How CROs can use Negotiation Skills to Build Aligned Organizations - with Sanjay Yadav

Hi, I'm Warren Zenna, Founder and CEO of the CRO Collective and welcome to the CRO Spotlight Podcast. This show is focused exclusively on the success of Chief Revenue Officers. Each week we have an open, frank and freeform conversation with top experts in the revenue space about the CRO role and its critical impact on B2 businesses. This podcast is the place to be for CROs, sales and marketing leaders who aspire to become CROs and founders who are looking to appoint a CRO or want to support their CRO to succeed. Thanks for listening. Now let's go mix it up. Hello everyone and welcome to this episode of the Sierra Spotlight Podcast. This is Warren Jenna. I'm the founder of the Siero Collective and this week we have a great guest. I'm being joined by my colleague Sanjay Yadav, who is an expert in negotiation skills. Negotiation skills are such a critical part of not just sales, which is typically where they're used, maybe even in purchasing. I think you think about the way in which negotiation skills are being employed within organizations is sellers learning how to negotiate deals or procurement organizations learning how to negotiate purchasing and you know, the acquisition of goods and services, etc. But negotiation skills are critical for someone like a Chief Revenue Officer who has a very complex job and negotiations are a component of what they're doing on a day to day basis, particularly when it comes to navigating decisions, requests, needs, resource allocations, budgeting, even strategies and tactics. You know, a CRO has to talk up stairs to the board and to the CEO about different strategies and tactics that they want, they want to employ or develop for their people. Certainly the negotiating between functions. If I'm talking to my marketing organization and my sales organization, definitely going to be dealing with probably differences of opinion about the way in which not only resources should be allocated, but the strategies and tactics that we need to be taking. And the CRO needs to be an effective negotiator to determine how to best create the best outcomes with these decisions. So that's really critical. I'm looking forward to this conversation. That being said, last week I had the opportunity to chair the Chief Revenue Officer Summit or the CRO Summit again, I think for the fifth time. And I just wanted to share some reflections on that event because it's a great event and you know, I have the entire day to be in front of a group of Chief Revenue officers and revenue leaders, also observing all the speakers and the conversations that ensue from those discussions. And what's pervasive to me for the people that are you know, interested in listening to this podcast and thinking about the Chief Revenue Officer role. And the state of things is that there's no question about there's a shift in thinking related to the way companies are going to market. This pervasive go to market strategy, which is the growth at all costs mentality. We hear this all the time now. It's kind of like beating a drum. But it does seem like it's making a shift. And I know that there are economic issues related to it and I know that there's some maybe reactiveness that's causing this. I'm not sure if it's a consciousness or an awakening of sorts. I think it's reactive to the market. I'm skeptical. I tend to be a bit of a cynic and I unfortunately think that if the market were to suddenly become flush again and the economy were more confident and people were getting more cash flow into their day to day lives and money was flowing better again, I could easily see companies going back to that same sort of growth at all costs mentality. Because the reason is if you have a lot of money, you spend it. And I think that there's a reality to that, hopeful that maybe that's not going to be the case. That maybe this last four years, let's say, have created a bit of a different change in people's perspective on the way we need to go to market. And I think there's other issues. It's not just economic, it's also technological. So at the same time that the money was flowing, it was also a development of new fangled technologies, particularly in the sales sector and martech sector, which allowed companies to overload their outbound in ways we've never seen before. And I think AI is adding to that, right? I mean, it's just become too easy to deploy emails and text messages, you know, call dialers and listening platforms and conversational AI, et cetera, et cetera. And the also the rise of the SDR organization which just made army ants out of all these organizations that have nothing to do but spend money on acquisitions. And I do think that that issue cannibalized customers to the extent that I don't think people are buying any more from these type of outbound as much as they used to. I'm not saying it doesn't work, I'm saying it works less, it's less effective. And so I'm hopeful that coupled with that as well as the economy, that this, let's say, shift in thinking is permanent. And I'm hopeful that's the case. But any event, I'm just excited today to be with my colleague. His name is Sanjay. I mentioned before and I'm going to be introducing to him in a second. But before I do that, I want to make everybody also realize, you know, that there's a lot more opportunity here with the Sierra Collective. We do offer a course for aspiring Chief Revenue Officers who want to become a CRO looking to upskill. And we also have a Master's council for accomplished Chief Revenue officers who are looking for someone to Talk to other CROs to collaborate with and commiserate with. And we also have our CRO Readiness Program, which is for founders and CEOs looking to build better organizations in preparation for a Chief Revenue officer. So any event, I look forward to that and I'm excited about today's episode. Hello, everyone. And again, as I mentioned, I'm really excited today. I have a guest with me who is a friend of mine and really talented consultant Sanjay Yadav, whom has been doing work in the negotiation and sales training space for, I don't know, decades. And we've come to work together and he's really talented and he has a really interesting perspective on negotiating skills, which I learned a lot about, which I didn't really think about. You think about negotiation, you think about you going to the marketplace and you're haggling over like a jewel or something. It's nothing like that. It's much more complicated. It's actually a psychological and language skill. And listening to Sanjay talk about it just opened up my eyes to a whole other way of looking at and approaching problems you have with people. So anyway, Sanjay, welcome and it's really great to have you here.

Thank you.

It's good to kick this off. You know, if you tell people about yourself a little bit, how you got into this and you know, why negotiating, like, how does that become something that people think about or your journey is interesting?

Okay, let me try and unpack some of that. So I have 26 odd years of corporate experience across three industries. Two familiar ones to everybody is Mars and also Philip Morris. And as you can imagine, within the corporate world, you do a lot of negotiation. Because I was involved both as a procurement person as well as a salesperson within these two organizations. And I did that across various parts of the world. So not just negotiating from a corporate perspective or from an organizational perspect, but also from a cultural perspective because I worked in Europe, in Asia, in Middle east, etc. And there's cultural aspects of negotiation that you need to take into, once you're trying to, you know, conclude deals with the other party. How I got involved in my own business of setting up negotiation was actually on the back of one of my last jobs that I did where I was asked to build a negotiating curriculum for the creative industry people, the media guys, etc. Because one of the things they were good at was the creative part. The things that they were struggling with was to be able to commercialize their creatives and were basically struggling to negotiate appropriately with the, the clients that they were, you know, negotiating with that at that time. Since I came from a client background, I was asked to set up a program to help them basically get better at it. I built the program, literally started with a bunch of slides, eventually became into a half day workshop, became a one day workshop. I started video recording these workshops. I ended up doing like 130 of these workshops over a three year period across the various regions for this organization WPP, which is, as you know, in the, in the media advertising business. And of course the light bulb moment rang and I thought, well hang on, why am I doing it for them? I hope they're not listening. And I thought, well, I could do this, you know, for myself and if I can take the platform of negotiation and basically carve it out for different types of industries, whether you're in pharma, whether you're in cpg, whether you're in auto or telecom, the structure of negotiation essentially is the same. But if I can adapt it for the different parts of the industry, then I can make it something interesting for my potential clients. And that's really where the journey started back in Singapore about eight years ago. That's how I got into it. And then one thing led to another and here I am providing this service across various industries, across various parts of the world. We do both, we do online training, like zoom based training, as well as face to face.

