472: Coaching Call: Increasing Search Traffic, Determining What to Prioritize, and Strategizing for Business Growth with Cameron Crawley and Sarah Cobacho from plantbaes

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Hey there. This is Emily from the Food Blogger Pro team and you are listening to the Food Blogger Pro Podcast. This episode is part two of three of our Summer Membership Spotlight. As part of the special podcast series, we are sharing a piece of content that is normally exclusive to Food Blogger Pro members and we will be sharing this on the last Tuesday of the month for June, July and August. This month we are excited to share an audio version of a Coaching call. Every month, Bjork conducts a coaching call with a Food Blogger Pro member where they submit three questions that they might have about their blog business, social media, whatever it may be. This coaching call is with Cameron and Sarah from the Blog Plant Bays. They share more about how they first started sharing content on Instagram in 2021 and how they quickly grew their following to over 1 million followers. They also talk about why they decided to start a blog and then pick Bjork's brain about any changes they could make to their website to make it more user friendly, to help with SEO, and to drive traffic to their email newsletter list. They also talk through what they might do to increase their business revenue and advice on getting backlinks, improving domain authority, and other just general SEO stuff. It was a long coaching call but a really good one and we're so excited to be able to share it with a broader audience today. As a reminder, if you would like to become a part of the Food Blogger Pro community, you can head to foodbloggerpro.com membership to learn more and to join us. We would love to have you. Without further ado, I'll let Bjork take it away.

Cam and Sarah, welcome to the coaching call.

Thank you very much. Very grateful to be here. Thank you.

You are are up bright and early. It's 7am there. I'm at the end of my day. So thank you first of all for getting up early starting this day off. We're just jumping right into it. It's like maybe a little bit of coffee and then straight into a coaching call. I'm ready. Yeah, I have some coffee here too. So at least we have that in common right off the bat. But I'm excited to talk to both of you with these coaching calls. One of the things that we do is we talk about what is a goal that somebody's after and how do we even just talk through what it might look like to get to that goal. One of the great things in your story is that you've built a following and you have success on social platforms and a following on platforms, a million followers on Instagram and that has been able to translate from what I understand into success with your site getting that up and running. We're going to focus on that a little bit. But I would love to hear about your story and what you've built through the years and you've also been working on that together, which we might talk about kind of how Lindsay and I have done that through the years as well. But maybe. Sarah, do you want to start with just talking about your story and how you got started creating content online?

Sure. So I was actually studying nutrition. I'm plant based and it's a huge passion of mine. So we actually started the website and the all content creation thing while I was still studying as a way to build up for my nutrition clinic. And it's always been a goal of us. We've always consumed a lot of content. We love YouTube. It's always been like an idea, but we didn't really know what it would look. Look like and we started doing videos on Instagram and it took off quite quickly.

So when was that?

20. 21?

September? Yeah. End of 21.

Yeah. Wow. So like, really recently.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We're brand new to this whole world, so.

Yeah. Good for you guys. What do you think it, what do you think it was about the, the content that you were creating that resonated with people?

I think it was that Sarah's very good at. Sarah's a nutritionist. I've got a Video background. So it was very easy for me to like jump on the camera and direct Sarah a little bit. And I think we also started right when Instagram were really pushing reels. Like they've been going on for a little bit, but they, I think when we got into it was really like. So we got like on that momentum already.

So, yeah, we've never posted any photos or anything. It was 100% real from the beginning. And I think it's a combination of, well, plant based foods, a little bit trending. But we, our recipe are really focused on the nutrition aspect as well. But I'm really, really passionate about eating. It's always been my whole thing, so I think it just works.

It's one of the things that I love about that is, you know, we often talk about what it takes to succeed in this world of content creation. It's multivariate. There's, you know, multiple factors. And one of the factors is like, do you catch the wave of the medium at the right time? And you spoke to that and saying like, hey, there's, you know, we were producing video content exclusively from the start and, and, and that's what you focused on. That was definitely a wave. And then it's like the respective experience and background that you each have. And for Sarah, you have this background and expertise been professionally, you know, you've gone to school, professionally trained in the world of nutrition and cam. For you, you have a video background. So it's really cool to see all of those things come together. And then what you talked about is like, you're just naturally passionate about it. And so it's like passion plus the correct medium of video, plus your respective talents all coming together in a way where, if I'm understanding it correctly, in two to three years on Instagram, at least you're able to build to a million followers. Is that more, right? Less?

Yeah.

Which has been kind of a wild ride. Probably.

Yeah. It's been some scary times there because we both worked on like, you know, other sort of side hustles and like I was doing podcast editing and video editing and stuff like that before, and I sort of like halfway, halfway through 2021 is when I was like, okay, we need, let's just do this full time. This is like so exciting. I love doing this.

Yeah, I think I had nutrition cleaning up for a good three months and then we were like, okay, content, this is so exciting. We get to do it together. We really love it. And we also get to touch so many more people. And when, I mean When I was in clinic. It's one on one.

One to one. Yeah.

Yeah. We get just so many people every day. It's incredible. Such a fantastic opportunity.

And I'm sure you hear from a lot of people who follow up and tell their story of like how the content impacted them and which is awesome. And a global audience that you can speak to, which is just really, really cool.

It's the most wonderful feeling.

Yeah, that's awesome.

Spends like an hour and a half a day just writing to people on.

Comments, interacting pretty much every single comments that we get. Unless they really mean it's. Yeah. My favorite part. The community we've built.

That's awesome. Congratulations. That's super exciting. And so what did that look like in the early stages? Just out of curiosity. So you're building this, you're getting momentum. My guess is in order to allow you to make that transition was the initial business revenue. Sponsored content. So brand comes to you and says, hey, can we partner and you can feature this ingredient or you know, this plant based food. Is that what it's been primarily up to this point?

Yeah, that's what it was in the beginning.

And then pretty much the first two years that was all.

Yeah.

And then at this point, you know, one of the things that we're going to focus on is kind of talking about the site and spending some time there. If you were to just say like percentage wise, if you look at the pie chart, like what does the business look like right now in terms of revenues at like 50 sponsor content, 50% like ad revenue or what does. What does just at a high level, what does that look like?

I just finished our first cookbook so that's been taking us a lot of time. So we haven't been really focused on getting brand partnership. We've been really focused on that and.

The cookbook, which is great.

And Cam's been working on the site, I've been working on the book. So we've just started again working with brands in the next few weeks.

That's great. And I think anybody who's done a cookbook or any book knows like you, you have to not do some things in order to do that. Yeah. Like it's a big commitment. So let's talk about. Yeah, go ahead, sir.

No, I just wanted to. To say for context, brand deals are very different in Australia than what they look like in the US budget wise. And it's not really something we want to rely on. It's not something I like to consider. A little bonus. We are so quite Restricted because it has to be still really fitting in what we have promote and align, which is not that.

