Writing Standout Recipes and Navigating AI as a Food Creator

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Hey there, this is Emily from the Food Blogger Pro team. You just heard Bjork explain a little bit more about the Food Blogger Pro membership. And I wanted to pop in and let you know that our best sale of the year will be starting next week on Monday, December 2nd, Cyber Monday, and lasting through midnight on December 4th. As part of this sale, we will be offering $100 off an annual membership so you can get access to all of the incredible things inside of Food Blogger Pro membership. Our courses, Live Q and AS member forum tools, deals and discounts everything that Bjork mentioned for only $250 a year. In addition, we have an exclusive SEO workbook that you can get if you sign up to be a FoodBlogger Pro member during this sale. Just head to FoodBlockerPro.com cyber Monday 2024 to learn more about our membership and get access to our best sale of the year. We cannot wait to have you in the membership. Now let's get into this week's interview. This week on the podcast, Bjork is interviewing Raeanne Sarazan. She is the author of the book the Complete Recipe Writing Mastering Recipe Development, Writing, Testing, Nutrition Analysis and Food Styling. This book is over 400 pages filled with everything you need to know to develop and write a really good recipe. Ran argues that the quality of the recipe is what differentiates really successful food creators from the rest of the pack and she says that just because somebody can cook it doesn't mean they can write a recipe. In this interview, she walks listeners through the recipe development process and shares her tips for writing a user friendly recipe and discusses the importance of recipe testing. Bjork and Rayan also share their thoughts on artificially generated recipes and how food creators can use AI when developing recipes and writing content. The whole interview really is about how to differentiate yourself as a recipe creator and it's a good reminder that the fundamentals of recipe development are really, really critical to what we do as food creators. As a reminder, if you enjoy this episode, please share it with your followers on social media or email. We really appreciate it and without further ado, I'll let Bjork take it away.

Raeanne, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you Bjork for having me here today. I'm super excited.

Yeah, it's high fidelity. I can tell you're in the Midwest. There's no Internet delay here in Chicago. We're in the Twin Cities. This is going to be a great conversation. We're going to be talking all about recipes. Makes sense for the world that we are in and that we talk about, but also recipes as they relate to kind of digital platforms. We're going to be talking about AI, but before we get into that, what is your background? We're going to be talking about the book that you published, which is it's called the Complete Recipe Writing Guide and it really is complete. It's hundreds of pages about recipes. And for people who create content, like anybody who listens to this, they need to read books like this. It's kind of their, you know, textbook on how to approach recipes. But how did you get to the point where you could write hundreds of pages about recipes?

Yeah, like over 400 pages on one single topic. So, yeah, I. I'm a. Okay, so I'm Rayann Sarazin, and I know sometimes my heart, my name is a little difficult to pronounce. So I.

It again, you and I both.

And so I am a registered dietitian, nutritionist, and classically trained chef. And I've worked in the food industry in a variety of different roles and capacities for over 25 years. So I have worked in hospitals as a clinical dietitian. I've worked in restaurant kitchens as a cook. I have worked in food publishing as a food writer, editor, and test kitchen professional, and in different capacities in food companies, nonprofits, and healthcare organizations as a culinary nutrition consultant. And the thing that has been a common denominator throughout all these different roles has been the use of recipes in recipe content. And so that is sort of how my background came to be that made me of interest by the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, who's the publisher to be the author of this book.

That's great. So one of the things I like thinking about in the world of digital media is that a lot of what we're doing is creating, like, a digital version of the thing that we've always done. Like, an example is on a website, they talk about this idea, like, is the content above the fold? And it's like, well, what does above the fold mean? Well, it actually is talking about when you had a newspaper and you'd fold it and then you would, like, put it on the newspaper stand. It was really important for things to be above the fold because that's what people would see when they walk by. You know, in our world right now, they talk about a recipe card. And what is a recipe card? Well, a recipe card is like the digital version of, like, the literal card that you'd give somebody if you wrote down a recipe. I'm curious to hear your reflections on, you know, 25 years of being involved with recipes and the importance of recipes, sharing recipes, like documenting recipes. Well, what are. What are the things that you see as the through line that have continued through those 25 years? And then we're going to talk about things that are maybe different today than they would have been 20, 25 years ago.

So I guess the through line that I would see is that there's somebody always out there creating really good recipe content. And a long time ago, which, you know, you can say 25, 30 years ago, there were gatekeepers. And those gatekeepers kept only a certain type of person writing. And that could have been back then, food writers, test kitchen professionals, cookbook authors, home economists. They were the ones that were creating mostly good content, I would say, but not always. And so I think today the difference is that anybody can write a recipe, but I think it still holds true that you have to ask yourself, is what is produced today always good? And do they have what used to be done, which is copy editors and, you know, several lines of people editing? So, yeah, I mean, I mean, I guess the through line is I do think there's really good recipe content today, but I think it's because there is a lot of focus and importance to that creator on what the actual recipe, what. What it really is doing for their audience.

