How to Stop Relying on Traffic and Start Building a Business with Emily Baksa

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Hey there, this is Emily from the Food Blogger Pro team, and you are listening to the Food Blogger Pro podcast. This week on the podcast, we are welcoming Emily Baksa from Craveworthy Copy. Most food bloggers think about monetization in terms of ads, sponsored content, and affiliate marketing. But what if your content could do something more, actively nurturing your readers into buyers and building a business that doesn't depend entirely on traffic? In this day and age, I think this sounds particularly amazing. In this episode, Emily and Björk dig into the full picture of how to build a content ecosystem that converts from the copy on your homepage to your email opt-ins and the products and experiences you sell. They talk about why your email list is the single most powerful connection-building tool you have and why you should focus on solving problems and offering solutions for your audience. Burek also gets into how Pinch of Yum made the leap into selling meal plans and got comfortable with selling, and why starting simpler than you think you need to is almost always the right move. If the thought of selling a product makes you super uncomfortable, you won't want to miss this episode. Emily offers some really practical tips for getting over the psychological hurdle that many food creators who are used to giving away most of their content for free have when they start selling products. We hope this episode will give you some inspiration for diversifying your income. And without further ado, I'm just going to let Björk take it away.

Emily, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you, Björk. I'm excited to be here.

Yeah, you have a, you have a business in the world of food, uh, as many people do, uh, on this podcast. Yours is interesting though, in that, uh, you are partnering with food bloggers, food creators, uh, bringing some of your experience, both culinary That's one of the cool things about your experience is you have experience in the world of food in restaurants, but then also your experience, experience with words and marketing. Uh, we're going to be talking about products. How did all of those things come together? Let's get a little bit of background before we get into some of the practical steps.

Yeah, that's a good question and a long story that I'll try to keep succinct and interesting. I, yes, I had kind of this accidental fall into like the world of food service and hospitality, like literally just to like escape a torturous PR agency job.

Yeah. It's like, it wasn't so much you wanted to go somewhere, it's like you wanted to get out of somewhere.

Correct. And like, I was happy like to, to have another option. And, and the reason I had the option was 'cause I had done some work with the chef actually at the college where I went to school. So I had a good relationship with him and I enjoyed that experience. And I basically just like took the job so I could just do something else and, and get out because I had a background in education and in PR. And while like studying it was like great and felt really aligned, I, the actually practicing it at like a bottom of the totem pole, like agency world was just not quite for me. So I started working like for the, for literally the first time, like in a real kitchen, like scared to walk around and like not really sure how to like figure things out.

Asking, can I touch this knife?

Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, I don't want, not wanting to step in the wrong place and like run into the catering chef. That was a big adjustment for me. Um, but what ended up happening was over the course of several years and many iterations was the background that I had developed for myself in like PR and communications, like I had never really found a place to apply it. And I think that was part of my problem and why the, the job didn't really land for me at that time and why I felt lost, like, post-grad. But when I started working in this culinary universe, I— all of a sudden it was like an aha, like, oh my gosh, these skills that I, like, have, that I, like, studied and got a degree in, like, I want— I can put these to practice in this space because food touches so many of the things that I care about. I had also studied environmental policy and sustainability, so I was really kind of passionate in, like, food systems. And so learning how to exercise the skills I had in this industry became kind of, like, the way the accidental way that I found myself here. And ultimately, I had a lot of good experiences working in a lot of different places and a lot of different college university campuses. And but then I wanted to work for myself and get to choose who I was promoting and working with. So I took the experiences working with chefs and dietitians and, you know, brands and retailers and all those kind of partnerships, but then made a decision to work for myself so I could kind of continue to promote a lot of those same things, but get to be my own boss and choose exactly who in the food space I was collaborating with.

So were you doing PR-related work in the food world at it? So you had the, you had the PR job, didn't like that. Yeah. You started to do work within kitchens, uh, kind of culinary work on the ground in the kitchen. What, what was the transition from that to like bring your communications PR stuff back into it?

Yeah, so the roles within the, within the kitchens was like, was a marketing role. I was got it operating within the kitchen environment.

Got it.

Got it. And I had to learn learn how to speak the language and literally like navigate through the spaces and like understand who were the decision makers and how to get people to— like, I was, I was running events, I was running social media accounts, I was running websites, I was— it was kind of like an umbrella marketing kind of a role where you're kind of doing a little bit of everything. Sometimes marketing, like, gets— people don't always know how to define marketing, and it can get really, really broad. So that is kind of how I translated those like communications type skills into a food world.

That makes sense.

And then realized—

was it for the college or was it for like the food division within the college?

Yeah, for the, for the college or the, uh, the contracted food service operation at the college. Got it. So we were operating on college campuses. Um, yeah.

And I worked there. Multiple college campuses and you're like, so then were you creating content for other colleges that might hire this? Company to do the food services for them? Like, was that your audience?

Yeah, my— I was creating content for mostly students and prospective students. So I was—

here's why the food at this college is awesome.

Yeah. And here's how— I mean, college dining programs are huge recruitment tools.

Yeah.