So on that, on that note, our blog has. Our blog ad revenue is pretty much like our main source.

Yep, that's great. And that makes sense too. Like with sponsored content, it's not like you want to because you are so specific and because you are, my guess is opinionated in a good way about types of food and what food you want to eat. My guess is also there's a bend towards, you know, it's. Was it Mark Bittman who says like eat plants? He has that phrase around. Like, essentially it's like as much as.

Possible, not too much, not too something.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But just this idea of like it's you want to eat plant based and the best types of plant based.

Yes.

Foods to eat is like things that, where you can get as close to possible as to where it's produced and you know, like, so point being, it's not like a candy bar company would be like, who has a big budget could come to you and be like, hey, can we work together? You'd be like, sounds nice, but no, like, so. So you want to be careful of the branded partnerships that you do, which makes sense. Cookbook will be coming out, which is great. And then now starting to think strategically about ad revenue from the site. So can you talk about where the site came in? Like, when did you, you launched that kind of at the same time. Have you always kind of been working on it at the, at a similar pace to what you've been working on with social or what does that look like?

So we started. I used to sort of dabble in like WIX and stuff like that sort of basic drag and drop. So we had our, our website on there first and we had it on there until last year in like June when I started figuring out more of where we can make income on the side from our sponsored content. And I was just googling around and I actually landed on your articles on the income reports. That was so inspiring. I was just like, oh my God, I didn't realize this was a thing. So the world was literally like blown away as a whole new world. And then I found like other people who've been obviously inspired by you to do income reports and they had like following similar to ours on social media. So it really made it possible to me. So while Sarah did the cookbook, I pretty much spent that like two months learning WordPress and transferring all our recipes over from Wix, which was a massive Job.

Yeah.

And so that's been live since I think, I think August. And then we got into Raptive in September, so a month later.

Yep.

Yeah, but like, all the recipe were just the recipe card, an Instagram photo, and the Instagram caption, so they weren't really like blog posts, so.

Yep. And so kind of getting the lay of the land. You have your social accounts, you have a. Especially on Instagram, a good following there. But on the others as well, you have your site now on Raptive and consistently earning money from that. And the goal would be. It sounds like, what does it look like to kind of focus on the site as the next growth area? Is that more or less kind of how you're thinking of it or approaching it right now?

I think. I think for now we're really, like, satisfied with the sort of, like, how it's a. Pretty much a passive income.

Like, we.

We're happy to work on it and build it as much as we can, but we do want to focus on the next thing, which will be digital products and then down the line, a community or something like that.

Yep.

But for now, we're definitely happy with, like, where it's at and we want to sort of improve it as much as we can.

Yeah.

To become like a solid passive income source.

Yep. And we're gonna. Were you gonna add to that? Yeah, Semi passive is probably the best way to deal.

I'm just saying, like, it's. Yeah. In. In the next few months, it does look like a lot of mean just rebuilding all of those recipes. I've mentioned since September, we've been learning about blogging and everything, and turns out I absolutely love it. So we're now taking, like, making those beautiful posts and it's. It's a lot of fun, but we need to get all of those other recipes that are really good but don't have this full information added to them. So that's a little bit of work in the background too.

Yep. That's great. Um, awesome. You guys have done a great job and I think we'll continue to find success in what you do. Like, you have the different components with your individual expertise and also like a proven, you know, history of creating content that resonates with people. Obviously on a blog, the. It's a. It's different than what it would look like on social, but I think the core thesis of, like, creating things that people want is the same. And if you go from having a million followers and, you know, from zero to a million in three to four years, there's something there. There's something that people want and I would encourage you to like double down on that and to really lean in because you guys have all of the different component parts that you need to build a really success. You already have built a really successful thing, but to like build it even greater and to reach even more people. So if you were to say, like the general goal with a site is to increase traffic, to build a following, you know, obviously to increase that semi passive income that comes along with it, is there something be behind that goal that then allows you to feel like, hey, this is what we're really after. Like we each want to be at a point where this, we feel secure having this be our only thing and both of our salaries come from this. In order for us to work on this full time or for some people, it's like, I really want to get to this point so then I can hire somebody and they can help with some of the day to day. So I'm not having to work as much. Or would you have something kind of like the spirit behind the goal of growth that you could identify and it could be different for each of you?

Sure.

I think the goal would be to, as you said, kind of. To be honest, we're so new to blogging, so I don't really know what's possible in terms of the numbers and how much we could actually make per year. Like at the moment it's covering the bills, which is really nice. So that's why we're already looking at like maybe we need to start digital products and build a community. So yeah, I don't really know what's possible in terms of the blog income. I know that it can be like, y can be huge, but I think the overall goal would be that it's something we outsource and I think everything in our business we'd like to have a team to help handle. I think we're pretty similar to you and Lindsay in a way where you really love the tech side of things. And I've seen you like, you have so many different businesses going. Like that's what I love doing as well. I love creating new projects. Whereas Sarah's really good at the creative side of things and, and being like amongst her community. So I feel like there's a, there's kind of a semi passive thing. We don't want to like just retire and live on a Greek island. We want to do that but also be like working on projects.

Yeah, right.

And, and working like. Exactly.

Yeah.

And having like maybe Retreats, like constantly be doing like fun things and adding value to the world and to our community.

Yeah. Awesome. That's great.

Yeah. Sarah, anything different?

Look, it's, it's very similar, but you are a bit more into the business. I'm a bit more focused on my community at this stage and I've just been really, really loving it. And that's, that's my passion project. This is not a side hustle. This is not. I'm seeing this for the next 40 years. You know, I don't know what it's going to look like. But yeah, like, I think the blog is going to be a very big component and at this stage I just really want to be focused to bring as much as we can. And I, my mind is blown because Cam's been working on this in the background for this last six months, but for me it's been two months since the book. So it's just been like a lot of fun. And I think, yes, there's a lot to do and I would love to have a team to help us take this to the next level.

Yeah, that's experts. Totally, totally. And that's one of, you know, I think that's one of the things that you'll find is like, as you continue to grow and scale it, one of the biggest unlocks is when you can bring somebody in who has that kind of industry expertise. And there's a term that I thought of a lot within the context of what we were doing with business building, which is intentional ignorance. And it's kind of an extreme example of what I feel like we should all at least be contemplating, which is how do you have somebody owning a thing that is really good at that, that allows you to be like, to kind of release it and to say, this person has it, you know, an example, I think in our world, one of the experts in the food blogger pro communities, Andrew, he has a site called NerdPress and they manage the technical components for, you know, websites like yours and ours. And they're really good at it. And it allows people to kind of step back and say like, okay, I'm not going to manage the day to day with this because they're going to step in and do it. But there's also something to be said, you know, it, it contrasts or goes against that statement of intentional ignorance because there's also something to be said about like knowing just enough to be aware of what's going on. And so I think the phase that you're in is good, where you're learning the ins and outs the industry, you're learning kind of what you need to be aware of even like what is RPM as it relates to ads and things like that. So I think you're in a really good place. But to also strategically be thinking along the way, how do you bring other people in to help out? You have some questions that you submitted here and I would love to jump into those and start to talk about those and we can hit some additional ones at the end if we, if we do have time. So the first question is what are your initial impressions of the website or the blog posts? What would you focus on improving first? So anything that you would add to that just as a, to kind of fill that question out.

