461: Building a Career as a Photographer and Storytelling Through Visuals with Alanna O'Neil

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Hey there, this is Emily from the Food Blogger Pro team and you are listening to the Food Blogger Pro Podcast. This week on the podcast, Bjork is chatting with Alana o'. Neill. Alana is a photographer who also does some food photography and has actually written two beautiful cookbooks and she's on the podcast this week to chat more about her career in food photography, how she transitioned from working in fashion to photography, how she moved to Hawaii, and how she's built her career as a photographer. She also shares more about how you can develop your skills as a photographer and build your portfolio and and has a really beautiful way of describing the importance of storytelling through your visuals. I really enjoyed editing this interview. She has a really calming energy about her and just a really thoughtful way of describing a lot of things that will really make you think about how you approach your career and how you approach your photography. It's an awesome interview, so I'll let Bjork take it away.

Alana, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here and chat.

Yeah, we're going to Talk about something. This is actually one of my first loves was photography. So when I was like, in seventh grade, I would bike to the library in our hometown. It was like two blocks away, and I would check out books on photography. Like, I just was super fascinated by photography. I got a DSLR camera or a SLR camera for my birthday. And actually, so my wife has a food website called Pinch of Yum. Like, the first three posts we did, like, I was the one taking the pictures. And then very quickly we were like, maybe, maybe Lindsay should just figure out how to do the photography for it. But I love photography and it's one of the most important parts of what we do in the world of publishing, especially for people who are publishing food and recipe content.

But also just if you're going to.

Be a creator in general, one of the most important mediums is photography. There's photography, there's video, and generally speaking, there's also this idea of like, storytelling through visuals, which we're going to talk about today. But before we do that, I want to hear about your journey into photography. What did it look like for you to kind of build this into what is now a career? How did that start? And were you always pursuing photography kind of as the end goal?

Sure. It's always kind of been in my background and then slowly come to the forefront. So my mother, she just was a hobbyist, so we had a dark room in our horse barn. So I'm from Vermont, so we had a horse barn and lived on a farm. So our dark awesome things like, yeah, kid.

And to grow up with a horse barn and a dark room just feels very magical.

Yeah, it was very idyllic. And so in the tack room where we kept all the horses, things like, we. Then she transformed it into a dark room. So I was just kind of only like always at her hips, just like watching her, you know, develop film and stuff. And then I always just kind of love. I was like, very shy and introverted person, but I was always very perceptive and like, I just was always, like, looking and just taking in information. So I think I kind of developed an eye early on. And then I've always just love taking photos, whether it's landscape, nature, animals. And then I actually then went into fashion design in New York City, where I worked for three years for Calvin Klein. And I was in that time frame where I realized, like, this hustle just, it wasn't for me. It was creatively enjoyable because my. The love for photography really came through is because I was choosing the images that would be used for the. The collections that would be on the Runway. So, you know, I would kind of be doing the mood board and sourcing of the creative design for it. So that was really fun. But I just didn't match up with this lifestyle that I grew up with. Like, I love being outside in. In nature and just being in this, like, concrete jungle on Times Square every day where you see the sunlight, maybe 10 minutes a day, just didn't work out. So I slowly then transitioned to focusing more on just on me and what brought me fulfillment. And I ended up in Hawaii, where I really took photography seriously as a. I really want to do this, you know, as a career. So it was a complete pivot, but it's kind of always been in the background. And now I really felt like I've come into my own following that intuition that was always there.

Like, you knew that there's this pull. It feels like there's a lot that we could look at in the. In the space where you talk about leaving New York, coming to Hawaii, and building a career around photography. Like, those are some pretty significant changes. And I think anybody listening to this, you know, maybe it's not a move to Hawaii, but there is an interest in evolving and becoming more towards, you know, following your intuition to get to a place where you feel like you are more of who you really are. Like, some of us, I feel like we know who we are, we want to pursue that, but we maybe feel kind of stuck. How did you navigate that? Like, you kind of mentioned it. Quickly moving to why that's a really big deal once you get there. You know, you kind of want to do photography, but, like, how do you actually take those steps into doing it? Can you talk more about that?

