Navigating the Intangibles of the CRO Role with Steve Kost

Hi, I'm Warren Zenna, founder and CEO of the CRO Collective, and welcome to the CRO Spotlight Podcast.

This show is focused exclusively on the success of Chief Revenue Officers.

Each week we have an open, frank and freeform conversation with top experts in the revenue space about the CRO role and its critical impact on B2B businesses.

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For CROs, sales and marketing leaders who aspire to become CROs and founders who are looking to appoint a CRO or want to support their CRO to succeed. Thanks for listening. Now let's go mix it up. Welcome to this episode of the CRO Spotlight Podcast.

This is Warren Zenna. I'm really excited today. I have a colleague of mine joining to say is Steve coast, and he's a former executive CRO. You know, he's worked at some really huge big corporations and enterprise organizations and startups, and he has incredible breadth of experience regarding leadership. And we've been talking a lot recently and just inspired me around a certain aspect of the role, which is really more around the behaviors and communication styles and more importantly, the leadership style of Ciro's now vital, that is. And we don't really talk about it enough. So Steve and I met through a third party. I was introduced to Steve through another Steve. And you know, it's one of these things where I think we all familiar with this. You get on the phone with somebody and you just start singing the same song in the same tune at the same cadence and the same rhythm, and it's like, okay, Al, this is great. And, you know, Steve and I were talking about my programs, and I think, if I'm not mistaken, Steve, the initial idea would maybe that maybe you'd take my course or something like that. And, you know, to your credit, I appreciate it, you said, you know, I'd rather help you. I think you've got some really great things going on. So Steve and I have been talking now for a while, and he's brilliant and he's got this really great perspective on a really important part of the CRO role, which is the intangibles. He calls the intangibles. I couldn't agree more with this, Steve. It's the stuff that lives outside of all the operational right and executional things that are important, but what you and I agree are actually more vitally important for this job because ultimately this is a leadership role. So we're going to be talking about that today. And I want to thank you for doing this and all the great content that we've been doing together. So welcome.

Thank you, Warren. I appreciate that. And this is an exciting discussion.

Yeah. So give us a little about your background, please.

Yeah, sure. So I have a very unique background. I have a Fortune 500 leadership experience as well as assisting in growing and developing technology startups in the most recent years and also I've had a board president stint, so have a unique combination, unique blend. But that also provides me a unique experience and a unique perspective on, you know, what it takes to be an executive leader. And as you know, Warren, the next step in my career is looking for a great Chief Revenue Officer position and, and to take all this collective experience and make great impact. So for me, I've had the opportunity to learn from some great leaders. I've also seen some not so great leaders in different environments and I've had a great learning curve from all of that, both as an executive leader and learning from others in many different environments, from some of the largest companies in the world to the smallest. And so it gives me a very unique perspective on the CRO role and what I believe it takes to be highly successful in it.

Yeah.

So let's talk about that because the.

Main thing people are asking me about, I would say if I were to categorize it, let's say I was doing like a cumulative analysis of all the inquiries I get, 90% of them, maybe even 95% of them are all operational stuff, you know, how do I build a go to market engine revenue engine? What's the right way to implement a rev ops function? How do I navigate the data science around metrics? What's the right way to build compensation plans? Like things that are important, don't get me wrong, I don't want to minimize the value of them, but I very rarely if ever get, how do I talk to the board, you know, what's the right way for me to deal with the multi dimensional leadership challenges that I'm going to be having when I have to manage down and across and up and. But yet here's the thing, this is interesting. So while they're not asking me that stuff, like about what they want to know when I'm talking to them one on one, that's the only stuff they want to talk to me about. I'm having a problem with my CEO, you know, or I'm trying to deal with getting through this initiative or I'm trying to gain some consensus around an idea that I have. So interestingly, even though the knowledge that they're asking me for on like a form is always operational.

Every.

Everything I talk to them about is related to people, right?

Absolutely.

Okay, so let's talk about this a bit. So sure. You're. Now, you said, like, your next role, you wanted to be a Chief Revenue Officer. So from that perspective, like, how do you evaluate the types of jobs that are out there to know whether or not it's going to be a fit for you? Like, what are the radar signals that you use to see, like the environment that you're getting yourself into, and what are the navigational tools that you might be able to share with people listening to this?

So from the position of a CRO candidate perspective, it's really the entire process, Warren, from a time of initial contact with the company that you're considering going to work for as a CRO, to the point of which I think is one of the key components of deciding if it's the right fit is your connection with the CEO, that CEO CRO relationship, and whether you're aligned, whether you see a similar vision, whether you really click from a personality point of view, whether you feel like you can build a strong trust and credibility with each other. I think that is really one of the keys in the process of deciding and also learning about the organization, understanding its journey, where it was, where it started, and where it is today, some of the successes and failures you want to try to understand that. And also learning from some other employees in the process that you interview with and gaining their perspectives as well, from all levels, from, you know, individuals that would be reporting to you, and also maybe some other members of the executive leadership team that would be a peer. So I think that collective understanding and ask you some good questions around the organization. What are some of the challenges, help me to understand the culture, what's the heartbeat of the organization? What gets people up in the morning to go to work that excites them. Those, I think, are really important discussions to have around. Is this going to be the right fit for you? Because I can only imagine, and certainly including myself, that a CRO candidate is going to want to be able to wake up in the morning and be excited about where they're going to work. And they want to go into a culture that doesn't have to be perfect, but something that's manageable and something that could be enhanced as opposed to maybe going into something that might not be so desired.