To be honest, it's pretty like the website's kind of. I just built it to the point where it could work and bring in ad revenue. Like I haven't really. It's, it's definitely nowhere near where we would want it to be.

Totally. That's gonna be, that's gonna be true for the rest of your life. Like your site will never be where you want it to be. Okay. Yeah. Because ours still, ours isn't either. You know, it's like oh wow.

Because it looks different.

Well, thanks. But it's always, there's always. I think that's one of the things that we've realized is like you have to get to the point where you're just comfortable with things never being where you want them to be because you'll always want them to be like at the next level. So encouragement for you guys.

Well then you're going to have a heart attack when you see our one.

No, I have and I've spent time and I've spent time with it and I think I was actually just texting my sister in law last night and she's starting a travel site. She's into travel and she's like I'm kind of embarrassed by the first version of my site. But like I think the most important thing that we can do is like. And what I said to her is like ship it and share it. Like as much as possible. Ship it and share it and along the way figure out like what is the next thing you're going to make a little bit better and just continually improve along the way. So all that to say like with what you guys have done, it's beautiful and you've done a really good job with it. And I think, you know, there's, there's two kind of broad worlds that you can Speak to one is the technical considerations of a website. And with the technical considerations of a site, what you're going to want to be doing is like, understanding Google Search Console. Like, to go into Google Search Console and to look at it and to say, like, are there any warnings? Are there any errors? Like, that is the hub where Google is going to come to you and say, here are the things that we see as either issues or technically errors. Which is like, you want to fix that right away. Warnings which are like, these are things you could be aware of and improve. Or like, opportunities, like, here's something that you could maybe look at. Adding the technical stuff is going to be things like making sure that you know, there's no broken links. Making sure that you don't have what's called orphaned content. That's like a page that sits on its own and doesn't have links in from any other pieces of content. You're going to want to make sure that, like, all your images are properly marked up with alt text. You're going to want to make sure that you have internal links to, you know, your own pieces of content and external links to other pieces of content. All of this stuff is like, you could just Google Technical SEO Checklist and like Surface, some of that stuff. There are other tools that will also do that for you. Like, there's a tool called Ahrefs, which we use. And Ahrefs will do, like, you know, it'll do SEO keyword information, but it will also offer, like, audit opportunities. This is an internal tool that we built called Clarity that does some of that. So all of these are like, opportunities to do the technical hygiene. Technical hygiene. Technical SEO hygiene for your site. And that would all be really important as well. But the other thing that's really important is just to think about the brand. Like, in the brand is going to be one of those things that, you know, in the conversations that we're having having with creators who are getting, you know, multiple millions of page views to their site, one of the biggest considerations is how do you create something that isn't just getting a bunch of SEO juice and getting people like, click on it randomly and then look at it and leave. Because there are those sites and they have. You can be really successful with it. And it's one of the trends that's happened over the last three to four years is people building out a post kind of with search in mind, like SEO forward content. But what you'll notice is a lot of times it's kind of bland, a lot of Times it has like, not a lot of personality. And there's starting to be a shift in the industry around SEO where there's really like personality forward. Content is becoming more important. So what I would encourage you to do is check all of the boxes from a technical SEO perspective. Make sure that you're fully optimized from all things technical SEO, but also to think really strategically about your brand. And your brand is a little bit of you, but it's also a lot of your community. Like, who are you serving? What are their problems? And how do you let people know that you are going to be the person that's going to help them solve those problems? And I'd be interested to put it back to you to say, like, you know, for the people who are following you, who are interacting with you, what would you say the reason is behind it? Like, what is the reason that they're connecting with you and following with you and interacting with you?

Have a cute French accent.

Yeah, totally.

Okay, I think that's a good hook.

Yeah, for sure. But if it was, some people think it's cute even if you didn't have a French accent. Or I'd say this if you did. But if the content that you're producing wasn't helpful, you know, people wouldn't follow you.

I'm just, I'm just joking.

But also I think, I think there probably is some truth to it. Like, and I think you can lean into it. Like, I think it's a wonderful, it's.

Love and hate as well. Like, some people are very like irritated, which I think also works for us.

It's providing that about like anybody who's producing content for a million people. It's like, yeah, you're going to have.

You'Re going to find something.

Yeah, exactly.

Look, our audience is actually really clear. It's 93% women and that's consistent across all platform. What I provide that is different from other people. There is a lot of noise around plant based nutrition. Everyone's been hearing you need to eat more plants. We do not push people to go vegan. Everybody does whatever they want. What I'm offering is if you want to feed your family or yourself a little bit more plant throughout the week. I have the perfect recipes that have been designed with nutrition knowledge in mind. So all of my recipes have a minimum of 20 grams of protein per serving and make sure you get all of the nutrients of focus that you could be looking to have more on a plant based diet. And all of this is done in the background. We at talk about it into the blog post. But you just like the people who have been here from the beginning just know this is what we provide and they taste really good.

That's the key.

I'm trying to focus. I have a lot of like, like staple like bread, these kind of things. But I'm really trying to focus on easy meal prep, high protein meal prep. They love this one. Like to take to work so you can feel full satisfied for the entire day. And trying to switch a bit to like easy midweek dinner as well. And we have a lot of Mediterranean style recipe because that's where I'm from. So that's. I don't know if that's clear but it ties into.

I think it's like a bit of.

A trend as well.

Everyone's into that.

