413: Lessons in Burnout, Persistence, and Creativity after Ten Years of Food Blogging with Maggie Zhu

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Hey there. Welcome to episode 413 of the Food Blogger Pro Podcast. This is Emily from the Food Blogger Pro team. This week on the podcast, Bjork is chatting with Maggie Zhu from Omnivore's Cookbook. Maggie has been running Omnivore's Cookbook, a food blog all about modern Chinese cooking for over 10 years now. That's a super long time in Internet years. She's had lots of success growing her site during this time and recently wrote her first cookbook, the Chinese Homestyle Cookbook. In this interview, Bjork and Maggie are chatting about lots of topics that come up frequently when you've been blogging for as long as Maggie has. She chats about what it was like for her her to work a full time job while growing her food blog right at the beginning, what her goals are for her blog and how she works through the comparison Trap and how she's limited burnout after blogging for 10 plus years. She also shares why she's decided to prioritize outsourcing certain tasks for her business and where she finds people to join her team. Maggie has really great advice for someone who's just starting out in the early stages of blogging. And it's a really honest and thought provoking interview that we know you're going to love. So I'll just let Bjork take it away.

Maggie, welcome to the podcast.

Hi. So nice meeting you.

Yeah, it's, it's fun to connect here because you are somebody who's been in this world, in this space, doing this work for a long time. Ten years, a decade. I feel like once you go from single digits to double digits with the content creation world, that's when you know that you've been at it for a long time. Especially in Internet years. Right?

So, yeah, I know. It's like forever.

We were talking about, you have cat and I feel like cat years, right? Or dog years. They talk about dog years. Seven years for every year. I feel like that. It kind of feels like the equivalent in Internet years needs to exist, like three years for every year in the Internet. So it's like, you know, if you've been doing something for a decade, that's like the equivalent of 30 years in another job.

Feel like I'm so old now.

Yeah, exactly. We are, we are establishing our place as the senior citizens of content creation world. But the benefit is you have, and we chat about this a little bit before we press record. You have experience with the ups, the downs, the, the positives, the negatives. Once you've been at something for a long time, it gives you exposure to a lot of different experiences. And that's one, you know, we're going to touch on some of those things today. You talked about burnout, you talked about delegation. We talked about, you know, seasons of tracking analytics really closely and then seasons of not being, you know, tied into that as much. But with, with any conversation like this, I always like to start at the beginning to hear about what it was like when you first started. So if we roll the tape back a decade, 2013, what mindset were you in when you were starting and just getting into it.

So I really, actually, really, really want to talk about that because this blog happened like the, the cause was like really, really just all of a sudden out of blue because I. So I'm from China. I used to live in Beijing like before and grow up in Beijing. So I don't. I don't. I didn't really read that much vlogs back then, you know, especially like, you know, like, I was in China and blogging is like, not really like a big thing there. So I wasn't really, like, you know, I wasn't familiar with it at all. And I was like, like, so many bloggers. I was at this corporation job that I really hated. I was just like, I really, really want to quit my job.

Yeah. What was you were doing?

Banking.

Okay. In Beijing.

Yeah.

Okay.

So it was like kind of like brainstorming with my friend, just like, how. What do we can do? You know, like, should we do importing? It's like, should we do this and do that? It's like just chatting. And there's this one day my friend is like, oh, you know what? We should start vlogs. Because people talking about food and traveling and they can make money from it. And that was the time I. So I studied in Japan before where I actually learned my cooking. You know, I used to, like, not good at cooking at all. And I started to live in Japan. I started cook myself and I, you know, like, had that, like, really, really getting into cooking and, you know, homemade food and all that. So my friend was like, you know.

You had moved to Japan or was.

No, no, that was. That was like, after Japan, I moved back from Japan. So I had this passion in cooking. My friend is like, you know, we just share. We should share all this recipe we learn, you know, because we have just like friends together. And she just mentioned it. I was like, what is blogging? Like, I don't know about that at all, but I was very intrigued. So I literally went back home and I googled how to start a food blog. And Pinch of Yama, I believe that was like one of the top three search.

Great.

Yeah, there was like, you know, I think most of the website I remember a few, like, it was like really like kind of like carved in my memories. Like, I remember this few website I always go was like, oh, I have set up this and that. And Pinch of Yam is one of the, you know, I've been using over the years. And it's one of the most like, thorough. And like, literally I followed your guide to register like back then with like bluehost or something, you know, the super cheap one. I was like, like, I really remember all those screenshots and all that. I was using your website to set off my first blog.

Yeah. Oh, that's incredible. And so that was from Beijing.

Yeah.

Thinking, how do I start a blog? You Google it.

Yeah.

And pinch of yam comes up. We had walked through. You talked about.

Yeah, literally that. Yeah. That day, like I just started. I have no idea.

Yeah.

And I was like, you know, I'm just going to register a domain and all that. I'm just going to follow this guide. I'm just to this, you know, I didn't really overthink about like, oh, I need to learn, you know, like photography or writing or whatever. I just like, I just registered. I was like, okay, I have a blog now and now what do I do? I know. And I think my first recipe was like a tuna arriviato pasta with a typo in the title. Like, I didn't even know how to spell like Arabia and.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It was like, you know, a horrible blue, like very yellow and shooting with a point and shoot. And the blog post was like this long. It's just like 10 sentences like, oh, I really love this.