Yeah, so you have these people who have great recipes 20, 25 years ago that might have been like, my grandma or, you know, Lindsay's grandma, really loved cooking. And we have some of those recipes that are still such great recipes, but they wouldn't have necessarily been a publisher of recipes unless they knew somebody who is one of these gatekeepers, you know, a cookbook publisher or something like that, where they'd be able to then say, hey, you have a bank of enough of this that we think that, you know, we can invest in you in that scenario. There's also then going to be a team that, like, reviews the recipe, that does, like, testing of the recipes. One of the good things is with the Internet, like, anybody can share a thing. And so now you're able to get access to some of these recipes that maybe you wouldn't have been able to get access to 25 years ago. But with that reduced friction in publication, there's also the reality of, like, I could publish a recipe and that's not going to be good because, like, I'm not going to be able to produce a recipe like my wife Lindsay would. And so that. So as friction is reduced, like, output is increased, and then now the user maybe has to do a little bit more filtering of those recipes. Is that the downside of it? Or, you know, on the flip side, like, what are, what are some of the negatives of the change in the ability for kind of anybody to publish a recipe?

Well, I guess this is what I would like to be super clear on. I think that just because somebody can cook doesn't mean that they can write a recipe. And I think what is super clear on that is I've worked with a lot of incredibly well known chefs, super talented, creative people who can create something in the kitchen, but that's cooking or development, and then there's the actual translation of what their creation is onto the page, and that's the recipe. And I think that even if our grandmothers, which my grandmother owned a restaurant in Ottomwa, Iowa, and she was a fabulous cook, and I spent so much time trying to document and work with my brother, who's a filmmaker, to. To translate and watch her and put it onto the page to keep it for future generations. It's sort of like documenting your food heritage. But I think that what makes, you know, what differentiates really good people in their content, I think, is their recipes. Because there is like the entertainment, which you could tell me all about. And I get that. And there is the creative part. But to write a really good recipe, that recipe has to be written well. You know, there's the importance of testing the recipe, which, you know, no recipe could be written well if it's not tested. That's very clear to me on the recipes. I see. And yeah, I mean, I would, I would say that, you know, I think content was not always perfect back then or today, but it's the importance of understanding that cooking is different than writing.

Yeah, I think of, um, we have friends who live in Indianapolis, just recently interviewed them. I'm not sure when the episode's coming out. Their site's called A Couple Cooks. But one of the things we often talk about on the podcast is like, you, sometimes people will look to do a career change and their career change will be into, hey, I want to produce content online. Like, I want to figure out how to either grow a social following or grow a website in our world. It's within the realm of food. And one of the things we always talk about is, hey, look, look at what you were doing, even if it seems completely unrelated. And how can that benefit you? And I think of Alex and Sonia because they were worked within both of them. It was the same company, they were technical writers. And so it's not, you know, recipe documentation, but they understand or. And understood as they transitioned into this career, like how to write documentation around steps really well. And my guess is I haven't ever really talked to them specifically about it. But like, my guess is that probably served them well to have gone through the process of you know, a decade or however long it was of writing instructional information for people that get, I don't know what, like, some product and then have to, like, understand how to use it, to then apply that to the world of recipes and to give people really clear instructions to follow. So let's say somebody is really skilled at cooking and they're. That's kind of the artistry of it. It's. It feels like it's a little bit left brain, right brain, where then you kind of take some of that abstract. Almost like in music, you can have people who can, like, play music really well, like they can jazz or blues. But then. Then if you would be like, all right, now we're gonna, like, put that. You know, we're gonna. We're gonna document that. They'd be like, well, I don't. That's. That's not what I do. Like, that would.

Right.

I'm terrible. And it's not exactly the same, but I would imagine that to be true in the world of food a little bit as well. So how do you. If you are somebody who has that kind of right brain, you like to cook, you like, the process of, you know, coming up with a new recipe, how do you get that into a form that then is actually really helpful? So somebody in the music world could look at it and be like, hey, I understand what this is. Do you think people should try and be that? Should they try and do that, or does it make more sense to, like, bring somebody in who is good at that and let that person do it?