Sure. And like scientifically proven to be a healthy diet. Like and not like a South beach diet. It's just like this is a good way to eat. Which is awesome. I would say, you know, with your site one of the considerations would be really defining that like letting people know on all the areas that people are coming into contact with you. Like the 20 grams of protein I'm in, I'm in this stage where like I'm trying to eat more protein. And so insofar as like our 5 year old when Lindsay asked what are you gonna get dad for Christmas? She was like a protein maker. But like which is awesome. Yeah. So. So if I was somebody who is it, it feels like a really obvious and helpful problem solution. If I'm somebody who's trying to eat vegan or plant based but also trying to be intentional to have enough protein to know that you are a resource that does that is really helpful. And I would spell that out even like when you go when you land on the homepage like having refining kind of your headline, your H2, like H1 would be the main headline. H2 would kind of be the sub headline. Like really crafting who you are, what you're about and like what sets you apart. And I feel like some of those things that you just shared in talking to me about how you think about creating content and the recipes that you're publishing are the types of things that you need to let people know when they come to your site. Like that's going to be something that's really compelling for people. I think of a really good example in a different world is Beth. Her name is Beth. She has a site called Budget Bites. But like she's created, she has incredible recipes but she's also really, I mean it's the name of the, the brand. She's created this really great following around connecting budget friendly to recipes. And so that's what she's all about. And like everything that she's doing has like how much it costs per recipe or per serving. And that to me is another like differentiator where somebody'd come and they'd say like, oh, this is really helpful. You know her, her tagline that she has in the middle of her site is small budget, no problem. Cooking on a budget couldn't, shouldn't mean canned meals and ramen noodles night after night. Welcome to the world of delicious recipes designed for small budgets. Like that does a really good job. And then everything that she's doing, including here, is like highlighting those different components and those elements. And so, you know, I think as you think about your site and positioning it, make sure to draw those elements out. So people that do come to your site know like maybe it, maybe it is an emphasis on like getting all of the different elements that you need in a meal. And so what you're doing is highlighting and saying, you know, how much protein each serving has and, or like maybe you're highlighting macros or I don't know what it is, you know better than I do. But like starting to integrate some of those differentiators into the site itself. So that would be, it's like it's kind of the technical considerations and you guys will figure that out, you'll get into it, you'll know, making sure that that's all well done. And then there's the branding considerations around differentiating yourself and really leaning into your personal brand and into the, the kind of ethos of the brand itself. So what are your thoughts or questions after talking through it a little bit?

Firstly, do you think the tagline is a bit too broad? The everyday recipes with a healthy touch just based on what Sarah said?

Yeah, I would say probably. You know, the, the interesting thing is like kind of the anti example in this world is Pinch of Yum. It's kind of a broad site that doesn't have a super specific niche. If we were to start today, that would look different. But part of the reason we do that is it's been 14 years and like we just, it's, it's, it is what it is now. But like if we were to go back and start again with a new site, what we would do is at least to start we'd have something very specific and niche. Not because, well, reason being is like we've used this analogy before, but like if you're trying to get somewhere, you could take like you know, a semi truck or you could take a motorcycle. And in the early stages it's going to be easiest to. You're not going to be able to haul much, but to do a motorcycle and then you can, once you get some momentum, you can like upgrade to like a motorcycle with a sidecar and then you can like upgrade to like a, you know, geometro. I don't know if you guys ever had geometros or remember those? Yeah, exactly. Fiat. But to like start super small and specific and then if you feel like you've tapped out that market, then you can kind of land and expand and go bigger. But I think to start it's helpful to have something that you're speaking directly to, to have an audience that you're speaking directly to and then from there kind of expand beyond that. You already have that to some degree being vegan. But it might be helpful to like have it be vegan plus, like vegan plus protein or vegan plus like Mediterranean. Like that just as a consideration, like something that you could potentially think about. So other thoughts around that one, if that's okay.

So.

Yeah, yeah, no, that's great.

So just on this, because I've been wondering, this has been a really free flowing journey for me so far. Kind of like what do I feel like eating? I'm going to film it.

Totally.

And so I'm trying to be a little bit more intentional with my recipe choice at this stage and I was wondering, it's a fine, a fine line between something that I think would bring value on the long term and something that is going to do well on social media. They don't usually match that well.

Yep, yep.

And then Google.

Yeah. Like what I'm. Like my style of cooking is like, like I'm putting words of recipes that don't really exist, you know.

Right. That people aren't going to search.

Like the, the last one that you've seen on the blog is me trying to do something that people will recognize a little bit more and that didn't perform really well on social. So I'm wondering, do you think it's best to focus on recipes that are doing. And there's no right or wrong answer. I guess. But just have your opinion that are doing well on social or should I try to be a bit more intentional with SEO? Do I need to. I guess you could answer like niche out on those recipes that do really well for me or do I need to have a little bit of everything so when someone is in my side, they don't have to go somewhere else to find this piece of information.

They could be helpful, I would say. So I would say, like, another to do kind of a total reframe on it. It would kind of be like going to an artist and like an artist saying, like, which type of canvas should I use? Or like, should I do like, ceramics or should I do like, still photography? Like, they're all canvases and they're all mediums. And so I would say a lot of it comes down to because this. Because the world that we're living in is one where it's like personal businesses. It's not like a business where you're producing widgets. A huge consideration is like your own ability to continually show up every day and create content for 10 years. And the different paths to do that are there's, you know, not infinite, but like, there's a lot of different paths. The people that I see doing really well in the world of search generally are people who bend towards, like, process maybe are a little bit technical, not scientific necessarily, but they're going to be people who love to get into a keyword researching tool. They love to, like, spend time analyzing opportunities. They're also really great at the craft of cooking. But generally speaking, there are going to be people who are like, technical forward and interested in that world versus people who are charismatic and like to get in front of a camera and record and like, have a recipe that they feel inspired to share. Like, that would be Lindsay. Like, that's the category that she creates in. She's maybe collectively in her life, spent six hours in a keyword research tool. Like, she just. It's not something that she does because if she did, she would only create content for like six months. And then she'd be like, I really don't like this. And so how she's creating content is similar. It's like, what is something that I'm excited about. She's aware of, like, general trends and what's happening and is creating content around that, but it's not from like scientific analysis approach. And so I think as you think of your content creation process, I think what you need to find is on the spectrum of like, life giving versus life taking, or energy giving versus energy taking. Where do you fall on that spectrum as a creator now one of the opportunities that you have is like, Maybe you have 10 pieces of content and you're like, these are all kind of similar things that I'm looking at, I'm kind of inspired by these. And then you pass that off to Cam, who then Cam, maybe you like that technical element a little bit more. You can do some keyword research. You can look and say like, hey, this one makes sense. But maybe we worded a little bit differently. Here's how we should word it. And this feels like it's the best opportunity for us from a search perspective. And you could even call it something different on social than you do on the blog, but that's actually a pretty good idea. There's all different versions of, like, how you can use technical considerations around search to support your decision making. A lot of people initially go into it leading with keyword research, but I think you can also put it, like, as a second or third thing in your process and you can lead with inspiration and then refine with keyword research. Because I think there are a lot of people and you might fall into this camp who feel like it's soul sucking to, like, find that there's an opportunity to have, like, you know, whatever the recipe might be. And then they're not super inspired to make it, but they feel like there's an SEO opportunity. So then you do it, but it's like not something you want to make, but for other people. They love that idea.

So Sarah loves the challenge. I think that would actually help if you like.

