416: Preserving Family Recipes with a Food Blog with Sarah and Kaitlin Leung from The Woks of Life

This episode is sponsored by Once Coupled, the development agency behind the brand. Small Plugins Small Plugins is focused on creating thoughtful, small, yet mighty plugin solutions for bloggers, creators, website owners and their first plugin, the Dynamic Connector Block can help you customize promotional content, so think Affiliate Links Email opt ins purchase links based on the content someone is reading. So on this podcast we talk a lot about being intentional with opt ins. We might not want to show an ebook for our best cookie recipes on a salad recipe post as an example, right? With the Dynamic Connector Block plugin, you can create targeted opt ins that match the content your reader is already choosing to consume. Here's how it works and it's great because it's really just two steps. So step one is choose a specific location in each post where you want the connector block to appear. For example, you might want it placed below the recipe card. And step two is create the connector blocks. This happens in another area of WordPress. For instance, you might make a connector block that includes a targeted email signup option for any recipe in the Healthy category for your site. And once you've done that, the magic happens. All the posts in the Healthy recipe category will automatically display the targeted email signup form you designed. Again, it's just two steps you1 decide where you want in the post, the connector block to go, and two Create the block you want to appear in that spot. If you ever want to change that block in the future, you only need to modify it in one place and all your healthy recipes in this example will instantly reflect the new block. Now, as you add more and more targeted opt ins, the block in your posts from step two will automatically update based on that post category. No manual updates. That's the thing that's important here. No manual updates to hundreds of posts needed. It's a super slick plugin and the Small Plugins team has two other plugins in the works. One that can help you highlight categories in each post and another that allows you to feature a comment within your blog post. They're really great and like we said in the beginning, small but mighty plugins that allow you to do some really cool things. And this is where it gets great. You can learn more@smallplugins.com and if you're interested in the Dynamic Connector Block plugin, you can go to foodbloggerpro.comsmall again, that's foodbloggerpro.comsmall to get a 70% discount 70% discount on all current and future small plugins plugins. Thanks again to Once coupled and small plugins for sponsoring this episode.

Hey there. This is Emily and you're listening to the Food Blogger Pro Podcast. Today on the podcast, Bjork is interviewing Sarah and Caitlin Leung from the blog the Walks of Life. Sarah and Caitlin run the blog with their parents, so it's very much a family business. In this episode, Bjork and Sarah and Kaitlyn are chatting about the early days of the Walks of Life, including why. Why they started documenting their family's Chinese recipes and how they grew their site while they were all working full time. They share more about what the division of labor looks like amongst the four family members that run the blog and how they transition to running their blog full time. Sarah and Caitlyn also share a little bit more about their cookbook, the Walks of Life, and being nominated for a James Beard Award for their cookbook. It's a really great episode and it's fun to hear from sisters who run a blog together, and we know you'll enjoy listening to it. So I'm going to let Bjork take it away.

Sarah and Caitlin, welcome to the podcast.

Hey, Bjork, thanks for having us.

Yeah, yeah, it's going to be fun. We've connected before. It's a rare thing for me to do a podcast interview where I speak to somebody in real life first and then we do the zoom conversation. There's been a couple conferences that we've been at. One New York, which is close to home for you, another in New Orleans. And I think this podcast might have been scheduled before that. Does that sound right? Like maybe a month or two ago or maybe right around the same time we scheduled it?

I think it was around the same time.

Yeah.

Yeah. Anyways, very excited to talk to you. One of the things that's happened since we've scheduled the interview is you were nominated for a James Beard Award for your cookbook, which is incredible. Can you tell us about that, that moment when that happened, Sarah, and what that process was like?

Yeah, it was super exciting. It's something that I guess, like all of. So we worked with Clarkson Potter on the book and they kind of helped. They helped us submit our application for the award a while back, and we just kind of forgot about it. So to actually be nominated and to get that news was really exciting. We were like, wow. Like, we actually. That actually, like, did something. Yeah, it worked.

Like, we went through the process and.

It worked, which is really cool. And just like, it's kind of. I think it's somewhat rare for bloggers to kind of show up in that space. So I. I feel like it was really exciting for that reason, too. Just to be acknowledged by sort of more of a, like, traditional food media channels. So. So that was really cool.

Yeah, that's awesome. You do incredible work. The. The site, the brand is called the Walks of Life. Can you talk a little bit, Caitlin, about, like, if we roll the tape back 10 years, when you first got started, what was kind of the premise behind it and what were you thinking? Because as we were going to get into it, it's a family affair, and. And there was some of that, as far as I understand, was a. Was kind of the purpose for starting it. Is that right?

Yes. So we started way back in 2013, which is crazy to say now that we've been doing this for, like, Internet years. Yeah, yeah, seriously. I'm ancient. And, yeah, it really started as a way for us to stay connected, because in 2013, I was in college, Sarah was in college, or just out of college. I can't remember now, but, like, basically we were sort of had flown the nest. And then my parents had actually moved to Beijing, which was, like, a huge shell shock for two gals who were born and raised in New Jersey and, like, didn't live much.

Yeah, right, right. At a stage where it's like, you're kind of at the point where you're. You're kind of like, I want to go out on my own. But, like, I still remember as a college kid being like, or even out of college, like, I'm going to go back and stay at my parents for the weekend.

Like, yeah, totally. Yeah. Like, I picked a college close to home, and so did Sarah on purpose. Like, we wanted to be close to home. And then my parents were like, okay, bye. We're going to Beijing now. I was like, what the heck?

This is, like, as far away from home as you can be.

Yeah. So, you know, my dad was on a work assignment, which was really an amazing opportunity, but, you know, we were in two totally opposite time zones. Me and Sarah didn't really see each other often, and we kind of realized being away from home, that we were super disconnected from all the food that we grew up eating. And we didn't really have any idea how to recreate those flavors. So it was kind of like a twofold purpose where on the one hand, you know, Sarah was closing out her college, her college years, and, like, kind of like staring down the barrel of, like, entering corporate jungle and not sure what to do. And we kind of wanted to stay more connected on A day to day basis. And also my mom and my, my dad and also me and Sarah realized kind of the importance of passing that culinary knowledge down the generations. And we realized that like, if we didn't prioritize it in a purposeful way, that, that that kind of connection would get broken.