Thank you so much again for listening to the CRO Spotlight podcast. This podcast is an important plank in the Sierra Collective communication strategy, and we're really thrilled to have such great guests on here. So listening and sharing the podcast with other people is really vital because we want to get as many people listening.

To this great stuff as possible.

A couple of things to note. If you're a aspiring CRO or a recently hired CRO or even a old salty CRO and you're looking to either become a chief revenue officer or improve your chops and gain some more insights and improve your competencies as a chief revenue officer. We offer the CRO accelerator course. It's five years now. It's the first CRO focused course that was out there. It's a 15 week course that is populated by aspiring chief revenue officers and CROs. We're pretty selective in terms of who can be a member of the CRO Accelerator course. It's people who are probably like more like ready to be a CRO right now. They have number of years under their belt as a revenue leader, whether it be a sales leader or a marketing leader, or even rev ops leader. And they either want to move into the C suite or they're CROs that want to just make sure that they.

Win in the role.

The Serial Accelerator course, we kick off the next one in May, mid May 2025. So if you are interested in being a member of the next cohort, please just write me a note on LinkedIn. Just DM me CRO accelerator and we'll set up a time to talk and then I can send you more information, give you a brochure of the course. So again, CRO accelerator course, 15 week program for aspiring and newly hired CROs. Take advantage of it, it's been great and you'll see some more information about.

It on the website. Thanks. Yeah, so that all I get. It makes all perfect sense. So I guess a couple questions come out of that.

One is how much can you really.

Derive from an interview process? Right. I mean some of it. Look, it's a weird game of, you know, almost like a game of cups, you know, like they want to hire you and they want to put on their best face because they want to attract people to come work at the company and you're trying to figure out like if this is going to work and it's not like I don't know, I've been as you like, you and I both have been hired to a lot of executive positions where it's rare they're going to say here's what sucks around here. You know, they just don't say that to you, you know, because they don't want you to know. They don't want to scare you away. And if they do say that to you, they don't give you the details. And I find with my clients that they always seem to find out too late. Like all the things that they wish they had known Right. When they had taken the job. And I believe, and I'm sure you do, too, I talk about this. There's probably ways you can extrapolate more information from the interview process than people think. So. Right. So there are, There are less surprises.

Right.

So what are those questions? Like, what are the ways that you would be more specifically looking to things like culture and decision making. Culture and.

Right.

Managerial culture and accountability. The things that you and I both know are going to ultimately affect you.

Sure.

So I think, I think doing your due diligence prior to having those discussions can provide some key insights, such as take a look at Glassdoor. Take a look at some reviews. I don't swear by Glassdoor, but I, you know, it's a.

It's a data set. It's a data set.

Exactly. It can give you a. It's just. It's just another component. It's there.

Yep.

In addition to that, having some conversations with employees that aren't there anymore and see if they'll have a conversation about what it was like to work at the organization and maybe some of the challenges that they saw within the company and maybe reasons why they're not there anymore. For example, I. I think having conversations with ex employees, maybe even the ex CRO that's no longer there and understanding what some of their challenges were will help you prep for the conversations internally and it help you also validate with questions, you know, with that, with that intelligence. I think that would be one way to approach it. The other one is, you know, just to really level set and be very diplomatic in the discussion, especially with the CEO and the elt. It's around. This is a big decision for both of us. This is going to make or break the company.

Yep.

For the most part. So, you know, let's just be honest and fair and upfront with each other about, you know, wave each other's magic wand. If you had the right fit for your organization, what does that look like? And, you know, the magic wand for me in terms of an organization and see if we can, we can align and have that type of discussion. It's all about positioning. It's asking those types of questions. It's understanding, again, I think, I think the history, where we were, where we are today, how we got there, what were some of the challenges along the way. What were some things you would have done different and having those types of conversations? But I think the upfront intelligence would be very, very helpful.

Agree completely.

And I don't think enough people do that. I also think that's some, some of those things they're vitally to do, but.

They also, you have to listen to.

The information you're getting through a very trained ear. Because ex employees tend to have a tendency to be naturally disgruntled because they're ex.

Right.

They're not there anymore. And many times they're, they're left for reasons that they are not happy about. They might give you like their version of the story. So you have to like be able to know how to listen to people's opinions and look through them.

Right.

Or with a glass half full on the other side. Warren, just to jump in real quick, it could be an employee that had a good tenor there and they were developed properly and they acquired some great skills where they decided that hey, my next role is probably not going to be best here. So they look outside and move on.

No question.

So really. So it could be, it might not be all negative. It could be a positive thing.

A hundred percent I agree. And I'd say that that's why you probably got to widen the scope of the people you speak to so you get a good mix of different things. People had good experiences and bad experiences and you know, just talking of one or two might not give you a sufficient readout. That's why I think it's a comprehensive thing. I don't think people do enough of that. They listen to one or two people and that's probably all they do.

Yeah, I think if you do the up, down and sideways, you know, and try to get as much intelligence prior to the conversations, that that'll, that'll help you for sure and assist.

