off. I need help figuring out what's off and what the path forward is.

Yeah, it's such a critical piece of the puzzle when you think of what it is that we're doing and what. When I say we're. I'm talking to the audience, it's creative people who are also doing. A lot of times it's like high performance type stuff. You need to deliver, you need to produce, you need to execute. And so much of that requires a foundation which you can stand on to do that. And one of the things that's difficult in the world of business or especially in the world of publishing information online or content online Is that a lot of times those two things are, it almost feels like those are separated out. Like you have your business and productivity and then you have your headspace, your personal world, and those are kind of two separate. But the more that we do this, the more I realize, like, actually they're so finely intertwined.

Yeah.

And it seems like the, the most, the biggest roi like to use a business firm that you could get is to make sure that you are in a good place as you go into the work that you're doing. I remember Michael Hyatt, who's I think since retired, but he started a company that's now called Full Focus. He talked about his, like, priority and priorities and he, and he always talked about himself being number one, which is always like, wait, you have a family and you have a business? And he's like, but I, I know that I'm going to be better at those things if I put myself first. And do you think that's a difficult thing for people to do, to put themselves first? And is that a part of it? Like, is it, to put it bluntly, like self care or in the simplest.

Term, I mean, I think the language here can be like, tricky for people. Putting yourself first sounds so selfish.

Yeah. Yeah.

But I like to frame it in the context of like, you are the greatest asset, you are the greatest gift that you have to offer. Whether that's the way that you think about your business, your creativity, the way that you communicate, your ability to problem solve, your efficiency, productivity, all of that comes from what exists between your ears. And so if you are not tending to yourself as the resource, as the foundation of all the things, then you are really risking the greatest sort of asset that you have to offer. Same is true of your family. Like, if you are not caring for your emotional well being, for your body, for your ability to be kind and to be focused and be attentive, you're not going to show up well in your family. So I don't know that I would totally use the language of put yourself first, but I would say that all the other stuff falls apart really fast if you're not.

Well, yeah, it's almost like if you view yourself as an engine or a car and you're out in the world, if you're not getting the oil change, filling up with gas, like taking some time to clean the windshield off, like you're going to get in an accident and there might be a chance that when you are driving around, you're carrying loved ones with you. And so as much as possible caring for those core kind of foundational things. You talk about that in, I think it's your first book. Is that right?

Yeah.

The entrepreneur's guide to keeping your sh. Star symbol T together. I love that. What are the other things for us as entrepreneurs that we can be doing that are those foundational, almost like routines or habits? I'm working with a health coach now and he said, talks about this idea of, you know, your habits become who you are. I've been thinking about that a lot. It's like, oh, yeah, the things I do every day over time make up who I am.

Yeah.

What about for entrepreneurs for mental health? What are those things that you can be doing every day or every week that. That help you keep your sh. Star symbol T together?

I mean, I do think that there are lots of things that can go in that pie for people. But almost without exception, the health of our body is really important. So most entrepreneurs quickly sacrifice sleep. But sleep is of course, our greatest neurological superpower. That's where our brains do all of that juicy and important recovery work. It's where we consolidate our memories. So in the repertoire of things that you do in a week to take care of your mental health, sleep is one of the most important. Of course. Eating well, drinking, food, moving. Those are all physical body things, but they're direct correlates to mental health, to how energized you feel, how patient you feel, how creative you feel. I'm also a big fan of adding in some kind of self reflective practice. So that can be journaling, it can be being in therapy, being in a therapy group, being in a mastermind, Something where you're taking stock. Like, how am I doing? How am I feeling? How am I showing up and doing that in a rhythmic and intentional way.

Yeah. What do those things, if I can ask, like, what does that look like for you? I know you have specifically around movement and thinking have some really cool things that you could share in terms of how you do that. But even in your personal world, what do those different elements? And maybe we can start with the movement piece.