Yeah. Can you talk about that? What you mean when you say prioritize it in a purposeful way? What did that mean to you at that point?

Yeah, I think that we had always grown up in and around the kitchen and loving food and me and Sarah actually cooked a lot growing up, but it was always like my parents had the domain of Chinese cooking and they were like masters and commanders of that area. And then we were, we diversified the family meals by like cooking, you know, Italian or quote unquote, American foods, non Chinese foods that were sort of learned from the Food Network and cookbooks and things like that. Yeah, so we kind of wanted to, we realized that we needed to kind of like study Chinese food in the same way that we had studied like how to roast a chicken or like how to make a Caesar salad and things like that.

Yeah, it's one of the things that has been so great for me. So my sister in law immigrated from China. Her parents will occasionally come over and visit and whenever they do, they'll always have us over and they make this huge meal. And it's a reminder to me that we all have this database in our head on all of these incredible things that, you know, we've learned growing up that somebody else taught to us. And you know, there's lots of different examples of that food is such a great one and it's so rich. And it's also such a contrast to the database of foods that I have in my head or that my parents have. And so, yeah, I can imagine as you're telling that story that, you know, it's a little bit of. It sounds like reflecting on the, on the fact that there is this, it's maybe a geeky word to use, but like this database that your parents have and you don't want that to like disappear for you. And so what is the, what does it look like then to intentionally transfer that? And was the blog, in some ways, Sarah, a conduit to allow that to happen, especially while overseas?

Yes, for sure. I mean, I think that, you know, a lot of people, regardless of what your background is, like, have experience of, I guess, trying to learn a recipe that somebody in your family has been making for years and then realizing like, it's actually kind of hard to nail down what that person is doing when they're like, when they've been cooking that dish for years and they're just kind of cooking by feel.

And you're like, wait, I know what it tastes like. And when I, it's. I'm following the direct, like, what's off with this? Yeah.

Yes, exactly. And it's like the person who makes it has maybe never written it down either. They just kind of just do it. So like, to. I mean, the early years of the blog were really just like my sister and I acting as sort of translators or as like we were taking the information that our parents were giving us and trying to like, put structure to it. So like, making sure that they're measuring, like, making sure the instructions were super clear, you know, that we're actually timing each step, like, how many minutes is this cooking for? And just like trying to sort of enforce those like, traditional recipe sort of formats onto like, the, these dishes that, you know, weren't necessarily being documented in the wider, like, media space. Right? Like, there were some cookbooks at the time. There was a blog or two at the time. But for us, like, when we, you know, we found that when we went on the Internet or searching for cookbooks that we, we didn't, we weren't seeing a lot of those recipes that we had grown up with. And so we kind of wanted to do that, right? To record what we knew. And over the years, I think that that process of like watching very closely, like what our parents were doing and like watching sort of participating in that recipe development process, Caitlin and I kind of, we became proficient Chinese cooks ourselves and we're able to kind of develop recipes ourselves. So while the early years were kind of this, like, maybe the first, like year and a half to two years were kind of this process of Caitlin and I like, translating or putting structure to our parents recipes. Like, since then we've kind of transitioned into broadening our like, scope to cover recipes that maybe we only ever ate out at restaurants or that, you know, you know, Chinese takeout style recipes that my parents or my grandparents used to cook at the family restaurant, things like that. And, and we've been able to sort of apply what we learned to develop our own recipes as well. And, and now I think it's been amazing to see all four of us become these like, equal contributors to the blog. And, and each of our voice have each of our voices, like, equally represented, which is pretty cool.

It's awesome. And I want to talk specifically about what that looks like the family dynamic of division of labor and how you all kind of divide that up. But one of the things I want to acknowledge that I think is important and a really cool outcome from it is it's almost like it sounds like you had this internship in Chinese cooking for two years that resulted in you getting an official position. I think that we discredit sometimes or we don't acknowledge that one of the gifts that can come from all of the work that we do, which it's a lot of work, like, anytime, like, right now when you're starting, like, it's a lot of work. And I think it's important for us to, like, find the value from it. And for a lot of people, the value is like, I'm building a business, which is great, but oftentimes what's happening is we get to, like, pick an internship and we get to develop expertise and skills in certain areas, and that's different for everybody. For some people, it's photography, videography, web development. Maybe it's writing, but we get to. Maybe it's recipe development, you know, like. But these incredible skills that we get to develop and craft that even if things don't take off or go in the direction that we want, we're developing these skills that are valuable that we can use in other places or that we can apply in other ways. And so in your case, the great thing was not only did you develop these skills, but also the site itself got to the point where it was sustaining enough to be a business. Can you talk about that moment, Caitlin? Like, when did that happen? Where you're like, wait, this is a thing? And not only can it support maybe one of us, but it can maybe be something that in some ways supports our family. Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I'm totally on board with everything you just said. And I think that was what kept us going in the first, like, two years of the blog, which was really and truly, we always said, like, if anything, this is our personal family recipe box or recipe book. Like, if. If no one looks or just like our friends and family look, like, that's still a really valuable thing. And it was almost kind of nice in a way to get down those, like, family recipes and greatest hits kind of that we grew up eating free from. Well, how do I say this? Purely within our own domain of, like, it was all under our control. And Sarah mentioned earlier that, like, you know, we weren't really seeing recipes that kind of matched up with our experience. And there were Chinese cookbooks and there were, you know, a Couple of Chinese cooking shows and things like that. Like, I don't want to discredit anybody, but all of those were, you know, under the watchful eye of, like, the traditional media gatekeepers, right where they're trying to reach a broad audience and make things simpler and more generalize in a lot of cases. So the fact that we were able to kind of, as you say, like, take on that internship and do things on our own terms from the get go through the blog was incredibly valuable because we always said, like, this is where, you know, these are our standards. We know how it's supposed to taste. If people don't get it, we explain it and kind of do that education piece for, you know, me and Sarah and also for any audiences, you know, readers who were wandering onto the blog at that time, which, you know, as you can imagine, was really few. But yeah, I mean, I would say that those, like, building years was a lot of perseverance in terms of, like, okay, this is our thing. We're gonna learn, like, photography and learn like, how to build our social media presence and just like, you know, recipe post by recipe post, kind of build this thing. And I think we sort of started to get like this slow, slow but sure trickle of people who were kind of like, oh, my gosh, like, I'm so glad I found you. Like, I've never seen anything like this. And, you know, they would talk about, like, these incredibly personal experiences of, you know, rediscovering recipes that their mothers or and grandmothers who had now, you know, long past had cooked for them or, like, cooking for like, foreign exchange students or, you know, rekindling memories from, like, a trip that they took to China like decades ago and like, just rediscovering flavors and memories. And, you know, I think a lot of that also is what kept us going and as we kind of slowly grew and you know, over time, like, you're, you know, intimately aware of, like, all the different little hacks and tactics that come up along the way with food blogging. And we kind of were like, blocking and tackling on those things. And, you know, periodically we would get like a really popular recipe or really popular post that would go like, viral on Pinterest, which is hilarious to talk about anything going viral now because something is constantly going viral. Yeah, like, before it was like lightning in a bottle. Now it's like business as usual. But yeah, I think once we hit a critical mass of those and started to get like, kind of a more regular and devoted following, even though it was small we were like, okay, like, this definitely has legs to stand on. There are people who are really interested and a lot of people like me and Sarah, like our age group millennials, who were starting to realize, like, oh, crap, like, if I don't start, you know, picking up my walk spatula, no.