Yeah. And then after that's done, you know, we talk a lot about how decisions are made or scenario based things. And like you said earlier, a good, good question. I like to tell my, my, my clients to ask are things like, so what could you have done differently with key people that aren't here anymore? What would you, how would you have reacted to work that relationship? If you could do it over again and see if they're willing first of all to be humble enough to tell you what they could do.

Right.

If they have even the kind of culture where they say, yeah, we screwed this up, or if they blame the person that they fired, you know, or let go or did or Left or, and specifically what they say, like what was it right. Was it like we could have prepared them better, we could have been clear about what they were trying to do. We didn't have a good agreement on what their role fit was and how to implement it properly. We think we could have probably given them more support because they didn't really have what they needed. And hindsight maybe we were a little bit stingy with some of the things they could have seen. Like that sort of stuff you want to listen to.

Absolutely. And I would say more along those lines. It's a twofold scenario. One is you want to understand what happened with potential direct reports or folks that are on the sales, marketing, client success or rev ops teams and, and understand what happened to them and why they left and what you could have done different with those individuals. But also the one that, that was in your seat prior.

Yeah, for sure.

And so I think it works, you know, and in some cases I've seen recently in a few startup scenarios where a number of the executive leaders left. So I was like, hey, if the executive team's leaving, what's going on?

Yeah.

And so you want to dig into that and it's fair, it's fair game to ask those questions.

It certainly is.

Because it's a big decision.

It is, it's important. The other things too we think about are the company itself and their, their goals.

Right.

So I had a situation. I was hired as a CRO at a company and one of the first things that they said to me, the CEO said to me, which I knew I should have known, I didn't at the time, I didn't realize it was a, as a bigger red flag, as I thought it was, was that they wanted to have the company acquired in like two or three years. Right. That was like their goal.

Right.

So, you know, I understand that goal and I have, you know, mixed opinions about it. It's fine, that's your business model, that's your business model, but it comes with a certain way that the company is going to be managed. If you want the business to be flipped that quickly.

Right.

There's going to be all sorts of implications in terms of the way you're going to be managed and what you have to do to get that to happen. And if you don't have an understanding of those things, or maybe they don't under have an understanding of those things, then, you know, you could be off to a bad start. But it's a different organization than if they say to you, yeah, in 20 years. We want to be the number one, you know, leader in our space. It's a completely different kind of thing.

Absolutely.

And so, you know, I think, you know, there's different types of CRO jobs. You know, it's not just the job that is the perfect leadership role. It's what is their mission.

Right.

Maybe it could be it's a turnaround situation where, you know, we need to, you know, get things going. Here we're in a stall or we were just acquired and now we have to do X or we acquired three companies and we need to do X. So I think these are also other critical things that, not just knowing those things, but how the company is planning on solving those things and what your role is going to be in the way that they want those things solved. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on like, circumstances or environmental factors related to the CRO job.

You know, Warren, on awesome question. And that's why I think to prepare yourself to be a Chief Revenue officer in this world, in today's environment, there's just a number of factors, skill sets, understandings, experiences, and intellectual capital that you that are required so you can be what I call very versatile. CROs today need versatility where they can go into a number of different environments and be successful. Not just from an XNOS point of view, but from, as we, you know, from the onset and the theme of this discussion is the intangibles. So how do you be flexible and nimble when there's change? How do you lead through acquisition? How do you motivate and develop employees when the organization is taking a shift? How do you maintain a culture and build upon a culture where you have a changing organization, a merger, acquisition scenario, an organization that maybe took a step back and has to rebuild, whatever the case might be. And so there's a number of things that are involved, such as inspirational leadership, wanting to help others in the organization and offering how, how you can add value to everyone else, developing a culture of, of safety. And what I mean by that, it's not so much your job is safe, it's around having the ability to have a voice and for employees to share and raise concerns, questions, ideas, opportunities that would be embraced. And I think having an environment like that is very important and creating that type of a culture. And also you want to lead with a lot of passion and also empathy. Empathetic leadership today in this environment, in this world today on March 6, 2025 to me is everything. And I've seen this throughout my career. Where and where we are and how we've evolved. You know, in the corporate world today, in the business environment and what I mean by empathetic leadership, it's when you have a conversation with somebody, whether it's a meeting, one on one, in all hands, and the elt, whatever it might be, having a mindset of, hey, there's 10 people in the room right now, or there's one individual in front of me, I don't know what's going on in their life. I don't know what just happened this morning at 7:30 at home. I don't know what other challenges they might be dealing with, with, with, with siblings or other family members or things that are going on in their world. Because today people have a lot of stuff, they have a lot of things going on today. And I think that has shifted a focus and a requirement quite frankly of an executive leader to be able to understand and have that mindset of, before I go into any conversation, have it, have an understanding of, I don't know what's going on with these folks today. So when you approach a discussion with empathy like that, it really makes for a much better discussion and also drives to the outcomes you want to have in that particular meeting.