Yeah. So I. It was kind of like a soft jump, like a soft leap of faith, because I was like, okay, what do I have this degree in? Fashion design. And it's like, I have to use it somehow. So. But I want this healthy lifestyle, like, a balance of being in nature. So I found a company that did activewear design in Maui, and they were like, okay, well, you can come and, you know, do the job, and you can work, move to Maui, and you've got the job. So it was a soft jump from taking what I. My skill set and then moving to Hawaii. So it wasn't just like, I went cold turkey. But then I, you know, with. I was in that job for several years, and I just kind of reached a ceiling of, like, this isn't really calling me. It's not fulfilling me anymore. So then I. Then I really took that leap of, okay, this is. I know what I'm good at, and I know that my skill set can be. I'm much more than where I'm at right now, if that makes sense. And it takes so much self awareness. Awareness.

What does that look like when you say self awareness? Is that, you know, intentional, structured time that you have to reflect, or is it, yeah, just naturally who you are? Like, what does for anybody else who's looking to be more aware of themselves, what would your advice be?

I think for creative people in general, and especially for photography, we're so sensitive to our environments, and the more we can actually take space and take some time away to just, like, think and reflect, that's when our answers, I find, really come to the surface. So for me, I'm. I'm a runner. I run every day early in the morning, and that's my time of like, you know, an hour just thinking. And so it was really like a quiet time for me to just kind of reflect. And I knew there was just something in my bones. I was like, this is not aligned for you anymore. And it was almost like you had to hit a point where you. There's like, you can't avoid it anymore. And that was me watching my colleagues in New York City eat lunch, you know, hunched over the computer, sleeping at work, shaving a fur skin or a handbag, $3,000 handbag that no one on this planet needs any more of. And you're like, so you just, like, have those moments and it's just like, sometimes they're subtle, sometimes they're really loud and in your face. And I think the more we can, like, stay tuned to those little quiet moments of. Because I feel like the answers we already have within us, it's just a.

Matter of getting quiet and hearing what.

Those are and hearing what those are.

And for everybody, that's going to be different. For you, it's running. Like, yeah, but it almost to look back and say, like, for anybody listening to have this, like, think back to when were those times that you felt like answers did come or things felt more clear and then try to recreate those moments. For some people, it might be going for a walk or running, or maybe it's meditating or maybe it's like talking with a friend. For some people, that's how you start to get clear on. On your own kind of position and thoughts and. But essentially just recreating the thing that has worked in the past. I feel like there's something to be said about that. So. Yeah, when so. And I think this is also an important point when you talk about your story and kind of getting closer to what feels like the place that you want to be in is partial evolutions. And I think sometimes we think in full evolutions. Like, I'm here, and I want to be here. How do I get from A to B? But a lot of times I think where it's better if we place that as, like, F or E. And in order to get to F or E, we gotta go A, B, C, D, E, F. And for you, you know, the transition being, hey, I have this work in the world of fashion design, and I know I also want to be living somewhere else. And so you figure out the living somewhere else equation while maintaining the, you know, a similar work environment. And then once you did that, it sounds like what you did is you said, okay, now I know I want to. I've partially evolved kind of location. I'm in a place that feels inspiring and, like, a good fit for who I am. Now. What does it look like to evolve the work or, like, career portion of the equation? Is that kind of, when you look back at it, how it played out?

Yeah, it definitely was like a slow evolution, like a snowball or something just kind of unfolding. Because I think some people, like, maybe who are listening just are totally black and white. They just cut everything off completely. Like, okay, I did photography, and now I do graphic design. And I. It's just for me, I'm just. I like to do things a little bit slowly and more intentionally rather than just cut something off completely. So I was just. I kind of worked backwards of like, okay, I know these factors. A, you know, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Like, all these are kind of my parameters of what makes me happy and fulfilled and how can I make my lifestyle, my career fit into that. And for me, it was like a slow evolution. But once I started actually thinking about them, the easier was for me to come to terms with, okay, this is my next step that I'm on.