That's exactly what I was just going to say. I think what has changed in the food industry and food publishing is that there used to be segmented roles. You were, you know, a developer, you were a tester, you were a writer, editor, copy editor, you were the graphic design. You were, you know, the photographer or videographer. I think today it's sort of taking note of what you do well and where you should hire out for where you're not as good. And also using a book like mine as a resource, especially when you're starting out, because it's really hard to be able to afford to hire out people. And at least you can educate yourself, even in terms of the writing of the recipe, where it's true a lot of creative people can't translate and document to technical clearance. Succinct writing. Like, they'll take something like making a pie dough that's three paragraphs long, and I can edit it down to one paragraph that's more clear and Helpful to the end user, but I'd say you hire somebody to do it for you or you sort of learn and read some of the common things that you yourself need to know on how to write clearly. Like for an example, the cardinal rule of writing the recipe ingredients and the order that they are used in writing the directions in that same order of how they're used in the ingredient list. It seems so clear. But again, that's something that I'll get a recipe where they're out of order, they're missing ingredients. The use of divided ingredients is super unclear. The use of a description like a modifier in the ingredient list, where it would be something like canned or chopped, cooked, diced, the word is put into a place that makes it very confusing for the reader. And I know what that chef or that cook wants to say, but the end user could just be scratching their head wondering, wait, what am I supposed to do? Or what am I supposed to buy at the grocery store?

Yeah, so I think that's a great one and just a good reminder. I'm guessing a lot of people kind of have that in their mind as they're going through the recipe development. But like you have the list of instructions and then you have the list of ingredients, those are sort ordered by when they're used. And then the other thing that you said that I think is really valuable and it reminds me of the Mark Twain quote. Like, I didn't have time to write you a short letter, so I wrote you a long one instead. Yeah, I feel like sometimes that can happen to people just in general, like any instructions, but especially, you know, if there's a lot there and it feels like part of the hard work is removing the unnecessary information. Do you feel like that's another kind of core pillar of communication within a recipe?

Yeah, I mean, I think in general to write short is so much harder than to write long. And that goes for other type of writing and definitely for recipe writing. And I think to be clear is just it's hard today. I mean, first of all, we're all bouncing around all over the place and to actually sit down and actually think about how you're going to write something and actually give a visual and a time and do those indicators that really are helpful and as I say, to always write your recipe for the person who doesn't know how to cook. And the reason why I say that is that, you know, I know there's so many different ways that people can write a recipe. There's no exact one right way, but What I feel is important is, you know, the person who's going to improvise and not really follow your recipe and be that person at the end saying, oh, well, I use this instead of that, and I know this. And I would toss it in corn starch. It doesn't really matter because there's equally as number, a number of readers who are going to take it and really want to follow that recipe to the tea. They need to have their handheld. They need to really be able to be taken through it. And I feel like a successful recipe writer is going to write it. So that person is successful.

Yeah. To use the music analogy again, it's not like you're going to, like, leave a note out. It's like, no, you have to, like, document every note and it has to fit within the structure of, you know, whatever the key is. And so in the world of recipe, you know, we're kind of entering into this unique stage where we have forever people create recipes. Now we're kind of getting into a world where, like, maybe it's not a person that creates a recipe, maybe it's created by a machine. And I'm perpetually fascinated by AI Everybody who listens is aware of it. And there's this weird balance of, like.

Is this a threat?

Is this an opportunity? And there's all those classic examples of like, you know, there's a pizza recipe that was created by AI and it talks about, like, using glue as one of the steps. And it's like, okay, that's like, not good, obviously. And people like to talk about that.

Right, right, right, right.

But that will happen less and less over time. But I also think there will always be a place for, like, human created content. So, you know, you talk about writing this book, it was over a long period of time, years and years. And the period of time that you're writing it, AI kind of started to become a thing. What has that been like for you as you've come up against the world of artificially generated content and as it relates to recipes?

Okay, well, my first answer is, it took me almost five years to write this book. This book was peer reviewed by other professionals. Each chapter went out to anywhere from three to nine reviewers. And I interviewed, which I loved, because I love talking to people and getting the knowledge from their head and bringing it down into tips for the people who are going to go into a chapter and look. And I say that because I feel like so many great people out there who are very knowledgeable have so much knowledge in their head and I love to be able to get it out and be able to help that person who's reading and teach others. And I think that that was a very long process. But in this process and the reason why I led up to saying this long thing, I knew AI was coming out, I knew people at the end of when this book was published that that topic was starting to sort of churn but not really talked about like it is today. So AI is not talked about in my complete recipe writing guide. But, but I have in the revised version, in a revised version, the lead in well, okay, this is like with most people in the field, of course I've tried it myself and I have come up with, you know, asking very specific questions to things, asking for very specific author or content creators like give me Ina Garten's lentil soup recipe or give me your lentil soup recipe and probably the same things that everybody else is trying out. And I think that in a way it is a fast way for content creation. So I think it is a great assistant for any of us, whether we're just food writing, we're going to go give a presentation, we need a content outline, we need a short quick answer on the history of something food related. But as it relates to recipes, this is like, I think that it, it does work and maybe this is something that will morph and keep iterating into something that maybe even I'll use. But I don't know because I think what I feel like is missing even from Google, you know, asking chatgpt or lentil or gluten free muffin is that it's so dry, there's no voice, there's no person behind it. I have no idea. And I'm assuming it's not tested because I ask for who is the content creator, who's the author? And it says it's like an amalgam of whatever number of the best gluten free blueberry muffins or something. So I don't know. I do think it's going to be something that we have to embrace and something that I'm sure I will use in some way or form because I do use chat GBT for myself already for other purposes, not recipes. But I think that it's like it's has a very blurry line between fact and fiction. Where's the critical thinking, where's the voice? So I say use it maybe as a starting point, but it's not something that I'm using myself right now.