Um, and they're very impressive. You, um, I think a lot of times, you know, our version, even like, I mean, I don't know what it was like when you went to school, but I guarantee it's way more glamorous now. It was way more glamorous than when I went school, right? Tons of events and experiences, and students are interested in food. Like, young, um, you know, like Gen Z students, like, really want food to be a part of their college experience. And so my role along with the teams was really like, how do we connect with them? How do we build trust and make their experience like a really great one? And part of that is in our messaging and how they're aware of things, keeping them in the loop, and also like building experiences for them. So I did that for like 6 or 7 years and with over a dozen campuses over a series of iterations and places. So it was a really great learning environment because I got to work with retail managers, chefs, dietitians, students, you know, people of all different ages, all under this umbrella of food, which is really cool.

And food and marketing food, really, like you were— you had food as the kind of medium, and you were taking that and figuring out how do we use this as a tool to kind of sell people on attending this school. Is that more or less?

Yeah, yeah, essentially we were— the dining program was— is a sales tool. So how are we supporting our campus partners in recruitment by making our dining program as great as possible and helping to sell the dining program to them through prospective students? And then when our students are there, retaining them and keeping them happy.

It's interesting, it's like, you know, what we're going talking about is products, how food creators can use products within their business. Really, I think you think of attending a school and it's like, it's a product and the product, the difference is like instead of maybe $25 or $50 or $300, the product is $25,000 or like $50,000 depending on the school. And so all of these different elements go into these considerations that students have and families have around what college they're going to end up on. So What did that look like for you after this 6 or 7 years to say, hey, I have this experience. I know now that I want to be entrepreneurial. I want to pick my own clients. I want to work with people that I'm excited to work with. How did you make that happen? Did somebody reach out to you and say, hey, can you, you're kind of good at this. Can you help me with it? And it organically came about, or was it more like, I know I want to do this and I'm going to make it happen?

Yeah, it was a little more of, I know I'm going to do this and I want to make it happen, but it was also highly motivated by COVID. You know, I think I'm a classic like entrepreneur during COVID Campus is literally shut down. So all of a sudden it was like, okay, what am I going to do for myself? And also I saw so much opportunity because a lot of times people who are very good at food, the, the, you know, who are, they're creatives, the people who are really that I connected with the most, like the real food people in these environments are so good at what they do and really not good at helping people understand it. So what I— because it's— they're different skills and also they work crazy jobs, so there's not really a lot of spare time for, for communicating, marketing, connecting. You're just kind of a little bit of a, um, trying to survive and make it happen, but you're making magic in the process, right? So I was watching all of this and being like, people need somebody like me to like help them become, you know, like known, to grow their, to grow their influence, to, to build connections with people, but, and they just don't have the time. And like somebody like me could really offer a valuable skillset. So I saw that opportunity for sure. And then just kind of got for almost forced into it cuz of COVID but was happy to do it anyways. And then as far as getting connected to creators, it was actually another kind of accidental thing, right? I love life is just a bunch of accidents.

Yeah.

That bring us places. Um, I kind of entered it thinking I would work more with like brands, consumer packaged good brands or, um, products. And then I got my first outreach from a food blogger who wanted help writing her blogs. Um, and she found me cuz my website was ranking well on SEO, so she was like, you must know a thing or two about SEO.

Was it ranking well for like food copywriting?

Yeah, I think I was, I think I was a top ranking site for food copywriter for the the first few years of my business, I had taken a course and I had kind of learned about how to launch an online business.

Great.

Um, which had helped me and I had the skill, like I was already doing a lot of the things, creating websites, writing content, like doing outreach, all those types of things that an entrepreneur would do, but I was doing them for somebody else. So all of a sudden I was kind of putting that energy into myself. And when she reached out, I was literally like, huh. I never thought of this before. And, and then we've literally worked together ever since.

Oh, that's so cool.

Yeah. So she helped me kind of understand that persona, this community that I'm now exclusively a part of. I work exclusively with food bloggers now, was very similar to the personas that I was witnessing and kind of identifying that need in the, the chefs and the other creatives and even like nutritionists and dietitians, like I mentioned in the spaces that I was used to collaborating with. Just in a different zone, like operating online, but very much having a very similar set of needs and very similar skills and struggling with that concept of like positioning themselves, marketing themselves, building connections online, um, versus building connections like on campus and in community, but very similar kind of experiences.

Yeah. Who, can you share who it was that you were working with?

Yeah, that's Jess Larson from Plays All Potter.

She's, she's in, she's in Minneapolis.

I know you guys are neighbors.

She's great. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and I saw her listed on your website, so that's kind of who I thought it might've been.

Nice.

Uh, that's awesome. Jess is great. So it sounds like you, the original thought, even like when you, what you were ranking for was copywriting, and that is obviously like a kind of division within the broader marketing. How do you think of what you're doing now? Like, uh, cuz in one sense it almost sounds like, I think of, I think his name was Brian who like came alongside the Beatles and was like, their manager and really help them as extremely talented musicians grow into what they were. And it sounds like a little bit of what you're saying is you're, you really like the idea of that coming along somebody's side, somebody who's a creative who isn't necessarily thinking about marketing and working to figure out how do we grow this business? How do we, uh, get you known? Uh, but then there's also copywriting, which is like a very specific kind of vertical., that's still very important, but more focused. So what is, what does your role look like now in how you partner and work with, uh, food bloggers or creators?