One'S gonna do it for me.

Yeah, right, right. So it sounds like in those early stages, kind of like we talked about part of the fuel. There's always, you know, we talk about fuel for business. Like, what's keeping it going? Part of the fuel was not only your personal mission that you had to document your family recipes, but then also the positive reinforcement that you got from people who were interacting with that and being like, hey, this, this was really valuable for me because of this. And I think anybody listening who's ever gotten one of those messages knows that for whatever reason, psychologically, when somebody reaches out and says, you made a difference in my life, that's extremely motivating. And eventually got to a point where it was like, okay, personally this means something to us. To others, it means something. But also now it can be like a business. At what point did you make the transition, Sarah? Maybe you can talk about this into like, we're gonna, we're gonna work on this as our full time gig. And are all four of you working on it full time? Or do you view like your mom and dad as contributors or like, what does that, what does that look like? Being that it's a successful family owned business digital business, which is, you know, there's lots of family owned businesses and it's, I think, more rare to have a family owned digital business like this.

Yeah. So we were working on the blog as more of a side project, I would say for about six years. So from 2013 to around mid-2019, every, for everybody, it was like a side hustle. We were doing it on the weekends, we were doing it at night. So my sister and I, we had full time jobs. We were doing it after work at the time. My parents, like, my dad's, like, Beijing gig was kind of his, like, last hurrah and like corporate, like the corporate world. So after that he was kind of not retired. He still was doing like, other things, but, you know, basically we were all doing other things in addition to the blog. And the blog was kind of this plan B that we all sort of had, but that we were dedicating a lot of time to, particularly, I mean, like our old, like, blogging. I don't even know looking back how we did it, honestly, like, it would be like, it would be like a whole weekend and we would, we would blog like 15 recipes in one weekend, all four of us simultaneously cooking, me on the camera, just like running around taking pictures of everything. And now we can. We're lucky if we get three done in one day.

It's interesting how that changes. To go down that rabbit show real quick, like, has that. Is that just like there's more that you're doing? Do you have you built in more margin? Is like the quality higher? Because I feel the same thing with, you know, when I look at the pinch of yum team, you know, in day to day work, it's like there was a point where they're doing like three to four recipes, you know, or Lindsay was doing three to four recipes a week, and now it's like one, maybe two. Why do you think that is?

Yeah, I think. Well, I think that in those earlier days we were definitely. So now we have, we've incorporated video into the workflow, which slows things down significantly. But also like, we figured out that this is like, it was like really stressful. Like those days, those blogging days, like eight recipes a day were really stressful. So we've kind of all figured out like, it's okay to slow down in the name of like family harmony and just keeping everybody in a better mood. You know, like, now that we're all doing this full time, we are all doing it full time. We have the time such that we can kind of like take that time and just like. So right now what we're doing is like, each individual family member gets one dedicated day. So like, everybody supports that person that day in like, like blogging their recipes, which is just so much better because you have people like cleaning, like cleaning up after you and like, everybody's tasting your recipes. Everybody's focused on like one person and like making that person successful. And I just think that that is, that's created a lot more harmony than like our old like simultaneously like simultaneous kitchen chaos thing. But, you know, in the early years it was more so like a necessity because we were doing. Because we were blogging as a side gig. And yeah, to go back to that, I think that. So it was 2019 when I decided to go to move into the blogging full time. And my sister actually just went full time a year ago. So both of us. Yeah, so both of us have it's, I guess for me about four years and for my sister one year. And for me making that decision was really about realizing that there were A lot of things that I wanted to do that I knew would grow the blog that I just didn't have the time to do. So, like, things like, things like redesigning the site to make it more user friendly, to like, really give it like a brand, like a brand, a visual system and, you know, to make it more sort of professional and recognizable and user friendly for people who were like. Our old blog format was very like sort of traditional, like early 2000s blog of like very like chronological, not a ton of it wasn't really designed to be a resource like it is now. And so things like that and just like dedicating more time to creating content, creating content at a faster pace than we used to, I think that really grew the blog. Like, we saw huge growth in that, even in that first year that I went full time and we kind of realized like, wow, okay, like, the more. The more time we dedicate to this, the more it will grow.

What do you think were the things that you did in that year that were most beneficial for growth?