Thanks again for listening to the CRO Spotlight Podcast. We're excited about all the great guests we have and more importantly, we're excited mostly about you for being avid listeners and supporting the work that we do here. Feel free please to share the Sierra Spotlight Podcast with any of your colleagues. We just think there's a great wealth of information here and want to get the word out to as many people as possible. And your, your support of the show is really appreciated. I wanted to share information about a program that we offer called the CRO Masters Council. The CRO Masters Council is a bimonthly group of six seasoned Chief Revenue Officers who are looking for a Chief Revenue Officer Board of Directors, so to speak, that they could share what's going on with them, collaborate with ideas, get some feedback on what's going on in their current role. And these are great conversations. I facilitate them. The CRO Master's Councils, again, they're twice a month and they last for at least six months to a year. So if you're interested in having your own CRO suite, your own Board of Directors of Chief Revenue Officers, It's a private, confidential conversation that we have. It's infinitely useful. Imagine having a room full of other Chief Revenue Officers you can talk to and say, hey, I'm working on this. Or have you guys figured that out or I'm having this issue right now with my business or my results. These are just invaluable conversations with Chief Revenue Officers. Chief Revenue Officers have a very, very unique role. It's a very lonely job and only other CROs understand what you're going through. So that's why we created this program. So if you're interested in being a member of the next CRO Masters Council, which we have a number of them being put together right now, just go to my LinkedIn and DM me masters or master's Counsel and I'll follow up with you and set up a call or send you some more information about it. Looking forward to seeing you there and thank you.

I love if you can dig into that. So let's be more scenario based, right?

Because right.

As you and I have already sort of established to, not just now, but even in multiple conversations that you sort of given the sandwich that you were given, you got to deal with the sandwich you were given.

Right?

You're not going to have the perfect sandwich. So yeah, there's going to be stuff you're going to come up against. One of them, as you said, is this sort of empathetic issue where you've got multiple generational people in your organization whom need to be communicated with things differently. So let's say you're in a situation where you're about to have, I don't know, I ask you to kind of pick a scenario you think where empathy would be an appropriate thing and also how it would be executed. Like what would be the way in which or the manner in which a CRO with that quality or that competency would open a discussion with somebody to improve its outcome. So maybe even example that you have had your own.

Yeah, I'll give you an example. So company just let three or four people go right before a, let's say a, a revenue team meeting, sales and marketing, rev ops team meeting, monthly team meeting and three days before four or five employees will let go in the organization. Coming into that meeting you have, you have mindsets that could be scrambled all across that, that room or that zoom call. And something you touched on Warren, which is really important is the multi generational mindset today you have from Gen Z's to Gen X and everything in between and how everybody views, circumstances, environments, company culture, communication styles from a different lens. And so as a, as a CRO, going into that monthly meeting after four or five people were just let go, you're going to have people in that room that are having all Kinds of different feelings. So the way to handle that and what I've done in my experiences and running those meetings and being part of those is getting the elephant out of the room, quite frankly, and talking about, you know, why some individuals are let go and, and the direction of the organization and why it's in the best interest of all and the thinking behind it. I think being transparent and providing transparent leadership is everything now. You don't have to go into details. Some of those employees might have been let go for, for reasons that are confidential in nature. But as much as you can, you want to be transparent with people in the room and give them an understanding of, you know, where the company's going and why we're going in the direction we are. You can't even talk about a monthly sales marketing, rev ops, client success meeting, organizational meeting without really had, without really setting the tone and providing some empathetic approach with transparency about what's actually going on in the organization in order to even have an effective meeting like that. So I would take the first five to 10 minutes, talk that through, answer questions and then also and try to keep even keeled along the way, knowing that you're going to have a multi generational workforce in that meeting and understand if you have an understanding of how people think in different, you know, generations trying to stay, you know, trying to create a message that's going to resonate with all of those individuals from that understanding of a multi, multi generational, you know, mindset and then from that point come out something, you know, come out of that discussion positive and head into the final part of that discussion with that monthly meeting, you know, agenda where people are feeling valued, they feel like this is the place for them to be. They understand why decisions were made, they appreciate the transparency and the understanding and then you can have a successful meeting from that point.

Got it?

Yeah.

So it's like read the room and talk to what's there, not obfuscate or avoid the realities of what's happening and be empathetic towards what people are probably experiencing right now.

And I would set the tone for time frame too because if you open it up for a few questions. Oh yeah, regarding that initial opening, that can go for four hours easy.

I've been in this situation, believe me.

So that's interesting other situation.

I find this is an interesting one. I like to get discusses. Probably the one I hear most.

Are.

In a situation where, as you know, like all CRO jobs are sort of, you know, they're, they're somewhat bespoke Right. Based on the company they're with.

Right.

It's. It's a weird job. It's got, like, a lot of definitions to it, unfortunately, what you're trying to fix.

But.

And the big, let's say, challenge that my CRO clients have is they're in the job. They have a job, and maybe they're in it for a while and they're finding that there's ideas they have or strategies they want to propose or implementations they want to do, and they can't get leadership to give them the authority to do it and the resources to do it. And they're fighting with leadership to gain more influence over how things are being done. They feel they're more at the affect of decisions as opposed to being at the table. And, you know, even though they have this job, they have this CRO job, they're still somewhat marginalized in a section of it. And they haven't learned how to maybe communicate or manage their way to increase the credibility and impact they can have. And they don't know how to do it. They almost say me, almost like, yeah, you know, my boss never listened to me. I brought it to him. He never says no. So they've sort of given up. And in a way now they've. They're demotivated and they don't have any impact and they feel frustrated. So you're a CRO. Look, kind of get your point of view on this and you're in that situation where you're seeing decisions are being made, let's say, across the other parts of the revenue operation, you know, are not going to work or they're going to have problems and they seem to not be listening to you despite the fact that you have good ideas. What's the way in which you propose. You know, I get to get too detailed, but just a general idea of like, how a CRO gains more credibility and influence over the people that work with him so that they can have more agency in the way things are being done.