What did that look like then? When you knew photography was kind of the path forward, or at least what you wanted to focus on, and you had, you know, a traditional W2 job and you. But you wanted to evolve into this world of photography. How did you start to introduce the thing that you were passionate about and interested in into your life in a way that was, like, career oriented? Like, okay, I'm gonna figure out how to, like, do this as a thing?

Yeah, it always Starts. So it started with food photography because I love cooking and I love food and just the stories that are around food because it's such a human thing that we all have connected to. And so it started by just capturing things locally, you know, in my farmer's market or I would reach out to brands or companies on the island and offer a free, you know, shoot or something and just say, hey, you know, I'm just interested to build my portfolio up. And that way I had kind of just some hands on experience working with people. And then once I felt like I had a solid portfolio of a variety of different things, that's when I had the confidence to actually like email brands and say, hey, look like I can create this in this sort of way, you know, tell this sort of story with your product. And then it kind of just grew from that point.

Yeah, it's, I think it's one of the things that people don't give enough credit to, which is like doing work for free. And especially in the early stages. And I think so often we are coached on like, get paid what you're worth and like, and it's. All of it's really true. And that's the hard part is like, it's not that it's not true, it's just that in some instances there is other truth. And that other truth is what you are trying to do. Like the exchange that you have in that relationship isn't one where you're like, I'm going to give you something and then you're going to give me money. And the exchange is I'm going to give you something and what you're going to get is like something that builds your portfolio which then allows you to sell more confidently or in just an easier way. And so it's almost like you compress the length of time it would take for you to close a deal because you're creating a more compelling workbook or portfolio that you are then able to put in front of people. Did you find in those early stages when you were reaching out to people and saying maybe it was a restaurant or something, or a brand, hey, would love to document your stuff for free. Did you hear back from people quite a bit and generally where they're like.

Great, yeah, but I think that's maybe just like a switch that doesn't work in my mind because I sent out hundreds of emails and so many of them never replied and never responded. And I think it's having that resiliency and maybe a little bit of shamelessness where you Just like, I don't care. I'm just gonna keep emailing and reaching out.

Yeah.

And then, you know, eventually they'll reply and then you'll connect and it, you know, it falls through. But I think you just, if you're just starting out, I think you really have to have thick skin and just put yourself out there and you know, continually just ask and be think outside of the box. Like even just two days ago, I shot for free for this bakery here and I was actually the one to reach out and be like, hey, I would love to just shoot for you. Just because I wanted to have that aspect for me and my own portfolio. And by doing so, it creates a really wonderful relationship. Because now they see your value, they see the work that you've put in, you have something really wonderful to now included in your portfolio that wasn't there before. And you know, in the future, you know, they'll maybe share it with their friends. They'll tell people they'll may come back to you in the future and be like, we'd love to do another shoot with you. So it's like giving, you have to give something in order to get something back. I think in the early days. But I think being like resilient and consistent and persistent are just so critical when you're just beginning.

Yeah.

And so much of what I think about in those relationships is like, take it. Take anything outside of the context of a business relationship and think about it in that way. Like, okay, you're meeting a new friend for the first time. Like, how do you be a good friend? Well, you go to dinner and you pay for it. Or like you come over and you bring bars. Like, I don't know, like you do some type of exchange where you are giving before you're asking. And relationally, that's how we're built. Like, we exchange these things. We establish trust, especially in a situation where you're not known over time. Like, as you become somebody who does, and this would be in the world of like a portfolio building, but also like, as you start to establish those that trust and those relationships, what can happen then is like you said, somebody can say, hey, I worked with this person. They were really great. And if you need a photographer, here's who you can reach and who you can connect with. And so, so much of it comes back to these, like, you know, foundational behaviors of how we interact in the real world. Those transfer over into business relationships. But sometimes we forget about that and thinks that it's like all transactional. But all of it is just like people interacting with other people and it's relationships and at its best, it's all about like, trust and, you know, people feeling comfortable with who you are and whether that be in a regular relationship or a business relationship. So for you now, what does day to day look like? Like, are you doing. Is the majority of the work that you're doing working with restaurants? Is it branded photography for different brands? Like, how do things look for you now, day to day or week to week?