I like, I do like a challenge. If you come and you'll tell me.

We have like a Gordon Ramsay show.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.

Run to the thing and get the ingredients.

Yeah. And if that's you, it's like, I think the point is, like, understand all the tools available and then use them within the context of how you as a creator are best going to be able to create. Like, and you can draw it back to the artist analogy. It's like one artist is going to use a marker different than another artist or a paintbrush or, you know, whatever it might be. But they still all have the same tool set. They're just using it in a way that is best aligned with, like, how they create. So it's a little bit of a non answer, but I think it's so dependent on the individual.

I think it was a great answer. Thank you.

Yeah. Before we continue, let's take a moment to hear from our sponsors. This episode is sponsored by Raptive. You may be like the many other food blogger pro members and podcast listeners who are working towards increasing their traffic to be able to apply to an ad network, Raptive, which is formally ad thrive for instance requires a minimum of 100,000 page views and brand safe content to join the community. These qualifiers attract premium advertisers and ensure creators like you benefit from Raptive's expansive solutions and services. But if you're not quite there yet and you want to be, Raptive can still help Raptive put together a comprehensive email series. It's 11 emails in total that will help you optimize your content, understand your audience, grow your email list, and grow your traffic. To help you reach your ad network goals. Pinch of Yum works with Raptive to bring in passive income. Each month the ads show up on each Pinch of Yum post, and when that ad loads on someone's screen or somebody interacts with that ad, Pinch of Yum earns money. So more page views equals more money and it can really add up over time. That's why so many Food Blogger Pro community members are interested in getting their page view numbers up so that they'll be able to apply to an ad network and make money on display ads. So if you're in the same boat and are interested in getting some traffic tips delivered to you for free, head to foodbloggerpro.com Raptive the 11 weekly emails you'll receive are designed for creators who have a working knowledge of SEO, keyword research and email lists, but haven't yet been able to crack that hundred thousand page view mark. Go to foodbloggerpro.com Raptive to opt into this free newsletter series. Thanks again to Raptive for sponsoring this episode. The other thing that I would say that's important to do on your site is to have a compelling and you have this within the sidebar. But to really be thinking strategically about email and to have a compelling even on the homepage, I think it would probably be worth it to have a compelling like email signup offer. And the reason is because email is going to become more important when third party cookies go away. So I don't know how aware of you are in the industry or for anybody watching, like there's a big pivot that's coming where Google Chrome is going to be removing third party cookies, which means that advertising on Google Chrome is going to be less effective. The way to combat that is to have first party data and first party data. The best example of that is an email address. And what you do is in your case working with Raptive, you include an additional snippet of code which Raptive will supply to you and you include that code in your emails. And then anytime that somebody clicks to Go over to your site, it's going to be able to identify them and they are going to be able to advertise more effectively for that person. So you'll be able to earn more. So just to really be thinking strategically about email. And that could be email on the site, but it could also be email within social, like occasionally having a call to action within Instagram to say, hey, if you want this recipe, sign up here and I'll send it to you via email or whatever you can do. To think strategically about having email signups is going to benefit you down the line as well.

I think for a certain meal plan or free book is a good one.

Yeah, yeah.

We have an ebook in our link tree or in our link page.

It needs to be updated.

Yeah. But we definitely should do that on our website too. Yep.

And, and I think, you know, we're thinking about this with Picture Van. Like the closer you can get to having the email sign up be to the actual piece of content, the better. So like, you know, if you have, you know, Mediterranean pasta, like the offer being the top three Mediterranean recipes, top five, you know, download, sign up here to get the top five meta train. Like the, the closer you can get to the content, I think the higher conversion that you're going to have. It's hard to do when you're first starting out because it's like you just need to get something up. And the best thing to get up, like you talked about is kind of something that's like, okay, this is, you know, highlights the best recipes that you have or you know, plant based breakfasts in this case. Like, that's awesome. I think that's a great place to start.

And then this was like what we came up with last year because we just really wanted to have something out because everything was buzzing. We were like, we're not getting the email address. It's a shame. But definitely can be refined to something more tailored to our current authoring.

Yeah.

Yep. Yeah, yep, that's great. Cool. So let's talk about the second one. Kind of in a similar category, but the back half of this would be interesting to talk about. So how can we increase track traffic from Google and search engines, which mostly comes from Instagram and social at this point. And then any advice on getting backlinks and improving domain authority? So any additional context around that one?

Well, right now most of our traffic's coming from Instagram and Facebook and then there's direct, which I'm not really sure where that's coming from.

Yeah, I think It'd be like people just typing in the URL and coming to it. Or maybe a bookmark. Yeah.

Okay, cool. And then. Yeah, so most of it's coming from social media and I've seen like in. In raptive. You can see. I heard you talk about this how Pinterest have such a really high RPM and our.

But our views are quite low or.

Our outbound clicks from Pinterest are quite low. So I'm interested in that too.

Yeah.

Because Google obviously seems a lot harder.

To row and yeah, totally. It's like hard until it's not like you do a bunch of work, you really hustle and then slowly over time, what you'll start to see is like stuff will get picked up, but it is super competitive and there's a lot of, you know, what is this? Well, I tell us specifically what this looks like.

How long do I have?