Yeah, so the movement piece is the most fun. I think I, in the last five or six years have become somewhat of an amateur circus artist. So I perform the flying trapeze and the swinging trapeze. Yes. They're different aerial fabrics. I'm learning to spin fire. So there's a lot of different things that I do physically that require a lot of focus.

And a lot of is the trapeze. Like literally you're swinging back and forth. And then you grab another one, like, high up in the air.

A person grabs you. Yes.

Okay.

A person who's on another trapeze. To be human, you have to trust a human.

Yeah, totally. Uh, and then the. What was the other one that you said it was?

The swinging trapeze is where you do tricks on a trapeze that's moving.

Okay.

And then the aerial fabrics are like. If you've been to Cirque du Soleil and you see the, like, incredible and also terrifying.

Is it scary when you're doing it?

It can be, for sure. Uh, I have a pretty healthy fear of heights, so, yes, it's pretty scary and it's interesting.

I was talking to a friend, Stephen. He has a site called Gear Junkie. I don't know if you've connected or. He's a Minnesota entrepreneur, but he was talking about how he did. He just did this huge ice climbing trip, and he talked about how intense it was and how it's the most meditative he is when he's doing that because it requires such focus. Like, such intense focus because the stakes are so high. Is that part of it for you?

Absolutely, yeah. I mean, we talk about, like, the monkey mind or how our brain can sort of jump from one thing to another. Oh, I got to remember. Send that email and. Oh, I got to remember to get that shopping thing and. Oh, I got it. You know.

Yeah.

But when you're climbing or when you're on a flying trapeze, all that goes away. And your brain and your body are. Has to almost do to be safe. You're singularly focused on one thing, which is a real gift to the brain.

Yeah.

And obviously helpful for your body. You can get really strong doing that.

Yes, totally. And then the pink is she's, like, really good at circus. Is that. Is that right? When I think of somebody who I know, who's, like, an incredible performer.

Yeah.

Like, yeah. Live performances and stuff where I've seen her do that in Cirque du Soleil in Vegas and whatnot. So. So that being an example of it seems like kind of two things. Movement and how important that is, but also potentially meditation. Do you view that as your meditation as well?

Absolutely. And then I would add another piece. Circus is. It's actually a team sport. You think about the single performer maybe, that you see, but it's very much a community that trains together, a community of coaches, a community of spotters. So it's also a way for me to spend time with people. That's not Based around my business or my family. But these are my circles of friendship too.

Yeah, I was listening to podcasts. I don't remember which one it was, but there were. Oh, it was, it's kind of in a similar vein to like Zen founder. It was a podcast called We Study Billionaires, but it was a guy talking about mental health on this podcast. Justin Karp I think was his name. And now he's in. In the world of a lot of like health related stuff because he was this extremely focused high performer. But like he started to lose his hair, he started to like go blind, like he started to lose his sight. All of these extreme reactions to what he was doing to himself. What he came to find out from lack of sleep and not eating well and. But one of the things that he talked about within that was discovering that much of what he needed was what we had as humans for thousands of years, that within the last like hundred years has kind of gone away. And it was things like connection to other people, it was consistent sleep. It was like all. It was almost like these manifestations of culture where we don't need to like, we're not forced to connect in the way that we were before and have community, weren't forced to operate in the way that we were. And we've kind of then created a version of reality that's detrimental to our health. Do you feel like the Internet plays into that? Is that part of what we're dealing with is the fact that now we can be in a room and feel connected, but not actually connect with anybody?

Yeah, I think technology has offered lots of wonderful things, but has also offered us the opportunity and option of disrupting a lot of our natural rhythms. So whether it's sleep related rhythms, but when we think about just relational rhythms, you know, if you're in a tribe, you are intertwined with maybe 100 people, maybe you have a nuclear family, an extended family, and then you've got these other people around who you're interconnected with. And so you feel their celebrations and you feel their losses and your life is, you know, is touched when something happens to them. But now with the connectivity of Internet and news, like we're exposed to tragedy that befalls the whole human race. And although I think it's important to stay informed and to be empathetic, I think a lot of us are also carrying the weight of, of events that were not necessarily designed to have the, the capacity to hold that much story, that much trauma, that much grief that's happening around the world. So in A sense it's made our worlds too big. And I. I think psychologically, we'll probably evolve to be able to handle it better.