Okay, fascinating. So I would cut into this a little bit because I want you, if you could define negotiating like, you know, how would you define what that is? Because I never would have even thought to ask that question until I started working with you.

Yeah. The negotiation by, from a definition point of view, is a trading activity. In other words, in order for me to get something from you, Warren, I'm going to have to give something to you of interest. So negotiation, simply put, is a trading activity. What it isn't is a haggle. Because you mentioned that at the, the, at the beginning where people seem to think negotiation is a haggle, haggle is a different methodology on how you want to conclude a deal. Negotiation is different.

So you say haggling. Is haggling a form of negotiating or is it different?

Yeah, haggling is. Is a. A simpler version. So let me try and explain. Haggling is, you know, you're haggling when you're only discussing a single variant, and it's usually the price. So for example, if you go to a bazaar or a market, and if you want to buy something, let's say you want to buy a T shirt from a trader, it's usually the price that you're going to be negotiating. There aren't any other elements that you're actually bringing into play to try and get this deal over the line. Negotiation, on the other hand, is never a single variant. It's usually multivariant. So, for example, a sales team that is going out to negotiate will be negotiating the price, payment, terms, delivery, the resource associated, the service, contract, etc. These are multifaceted terms that have to be negotiated. And technically that becomes a negotiation versus a haggle, which is a single term.

I see. So you're correct. I think there's no doubt about the fact that in most cases with a single variant, it's usually price, which is why it's called haggling. But are there any other situations where the single variant is not price?

Yes, it can be. It can be just volume, for example, or it could be resource, it could be time. The skill here is to be able to understand that, am I haggling or am I negotiating? So for example, if you go into a bazaar and you start with a haggle, which is perfectly normal because you're saying, look, give me this t shirt for $10, for example, and the person on the other side probably wants $15, you know that this is a haggle. The skill is to know, how do I make this negotiation? Quite simply, you start adding variables. So, for example, you could add volume. You could say, listen, I'll buy this t shirt for $10, but I'll get two of them. And if you're still not agreeing to the variables, you might want to think about time. I will come back next year and I will buy another two T shirts. So you've now added another variable to this discussion and making sure that it's a negotiation because it serves you better to negotiate versus haggle.

Got it. Thank you so much again for listening to the CRO Spotlight podcast. This podcast is an important plank in the zero collective communication strategy, and we're really thrilled to have such great guests on here. So listening and sharing the podcast with other people is really vital because we want to get as many people listening to this great stuff as possible. A couple things to note. If you're a aspiring CRO or a recently hired CRO or even a old salty CRO and you're looking to either become a Chief Revenue Officer or improve your chops and gain some more insights and improve your competencies as a Chief Revenue officer, we offer the CRO accelerator course. It's five years now. It's the first CRO focused course that was out there. It's a 15 week course that is populated by aspiring chief revenue officers and CROs. We're pretty selective in terms of who can be a member of the CRO Accelerator course. It's people who are probably like more like ready to be a CRO right now. They have number of years under their belt as a revenue leader, whether it be a sales leader or a marketing leader, or even rev ops leader. And they either want to move into the C suite or they're CROs that want to just make sure that they win in the role. The Serial Accelerator course, we kick off the next one in May, mid May 2025. So if you are interested in being a member of the next cohort, please just write me a note on LinkedIn. Just DM me CRO accelerator and we'll set up a time to talk and then I can send you more information to give you a brochure of the course. So again, CRO accelerator course, 15 week program for aspiring and newly hired CROs. Take advantage of it, it's been great. And you'll see some more information about it on the website. Thanks. Great. Okay, this is helpful. Okay, so good. So we've sort of, we've identified negotiating generally as a, like a commercial activity essentially. Right?

Yeah. Negotiation primarily is seen as a commercial activity, particularly in the Western world. So if you look at the European countries or Americas, for example, and you ask people when is it appropriate to negotiate, they will tell you it's in usually informal circumstances. So when I'm trying to do a deal with a, with a vendor, for example, or with a client, or when I'm trying to buy a house, buy a car, negotiate a salary, it's a formal setting. That's when negotiation becomes appropriate according to them, culturally.

Okay. So as you and I have talked, I'm a bit leading the witness here to a degree. Haggling. I mean, haggling. Negotiating isn't just commercial. I mean, we negotiate all the time we negotiate with our spouses, with our kids. So talk a bit about that and how they relate and why negotiating is more of a interpersonal skill and not just a commercial skill.

Yeah, no, I mean, you and I discussed this, and I often say that negotiation is a life skill, because whether you realize it or not, you're negotiating quite a lot during the day. Whether at work, whether in your community or within your house, etcetera, you're constantly negotiating. Now, not everything needs to be negotiated, but the skill is to be able to know that this is a negotiation. And do I have the appropriate skills to actually negotiate at this particular stage? So, yeah, absolutely. Your negotiation is happening, you know, according to some research, over 10 to 12 times daily. So if you just, you know, extrapolate that over the year, you're doing that about 4,000 times a year, and there aren't that many things you're doing 4,000 times a year. So negotiation is quite a critical piece of communication tool that people can improve on. And most people, unfortunately, are not good negotiators. They think they know how to negotiate, but they usually are haggling most of the time. And if you are in a service industry, for example, and if you get stuck in a haggle, which we know is a single variant discussion, then technically what you're doing is you're getting commoditized. And that's the last thing a service industry provider needs to do, is to get their product or services commoditized and not be able to then extract the value that they should be able to negotiate with their clients.