Yeah, it's, I guess I haven't thought about this but the key variable of testing and it feels like if you are going to do something that is the average of multiple recipes, like you aren't testing that. And it feels like in the world of recipes that's a really critical step is like the step of testing, you know, from start to end, was it successful? And it, you know, who knows kind of over time how it evolves. But it feels like that's one of the things that's a little bit of a moat in the world of recipe content. It's like one thing could be a little bit off, you know, salt. I remember in high school we made homemade ice cream where you like put it in the coffee tin and you roll it back and forth and we, it was like instead of teaspoons we read tablespoons. It was user error. It wasn't the recipe, it wasn't the copy editing. Yeah, but like that is an example. Like if that's just off a little bit, you'll be able to see that and taste that, you know. Whereas if it's like asking about some like, you know, tell me what price to earnings ratio means when you're investing in a stock. It's like, oh, it's going to be able to nail that really well.

Right.

So that, you know, that's interesting analysis. Have you found, you know that And I think your point about like the assistant makes a lot of sense. I was having a conversation with my brother in law who's a pediatric doctor, asking him about AI and he's like, I don't think it's ever going to replace doctors, but it's going to be a really great assistant. Like it's going to help you think better and quicker. And the example that I thought of, that we've talked about is like, hey, you have a paragraph, you have three paragraphs and saying hey, can you help me get this down to one paragraph of really clear instructions?

That's to me.

And then you still are looking at it, revising it, it. But it maybe saves you 45 minutes of work of like remixing those three paragraphs down to one. And then you're still, you know, putting the final touches on it. Is that kind of what you mean when you talk about being an assistant?

Oh for sure. And I even think your example of a three paragraph long set of instructions that you are looking at and your brain is just like numb and you're like, I, I can't even figure out something. And then you put it in and you're like, say nope, do it again, do it again. You revise it, do it again. So it can act as an assistant to make your workflow faster. And I think that is super helpful. But I agree about the testing part. And just because you can go on Google and pull up whatever number of gluten free blueberry muffins, I can tell you for sure from having tested and created many that they are different. And just because I can pull up 25 and give you one, that doesn't mean that's the one you're going to want to make for your wife or for brunch or something they they. It does, it does. The testing part matters. And I think if a recipe works, that's ultimately what the person wants, not just that it can spit out a recipe.

Yeah, so that's great. And I think of in this interview I had with Alex and Sonia, Alex talked about how he had created a GPT within ChatGPT that does his editing. And again, it's the kind of thing where it's like you don't just like not read it and then publish it right away, but it acts as an assistant and it says like, hey, look at this. Or like maybe this should be changed or adjusted. And that to me feels like today at least the sweet spot is like, hey, this is an incredible tool. It can help you in the content creation process. But like you will be at a competitive disadvantage if you remove the kind of humanity like, yeah, from the thing you were creating. Whether it be like you said the voice or just multiple times testing and coming to understand that content that you are creating.

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Do you have any other thoughts around? Like, in a world that is very saturated with content, being recipes that are published online, how else can people differentiate themselves? Not even necessarily from AI, but how can people differentiate themselves as a recipe creator online?

You know, that is a really good question and I'll tell you why. Because I feel myself that though I did this book because I really wanted to have people who are creating content, new people and people who've been around a long time have a resource that's modern and could help them create better content to make them more confident to differentiate themselves. And I think what differentiates somebody is somebody who takes, and I know this is just doesn't spit out constant contact and constant content. Meaning that, like, I do find things entertaining and I think that's the focus. But I think the places that I really care about, just like when I read a novel, is like really good, good recipes that actually work. So, you know, like, how do you differentiate yourself? It's sort of like, you know, there's so many people self publishing novels now. How do you differentiate? I mean, I guess it's, it's story, it's entertainment. But I think in the end, if that's all you want, that's great. But for somebody like myself, I care about you. Bjork. Giving me a recipe that I'm going to make tomorrow night for dinner. And it's going to work because I'm going to invite my neighbors over and it's something that I want to taste delicious and that you, you tested it and you've tried it out and you've given me something that's solid. Yeah, that's what I want.