Yeah. So. So, Warren, So having been on a few elts.

Yep.

As a global head of sales and marketing and been board president, so I have a pretty good understanding of the scenario. I think it really. I want to take a step back. It really starts with the interview process and the hiring process and quite frankly, the onboarding process and the ELT integration. From the onset of your role, entering an organization. I find that in some scenarios, and I'm sure you see this too, organizations just aren't ready for the CRO role. They're not their foundation is not established. To really understand what that role is, the importance and significance of that role, and having the ability to allow for a smooth transition of that role, even from the onset into the elt, integrating properly and effectively and successfully. I think so. One with that step back, vetting out with the CEO and other ELT members in the interview process, what your intentions are, the value you can bring to the organization, how you can help one another in a reciprocal way, and the value that can bring you can bring to their world and some examples of things that you've done in your career to bring value and also to vet out budgets, direction, vision, and where you'd like to take the organization. I think that alignment up front, both from an interview point of view as well as the integration into the elt, really establishes the tone of where this relationship with the organization is going to go. As a CRO, the CRO is becoming, as you know, Warren, you're preparing CROs for entry and you're preparing CEOs to hire them. Yeah, to hire them, exactly. And creating the correct foundation for success.

Yep.

With that, you know, CROs are becoming and should be probably the most important role in that company because it's driving growth, it's driving revenue from many different angles. As you know, a CRO, everything they do is monetization. They're monetizing everything that they do, from the ideas from the CEO to an idea from an elt, from an idea from anybody on their teams to partnerships to the entire ecosystem. They're monetizing, monetize, monetize, monetize. Okay, how can we make, turn that into dollars now? Can we do it quickly and how's it going to affect the bottom line, what's the margins, etc.

Everything.

It's all of that. So that's one, two is if we get downstream six months, nine months, 12 months, two years into it. And there's a challenge that comes up, you know, in, you know, within the organization and the process and, and we find that, you know, maybe there's an idea that the c, hey, we're facing this challenge right now. We want to accelerate growth. We have, maybe we have something, you know, a cognitive system right now that we want to overcome. Maybe there's something that's happening in the market that's causing a challenge and that CRO surfaces an idea to the CEO or the elt, maybe at an ELT meeting or one on one with the CEO or the CFO or whatever it might be. I think the CRO has To have the ability to communicate that in a way that's fair and balanced. Meaning that sometimes the approach the CRO takes would be maybe too self served and say, hey, I think this is something we should do and invest in because of X. But I think if they equate that to Y, meaning that why should we do it? Why it's important to the organization, why it's important to the elt, why it's important to the board and our investment community, etc. And they present the solution to the problem with a great balance and great and across the spectrum. I think if they take that approach, it might be more well received. And again with the monetizing piece of it saying that, okay, if we make this decision and we do this six months from now, nine months from now, 12 months from now, here's what we can expect from a return and here's how it's going to impact the organization long term. So I think it's one, getting all of the ducks aligned up front in the interview and integration process and onboarding two is creating great balance in that discussion and the approach that you take and the style that you take in presenting that problem challenge and its recommended solution. And then the third piece is always fall back on. Hey, remember when I joined the organization, we were aligned. We were building a credibility and a trust together that if I was to come with an idea or a solution that was going to make make business sense, that we were going to create alignment on that and that we were going to come to an agreement on that. And we had that discussion in the interview process, even during the onboarding process. So always remind them of that discussion that we had from that point and then maybe that would reset their mindset on. Yeah, you're right, we did. And maybe I should rethink this or relook at this.

Yeah, I am completely in agreement with you that in almost all the cases, not all, but in all the cases when I have these conversations with my clients that are in this situation, I could track it back to some way in which they didn't create a service level agreement with, with the organization when they first got the job because they didn't do the proper setup for that. They didn't do it, you know, and they ended up in a situation where they sort of let the authority and autonomy component of their job come too loose.

Right.

And they maybe even intentionally avoided asking tough questions because they just wanted to say yes to the job and then it bit them in the ass like six months later when all of A sudden they find out that now they don't have the authority that they wanted. And they realize that they should have asked for it. But in the back of their minds, they're thinking, I hedged because I was afraid that if I asked for it, they wouldn't hire me and I wanted the job, right? So I sort of made a deal with myself in a way, and I think that's. That's a really bad thing to do. I think you really have to, in this job, the CRO job, you have to get the job. The four things I talk about in my course are you need authority, autonomy, resources, and Runway to do your job. And the Runway is the hardest one to get always. But you need it, right? You do need to know that you have time to implement things that take time, right? There's long term outcomes and short term ones. But to your point up front, is when this has to happen. And I think, you know, training incoming CROs to do their due diligence properly and ensure that, look, I know what I'm going to need to succeed here. And I want to know if you guys are willing to give it to.

Me or not, right?

And that if we do that, we agree to it and it's baked into the way that I manage. So that. And support it, and that's one thing. But then, you know, you got other situations where this is an interesting one. And I know, you know, this is. You make that assessment, you come to that agreement, and then six months later, they renege on it. Like they just are not doing it, you know, And I agree with you that, you know, you certainly have the ability to throw that back in their face or remind them and say, look, dude, we, we. When we got hired, I, I have record of our conversations specifically about these things. And I think they're. What I've had some clients say to me is, this is interesting. Is, Yeah, I. It's true. You know, we did have that conversation, and maybe I should have been more vocal about this, but, you know, at the time we made those agreements, I didn't have the experience that I have with you. You know, I was sort of making agreements based on, like an understanding of things. But having had you in the job now for six months or a year.