So it's fascinating to me because something I got out of these conversations with you is how. Without questions, no doubt, that I definitely convinced myself that I was a great negotiator. And I realized I'm lousy. I'm always haggling. And then the second thing is also knowing how to make things a negotiator. When you know you're adept at it. It's best to create a negotiation because it's an area where, if you're proficient at it, you could usually get what you want. And that's fascinating to me because it then becomes. And we talked about this, I talked about grappling, right? This is my analogy, is you watch MMA or any of these other fighting techniques, you got the kicker, you got the puncher, you got the grappler. And all these guys have their own area where they know that they dominate. And grapplers tend to be unique in the respect that they know that once they get their opponent on the ground because of their grappling skills, they know that they will likely win, which is why their strategy is to get their opponent on the ground where they have the advantage. And conversely, if I'm fighting in an MMA battle and I know that I'm not a good grappler, I don't want to get on the ground with someone whom I know is a good grappler, because that's where that person will have the advantage. I want to keep that person on their feet.

Right.

So, you know, within that analogy, I'd be curious to know if you can talk a little bit about things like that. I'm curious to know a couple things. One is, like, what are the sort of common things that people do when they don't have this distinction that they fall into, you know, when they're not skilled in this, that they could be aware of by virtue of this conversation?

Yeah. I mean, the one piece of advice I can give is imagine negotiation is like judo. And you've mentioned.

Yes, we talked about this a lot. Yeah.

Judo, as you all know, is all to do with managing momentum. Right. So a small guy can actually bring down a bigger guy physically in a judo fight. Right. And negotiation is no different, is to be able to manage the momentum of the discussions that is taking place between the two parties. So if you ever feel that you're going into a negotiation where the other party has more power in this discussion, then one of the first things you need to do is to get them to negotiate with you. Because if they decide to negotiate with you, and there's a skill in getting the other party to come and negotiate with you. So in other words, to get them to the negotiating table. If you have that skill to be able to get them to the negotiating table, then what that tells you is that this is no longer a power game. This has now become a skill game, a negotiating skill game, which means that if I'm a better negotiator, I'm skilled at negotiation, I'm likely to get a better outcome. Okay. So that's very important to understand that if you think they seem to have more power, find a way to get them to negotiate with you. Okay. And secondly, when you're in a negotiation, one of the most common mistakes that happen is that it becomes a combative sport where it's us versus them. The irony is that you need the other party to do a deal, whether you like them or not. You need them for your deal to go over the line, just like they need you, obviously, because you're negotiating to try and find a solution, okay? The classic mistake most people make is they start denying the other party of what they're asking for. So, for example, Warren, if you're asking for a $10,000 pay rise, and I'm sitting here just denying you for the next 10 minutes, saying, no, you don't need a $10,000 pay rise. You didn't do this. You could have done this better. There's too much inflation. I can't afford it. Whatever reason I give, all I'm doing is I'm denying you what you're asking for. And if I deny you, and I continue to deny you, it is highly likely that you will then start to deny me. And if both parties start to deny each other, the negotiation either just gets delayed or got stalled. So the skilled negotiator is a person who is able to understand what the other party is asking for and actually try to give it, but under conditions and terms which are acceptable to him or her. So not to deny them, but try and give it to them to be able to say, look, I know what this is, what you're asking for, but these are my terms and conditions. If I can hand this, for example, $10,000 pay rise to you, and that's a skill. It's a skill to be able to know what the issue is and then try and give it to them with conditions that are acceptable to you. And most people don't do that. All they end up doing is, I can't give it to you, won't give it to you, shouldn't give it to you. And they start deny, deny, deny. You deny them, they deny you.

Yeah. This is so fascinating. So let's break into this a little bit again. In the weeds here. So going to talk about two skills. One is knowing how to draw somebody into a negotiation. First, get them to the negotiating table, as you said. And the second one is then once they're in there, knowing how to negotiate, once they're in the ring. Right. You got to get them in the ring, and then you got to fight them. Right. I know I'm being a little bit aggressive in the way I'm using my language, but let's just use that. For example, so how do you get somebody into a negotiation? Let. Let's use your analogy, okay? Because it's a very common one. A lot of people listening to this are probably thinking a lot about this one. You know, I know that I deserve more money or I think I deserve more money, or I want more money. Let's say I don't whether you deserve it. I can get into that different conversation. But let's just say I have this belief that I'm underpaid or I'm undercompensated or whatever the case may be. And I want to go to my boss and I want to get, you know, a 30,000%, $30,000 raise or something that brings me up to the level that I think my peers are enjoying or something like that. And my boss, like you said, takes the stance of no, we don't have that kind of budget right now. You haven't demonstrated X. So no. Okay, Now I agree with you that this is a short sighted methodology because that person's going to walk out of the room disappointed and now you're going to be thinking twice about whether that person is going to be giving their best effort to the job. Anym more they're going to leave the job, leave that room less likely to invest the same level of effort because that discussion didn't go the way they wanted. Now I've just created a less than stellar performer because I've hidden incentivize them. They wanted something. And that happens a lot though I think people, there's egos that get involved, they just want to say no or who the hell are you? And it's an emotional thing, it's not a tactical thing, it's not even strategic. So I'm the guy, I went in, I asked my boss for money, he's just saying no. How do I bring my boss into the negotiating table?

Okay, so let's just first of all clarify that technically this is a negotiation. So if you're ever thinking of going, let's say for a pay rise alone, you shouldn't because that technically is a haggle.

Okay, I see. In other words, because you walked in with one variable as being the deciding factor, so you created a haggle by virtue of asking for just money. Okay, that's fair.

So one of the first things when you and I see this a lot where people go, I want to pay rise. The best way to ask for a pay rise is not just to ask for a pay rise. You have to go with a list of things that you want. So for example, more pto, better access to childcare because I'm, you know, I have a young, young kid, for example, more courses that I want to be able, the company should be able to pay towards my growth, etc. Etc. You can sit and think of a list of items that you should be able to monetize and prioritize based on what is important to you, including the salary.