But at that point you knew that you were.

Yeah, that felt like a good fit.

You were excited about.

Yeah. I was like, this is interesting. And I cannot remember exactly. You have your like income report back then. Like, I think that really is like pretty soon after that. But I feel like, oh, people are actually making money from this. And I was just very like. So on one hand I was like, I think I was always loved the creativity job in the past. I actually used to do drawing and painting growing up, like as a student. But I just love the creativity of like having, you know, like shooting photos and developing recipes and sharing it.

Yeah.

And at the same, like on the back of my mind, I feel like, oh, it would be so cool if I can, you know, make money from this.

Yeah.

So it, it kind of. Yeah, it kind of started as a hobby because I had still had my full time job. Like, I, I did this on the side for a very long time.

Yeah, it's, it's interesting. I think what those income reports did some. I would assume a lot of people listening to the podcast are familiar, but we for a long season on Pinch of Yum said like, and we started really early on, which I think was one of the benefits of saying, hey, we're going to try and figure out what it looks like to create an income from this. And we started with, you know, it was $20 a month. And then it, Right.

I remember it kind of like this and then it go up like it's like slowly and then it's like just. And exploded.

And I think what it does is it's kind of like the four minute mile where they. There's this story of, you know, nobody had ever ran a four minute mile and then somebody ran it and then like six months after that three other people did. And I think what things like this do, and we've had our own versions of that, seeing other people do it is it introduces this as a reality. Like, oh, you can do it. Here's what it looks like. There's not anything special about us. We went through the process. Here's how to build it. Like you said, there's that. How to start a food blog page. We probably need to, we probably need to update that. It still is bluehost, which like you said is like we would get affiliate payments for it. So people would sign up if they use that. What was great about it was it was a really low barrier to entry. So you're spending like a hundred dollars.

It was so approachable. That was like, you know, and it's not again, at the same time it's a very professional. I feel like that was the key. It's not like, oh, you just register like a free thing, you know, like. Because I feel like when it's free.

You have your own domain. Yeah.

People don't really care. Like you have to have a little bit investment. I feel like that makes a difference.

Yep. Worth noting. So any of those. I feel like you get started with what makes the most sense, what's affordable, what you can do. Eventually what will happen. This is specifically around hosting. You'll level up. One of the things that exist now is managed hosting. A lot of people are using this and so we use WP engine and you'll pay more for it. But it's specifically built for WordPress as opposed to like a generic host. So WP engine, big scoots is another one. We know Scott, the founder of that company. Yeah, use that. Is that who you use?

Yeah. Bigscoots. Yeah, I love them.

So there's lots of great managed w WordPress hosting solutions out there. So those would be good to check out. But point being, in this early stage you are having this conversation with your friends. You're like, I want to start posting about recipes. We would call it a food blog. You do the search, you realize how to do it. And then you talked about this extended period of time where you were doing it kind of as a side hustle. What did that, how long was that? That you were doing it as a side hustle and what amount of time did that take in Your day to day, week to week, when you're working on it alongside doing your banking job.

So the first three years was really tough because I was just. That was the first three years when I was still living in China, having my full time job. And I only do that, you know, every evening after I came back from work, which is usually very, very late because of the long commute. So I do that at night and then I do, I cook on the weekend. And that was really. But you know, it's. On one hand I feel like man is like really, really tough because I had no time to do this and I want to do it more professionally, but I have all kinds of restrictions. Like lighting sucks and I kind of like, you know, I actually lived with my parents at the time, like have all kinds of like restrictions. Like my mom, like constantly rearrange my cooking styles. Like mom, it was like, why did you. She's like, no, you have to put it there. I was like, okay. But it did give me quite some time because I think I can, you know, every day on the subway, I can read books on photography. I can, I can just learn a lot, like absorb a lot during that time. So I think the first three years for me it's like a very, very slow pace to grow and trying to learn how to do it. And then after three years I actually moved to the U.S. what was the reason for that? So I was actually getting married because my husband is American and I just moved here and the first year I did not have a working visa at the time.

Sure.

And I feel like the blog is doing better and better. So I think I just want to. Because I couldn't go out to work anyway. So I was like, it was just a good time to build it and actually it's interesting. So I actually Google it. Like legally I'm allowed to earn passive income when I don't have. When I didn't have a work with us, I was like, oh, this is perfect. Or about passive income. So I gave myself a year to make it be more professionally. And it just took me a little more than a year actually after I started to spend more time on it and you know, set up my home studio, like trying to do it more professionally. And I also think that it helps me really a lot by after moving to the U.S. you know, because most of my readers are, they are from the US and a lot of them are from different European countries, you know, like English speaking countries to see people's actually because I blog about Chinese food, how to Cook Chinese food, you know, people's that I understand. Oh, what is a Western kitchen? What are the restrictions? What's the people's issue about, like, how hard it is to source food ingredients and seasonings and all that. And I had a better understanding of my readers. I think that is the part that really, really helped.