I'm not too sure I feel confident.

In giving you that authority now. And I guess I've been holding back because I don't. And it's showing up in the way that I'm managing you. So let's talk about that. So you then, as a CRO, you sort of have to be willing to listen to those things and find out what broke down here, like what happened, like, did I do something that I let you down, that I disappoint you? Where is this lack of confidence coming from?

Right.

Is it a misunderstanding? Is it a misperception? Is it a culture thing? Whatever it is, you have to dig into it and not ignore it. And I think this is a mistake I see a lot of CROs make.

And I think how to overcome that mistake is a couple ways more. And something that you're doing wonderfully with CRO Collective is one really helping the CEO to understand what the CRO role means, how that role could evolve in the organization, what the power of that role could be, and what that's going to entail. Because there are going to be things that are going to happen in that role. And with that, that, that evolution of the CRO, CRO value that's going to be brought to that organization where things are going to evolve and decisions are going to have to be made.

Yep.

Etc. So I think there's, you know, there's a number of things that, that it could do. The second piece of it is I think it's really important for communication. I think communication is key in this entire process and the relationship between the CRO and specifically the CEO and the ELT and the board for decisions to be made. And I think communication is everything. Communication is everything in life. It is to avoid that crossroads that you just described with the CEO where they say, you know what? I'm not ready for this. I think it could be avoided, quite frankly, when there's open communication, frequent communication. And I think it's important for the CRO to continue to validate how things are going. Having frequent conversations around. Is there anything else I could be doing for the organization? Do you have any concerns at this point? Is there anything I can help overcome for you? And then making sure that there's complete alignment and open communication and that there's nothing lingering out there between the entire elt. If the entire ELT is aligned and on the same page always, those types of roadblocks would be absolutely minimized.

Yep, agreed.

I love the idea you have there too about baking in to your job. A cadence of communication that is always open and transparent so that you avoid that, what I call that sort of drift or migration away from your original agreement that a communication would have maintained it. You know, there's a guardrail you have to stay on in a way. Right.

You know, Warren, there's something that you mentioned too. I just want to, if you don't mind. Sure. Please add a thought because you brought it up. Time management.

Yeah.

So one of the things I was hoping that we could talk about today, which I have found, especially in environments like, like a, like a, like a, a high activity environment. Like it, like an EY global where I, you know, had spent a couple years of my career in companies where people are moving so fast. Startup environments.

Yep.

There's so much in everybody's plates. People are moving 100 miles an hour to get to where we all want to go and, and, and hit the numbers and all this. But as an executive leader in a CRO seat, and any executive leader beyond the seat, the entire elt, even a layer before that, quite frankly, every, you know, anybody that's in a leadership or management role, one of the best practices that I've learned in my career and I've, I've coached and mentored and helped develop other leaders is taking 30 minutes a day. 30 minutes a day. And I've gotten pushback from this. Like there's no way I can do that. 30 minutes a day. I'm too busy 30 minutes a day to just reflect. Shut down the phone, no meetings, block off, look at every day and say I gotta, if, even if I have to work, you know, an extra hour a day, block off that 30 minutes to reflect. And that reflection includes. Is there anything I'm missing? How can I redirect my efforts and my focus right now to stay on track for what I need to be doing? Are there any employees that I can reach out to today to see how their day is going, anything I could do to help them, any meetings I can schedule that would make sense, Any communications I need to make with the ELT right now, or is there something that I might have missed maybe last week that I didn't think about and do that? I think that reflection every single day is going to provide that leader the opportunity to be the best that they can be in their role. And I've seen leaders over and over again that could have been much more successful that just didn't take the time to reflect on their own organization, their own focus, what things they might be missing, what could they do to make things better? How can they help to improve? And taking 30 minutes a day just to reflect will make a world of difference for I challenge any executive out there to do that. Take 30 minutes a day to reflect, and I promise it'll make a huge difference, not only in their job, but in their life.

Yeah, it's great. I don't do that. I don't. I catch moments, but I. I could see the value and creating a space literally of no distractions where I'm just doing nothing but looking at the bigger picture.

Warren. It comes down to people just don't have time to think.

Yeah.

How about taking some time to think?

Yeah.

You know, it. It really makes, especially as a leader or manager, makes a huge difference.

Yeah, it's great. It's a good practice. It's like a meditative sort of approach. And I think that if you're making big decisions, I think you're probably less likely to knock furniture over. That can have big implications if you take the time to do that. Correct.

Because one decision.

Yeah, forget it.

Could rule a lot of things.

Oh, yeah. Your decisions impact too many things. You know. You know, if I just move a chair, you know, it's not just me moving a chair. It's literally like seven people are impacted by an entire new, you know, operating system. Exactly, exactly. And it's great. I love it. I think it's really interesting and, you know, one, I want to make sure we talk about a couple things we've discussed so that I appreciate you bringing that in is. So when you're brought into an organization as a leader in the C suite, a vital part of the onboarding is your relationship with the other leaders and making sure that you integrate with this existing swim. You know, they're already swimming in a certain direction in a certain way, and now you're yielding into an incoming already existing traffic. So how do you. What's your thoughts on the right way for a new CRO to enter into a ELT organization effectively?