Okay, so you're saying that I should walk in with. Let me. I'm going to use this almost like a kidnapping kind of analogy. I should walk in with a list of demands. Thanks again for listening to the Zero Spotlight Podcast. We're excited about all the great guests we have, and more importantly, we're excited mostly about you for being avid listeners and supporting the work that we do here. Feel free please to share the Zero Spotlight Podcast with any of your colleagues. We just think there's a great wealth of information here and we want to get the word out to as many people as possible in. Your support of the show is really appreciated. I wanted to share information about a program that we offer called the CRO Masters Council. The CRO Masters Council is a bimonthly group of six seasoned Chief Revenue Officers who are looking for a Chief Revenue Officer Board of Directors, so to speak, that they could share what's going on with them, collaborate with ideas, get some feedback on what's going on in their current role. And these are great conversations. I facilitate them. The CRO Masters Councils, again, they're twice a month and they last for at least six months to a year. So if you're interested in having your own CRO suite, your own Board of Directors of Chief Revenue Officers, it's a private, confidential conversation that we have. It's infinitely useful. Imagine having a room full of other Chief Revenue Officers you can talk to and say, hey, I'm working on this. Or have you guys figured that out? Or, I'm having this issue right now with my business or my results. These are just invaluable conversations with Chief Revenue Officers. Chief Revenue Officers have a very, very unique role. It's a very lonely job, and only other CROs understand what you're going through. So that's why we created this program. So if you're interested in being a member of the next CRO Master's Council, which we have a number of them being put together right now, just go to my LinkedIn and DM me masters or master's Council, and I'll follow up with you and set up a call or send you some more information about it. Looking forward to seeing you there and thank you.

Yeah, so you should. If you want to go into a negotiation, your demands should be more than one.

And how would that be served up? Because I could imagine a lot of people listening to this are thinking, I mean, I'm going to sound like a real prima donna if I walk into my boss's office, I go, I want these five things. You know, I want more money. I want more time. And it's like, who the hell are you? Get out of my office. You know, like, why are you coming in with a list of demands? How is that served up in a way that doesn't create an even more antagonistic response from your boss?

Right? So remember, it's all preparation. Right? So let's say you do want to pay rise of X amount, but you should create a list of items that are also of value to you in addition to the salary that you're asking for. Now, your strategy could be to go in there and simply start by asking for the salary so you don't bring in the other items, but you have them in your pocket.

Okay?

You start with your salary because you know, you want to go as a negotiator, not as a haggler. So you're prepared. You ask for a salary. Hopefully your boss says no. And why do I say hopefully? Why do I say hopefully that if you ask for a $30,000.

Well, I guess. I guess if they say no, then now that is an opening for a negotiation to occur.

Absolutely right. This is that the word no is an opportunity for you to start negotiating. Because if you ask for a $30,000 pay rise and they say yes, you should be kicking yourself because you could be saying, I could have asked for 40,000.

Yeah, that's for sure.

So actually, you have. As a negotiator, you have to be comfortable with the word no, because that's an opening.

Sounds like you almost have to want the word no.

Absolutely. You don't want a yes because that means either you. You haven't prepared well enough, you miscalculated, you just simply haven't asked enough. Okay? So you. You prepare optimistically, for example, and realistically, you go in there and you place your number. Let's say it's $30,000. Hopefully, your boss will say no. That's when you start trying to find out, you know, why not, and what would be the circumstances that will allow me to get the 30,000. If, for example, you come down because your boss says, I can't give you 30 at this stage, but I'm willing to give you 10. Technically, you've lost $10,000 worth of value. That's when your other list of items, which you've monetized and prioritized to say, all right, okay, if you agree to these two additional items, then I'm willing to accept the $20,000. Pay rise. So what you've done is in terms of total value, you've got the 20k pay rise plus some additional items. That gives you a total package. This is why it's very important that when you go into a negotiation, you go with variables that you have prioritized and monetized in your own eyes. Right. What's value to you?

Sure, of course.

And the important thing is to get the no because if you get the yes, then you miss an opportunity. Okay. Which means no is just the beginning. And that's why I always tell people, imagine the word no, N o and k, N o, W. Now I know it's time to negotiate. Sounds the same, but it spells differently. So a skilled negotiator always spells no with a K, N o, W. So if Warren says to me, no, Sanjay, I'm not going to give you $30,000 pay rise. I now know it's time to negotiate rather than concede or get into a fight or get into an argument.

That's great. I love it.

Okay, so that's the first part. Now how do I get the my boss to come and negotiate with me? Well, you've got two options. You can either incentivize the carrots and stick method. Right. You can either incentivize the boss to come and negotiate with you and we can talk about examples of that, or you can penalize. Right. So a form of a threat, for example. So you walk through that.

What might that sound like? Both instances in that case.

So an incentive could be, look, I'm asking for a 30,000 pay rise. Once I have that, I believe I can deliver a, B, C additional revenue or margin to the business, whatever that is. But it's an incentive for the boss to agree. It's a carrot. I can work extra hours. I can, I have. I know. I will build three more strategies in addition to what I have at the moment. Something that is an incentive for the boss. And it has to be an incentive for the boss to be able to say, okay, I'll be interested in that. Let me see if I want to know what Sanjay is telling me regarding what he is going to do in addition to what he is doing at the moment for the business if he gets the $30,000. That tactic is not working. You should be prepared to also use the penalization, the threat, the sanction, which.

Would be an example in this case.

Might be what, for example, I mean extreme circumstances. If I'm not getting this 30,000 pay rise, I'm leaving. Okay, an extreme example. There Are other examples where, you know, where you could potentially say, look, I am not being paid to the level that at this industry should be paying. So is demotivating for me, you know, how much motivation do you want me to keep going? If I know at the back of my head that actually I'm underpaid for this job? So what you're trying to do is explain that there is motivational aspects involved in my work balance, and I don't want to be demotivotivated to try and do this job. So you're kind of threatening that if you don't give me the 30 grand, then there is a threat built in your business, and you don't want that threat in your business going any further than it is today. So in other words, pay me now. Ideally, because we are human beings, we like to do nice things with each other. You want to try the incentive method first?

Sure.

Okay.

So the disincentive, or the threat as you call it, is sort of a last resort in a way. Like if your incentives don't work, you know that you have the ability to be able to create some disincentives for the person as well. But it's not the way you should walk into a negotiation.