Sure.

But right now, we're not.

We're in this. In between. Yeah.

Yeah.

Just this morning, I had the news playing as we're getting ready for the day, and Lindsay came down. I was like, do you want to listen to this? She's like, not really. I was like, it's just on the radio. And then she's like, do you think it's irresponsible to not listen to the news? Like, and the spirit of it was that exact thing, which is, like, number one. It's, like, kind of a terrible way to start the day, is to, like, listen to all the bad things that have happened over the last 24 hours. But it's. It's that same thought of, like, you want to be responsible, you want to be knowledgeable about what's happening, but also you don't want to be inundated with these things that create this psychological kind of, like, weight that you're carrying.

Yeah.

And yet most of the people listening to this, like, the way that they create an income, the way that they are making money, is by engaging with the global audience on platforms that expose you to global news. So how do you do that?

Well, I think that's where it is helpful to have a distinction between your professional slash public self and your private life. This gets harder and harder to do in the era of social media. And obviously, almost all of you and I are both on social media, and a lot of the listeners, um, feel a lot of, you know, part of their business model is to be really present. But the weight of the audience as the feedback loop for your value as a content creator, the number of likes, the number of reposts, the number of shares, like, we all have these metrics in our mind of what constitutes good content and how we measure that, and we have to do that for our business. But we also have to separate that from our life and from that little tribe of people that we create where it really matters, what they think. Their feedback is really important to us. And that's maybe different than the feedback loops from the masses.

Yeah. I've been reflecting on what can I do in my life that will change how I feel and how I operate within the world. And I think in a previous version of myself, I'd think, hey, I want to reach a certain level of success or I want to achieve a certain thing. And that's still very much so a part of who I am and how I think. But one of the concepts that I've started to think more about is, like, one of the most beneficial things I could potentially do for myself is, like, become really good friends with, like, my three closest friends.

Yeah.

And like, I think that would have. I think my life would be better if that happened versus, like, if all of my business stuff doubled. And it's such a strange reality to come up against where there's no metric to really track it, there's no way to understand it. But, like, if I double my connection with my three closest friends, I'm probably going to be in a better place. And yet I spend 98% of my time, like, not all of my time, but, like.

Yeah.

My active problem solving time. Yeah. Like emailing and like, I'm not party planning. I'm not. I bought a. Lindsay gives me such a hard time about this. I bought a ping pong table a year ago. It's a super nice one. I was like, here's the plan. And I haven't used it once. And it's just like. That feels like it should be a metric that I'm tracking. But what are those other things. Yeah. That we could. That we can be doing that are helpful to our soul, which, you know, is good. Yeah.

Yeah. The language of the soul, I think is really helpful to reintroduce a business conversations.

Yeah.

And I think that language sometimes is. It gets sticky with religious traditions and, you know, sometimes people aren't super comfortable with that word, but I think it implies a part of us that is beyond or separate from that external success. And it's that inner world of wanting to have an inner world that's beautiful and satisfying. And once. One thing that I sometimes have people that I coach do one practice. It's a little bit dark, but it is to actually write out your obituary.

Sure.

You know, and. And then reverse engineer. Right. If you say in your obituary, Bjork was deeply loved by these three friends. And, you know, they're written. They're mentioned by name in the obituary because their sense of that loss is so deep. And you gotta. You gotta engineer that to be what is written about you.