Yeah. Interesting. It's like all of the little nuances that you'd never think of in terms of what ingredients are available or.

Yeah, exactly.

Or tools that people would normally have it in their kitchen.

Yeah, right. So I think, you know, after one year I started to see, like, actually it gets so much better. And then it's. I think on year five, I think I made a full income. Full time income on year five.

So this was like 2018, right? Yep.

Yeah.

And now. And it was at that point where you said, okay, you've made the move to the US you spent this year kind of focused in trying to make it happen.

Right.

And crossover from like, side hustle to full time income. And then in 2018 is like, okay, I'm starting to see all of the effort that I've put in.

Yeah.

The result of that being the equivalent of a full time job. And at that point it probably doesn't make sense for you then to go out and look for a full time job.

Exactly. Yeah.

The timing of it has worked out where.

Right. Because I know this is like going up, so. But I feel like it felt like it took me a long time because I.

You.

You. You feature so many guests. They're like, oh, I made this in two years. You know, it's like, no, it took me way longer than that.

Yeah, it. One of the, one of the concepts I've been trying to think about is just how so. And this is. Everybody deals with this with social media. You listen to podcasts, you get inspiration, but then also what you do is you put your story up against somebody else's story and as much as possible, trying to think of what we're doing as like, cross country. And I always remember for cross country runners in high school, one of the things they were always doing was they're comparing themselves against their. Themselves, like their last best score. And I think that's. As creators, what we need to be doing is thinking about not only like, how do we improve based on our own, you know, pace or our own position, but also how do we really clearly define what it is that we actually want. Like, we get to make and create our own story with this and to then release the comparison, which is really Hard to do but to say, like, okay, I'm on my own path and what does that mean for me? What does my ideal look like?

Yeah, it's actually a really a good point because I feel like it took me the longest and I still don't feel like I get past like 100%. Because, you know, like when you're on social media, you're just constantly having you look at like what your parents are doing. You know, people are doing like fascinating things. But absolutely, I know that there's no way that I can do everything, you know, because everyone have their strengths and what they're good at and you just pretty much look at their best work out there.

Yeah.

And it's impossible to be like, oh, I want to like, you know, level up and be able to reach all of those, like, achievements. It's impossible. Yeah, I think I, I, yeah, like, I think in the past few years I started to realize like, what I really want, what I really want to pursue. And I really need to stop like comparing and all that.

What, what is that? I'm curious to hear your reflections on what it is that you actually want to pursue and what you learned.

Because you always want a better page reviews. It's so funny because I always keep telling my husband, I was like, I long time ago, many, many, many years ago, I was like, you know, if I earn like ten grand per month. Yeah, I think it was something like that. I would be like, I'm just going to quit, like retire because it's enough, like I'm just going to be like really like low key and do stuff. And obviously that never happened. You know, you just always be like, oh, this person just released a book, maybe I should do that too. And.

Right.

And you know, they're like, oh, these people, they're like working with chefs and they're doing events and you know, there are just so many things you can do to boost your business and you know, just, just to be. I. Because I think at some point that really the money is not like, money is actually never really the goal. Like, it's never about chasing the number. I was like, oh, I want to earn this amount of money or like, oh, I want to get rich or anything. I think it's a competition, like you said with yourself, like, because you strike to get better. Because I think I kind of feel like it's a part of like you have to have some sort of that personality to be good at this.

Yeah.

Right. Because you always want to.

Totally. Right.

You want to improve things to Provide a better service, to provide a better product. And it gave you your own satisfaction. This is like a circle that you work very hard to improve it, and you get really good feedback. It's like, wow, this just worth it, you know?

Yeah, it's interesting. I was just having a conversation via text with Lindsay the other day. I sent her a text and just said, like, hey, how's your day going? Or something like that. And she just talked about this idea of essentially exactly what we're talking about. She's like, I feel like I'm in this headspace of, like, feeling like everybody's doing awesome stuff and I want to do awesome stuff. And yet we also have our two girls and we want to spend time with them and, like, the tension of the things of normal life that we're needing to get done. And one of the things that we started to talk about, and it's a concept I'm trying to develop, and I'll pitch it to you and you let me know if it makes sense. But I'm calling it Life Soup. And it's this idea that we all have the ability to define the ingredients in our life soup, and one of those is our work, like, entrepreneurial pursuits. There's also, like, health, there's family, there's friends, there's spirituality. There's, you know, all of these things. And all of those are ingredients in life Soup. And what we need to do is say, here's how much, like, meat I want to have in my life soup. Or tofu, if you're for sure.

Yeah, Yeah, I totally agree. Yeah.

And. And if work is the meat and you double it, suddenly you might be in a position where you have too much of it, but to acknowledge that and say, like, my. My soup ingredients aren't going to be the same as somebody else's soup ingredients. And what tastes good to me isn't what's going to taste good to other people. And, like, sitting in that truth and saying, like, and I'm comfortable with that. And not that our soup ingredients never change.

Yeah. Yeah.

Two years from now might look different, but.

Yeah.

As a recipe developer, does that analogy resonate?