Absolutely. And that's not ideal. Nobody wants to sit there and have, you know, difficult discussions around, I'm leaving, I'm not motivated, etc. Etc. But it's important tool to have in your pocket because your objective is quite simple. I want this person to come and sit across the table and negotiate with me. So I have to use either an incentive, tactics, a carrot, or a threat so I can get this person to come and sit opposite me. So we can actually now start to discuss what exactly is it I want from this deal? Not just the 30,000. If I get the 30,000, well, I could have asked for more. But if he doesn't give me the 30,000, what else could I add into the program to be able to get a better package? That's the key. The key is to be able to get the person to the negotiating table. It doesn't make you more powerful. You don't suddenly become Captain America and say, right, I can now dictate terms. What it does, it gets them to the negotiating table. And when someone is negotiating with you, the power on both sides of the table is equal. So it becomes a skill game and no longer a power game. And that's what you want. If you're a skilled negotiator, you want people to come and negotiate with you because you're skilled at it. It's like a language. If you are fluent in Spanish, you want to speak Spanish with people, because then you can show off your grammar and your articulation in your language. You can be much more precise in what you're trying to achieve, like you would do in a language. And you'll be the same as a negotiator if you're good at it. So why not bring people to the negotiating table so you can utilize your skills?

This is great. So I want to switch gears a bit because there's something else, some other many things we talked about that I want to make sure. One thing I noted that is worth talking about in this particular topic is this concept of the idea of making the pie bigger as opposed to making the pie smaller. So you know when you're. When you're haggling with somebody, you're removing pieces of the pie in order to win. So if the total number of money on the table is what I want, what they want, if I accept less than what I want, they give me less than I want. Now I've taken slices of that pie, and I made the pie smaller as opposed to what you're saying. If bring with me additional assets or different conditions that I want, I'm making the pie bigger. When I have a bigger pie, then there's more opportunities for the negotiation to become my favorite. So I just. I really like that. I mean, if you could elaborate on that a little bit, I thought it was a brilliant way of looking at things.

Yeah, I mean, the most common mistake negotiators make is they see negotiation as a battle, which means I need to get certain things from this deal. And guess what? You shouldn't be surprised to know that they're trying to do the same thing. So there is a limited deal size that both parties are trying to extract for each other. Wouldn't it be great to actually think a little bit bigger than that and say, I know that this is the size of the deal, but imagine if I could make it bigger. And one of the best techniques to find a way how I can expand the size of the deal is to think about proposals. So, for example, I go into a negotiation, the client has asked me for a particular proposal, I give them that proposal. But I also know that I want to be able to give them a bigger proposal in addition to what they've asked for. Why? Because I want them to know that I can do more. There is more that I can provide as a service. In other words, I know you're asking for this, but I can give you some more. Would you be interested in considering the additional services that I am willing to provide and can provide? So you're telling them that the size of the pie is not just what you're asking for, which I can do, but I can actually do more. And this attitude towards, I know what you've asked me, but I can do a little bit more. And if I can get you to see what I can do more and you see value in that, then I can charge you more. So therefore, the size of the deal has become bigger and it's become closer to my ideal. Because, as you know, in all negotiation, I will have an ideal position, the other party will have an ideal position, and somewhere between the two ideal positions, the deal is going to take place. So if I start to expand the size of this pie, then I am getting closer to my ideal as well. And if I can get them to understand that there are bigger opportunities, bigger proposals that I can do for you, then I'm getting. Get them to spend more money with me and allowing me to do bigger deals, even beyond what they'd ask for. And that's the important thing, that negotiation is an opportunity to expand the pie rather than try and negotiate what has already been discussed or what has been requested. Think bigger. And it needs creativity. That's why skill negotiators are extremely creative people, because they won't just solve what the current deal is on the table, they will try and expand the size of the table.

Got it? Okay. So in, in the conversation we've had before, you mentioned that there are 10 different ways to deal with a conflict, right? Negotiation being one of them. Am I right? Is that correct? What are the other nine? Like, what are the other ways in which people typically deal with stuff like this?

So the most common that everybody would know about is persuasion is a. Is an excellent technique to try and get the other party to agree to your persuasive arguments. The other one is problem solving. You can problem solve a deal. You can escalate a deal. So, for example, if Warren is my boss, I cannot conclude a deal with the party opposite to me. I will say, listen, this is beyond my scope, but I know my boss can do this. I will escalate it, and then Warren will do the deal. So you can escalate.

You can like a form of like, almost like abdication in a way, right? I'm. I'm pushing it upstairs to somebody else who has greater authority. And I'm sorry, but I'm out of my. I'm out of my wheelhouse here. I have to bring this to my boss.

It could be a company regulation, right? So when I used to be in procurement, for example, I had a certain buying limit, right? So I could go up to $250,000 per project. But if the size of the project, if the other person came and said to me, sanjay, we can do more, you know, but that would mean $300,000. Now I can't authorize a $300,000 deal because my company doesn't allow me to actually spend more than 250. So I know I want to be able to do this deal. So then I will get my boss involved, who has the authority and say, look, I will explain to him. He will then come and do the deal that allows us to go bigger so you can escalate to try conclude a deal. You could do what we call imposing your will that I don't care what you think. If you want to do a deal with me, Warren, this is the way it's going to be. Imposing my will also gets you the deal over the line. The opposite of imposing your will is simply to give in. I'm trying to persuade you, I'm trying to negotiate, for example, or I'm trying to problem solve this, but you're not listening. And I realize that, you know what, it's just not worth it. Or my sales target are coming to an end of this month and I need to meet a certain number. I will simply just give in and say, all right, Warren, on this occasion, you know what? I like you, I'll agree to your terms. You can give in, and that will allow you to conclude a deal. So there are different ways you can get a deal over the line. All methods have a pro and con associated with it, right? So you have to be able to assess which method is the most appropriate based on the discussion that I'm having with the other party. Generally speaking, the rule is very simple. Persuasion is one of the easiest things to use and also one of the weakest methods to get the deal over the line. Because not everybody is persuaded. Not everybody is ready to listen to your persuasive argument. Negotiation is a little bit difficult to do, but it's the most powerful method because even if you don't like the person on the other side, it's not about the person. It's about the problem or the situation that you're trying to resolve. Okay. Negotiation is one of the most powerful techniques, but also has a con whereby in order for me to do a deal with Warren. I know that Warren's going to ask me for something in return. Am I willing to give that thing up that he's asking for in exchange for something that I want? Is it better value for me overall? Right. So it has its pros and cons, but negotiation by far is the most powerful and when done well, gives you more authority because you're absolutely in charge of doing the deal. Because you've actually gone and done your internal negotiations first, hopefully with your internal stakeholders, your CEO, your stakeholders. Now you know what the size of the deal is and how much more you can do or not do. Totally empowers you.