Yeah. There's. I don't know a lot about stoicism, but one of the things I appreciate about it is this reflection on our own. The end of our own life. And I feel like that is a version of that, but also ties into this. Like, Stephen Covey, start with the end in mind. That's the ultimate example is like, what does it look like for you at the end of your life in terms of what people say about you? And if what you want that to be is different from what your current reality is, what does it look like to kind of work backwards against that? I love that you talk a lot about grief and have experienced grief as we talk about loss and. And. And, you know, reflecting on our own loss or our own lives, the end of our own lives. But I've also experienced loss and grief in your. In your life as you've navigated loss of your brother, loss of your dad. And I know, for me, you know, we've navigated seasons of grief and have had to figure out, what does it look like for us to continue to, like, show up every day, but to show up in the truest version of ourselves? And that's a hard thing to do in your season of grief, which maybe it's. We're always there. What. What did you learn in going through that? And we can talk about your book to Touching Two Worlds, which. Which dives deep into kind of that world of grief.

Yeah, I think that the title, Touching Two Worlds, is maybe the best summary of what I learned, which is that there was an invitation for me to be very present to grief, not numb it, not avoid it, not hide it away. But to say, hey, this is a really real and important part of my life as a human is to feel deeply the losses of these people that I loved and to let that matter, let it hurt me, let it, let myself feel it. And that's one world, Right. It's the world of sadness. But the other side of that world is, of course, the world of love. Right. If we feel lost so deeply, it's because we loved so big. Right? We tried so hard, we went so deep, we went all in. And so the other piece of this world is to live in a world where I am also leaning into something that's joyful, that's generative, that's creative, that's loving. And so for me, this time of grief was in this sort of. I guess sometimes it felt like almost like a tightrope act of, like, being. Being in the. Being in the both and letting myself feel that.

Yeah. Why? Why. Why both? Like, why was it an important thing to be in both of those? And what did that allow you to do?

Yeah, I think both. Because it was true, if that makes sense. I. I think the tendency for. Are business owners, we're the people who make things in the world. We're the leaders, is to stay above the surface and not Go into the depths, because the depths are vulnerable. They're uncomfortable, they're painful, they slow down progress. It can feel like. And when we don't do that, though, we risk those things festering. I mean, I've worked with so many entrepreneurs and leaders who have this sort of delayed grief where they come to a point in their lives where they're like, oh, my goodness, I never grieved the death of my father, or I never grieved that significant loss. And so they've been walking around in the world with a part of themselves totally cut off, which I believe does impact how you show up in your business and your relationships and your creativity and those things. It does matter. But also the. The why be in both is because you can be. You can get a passport and go back and forth. Like, you don't have to go into a cave of monastic grief and stop hanging out with your kids, stop laughing, stop doing circus, stop writing, stop growing your business. You can go back and forth.

Yeah, that's. When I think of those seasons that we've been in, it's always surprising how. What seemingly contrasting feelings can show up like laughter. Like, you can be in a season of grief and also laugh. And not always. I think a lot of times you are in those seasons and you don't feel that, but it feels like it just speaks to the complexity of human existence. Like, that we can feel all of these things together for somebody who is, let's say, in that season, season of grief. And maybe they don't have resources or maybe feel like they don't have immediate people around them that are able to walk with them or understand what they're going through. How do you take steps towards healing that grief? And would that even be language that you would use? Like, is it. Are you healing grief?

I don't use the language of grief because I don't see grief as an injury. I see grief as the, like, the shadow side of love. Like, it's very much a part of the human experience. We will all hold it. And so it's not. It's not a brokenness that needs repairing, obviously. It's. It's a little bit like music. Right. Sometimes you turn the volume up or down. Sometimes the chords are dissonant, sometimes they're harmonious. So you don't want to get stuck in it. I wouldn't. You know, sometimes people really suffer in grief and they have trouble dancing with it or moving with it. And. And I. So I don't want to diminish the amount of sort of psychological disruption or mental health pain that goes along with grief. I'm not saying, hey, it's normal, just sit there. But I am saying that it's not, it's not necessarily a thing that I think we have to repair.