And a huge part of that is, number one, kind of baseline. Are the ingredients, are the instructions accurate? Like, do they have everything they need? Number two, are they easy to follow? Like, am I gonna understand this as I go through it? And then I think, like you said, number three, this is really important and Becoming more important. Like, am I drawn to it from an artistry perspective? Like, is their voice, is their story, are the pictures good? And that feels like it's a combination of those multiple things. Plus I would maybe add a fourth, especially in the world of digital content, which is like, is this person, does this person have like me in mind and the problems that I have and are we working together to like solve those problems? It could be a diet. It could be like for a pinch of yum. Right now we think a lot about like, hey, are there people with kids? Like, we have a three year old and a six year old and so like we're trying and I say we. It's like Lindsay, but I'm just drafting off of her success.

So that's okay. Everything in a marriage is we.

Yeah, right, exactly. But like, what does it look like to create this thing for a family that have kids and both of the parents are working and it's going to be successful and like that feels like where it starts to get kind of exciting.

Well, that's why I feel so strongly. It's. Who's your audience? I think you need to know your audience. Like if you're saying a family who has a three year old and a six year old is different than a couple who are now empty nesters or somebody who is single and is trying to cook for one or occasionally two people. And you know, I find it interesting as a dietitian when I see recipes out there that are saying that something is healthy, you know, and there, there really isn't a standard and then they have the nutrition information and I'm like, okay, is that the way you're educating that's healthy or something that's really fast? And then buried in step two is an overnight marinade or something that's really fast. But gosh, you just forced me to mess up like three bowls and two sheet pans. And I'm like, yeah, I'm like, who's a fast for you? Do you have a, you know, the sous chef and the kitchen cleaner.

Yep.

In your kitchen. So I think that what is important is to really understand who your end user is, like who's making your recipe. And that is a successful recipe is when you make them successful, not to show somebody how much you know and you know. Yeah. So it can include who's your audience for people who don't cook or with limited resources. And that's a successful recipe too.

Yep. I think of our friend Beth who started Budget Bites and you know, the she every recipe that she's creating. And there's a team now, so it's multiple people, but it's like, here's how much this costs per serving, like, and that's their angle. But then they also have all of those additional elements of, like, really clear instructions and story behind it. And, you know, I think the piece that you talked about with like, adding some of these modifiers, like quick or healthy, it's where there starts to be some tension in the worlds that we operate, which is like, somebody's going to go out and they're going to do SEO, they're going to do keyword research, and they're going to see, like, hey, if I add the modifier of like easy or quick to this recipe, like, it's going to be a little less competitive. There's going to be a little more opportunity for me to do that. But if it's not actually that and people aren't successful, or it's not quick, or it takes longer than you said, like, there's a person on the other side who's showing up and they're going through the process of making that thing. And if you don't deliver on the promise of the branding of the recipe, what happens is you've maybe cashed in on like a really quick hit from a search result. But over a long period of time, what you're not going to get is people who continue to show up and people who, you know, instead of just doing a Google search, come to your site to start their search or your social account or whatever it might be. And I think that's one of the things that we as content creators need to be aware of is, like, especially in a world where how people discover content is shifting, one of the most important things that we can establish is trust with somebody that they know that they're going to get what these that we say that they're going to get. And oftentimes that means, like, all of those different things we've talked about, it's clear, it's been tested.

Like, it's reproducible.

It's reproducible. Yeah, it's all of those things. So in the, in the, you know, as we've been talking, I've kind of thought about this within the context of a website, and I think a lot of people who are creating those recipes think about it within the context of a website. People come, they cook off of, you know, a set of instructions and ingredients. What do you think about different platforms and how recipes are presented on those? You know, you can think about TikTok. You can think about Instagram, short form video, there's maybe Facebook. Are there considerations that we as digital creators should be thinking about as the way a recipe is presented changes? Like 20 years ago it would have been a recipe card, it would have been a cookbook, it maybe would have been, you know, a grandparent scratching it down on a piece of paper. But now it might be like a 60 second TikTok video. What does that mean for people who are creating recipes?

Well, I don't know if this is gonna not sound super positive for me, but I feel like there's a difference. I mean that's to me is entertainment and I don't know, so is. It almost doesn't matter if the recipe works anyway because if somebody is scrolling on TikTok and they're, you know, they're gonna learn how to make a gluten free pasta dough if you know it's gotta be entertaining. And whether the recipe works or not I think is less important because there's so much content and noise out there. I don't know if everybody who goes on these platforms and maybe you can tell me, are they actually gonna use that gluten free pasta dough to make that, you know, meal at the end of the day or even on the weekend? I don't know. I think it's more about entertainment than actually anything else.

Yeah, I think yes. And I also think there's probably people who are making like crescent roll wrapped hot dogs from TikTok. You know, it's like, and part of it is almost like can the, can you achieve the recipe in a way where it's easy enough to communicate in a 60 second video? Like I think for a recipe that is, and some people probably would even say like that's not a recipe, that's just putting some like pre made stuff together.