Yeah, and it's hard. It took me forever, and I feel like now I kind of get in to that point, but no, still now. Quiet. I. I feel like I have a. Like, because you asked me, like, what. What does it really mean? You know, like, what is the goal? The final. Because I. For me, personally, I want to. I think this. The best thing about this job, food blogging, is that it gave me the freedom of flexibility of my time.

Yeah.

Because, you know, this whole purpose is like, you know, I have time to do something else, to relax when I want to, or to connect with my friend or to different things.

Yeah. So there's a. There's somebody I follow on Twitter, and by follow I mean, like, I go occasionally check the Twitter account. So I'm not like, active on Twitter. But he was talking about this idea that they need to have. You know, a lot of people in the finance world talk about net worth like that as an indicator. He said they need to have a net worth equivalent for time flexibility and freedom. Like, if, if, if you could quantify that, like, that would be something that would be really interesting to track. And I've thought a lot about that as a type of income that our work can give us, how much flexibility and freedom do we get? And like you said, it's a huge benefit. But the hard part is there's not a real good way to track it. And even if you are tracking it personally, it's not externally tracking it.

No.

Like, it's not like you look at somebody's social media following and you see they have a huge social media following, and you see they have huge flexibility and freedom. They might have a huge following, but are also, like, tied to their work in a way that feels like they can't disconnect.

Yeah.

So if you figure out a way to track that, let me know.

Yeah, I'll think about that. That's interesting to know. Yeah.

But you are at this point, and it's worth acknowledging where a lot of people would look at what you're doing and the success you've had and be like, oh, I so badly wish that I could get there. Right. So you have millions of page views that you're getting to your site. You have a cookbook, you have an established social media following. When you look back at your journey, what were the things that you felt like not only allowed you to keep going when it was hard, especially in those early years, but what are the things that helped you from burning out once you got into the, you know, year seven, year eight, year nine, where you had been doing it for a really long time?

So I think it does help that. So, so one thing is that I think you just have to keep doing it, no matter. It's like, you know, how, how much or how little every week? Because I still remember, like, the magic number of, like, blog posts is like 3 posts per week or something. Like, there's, there's Some discussion about like how many you should be posting and people. There are people doing five, there are two people doing like how many numbers. And I just remember that I don't, I never really like, I think like for me 2 to 3 posts is like really ideal. And at this point I'm pretty much doing actually 1, 102. But I know it's like, I know I just need to keep doing this. Like the key is to be persistent when you don't feel like it, you still have to like I always try to do something like I don't really give me hard rules about like oh, you know, if, if I'm out reaching three, I'm like a failure or something. I think you, you kind of have to be not too hard on yourself to, you know, because I, what happened was like in the past was like I really, really passionate about a project and I work a lot and then I burn out for a month I was like, oh no, this month I just completely cannot work at all. I feel like one thing that I found during the years are just like you need to set a pace that you have to be realistic about your pace like exactly how much you can do. It took me, I feel like years to figure out how much I can do and not overdo things. And also there's so many burns out and all that in between. And I think one thing I realized early on was to have a team because it's just like there's just so many things, like so much you have to do. Any little things that you can outsource because every little things they take a little bit of your brain power away. They just take a little bit energy away and there's like a thousand things you will have to do. Like everybody knows that if you blog and as much like outsource as much as you can and you know, to find out the budget and you know, like the task. I feel like there's like a balance. Like I, I remember really early on when I was just earning very little money even it was like little. When it was even like not really a full time income. I, I remember I started to hire a little help here and there because I realized that I cannot do everything myself. I'm just going to burn out because so I rather to have less myself to you know, to let people help me so I can keep this going. Like I think it really helped that I never really like, you know, stopped doing this.

The persistence piece I feel like is important and one of the things that I don't know if we've really talked about on the podcast, but it's a really good point. Is trading to the degree that you can. Trading. Well, so much of what we do is it's all trading like, yeah, we build a following and we trade some of the attention of that following for ad revenue. We trade some of the, you know, attention that we have on social media to get brand recognition.

Yeah.

One of the things that, that you acknowledge that I feel like is important to point out is we can also trade money for headspace or clarity of thought or freedom.

Yeah.

And even if it's those small things, oftentimes you're getting tangible benefits, even just psychologically by saying, I'm going to bring somebody on and pay them a hundred dollars a month to do whatever it is like to, yeah, check my DMs on Instagram or something like that. And energy. Money really is energy. Right. And I've heard people talk about this. What we're doing is we're. It's almost like electricity. We're getting this in and then we can decide what to do with it. And we can direct it towards. Exactly somebody who can help us. We can direct it towards, you know, a bank account where it's kind of this, like stored energy. But to think about that not as just money, but to think about it as energy that we can direct and influence and impact. And it sounds like you did that in the early stages. What were some of those early tasks that you had people help with and talk about your journey with getting help and how that's been important?

