414: How Kyleigh Sage Combines Brand Work and Ad Revenue to Make $10,000-$15,000 a Month

This episode is sponsored by Clarity. C L A R I T I. And I kid you not, I was going to record this half an hour ago, but I was in Clarity and realized there's an opportunity for Pinch of Yam that is a project we should move forward with. So I created a video, communicated it with a Pinch of Yum team, and said, hey, we should move forward on this and really get to work cleaning this up. In our case, what I had done is I said, hey, show me all of the posts in the past year on Pinch of Yum. And then I sort ordered that in reverse order by page views. So I was looking at pages that on Pinch of Yum in the last year got zero page views and I realized we have a lot of really thin, not valuable content and it's important to clean that up. In our case, we're gonna delete a lot of that content and we should have done that a long time ago, but we just didn't get around to it. And it wasn't until I was using Clarity that I realized that that was something that we should have done. I was able to see that a.

Lot of, like, old giveaway posts and things like that.

So we're going to move forward with that and clean up Pinch of Yum. And that's what Clarity is for. It's to help you discover that actionable information to create a project around it. And either you can follow the project or you can assign it to somebody within your team and then track the impact that that has by making notes or seeing when you made those changes over time. We bring all the information in from WordPress, Google Search Console, and Google Analytics. You hook it all up and. And then you can sort, order, and use Clarity kind of like a Swiss army knife for your content. So if you're interested in checking it out, go to clarity.com food C-L-A-R-I-T-I.com food and that will get you 50% off your first month. Thanks to Clarity for sponsoring this episode.

Welcome to the Food Blogger Pro Podcast. This is Emily from the Food Blogger Pro team. This week on the podcast, Bjork is interviewing Kylie Sage from the blog Barley and Sage. Kylie has only been blogging for a few short years, but she's already had really tremendous success in that short time. In this interview, Bjork and Kylie chat a lot about partnering with brands on sponsored content and freelance work, including how to effectively pitch to brands and negotiate your contracts. Kylie also shares more about what she recommends for maintaining good relationships with brands and PR agencies and how she recommends calculating your rates for brand work. When Kylie first started out blogging, she was working a pretty demanding full time job. And she has lots of insights into how she balanced working a full time job with growing her blog. She also shares more about how an SEO audit early on in her blogging days transformed the way she approached her blog and helped her to qualify for mediavine. Kylie is super honest and transparent about her strategies for working with brands and how she navigates pricing her own work. It's clear that she loves helping other food bloggers and is passionate about supporting those in the community and helping them to find success. We hope this episode will resonate with you and we're really excited to share it with you. So we'll just let Bjork take it away.

Kylie, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here.

Yeah, we're going to be talking about how to make money from the work that you're doing, which I think is not for everybody, but for a lot of people, that's what they're trying to do. We're trying to figure out how to do this work that we love, that we're passionate about, that we're excited about.

And not only to do that work.

But to figure out ways to get compensated for it. And you've done that with your social following and your blog.

One of the things that's interesting with your story is that you actually started and went full time working on this.

Before your blog was a, you know, really got traction. You talk about how you weren't at the point where you had been accepted to mediavine and you were already working full time on your creative work, being a creator. So what did that look like when.

You, when you started to work on.

Your, like you're publishing, you're creating full time, and what were the decisions that went into deciding to jump in and do it full time?

Yes. So I started blogging as just like a hobby in December of 2019. And so obviously we all know what happened a few months after that.

Yeah.

So I kind of had. It was kind of a right place, right time, kind of a thing. So I had just started blogging just like as a hobby. I've always loved cooking and baking and been developing my own recipes and had just started getting into like photography, realizing like, oh, this is really cool, this is really fun. Like, you know, let's just see where it goes. Like, I had no idea.

Enjoyable. It's a craft. Like, it's a fun thing to do. Yeah, yeah.

In the beginning, I had no real, like, ambition. I didn't even really understand that people could make money from doing any of this. And so right around the time that the pandemic kind of kicked off, my husband, who was my boyfriend at the time, was. Had just gotten selected to be a pilot in the Air Force. And so we were kind of starting to have these like, awkward conversations around.

Like, yeah, totally, because you're just dating at this point. Yeah, well.

And like, we. We were at a point in our relationship where we knew it was going somewhere, but, like, too early to like, really fully make that call.

Sure.

So we were having these conversations around, like, okay, if we're gonna stay together, what does that look like for me and my career? Because for anyone who doesn't know, military families are typically moving roughly every three years or so. So it's really, really hard for military spouses to kind of have a stable career in most industries.

And what were you doing at the time?

So it's like, a little awkward because people are always like, what? I actually, I worked for the FBI in D.C. i did medical logistics. And.

Wow. So nothing natural transition into, like, publishing food content.

So it was an incredibly cool job. It paid really well. But it was something that was only based in D.C. i could not go somewhere else and keep that career, keep those connections.

So what with that job specifically, I'm just so curious. What were you doing? Or like, if you tell me, will I get like a.

No, no, no. I think yeah. So I basically did medical logistics. So it's the same kind of thing where, like, if someone is working at a hospital, like, you're doing all of the supplies, ordering all sorts of like, intricate stuff because, like, the FBI has their own, like, paramedics and like nurses and doctors and stuff. And we also have like, medical details for like, the Attorney General and like, things like that. So I was kind of in charge of all that kind of stuff. And then also on this kind of part of my job, I was like a part time instructor at Quantico teaching, like, emergency trauma medicine. So it was the coolest job in the world. I loved it.