Yeah, I think redesigning the site definitely helped because it wasn't just like making the site user friendly. It was also making it sort of faster, making it more like SEO optimized. Like, we had like a lot of sort of like old. Like our old blog format wasn't as sort of optimized in the back end for SEO. And I think the other thing, another big one, was really dedicating time to the ingredients glossary. So we have this big section of the site that is totally dedicated to different Chinese ingredients, explaining what they are. We have, we created a linking system so that like, in every single recipe card that we have, there's a link out to that ingredient. So that definitely helps people feel like the recipe is accessible, but then also, you know, it's a lot more information and more things that can show up in search. So that definitely helped as well. And I think just creating more content, honestly just being able to.

It's more frequent.

Yeah. Kind of upped our schedule, frequency and consistency. Yeah, yeah.

But it's also worth a look under the hood on like, the ad managing side was that we had a really hilarious mishap in the early days of the blog where my grandma, like, caught wind that if people clicked on ads or like saw ads, that we would make money.

And then I'm like, wait a minute, fraudulent activities?

Yeah, exactly. And so we were hamstrung in the really early days by getting like, booted off of like, Google Adsense. And I think that's why Our building years were so long because we were like, well, it's, you know, like, we're making money, but we're not making a crazy amount of money. And, like, I think it was like the power of advocating for yourself of, like, kind of being like, okay, we have this to our, you know, ad manager, Raptive, like, we have this problem. And they were, you know, great about it. But, like, somebody was like, hey, you know, you guys are missing out on a lot. And, like, it was really important that we were like, kind of sounded the alarm bell finally. Of like, hey, like, is there anything we can do about this? And like that. Well, that was an important moment where we really had to push for. Push for ourselves and kind of these, like.

Yeah.

Where some. Sometimes it was like, well, there's nothing we can do. And it's like, okay, well, you have to find a way. Because that's really what laid the foundation for Sarah to be able to move over full time. And then all of the growth efforts such, like, she was spearheading wasn't kind.

Of like, wasted because you're capturing that through ads. You're monetizing the growth through ads.

Yeah, totally.

Totally.

Yep. What was the workaround that you were able eventually? Because I know there's even. There's a foodbugger Pro member right now who's going through the process of trying to figure out she wasn't accepted to Google AdSense, which you need to be in order to be with the ad network. And.

Yeah.

Was there something specific that was helpful in that case? Like, did you apply with a different ein or like a it?

It honestly was nothing like that. It was just having a relationship with Raptive, who at the time was known as adthrive. They. So they're a Google publishing partner. And, like, they had contacts at Google and we kind of like, pushed them to advocate for us, which they did. And they obviously, they made no promises because Google is so.

It's kind of a black box. Yeah.

Right. But eventually, I mean, they essentially were like, this is the family business. They told the story about our grandma. Like, they're literally like, you know, like. Yeah.

Really misunderstanding.

Huge misunderstanding. And like, you know, they made it work.

Yeah. So what a great story, though. I mean, I know it's easy to look back on now, but I think, like, the heart behind what she was doing is like, her way to support you. Yeah. Which is just so great.

So.

Can you talk?

Sorry. It really was like, the power of people, which I know, like, in this world with, like, a digital business, It's a lot of like, oh, you know, what technological hacks or workarounds can you have? But like we've found a lot of the time, because we are a family, like that, like those conversations are what get us further. And the same thing happened with getting verified on Instagram. Like Instagram system had no recognition of like, oh yeah, let me verify these. This four person entity, like it just didn't work. So I think like, you know, obviously like building those relationships and connections takes time, but like we've been pretty lucky over the years that we've been able to do that.

Yeah, it's, it's such a testament to the fact that behind every website, behind every URL, behind every platform, it's a bunch of people. And like it's people who have moms and dads and kids and cousins and friends and feel happy and feel sad. Like we kind of forget that when we are interacting primarily with a computer, but like there's always that personal element to it. We felt that earlier this year when Pinch of Yum's Instagram account just was like non existent, like it went away. And what we found out was Lindsay's Facebook account had been hacked and that was connected to her Instagram account. And so whatever they were doing, which wasn't okay on Facebook, Facebook through their systems shut it down and then brought the Instagram account down as well. So like you'd search Instagram for picture VM and it was just, it wasn't there. It was like super stressful for two or three days. And our friend Brad, who works at Meta, was able to go through the process of like getting it back up. But it was like because of that relationship. And so to your point, those connections and those relationships are so important and so often those come from. Usually you get. There's this book called the Go Giver, but I love that idea of like the best way to have those connections is to first like give or to, to help. And so often, you know, nothing will come from that. But every once in a while there might be a situation where you say, actually, can you help me out with this? So I think your point, Caitlin, about relationships being a key component to any of that is, is super important and the importance of like being the captain of your own ship and pushing forward and saying like, yeah, like okay, this person said you can't do anything about it. What about this person? And let's go here and let's look at this angle and what if we. And just. It's interesting how often I see that as a recurring thing with the interviews we do where people don't take no as the final answer, but just in. Obviously there's a lot of context around where, you know, sometimes you're asking somebody if they would help you with the thing, they're like, no. It's like, okay, then they're just not available. But like, when it comes to a problem, if somebody's like, no, that's. There's no solution for it. It's like, well, maybe there is. Let's look at it from a different angle. So I think, yeah, I think that's important as well. When you talked about a four person entity, this is getting into like the weeds on the business mechanics. But I'm so fascinated by this world. And I was just having a conversation with a friend who's thinking about doing a business deal. How do you think about ownership and then salaries without. You don't have to share numbers. But you know, anybody who's moving into a partnership, it wouldn't have to be family. But anybody who's moving into a partnership, you know, there's like, you can own a business and that's like your percentage ownership of a thing, but then maybe you don't work within the business so you don't get paid. And you can be the other way around too. You don't have any ownership, but you do get a salary. And my guess is those would be hard conversations as a family to navigate or maybe not.

But no, no, they're tricky.

Yeah, I mean, honestly, like, honestly, this is why. So. Yeah, so I'll first start talking a little bit about like division of labor and amongst the four of us. So my dad is our basically now our cfo. So he handles all of the accounting and the bookkeeping and he sets the salaries so that for us as like the kids like really works. Because then, you know, it's just like we know that our parents are going to treat us fairly and like, that's.