Okay, so I'm going to talk about persuasion for a minute because a lot of people, that's their fall back, right. Is particularly if they're good salespeople. And I don't want to get mired in a sales conversation because it's sort of a little bit too myopic or focused for the expansion of what we're trying to talk about. But in this example, when you talk about persuasion, you're essentially utilizing a skill which is similar to a negotiating skill. Certain people are extremely persuasive. They are. They're really good at it. They know how to articulate something and accentuate its value and also understand the triggers as to why it is that somebody may want something and make it persuasive to them. But say humbly, I'm very good at this. Right. This is probably the thing. Yeah. After having listened to you, I realize that my fallback is always persuasion, because I just know that maybe conditionally, if I believe in something, if I do think that what it is that I'm offering is the best thing, I have a very good track record of getting other people to agree with me that that's the best thing, because I'm able to articulate why it's the best thing. And I can bring a great deal of integrity to that discussion because I believe that it's true. And it usually ends there because I'm pretty good at getting people to go, okay, all right, uncle, you're right. I get it. Okay, fine. You know, but you're saying that it's not reliable enough.

Right.

That I want to make sure I'm clear. I'm saying, like, let's just say, for example, in this case, other people listening may have the same perspective as me. They may think, oh, I'm really persuasive. I'm a great salesperson. I can usually get people to agree with me. You're saying that if you develop really strong negotiation skills, that it may in fact be a better option than persuasion because of. Be more specific. Like, why would someone like me abandon what I believe is, like you already say, an unconscious competence that I have for developing a new one when I think the one that I have is already working. Like, what's the. What's the benefit for me to develop negotiation skills when I'm a good persuader, when I'm persuasive?

Okay, so let me just clarify some of the points. So I would not ask you to abandon.

Sure. I never would. It would always be there. But, you know, you're saying. I guess my question is as an additive skill, Right.

Yep. Yeah. So imagine you're a boxer, right? Imagine you're a boxer. My recommendation would be, if you're going into a boxing match or boxing fight, go with both your hands. And let's assume your left jab is your persuasive arm. Always. In any conflict resolution, always start with persuasion. Because if I can knock you out just using my left hand, the deal's done. And with respect to persuasion, I had to give nothing up. Right. I got you. To agree to my persuasive ways is great. The problem is this persuasion, if it's repeated, can be extremely irritating to the other party. So, for example, if ever you've been, you know, to a car salesman or a car showroom, right.

I understand you're about to buy a.

You're walking around a car or walking around a few bunch of cars, a sales rep comes up to you and says you like it, tells you all the specifications about the car, etc. And then just keeps going on about the benefits and what a wonderful. And if you buy now, we have a Thanksgiving special. And you know, this model is brilliant. It's been. It has the highest. But just on and on and on about the attributes. Okay? Now, if I agree to those attributes, of course I'm going to say yes. But if I don't, and I'm not sure yet, because I'm thinking, well, I do like the other showroom and I do like maybe the other car. And I'm still thinking, okay, persuasion at a certain point will stop working. And if you keep trying to persuade me, I am going to get irritated. I'm going to say, warren, man, listen, thank you for everything. I've written everything down that you just told me, but I'm still not convinced. Are you going to still keep persuading me? Right?

No, of course not. No, I would not know at that point, I know, I'm realizing as you're saying this, I agree with you is I never want to be annoying. I go, okay, that person doesn't see the value in this in the way that I'm articulating it. So now I want to do is find out what they do find valuable so I can.

Exactly. And this is the key, right? So when you start with your persuasion with your left jab, if it's working great, you've just persuaded them get to spend least amount of energy, least amount of time, least amount of effort, and more importantly, give nothing up from your side. But you got the deal right if this ain't working. And remember, for persuasion to work, the other party has to be listening to your persuasive argument. Now in the commercial reality of the world is that most people are stopped listening after a while.

Sure.

So the question now then becomes, do I keep going and irritate them or do I use a different tactics? Negotiation is another method. Now you can use that as your right hook. Okay, so, okay, I just explained to you a list of items which I believe of value to you versus the car that I'm trying to sell. What's missing? What else would you like? Is there something that I can give you that you would like to get this deal over the line? So, for example, let's say we want an extra year of warranty you have not for you give us one year warranty, the guy next door gives us two year warranty, you give me a two year warranty warrant and we have a deal. Now, technically this has become a negotiation. Why? Because you're going to have to give something up. Now if you can do a two year warranty, you should be thinking, what could I get in return? What is a two year warranty worth to me and what will it be really of value to them? So let's say that one additional year of warranty is $5,000. If you agree to that second year warranty, that's just $5,000 left your business. So you have to think about what else could I take from them in terms of $5,000 that at least allows me to equate total value. That's when you come up with your trading chips, the things that you have planned for in advance in your preparation and you might ask them, okay, I tell you what, if I give you an additional year, a two year warranty, do we have a deal that you will go onto your social media site, your personal page, take a picture of this car and post it for the next six weeks saying what a wonderful salesman I've been, what a wonderful sales company, and this car company has been, and you love driving the car that we've just sold you, so Maybe that's worth $10,000. Maybe you get two or three additional customers from his or her network. So you have to think about, how could I use negotiation, which I know is not my starting point, but if I have to negotiate, I want something in return because they're going to ask for something.

Okay, this is great. All right, let's. Let's now apply some of these things we're talking to, to more appurtenant examples that chief Revenue officers encounter. Like, you and I have talked about this. We know that for the purposes of my own perspective, CROs are not in the weeds around deals that much. They're really more dealing with organizational and operational constraints most of the time. So they're dealing with their boss, the CEO, the board.

Right.

Whom they report to, who has demands and expectations. The board usually consisted of people who've invested in the company. So they have obviously a vested interest in things and they have an opinion about them. And then there's also the various groups that you manage. Right. So if a CRO, I manage my sales organization, I manage a marketing organization, I'm managing a customer success organization, plus all the people that work for those people, and all those people need to collaborate, right. In the effort towards alignment across these different things. And I know that everyone's going to come to the table with varying opinions and resource allocations and other things like that. And I'm in the middle of this, basically. It's like almost like rat fest I have going on, right? I've got the CEO bugging down my neck who's being bothered by the board. I have to report to the board sometimes on a monthly, maybe quarterly basis, where the CEO and the board are both looking at my presentation from their own individual perspectives, sometimes they're not aligned. And then I have to go back to my team and I got to talk to my people about the ways in which I'm going to hire people or fire people or allocate money towards things or switch gears are my strategies. These are all ultimately come down to conversations where negotiating is going to be critical, but I might not be aware of it. They just occur to me, like conflicts or, you know, discussions I have to have or, you know, conflicts I have to manage. If the point you and I made is that if you look at this as a negotiate, these are all negotiation opportunities. A It changes the context around how these things are done. But more specifically, what are the ways in which the things you and I just talked about can be applied in those circumstances.