Yeah.

But again, it's only based in that one city. And unfortunately it just wasn't something that, like, I could really translate into like, something else easily.

Sure.

And so I had kind of like.

Starting a blog on medical logistics.

Yeah, exactly. So I had kind of planned on like being in DC Kind of forever. Like, I loved dc. I loved being there. I loved my job. So Again, yeah. Like I said, it kind of was this weird time of, like, well, he's doing this and going to be moving no matter what.

Right. So, like, what, do you love your job and want to stay there, but also you love your husband, then boyfriend? It feels like a difficult, difficult crossroads.

It is. And having a career and, like, my own financial independence is also something that's always been very important to me. And so that's all happening right around the beginning of the pandemic. And so he finds out, he gets selected and is supposed to leave pretty soon. And then the pandemic happens, and they're like, okay, this is on hold indefinitely. So we were kind of like, okay, we have more time to figure this out because you're not leaving anytime soon. And then right around that same time, the few recipes I did have on my blog were sourdough.

Oh, interesting. Yeah.

And as we all know, beginning of pandemic, everyone is making sourdough. So I kind of got this, like, unexpected boost right towards the beginning, both on social and a little bit of traffic on my blog. But, you know, we're talking pretty small numbers. But I got kind of a boost on social media because everyone was making sourdough, and that just so happened to be the content that I was producing. And again, I had already, like, realized I loved it just, like, a couple of months in. So I kind of realized this could kind of be the answer. I want to see if I can make this work. So we kind of sat down and I was like, okay, you're probably not going anywhere for a year. I want to see if I can make this work in a year because that would allow me to move with you. I could do this job from anywhere. I still get to maintain that financial independence that's so important to me. I think we can do this. And he was like, I mean, okay.

So you set it. What's great about that is you set kind of a deadline. I will occasionally refer to my dad on the podcast and the quotes that he has. One of them is, a deadline is the greatest motivator. In this case, it really is where you have this point where you. It sounds like you didn't know, like, okay, you're going to be leaving whatever, you know, June 1, 2022. But it's like, you know, eventually there's going to be a date where he's going to move. He's going to be somewhere different. And so you either are moving somewhere, finding a new job, and then working at it for three years, or remote job and so you said, okay, I'm going to try and make this thing work that I know that I'll love and I know it will be transferable. It's remote, it's location independent, it doesn't matter where I am. And so then did you quit your job and get after it or did you work on it like nights and weekends?

Yeah. So what's interesting is I got to start working from home a decent amount. There's. I started to go into the office a decent bit because, you know, just security things. But I got to start working at home more, which I had like a two hour commute. So I all of a sudden had extra time I didn't previously have.

Yeah.

And again, I was making decent money and so I was able to kind of, you know, take all that disposable income that I was lucky to have and really just like invest in a way that I think a lot of people don't necessarily have the means to do in the beginning. And yeah, you know, money, it does make everything easier.

Sure. It's time or money. And if you have a lot of time or if you have more money, it's going to accelerate the process of whatever it is that you're working on, like the business that you're working on. But also you have to be smart about it. It's not like magically putting money into a thing results in growth. So what was it in those early stages that you were investing in?

So I was really investing in photography. So equipment, kind of courses, just learning as much as possible because I feel like I saw that as like the most immediate way to make money was with the photography aspect. So I poured a ton of.

Why is that?

I mean, I've always been interested in photography. Like, you know, I was on like yearbook staff in high school and stuff. And so like it's. I was never good at it, but it's something that always interested me. And so I was kind of like, well, I would enjoy learning this skill anyway. And I mean, I guess I have a lot of friends that are like wedding photographers or like I know people that are in photography industries and I know there's money there. So I just kind of assumed that photography was kind of that like gateway into like making money quickly. And so I invested a lot of money up front into that kind of stuff and also just like props and like stuff to make my photos more exciting and interesting. And obviously you don't need all of that stuff.

Sure.

But I had money to spend essentially, so I feel like I Just really invested a lot in those first few months and pretty quickly started getting reached out to by brands for kind of like photography work and stuff in general when I only had a couple thousand followers. And can you talk about what that was like?

Because I think what. What's interesting is and worth pointing out is you said, okay, I have this disposable income. Some people would spend it on, you know, a new couch and other people would buy a car or. And none of that stuff is bad. But you said, you know what? I'm actually going to invest. And Warren Buffett talks about this when people are like, what's the best investment? He's like, investing in yourself. And it sounds like that's a version of what you were doing. You were getting equipment that helped you shoot to a certain caliber. You were investing in courses that allowed you to learn and accelerated, you know, the process of gathering information that's going to allow you to do what you want to do better. And the result of that, I think that's what's important, is that naturally your photography gets better. And it sounds like what happened then as you were posting, social media brands would reach out to you and say, what, can we hire you to take pictures? Or what were they saying at that point?

Yeah, essentially I just started getting pitched by, like, smaller brands at first, just asking for, like, either sponsored posts or just like, freelance work that, you know, they were just going to post on their accounts because my account wasn't very big. So there wasn't a whole lot of benefit to me posting.

Sure.

But they saw a benefit of using my photography to promote their product.