Yeah.

And we're just. That's it. And no.

Does he set that based on like industry standard, like if you are a photographer in New York or not that specific. It's just like, hey, generally speaking here.

I wouldn't say it's. Yeah. I wouldn't say it's that specific.

It's not that specific, but it is like, because me and Sarah did have corporate jobs in New York that is sort of a basic benchmark where my. It was a hilarious conversation. My dad was like, well, we'll match your salary once you're.

It's like, it's like a job offer and then you're negotiating.

Yeah.

I'm like, where's my bonus?

Yeah.

But, yeah, I mean, it is kind.

Of like a funny thing. Like, I think my dad is managing it, but we all talk about it as a family when you say.

Yeah, yeah. And I think so. There is. There is a salary structure plus an ownership percentage. So after the salaries are paid, we have, like, the remainder that gets distributed based on ownership. So if the blog does really well in a certain. In a given year, like, it kind of basically all evens out. Yeah. And. And. And then we have like. Yeah, it's really. I would say that everybody sort of their roles play to their strengths. And for my dad, like, he. In the early years, he was an engineer and product manager in, like, software prior to the blog. So he would actually take on a lot more of, like, the technical aspects of the blog in those early years. Like, things like when we were managing our own ad waterfall. At one point he was doing that. He was helping with, like, the hosting and sort of like, making sure that the site stayed like. Or if the site was down, like, fixing that. Things like that. Which I would say now, like, I guess I'm managing a little bit more. My mom has always been more of a creative person, so she is our food stylist. She manages our Pinterest account. And I would say that in, like, the food realm, she, like, brings that, like, aspect of, like, tradition and, like, research. She's the only one in our family that's, like, fluent in Chinese and can read Chinese. So she's, like, always sort of looking for new ideas. And then my sister and I are. So we both edit. I'm the photographer. My sister's the videographer. And then we each sort of, like, edit in our own space. So I handle everything photo and she handles everything video. And then my sister also manages the social media accounts. Just like, I think on, like, in terms of the blog too, we have, like, in terms of the recipes, like, we each have our own kind of strengths and, like, our areas of expertise, like, behind the scenes too, we kind of. We also have that. And I think it also helps that my sister and I, like, in our previous jobs, they actually applied pretty well to extreme laws.

Yeah.

Can you talk about that?

And I think that's an important point, too. I think sometimes people come into this world thinking, like, oh, I don't have any experience with it. But even for, like, Lindsay, she was a teacher. And like, that crosses over really well into certain areas. You Know, for me, I was at a nonprofit, and one of the things I would go and do is, like, speak at schools, and it's like, how does that translate? It's like, here I am doing a podcast. Like, there's all of those ways that we can translate those over just a few points. I'd be interested for each of you. What were you doing and how did that translate?

Yeah, so I was a brand strategy consultant, which sometimes confuses people. I wasn't working at an ad agency, and I wasn't, like, a strict, like, management consultant. It was kind of like looking at brands at the corporate strategic level to say, like, oh, like, what can we do to evolve the brand using a variety of levers from, like, messaging to, like, customer, you know, segmentation strategies, and also, like, visual system, of course, and kind of bringing that all together through, like, one client team. So I did a lot of client work, and it was, I guess, if I bubble up some things, like, there was an aspect of it where it was just like, the pure brand strategy of it all, which is kind of like thinking from every angle, like, how do we present a brand or, like, an entity in a way that's, like, consistent and compelling and cohesive? And then there was also kind of interesting. Snuck up on me. But that job definitely made me an extrovert, because when I started, I was extremely quiet. I kind of had. I was pretty crappy at public speaking. I was like, okay at it.

Sure.

And after, you know, seven years of being a consultant, being in these client meetings where you have to make small talk, you have to present in, you know, a super sharp way. Like, that was super important to, like, getting on camera, like, being a public personality or, like, how do you know? Like, an influencer of sorts of. So that was super important. And then I think the other thing was, like, it did teach me how to be more of a team player and a consensus builder, which is a big. In our family because sometimes a huge struggle to get to consensus. And, yeah, that was just a really useful job in kind of finding different ways to get people to align. Like, that's like the joke in consulting. It's like, we're aligned. Like, that's what you're always wanting to reach.

Alignment.

Yeah, exactly.

And when you have four people who are a part of decision making, like, that becomes increasingly complex. What about for you, Sarah? What was it? Your kind of before and role and how did that translate over?

Yeah, so I second the extrovert thing, I think. I mean, I'm not as extroverted as my sister. But I. So my first job was working for a nonprofit in China. So this was. I actually ended up moving to Beijing after I graduated. Lived there and obviously just living in China was a huge. A hugely transformative experience and really great for the blog. Like, I got to eat so many different regional Chinese foods that I never tried before. And just like, it expanded my mind about the cuisine in general, but also like, around language, just like having to really put Chinese into practice. And you know, we. We do some translation on the blog and we do some like, like in the writing of our book. Like, there was quite a bit of Chinese in the book that needed, like editing and translating. So we had, we had like, we actually had a cousin help with that a little bit. But like, like, we. I was able to do the first draft of everything, which was really valuable. And then my. The job that I was at the longest was actually. It was digital. Literally digital marketing and demand generation for a startup. Yeah. So working in email marketing and like making landing pages, lead generation, like all that kind of stuff, like building an email list, just marketing a product. I think that all of that really, like, in my day to day at work, I would be like, oh, I could definitely use this for the blog, or we should definitely do something like this for the blog. And also just like the technologies that we were using at work, I would apply to the blog as well. Like, you know, I. We did a lot of customer segmentation and targeting on our website at that job that I was at. And I was like, oh, we could totally like, use oftenmonster to like, have people segment users and have them sign up on different pages of the site, which we're about to implement soon on the walks of life. So things like that were really helpful.

And.