Yeah. Well, first of all, I always have had, had this thought that I think we create too many segments of like marketing communications, you know, like when you go to college, you can study like journalism or advertising or, um, PR, but like ultimately they operate best as a cohesive system. Like it, it, doesn't make sense to silo them. To me, it makes sense from an academic learning standpoint. You can't necessarily learn it all, but in the universe of just promoting yourself, you need a little bit of a, of a dash of everything, right? So when I think about myself as like a copywriter, part of the re— the reason why that is a service that, that I originally offered is because I was helping people literally write and create the content, because in a digital universe, that's what they kind of needed. But it is Copywriting is, I think sometimes, especially I notice a lot of creators confuse copy and content. So content writing is like, I'm just writing a blog post.

Yeah.

And it just sits there and, you know, and we're content creators. So that makes sense to me that they think that way. But the nuanced difference is, is copy is really more of like a strategic marketing tool because copy always encourages somebody to take a next step. It's, it's part of building a journey. So rather than just publishing something and then like never having it do anything again, you're intentionally trying to create content that weaves into itself and builds really like an ecosystem of places that people want to engage and stick around and stay. So for me, when I first started, I mean, and my, you know, some of my first requests were for blog writing. It was great. I loved writing them, but I always had this thought in my head of like, what are we doing here? Like, where are we trying to get people to go next? And how are we like fostering more connections? So over time, I really started to challenge my clients on some of that thought processes more. And that's how I've kind of, I think, evolved in the scope of my business to really more of like what I consider and, and often reference as like a digital marketing expert who's still off helps people do so through intentional writing and copy and content creation because we can't just rely on top of funnel, like visibility platforms anymore. We need to be thinking more about how do we take people one step deeper? How do we loop them into our world, continue to nurture a connection, and then ultimately like foster more trust. And I think nothing has really proved that more since the past few years with technology evolutions too. So that's like how I see the way that I support my like creative partners now is really building those deeper layers that keep people within your world and loyal to you. Um, because that's what's going to make creatives last and not get replaced by AI and whatever else is looming out there.

It's, I think of and reference a decent amount this idea of Kevin Kelly long ago had this article on the internet, on building something on the internet, which is A Thousand True Fans. And his, the whole premise is like, if you as a creative can find your 1,000 true fans, like you can create a sustainable, successful business. And I think translated practically, what does that look like? Well, maybe it looks like your 1,000 true fans are paying $100 a year to be a part of your community or for a product that you come out with 3 times a year. You know, you can play the numbers game with that pretty easily because it's an easy round number. My guess is what you saw, let me know if this is an example concretely of what was happening, which was people creating content and, um, really specific example. Hey, I'm going to go do some keyword research. I see there's an opportunity here for this blog post to rank. Now I'm going to make this recipe. I'm gonna document it. I'm gonna publish it. And, and that was where it ended. It was almost like, I'm gonna create this thing and I'm gonna try and get people to visit here through search or maybe social. And if they do that, that is success. And then I'm gonna go and do it again. And I'm gonna hope that people continue to come back because that is going to make me money from ads and rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat. Which works, uh, but also, uh, eventually, uh, everything changes and now it doesn't look the same as it did 5 years ago. And generally speaking, this isn't true for everybody, but like generally speaking, if you look across the board, search traffic is going down, not up. Uh, people are using different types of, uh, search, uh, social algorithms are changing. So with that in mind, then what? Like that piece that you talked about around taking the next step, bringing people in, uh, engaging with them on a deeper level. What does that practically look like?

Yeah, so I kind of like simplify like a basic journey for like a food content creator into like 3 steps. It's visibility content, connection content, and trust-building content. So you're totally right. What I was witnessing was everyone's spending 99% of their effort just trying to be seen and then rinsing and repeating and doing over again. So that's social, social media and blogs. Those are what I call like visibility content. You're just trying to be known. It's building awareness. And this is really like the basics of a marketing funnel too. If you want to get like really technical, this is top of funnel kind of content.

So yeah, top of funnel, if people can visualize it, it's like the widest, the most exposure is going to, for your business is going to be the free content that is on the platforms that people just see.

Yes. And you need that stuff because people have to, like, you have to generate awareness somehow.

You have to be discovered somehow.

Exactly. So you're always going to need that. But the next step in, in taking that awareness is really then having people, building more connection with people. So as we move down the funnel, it gets smaller, which means not everyone is going, that sees your social posts or sees your blog is going to want to enter an inner circle, but that's okay because that's just like the nature of how this funnel structure works. So to me, that ultimate like connection building tool is your email list. And that's why people have, I think, really acknowledged the value of email in recent years. But again, when I started, like nobody was really emailing. Like you kind of had an email list maybe, but like you definitely weren't emailing regularly. You weren't making, most people weren't making any effort. You know, this was 5 years ago, weren't making any effort to really grow it besides like putting a little box on their website that says, get all my recipes. And so a few years ago, I think people started to really acknowledge like, oh, like actually this tool is really valuable because I can create that bridge between all the people who see me and then welcome them into a controlled channel where I can continue the conversation with them more directly and more consistently and more reliably. Um, so to me, email is definitely like And that's the value of email there. But then taking really, like, that's just you're nurturing people, you're built, you're fostering relationships. You're going from, I've seen you once to like, now I'm used to hearing from you regularly and I'm kind of getting to know you. But the next step further to me, like in a trust building standpoint, is then really asking people to go the extra mile with you, right? Which often comes. From paid products. And because nothing really symbolizes trust more than like, hey, I'm gonna like give you money for your expertise. Um, and when people get to that stage, like you have a really solid understanding of like, these people are, have, are loyal to you and you've built an element of authority and expertise. And that's where products can come into place, memberships, meal plans, courses, experiences. Like, um, these are kind of things that food content creators haven't really thought about because we've been so used to just giving everything away for free. But a lot of people are making this shift because we're realizing the value it brings from a trust-building standpoint and a revenue standpoint. And also, literally every other industry does this. Like, it is not a not-tested practice at all. Literally every other industry builds funnels that nurture readers into buyers and creates trust and community with people. So that's a lot of what like I am aiming to help more food content creators do because I think it's an enormously missed opportunity.