Yeah, because the photography is great and they want their product to be featured in a way that makes it look great. And so. And worth pointing out with that, it's a little bit of a tangent, but before we get too far away from it, I think it's important for anybody listening to be reminded of this fact that, like, good work wins the day. And it doesn't matter how many followers you have, if your work is good, it will eventually get noticed. And I know good is like, very abstract and very subjective, but I think generally what we're trying to get at is like, it's not the tip, it's not the tactic. It's really the work that you're producing. And it's not about. We say this occasionally. It's not about how many, it's about who. And in your case, it's a great example of that. You have, you know, maybe a handful thousand followers, but the who there's somebody in that following that recognized your good work and said, I want to, I want to connect with you and I want to, I want to work together. So tell us about some of those early deals. Did you end up working with those brands and how did you know how to get started?

I mean, I had no idea how to get started. So I just kind of started reaching out to other bloggers honestly and being like, hey, what do you charge? Like, have you done this before? Like, and I think that that is such an important aspect is that like community with other people in your industry. And I mean there's a whole list of names that I could credit of people that were so, so helpful in kind of helping me figure out how to get started. But also my now husband, he had like done a lot of like businessy type stuff and like run businesses for other people in the past. And so he kind of had a lot of knowledge into like that side of things that I didn't have. So he was also very helpful in just helping me kind of like with the initial kind of like negotiating and starting to figure things out. And to me, since I had a full time job and I didn't necessarily need this extra money, it was also very easy for me to say no to things that just didn't seem worth my time. And I think that that's something that new people especially struggle with is figuring out what is worth your time and how to pass on those opportunities. Because you kind of. There's definitely a level of desperation I think of like, well, I have to work with every single brand that reaches out because you know, it's kind of like an opportunity cost type situation. So again, I think I was very lucky that I had a job that was paying my rent, so I didn't necessarily have to say yes to everything. And that helped me. I also think like raise my rates very early on because I was getting a certain amount of inquiries for you know, like a couple hundred bucks here and there. And that's when I kind of started realizing this isn't worth makes so much more sense to be charging more money and taking on less clients than killing yourself, trying to do all of these different projects for just like a couple hundred bucks here and there. And so honestly it was a little bit just kind of like I just got kind of thrown in and figured it out and also just really loved it in the process, which I think is also important because I think there's so many people that get into this and then realize they don't love the business side of everything, which you don't necessarily have to, but it's definitely helpful if you do enjoy that side of things as well. And it's something I never really expected to enjoy, but I really, really do. And so it's been a lot of fun, just kind of, like, figuring that out and learning from other people and, you know, implementing different, like, tips and tricks and ideas from, like, other creators that I followed. And obviously, like, your. Your podcast and, like, other resources have also been so great and kind of figuring out stuff like that, too.

Yeah, it feels like one of the keys with what we do is, you know, you mentioned enjoying the business side. There's going to be a lot of people who are listening, who are like, oh, that's the. My least favorite part of it. I just want to figure out how to do this creative work and create an income from it. But it almost feels like part of the key for us as people who are running our own businesses is figuring out what we love doing and figuring out how we can continue to do that and figuring out what we don't like doing. Endure that until we. Until we get to the point where we can have somebody else help with it and having a very loose list of, like, what are the things that we can have somebody else come in and help out with. So if you're somebody who doesn't love doing the business side of things, it doesn't mean that you have to just, like, suffer through it. But think about who will. Who could that be that could come in and help with that, whether it's a contracted basis, maybe somebody's in your family you could hire bring in, and you might need to do it for a while, but you can bring somebody else in eventually that would help with that. So at what point did you get to the point where you said, I think I'm making enough from this where I can step back from my job, or did the move happen? And you were like, okay, now's the time to make this happen, because we're moving, and I don't want to get another job. I want to figure out how to.

Make this work again. I got very lucky with timing that they kind of coincided. So I think it was March of 2021. So literally about a year after I kind of really started to focus on this. I wasn't quite replacing my income yet, but we were moving to Oklahoma, which is a lot cheaper than Washington, D.C. totally.

Yeah. It's kind of the two ends of the spectrum.

Well, exactly. And so, like, I was making more than enough money to survive in Oklahoma. Not quite enough to survive in D.C. but, you know, so it's obviously very relative. And so, yeah, the timing just worked out very well that it was just kind of a natural. Like, okay, we're going to do this. And so, yeah, I've been full time since March of 2021.

Okay. Are you still in Oklahoma now?

Yes, we are moving to Spokane, Washington at some point in the next few months. We don't totally know when because that's how it goes.

Yeah. And we talked about this before and you're. You're open with sharing this, which I think is. Is awesome because it's motivational. But at the point now where between your social and your blog, earnings fluctuate between 10 to 15,000. Is that accurate for everything rolled up?

Yeah. So I'd say that first year where I was primarily just doing brand work was right around a hundred thousand for that year. And then once I finally got on to Mediavine in the beginning of last year, so 2022, that obviously, like, helped a lot. And I was able to scale back brand work like a tiny bit just because that's not my only source of income anymore. So now it's like a little above that, but like a nice mix of brands. And then the ad income, which is. I'm so, so grateful for that.

Yeah. Can you talk about that? Why, why you talk about or why you say that you're grateful for it?

I mean, honestly, just the consistency is amazing because that's the one downside to brand work, is that you're not getting a consistent paycheck every month. So I would have, you know, a month where I made $30,000 and then a month where I made a thousand dollars.

Yeah.