And then also like that job put me, because it was a startup, it put me in a lot of sort of not uncomfortable situations, but like, things where it's like, I don't know if I know how to do that, but like, I have to figure out how to do that. Yeah. So things like, oh, we want to create like a customer video, like a customer marketing, like, video series. Like, figure out how to use a camera, like, buy the microphones, buy the, you know, get people in here to interview. Like, you got to figure out how to edit video. So like, that kind of stuff and just like, basically building those skills in a way that just makes you feel like whatever it is, whatever, like curveball, like the blog throws you of like, oh, okay, this is a new thing. You have to learn. It just makes you feel like you can do it and that you're capable of doing. You can figure it out. Or if there isn't, if it's not your thing, like, there are freelance resources out there that you can. That you can leverage, which was something that I did often at work.

So, yeah, that's great.

Couldn't have been more perfect, really.

I love that.

And.

Oh, go ahead.

Yeah, it's worth mentioning my parents. So me and Sarah Obby, like, for anybody listening, it's like, oh, well, easy for you to say. You guys are in like, completely appropriate fields to go into blogging. But, like, my parents were not traditional creatives, like, with language and like, you know, visual media in the sense that me and my sister are like. But my dad definitely had a passion for cooking from his sort of upbringing. His parents owned a Chinese restaurant, so he always had that through line, even though he was like a, you know, tech engineer for these, like, you know, for Bellcore and Nokia and Microsoft, things like that. And then my mom actually worked in fashion, but in a very unglamorous part of the supply chain, which was like, sourcing materials and like, working from start to finish to create buttons and zippers and like, getting it to, like, the final stages. So she has, like, an incredible eye for, like, quality control and detail, which, like, as you can imagine, is super applicable on the blog. So, yeah, we all four of us kind of come together to form this, like, funny, super entity.

Yeah, that's awesome. And I think a great takeaway for anybody listening with that is, you know, I think a lot of people think about how can I be doing this full time? How can I get to, you know, this point where I'm just doing my own business, my own work? And I think one of the steps along the way isn't necessarily like jumping off and doing that, but taking a step into doing something that's closer to that. And I think your story, Sarah, of like, digital marketing is a great example of that. It's a stepping stone where you're doing things that are helpful for the company, but also you're learning things that are immediately applicable to the day to day. And there's lots of different versions of that. And so for anybody who's thinking of eventually on their career path, wanting to work on their own or build their own thing, a great transition to do that is a more aligned, to use that buzzword for our interview job that has some of the overlap of what you'd eventually want to be doing. One of the last Things that I want to talk about is just the unique demographics of your site. Knowing that like you talked about there might be a family in the US who has an exchange student, but it also might be somebody who grew up, you know, having these wonderful recipes and no longer knows how to make them and wants to learn that. Can you talk about, insofar as you're comfortable, the traffic that your site currently gets and then what the makeup of that looks like. Like, is it more international than maybe a site like Pinch of Yum would be and what those percentages would be?

Yes. So I would say that we are more international than your average blog or average US based blog. So I think our right now we're at like 59% US traffic and like 41% international. Most of that coming from Commonwealth countries. So UK, Australia, New Zealand, Canada. And that definitely, I mean it's, it's, it's an advantage and it's a disadvantage, right, because it's an advantage because you get, you get like all of these people from around the world who are like contributing their experience to your blog. And you know, knowing that somebody randomly in Singapore is reading is like pretty cool. But you know, of course that does cut into your RPM a little bit. Your RPMs are going to be a bit lower. But you know, I think that that's just. It is kind of the name of the game with. We've talked to other niche blogs that are similarly sort of situated in terms of international traffic. And it's kind of just it is what it is kind of thing. But in terms of demographics, I would say that we actually have a higher than average male audience for a food blog. I think that we're about 40% male readers, which is pretty high. I think usually a food blog it's like more like 80, 20 women to men. But I think that, you know, when it comes to perhaps because it's, it's more niche like because these recipes are like speak to, I don't know, I guess like everybody loves Chinese food. So I think that it speaks to like a really broad audience that way. And yeah, I guess geographically I would say it's definitely spread out. I mean obviously like any other blog we see concentrations of readers in like larger US cities and, or just larger cities in general. But it's been really surprising to see the diversity in our readership. And I think that the reason for that is, you know, Chinese food. Just like the pathways of Chinese food are so spread out across the world and you know, through immigration and you know, you just There's a Chinese restaurant and in like almost every small town in the US and.

Yeah, and even elsewhere, like I was just in Ireland on vacation and I was doing like a mental log of Chinese restaurants that I saw and there were some small towns that had Chinese restaurants in Ireland. But anyway, go, go ahead.

Yeah, yeah. And, and I think that what, what we've tried to do with the blog is, is to be really inclusive in the types of recipes that we represent. So like, you know, we, we represent like this sort of mom's cooking space or like the home cooking as well as like the like Americanized Chinese takeout and like, and the sort of regional cuisines that you might only see in China at this point point. So I think that because we've like, because all of those things sort of inform our family's Chinese American experience and so to sort of have those diverse entry points into like Chinese food, I think it brings in a really diverse audience. And then once they're there, the hope is like, you know, once you're on our site, if you came in for like, you know, beef and broccoli or like a lo mein recipe, like you would come away with another recipe that you may not have heard of or like something that expands your mind about what Chinese cooking is.

Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, it's interesting when you think of kind of advertising and how that changes based on where people are coming from. And I had a conversation with my sister in law's cousin and she's studying at nyu, focused on social media. And one of the things she was kind of pondering was starting an agency around helping US companieship yam. Her initial thought was like, could this be a value for pinch of yam on other platforms like WeChat? And my initial thought was it was like there's this huge market that you could connect with. Obviously we wouldn't have expertise in what that would look like. But also there's complexity from a business perspective around not only sponsor content and what does that look like, but also advertising is just so different. Like, you know, it's not like a. Right one of the ad networks is going to be able to like plug and play in a way that they would if it's, you know, somebody from Minnesota versus Beijing. So have you ever thought about building a presence or do you have a presence on any of the Chinese social media apps like WeChat?

Yeah, so we did experiment a little bit with that a few years ago. We actually had a couple people in China helping us translate recipes and posting Them on Chinese social, like on WeChat and a website called Dogo, which is, it's like a recipe. It's like the Chinese version of allrecipes.com.