Yes.

So I wrote the book to try to normalize that. Right. To give people a little bit of a guideline for some of the things that I found helpful. And there are really lovely grieving communities speaking of some of the benefits of technology. There are some like really lovely, rich, wonderful, like Instagram, Instagram channels around grief and they're super helpful and validating and so people can reach out even in traditional ways and find places of understanding and belonging.

Yeah. It's amazing how impactful other stories can be. And if to your point, it feels like one of the great benefits of access to a global audience or access to hundreds of thousands of people is you do get those little pockets of people who are experiencing very similar things. It's like that's social media at its best, like a hard to access community of people who are in a like minded place. Do you would you know what those are offhand like, is it like little like hashtags of on Instagram or.

Yeah, there's, I said I know so many of these. So there's one called Untangled Grief that I really like. Refuge and Grief is another author, a woman named Megan Devine, who writes really beautifully about grief, empowered through grief. So there's, there's quite a lot. And there's also like local grief organizations in most major cities and towns.

Yeah. And those would be people that you can connect with in person. Kind of a round table.

The grief project. What is also interesting though, I mean you've, you've known significant loss and the more that you talk about your story, the more you find people who have similar stories.

Totally.

So by your decision to share about the loss of your child, for example. Example.

Yeah.

You find people who are like, oh, that happened to my cousin or yes, I had, you know, this story losing it. I, I lost my brother to suicide, which is, you know, it's a sort of special kind of loss or it's just a unique experience of loss. But by deciding to speak about it openly, there's a lot of people who are like, oh, I had the same experience. And so you find your grief tribe.

Yeah, it's, it's amazing. And that exact experience happened for us. And it's also one of the gifts of, you know, at the point having people who were familiar with us just from following Online you just are able to connect with that many more people and say like, oh my gosh, like people would reach out and say this hap. This is my experience. Or like you said, like we had somebody in our family where this happened. And I think the other thing that happens in those experiences is you go through it and then your radar, your like grief radar gets so fine tuned that you are uniquely able to like spot and respond to other people who have experienced that. Like.

Yeah.

My assumption now is when you connect with somebody else who has lost somebody to suicide, like you can be there for them in a way that nobody else can. And that is something for that other person. On the other side is such a gift, like to, to be there and to understand and to, and to give in such a way that nobody else can.

It's like you've traveled to this other country and you have the shared language and you know what kind of food they have there. You know, it's just this shared experience.

Yeah. So I have some more questions for you just for us as creators and publishers, but I also want to make sure to have a chance to give a shout out to this book, to your books to make sure that people know where they can pick those up. Is it kind of anywhere? Like worked with a publisher, they're available anywhere.

Yeah. You're touching Two Worlds was published by Sounds True, which is a major publisher. And then the entrepreneur's guide is keeping your together family podcast. I did self publish. Yeah. Although I will say that was my, my son who came up with the name for the book. I was like, where'd you hear that language?

Yeah.

And also good title. We're taking it. So that one is on Amazon.

That's awesome. That's great. So we, as we round out, we touched on this a little bit. But one of the things that I've noticed as a through line with really like to varying degrees, anybody that we work with is, or anybody we talk to, anybody that we interact with in this space is like there's the function of the work that we're doing. You're publishing content to social media, you're developing recipes, you're taking pictures, you're building a brand or a business. All of those, the function, functional part of the business. But inevitably everybody who's listening to this is also dealing with the, their, you know, themselves and the struggles that come with doing all of those functional things. Self doubt, like loneliness, like fear, all of the kind of emotional things that there isn't as much you've talked about this There isn't as many conversations happening around that. And so I think the perception is that it's not as common, but what we found is, like, it's ubiquitous. It's everywhere. It's just nobody's talking about it. So how do we, as creators. Founders, publishers. Build in intentionality to not just get good at the function of our job, but also to get good at the health, like, our. The health of our body and our brain. And you talked about it a little bit, but, like, what does that look like on a repeating basis? What are the, like, shields that we can put up to protect ourselves? And also, what are the tools that we can use that equip us to better kind of fight back against that?