Yeah, so I do some branding right now, but what I'm actually really focusing on is develop a program for new photographers to. It's going to be a monthly program where it helps people in three different categories of mindset, business and photography. So every month there'll be a new module that is released. So that's kind of my baby of the moment that I've been focusing on. And it's. I'm hoping it's going to be like a really nurturing space to support people and then their photography journey. Essentially, it's a program I wish I had when I started out because I was so in the dark, because I came from a different background. I don't have formal training in photography, so I learned all these things, you know, as I went. So that's kind of where what I've been focusing on in the moment.

Yeah, yeah. So why those three things? You said it was mindset, business and photography.

Yeah, yeah.

Talk to me about the value of each of those things and why you created those as like kind of the three segments of the program.

Yeah, yeah. So I think they all are related. It's almost like the camera, like ISO, aperture and shutter speed, it's just like they're all kind of interconnected and the more you play with one, it affects the other. So business training, I think creatives, and I'm so guilty of this, we are not the most business savvy when it comes to starting your own business. So the trainings will include, you know, how to market yourself, how to price yourself, how to reach out to, you know, brands, how to structure your, your business, that the business foundations your, your values for your business. So all of these things that we sometimes neglect because we're so focused on that creative portion. And then the photography will be really nitty gritty trainings in terms of like, how to find your visual, you know, shooting in natural light, you know, portraiture, how to, you know, editing different, different types of sessions for photography topics in general. And then mindset is a big one. And I'M really glad that I'm including this because I think especially for beginners, we can get really stuck in our own way and we compare ourselves. We don't feel like we're good enough. We are wondering why we're not there yet. We're wondering how we stack up against. And having that confidence and self belief and self worth really goes hand in hand with putting out your best work and feeling confident and knowing that there's more for you. Even though you may be just on this one spot right now, there's a whole. There's so much potential ahead of you. So I think all of those complement each other nicely.

Yeah, let's. If, if we could. Obviously we don't want. It's not like we're gonna go through the whole, you know, course or whatever, but like, let's pull out one from each of those. So like in the business category, for somebody who's. And my guess is this is for people who want to build a photography business. Like build a business of photography. Is that more or less accurate for like the. Yeah. And. Or become a better photographer. Like, that probably would also apply. But let's say in the. On the business, in the. In the business section, like, what's one actionable thing that you could put in front of people who are listening to this podcast and say, like, here's something from a business standpoint that you should consider valuable insight, a tool, like a tactic, you know, a way to go about things, just to get a sample of like, what that might look like and to hear from you a little bit about things.

Yeah, I think for photographers, um, one thing is really important to consider is just like, what is your offerings? Like, are you service based? Are you product based? You mean, do you sell prints? Do you sell packages? Or do you actually just work as a service, you know, by contra. Like freelancing. So I think you have to really think about these two distinct categories of which one you want to fall in. Because if your product base, that could be online courses, that could be an ebook, that could be prints, that could be YouTube, things like anything digital, you know, that you would sell online or, you know, you know, physical print products or things like that, or if it's like more service based, where you're actually working with clients and brands and freelancing and maybe publications or shooting for cookbooks, it's like really just kind of like thinking of like, what avenue do you want to go down? Do you want to do both? Do you want to kind of like do a merger of both Things. But I think the more we can really fine tune what we actually offer. Because sometimes you're like, oh, I'm just a photographer. Like, okay, well, what do you do? What do you offer? Do you offer branded shoots? Do you offer portraits? Do you offer food? You know, just restaurant food photography. You know, it's like being really clear on what are your offerings.

Yeah, it's almost like imagining somebody coming to your site and thinking, you know, seeing it hitting a landing page and being like, is this for me or is this not for me? And I imagine in the world where you have decided that you're going to do restaurant photography and you're going to help restaurants build really compelling images or create really compelling images for their menu or their menu board or their restaurant or social media for somebody to, who owns a restaurant that comes to your site and they see, oh, this person does restaurant photography. Here's some testimonials. It's a very quick yes. It's also a quick no for somebody who has product and they want to sell, like, you know, quinoa chocolate crisps. And they're like, oh, this person probably could do it. But I see they're specialized in restaurant photography. And so very quickly you're able to filter out yes or no. And it seems like sometimes the temptation would be like, I kind of do everything, I'm a photographer. But what then? Yeah, you can speak to this. But it feels like what happens then is then you kind of don't do anything. And so even though it's like there's a thousand different yeses, but they're all kind of like watered down yeses where people aren't like, oh, this is exactly what I need. Does that feel accurate?