Sure.

And it's, it was tough. It's, it's really tough because, you know, the Chinese market in particular is, it's so huge. And if you could just capture a small piece of it like that would, you know, that would be very significant, obviously. But because it's so huge, there's a lot of competition out there. And also, like, it requires, like, a kind of a different mindset around the types of recipes that you're promoting. Right. Like, we found, at least from our translators in China, like, they were kind of saying, like, actually, your Western recipes are probably going to be more interesting to people because they're different and they're.

You know, some, like, novelty as opposed to, like, oh, I know, I already know how to make that, or.

Right, right. So I think, you know, it was just, it kind of like lost steam for us a little bit because it was so. It just required like a totally, like, like such a pivot in terms of, like, what we were focusing on.

Yeah.

But, you know, I think we, we, we posted something like 100 recipes on that platform, and we did gain some traction on it, and it would be really interesting to see. But also, yeah, just like, the politics of, like, sort of like, okay, you need a Chinese bank account to get paid. Like, how would you get the money out of China eventually? Like, that, that all is like, a big challenge. And question marks that we never really answered. So, so that's something to think about if you're, if you're thinking about going into, into a foreign market, like, tax implications also. So it just, like, kind of, it brings in a lot of complexity.

Taxes in the US Are complicated enough, so, like, yeah, bringing in, like, another country is like, no, thank you. We're coming to the end here. We're wrapping up. Obviously, we could talk for hours about all the things that you guys have learned and the things that you're doing, what's working, what's not, and just you guys have such an inspiring story. Last question for each of you. For those who are listening, what would you say your advice would be? Anytime we get to somebody who's been doing something for a decade, like, you obviously have opinions and experience where you'll be able to speak into somebody who hasn't been doing it as long or people who have realistically. But doing this as long as you have having the experience that you have. What would be the one piece of advice that you'd give people who maybe want to follow a similar path? And Caitlin, I'll start with you.

It's a good question. I feel like maybe it's kind of two answers. We'll see how it goes. But like, I think the thing that kept us going for so long is and like, got us the perseverance that we needed to build the blog was that having that, like, bigger sense of purpose that we shared with our whole family. So, like, for so many years, like, when, you know, we would argue or like, me and Sarah feel like we were being stretched in at our jobs and we always had these goals and it was like, are we going to meet them? Like, how are we going to meet them? I always call the blog the train that won't Stop running because after that two year mark, it really did get to a point where it was like, nobody wants to stop. It's stressful, but nobody wants to stop. We all feel like we have this bigger responsibility now because we've created this audience and we filled this need. So that really helped me at least get through some of those, like, tougher times where I was like, you know, super busy at work and also like editing posts at night and things like that. But, you know, at the same time, I think that now that we've been on like a 10 year timeline, like, it starts to be that you kind of need sort of like a catalyst to like, rejigger that sense of purpose. And I think like, a lot of what I've been thinking about lately is like, ways that I can feed my creativity, like, generally speaking, because I just, you know, I think sometimes you get a little burnt out or, you know, especially in this food world, you become known for something or something succeeds and then you're like, okay, let me just repeat it or replicate it or try to build on it. And I think finding ways to, you know, do that but also branch out and refill your creative cup is like, yeah, definitely, like a huge top of mind thing for me, like, right now.

Like, I haven't figured it out yet, by the way.

Yeah, I think about it a lot these days. So, yeah, you know, things like video, it's like, okay, I know I have to do videos. We know we want to do videos and like, build our YouTube presence. But, like, how can I make it creatively rewarding for myself and not just like, mimic what other people are doing who are quote unquote successful? So I think finding that unique formula for yourself of like, what's. What's the purpose that drives you? And also what's like, path there? The medium or the method that's going to make you feel like your creative juices are flowing is kind of like the million dollar question.

Yeah, it's totally relatable. And I've been trying to think of an analog and the one that I've been using. You can let me know if this resonates. But, like, is life Life soup. And the idea being that, like, we have all of these ingredients that we can put into our life soup and that will taste a certain way and that changes over time. Like, our taste changes as different variables come into it. Like you, like, in our world, it's like we have two kids now and what does that look like and how does that change things? And the ingredients are work, it's family, it's friends, it's creativity. And. And I think some of the ingredients, like work and creativity. The thing that tasted really good five years ago now doesn't taste as good.

Yeah.

And you need to replace that ingredient in order to get your life soup right and.

Right.

And that problem solving process, like, I can really relate to that. Like, what does that look like to adjust it? And it's difficult when there's a thing that's working. Like in your case, it's like, okay, you know, you can continue with on this formula and deliver this and it works. Like, you put this in and you get this out. But if it doesn't taste right, like, how do you continue with that successful thing while also not serving it unnecessarily? So totally relate to that for sure. And kind of the takeaway that I hear you saying is like, don't be afraid to reinvent yourself along the way in service of continual passion and investment and like, satisfaction in the work that you're doing. Does that feel accurate?

Totally. And I think this uncomfortable part is not rushing to it because I have a desire to rush to it, but I also don't really know what I'm rushing towards.

Sure. Yeah.

Like, I'm just like, I really want to be more creative now, but like, like, I don't exactly know what that's gonna look like. And I think, like, my mom gave me some advice where she was like, don't like, work yourself up over, like, all the things that you have to do or want to do. Like when you wake up in the morning, just like, really well. Do like, at least one thing.

Yeah.

And then kind of let the rest, like, unfold as it does. And I Think that's been valuable. So, like, as I'm on this kind of like. Like, I'm sort of in, like, this observant stage where I'm like, okay, like, what's, you know, what's working, what's not? So I think, like, the slow and steady, you know, observational kind of approach of, like, okay, what is feeding me creatively has been an ongoing journey.

Yeah. So I think it reminds me of this. Yeah. Well, sorry I interrupted. Go ahead.

No, no, no, no, no.

Okay.

Yeah.