Yeah, that's great. Uh, two things I'd be interested in double-clicking on when you talked about kind of the progress, uh, or progression. Through visibility and then from visibility, a little bit more of like a higher touchpoint to be known from creator standpoint or creator to follower standpoint. And you mentioned email being really important. How do you get people to actually be on your email list? Like what are you seeing that is working well in a way that is, you know, sustainable, but also different than just putting a little box on your, post and hoping that people sign up for it?

Yeah. Um, I think it, it comes down to like, uh, one core thing is you have to offer something helpful in exchange for their contact information. I, I, um, you wanna reward people for joining and like really make it feel worth their while. And people aren't really gonna be motivated to join without something in return. That's just like, we're all selfish and that's okay. You know, like we're motivated by our own advantages. Um, So, um, that's where like opt, you know, opt-ins and lead magnets play a really big role is can you create something that's a little bit more specific that helps solve a solu— that offers a solution to people in your community that you know that they need and just give it to them in exchange for their email. You can do that through your website with like the box or the popup, but also a lot of people are doing that a lot more on social media now. Um, tools like Grocer's List makes this way easier. I was very excited. I'm a big Grocer's List fan because as a marketing person, I even, I met Ben at Tastemaker and I like had like a fangirl moment with him for like 30 seconds. I was like, thank you so much because like as a marketing person, this is game-changing. Like this is the automation that like we've all kind of missed. I really understand its value and that's great.

We, uh, We're— Grocer's List is a sponsor. We're happy to have him on the podcast. We've also invested in the company and so huge fans of Ben and what he's up to. The great thing about the product is that it's food specific. And so there's also DM tools that exist. ManyChat's another popular one. But, um, what's helpful anytime that you're like specific to an industry, the language, the way that people interact, all of that is baked in, so to speak, in a way that You can't with the huge, like, enterprise-type products. And so they do a great job with that. Can you talk about, and I think the, the point that's important with that is like it removes the friction around the tool side in order for you to then be able to focus on the, the product side of it. Not even like the paid product, but in this case, like the free product that you were giving in exchange for email, but it still has to be the tool itself isn't going to convince people to sign up. It's gonna remove the friction for you as you create a really compelling thing that your audience actually needs. So can you maybe give an example of things that you have seen? You don't have to be specific, but like, uh, that aren't actually super compelling or really helpful. And then maybe some examples of, you know, an opt-in or lead magnet, something that is really compelling that you're like, oh, they did a really good job of understanding what their readers or their audience needs.

Yeah, I think like in its most basic form, a not helpful thing is about you and a helpful thing is about your audience. I think that there's a strong tendency, obviously, because we're kind of in our own heads running our own businesses, to like position our, like ourselves almost as the offer. Like my, like top 20 recipes or my most viral cookie recipes or that kind of stuff, um, that can work, like if you have immense loyalty and trust, but if you are building that with people, that doesn't really offer much to them, right? You want to make the offer feel more like it's about who you're giving it to than who it's coming from. So, and that's just often the same thing. It can be the same thing, just kind of positioned differently.

Um, I think about within the context of Food Blogger Pro even. You know, saying my top 10 learnings from the past year versus how to grow your blog in the year ahead. And it's like, both are, it's not like one is bad. It's just one is more compelling because it's within the context of a problem solution that somebody who's looking at it is trying to make the decision. Do I want this? And my guess is the closer you get to somebody's problem and presenting a solution, the more likely they will be to be compelled to sign up for that.

Absolutely. Yeah. You want to be as helpful as possible. And I think we all have that innate desire. No, no, I've never met a food blogger who doesn't want to be helpful. Um, so, and I, but a lot of times it just requires more of an innate understanding in who your community is and who you're talking to, which is, can be surprisingly difficult for some people. Um, I think that when we've thought about really broad keywords and, you know, like social presence and big following and all these things, it's, it's created a lot of exposure, but sometimes it's made muddy waters. It's like we have to be a little bit more intentional on like, well, who's actually there? What do they need? What are they struggling with? How do I respond to them? And build that kind of understanding with people. But the pro as, as being a food content creator is a lot of you have loyal, loyal followings and communities that like some brands would absolutely kill for. And you have the ability to know and understand because a lot of them are in your corner. People are in your corner.

What do you mean by that?

You, a lot of food content creators have immense followings.

Sure.

Um, like large presence.

So people, large presence plus people who are like interested in the success of the creator. Is that what you mean by in their corner?

Yeah. Yeah. And like really, cuz human to human connection is so much more powerful than like brand to human connection.

And therefore are willing to interact and like give you information. Is that what you, is that—

I think so.

Is that where you're going with that?