It's a recipe.

Sure, yeah. I mean it's a thing.

I think there's no shame in that. I think we all have to do things fast. But. Yeah, but you know, again that's, it's a visual recipe and the visual is teaching. And so if you actually want to give somebody that crescent roll that you're making for dinner and you know like rolling it out or whatever else the tiktoker is going to show. It's like there's the, you know, there's the actual cooking which you're filming and then there's the actual written on the page or something that somebody can print out. That's like a separate instruction. So I Think I just think of them as two different things and they can both work together. And I think actually working together, like on a lot of blogs and other things where you can actually have the recipe and you could click on a video and watch somebody make something. I think it's really helpful.

Yeah, it's almost like one of the nice things about a blog, you know, or an article or a recipe post is like, it's easy to pair multiple forms of media. Like, you can have the written stuff in a really nice way, you can have a video that goes with it. But one of the things I'm curious about is like, I, you know, I. I was talking to different brother in law, younger brother in law, not the doctor who, and we were talking about investing and he was like, oh yeah, I was talking about, like, you should really think about like, whatever, Roth IRA or something like that. And he was like, oh, yeah, like that's where you can like put it in after you get paid. You can take that money and then put. And I was like, how did you know about that? You know, he's like 21, he's like, oh, TikTok. Like, you know, TikTok finance. And so it's like, I think that. And I. My guess is there are, I don't know, hundreds of thousands of people who are like hungry at the end of the day and like pulling up TikTok and being like taco recipe. And so part of it is like, I think our challenge is as creators, not only how do we be entertainment on these platforms like TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, but also if somebody is using that as their content to produce the recipe, how can it also then be functional in a way where they're able to make it? And that feels like I have never done that. Lindsay does it, like all the time. It's what she's doing. A lot of it is. It's almost like a promotional piece to say, hey, if you want the full recipe, go here. And so that's a little bit of the approach that we're taking. It's not like we're trying to hit every step along the way and give people out the other side, but it's almost like a curiosity for me. Like, is there an opportunity for people to create a piece of content where from start to finish, you can watch it and have success with it just through the video itself. But it seems like maybe that would be a difficult thing, especially with a complex recipe.

So, yeah, I think so. But I think one thing about the Roth ira, which that Sounds interesting, but I'm still old fashioned in the way that I have lots of friends in real life and I know who to call on what subject and what topic. And so if somebody wants a recipe on something for a specific holiday or for, for a party or if they have a new dietary restriction with their father's got to reduce sodium or someone's got diagnosed with celiac. Can you help me? Can you help me? I think of that Roth IRA thing as when you're watching TikTok and you're doing these videos, it's like where do you really want to get your content? You know, from a true financial advisor or somebody who's just sort of talking on TikTok. If you have a newly new dietary restriction or something diet related, you know, where do you want to get your content told? You know, do you want to scroll through TikTok and trust. A lot of the things that I see, I don't, they're kind of misleading or confusing and just sort of add to that anxiety of I don't know, I'm not saving enough or I'm not following the right diet. So I think to me sometimes it could just be an overwhelming amount of like a fire hose of information and I'd rather pick up the phone and call the person. That's how I wish cooking would go back to in some ways, you know, does you pick up the phone and say hey, what am I supposed to do with X? But I know I'm sort of, that makes me sound like a Luddite. But I'm just saying I think that you have to be really careful about the information that you're getting on these platforms.

Yeah, especially like as a consumer like it kind of speaks to the like there is no, there's much less friction. And so like anybody can produce a piece of content. If that's true, you know, and people are incentivized by creating the thing that is most viewed, then what you have is a scenario where you're going to be tapping into kind of potentially some of the worst parts of the human brain, whether that be like fear or greed or anger. And so like as consumers I think we need to be aware of that but as creators there's this weird opportunity then where it's like how do you do that in a way where you know, if you were to create the comparable piece of content from like a financial advisor, he'd be like, well like you know, dollar cost average into index funds over a long career and prioritize tax sheltered and like nobody would watch it? No, but if you're like bitcoin to the moon and you're going to be a millionaire in a year, like lots of people would watch it. And so it, it's maybe just an observation as creators like that we need to balance that trust piece that we talked about where people can feel. And Lindsay talks about this. She got an email from a doctor who was like, I feel comfortable sending my patients to your site because I know that I can trust the voice that you use, how you talk about content. Like that's really valuable. And that comes from like, you know, years of making decisions around how to talk about content and how to talk about recipes and, but also it's hard when you can get a quick hit on some of these social platforms. So if nothing else, just like an observation on how hard it is as a creator to watch that balance.