It was really basic things like, you know, uploading the blog post to WordPress, you know, like, like I have. Have a very basic spreadsheet, like have all my content. So I kind of, you know, like always thinking about, like, it's funny, it's something I do every time I had major burnout. It's just like, okay, I can't, I feel like I cannot do this anymore. I started to think, I'm going to list all the tasks that I hate to do and see what I can outsource and what I can afford. So I think like uploading blog posts and like, you know, social media and stuff. So I figured out some workflow because, you know, the help I help I had at the very beginning was very, very basic. Like, so they're not going to help me write caption or anything, but I do keep everything in one file. You have this like, little file, work file of. This is a post. Like, what are keywords? You know, this is Captions like what do you do when I give this to you? You know, someone will upload this to WordPress and Facebook Pinterest like blah, blah, blah. And you know, so it's it, you know, it. Everything helps. Just this like it just saved me so much time to do like those like little, little job, you know, after. After actually getting the post down and like later on I had help in the kitchen to help me like clean up and do in prev and all those things like really help with me shooting videos and you know, everything.

So yeah, how did you find those people like in the early stages to help upload a blog post or people.

That was hard. I think I was like, you know, it was pretty hot at the time. They're like hiring VA from overseas. So I did think I tried out one VA services which actually did not work out. It's always like I think online, like eventually I think it was like recommended by some friend, my blogger friend, like the person I'm still keep working with. But I did use like different source. You know, they're like ba posting website where you can hire all those like overseas, you know, play people based in like Philippines or like India and all that.

Sure.

So yeah, I tried. I tried quite a few things.

Yep. I feel like that's the. That's the solution is like doing it and then figuring out what works and doesn't work. And in anything that I've done, the quickest way to get to the best current solution is to try and figure it out and try and do it and inevitably what you'll learn along the way is what.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So there's so. And also you have to hire different people from different platform. And then I think I use a certain. At one time I use upwork to find a copy editor and the copywriting for like little project things. And then I use Craigslist to hire help in the. In the kitchen because that's where like all the restaurant work at. You know, it's like a different. It's so funny because there's one time I post this like something for social media on Craislist, like oh my God, like a hundred spam mail. It was like, like this like terrible. Like I'll never do this again. Yeah, yeah.

Like so many people reaching out. I can help with social media, but it was these like automated bots that were.

Yeah, it's like terrible. I was like, yeah, social media hire for social media. You have to be on social media to hire them.

So yeah, the idea you had mentioned this kind of briefly, but I had never. It seems so obvious. I'd never thought of this. But if you're looking for somebody to help with kitchen stuff, one of the best groups of people would be people who are familiar working in kitchens. Like. Yeah. Whether it's a commercial kitchen or a restaurant, like, that being a skill. And I'm sure there's like, really tangible.

Things that people can. It's really, really easy in a way, because restaurant work is so hard. Like, home kitchen is so, like, like, literally one of my working benefit is like a very chill environment.

Yeah, right. Like, it's not like there's this intense turnaround that you need to get a meal out or angry customers who are going to be mad if something's not right.

Yeah. And, and actually, and usually, like, you know, I guess depending on where you live, but usually you can pay a little bit more than restaurant.

Sure.

Because restaurant wages are very, very low.

Yeah.

And. And, you know, depending on the, you know, skill set you want, like, for me, it's like there are different, you know, levels, but if you would only, you know, for the very basic things, even if you have someone to just wash your dishes and just do a very simple prep work, you know, how will get your kitchen organized when you're shooting and pulling out 100 plates, that just help a lot. So, like, that, that is like, I, I, that's like a person I cannot, like, live without. Like, I always, wherever I move, like, we move quite a bit in recent years that this is the first person I actually need to, like, immediately post advertisement.

Get somebody to come and help. When you're doing. You have a shoot day.

Yeah, yeah.

Yep. What does that look like? Specifically when they come in, do you have directives for that person? Like, here's what we need to do. Can you get started on this? Or.

For the most part, it's pretty, it's pretty easy because it's like, you know, you give them the recipe and I have all the ingredients ready. I also have people who actually help with shopping, but that's what I find out. Like, I really need to do the shopping myself because you need to know which vegetable to buy is like, pre here.

Yeah, yeah. That's important.

Yeah. So, you know, I usually have recipes prepared and I tell them, like, oh, these are the things I want to shoot. And they usually know how to, you know, it's like, okay, they started prep things and I always tell them, you know, all the individual, you know, all the ingredients in their individual bowls and, you know, like, just like, very basic things. And no, like, people, they really pretty much, like, know what to do. They just do the, you know, simple preps and got my stuff ready and help me, you know, sometimes, like, move around my equipment and, you know, just clean up afterwards. Yeah.

And that stuff is so incredibly helpful. One of the things I've been thinking a lot about is what are all of the things that I do in a day that it wouldn't matter if I do them or not? And there's a lot, like, I do a lot of stuff in a day that doesn't matter if I would do it. Not. It still needs to get done.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's still important, but it doesn't matter if I'm the one doing it. And I, as content creators, I feel like part of our job is to, as much as possible, be trying to get rid of the stuff that doesn't matter if we do it and have somebody help with that and do as much of what we can do that does matter if it's us doing it, so. Exactly. If I can shave off 8 hours of Bjork isn't essential to this work. Type of work. And we fold in another podcast, and so then we're doing two podcasts a week. Whoa. That's a huge win. I should probably think about that. But somehow I'm in my email for, like, two to three hours a day.

I mean, it is hard for me. It's like, you know, one of the things I always wanted to outsource was video editing.