Yeah, definitely. I think, like, if, if you know, you want to do restaurant photography and that's what you want to focus on is helping restaurants build their brand and curate their menus, that shouldn't be solely your focus for your website and your branding and your social media, your story, who you are as a person, as a photographer. Because I think the more we infiltrate other things, you know, we do restaurant photography, but then we also post a picture of like a family portrait we shot, you know, last weekend. It just doesn't, it's not cohesive and it doesn't. It's not like a hell yes to that person, that restaurant that's looking for that service. So I think the clear we can be on what we offer. It just makes it so obvious because if you say, like, I'm a photographer, well, okay, but what is that? What does that mean? And what do you offer? Because I think it's wonderful to be have all these interests in different types of photography, but in terms of actually, like, making money and selling a service, we have to be super distinct and deliberate of what we share and show.

Yeah. And part of it, too. You know, we've talked about this in podcasts before, but there's. It's. What do you want to do? What are you excited about? But also what's the need? Like, there has to be a market pull in order for there to be potential for you to, like, build a business around that. So do you have any thoughts on that or advice for people who don't really know what's needed within the market? Or even like, I imagine family portraits is one of those where there's like always going to be a need, but there's probably also a lot of competition. There's a lot of other people doing it. Any advice for people who are kind of trying to figure out what that is?

Yeah, I think it's like an intersection between what's needed and what you enjoy. Because personally, like, I don't want to shoot weddings, even though I know there's a market here for it in Maui and there's like, it's Tundra is very infiltrated. But I know that's not because I know if it's. If I don't personally enjoy it, I know I'm probably not going to be very good at it either. I'm not going to enjoy it. So I think it's this need of, like, looking, okay, well, what do I enjoy? What do I enjoy shooting? What do I enjoy doing? And then what. What else out there that is needed? Maybe it's photographing a blogger's food recipes or something. And you reach out to a food blogger and be like, hey, your photos are not so great. I mean, the recipes are good, but I could help you with your photos. And so it's like kind of finding this cross balance across intersection, I guess, of what you enjoy versus what you feel like you could give some value to that's out there.

I think of. There's this quote that I think of Frederick Buchner, who is, I think, kind of a theologian and an author. He says the place God calls you is the place where your deep gladness and the world's deep hunger meet. And I think of.

I like that.

What a great exercise for us as creative people to think about, like, you know, what is our deep gladness? And where does. It's essentially exactly what you're saying. Where does the world's deep hunger, like, where is that intersection? And I think of, like, humans of New York for people who aren't familiar with that, you know, the channel and I don't even know his name, but, like, he's a photographer and he goes out and photographs people, but then he also asks them questions and he rolls that all into a story that he tells that really resonates with people. And there's an obvious, like, the world has a hunger to hear the story of other people. And it seems like for this photographer, he has a, you know, it brings him deep gladness, it seems like. And so it's, for us as creators, it's thinking, where do those, where do those things overlap? And how can we find that? So I love that.

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How about switching into the photography side of things? So my guess is in some capacity, everybody who listens to this has either at some period done the photography for their business, probably still do photography to some level. Maybe they work with a photographer so they need to understand what good photography looks like. But it's a really big, broad question. But like, for somebody who wants to get better at photography, how do you do that? Like, what is the. What are the steps you need to take and skills you need to develop?

Sure it is. That's a broad question, but I think it can Just be whittled down to what, you know, people are like, well, what's your style? Well, your style is how you interpret the world, how you see the world. So thinking about how you interpret what you see and how does that, like how is there a pattern within all your images? Like how does that reflect who you are? And also I think it's about conveying. It's not just about conveying information like, oh, this is a piece of bread on a board. There's something deeper there that we have to convey something else. It's not. It's like creating a photo that's about something, not of something. Does that make sense?