Yeah. It, in my experience, interact and like if you are trying to build more offers, resources, services to them, respond, you know? Yeah. And engage. That's definitely what I've witnessed with people. You know, a lot of my clients have like fans who are like their regulars, you know, like, oh, that's Susie. She's been with us since the beginning, you know, like still comments on Instagram Reels. And it's like, that is such a unique thing I think is really special.

So a little bit more on that. How do you, uh, do you have some examples of like what that deliverable actually looks like? So for somebody who, uh, conceptually, I think a really great takeaway is think about them, not you. So how are you going to help your audience? What's going to be most helpful for them? I think within the context of that idea, um, figuring out ways to actually ask surveys, even if it's like within Instagram polling people and asking, you know, what's the number one thing you struggle with? What's the thing you'd be most interested in? If you could have magic wand and could fix something, what would you fix? Like gathering that type of information and then framing it up in a way where it's like, hey, how do I, how is this going to be helpful for you? Kind of you-based language as opposed to me-based language. But then what does that look like in terms of an actual deliverable? Is that a PDF usually, uh, like a little mini site that you send people to? Um, what, what have you seen work best for the kind of lead magnet component?

Yeah, I mean, keep in mind it's free, so like it doesn't have to be, and it should not be complicated. That's always like the number one, like simpler the better. Uh, you don't need to build like an all-encompassing resource and offer it away for free. I always like just lean towards like what's the most conducive means of learning. Um, a lot of times people do give like PDFs. PDFs because people like to print things or offer them. I'm a big fan of like, depending on the content, like if it's a more complex kind of like educational moment, I love trickling information just out through an email series. I did, I've done like some lead magnets on how to like learning how to grill, like as a woman, taking the intimidation factor out of grilling. Putting that all in a PDF would kind of be like a lot, right? But instead you could break down key elements like how to light your grill. How to marinate meats, how to clean your grill, and trickle them into, you know, like 6 or 7 emails that people could keep saved in their inbox and continue and like click out to your site to learn more. So that's like one way I'm a big fan, but like really just like what, how can you help make the message come across as easy as possible? That's always what I think.

It's less of here's the best medium and more of here's the best, uh, what is the best medium for what you're trying to teach and yeah. If it's like, uh, you know, my favorite kitchen utensils, it maybe is just like a list with links. If it's more complex, you know, similar to a college course, you're not going to cram all of it into a week. You spread it out, you trickle it out. So that is in service of connecting with people, helping people, letting people know that you have the, their best interest in mind. And eventually then as you work your way through the funnel, you get to a point where you say, hey, we've gotten to know each other. I've helped you out. Here's something that I think you might like and that you will, you would need to pay for though. Can you talk about like maybe some of the hesitations that you've seen people have when they come to that point? Because I think, yeah. We're really great at doing free blog posts and pumping out social media content and doing videos and sending emails. Now we're doing more of that, but then it's like sending emails and asking somebody to buy something. Oh man, that feels different.

Yeah.

Is, are people not going to like me? Is my audience going to be mad? My guess is that those are some of the things that you've seen or heard people talk about. Anything that you could distill it down to kind of some common themes that you've seen?

Yeah, no, this is a huge, like, mindset hurdle. And it, and it really just stems from, it's not really the way our industry has been built, but just because it hasn't been built that way doesn't mean it's wrong. I like, I want to remind people that like, this is actually a very natural pathway for pretty much every other industry out there. But at the same time, that doesn't dismiss that it can feel a little bit challenging. I think I've helped many different creators. Launch digital products, sell items directly to their audience. And some of like the key themes that I noticed people struggle with are definitely ones that would feel, feel relatable to anyone listening here too. It's this concept of asking for money is greedy. You're gonna all of a sudden, I'm gonna not sound like myself and I'm gonna sound like a pushy marketing person and I hate marketing.

Yeah.

And I hate marketing. So why would I do that? Yeah. Um, and it's going to turn people off, you know, compromising my identity, right? Like there's this kind of identity crisis that comes from this moment, which is totally fair. I think where a lot of people get through it is they just start to understand that selling is actually just another form of helping. And it's an opportunity to offer more in-depth information without sacrificing yourself. Because as, as creators, we tend to give away so much. I think it's totally fair, um, at this era of time when so many of us have been doing this for sometimes decades to really acknowledge like, I'm an expert with like valuable insights and, um, it's okay to ask to be properly compensated for that. And I can do that in a way that's still very much in service to my audience, not just in like a self-serving way.

Yeah.

Um, that's definitely. A really big one.

I think within that, one of the things that we think about, if ever we have something that we're selling, which we have a lot of different things that we sell, is making sure that we're always giving people the option to get out.

Like, yeah.

Hey, if you get this and you don't, you realize it's not for you. Our goal isn't to trick you. Like our goal is to help. And in order to do this sustainably as a business, we have to make money from it. You know, that applies in different contexts, but But we also don't want you to get into it and feel like you've been tricked by us, like marketing a thing, right? And then feel like, wait, this isn't for me. And so it's always been super helpful for us to say, hey, if this isn't for you, no matter what it is, software, meal plan, like we get it and no pressure. We want there to be zero consideration around like, am I gonna buy this? And then feel like it's not a good fit. Right. If, if, if you do, and it's very rare that that happens, but if you do, just let us know and like we'll refund your money. And that's been a nice, mental escape hatch for us.

Yeah.