I think it depends on how, what type of keywords you're going after. Like if you're going after long tail pieces of content and you're producing a lot of that content, it's going to be shorter. If you're going after long, like shorter keywords that have a higher volume, that's going to be longer. So I think it really depends on your strategy as it relates to the type of content that you're producing and what you're trying to go after. So like, you know, an example being, I'm just gonna try this real quick just to see. So high protein vegan, marry me pasta. Like you rank number one for that, right? So like that's great. How many people are searching for that exact term? Probably not many. So, so that's an example of like you've your site and it looks great. You have an image in there. You know, there's the links down below. I'll just share my screen here so you can see what I'm seeing. Um, like that's, that's awesome. And it's like you've ranked well for that. Now the question is like if you remove high protein and it's just vegan, marry me pasta. Like suddenly that now looks different. You're still in the top five. Like, so that's great. Now it's like you remove vegan and it's just Mary me pasta. Like, okay, that now looks very different. And so what you can see is like the idea is as you start to do keyword research, you, you kind of start, it's like a snowball. You start with those long tail little pieces of content and then you're like, hey, maybe there's this like, shorter keyword that has a little bit more traffic that we can go after. And then you kind of build on that over time. And then eventually you'll get to the point where you can start to have some of those shorter keywords with higher volume that you can start to get after in terms of like, timeline for that. There's so many variables. Like, even just how many people are searching for a thing, like, you know, the algorithm updates, like all of those different things. But if you stick with it and continue to produce really good content, can, like, look at the technical components. If you build out some of the community stuff, which we can talk about as well, and you kind of start to be a hub for people. Like, all of that will compound over time, but it does, it does take a long time. So the backlinks, you talked about backlinks and domain authority. I think what we've found, there'll be two camps of like, SEO people. One is like, you have strategies for backlinks. Like you have, you work with an agency and they look for people who have a broken link around Marry me pasta. And they follow up and they say, hey, I noticed you have a broken link. You should update it with this link, which isn't broken. Like a lot of intentional, you know, backlink building or, you know, reaching out and saying, like, I'll pay you $150 to include a backlink. That would all be in the category, especially the paying. Like, Google has outright said, like, you can't do that. If I don't know how they'd ever figure this out. If we figure this out, you would be like, you know, I don't know if you'd be delisted necessarily, but it's just like very much so frowned upon by Google. So we're in the camp of, like, how do you just think about what people would naturally link to and as much as possible create that type of content? And I think that is either just like outstanding content that people love and, and they come back to and they're like, hey, I made this. I really like this. This is super helpful. Maybe it's in a group of people who are trying to eat vegan and high protein as well, and they link to it. So just over time, naturally. I think there's also things that you can do where it's like community or like campaign type initiative. So instead of thinking about content in a, like, it's a blog post, you could think of it in the context of like a series or A campaign maybe. It's like you are doing something and you support a certain mission and you say, like, over these next 10 pieces of content, we're going to help support, like a food shelf in Sydney. And then you go on a morning news show and they feature it. Like, anything that kind of is unique or interesting, where you can bring people around what you're doing. That's when it gets outside of the world of, like, SEO hacks and more in just, like, human psychology. And naturally, what are people going to talk about, what are people going to think about, what are people going to share? What's interesting? And that's where. That's where you can lean into the social side of it. You can get people excited on social about a thing that you're doing. That would be where I would lean into it. You know, people also talk about, like, going on podcasts, but essentially what you're just trying to do is think about what's something that people would talk about and get excited about, rally around. That would be helpful. That would be unique. You kind of can put your marketing brain on. You can get really creative, because that's what the Internet is, is people sharing stuff, talking about things, interacting online. And the more that you can get into the kind of psyche of people by either, like, drama, which in our world doesn't really exist and wouldn't make sense, or, like, excitement or passion or novelty. That's where I would encourage you to think about kind of the world of backlink building.

Okay, cool.

Yeah. Which is.

We need to get you in the news somehow.

We do have some puppy shelter coming up, but I don't think that's gonna go in the news.

What is it that you have coming up?

I. I want to help raise fund for a puppy shelter, so I'm gonna.

Yeah, yeah.

Eggs With a friend of mine who's a baker.

And that's awesome. But I feel like that that's awesome. And that's an example of something that you could then talk about and share about. And, you know, you could share it on social and there might be people who pick it up because it's this really, like, fun, unique thing. And you could reach out to, you know, whoever would be willing to have you and, like, talk about it there. So it's a. It's kind of like pr. Like, how do you get in front of whether it's news agencies, other websites, by doing something fun and unique and novel. What's that?

We need to think big.

Think big. Yeah, Right. Sometimes it's like thinking local like we in the early stages, I called our like small town newspaper and was like, hey, Lindsay and I are both from the same hometown and we're working on a website together. This is like 12 years ago. And they sent out a reporter who like wrote an article for us in the local paper. So like, it's little stuff like that. And, and I think from that then you can say like, hey, you know, this small town newspaper did a feature. You could take that and say like the next level up, you could reach out to another newspaper and say, we're doing this thing. Hey, we're doing. My friend and I are partnering to raise money for a dog shelter and we're making like dog cakes and here's like the dogs eating the cakes. And people would love that. Like, you know, is. So I think you have to be the best version of backlink building. I think is creative, fun, outreach type work like that.

And that would be win, win.

That's my kind of attention. Yeah, it's my kind of things. So just like a very technical, quick question you mentioned before, authentic content, does that mean that we need to have internal or backlink or like link to our website or link to other things in every single post we make?

Yep. So it's just what you wouldn't want is what you wouldn't want a new piece of content to go out on your blog and to not have a link to that in any other pieces of content. So it's different than like a category page technically. It's different than like the homepage where it's linked to. Generally speaking, you want to have a web, you want, you know, the. There's the world Wide Web, which is like links everywhere, but you want to have like a mini web on your website, which is like all of the content linking to itself. So like on a, you know, the marry me pasta, maybe there's another post that you have or another page and you'd want to say, hey, you might also be interested in this pasta if you want something that's a little bit quicker to make or something like that.

So sorry.

It's interlinking the actual content within itself.

That makes a lot of sense. Thank you. That's something we're not doing. And do you think like, so me writing. That's something I keep pushing. But for example, a nutrition article to have on the website would help both with my branding, position me better as a nutritionist. And I could link that to pretty much every single pieces of content that we're making. Like this is high in Iron. Hey, check this blog to check this article for my best tips on iron on a plant based diet.

Yeah, I think. And one of the ways you could think of that is like hub and spoke. So in the world of content you think of like, what is the hub? Like if you imagine a wheel, what is the hub? And then what are the things coming off of that hub? You know, a category page is kind of that. But you could also create a post in and of itself that's helpful and interesting for people that then links out to those other resources that you have. So like maybe you create a post and it's about like the importance of eating high protein. And I apologize for using that as the example, but it's a good one. I'll just keep coming back to it. The ex. The. The importance of eating high protein when on a vegan diet. And it could be like a nutritionist perspective on why that's important. And within that piece of content then you can naturally be linking out to other places on your site that highlights why that's an important thing to do or recipes or whatever it might be. So yeah, I would say it's like it positions you and your expertise around nutrition. Yeah. So I think that would be, I think it'd be super smart to do that.

Thank you so much.