Sure.

But I just can't because I feel like every time I try out some, like, I've tried quite a few services and, like, individuals and, you know, professionals, I just feel like the flow is not me. Like, I feel like I have to look through it and I know exactly what clip I want to use. It's just like, the music and everything, because, you know, at the time when I write down everything, it was like, oh, I need this and this and that. I already finished editing, so that just never worked out.

Yeah.

You know, it's so hard.

It's. And some of that stuff, you know, I. I think there's a spectrum for creators for each type of medium in regards to how much of their fingerprint they want on it. Like, the idea of having somebody write for you for some people would be like, no way, I can't do that. For others, they're like, oh, my gosh, so nice to have somebody come in and write.

I know, I tried it. I tried it before for a while. It Was. It did. Like, I. That was a very serious burnout. Like, I seriously had burnout at the time. I think I did hire someone to write blog post. And later on, like, a few years later, I go, I have to go back to rewriting.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's in maybe worth acknowledging too. I feel like there are seasons where you need to step back from something and then come back into it. We've done that and experience that. I know Lindsay has as well.

Yeah.

So, speaking of writing, I'm. I'd be interested to hear you talk a little bit about when you approach a recipe. You know, these are. How would you describe your recipes? I know you have a tagline, but I'd just be interested to hear your. In your own words, kind of your approach to recipe development and kind of the genre of recipes, the category of recipes that you're creating.

So pretty much, you know, it's. It's mostly Chinese food. I do a little bit more creative fusion and different cuisine, but mostly it's focused on Chinese food. And I this. I try to make my recipe, like, very, very clear. I want it to be very. That everyone can follow, no matter they're familiar with Chinese cooking or not. Because I had experience of, you know, because I actually learned cooking not from my parents, it's from recipes. And I had experience of reading different type of writing, like, you know, recipes, and some are really, really confusing and that I couldn't follow. And I followed, like, really nice recipes, like, really clear recipes. So. And so to. To make me feel like, oh, when I write, I want people to exactly know what they're doing. Like, you know, I even described the, like, how, you know, the size of things you're cutting. You know, like, not just the shape, but the size. And, you know, like, I. I try, like, my rice, we tend to run a little bit long. I feel like sometimes it's like, it feel like, man, this look like intimidating because it's so long. But I feel like if I don't describe it really well, because Chinese cooking, you know, the longer I'm doing this, I feel like it's actually kind of complicated. So, so. So there are some. There are certain things. And also I. I observe people cook. I have friends or like, even when I have help in the kitchen, you know, usually they're not from China. And I observe people cook on it and how they follow recipes. Like, wow, I cannot believe you're doing. You slice it this way. I was like, there's so many ways you have to, you know, thin slice, ginger like, there are slices like paper. I was like, no, you cannot slice like that. It's just. It's interesting to. Over the years, I feel like, oh, this part, I really need to make it clear or I need to use the image or I need to create a video. They're just all things combined. I want people to. Able to follow it as much as they can with very little confusion.

Yeah. So in. In some of your recipes, you're including the. Then the English, but then also the Chinese name for it. Is that a search consideration? Like, would there be people?

Yes and no. So the. The ones that have Chinese are the. You know, those dishes that are from China.

Sure.

That. Where they actually, like. I know they have this name.

Yeah.

Because there are dishes that are American Chinese takeout, or a little bit more like. Oh, like, wouldn't say creative, but yeah, there. There are dishes that are not that traditional.

Sure.

So only the very, very traditional ones has Chinese. Just so you know, like. Like, because I just want people to know this is. Yeah, we have this in China.

Got it. It's almost like a little bit of a branding consideration around something that's considered more authentic versus a little bit of a spin or fusion or whatever it might be. Got it. Yeah. So as you approach content today, one of the things that you talked about, and I think it's a really valuable conversation, is this idea of burnout. You talked a couple times about, like, these seasons of burnout. My guess is that somebody's listening to the podcast and they're either in that season, maybe they've been in one, or if not, there's probably pretty good chance that they'll experience one if they continue to, like, show up every day, do the work, like, inevitably. It just is overwhelming. It feels like there's so much that we have to do, and we're also operating in this space of social media, which I feel like doesn't necessarily help.

I try to limit my time.

Yeah. Like, mental complexities of social media plays into some of the burnout stuff. What have you learned in those seasons and then coming out of those that has allowed you to continue to show up every week?

And I feel like one thing I discovered over the years is that that's very personal. Like, that's. For me, I think this is different for everybody. But for me, it's like, I think I cannot just do one thing. I have to. I mean, by one thing, I mean just food blogging. I have to have some sort of project going on the side to keep me, because I've Been doing this so long, it's so like business focused, you know, it's less about like, oh, I had this nice dish in a restaurant. I really want to recreate it, you know, like, I just want to talk about it. It's more like what my reader want, what my readers need. You know, like ico doing the research. There are just so many business decision that is involved that actually like, you know, keep your blog growing. But I need a little bit something, something else to get my creativity outlet.

Yeah.