You know, and then I'd have a month where I made nothing, but then I'd have another great month where I made 20,000. So it's just that was kind of hard, like the instability of not knowing when your next paycheck is going to be. And so now, like, my mediavide income is pretty consistent. Like, I kind of have a base rate that I, like, I can expect at least like 5k a month. Ish. From Mediavine and then obviously good months or more. But kind of my minimum that I've seen is that level, which that alone is enough to like, live on decently.

Yeah.

So just that consistent monthly income has been a huge stress relief in finally feeling like, really comfortable in doing this full time.

Yeah, it's like a level of predictable that brand work isn't and it's. It's awesome when it's good. And then like you said, if you have a month where you don't have any deals that close or decide not to or just have other stuff going on, whatever it might be, suddenly there's this internal pressure. And I would imagine when you start to get that ad revenue that fluctuates, but not in the same way that brand work, would it relieve some of that pressure where it's like, hey, you know, regardless, you're going to always have this baseline, and then you can build on top of that in a way that feels really good. So in a relatively short amount of time, 2019, you know, today is 2023, but in a couple years, really, you were able to get to that point where you were making a substantial income. What do you think were the variables that existed within that that allowed you to do that? Like, if you had to go back and replicate it again, what things did you do that were helpful?

Well, so as for the mediavine aspect, I didn't really know what I was doing in terms of SEO and stuff. When I first started the blog, I was. I had gorgeous photos, but, like, the blog posts themselves were a mess.

Sure.

And so right after I went full time in 2021, I decided. That's when I kind of decided I needed to focus on the blog itself more. So I did an audit with Casey Markey, who we. We all know and love. And he, you know, was brutally honest like he is, but it was amazing. I mean, so within six months of really starting to implement all of his recommendations, my traffic skyrocketed. And so I think when I met with him, I was making. I had maybe about 15 to 20,000 sessions a month. Six months later, I hit that, like, 50K threshold for Mediavine. And then that was February of 2022. So now in the past year, I've gone from about 50,000 sessions to about 250,000 sessions. So I would say he alone. And that audit was probably one of the best things I've ever done in terms of the SEO blog side of everything. That was just so valuable. So I would pay him all of my money again and again.

Yeah.

What were the changes that you made.

That were most beneficial? Like, when you talked about it being a mess to, like, the before and after of your content or even just how you approached.

I essentially didn't really write blog. Like, I kind of would have, like, one paragraph and like, a couple photos and then, like the recipe card. Like, I just didn't. So really just like writing actual high quality blog posts because I wasn't doing that at all before.

So I mean obviously quality meaning like you're having different sections and being strategic with like the pictures and making them be informational as opposed to just kind of random pictures, things like that.

Yeah. And just you know, adding in FAQs, notes about ingredients, just all of those, like just adding content essentially and then obviously like some like keyword research and all of that like baked into that. But essentially I just like was posting photos and not really understanding that that's not enough to get Google traffic.

Yep. Which is interesting. You know, it's one of the things that was most beneficial for you. I'm guessing it was on Instagram, was the primary platform that you're using before. But there's this reality for us as creators where we're kind of having to speak in different languages depending on the platform that we're on. And I think some of us have speak different languages more natively. And so there's people who are really good at photography and they're going to shine on a platform that prioritizes photography, but they might not love the idea of more like technical oriented writing, which right now is doing really well for search. Or you might be somebody who speaks the language of like engagement around video really well. And you're, you have, you know, you're funny or you're interesting to watch. And so then you might do well on TikTok and in what's interesting for me to observe after, for doing this as long as we have is the different waves of things that work in different areas. And when you are somebody who can ride a certain wave really well, like somebody who loves keyword research and loves writing in a certain way, that's going to prioritize search and build processes, you'll catch the wave of like search that prioritizes that type of content, which is happening right now really well. Or for in your case, photography and working with brands and catching that wave really well. Where do you, for you, when you reflect on your own interests, abilities like what type of wave do you think you like to ride the most as you think about your business and the way that you create content?

I think definitely the photography wave, I just really enjoyed the whole creative process around photography. And so again that does go into both sectors. Like I love having beautiful photos on my blog, but also selling them to brands as well. So. But that overall I think is what I love the most. And so I very much struggled with the video centric everything lately. Because it is just such a different skill set. But, you know, at the end of the day, brands do still need photography. Like, even though in terms of like, sponsored posts and social media, there has definitely been a push from a lot of brands to focus more on video. They still need photography for their websites, they still need photography for, like, in store promotional flyers. They still need photography for product packaging. So if photography is what you love, I wouldn't get too discouraged by video because I definitely went through that a little bit this last year, but kind of came to the realization that, like, just because video is kind of having a moment, it doesn't mean that photography is going away.

Right?

So.

And I think it's important for us as creators to think about what is it that we want to be doing. There's always going to be something that works well that you could potentially do, but if you're going to be miserable in doing it, it doesn't mean that you should do it or just like, generally not enjoy it. I think about that even for writers and have had conversations with friends and people that we're connected with who are like, oh, I don't want to write for SEO and I don't want to write in a way that even, like, from a structural standpoint, I don't want to structure a post for SEO. But the reality is, and you've seen this, like, if you are strategic about how you're structuring a post, what you're writing about, like, that's gonna potentially be significantly beneficial from a search perspective.

But that doesn't mean that there's not.