Right. To capture the attention of, you know, people who are, you know, moving all over the place. And I think in terms of nutrition that, you know, I, I see even, you know, doctors that are selling supplements or doctors that are selling courses and how to be in a healthy aging. It's, you know, they, they come at it like, do you want to know the best foods that you can eat to avoid Alzheimer's, heart disease, diabetes?

Right.

You know, yeah, whatever. And so they, they.

Grapes. Just eat grapes? Yeah, yeah, Grapes and almonds. Yeah.

Right. So it's sort of like they, they get you with this idea that there's this magic answer and every consumer wants that magic answer, that elixir that's going to make us healthier, live longer, you know, prevent all these diet related diseases. But I just think that, you know, that's, there's marketing and then there's just like real life. And so it depends on, you know, if you need advice financially or you need to know what you're going to have for dinner tonight. When two people work, that is really quick. I mean, I think people who are good at what they do, it, it shows. And I think even if it's online or in real life, it's where you go to, for your information.

Yeah, that's great. So let's talk about the book a little bit more as we close out here. The complete recipe writing guide. Five years of working on it, decades of knowledge that have gone into it. When somebody picks this up, what would your recommendation be? Do they work through it kind of, you know, cover to, to cover? Do you jump kind of to a chapter that feels like it's most applicable? And if you did have to point, let's say online content creators who are writing recipes for a site or maybe social like, where would be a good place for those people to start? With the book.

Okay, so the book has six chapters dedicated entirely to recipe development that focus on health and wellness. So anywhere from plant based recipe development to food allergies for gluten, for, you know, celiac fodmap, which is really big right now. So if you're really interested in understanding how to develop recipes, modify ingredients, understand if an ingredient, for an example, I see it all the time. People say that MSG has gluten in it. It does not. And I use it and I think it's a great ingredient to reduce sodium in recipes. So if you really want to double check and really understand recipe development and ingredients, how to modify them, that's where I would go. And if on your blog or you know, on how you want to create your substack, you want to kind of put up a shingle as to being that health and wellness specific person, set nutrition standards for your recipes and those chapters will help you do that. The recipe writing chapter is like the AP style guide, but just for recipes. So there was once, well, there is an IP style guide. It hasn't been revised in a while. And there's an old book that I think my book has replaced on recipe writing. That chapter is super helpful if you want to have testers either that you, you know, I have lots of examples of testing sheets. So if you want to hire people to test your recipes or give them to your friends and your family, go to that chapter. You can kind of take what I've done, make it better for yourself and look at how I've suggested on how you test your recipes and keep track of them. That's a really.

What do you mean by keep track of them?

Meaning that like I've created Excel spreadsheets on all these different recipes. Who's sending it out? What are the common ingredients? Oh, that's where you know. So how you can, how you can sort of the process of it.

Yep.

And professional guidelines from, you know, I used to run the test kitchen at the Tribune, like how to actually do this because the testing is so key for your success in the recipes you write. And then the nutrition analysis chapter is super interesting because when I was writing it, I used to do a lot of nutrition analysis for food companies and I do less of it now partially by intention. And I used to do it for a lot of publications which now use a lot of automated calculators in their nutrition analysis. And I look at the nutrition analysis on blogs and, you know, that's a whole separate blogging. Like, we could do a podcast just on this topic.

Yeah, totally.

But I would say that's a really good chapter to understand how to evaluate software programs to really understand the accuracy of your nutrition analysis. And if you ever have products that you're trying to promote with a food company, you know, that's like a nutrition analysis and like a deep dive. Super nuanced. It does talk about evaluating the software, which automated plugins to use. And then the last chapter, I think would just be helpful if you're sort of starting out in terms of really understanding the food styling, photography and video part, and especially the food styling, which I think is really, really detailed and kind of gives you the bottom line.

Yep. Yeah, that's great. I think of the nutrition. We actually had a business a couple years ago that did nutrition analysis. And it's really hard, like.

Oh, it's super hard.

And, you know, trying to do it in a way where it like, lifts the burden off of the creator from having to do a lot of it, but also then continues to be accurate. And I think a lot of times what happens is you have somebody who's, you know, crater. You'll punch in the numbers and just kind of be on your way. But it's like, oh, you actually have to spend some time with it.

Yeah.

Making sure it's all accurate. And there's things like, you know, sauteing a thing and that changes.

Yeah. Think about like brining and marinating and deep frying and like making things for their salt in the water, how much salt was absorbed. And that's why if it's, you know, a label, FDA label, that's one type of analysis. But I think for recipes, you know, you could be less exact. It's just.

It's not on the back of a.

It's product packed. Yeah.