In selling things, uh, to reassure people, you know, we're not trying to trick you into buying a thing only for you to realize that you don't want that thing, but not have a way to get your money back. And so, um, that's been super helpful for us.

Totally. When you guys like made, cuz I know you guys sell meal plans, you were, you were one of the Pinch of Yum was one of the first people I really saw going for this and it made me happy cuz I was just 'cause so many people look up to you guys. So, I think people witnessing you making this leap felt really impactful for the industry and validating for me.

Yeah.

Um, but like when you made that decision, like, did you grapple with that kind of feeling of like, oh my God, like how do we go from selling?

Yeah.

Like, did that, was that, was there a struggle there until you sat down?

Um, a little bit. I think, um, I, I don't, I can't speak too much for Lindsay. Um, you know, I think most of it was on her and then Jenna does a great job, uh, on our team kind of helping with that as well. I think part of it is we had always kind of dabbled with selling certain things like way back in the day, we had a like food photography ebook that we sold and that was like 2 or 3 years after we started. So we were comfortable with it. We knew, um, you know, the process. I think the biggest thing was just making sure that., it was just a different standard. And, it was not so much of a feeling of pressure on the marketing side. It was more so a feeling of pressure around if we publish a recipe, we know that we can like jump in and just edit it and change an ingredient if like the salt is double of what it should be or something. But it's different when you are sending out a PDF. Uh, it's not quite like a cookbook. It's definitely not that, cuz you could just like send out another one if you needed to have an update. But we just, that's, I think what we felt more than anything was just wanting to make sure that if people are paying for a thing, that we know that the standard of what they're buying is extremely high quality. And you know, when it's free, the bar is pretty low. If somebody's like, I don't like this, then it's like, well, it's free. And if somebody is buying a thing and they're like, I don't like this, or this, you know, was low quality or whatever, that feels like a bigger issue. And so we just, in the process of creating meal plans and putting those together, um, just wanted to make sure that it was like a really high standard, that it wasn't like an afterthought. And what we found in the process is like, it does require a lot of time and, and discipline.

Meal plans for sure.

Yeah. And so, but it's also great. And like you said, you know, we get people all the time who reach out and are like, are you gonna do that again? That was super helpful. You know, and just tons of positive feedback on the way, along the way. And so for anybody who's thinking about doing a product, I think, you know, your point around it can help people is really true. And, uh, I think anybody who does that will see that and feel that. Uh, and as long as you kind of get over that psychological barrier, so, uh, what in terms of like a delivery mechanism, can you talk about that? Uh, how, like, if you do have something that you're thinking about that you're excited about, um, that you think you could offer for sale, you know, it's kind of blue ocean. You could do membership, you could do PDF, you could do, um, you know, there's all sorts of. Options for how you could, uh, like package content together and sell it. Do you have kind of a direction that, um, you'd point people to in terms of like where to start? You know, Member Kitchens is a sponsor and they help people, uh, put together your recipes and offer them at, uh, you know, for sale. And, um, what are your thoughts on kind of an entry-level step for people who are interested in starting to sell things?

Yeah, so my answer is kind of similar to your question about the lead magnets. Like, what— think more about what you're going to help people solve and then build the concept to whatever the most conducive learning format is. And here's a fun little hack too that really ties our whole conversation together really nicely. One of my favorite ways to help clients identify products for sale is actually looking at really high-performing lead magnets.

Sure.

And some of the most successful products I've helped people launch came directly from lead magnets turned product. So what and why does that work? Because lead magnets are basically, um, beta tests. It's like you've validated a concept for a deliverable, um, that people have expressed a lot of interest in. And what you can do is you can then take that bite-sized free thing add a lot more value and then, um, consider charging for it. And as you— so the format can be similar, it can evolve depending on, again, what that concept kind of is. But I think a lot of people tend to think PDF, you know, because we write blogs, we make— we tend to make lead magnets that are PDFs. Um, selling PDFs can work. I've seen, I've seen PDFs definitely sell. Um, that's been most of what I've helped clients launch ebooks, meal plans through PDF downloads. People just do, do still really like the tangible factor of that. They love people, customer, my customers just love printing things still. It doesn't, doesn't matter how technologically advanced, people love printing stuff, especially for cooking. Um, so there's definitely, um, I think a misunderstanding that PDFs aren't going to be profitable. They can be. I've seen them be profitable for sure. Um, but as you alluded to, there's so many more evolving formats of like platforms that allow you to communicate information now, like memberships, courses are, are obviously much more advanced. Um, I'm seeing people starting to sell like experiences, like trips together or like, um, you know, like, um, dinner outings for like local friends. Um, which is kind of cool. People are really dabbling in in some other unexpected ways. I was talking with someone who was like putting together more of like a dinner concept, like an included like playlist, you know, like Spotify playlists and stuff. There's, you can get really dynamic with it, but I always like to encourage people again, start simpler because it's much easier to bite that off and, and learn through the launching process without building something really, really complicated. Like going through the process of launching is, is a whole new skill set to learn, and that's totally okay. You don't need to make it more complicated by also trying to build like a 20-module course. Like, I would not recommend that right away, but you can create a really helpful meal plan PDF and, um, that helps solve a really important solution for your audience that you've identified. Learn the skill and then go from there. Um, it's just kind of a stepping stone into the world.