Yeah. I just want to echo how ubiquitous it is, how much anyone who is taking the risk to put themselves and their content out there in the world is battling through some version of, I'm not good at this. This shouldn't be me. I'm tired. You know, there's always a negative story that they're working through, and that's. I mean, that is also, like, this is really hard. That's why not everybody can do it is because not everybody can. Can sort of struggle through some of that challenge. You know, I think, like, we talked about a little bit, having this sense of personal and professional distinction is important. Like, really anchoring into the people that love you, no matter what your follower count is or no matter what, you know, how many eyes are on your pieces, but they just love you because you are usually that's your significant other, hopefully your parents, your siblings, your children.

What do you think it means to lean into that? What does that look like?

I think it means, you know how when Mr. Rogers started, Mr. Rogers neighborhood, he would come home and he'd take off his blazer and put on his sweater. It means there's a transition between your one self and your other self. It means when you are done being in front of the camera recording your YouTube video, you change into your sweatshirt and you go play with your kids. Like, yeah, you're transforming from one version of yourself to the other version of yourself very intentionally.

I remember a conversation with Lindsay, and it was in this one of the harder seasons for me. And I said, I think one of the important things for me to think about is, like, this is my job. And it was almost like, oh, my gosh. It was like this light bulb moment where I was like, this is. I could view this as, like, a job. And it was in a season where I was like, I Need to think of this as, like, work. And it was just like, it felt like the most genius idea ever was to, like, view my work as a job. But it was so helpful, especially in that season, to say, like, this can be two separate things. I can have my job and then I can have, you know, time at home or friends or with family. So I think that in. And especially for people who are so intertwined with their brand.

Right.

What does it look like to be passionate and to do that well, but to not hold tightly to it, it's like a hard thing.

It totally is.

Yeah.

But it's important. It's sort of like any resource, you're going to diversify your assets. You're not putting every dollar into real estate, you're not putting every dollar into the stock market. You're. You're diversifying where your resources are. Same with emotional resources. Obviously, we get a lot of validation and love and energy from our work. Hopefully we get some of that from our family. I also think it's really important for creators to have a hobby, something that is really different than the thing that they do all day to make money. Something that just exists for play, just camaraderie, companionship, and is a counterbalance to these other parts of themselves.

Yeah, I love that idea. Maybe being a finance guy of diversification, but the peace of mind that you get, like, if this all goes away, if, you know, I don't have followers, if I don't have likes, do I have other places where I can go and still get what I need? Love, safety, security, like, yeah, attention, you know, whatever those things are.

Validation.

Validation. And to know it's from a source that maybe isn't quite a. That that is more steady.

Yeah.

Feels like, yeah, what a great takeaway.

And that's. It's imperative. It's imperative. I mean, I think we've seen a lot of people who live in the public eye, whether it's Anthony Bourdain or more recently, Heather Alexander. These are people who built their lives in public and who knows exactly what's happening in the shadows of their inner world. But something wasn't. Well, and so, you know, we lost them to, to suicide. But yeah, you have to have a sense of self that's bigger than the work. That's deeper than the work, man.

I feel like that is a great sentiment to, to rest on and to. And to lean into and to leave people with, to aspire to. And one of the ways they can do that is by consuming this type of content. I've Been thinking about that for myself. Listen to a lot of. I listen to business podcasts, real estate podcasts, computer podcasts, Mac Break Weekly. I'm like, tell me about computers. But I'm like, you know, what you put in your head is what lives in your head. And so how do you be intentional to put stuff like this into your head? And one of the ways that you can do that is through great podcasts like zenfounder and, you know, great books like the books that you've read. So if people want to do that, if they want to start putting more of this type of content into their head, if they want to start thinking about this and, and rolling some of these habits into their daily routines, weekly routines. Can you talk about Zen Founder and also talk about the work that you're doing with founders? Like if to the extent that you have availability or are working with people on a one to one basis?