So a good way to look at this, and I empathize with the CROs because it's an extremely complex role and very critical role. But imagine a CRO with all the people you mentioned, the board, the CEO, the various department heads, sales, marketing, you know, customer focused departments, et cetera. Imagine each of these individuals or groups is a term. A term, in other words, payment, term, price, like you would do in a negotiation, volume, etc. Right. Every negotiation has a range. Your ideal and your walk away point. You will have your ideal, what you would like to achieve from this deal. And you certainly must have your walkway point. So in other words, if this red line is being crossed, you walk. Okay, now imagine that size of the deal with various points, CEOs requirements, the board's requirements, the marketing, the sales requirements, etc. Are moving parts within that range. As part of your preparation as a CRO, you need to find the range from every individual stakeholder. The marketing's ideal, walk away point, the CEO's ideal and walk away point, the board's ideal and walk away point. And as you start mapping out the individual members or departments across the negotiating continuum, you will start to see a line that overlaps. It won't be a perfect line. You will see that there are certain overlaps with the CEO and the board, and some overlap, but not all with the marketing and even less overlap, for example, with the sales. But there is a minor overlap that creates like a chart, like a snake, so to speak, that overlaps across the various members or departments. Now you know that somewhere in this group of people there is a range that the deal can happen. In other words, if you go to the CEO and say, look, you're asking for the ideal in order for me to give you this, sales won't be able to do X. So I tell you what, Mr. CEO, why don't you come a little bit less on this? Then I can bring sales into this. So what you're doing is you're trying to trade off the various items, in this case departments or people to actually negotiate with. You're the conduit, you're the person who is communicating, because you have the big picture at play. So if, for example, marketing have a certain objective, their own internal KPIs, their max and minimum has to be transposed onto your overall max and minimum. If marketing wants something that you know, the CEO won't agree with marketing. You have to communicate with marketing, say, look, if you taper this down, I can get you, the CEO to do this. In return, I can get the sales team to give you that so they get something in return. Negotiation is a very complex process, but it needs preparation. And one of the best ways to prepare is to create entities. Every entity has to be negotiated. Every entity has a max and minimum. You start overlapping each of these entities and you will start to see there is some overlap that needs flexibility from everybody. And that's when you go back in and say, right, I have a pretty good idea what everybody wants. You need to be less on this. You do that. I'll get the sales team to give you this. That will then mean that marketing will benefit from this. Marketing has to reduce this. So then the consumer or the customer focused department can get X. So you're trading between the various people and entities to be able to get an overall picture. Negotiation is all about flexibility. If you can negotiate a flexible method to try and show people that less from you or more from them, and little bit here, a little bit there, all comes as a total package. It becomes a CRO deal zone. Right. Versus an individual deal zone, which is currently what it's at before a CRO enters.

Yeah, it makes sense. I get it. I see how you're sort of viewing all these different entities almost as terms that you can move around the table. I think another part of this that's interesting to throw in here, I get your perspective on it, is that one of the issues that Siros deal with, you know, and this is sort of like the whole premise of this entire business I'm running is the way that a revenue operation is set up right now is it's not intentionally, but it's almost accidentally. And by virtue of the current ways of thinking, these organizations are set up that they have groups of people responsible for delivering a single outcome, which is growth of the organization. But each of the individual organizations responsible for the components of it, by the way it's designed right now have their own individual what's at stake for them that's unique to them, that doesn't connect it to each other. You know, they're sort of like, usually it's common things like survival, you know, recognition, attribution, you know, just, you know, keeping my job. These are the absent something grander. You know, I don't want to get into a philosophical conversation, but. But it's important to know because it relates to this is, you know, a family. Let's say, right? So you and your wife or me and mine, you know, you, you have children, it changes the context of your union because now there's entities more important than your own needs and they sub, they, they subvert your, your more base desires because of something that's more important to you. Absent that, you're just left to care about your own position. You know, companies are like this. So, so if I'm a CRO and I'm working in an organization that is siloed or misaligned, I know that when I speak to my marketing department about any initiative that the context they're coming from is, how is this going to affect me? Am I going to lose budget? Am I going to lose importance? Am I going to lose value? Am I going to lose power? Am I going to lose control? And so those are the negotiating things. And part of what it is that we're trying to accomplish here is to build an organization where there's a collective focus on what's important. And in my view, it should be the customer. Right. So if I were to able then to persuade, I'll use the word persuasion, that even the board and my CEO could be, I wouldn't say easily, but probably convinced that if customers are happy, a lot of other things will work themselves out because ultimately their purchase of our products and their satisfaction with our products is going to translate across all the issues that we have. But yet here we are in an organization that we've designed where the customer is the least thing we talk about. We talk about how much budget I'm going to get and how many resources I'm going to get and how much power I'm going to get. Okay, so given that fact, Right. I'm seeing how negotiation could be an effective way to be a tool in building the right context and focus around getting people to the negotiating table around the same outcome as opposed to each individual. It makes the conversation less complex because instead of dealing with seven people's outcomes, we're all focused on one constituent's outcome and how that affects that. And it's easier for me then to figure out how to get everybody aligned around that outcome. Is this jiving with you? Is it making sense what I'm saying to you in relation to what we're talking about?