Yeah, it's, I think it's one of the things that we can sometimes get confused with, myself included, which is the, if we offer more content, that will be perceived as better. And I think one of the things that I need to constantly remind myself is actually oftentimes less is better if it helps people get the transition or transformation they want quicker. And, uh, that could mean 5 videos that walk people through the process of how to go from a chaotic kitchen to an organized kitchen. And if you're able to do that really succinctly in a way that people have success and they spend 25 minutes doing that, 5 minutes per video, that could be incredibly valuable and probably more valuable than if it was 100 5-minute videos, even though potentially it maybe seems like, oh, that's really good. Cause I have more content. And then people will think that this is better. It's actually like less is better often, but it's hard because it doesn't, it doesn't, it sometimes feels like, wait, if somebody pays for this, I want to give them more.

Yeah. But you're actually just overwhelming people and you're making your marketing message really murky. It is so much easier to communicate one transformation. Than 10 transformations. If you try to communicate 10 transformations in one sale, you're just gonna confuse people and they're gonna be like, this sounds like a lot. I'm a little overwhelmed.

Right?

You wanna make it sound easy. You wanna make it sound valuable. Um, and this is, I'm glad you mentioned this cuz I think this is very much a symptom of giving away content for free because I think we tend to think that, uh, we, we're just used to churning immense content out constantly for, and not asking anything of anyone from it, right?

Right.

And that's how I think we've built our sense of self-worth is like, I will provide as much information as possible. But I think the reframe that we really need right now is like, don't think in quantity, think in quality, and don't underestimate the value of convenience. Because if you can create something that is really easy to use and convenient and really brings people from A to B seamlessly, that is actually way more valuable than dumping a ton of stuff on them, right? When you really make an impact in people's lives in that regard, and that's what a product should do, you know, is, is it, um, the value of asking for money is comes more from you're, you're transforming someone with this, right? I always encourage my clients when we're thinking of concepts and ideas and is like, how, what are, how does somebody's life get better from this, right? Um, if we can't really clearly answer that question, it might not be the right topic here. Yeah. Right. We, we need to go back to make sure that that message is going to be so clear to understand because For me as a marketing— a marketer and a copywriter, I need to know that to help you promote that. Um, if that's not clear, then it's really hard for the potential buyer to understand that too.

Yeah, I think that, that piece was— that, that you just talked about, for me as a, you know, marketer and copywriter, uh, is the last piece that I'd be interested in talking about because there's a shift that's required with us as creators once we And I think this is really important as we think about the next 5 years. Yeah. Um, I've had multiple conversations about this, even just this week with different creators, but also our team as we pivot and shift from thinking about how do I get more traffic to how do I get more people who follow me who'd be interested in the things that I'm selling. Yeah. Um, and that's a shift because we are going from an talked about this before. It's, it, I don't think it's exactly clear, but, but I'll attempt to communicate it. We are going from, you know, marketing our content. Hey, check out this recipe, go visit this, uh, you know, this recipe's awesome. Go make it to being content marketers. We are creating content in order to market a thing. And so the, the comfortable thing for the majority of creators who listen to this podcast is marketing content, but now we need to shift and pivot and start to think about how is our content going to market our product? And that's a significant shift in mindset. How do you see people doing that well? And what are your recommendations for people to start to think about introducing some of that, like content marketing into their content rhythm?

Yeah. That's really good. You're on to something there.

Okay, I'll continue to workshop it.

Yeah, keep— yeah, you're getting there, workshopping it. Yeah, yeah. No, I think, um, I mean, like, honestly, marketing content too, even to go back from one tiny smidge step, some people struggle with even just that. So if you're— if that feels hard too, yes, this like mindset shift is difficult, I think, um, but it is the way of the future because content marketing, as in building content that intentionally creates stepping stones in a journey to build trust, which is what we were talking about earlier too, right? Um, is— requires intention. Um, it's an understanding of sequence. It's how are we going from one, um, pillars to the next? Like, how are we taking people through that journey? Um, and I think it's really just about, um, You have to have, like, it really requires a good understanding of not just who your audience is, but who you are. And I think that that is sometimes what, where that mindset shift feels really hard. Um, because sometimes I think people, I mean, I ask, I ask clients this question a lot, like, what are you, what are you known for? Not, not just like, what is your niche, but like, what, what makes you unique in this space? And people can answer, but a lot of the answers are similar.

Yeah.

I see a lot of the same, same answers. So I think this innate understanding of like, well, what content do I want to actually be known for and create has to come first and have a little bit of alignment in like the people you wanna attract. And then you use data to back it.

Do you have an example of that? Like what do you hear a lot? And then how could you drill down to get closer to something that's not what everybody else is saying?

Yeah. Um, well, like the most basic answer is, you know, like healthy recipes. I can't stand it when people tell me their niche is healthy recipes. I'm like, I don't consider that a niche. Yeah.

So then what would be?

So I, I, my, some of my follow-up questions to them are like, well, what is your definition of healthy? What do you, and, and that can be sometimes it's really clinical. It's really more like, nutrition-based. Um, sometimes it's more actually like abundance. It's like, to me, healthy is having a little bit of everything and like having no restrictions, you know. And, uh, which is kind of different, you know. But I do hear a lot of people say that because it's more of a healthier mindset than like a healthier intake of vitamins. And then I also often ask them, well, what, what do you, what are you not, right? Because sometimes that's almost the easiest, easier way to get to it. Um, within like a healthy category, it's like, do you like, are you a gluten-free expert? No.