So over the years I, I try so many different things. I, you know, sometimes I learn photography. Like, but I learned actually I learned from like, not from food bloggers. I go to different seminars. It's like, you know, like landscape or portrait or whatever. I just feel like you have to do something. You know, I take on project. Like I did a fashion a little bit. I, you know, I went out, it was actually related to a job. Like I got to know from some fashion bloggers and I realized that, oh, I really love to shoot for them. They're so pretty. Like no matter how I shoot it, they're just like, the photos just come out so nice. So I started to, to become, to advertise. Like, oh, I, I can, I can shoot for you. So I did a little bit project here and there for profession shows and all that stuff. You know, it's. For me, it's like these. For those things, I do not earn money at all. It cost me time and money to do that. But it's, it's such a. Interesting way to learn things, to connect with interesting people and keep my, you know, like creativity juice running, I think.

Yeah. Yeah.

You know, like, it's just over time it can be different things, but for me, it's like I have to have something. You know, when I feel like I couldn't really. I feel like I reached to a stage. I cannot really, how to say, express my creativity through my business anymore because, you know, I kind of just like, oh, today I want to try a new, different type of like food photography style because I feel like I just cannot do that kind of thing anymore. So I have to try out somewhere else.

Yeah, that's great. I was listening to this podcast. It's. It's actually one that I've most or recently started listening to. It's called We Study Billionaires. But they do interviews with these, you know, successful business owners or investors. And this most recent one, which we can link to in the show notes, was with a guy named Jason Karp. But he talked about He's a really successful hedge fund guy, investor, but he was like obsessive about work. And it started to have these really serious health implications for him. And so he went to see a therapist and, you know, some other kind of specialists. And one of the things they said is we're going to re. We require you to at least two hours a day do something that isn't productivity related. He talked about how hard it was for him, but also how beneficial it was. And it kind of ties into that like, life soup idea where, okay, if I'm missing a key ingredient, let's say like creativity in what we're doing, if I'm not getting that from my work and like, if that is salt and it's not in my life soup, that's going to taste really bland. It's going to be really different. And so how do I be aware of that and say I'm willing to reduce one of the ingredients that's maybe too. There's too much of that in order to put this other ingredient in?

Yeah, I think it's also tied into the, you know, what we talked about earlier that, you know, there's the balance of, you know, your time, your energy and the money. And I was saying, you know, the flexibility of this job. You know, I, you know, a part of what I want is that, you know, when I want to do something else, like, you know, I want to do a totally different photo shoot project or like whatever or networking or hang out with friends, I have the ability to do it. I think this is a part of the, you know, this whole balance that I'm trying to create.

Yep. And it's also, I'd be interested in your thoughts on this because I think one of the things that exists or us is my guess is, and correct me if I'm wrong on this, my guess is that one of the reasons that you can do that now is because you didn't do as much of that for a season like that. You were really focused. You were in building mode for sure. And what's hard to know is at what point do you start to release a little bit and say, I have done this, I have built this. It is self sustaining to some degree. It's not like you can completely step back, but it doesn't need as much coal in the engine of the train to keep it going. But it's also scary to make some of those shifts and changes because you've been doing it for so long. It's helped you get to a point where now you can have some of that flexibility. Was it hard for you to kind of maybe downshift in some ways or refocus?

Yeah, it was hard. It was tough, I think because there was one time, like years ago I had this major burnout. Like, by major burnout, I mean like, everything's keep going. But it took me a year to count off that. You know, it's like I was still cooking and doing like, I was doing everything. The blog was never affected. But at that time, I have to really hire out a lot more. I feel like they're part. There is a part of the contents, like, not me anymore. Like, I feel really bad about that. But all the time I was like, no, I cannot just. I just can't. Was drinking a lot. Have drinking issues, like all that. But. But it took me a long time to. But then I also realized, so. But at the time when I was outsourcing all kinds of stuff, I realized that afterwards I realized, oh, these are the things I need to take back. You know, these are the things where I express my creativities. But those are the things like, you know, this need to. Someone else need to do it. Like, it was like a really long process for me to understand. I feel like now I'm like, at a much better place.

Yeah.

For that balance, I think it's.

It's also. It'll be encouraging for people to hear that. I think in my conversations with creators, I think it's a really common thing to experience that and to. To wonder and question, like, should I keep doing this? Is it. Is it the right fit for me? I really like that idea. It's almost like in college, I remember I went to the allergist and he's like, we're gonna need you to essentially remove everything from your diet. And then.

Right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

To see what you're allergic to. And it feels like the work version of that.

Like, I feel like. Because I was like, also, like I said, you know, and all kinds of stuff are like, this is just like, no good. After a while, I'm taking it back.

Yep. And if people can't afford to actually outsource, you might just consider not doing it.

We know it's not that expensive, but also I was trying to find really cheap help, like on fiverr and stuff. Like, it's so cheap, you know, like, you can't actually.

We have a global market.

Yeah, yeah.

And you can find people for certain things. Depending on what it is.

Yeah. For sure.

And affordable. Affordable rate. That's great. So how about for people who are in the beginning stages now? Like, let's say they are in that year one, year two, year three, they're interested in building a following online. You know, it's not going to 10 years from now. It's definitely not going to look somebody's journey Starting today, in 10 years from now isn't going to look the same as what yours is or ours is where we started 10 years ago. I think we all know that. But I'm, I've never been more optimistic about the ability for somebody who's creative, motivated, willing.