A platform or a wave that you can't ride. And I think of like the different email subscription services, like substack, like, if you're a writer who really loves to write for the sake of writing and you wanna lean into the art of that, not do keyword research, whatever it might be, that might be a great platform for people. Or in your case, you talk about photography just because video is important and there's a rise in the, in the presence of video and video advertising and all of that doesn't mean that you have to throw everything out and focus on video. Just means you have to find, like, where's the wave? And you have to catch the wave that's best for you as a surfer. If we're going to use that analogy, and it sounds like that's some of the consideration that you've made in deciding how you work and what you work on. Does that feel accurate?

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I've Definitely been dabbling in video because I do think it's important to still try to, like, you know, evolve with things, but it's just not become my focus. And, like, I haven't really tried very much on TikTok because, like, again, it's just a platform that, like, it's just not the kind of content that I'm really good at producing. And I've found that if I put my time into producing the content I enjoy, I feel more fulfilled, I'm happier, I'm still successful, you know, so, like, yeah, I think there can definitely be a balance there between, like, definitely trying new things and, like, not getting totally lost in the sauce, but also, like, focusing on the things that, like, you enjoy the most, because there is a place for every single aspect of the creative process.

And I think Lindsay gives me a hard time because I'm trying to, like, develop this as a concept, but I'm thinking of it as life Soup. And we are. We have the ability not to create, like, a fully custom soup because there's some things that are just set, like, whether it be caring for a parent or caring for kids or you have a regular job, nine to five job that you have to do. But for the most part, everybody listening to this podcast has some ability to kind of create their life soup, the custom ingredients that you want to have that results in a soup that you really love. And one of the components of that life soup is finances. It's money, but it's just one of the things. The other variables are, like, how much do you enjoy the work that you're doing? How much time do you have for family and friends? What is the level of stress that you have? You know, all of these different variables that are in the ingredients in our life soup. And our goal isn't to have the most of one ingredient, the money ingredient. Right. Our goal is to make the most delicious life soup that we can. And it sounds like that's what you're saying a little bit is, I know there's these opportunities, but I also want to be aware of the things that are important to me and the things that I enjoy. Does that feel accurate?

Absolutely. Yes. I love that analogy.

I'll work on it. I'm still developing it a little bit, so I say that. And now I'm going to ask some specific questions about money.

And specifically about.

Working with brands, negotiating with brands. You know, it's something that I think is intimidating for a lot of people, especially early on. How do you know when you're first getting Started what to charge. We've had that conversation before, but I feel like people want to hear what others have to say about getting to a price point that you can feel comfortable with. And that justifies the work that you're doing and the time that you're putting in.

Absolutely. That's one of my favorite things to talk about, because in my experience, most people, especially when they're starting out, are just vastly undercharging. And also in this age of social media, there's. There's so much emphasis placed on the amount of followers you have. And this idea that, like, well, if you only have a thousand followers, you can't charge anything. You have to work for free product. Or if you only have 5,000 followers, you can only charge a couple hundred dollars because it's not worth it otherwise. And I just really hate that line of thinking because at the end of the day, like, you're providing a service and your work, your time should be compensated, compensated as such. And, you know, especially if a brand is reaching out to you or interested in using your photos, like, they clearly see value in your work. And a lot of times, even if you're doing, like, say, sponsored posts on Instagram where you're posting a photo that you know goes out to your followers, even if you only have a few hundred followers or something, nine times out of 10 in your contract, that brand also would like the rights to use that photo on their social media platforms, sometimes on their website, sometimes in their email list. And none of those things have anything to do with your follower count. You know, if your photo is being posted on their page, your followers have nothing to do with that. And so I like to try to encourage people to, like, think about pricing in terms of, like, the value that you're providing and the work that you're doing. And so I have a whole kind of, like, pricing guide blog post on my website that goes into kind of, like how I like to calculate things. And so what I like to tell people is, especially if you're a beginner, to kind of think about the time that you're putting into things and charging based on your time as a way to kind of, like, calculate your rate so you're not going to a brand and saying, my hourly rate is X, but you're kind of like doing your own calculation to figure it out. So I like to say for like, absolute beginners, the minimum you should be charging whatsoever, absolute minimum is like 50 to $100 an hour. And then sitting down and realizing how much time it takes you to actually do everything involved in a brand shoot. You're talking about concepting the recipe, testing the recipe, the cooking, the cleaning, the photographing, the editing, all the post processing stuff, communicating with the brand. Like that can take anywhere from 10 to 15 hours. Right. And so kind of thinking about how much time it's going to take you to do something and kind of coming up with an hourly rate that reflects your skill level and that's kind of your base rate. And a lot of people will say, well, 50 to $100 an hour. That's a ton of money. And it is, but it's also not because I think where a lot of brand new freelancers struggle is they don't understand everything that then has to come out of that hundred dollars an hour. So, you know, if you're starting at a hundred dollars an hour off the top, you know you need to take off 25 to 30% for taxes. So, you know, now we're down to say $75. Then you have expenses and some people might charge extra for groceries or whatever on top of their rate, but you know, that's also something that could be included in that rate. And then you have other expenses like just like web hosting fees, your equipment, all of your stuff that it takes to run your business at the end of the year. How much money is that costing you? I say probably another 10 to 30%, you know, depending on how you run your business. So let's take off another $20. Now we're down to $55 from a hundred. Like we're already at half. And then, you know, there's stuff like health insurance. There's. Especially if you're full time, there's so many things that like go into running a business that it's not directly comparable to someone working at target making $20 an hour.

Right.