Yeah.

So couple things, Warren. One is it again, it really could start if you had the opportunity to interview with ELT members. It starts in the interview process and getting. And because building, building credibility starts with the initial impression people decide on you within could decide within 30 seconds whether they are going to like working with you, they're going to want you to be on the elt, et cetera. That can happen in the interview process. So in that interview process, my recommendation would be, and what I have had the opportunity to do on numerous occasions is learn about what's important to that ELT member, help them understand your intentions and what the value you're going to want to bring to the organization. What's driving you and your passion towards. Towards the impact you like to make. And I think the forefront of your mind is how can I build credibility Very quickly with my ELT counterparts, what can I do to add value to what they want to do? Because their thought process is how is Steve going to help me?

Or how might Steve not help me or get in my way?

Absolutely. So it's all about building an initial trust and credibility quickly. And you do that by having a servant leadership mindset is how can I help you? It's svp, a product, how can I help you? Cmo. And sometimes CMO reports to the CRO, but in some cases it doesn't, depending on the structure and the culture. How can I help you? Chief Operating Officer? What's important to you and how can I help you in my role? And quite frankly, before you enter the organization, I would actually write a little playbook on how am I going to help the coo? Because I learned in the interview with the coo, he or she, you know, what's important to them. And so, wow, you know what, that's how I can help Jean. I can help her with this or that. I can give some, I can provide some insights to that. And here's how I can add some value on the product side. You know, maybe it's bringing in that product leader to some meetings so that you hear from the client firsthand on what's important to them on a roadmap, for example, so they can continue to build that roadmap and make enhancements to the product evolution. So I think it's really creating a little playbook on how can I help the ELT be more successful and add value to each one of those members in a servant mindset and a servant approach versus the last thing a CRO wants can do is come in with, with a mindset of yep, I'm the CRO, this is what I'm going to do and basically get out of my way. That's the worst thing you can do. It's more around how can I help the ELT be more successful and elevate their performance and help them hit their MBOs, etc vs what's it? I already know what I'm going to be able to do. I know what I'm going to be able, I know what I need to do, but it's about helping them. And I think if you can add value quickly in the process, first 30, 60 days, that's like, wow. Then, then what happens is that SVP a product goes to the CEO and says, wow, I just want you to know, and I've had this happen a few times in my career. Hey, you know what, Steve? Really helped me. He was able to do this for me and did that for me. I'm really glad he's here. And then if you can get that to happen within the first 30 to 60 days from the entire ELT, that would be a home run. However, I will caution there's going to be ELT member ELT members that'll be cautious. They'll have the caution flag out for a while. It's like, you know, maybe they didn't interview with you, they don't know you well. What we want to do is leverage the ELT members that you built some rapport with in the beginning and have somewhat of a credibility and trust and they can help basically with their comfort level with you. Kind of forward that comfort level to other ELT members.

Yeah, it's interesting what you're saying. This servant meant mentality, which I think is great. You're sort of disarming yourself. You're removing yourself as a threat and being more of a value add. And I think that's a smart way to integrate yourself with any existing thing. I think the unique thing, however, about the CRO role is that it is inherently disruptive. I mean, if you bring on a CRO, the way you and I are talking about it, you are going to be displacing things. You know, your, your role is usually a change role. It's intended to bring disruption of sorts.

Right.

Because in, in the way you and I are talking about it. I mean, if someone's hiring chief revenue officer to a company, they're going to be essentially making a decision that they want a different level of leadership and a different structure of leadership because they've determined that misalignment and other things are a problem and that there are existing structures and reporting structures that don't work anymore. And you're the representation of this new thing. So you're already. Your job is a threat.

Right.

So to your point, I mean, I would make, make sure that I'm speaking to the leadership that I'm interviewing with about what's your plan for integrating me into the elt? So what are they, what is the way in which you've communicated this role to them? How are they being set up for this? What did you tell them? What's their understanding or expectation of this particular change? Do they know you're interviewing people and what are they thinking about it right now and how are you handling that? Because I'm going to be walking into whatever environment you've created and I want to know what that is. You know, I mean, I would want to know, you know. Well, we really haven't mentioned it. We're sort of waiting. Okay, well that's not cool. Let's, let's figure out a way to do that together.

Right.

Or we have and we've told them and maybe you're listening to the way they've set it up so that you can understand the nature of their communication and whether it's consistent with what you think makes the most sense. Maybe you can help impact it a bit. Say, well, maybe we should, you know, do this so that you can have a bit of a say in the way in which you're being integrated. Because you come to the table with a good idea of what a good way to do this would be. I think this is, again, it seems thematically going back to the same thing is like, you got to do this stuff up front. A lot of this is done up front so that you can get it done properly.

Exactly. Warren. I would just add where I found the most success and I've had the opportunity to learn with these unique experiences in my career is before you even have that conversation with the elt before, whether it be as a group, as a team, or whether it be individually with an ELT member is in that onboarding scenario. You wanna spend some one on one time with that ELT member outside of work, get them out to have a discussion, get to know them on a personal level, make that connection outside of the X's and O's. And I think if you're able to do that and they have a comfort level with you and they see the real human side of you, not the CRO side, but the human side, like Steve's a human, Steve's vulnerable. Steve, you know, Steve's not perfect, you know, and they see that vulnerability and they see that empathetic, you know, mindset and, and, and that, wow, I, I, I really like Steve. Because if they like you and they want to work with you, that conversation that you just described is a lot easier.