Can you, can you explain more on that? Like double click on that thought.

Yeah. So it's like, okay, I could take a picture, let's say of a house on a lake and it's just a flat, you know, a house right on the lake. Right. But then what would. And that's just a picture of a house on a lake. That's not. There's nothing there. There's nothing telling me anything more about it. But if I backed up and I included other elements that were a part of that scene, maybe it's the dog that was running by or the birds that were flying across the sky or the. There's like something subtle like it's actually about this place. And like maybe it's the old man that's walking around the corner with his buckets of grain because he's feeding his ducks. Whatever it's like about place. So I think it's like not just conveying what you see, but what, what's the story of this place or subject?

You know, this is a really specific example, but Lindsay, my wife Lindsay, just published a post and it's like a chocolate chip cookie recipe which you know, isn't novel. It's a little bit unique in that she calls it two huge chocolate chip cookies. The idea being it's like for two people but the, the first, or I guess it's the second image in the post is are that it's a plate and it's the cookies and it's Lindsay holding one up and then it's our three year old Lena's hand like reaching in.

Yeah.

For the cookie that's on the plate. And you know, it's like I know the moment and. But it also tells a story that's so different than if it was just two cookies on a plate. Yeah. And is that a little bit of kind of what you're getting at is like figuring out how to tell the story with the image.

Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. It's just like you have two cookies in a plate and. Okay, that's all it is. It's two cookies on a plate. But what if you, you know, cut up the chocolate chip cookie and it was, like, melted and then it was kind of. The chocolate was, like, smeared on the plate and then your daughter's hand was, like, coming over and her hands are all stained with chocolate. There's so much more interesting and intriguing. There's a story there, and it's not just about. It's not just of these cookies. It's like, about what's happening in a moment. And I think that's, you know, how to improve your photography is like, really thinking about a moment, not just simple information in front of you, if that makes sense.

Yeah, it's. And, and, and you talked a little bit about it. You know, you talked about it being interesting or unique. Is that what we're trying to get at? Like, are we trying to get at novel? And if so, why? Like, what is the purpose behind wanting to tell a story with an image?

Yeah, Well, I think it so goes back to who we are as humans. And, you know, storytelling is such a part of our DNA and who we are as people. And I mean, it's passed down through generations, just, you know, orally. But visually, it's like, why would a brand want to work with someone, you know, if there's no life or something that's going to call this potential buyer to purchase this product? So I think visual storing is a way to engage the viewer and evoke a sense of emotion and really tap into our humanness. And that could be done through color or composition or how we frame the photo or the subjects within it. So for me, I think storytelling really makes a photo come alive and it brings this humanness to it. And even if there's no humanness or human in this, the frame, it. You can tell like something was there. It feels lived in and authentic and real, rather than, you know, some of these images you see on Instagram or Facebook or wherever that are just so perfectly styled, perfectly. Everything's just curated to a table. But to me, that just feels so sterile and not. I can't connect to that because it doesn't feel real. Like, I relate to, you know, your daughter's chocolate chip cookie hand stains, like, on the white tablecloth and. Because it feels like life, you know. So I think the more we can embody life into our images pulls at you Instantly. And it engages you within the scene and the product. If you're a product, you know, a brand.

Yeah. It's almost like trying to understand who we are and how we operate as people and then thinking about in the different mediums that we interact, what does it look like to recreate that in some way? And in, you know, we talked about it in the instance of, like, trading emails back and forth, or like, reaching out to a brand and giving before asking. In this case, it's like, what are some of the things that we are most drawn to? Story is one of them. And that comes out in our desire to watch a TV show or go to a movie or listen to a book or something like that. All of those are just us watching stories. And what does that then look like to tell a story through a static image? And it's interesting to hear you talk about, like, here are the ways that you can do that. You can introduce humanity. You can introduce something that is imperfect, because we as people are imperfect people. And when we see that imperfection, we resonate with it to some degree. So it's inspiring to hear you talk about that. And I almost think about, like, in an iPhone, you can set it to be a live photo, and it's like, what does it look like to try and make a live photo in a static image? Like, what are the elements of that thing being alive that could then be in a static photo? So that's great. And then what about in the world of mindset? Like, that's such an important thing. You talked about, just briefly, this idea of comparison, how difficult that is. We talk about this idea of, like, compare and despair. Like, no matter where you are in your career, that always seems to be true. But what's one thing, whether it's comparison or something else that you would communicate as an important consideration for creators or, you know, in this case, photographers. What's a. What's a mindset that's been most helpful for you as you've built your career?