And so I think this is what people struggle with is they say $100 an hour sounds like so much money, but you don't realize that it's not actually a hundred dollars an hour that you're taking home.

Yeah. When people are anchored on a rate that would maybe be like a W2 type rate, that there's the businesses absorbing some of the additional overhead and costs and whereas when you're freelance contracting, that's not built in in the same way.

Yeah, well, I was gonna say. And then two, it's not feasible or realistic to be doing 40 hours of work a week every single week for brands.

Right.

So even if you're then making $50 an hour, you're only maybe able to do 20 hours worth of work. So really, if you spread it out, you're at like $22 an hour. So, you know, you're comparing a hundred dollars an hour to $22 an hour and realizing, like, that's kind of the bare minimum that you should be accepting. Otherwise it's really not worth your time after everything that you put into it.

Yeah, it's. So this is kind of a fun little thing. I thought of my friend Nate, who's a photographer, or he's a photographer, but mostly videographer. And one of the things he often talks about is his day rate. And like, what's your day rate? And it was. It's a new term for me as I've started to talk more about him with his work, because I never really thought about that. But it's almost like we as creators or people who are like in the realm of publisher, influencer, creator, there's a spectrum, and the spectrum is like agency. And it sounds like a big word, but essentially it's like freelancer or group of people creating work for other companies to like purely influencer. And it's almost like one way that you could think of it, Let me know if this feels accurate. Is like, as a baseline, you always are just going to charge what it cost to create the thing. Like, you're an agency, you're creating the thing, you're producing it.

Then as you get more following followers.

As you get actual influence, you can add on top of that the impact that it's going to have if you publish that on your follow, you know, to your following or on online. And so you don't want to charge. It's like an equivalent would be if somebody came to you and you had to go hire somebody else to create it and then publish it onto your site, you would never pay somebody more to create it than what you're getting paid to, like, from the brand. And so you can think of yourself almost as that agency, which I love that you drive that point home. The thing that I was going to say that's kind of fun is I was just curious. And so as you're talking, I googled food, photographer, day rate and barley and sage is the second. This is the second result. Yes, SEO that's working and we'll make sure to link to that in the show notes. But I think that's a great point.

So just figure out like, okay, how many.

Essentially at its very. At the core, it's saying, how much are you charging per hour? Let's say A hundred dollars an hour. And then how many hours is it going to take you to do this, using that as your baseline?

The thing that I feel like is.

Worth pointing out is you still have to be good. Like, yeah, that, that I think is.

Where a potential spectrum or a potential.

Gap exists is somebody who says, like, wait, it doesn't feel right that I'm doing this. And maybe that's because you're still in this stage of like being a beginner.

And in those.

I'd be interested in your thoughts on this. In those stages, it feels like maybe you do for a season under price what you would hope to get as an hourly rate in service of working with brands, building a portfolio, like getting experience. Some people would push back against that. I'd be interested to hear where you land in, in that world and, and the idea of like, experience, not for the sake of just saying, like, I'm just going to do this for experience, but to refine your craft and skill in service of as quickly as possible getting to the price point that you want to operate at.

I would push back a little because I like, there are ways that you can obviously like build your portfolio without working with brands. Like if you have a blog, you're building your portfolio by practicing putting everything on your blog yourself.

Yep.

And so like, yes, there's absolutely stuff you learn from working with brands, but I don't think it necessarily benefits you or the brand to be working for really, really low prices. I would say, like local small businesses that don't have much of a budget. I think that's a great way that can be mutually beneficial for someone that's just starting out. Because like, if they're a really local small, you know, one or two person, you know, run show and you're just getting started out, I think that can be a more even exchange. But I've seen, you know, people working for these huge multinational brands.

Right.

Charging a couple hundred dollars and like, I just think that that's bad for the industry because.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It signals to those types of brands that like, they don't actually need to like, pay more.

So I think that's a great point.

Yeah, I think I would say that, like, if you're at kind of that like very, very beginner level, you want to get your feet wet, but you don't feel like you can charge very much yet. I think I would go for more kind of like local small businesses where it's a little bit more of a mutually beneficial thing and not necessarily like you getting Taken advantage of.

That's great. Yep.

And the other thing I would say with the hourly rate that I'm talking about, I want to stress you should never go to a brand and say, my hourly rate is $100 an hour and I'm going to charge you for 10 hours. Because then they're just going to try to be like, well, what if we only want to pay for six hours? What if we only want to pay for five hours? So that's, it's like an internal calculation you can do. And so you say, okay, I think this is going to take 10 hours. My rate's $100 an hour. That's $1,000. So my base rate that I'm going to the brand with is a thousand dollars. And that's what you're telling them, essentially. And so kind of to your point about adding extra stuff on, I like to refer to this kind of initial charge as like your creative fee. So that is your base fee for services that you're doing, that's your creative fee. And then on top of that, you're going to add in licensing and within licensing. That's where I would say, like, any sort of, like, extra charge for influencer type things like doing a sponsored post. If you have a million followers, you can charge a hefty extra fee on top of that, like, base rate for the promotion that you're doing. If the brand wants to put your image on a billboard, that's an extra fee that you should be charging as part of, like that license thing that goes on top of the base fee. And honestly, if you're a brand new beginner and you're just doing, like really small jobs, you don't necessarily need to be getting into the nitty gritty of licensing. Like, as long as, like, you have a pretty solid base creative fee that's paying you for your time that you're spending working on this, I think that that's fine when you're just starting out.