So but you still want to be as accurate as possible. And it kind of goes back to that trust thing. It's like you want to make sure that stuff is as tight as possible. And yeah, complicated business. We sold it, we no longer own it. But still something important to think about. And especially like in our world, you know, there. There's this thing called structured data. And like nutrition information is a part of that. And so like, you are incentivized in some way to include that, but you don't want to do it as just kind of an afterthought where you're just throwing the stuff in there and putting it up quickly because you want it to be as accurate as possible.

Yeah. And I think that chapter kind of will explain to people a bit about the nutrition analysis to understand why you shouldn't be making claims about things or why even as a content creator, you don't want to say that a pumpkin loaf in a 9 by 5 pan has 16 servings just to get the nutritionals down, because it just, you know, it's not realistic and it's just, it's sort of deceptive as a professional to. To be doing that.

So you mean if it's actually 8, don't say it's 16.

Yeah, but I've, But I've seen that. And I've seen a pound of past to serve like eight, too. Or, you know, I was like, when we.

I went to crumble cookie once. Yeah. You know, crumble, like eat crumble. And I was like, oh, my gosh, this cookie only has like 350 calories in it. This is so good. And I was like, wait a minute, right? Like, this doesn't check out. Oh, a fourth of a cookie has 350 calories in it.

I mean, this is very funny because just last night I was looking at a package of, well, Garrett's popcorn in Chicago, which everyone knows, you know, is such a great place. Well, they have them in little individual bags. And I looked on the back and I'm like, oh, this is super interesting. And it was a serving for two. I'm like, it was barely a serving for one in my, in my serving. And so I thought, okay, that's. It's just sort of deceptive. So I always like to give people what is like real life and accurate and not to sort of skew the numbers to. To sell something. And one other thing I was going to say that's in my book that I think is helpful is that at the end there's really good appendices. So there are sample style guides, and I think style guides work for a food company, as I gave a food company example. But they work for people when they're creating content, even if it's for a substack newsletter, like how they want all of their content to appear. So when you hire somebody that. Or do it yourself and you're following it and you're creating it and, you know, sort of a form that you can use. Or just take mine from the book.

Yeah, that's great. Um, we're just getting to the point now where we're kind of looking at building out a team to test recipes previously. You know, Lindsay would make multiple recipes or if we have kind of ideas that we're workshopping. So that would be super valuable. When you talk about the Excel spreadsheets, I didn't see this. Is that something where there's like a link to download? Is that how that works with.

That would be a link to email me. And I. And I'm always happy to share.

Okay, perfect. Can we include your link in the show notes? Is that okay?

Okay, yeah, no, that's fine.

Or include your. Include your email. We'll. We'll do that if anybody has any interest in that. So super comprehensive. Obviously, a great guide for anybody who listens to this podcast. And I think also, you know, there's not gonna be as many people listening to this, but you talk about this idea of, like, maybe you want to document some of your family recipes or, you know, maybe you're not approaching it from a business standpoint, but you just want to get good. Like, some people want to get good at writing, not because they're going to publish a novel, but they just want to be a good writer. And I think similarly, there's an opportunity here to get good at recipes and documenting recipes and make a family cookbook. Yes.

And that's, you know, it's a. It's a source for people like that. And I do think this. The information on the nutrition part is super helpful because I just find myself super confused by things that I get in my email box every day. I'm like, what? There's like, a new study and. Yeah, it's just sort of like I always say, the advice in that way is like, try to eat the way your grandparents ate.

Yeah.

Dietary advice has not really changed that much. It may, but the problem, I would say also for content creators, maybe that won't sell very well.

Sure. Yeah. Right. Which is. Back to that conundrum.

Back to that. Yeah, right.

Yeah, right. Maybe time for. We could cover that in another podcast.

Right.

Rand, thanks so much for coming on. Really appreciate it. It's called the Complete Recipe Writing Guide, and you cover, you know, 400 pages of information that's really valuable and really helpful. So appreciate your time. And last question. Where's the best place for people to pick this up?

I would say Amazon is probably the easiest. I know for book publishers, they're not always loving that, but that is the easiest and fastest way to get it.

Yep. We'll link to it in the show notes. Rayanne, thanks so much for coming on.

Thanks, Bjork. It's been my pleasure.

Hey there, this is Emily from the Food Blogger Pro Team and thank you so much for listening to that episode. We really appreciate it. If you liked this episode or enjoy the show, we would really appreciate you leaving a review or rating wherever you listen to your podcast episodes. Ratings and reviews help get the show in front of new listeners and help us grow our little show into something even bigger. We read each and every review and it makes us so happy to hear when you're enjoying the podcast or what you would like us to improve or change in upcoming episodes. All you have to do is find the Food Blogger Pro podcast wherever you listen to podcasts, whether it's on Apple or Spotify or another player, and enter a rating and review. While you're there, make sure to subscribe to the podcast so that you never miss a new episode. We really appreciate it so much and it makes such a huge difference for our show, so thanks in advance and that's all we have for you today, so have a great week.