Yeah, thanks. Thanks for that. I. Yeah, my life's work is sort of helping people navigate these spaces. So I do it in a variety of ways. There's the, the top of funnel things that I'm sure your audience knows. That language, we get it, you know.

It, you know it. You also live in this weird world where it's like your husband's an entrepreneur, you know, you're an entrepreneur, you think entrepreneurial, you work with entrepreneurs, and then you also have the very, you know, the soft skills of all the other stuff that you do. So.

Yeah, so the podcast, of course, is widely available. Zenfounder.com is where that lives. And then I have a couple of books, as we've mentioned, that are accessible and available. And then I spend a lot of time working one on one with entrepreneurs. I also do some things in groups and host retreats and events. So it's, it's a full package mission, as your audience will know, but lots of different ways to engage and touch points. And I have a team of folks that work with me that are also really amazing. So we really believe that you don't have to do this by yourself and that most of the things that are bouncing around in your head, that feel like insurmountable obstacles or things that are shadowy, painful parts of your experience, that usually there's a way to cast some light on them and have them feel a little bit differently and a little bit lighter.

That's awesome. And all of that is through Zen Founder.

Yep. I'm also on instagram@sherrywalling.com or Sherry Walling. And my book is called Touching Two Worlds. And there's a really beautiful website that goes along with that. If you're really interested in grief work. Touching2Worlds.com is where that one lives.

Well, I'm guessing you, you knew some people that could help create beautiful websites. It's a wonderful thing about the connections that you have in the world that you have.

That is true. But I also know my way around the back of Squarespace, I'll tell you that.

Yeah. And it comes with the territory. So really appreciate Cherry, not only what you do, the mission behind what you do, but also your willingness to come on and share your story. And I think what it does is like we've talked about, open the door for other people to share as well. And it makes a. Makes a difference. So thanks for coming on.

My pleasure. Thanks so much for having me.

Hey.

Hi.

Hello. Thanks so much for tuning into this episode of the Food Blogger Pro podcast. Alexa here, and I'm here to bring you just a quick little update of what we have going on within the Food Blogger Pro membership in June. So if you're interested in what the Food Blogger Pro membership is, instead of listening to me talk about it forever, you can just go to foodbloggerpro.com join to learn a little bit more and get signed up right there. But in June, since this is, you know, kind of like the first full week of June, we actually published a coaching call last week. So that was with Zoha, with Bake with Zoha. Gosh, it was such a good episode. In this video, Bjork answered Zoha's questions about things like optimizing recipes for SEO, especially when the recipes that Zoha develops are naturally highly competitive. If it matters where traffic comes from to maximize ad revenue and what advice Bjork would give his past self, it's such a good one. And it's currently live for all Food Blogger Pro members. On the 15th, we're talking with Andrea. She's our social media expert and we're talking all about Instagram. So how do you make Instagram work for you in 2023? That's what we're going to be focusing that live Q and A on. And like I said, that is on June 15th. And then on the 22nd, we are launching our full blown course, All About Clarity. So Clarity is our sister site. As you're probably aware, they sponsor the podcast quite a bit. And in this course, you're going to learn all about how to use clarity for your site. And this is one of those things where clarity really helps you identify different opportunities for optimizing your content, and you'll see exactly how to do that in this course. So if you're more of a visual learner, definitely check out this course to see if clarity could be a good fit for you. So that's what we have going on in June. We always like to say that, you know, at the end of each week, your membership will look different because we're constantly adding new content and updating old content. So Food Blogger Pro is like our hub for the latest and greatest updated content. So again, if you're interested in joining, you can go to foodbloggerpro.com join and learn more and get signed up right there. But that is it for us this week. We appreciate you being here and we'll.

See you next time.

And until then, make it a great week.

It.