Yes, definitely. I think it's having a conversation with myself, but in three different versions. It's like the past me, the present me, and the future me. So when I feel insecure or I'm afraid or I feel like I'm one, I comparing myself to someone else, or I scroll through Instagram and I get triggered by something because I see someone book this major client and there's that paying. Like, you get the jealous or, you know, you just. Like, there's. We're human. And it's so natural to Be, you know, on top of our game and then just be thrown off completely by something we see or someone. Something says, someone says. But I think it's like, we can have this. Take a step back and be like, okay, well, what would the past me say of where I'm now? And where would. What would my future say to me today? What words of encouragement or support do I need to hear from both of them? Because I think if, for instance, if we take comparison or comparison to other people as an example, it's just such a trap that I think so many people fall into as photographers and just creatives in general, because there's. We live in this world of social media and there's so many images that we see an influx of every day, and it's natural to compare yourself to someone else. And I think if we actually just stay tuned to, like, the path we're on and the vision of where we're going and the business we want to create, and, you know, we just can't compare ourselves to someone who has 20 years under their belt versus where we are right now. And it's like having compassion and grace with ourselves and reconnecting to your why and, you know, why you're doing this. Why do you love photography? And just kind of coming back to those questions. But I think, like, talking to your past self and your future self to support you in the moment has been so helpful for me.

Yeah, it's interesting. There's this book we've talked about a couple times called the Gap and the Gain. But the basic premise of it. Are you familiar with it?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like, I think of the idea of, well, the basic premise being, like, oftentimes on any given day, like, for all of us, you know, anybody listening to this podcast or for you and I right now, like, we are at this point in our lives, and if we look backwards, like, there's a lot of ground that we have gained, and if we talked to the version of ourself that was, like, at the very beginning of whatever that journey is, and they were to connect with this person that is here today, they might say, like, wow, like, look at you. This is really incredible that you have done this and you've learned a lot and you're a different person and you have these skills and abilities and, you know, maybe this acknowledgement of this ground that you've covered. And, you know, in the book, they talk about this idea of, like, the gap being us looking at, like, the ground that we haven't covered, but it's Fun to think about. Like, what would it look like for that person to look backwards at where we are today, the person who's at the, you know, other end of that gap, and to say, like, hey, you know what? Like, stick with it. You're going to get through it. You're going to figure it out. It's going to be good. And I love that idea of having a conversation with. With both of those Personas, the ones your Persona from the past and your Persona from the future. Just kind of the reassurance that each of those Personas would give you as you're on your journey makes a lot of sense. So you've done a lot in the world of photography, and you have, you know, when we talk about the gain you have covered a lot of that ground. What would your advice be for that person who is just starting out? Like, it's not you. You're not looking back and having that conversation with you, but it's that person who's just at the beginning and in the early stages, and they might be listening to this podcast. What would your advice be for them?

Yeah, I just stay. I would say to stay open and just explore and experiment and develop a real visual literacy of trying and shooting, you know, so many different things and, you know, whatever piques your interest, follow it. I always say just, like, follow your curiosity of maybe, you know, like sometimes, you know, if you go traveling and then for whatever reason you feel like I should shoot that, just shoot it. Like, don't even second guess, just shoot it. Because I think the more you just follow your. Your intuition and that curiosity of, be it food photography, street photography, whatever, the more you can, like, really find who you are as a photographer and maybe, you know, then say no to something completely like, I'll never do this again, or I'll never do that again. But the more you can explore and experiment and just be open to learn and just have this curiosity to just keep shooting and practicing, I think is my best advice.