It's in situations, you know, when, when brand. Well, was there an additional thought before I asked this next question?

Oh, I mean, I have so many thoughts. Oh, I never. I forgot what I was gonna say. So go ahead.

Okay, so I can. It's perfect time to ask the next question. One of the things I think people would be thinking is, like, where do these deals come from? Like, are you reaching out to brands and pitching them specifically, or are these mostly inbound at this point for you? People coming in because they see the work that you're doing on Instagram and if that's the case, are you including specific language in certain places that helps to open that door more easily to working with brands?

It's a little of both. At this point, the majority of brands that I end up actually working with tend to seek me out first, which I found. If a brand is seeking you out, they're obviously more willing to pay more money because they came to you, if that makes sense. So, like, I do a decent amount of pitching as well, but. So I don't know. It's kind of both. But what I found is a lot of the brands that I work with work with essentially PR agencies. And so I might start working out with one brand through this PR agency. And then if you build that relationship, then when they have other brands that they represent, you're the first person that they think of. So that's how I've ended up really expanding. A lot of client work is by kind of getting in with one brand, and then that PR agency is like, oh, well, we just took on this new client. We think you'd be a great fit to work with them as well. And you can also pitch directly to PR agencies. You can look up, like, food PR agencies in your city and find a whole list of companies that work with every brand under the sun and pitch those agencies directly and say, hey, I saw that you work with XYZ brands. I do food photography. You know, if you're looking for anyone, you know, you can craft a whole thing. But I found that that's a really good way to kind of get your foot in the door, because even if one brand isn't necessarily looking for people, the other ones might be. So it's kind of a way of like pitching multiple people at once. And I found that to be really effective. And then I've also had a situation where a contact that I worked with at one agency, she went to a different agency and then reached out with me from there to work with other people. So, like, there's definitely a lot to be said about kind of building connections within, like, the PR agency community. And I think that's very underlooked a lot of the time. I think people think about pitching directly to brands themselves and not necessarily the middlemen, but the middle men are the ones that are actually making all the decisions.

Yeah, it's to refer back to my friend who does the video work. That's basically what he's doing. He has, like, three to four PR agencies that he's pretty close with, along with a handful of clients that he works with directly. But that's essentially what he says is like, I know I've crafted these relationships with these people at these agencies, and I have this ongoing relationship with them. So when then, you know, a deal from LinkedIn comes and they want to shoot a video, he's somebody that is on that project. What have you identified as the important factors to consider to maintain a good relationship with those contacts? The PR agencies, for starters, Just doing.

What you say you're gonna do at the time you say you're gonna do it. I mean, it's amazing how like that thing. But yeah. So like literally meeting deadlines.

Yeah, yeah.

Just meeting deadlines is very basic. And honestly, like, I typically try to work like a little bit ahead of like, I prefer to ask for more time than I actually need.

Sure.

And then get things in early versus like feeling rushed. And then kind of along with that, I like to under promise and over deliver. So if I say you're gonna get a minimum of five photos, I like to deliver 10, because most of the time I'm taking 100 photos during a shoot anyway. So, you know, yeah, I like doing little things like that where. And you know, like, it's one of those things, like I'm under no delusion that they don't know what I'm doing. Right. But, like, it still makes them feel good that I'm giving them extra content. Right. And so there's very. There's little things like that if a brand is only paying me for an Instagram post, sometimes I'll throw in some story slides for free. Like, just like little things that don't actually cause more work for me or cost me more money, but can signal that I'm willing to kind of go above and beyond. When again, like, it's not like that much above and beyond, but it's enough that like, I definitely feel like it helps foster like a solid relationship with brands. So. And again, I think those can also just kind of be good negotiating tactics too. Like if they're saying, you know, if you send over a quote for a whole bunch of stuff and they say, well, we can only afford this much, you know, you can throw in one extra thing for free as like a goodwill type thing. So like, that's also just a good kind of like negotiating thing as well that I do a lot. And so, yeah, I mean, honestly, if you're. As long as you're meeting deadlines and you're not an annoying, awful person to work with, I feel like it's not that hard to maintain a Decent relationship. But I've definitely heard horror stories from people that I've worked with about some influencers that just don't ever respond or just like, don't meet deadlines and don't turn stuff in. And, you know, like, that's the quickest way to have people not want to work with you. Because also within those agencies, they're all friends. They all talk. If there's one person they don't like working with, they're going to tell everyone else that they don't want to work with that person in the same way that we communicate. Like, I've had brands that I do not like working with, and I've told all my friends, don't work with this brand. They're awful. So, you know, it goes both ways.

Yeah, it's parallels again. Nate, my friend, he. The other day I stopped in. They were doing a shoot for TaylorMade Golf Company and I was like, oh, what are you doing? He's like, oh, I'm just doing this extra shot. It wasn't something that we said we're going to do, but I thought it would be really cool. And I want to make sure that we go, like, above and beyond for them. But it's like those core relationship things. It's doing what you say you're going to do, doing it on time, you know, over delivering. And it's simple conceptually, but it's also not necessarily easy. It's stuff that you have to be diligent, you have to be methodical in your work. You have to communicate well. But the result of it, like you said, is not only will that person want to work with you potentially, but also would share that with other people. This is a really good person to work with. And it's obvious that you've been that in the relationships that you've had with the different brands and PR agencies you've worked with. So, last question for you. Oh, yeah.