Okay.

You know, or, you know, do you eat red meat? You know? Um, there's so many different versions of that kind of, and it's really about rooting into like, what are your own values as an individual? Not, whereas I think we've traditionally been creating content marketing content, as you said before, to keyword demands and the internet, what the internet is asking of us. And it's gotten us a little scattered. It's like, okay, if we stop like trying to satisfy everyone else and satisfy search engines, if you really just were making the things that you really wanted to make, the things that felt healthy to you and the things that you would want to show your family, like, what is that?

Yeah. Um, and, and the interesting thing with that is The discoverability piece, like we talked about at the top of the funnel, then probably shifts, which I think is naturally happening right now anyways. But it was almost like in a world where keyword research and ranking high worked well, and to, you know, there's still sites that get a ton of search traffic and, you know, make money from that. But I think this is more like forward-looking. And so if that's shifting, uh, then where will you get discovered? Where are people going to actually see your content? Where is it, you know, top of funnel? They might discover it via Google from doing keyword research. But I think my bet more so over the next 5 to 10 years is they're going to be discovering it on social platforms. And social platforms aren't keyword-driven. They are algorithmically driven. But in terms of the follow, like, does somebody sign up for your email list? Does somebody click to follow you? Which debates around how beneficial that is in like a content algorithm world as opposed to a social algorithm world. But assuming that's, you know, incrementally beneficial to get a follow, how are people making those decisions? I think almost always people are making those decisions based on whether that person is going to either be entertaining based on the type of entertainment that they want to see, uh, you know, educational based on the type of things that they want to learn or helpful based on the problems that they have. And in order to do that, you have to have a specific niche and a specific offering, which is why I think a lot of times you see success with certain platforms that have that really focused niche. An easy one right now is like high protein. So if you are a high protein creator, uh, meal plan, high protein, meal prep, high protein, and you have these like delicious meals that you're doing meal prep and it looks really good. People are trying to eat high protein. What's the likelihood that somebody's going to follow you? Probably pretty high because there's a lot of people who are interested in eating high protein. Because that's a wave that's like really prevalent right now. And so I think it's maybe just like an observation and permission for people to let go of this idea of, hey, I see this like opportunity to rank for a thing and narrow your focus in order to get to something that allows people to filter themselves in or out quickly in order then to sign up for an email list or to buy a product. So does that, do you see things in a similar way or does it resonate? Anything you'd push back on with that?

No, I agree with you. I think it's better. It's the classic, like, talk to everyone, you talk to nobody. And it's bet if people get so afraid that restricting themselves means they're going to limit themselves, and that's just because we're used to high volume, you know, right? But like what I have to remind people is Restricting is actually increasing quality. So like honing in your focus is going to make the people you connect with higher quality people. I would rather have you connect with less people who are actually more aligned with who you are than a ton of mixed bags, mixed, misaligned people because, um, then you're gonna have a really hard time trying to connect with that group because it's gonna be totally all over the place.

Yeah.

Um, And it's, and if you can instead be really more intentional about saying no to who doesn't belong here, like no hard feelings, it's not a big deal. Um, it's just like the, these people are more of my people and that's who I want to welcome into my little like content universe, who I want on my email list because those people are going to be more likely to buy a product from me because we're really aligned in values and interests and, um, I'm serving their needs directly. Um, so yes, totally. I, I would very much agree with that. I think that, um, it's just another bit of a, like, mental reframe and understanding that it's actually more to your benefit to be a little more specific.

Yeah, love that. I think it's super important for us to be talking about this stuff and thinking about it, especially as we think about what does it look like to have a creator-based business over the next 1, 2, 3, 4, 5+ years. Um, and so love that you're doing this work, Emily. If people want to connect with you and work with you, can you talk about how you are working with creators? Do you have like packages or is it like ongoing partnership? What does that look like?

Yeah, so, um, you can find my website emilybaxa.com. My last name is B-A-K-S-A, a little bit of a tricky one. And, um, yes, I help my clients in two different ways. I, um, one, a growing part of my business right now is coaching. So helping support people just like through a lot of these transitions and these strategic planning in their marketing plans, their marketing funnels, and like launching things. Um, so I have, um, like one-on-one, like one-hour coaching sessions that you can just book with me and we could jump in on together. And I also have a recurring like coaching subscription that people could join as well too if they want more like continuous support. Um, but I'm also available too, and I have some team members who help me to actually help you create some things as well. So I still have a bit of that, um, kind of like copy and execution part of my heart that I just can't let go, um, uh, because there's so much fun there. And that's when I really get to like know people's businesses. So, um, so those are kind of the two ways to, to collaborate, and we can always mix and match them a little bit too.

Cool, that's great. Emily, thanks so much for coming on, really appreciate it.

Yeah, thank you so much. It's fun to talk to another marketing nerd.

We can work out another time. Love it.

Yeah, sounds good. Thanks, Björk.

Hey there, this is Emily. Thank you so much for listening to that episode of the podcast. As always, if you enjoyed our interview with Emily, please take a moment to rate or review the episode or share it with your community. We'll be back next week with an interview with Josh Gale from the food blog, The Chef Out West. He is a relatively new content creator and has had huge success building his content business over the last year and is here to share all of his advice with you. We look forward to that interview, but in the meantime, hope you have a wonderful week.