Yep. Last question is kind of a high level one. Any advice on what we should focus on and prioritize in our blog and overall business to increase revenue? So what, what I heard you saying in the beginning is like awesome and specifically around thinking strategically around increasing some of the like passive, semi passive income from the blog itself. But then also starting to think about what does it look like to have a community, what does it look like to have products? Like that's where I think you can really start to be smart about content. And there, there's an interview that I did with Nathan Barry. He's the CEO of email service provider Convertkit and he had this series that he did called the Billion Dollar Creator. And his whole premise with that is creators are underselling themselves by just doing advertising on their blog and sponsored content. Because the real way to capture, fully capture the value that you are creating is to have an accompanying product or business that you are selling to your audience. And so in it could be information. Like it could be a product, it could be a course, you know, it could be a community. Like maybe it's helping people think or like helping people start to eat vegan if they're just starting out or you know, you, you know, your Audience better, what it would be. But essentially thinking about what are the things that you could offer your audience that would be like fully capturing the value of what you're creating versus, you know, a brand pays you $15,000 to do a sponsored post. The reason they're doing that is because it's probably worth 30, 40, 50,000 to them. But if it's just you doing that, like if you're selling your own product, that's where it starts to get really magical. I was having a conversation at a conference recently with somebody who started and has built a community, like a gardening community. And he was saying they operate their content at break even, so they maybe make a million dollars, they spend a million on it because they create tens of millions from a product that they're selling. In their case, it's like, you know, plant products that they're selling to people and that's what's allowed them to have a business that's worth tens of millions, you know, as opposed to a business that's worth maybe multiple millions, which is still awesome and impressive and like amazing. So, you know, as you think about long term, what that looks like, I don't think there's anything wrong with like building up a following and monetizing via ads and sponsor content and you can create a great life and a great business. I think that if, depending on the degree to which you want to fast track that and really think strategically about revenue or you know, in your case, when you talk about prioritizing on the blog and the overall business to increase revenue, what I would encourage you to think about when you're in that space is to say, hey, what would it look like to create either a brand within the context of your current brand, like that is products, or you know, the example is Primal Kitchen, which do you guys have Primal Kitchen products in? I don't know if we do.

I've heard of it.

Yeah. Okay. You know, that was created out of somebody who had a keto blog and then sold it for like a ridiculous amount of money, not for the blog, but for the brand itself. So that's where I feel like for somebody who has the things that you, you have a passion and an expertise in a certain subject momentum with growing a following, like the skills and expertise you need to like create video and content online. Like you guys have proven that. And an industry trend that's going up, like plant based vegan eating to me, where it gets really exciting and if I were to place a bet on like a super successful like tens of millions of dollars outcome down the road. My bet would be around product accompanying content, which you use to sell the product. Like, that's, I think, thinking of revenue optimization kind of down the line. Also what you have going is great. And if you just continue to do what you're doing and think about like a cookbook is an example of a product strategically selling the cookbook, maybe working with brands. I know you said you weren't super interested in that, but like working with brands that are aligned and then just continually growing the traffic to your site over time, you'll still have like a great business. It's just takes longer to build momentum in the world of content to a point where it gets to be, you know, a significant amount, but. But you'll get there if you keep at it.

So I'm inspired.

Yeah, me too. I wrote down all of your question. I'm gonna have a little journaling session after this.

Great. Yeah.

What do I want? What does this look like? Yeah, just when you mean product, do. Do you mean physical product or digital product?

Which one would you prefer to do.

If you had to do one today?

I mean, I think in your position, I would start with digital because I think the. You already. It's just repackaging a way that you're already producing content, which is video, and people know you. I think you could, if you were really. So I did a. There was a. I think it was. It was something within the community where we were talking about product creation, and it was Nisha from Rainbow Plant Life. So it's one of those that she recently did. It was maybe on the podcast or if not in the podcast, it was within the Food Blogger Pro community. And she talked about how they. She spent like six months or something like that just getting on calls with some of her followers in order to understand what it was that they needed. And in the world of software, they'd call it product development. Like, you're developing ideas around what the need is, and then you're using that to inform what you end up creating. If you wanted to, like, dive deep into that world, there's a book called Lean Startup, which is again, in the world of software, but the idea is kind of similar. And. But the basic idea is, like, a lot of people, like, in the world of software, they go and they're like, I have a really good idea. And then they work on it for two years and then they launch it and they're like, oh, this wasn't actually a problem for anybody. And so in our world, you know, it's like, you think that there's a digital course that people need, and you kind of go into a lab and you record for a year and you launch. And people are like, I don't really need that. And so the important step in that stage is like, getting to know what people actually need. So, like, it's a lot of getting on calls and asking questions and, and it's awesome for people who follow you because they want to meet you and interact with you and, and then using that to say, hey, this is kind of a theme that we see could even be like a type form survey that you send out. So I think in your case, probably what's easiest is to kind of like stair step up. Like, okay, there's sponsored content, there's ad revenue, and then there's a digital product. And you can sell people on a transformation, how to have, like, you know, be healthy, successful, high energy and still eat vegan. And then from there you could start to think about, well, and you'll have a cookbook, which is a product, like, to think strategically about selling that. And then I think the opportunity is like, what's above that? Like, and, and it might be packaged goods, it might be, you know, certain, like, kitchen things. I don't know, like, what it is. At that point you would know better. That's, I think, where it gets really interesting because then you have like a accompanying business sitting next to it that can grow and scale in a different way. That's probably, I don't know, a three, four, five year thing as you build up these other things or not. Like, maybe you get into it and you're like, super excited about something. But the digital product stuff, I feel like, can be shorter term as well as the cookbook can be shorter term. And I feel like that is a step along the way to get you there. So you had one other thought and I have time, if you have time to just talk through, like, what it's like to work on a thing together. Do you want to. Do you want to hit that as kind of the last question or what did that look like?

Oh, yeah, I would love that. Well, thank you so much for your. Your extra time. Really appreciate it.

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

I work on this together full time. Obviously. We, we've been together for almost 10 years now.

Yeah.

And because I know you and Lindsay have built this incredible business and you have a family and everything. So I guess I just wanted your insight on how, how does that look like for you? And do you, do you manage to disconnect from the business? Sometimes. Do we have to disconnect from the business? Sometimes. It's very fun to, you know.

Yeah. Right.

What did your lifestyle ideas on this?

Yeah. Do. Do you feel like you want to disconnect at this point?

Not really, no.

Yeah, not at all.

But it's more the, like, the feeling that we want things to be growing in the background while we go and, like, take a break, like, at the.

Beach for one day off.

Because we work pretty much, like, every day of the week. And you go to bed thinking about everything.

Yep.

We spent almost a year without taking a day off.

Yeah.

As we were sick. And we love it. But that's what you said before as well, around consistency and being able to keep creating across the year. I'm well aware that I cannot be doing this for the next five years, not taking a day off. And if I want to do this for 40 years.