This book that I read a while back called designing your life, and there's this activity in there where it talks about empty to full and looking at each one of the activities that you go through during the day. And, like, does this fill me up or does it empty me? And I think they also just released one called designing your work life. And it's like, oh, this very much is, like, for people like us and people who listen to this podcast where, you know, we. We have the ability to change and adjust and shift, but part of it is just even knowing what we're changing and adjusting and shifting towards.

Right.

And some of those. The key word that you said that I think is so great is observant. Like, some of that observing, you know, empty to full helps inform totally, you know, those tweaks and adjustments you make along the way. Yeah, I love that. And I think really relatable for people. Were listening and relatable for myself as well. How about you, Sarah? If you look at kind of the past decade, what would the advice be for anybody listening?

Yeah, I think. I think my advice kind of echoes Caitlin's, but in a slightly different way. So I think that finding something that is actually that will. That you think can and that you feel and that you like, that you're so passionate about, that you feel like this could drive you for the next 10 years, I think is important. Like, I think that people are. I mean, chances are, if you are listening to this podcast, you're interested in food or food blogging. But I think that, you know, I've heard from people who are like, oh, yeah, I thought about starting a food blog, and, like, people will reach out to us fairly often for advice on, like, oh, I'm thinking of starting a food blog. Like, could we have a chat or something? And I always say, yes. And what I tell them is like. Or the question I ask is, like, do you really love cooking? Like, how much do you really, like, enjoy it? Like, because when it becomes a job or when it becomes work, like, it can be hard sometimes if you don't necessarily, like, really love it, it could be hard to stick with it. And so for me, like, I say, like, maybe there's something else out there. Maybe it's not food. Like, you can create a website or a blog that talks about anything really, as long as it's useful. As long as it's useful to somebody. And so, like, for me, I think it's like, find that passion that you feel like you can, like, renew over and over again and, and feel like, energized by. For a long period of time that will. Because, like, my number one piece of advice to everybody is consistency and, and basically just keeping at it like that. The majority of people, like, we were at this conference in New Orleans and we were both there and we met all these other bloggers and it was so great to be able to talk to them about their experience. And one of the bloggers there said something that I. That really stuck with me, which was like, everybody here is here because they just kept going. You know, like, if you just kind of keep going and you keep at it, it's that, you know, it's the people who didn't keep going that, you know, maybe their blog fizzle fizzled and didn't, you know, didn't eventually grow into something. So figure out what that thing is that's going to really make you keep at it. And my other thing is don't feel like you have to do every single thing that it seems like everybody is doing, especially for somebody who's first starting out. Like, I think that you can feel a lot of pressure to be on video, to be on TikTok, to be on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and like all of these different Pinterests, and to also run a.com and, you know, you know, on that. On that blog to like, have all of these different resources all over your blog. Like, I think that it can be really overwhelming for somebody who's first starting and, you know, perhaps comforting thought is like, the idea that, like, the walks of life started with just recipes. It was just recipes we weren't doing. I mean, over time we built those other, those other channels and sometimes, like, we just don't. Like with TikTok, for example, we've kind of determined, like, TikTok is not our platform. We don't need to be on TikTok. It's okay. So I think that there's this pressure to, like, be everywhere. And, you know, I know that in a lot of these, like, in industry speak, there's a lot of like. Oh, like multi channel omnichannel or like, you know, whatever. And for. Especially if you're like one person working on this now or a couple people, it could just be a lot. And it can be very difficult for you to focus on like actually just creating the content when there's all this other stuff that's, you know, competing for your attention. So I would say just focus on the thing, focus on the content and focus on, you know, like my sister just said, the medium or like the method that energizes you the most. And all that other stuff can kind of come later or maybe not. Like, maybe it's not even necessary.

So that's great. And I think one of the things that's really common is for people to feel like they have to do it all and to get to have permission to not do it all and to do a few things that you really love really well, I think is a really freeing thing. So love that. This is awesome. So I'm guessing people would want to follow along with what you're up to. You know, whether it's the recipes, cookbook, do you have individual accounts, or is it all under the walks of life?

It's all under the walks of life. Yeah. My Instagram account is like, empty. I don't, I don't.

Yeah, I'm personally anonymous. Except.

Okay, great.

200 people maybe.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, great. So people can follow along with walks of life. We'll link to that in the show notes. Really great to talk to you both. Caitlin and Sarah, thanks so much for coming on.

Thanks so much. Thanks for having us.

Hey there, Alexa here. Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Food Blogger Pro podcast. We hope you enjoyed it and we have quite a July to look forward to here at Food Blogger Pro. If you're unaware, there is a Food Blogger Pro membership where we teach our members how to start, grow and monetize their own food blogs through courses, forum discussions and more. More. And this month we have a good one. We have so much awesome content planned and we're just going to go through it right now. So first, tomorrow, that is the 6th of July, we're going to actually have a coaching call and that's going to be with Jen from Greedy Girl Gourmet. And she's going to be talking about starting a podcast and figuring out how you can be just the best at what you're doing. It's such a good conversation. And that will be available tomorrow, like I said. So next we have a keyword Research Q and A with the one, the only, Aleka from Keywords With Aleka. She is our keyword research expert here at Food Blogger Pro, and she will be joining us on the 13th to answer every keyword research questions that you have. It's going to be such a good one. We are so excited. And you can attend if you're a member on July 13th. Last but not least, we actually have a keyword research course coming on the 20th, and in that course, it's going to be a little bit different from our other courses, and that's because we're actually going to show you how different people do keyword research. So Aleka is recording a lesson for us. The Pinch of YM team recorded a lesson for us, and we at Foodblogger Pro are gonna record a lesson and that's just all gonna kind of show you the different approaches that you can take when doing keyword research. We are so excited about this course. Big props out to Emily for kind of being the. The brainchild behind this. And she's gonna be a really good one. And I know this is one of those topics that everybody is really concerned about right now. So we're hoping that this course makes the keyword research process a little bit easier and enjoyable for you. So that is what we're planning here in July. It's going to be a good one. And if you're not already a member, you can join in on the fun@foodbloggerpro.com join. You can read a little bit more about the membership and get signed up right there. But that does it for us this week. We'll see you next time. And until then, make it a great week.

Sam.