And I agree with you. It's, you know, the most important thing from CRO, as you know, is take departmental KPIs and create an executive KPI, which means we're all, you know, looking at the, the top of the mountain, even Though we've all got our individual KPIs, but really what we want is that KPI, we should be all delivering that particular KPI, okay? And one of the best ways to get to that KPI is to negotiate with the individual people, individual departments or people, including board members and CEO, etc. And do exactly that. You have, for example, let's say a CRO. If I was a CRO, I would come and meet all the key stakeholders, marketing, sales board, CEO, etc. I would always have an opening statement where I will say, this is what I'm trying to achieve. I want you to tell me how this impacts you. Give me your top five. So for example, they might say, oh, job security is an issue, I've lost authority, my budget has been cut, what about all the strategies that I've been building for the last 10 years? Now you're telling me we're going to go a different way, etc. Etc. So you hear them out. Remember you're dealing with human beings at the end, right? These, these are folks that you're going to have to manage because remember, you need people to get you over the line. Even if you disagree with them, you have to negotiate with them because that will allow you to work with them. Negotiation is one of the best ways to deal with people, even if you disagree. Okay? So one of the things I would do is I would make an opening statement every meeting with each of the stakeholders. And I say, right, this is what I'm trying to achieve. Tell me your top five issues. What you're trying to establish is what's their ideal and what's their worst case scenario. You're trying to find out that range, right? And within that range, what are the five issues? Which is the more priority versus the other. So for example, job security is that number one for them versus change in strategy that they've been working on for the last 12 months. Okay? Once I've done that across the business with the key stakeholders, I have a perspective now on exactly what the max and minimum are within the stakeholders that I need to deal with, negotiate with. We all know that we have to get to that executive KPI. That's when I start negotiating with the individuals or the departments and say, right, I met you, Mr. Marketing. I've also met sales, I met the CEO, met everybody else. I know. You told me, for example, job security is number one for you in terms of the five priorities that you'd given me. I tell you what, you keep that job if we hit this target. But you're going to have to give up your marketing strategy. So I prioritize your number one for you, number two, maybe even. And I've gone and done that with other sales and also the other departments. And you have to negotiate your way through each one of these for them to be able to go, okay, we were looking this way, now we're looking this way. I didn't get everything I want. Right. But things have changed. But I'm getting my priorities. I am still part of the mission to get there. Things, organization change, as you know. But I know that I've got the key items within that I had said to my CRO that I wanted and he has negotiated that for me across the various parts of the business. So whilst not I've got everything, but I've got the key ones. And that's the key. Negotiation is not about giving everything to everybody. That's imposing your will. Yeah, right. Negotiation is about understanding what is your priority and what are you willing to give up. If I asked you to actually just focus on your key issues, would you be able to give this up? Because if you gave this up, I can take this value and actually trade it with other departments to be able to get the everybody to be aligned and focus on one executive KPI or customer focused KPI, for example.

Yeah.

And that's the key. And negotiation is. I cannot imagine any other way to do this. Because persuasion, for example, I could try and say marketing, oh, you don't need a marketing strategy. You've been working at it for 12 months. We all know it's never worked in the past, why would it work again? The guy will turn around and say, well, yeah, we didn't do this last time. We didn't do that last time. So what happens is with persuasion is opinions gets discussed and everybody thinks their opinion is. Right. Right. And we could be here for the next six months discussing opinions, but that's not what we're here for. I want you to tell me what's important to you and prioritize it for me and I'm going to do that across the business and then I will tell you based on the executive priorities, what you get and what you're going to have to trade. And that we're doing across everybody, including me as a CRO.

That's great. Good. This is great. So we're going to, I want to wrap up here, but I want to make sure before we do, if there are any other aspects of this topic that we haven't discussed that you think are important to mention related to negotiating and the way you think about it.

I mean, you touched upon it. I think it's very important for people to know. CROs particularly, and I'm sure they are always reminded of it, is that people do business with people. Okay. So if you're going in there and making changes, which are highly likely, it is these people that you need to make the changes. So we're dealing with human beings. Empathy is very, very important, obviously. And negotiators, often skilled negotiators, often pretend to be in the other party's shoes. Imagine what it feel like if somebody came and said this to me. Right. So it's very important to understand that if I want to make any changes and I want this person to help me make that change, they have to be part of the solution. People do business with people. All right? So negotiation is one of the best ways. Skilled negotiators are very creative, very empathetic people. They're very driven because they know exactly what they want to do, but they don't steamroll their solution. Right. They get everybody on the bus. And that's because I like you're dealing with people.

I think that when people think about negotiation, they tend to think it's aggressive. And I can see how your context around that is that it's not. In fact, it's very egalitarian. It's a way to sort of bring more options to the table so everybody wins in a way.

Yeah, yeah. The total solution will always be better than the individual solution. And that's what a negotiation is.

Yeah.

Right. Going back to the analogy we used, this is the current business. This is the size of the pie. If I propose and negotiate a new solution across the business, the pie will expand. And that's what we're trying to do. A CRO is always looking to expand the opportunity that is currently there to a bigger one. Negotiation is one of the best ways to get that because you need these people to help you get further.

Yep. This is great. And as I expected, this was a great conversation. And I know that the listeners are going to love this. Dig into it. So talk a bit, just briefly, about, like, yourself and the offerings you make and how people can get a hold of you so they can learn more about this.

So offering is very simple. We do workshops. We do very interactive workshops. They could be two days, three days, depending on how deep you want to go into the negotiation process, how much you want to practice. All workshops are a combination of theory and practice sessions. All practice sessions are video recorded for the simple reason that I want you to be able to see yourself in a negotiation before the other party sees you. Right. And that's where the real aha moment happens. When you see yourself negotiating the language you use, the behavior associated with your negotiation, I want you to be aware of it. If it's good, do more of it. If it's not, you might want to think about changing it. Okay. And video recording simulations that we do allows people to see themselves see the peers. Because you don't just learn by doing yourself. You also learn by seeing other people in the room doing what they're doing. Good, bad, and the ugly stuff. And that's a learning experience. Right. So all of the workshops are theory, practice, combined. All the practice sessions are bespoked around the industry that we operate in. So there is, in the discovery sessions that we have with our clients will try to understand their pain points. What exactly is it they're trying to resolve through a negotiated method. We will build the case studies around that so they can practice it as though it's in the real world. Right. So when they go out there actually doing the negotiation, they have much more control and confidence in delivering better outcomes.

How do they get a hold of.

The best way to find me? Is best way to find me is to contact you.

Okay.

That's the best way.

Okay, great. Yeah. So I'll let you know. Sanjay and I are going to be working together because I believe this is extremely powerful part of Arsenal for Chief Revenue Officers. So if you're looking to put together a workshop with Sanjay, let me know. You know, you can find me on LinkedIn or at warren@the crlcollective.com and we'll discuss it with you. But Sanjay, I want to thank you. This was great. It's really amazing. I always learn something every time I talk to you. And we'll see you soon. Thanks so much.

No, you're absolutely welcome. And thank you for the opportunity. Thank you for the time and I hope the gang, the CRO Gang, find it very, very useful.

Thank you for listening to the CRO Spotlight podcast. The CRO Collective's mission is to help CRO succeed and help founders and CEOs build CRO Ready organizations. You can find out more information about our services at the CRO Collective. That's the crocollective. Com and we look forward to having you join us next time.