I don't remember. So this is going to be a terrible story. Speaking of stories, I'm going to set it up by saying this is going to be a terrible one because I don't remember a lot of the details, but it was like, the premise was this. They were doing a study and they asked people to go in, and I don't even remember. I would give credit to whoever shared this story originally, but I don't remember who it is. So it's going to be a really flimsy story. But hopefully the. The kind of the purpose of it will be clear. The study was like, we want to see who's going to have the best, you know, the best pots. It's. It was a pottery experiment. And so they said they had two groups, and they said, okay, with one group. They set it up as, we want you to be as careful as possible with making each one of these pots. We want your goal is perfection. Your goal is quality. And then they told the other group of people, we want you to just, like, make as many as you can. And your goal is quantity. And the goal is to get as many out there, you know, to create as many pots as possible, to throw as many spots as possible. And what they found was the group who they had instructed to not care about quality, but to care about quantity ended up with higher quality. Because naturally what happened is they went in not being precious about what the outcome would be, and they had repetition. And that repetition is what allowed them to evolve and to funnel into the things that were working. And, you know, Ed Sheeran talks a lot about how the most important thing for him as a songwriter was writing in thousands of songs in order to get, like, the bad songs out in order to then have good songs. And I think part of what I hear you saying is, like, do it. Like, don't be precious about it. Get out there, shoot all the different things you think you might want to shoot and get after it. Because that's going to be the thing that helps you refine your process, understand what you do, like, evolve your skills. And it's. It's going to help accelerate you towards the place that you want to get. Is that feel accurate?

I totally agree. Yeah. Cause I think there was a quote, another quote by a photographer that said, like, your first hundred thousand photographs will be terrible or something. Maybe it's 10,000. It's just like, you have to get through. There's a growing time, and you have to just get through all those bad ones. And then to you really find tune, like, what you like and what you're good at. Um, and even now, like, when I approach a shoot, it's usually takes me a while to, like, really like these photos. Like, oh, it's like the last few. When I start editing, sometimes I'll start from the. The end because I know, like, that's when I'm most warmed up to my subject and my scene. Those are the ones I end up liking. Yeah, it took me, you know, some time to just kind of get there and then warm up and then. But there is. You just have to, like, get through this point and then all that is not useless. It's. It's so productive. And it. It doesn't. It doesn't. It's not a waste of time when I'm saying you have to do it. Yeah.

Even if the images are bad or they're not what you want.

Oh, yeah. I have so many bad images.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's in service of getting closer to where you want to be and kind of compressing. If you take a hundred thousand photos over 20 years, you know, that's one thing. You could also take a hundred thousand photos in a year maybe. And the idea being like, you're going to have to do it one way or the other, and so just accept it and to move through it. Yeah, I think that's great. So, Lana, there's going to be a lot of people who are interested, following along with what you're up to. I know you've also published some books, and my guess is there's also people who'd be interested in learning from you and seeing what you're up to with the content that you're going to be creating and the education and the course. So where can people follow along with you and what you're up to? Point us in all the right directions and we'll include those in the show notes.

Okay, sure. So you can see my website. It's just Alana Oneil.com and then Instagram, everyone's favorite. It's Alana O' Neal photo. And I offer a mentorship program for new photographers. And the program that I'm talking about that covers business and mindset and photography training is called Visual Voices Collective. And I'm hoping to launch this autumn. So I'm still, still being in the works and being developed. So stay tuned for that.

Well, that's great, Lana. Thanks so much for coming on.

Thank you so much for having me.

Hey there. This is Emily from the Food Blogger Pro team. And thank you so much for listening to that episode. Episode. We really appreciate it. If you liked this episode or enjoy the show, we would really appreciate you leaving a review or rating wherever you listen to your podcast episodes. Ratings and reviews help get the show in front of new listeners and help us grow our little show into something even bigger. We read each and every review and it makes us so happy to hear. When you're enjoying the podcast or what you would like us to improve or change in upcoming episodes, all you have to do is find the Food Blogger Pro podcast. Wherever you listen to podcasts, whether it's on Apple or Spotify or another player and enter a rating and review. While you're there, make sure to subscribe to the podcast so that you never miss a new episode. We really appreciate it so much and it makes such a huge difference for our show, so thanks in advance and that's all we have for you today, so have a great week.

Sam.