Yeah, I completely get it. I agree. So let's wind this up a bit. I want to make sure that we, we talk a bit briefly about the boardroom. Right. So if you're, if you're in working in an organization that's funded by a third party like a PE or a board, that's a massive critical relationship that you need to navigate. And I know we could probably do an entire podcast on this, but just some high level stuff. I mean, because most of these companies that are being, you know, Managed by a board. The board is many times the silent CEO of the company. Right. They're really behind the scenes making a lot of decisions that maybe you don't always know because they're happening in some closed room. But now you're, you're, you're going to be on the executive leaders team, which means you're going to be having access to the board in it. If you're a CRO, you're going to be a critical person. They're going to be asking questions to what might be a, a way to initialize the board relationship when you're coming in as a CRO.

I think, I think really what it comes down to with the board is trust. They want to trust you. They want to, when they go to bed at night, they wake up in the morning, they trust the CRO. They trust the CRO and they're going to get the job done. They're going to come up with great ideas, they're going to be transparent. They had what it takes. They have the grit, the fire, the determination, the skill set, the leadership, all those things, both tangible and intangibles to get the job done. And it comes down to trust. That board member trusts that CRO and that trust needs to be earned. Now it's one, it's maybe a little bit earned in the interview process because they make the decision to hire you and say, hey, I think this CRO has what it takes. But two, it's also finding some low hanging fruit, some credibility to bring value to the business early on where the CEO can go to the board and say, wow, look what Steve just did, or look what Jane or whoever is a CRO. Look what they just did. Look, look at the value they already brought to the organization. I think the board wants to see results, they want to see something early on, whatever that result might be. And I think it's important that there's milestones that are hit in the early part of that onboarding process for the CRO that maybe even the board's aware of that, hey, you know, Steve's task to hit X within 90 days or 60 days or 30 days, wherever it might be. And if he does that, it's like, wow, we can trust him. He's getting the job done.

Yep.

Also, I think it's in that conversation with the board when we have board meetings that it really comes down to not, not being a know it all. I don't think board boards really like know it alls.

Yep.

I think they like somebody who commit fault. They learn from their mistakes and they fix it. That helps build that trust. Like, we know Steve's not going to be perfect. We know there's going to be obstacles. We know there's going to be challenges. And he's vulnerable and he know he's going to make mistakes, but he can fix them quickly. He knows how to fix mistakes.

Yeah.

And I think by fixing mistakes, that really builds trust very quickly. Yeah, I think it's. It's the board feeling that transparency and that trust from understanding that, that the CRO has vulnerability. They don't think they know it all. They do have all of the skills that they require. But I think bringing value early on, I think is going to create that trust early on where they said, okay, Steve or whoever's a CRO is our person and they're the one that's going to drive the value. And we appreciate some of those intangible components of Steve as an executive, as a CRO that is going to allow. It's going to enable the board to embrace the CRO and to build. Continue to build that trust.

We will probably have another conversation about this, because I think that the conversations I'm having with my clients are the board is a very difficult obstacle for them to manage, and there's a lot of nuance to it.

But I think one of the things, too, Warren, just to add to is it's important for the CRO and board meetings to enable the board members to chime in with suggestions and recommendations.

Yeah.

And to embrace it with open arms. And board members want to.

They.

They yearn to bring ideas and to say, hey, why don't we try this or try that? That's why they're there. They're there to bring ideas and to help grow the business and to enhance the business. And I think it's a very important. It's a very important aspect of the CRO to. To accept those ideas, to embrace those ideas, to act upon the ideas that make sense and to come to an agreement on those and also to help monetize.

For sure. I like that a lot. I agree. You know, there are a lot of people on the board that are eager to help and, you know, bring. Bring stuff into the table and a smart move to give them the opportunity to do it and listen and take them seriously so that you gain that sort of trust with them.

Absolutely.

Well, as I suspected, man, we could keep talking for another hour. So I really appreciate you being here. And this is. This has been a really great conversation. Invaluable. And again, appreciate the ongoing discussions you've been having, they've really been useful. Any ways that you want, what are you doing these days? What do you want people to reach out to you? Or are you, are you what, how do people connect with you? What is it how you want to help people? How can people help you? What are you looking for?

Yep. So always looking to make great connections, have great relationships. As you know, Warren, I'm in a, you know, transition right now and I'm looking for my next home as a Chief Revenue officer. So certainly any connections out there regarding that would be great. And also I'm all about helping people, making impact for others. So if there's anybody else I can help with, I'd be happy to share further insights with any CRO candidates, any CEOs that are thinking about bringing out a CRO and give my, my, you know, my insights on, on that as well. I'm all about helping others. I'm a servant, leader, I and I'm a, that's just my nature.

Yep.

Both in business and in personal life. So however I can help you, however I can help, you know, anybody that you're, you know, that's part of the, you know, process. I'm here.

Thank you for listening to the CRO Spotlight podcast. The CRO Collective's mission is to help CROs succeed and help founders and CEOs build CRO Ready organizations. You can find out more information about our services@thecrocollective.com that's thecrocollective.com and we look forward to having you join us next time.

Sam.