Yeah. Right. I would say so. Lindsay and I, when we look back at the stage, because we're in a similar stage to what you were, we're super nostalgic about it. Like, we loved that stage, and we just loved the idea of, like, working all the time and, like, always having it on our mind. And, like, it was. It was great. And so I would say if you're in that stage, like, awesome, like, lean into it and, like, capture that. And because there is something about. There's this book called Big Magic, Lindsay. I've listened to it. I think Lindsay read it, and I think it's in this book where she talks about this idea of the muse and the muse. It's a little bit, like, almost like, spiritual, and you can take it for what you want. But she talks about the muse visiting you, and she's like, I think it's in Big Patrick. But idea being, if the muse visits you and you don't honor it, then it kind of moves on to the next person who will honor the muse. And the muse being, like, an idea, a passion, an interest. So I think as long as you feel like every day you're excited to get up and work on the thing and get after it. Awesome. I think that's great. I think to a great degree, Lindsay and I are still in that stage. We just have more competing for our attention now with, you know, our girls at five and three. And so what we've had to do is just say, like, we're going to intentionally draw these lines in service of, you know, 10 years from now, 15 years from now, not looking back and being like, shoot. Like, we really Missed this, like, charming season of life. But one of the reasons we are able to do that is because we probably compressed like, 10 years of work into five years. And now what we're doing is we're kind of taking advantage of some of the flexibility of those investments that we made in terms of time into the business to allow for more flexibility. I think we could be growing more or quicker if we were each working twice as much. But we're just in a season where that sacrifice feels different. Like, if we're going to trade an evening now, the cost of that is inherently more than it was seven years ago. And so we're just more careful with that. But I think if you. If you're enjoying it and love it, like, it's awesome. Like, what a gift to be able to do that and to be able to do it together. Like, it's a fun thing to talk about. And, like, some couples don't have a lot of stuff to talk about and you guys do, which is great. We're like the reverse.

We spend so much time together. At the end of the day, we, like, pull out the laptop and put on a show to watch.

Yeah, totally, totally. Let's just like, not talk about anything for a little bit. The other thing that I think maybe surprises people with, like, how Lindsay and I work is we. We kind of. It's kind of like we have our different departments within our day to day, and we act almost as like consultants to each other for the things that we're working on. I think that was less intentional than it was just lucky. Like, and. And I don't know what degree, like, you kind of have the division of labor with what you're working on, but it seems maybe a little bit similar where, yeah, like, I kind of know the stuff I'm working on. Lindsay knows the stuff she's working on. Like, I. At this point, it's like, I don't know when a pinch of young blog post is going out. She doesn't know who's being interviewed on the podcast next. But I am, like, looking at, like, search issues that come up and working with the team to, like, fix those. So I think part of it too is just naturally over time. I know, like, if I'm stepping on Lindsay's toes, like, if I've stepped on her toes enough, then eventually I'm like, okay, I know that this thing here is going to be stepping on her toes, and I can't even think of an example of what that would be. But I think both of you being like, you know, having a high social eq, like, you start to realize what makes sense to collaborate on versus just let somebody work on independently. And over time and probably to some degree, you already know what that looks like. But, yeah, it's. I mean, it's a great joy to be able to work together and also sometimes difficult and. But I think it's made us better in the long run for it, like, because we have to communicate well and be clear and, like, open on how we're working with stuff. So. Yeah, that's.

Yeah, we have our own departments pretty much.

Yeah. Which is great.

I think it's perfect.

Yeah. I think I trust his judgment 100%.

And I don't have to think about the recipes at all. Yeah, I just get fed all day and.

Yeah, exactly. It's a great job if you can find it. That's awesome. Any other last questions to wrap it up?

Maybe because we're considering community down the line, probably like a year or so away.

Yep.

And you've built Food Blogger Pro. Maybe if you could give any advice on that. Like, what's the.

Yep.

What's the system? The best system for doing that.

Yeah, absolutely. So I think, you know, the. With a community, there's a ton of different ways to approach it. I think it's super smart to think about doing it. Just in general. There are. This isn't exactly community, but I know creators, food creators, who kind of have a free community. And, like, what they do is they curate a group of people who join them. Maybe it's on a Facebook group. Maybe it's like, you know, on a membership platform like Circle, and that's what they use as kind of their community. There could be a community that's like community Forward and then like education in the background. Or there could be. I think this is Food Blogger Pro, kind of the education Forward with like a community component in the background. So part of it would just depend on what your approach would want to be like. I went through a course, and the course was called Pillars of Productivity. It's by this author and creator. His name is Tiago Forte. It was great. It was like six video lessons that were 20 to 30 minutes long, and then there was a community element, and it was on Circle, like a platform. But, like, the reason I signed up was to go through the education and then if you had some questions along the way, you'd ask in the community area. But you can also take the approach of saying, hey, we want to really develop a group of kind of our raving fans. Like the people who are going to be the number one most interested people in what we're doing and really curate that. We kind of experimented with that a little bit with Pinch of Yam. We had what was called a VIP group, which was a Facebook group. We went to that group with questions of like, which logo do you like better? Or hey, we're thinking of doing these three recipes. Which one do you think we should do? Like it just allows people to kind of participate. I think if it's going to be something that you are asking people to sign up and pay for, there usually has to be some transformational element. You're signing up like this and then after you go through then you're going to be this like, we're going to help you get from here to there and here's how we're going to help you do it. So you know, broadly speaking, I think Community, much like a website, could be used in multiple different instances for multiple different purposes. But I, but I think if the purpose is like to create recurring revenue like Food Blogger Pro, there has to be transformational component which usually means an educational component. Unless you're doing something like curating a group of seven people and you're going to have like a, you know, mastermind to help people become like to help people eat vegan or something like that. So like organizing and facilitating a group versus educating people on a thing to do. A couple of the platforms. So Circle is one, I think it's Circle. So this may be the site memberful, they're a podcast sponsor, but they're also a great company that allows you to spin up a membership site relatively easily. I would look into a pre existing solution versus trying to build something on top of WordPress and then just you know, do it as like community dot as opposed to, you know, trying to integrate it in with the site, like just setting it up on a separate URL. Oh really?

What would be the advantage of that? Just to make it easier to.

Well, the advantage of it is that you can use an entirely different system outside of WordPress to run the platform. So like, you know, in Google's case, like they have Gemini, which is their AI solution, but if you go to Gemini, it's gemini.google.com that's like an entirely different URL because it's an entirely different like technology stack. And so it's the difference between like as soon as you do the like, you are like community.plantbase.com that's a different, it's an entirely different, it's outside of WordPress, it's outside of your stack and it allows you to just run an entirely different technology versus, you know, plant based.com community as the, that would be, I think the. If it was me, that's the approach that, that I would take.

Okay, cool.

Thank you. That's very helpful.

Yeah. Well, hey, super fun to connect to hear about your story. You guys are doing really good work and continued success in, in building what you're building. So if there's ever anything we can do, reach out.

Thank you so much, so much. Thank you.

So grateful, so generous with your time and you know that we really appreciate you.

Hey there, this is Emily from the Food Blogger Pro team. Thank you so much for listening to to that episode of the Food Blogger Pro podcast. I wanted to take a minute and just ask that if you enjoyed this episode or any of our other many episodes of the Food Blogger Pro podcast that you share it. It means so much to us as a podcast. If you share episodes with your friends and family or if you are a food blogger or entrepreneur, if you could share em on social media or even in your email newsletters. It really helps us get the word out about our podcast and reach more listeners. Thanks again for listening. We really hope you enjoyed this episode and we'll see you back here next week.