Oh yeah, for sure.

To create something in the world that's impactful and that's also can potentially be, you know, life changing for them. So what would your advice be as a seasoned vet?

Oh my God.

So hard for somebody who is in those early stages for how they can find success.

I think, I think you really just should like, you know, learn a lot from others, you know, successful people. Be yourself at the same time. Like, I know this is super hard actually. And the most important thing, I think I feel like you just need to do it like that. That is my really the biggest advice. Because I had friends who wanted to do this for the longest time. They're like, oh, I'm practicing my photography. The blog will be up in a few months. I'm like, no, no, no, it needs to start today. Like I have different also people from not just food blog for different things. But I feel like if you want to blog about something, you just let, you need to let it be out of there so people, you know, people can criticize, you know that you have a feedback and then you, you know, you, you can only improve it, but keep doing it. You can never like, oh, I'm just gonna, I forgot to go for a few seminar first before I even start. Like that would just never work.

Yeah, it's almost like trying to grow a plant in the basement. It's like if it never sees the light of day, like it's not going to be able to grow. And I think the same is true for our creative work or our businesses or for sure.

I think for, for now, if you're starting now, you just need to try out different things. Like, I mean it's, it's always hard at the beginning. You have to work a lot. You have to, you know, I feel like everything, you have to do it yourself by yourself once. Right. Like if you don't know how to do it, you don't know how to outsource it. You have to understand it. And. And then, you know, during this, this journey, you kind of can find out what is your strengths. Because some people, you know, they're. They're really good at social media. They're like. For me, it's like, I only focus on SEO, like, because this is like my strengths. And, you know, you. There are so many different things that you can focus on and make your content unique and standing out. And there's also different ways of making money because traffic, I mean, like, of course, flip blog, like, you always want traffic, but there's like, I feel like now there are so many different ways of, like, you know, building your brand, like building a product. So I. I think you just need to try it out.

Yeah. And I think what will happen inevitably, too, and I've found this with our work is like, as you try it out, you'll figure out where. Where's that sweet spot for you? Where's the link?

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah.

And sometimes it's not as a blogger or an Instagrammer and it's a programmer or it's a photographer.

I think so.

Yeah. But you don't know until.

Right. Exactly. I think it's one of the biggest things that actually, I really love about Food Blog is that it's just opened so many doors. You know, you learn about so many jobs that it doesn't even, like, you didn't even know exist. Because I feel like sometimes I feel like, oh, what if some, you know, one of these days, you know, the blogging just doesn't work anymore. I don't. I feel like it won't be working forever. Maybe someday it's going to slightly decline or whatever, but I feel like, oh, you know, I have all those skills. I actually know there are other things I can do.

Yes, totally. Like, what you've done is you've developed a craft.

Yeah.

And that craft is applicable in many different areas, whether it's exactly fashion photography or styling or like, all of those things that, you know, can be applied in other ways, which I think is great. Maggie, if people want to follow along with you, keep up with what you're up to, make some of your recipes, any. Any of that. What's the best way to do that?

Almost all the time, you know, like, of course, go visit my food blog, Omniverse Cookbook.com and subscribe my newsletter. That's where I actually write my weekly newsletter. And I reply my reader's email and I'm on. I'm on Instagram mostly. Do not contact me through Facebook. Or Pinterest or whatever. And I never check them.

No Pinterest messages.

Instagram, you can. You can DM me on Instagram.

Yeah, that's great. And I really love that the newsletter focus. I think it's one of the things that often gets neglected in this space is a really intentional, focused newsletter and very important.

Yeah.

Also love the idea of that being a place where you have some of those conversations.

One of the hardest thing every week is like what I did this week that I can talk about. It's like I need to write about something. But that's where you connect with your readers that when you actually want to announce something that you know, they will respond. So yeah, very important.

That's great. Maggie, thanks so much for sharing your story. I know it resonated with me a lot. I think there's a lot of other creators and bloggers who are going to get a lot out of it and excited to follow along with you as you continue to build your following and continue to build Omnivore's Cookbook. So thanks for coming on.

Well, thank you for inviting me. It's so much fun talking to you.

Hello there Emily here from the Food Blogger Pro team. We hope you enjoyed listening to this week's episode of the podcast. Before we sign off today, I wanted to mention one of the most valuable parts of the Food Blogger Pro membership and that's our courses. In case you don't already know, as soon as you become a Food Blogger Pro member, you immediately get access to all of our courses. Here on Food Blogger Pro. We have hours and hours of courses available, including SEO for Food, Blogs, Food Photography, Google Analytics, Social media, and social media sponsored content. All of these courses have been recorded by the Food Blogger Pro team or some of our industry experts and they're truly a wealth of knowledge. We're always updating our courses so you can rest assured that you're getting the most up to date information as you're working to grow your blog and your business. You can get access to all of our courses by joining Food Blogger Pro. Just head to foodbloggerpro.com join to learn more about the membership and join our code community. Thanks again for tuning in and listening to the podcast. Make it a great week.