Oh, sorry. Can I just throw in one more thing that I just thought of, one fun thing I love to throw in as, like an extra. And it's not every. It's not going to happen every shoot, but if I'm doing like a poor shot or something where I'm using like a remote trigger or something, and I'm getting a bunch of shots in succession to try to get that cool pour shot, to get one or two photos, sometimes I'll edit that together into a quick stop motion because, again, I'm already taking those photos anyway. I'm efficient enough with, like, editing and that kind of stuff that it takes me five minutes to make it into a stop motion. And that can be like a fun extra thing to throw in again. I'm not going to go out of my way to make some super crazy, complicated stop motion. But like, if it's something natural where I'm already doing a poor shot, or I'm already doing something where I'm going to get those photos in succession, that's just kind of like a fun freebie that clients always love when I have thrown that in.

Yeah, that's great. So, last question. To round things out, you've, I think, done something in a relatively short amount of time that a lot of people are interested in doing. But let's say you were to go back and you were to be at day one again, what are the things, if you, if you wanted to repeat the success that you've had, what are the things that you would do and what are the things you wouldn't do if you were to go back and do it again?

I think I would still really place a very strong emphasis on photography from the beginning. Again, I think that's one of the things that helped me grow very quickly and start getting work very quickly. And I would definitely start focusing on SEO and like the blog side of stuff a lot sooner. In terms of what I wouldn't do, I think I wouldn't put too much stock into social media, which is funny given that that's where I found a lot of success. But I think I obsessed about it in the beginning to a degree that just wasn't actually necessary because by focusing on photography and these other things, it was growing steadily on its own anyway. And that extra level of obsession and trying to do all the right things and trying to do all the Instagram hacks and growth stuff and whatever, none of that actually really made a meaningful difference. And so I think I would focus less on like that kind of stuff and just still really focus on like producing high quality work and putting it out as efficiently as possible. Because I think that that's where you're going to see the biggest results regardless, like the rest of it comes along with that. And so, yeah, I think.

And those skills are also transferable like the art of photography, the art of video, the art of engagement or writing. It can. It's platform agnostic and some of the like tips, tricks and hacks, while helpful if you figure one out that kind of works. They have a. They're like fruit stripes, like the, that gum, is that what it's called? Zebra stripes? Fruit Stripes. It's like really short lifespan. Like, it's great for a little bit and then it goes away. But if you learn how to do the art side of it, which you've done and you talked about that, that endures. So you have a lot of content.

That you've written kind of in this.

Category of, you know, blogging, photography advice. And also you just have a great site and recipes that you share as well. So if people want to follow along either with some of this information that you've talked about or with your site itself, where can they go to find out more?

Everything is Barley and sage. So barleyandsage.com@barley and Sage on all social media. And then yes, on my website I have like a resources tab and I have like my pricing guide, which kind of breaks down more of the numbers that I kind of like, briefly went over here and how, like, I calculate my own rates. And then I also have another post where I dive into, like the numbers on affiliate marketing because it can be awesome, but it can also be a huge waste of time depending on, you know, how you do it, what you're talking about. And so that's a really fun post too with like, also just like a bunch of numbers and breakdowns and then, yeah, just like a couple other fun resources. Cool.

And Sage is your last name. Barley is your.

My dog.

Sweet.

Yes. When I first was, like, starting as a hobby, I was like, well, what would I even name it? You know, when you're in that phase of like, I don't know if it's worth even trying. And then I was like, well, my name is Sage. That's a food word. That's so cool. Like, what can I do? And so, yeah, Barley makes sense.

Very cool. We are all dog people here, so bonus points, bonus points for that. So thanks so much for coming on for sharing your background, your story. I know that it's going to be inspirational for lots of folks, so appreciate it.

Thanks for having me.

Hi.

Hi.

Alexa here from the Food Blogger Pro team. We hope you enjoyed this episode of the podcast. And if you want to go even deeper into learning how to monetize, grow your food, blog your food business. We highly suggest you check out our Food Blogger Pro membership@food bloggerpro.com.com join. It's there that we share all of our course content about monetizing, photography, video and everything that food creators need to know in order to move the needle on their business. We also hold live Q&As every single month, as well as study halls where we get a chance to break into small breakout groups and connect with each other in a really intentional way, talking about specific topics like like creating recipes, keyword research, and more. It is just one of the most positive places on the Internet in my opinion, and we have a ton of testimonials from some of our members. We've helped over 10,000 bloggers do what they want to do better and that just feels so good. So this testimonial from Tammy from Organize Yourself Skinny says this month, after 12 years working full time in higher education, I recently resigned from my position to become a full time professional blogger. This was a decision I did not take lightly, but in the last seven months I made more money blogging than I made in my real job and I decided it was time to take the leap. I strongly believe that because of the knowledge you share within your income reports and also on Food Blogger Pro that I was able to take my blog to a professional level. I have been and continue to be inspired, motivated and educated by by the information you so selflessly and graciously share with all of us. Thanks for that awesome testimonial, Tammy, and we just so appreciate learning about your journeys and being able to just be a small part in helping you get to where you want to go. So if you're interested in becoming a Food Blogger Pro member and getting access to all of the content we currently have for our members, which is a lot, you can go to foodbloggerpro.com join to learn a little bit more and get some signed up there if you're interested. But otherwise we'll see you here next week on the podcast and until then, make it a great week.