Revenue Growth and Values Are Intrinsically Linked, With Susan Sobbott

The CRO Spotlight Podcast, powered by the Sales IQ Network. Hi and welcome to the CRO Spotlight Podcast. I'm Warren Zenna from the CRO Collective and I'm here with my co host, Lupe Feld. Hey Lupe.

Hey Warren. This is Lupe Feld and I'm glad to be here with you.

So this podcast is really for aspiring CROs and CEOs and current CROs whom are interested in learning from not only us, but the great guests that we're going to have.

We're here to tell you that there is other areas of the business that can drive revenue and we're going to look and inspect and come up with some great ideas for us to bring in as much revenue as we can and drive some meaningful change for the business.

So tune in, we have some exciting opportunities coming up for really amazing conversations and any B2B leaders. I think you're really going to enjoy it. So thanks for tuning in and we look forward to seeing you.

Warren.

I'm Warren Zenna and welcome to the CRO Spotlight Podcast. Hi Lupe.

Hi Warren. How are you doing today?

I'm really good. Good, really excited. Today we have an incredible guest, Susan Sabat. Thank you so much, Susan, for being with us. I'm going to introduce you here. Susan has an incredibly impressive background. She's a senior advisor at Ogilvy Consulting Services and Fintechs and faculty of Conscious Business Leadership Academy. She held various executive positions in American Express for over 28 years. In her career, both in consumer and B2B roles, she was a President General manager of Open Small Business where she put small business on the map in the credit card industry, leading American Express as the clear market leader. Really impressive and I really want to hear more about that. Susan is known for her strategic perspective and her relentless fight for customers, which is something we're going to talk about a lot today, and her passion for perseverance to develop high performing teams. She is a distinguished mission driven leader with a focus on execution that has allowed our teams to increase customer impact and financial results. So Susan, thank you for being here.

My pleasure. Thanks so much, Warren for having me and Lupe for having me. So fun to be with you. Lupe, in this context, after having worked together.

Absolutely, absolutely. I think over the years you meet people and through the interactions and work you find those leaders that you look up to and admire and just, you know, anytime you hear or see anything about them, you're always, you know, leaning in and doing, you know, a little bit more research. And so when we were thinking about doing the podcast. Your name was top of list, so I'm so happy that you're here.

Well, thank you so much.

Great. Well, so, Susan, I'd love to, if you don't mind. I mean, having a career at a corporation, the size and prominence of American Express, especially such a long period of time, it's really impressive. I'd love to, if you don't mind, expound a little bit on the journey through that organization and some of the ways that it framed the philosophy of how you approach your work and your career, particularly in running groups that have such a presence in the public brand mindset. I'm an American Express customer, and so I'd be curious to know if you can provide a little bit more understanding of your thought process about expanding and growing inside of an organization like that.

Sure, sure. Well, when started at American Express, I thought I'd work there for two years. My plan was I'm going to be in and out, and 28 years later, I walked out the door. So, you know, it was a company that gave me a continuous set of challenges and new opportunities that kept me engaged. You know, the time to leave a company is when you look around and there isn't a job you want to do. And that never happened to me for a long, long time. There was always something new and exciting. And I'll say what really kept me at American Express was the pride I had in the work that I was doing. And it allowed me the opportunity to express my own purpose. I am somebody that believes in people. I believe in serving people as a leader. I believe in serving customers. And at amex, I could do that. And so I just kept doing it, kept at it.

Great. So most of the people that listen to this program or that follow both the organizations that are sponsoring this particular podcast, they tend to be in smaller corporations, maybe 150 million, 200 million in revenues. And that's a different experience, as you can appreciate than working at a big company. But I imagine there's probably a lot of consistencies. Someone who's trying to aspire to become a chief revenue officer at a mid level market company as opposed to trying to climb the ladder at a big corporation. How do you translate some of the nuances of that type of an environment across those two different types of organizations? If you were speaking to someone in.

That type of an environment, sure, I speak to. Spent a lot of my time now since I've left American Express, really advising smaller companies, which is so much fun for me to really be able to take those nuggets of experience and wisdom and frankly, the disciplines of working in a larger enterprise and bringing the most practical applications of them to smaller companies. But what I will say overall is that what is universal is that leadership is valued. And sometimes at smaller companies, I notice that there's so much focus on reaching the next hurdle, the next goal, the next objective, because you've got to keep your investors happy. And it can be blinding sometimes that the CEO or any of the C suite's role is really to manage a group of people to achieve those objectives. When you're managing a group of people, you have to understand that it is your privilege to lead those people if you want to get them to be inspired and passionate and energized, to innovate or reach the outcome that you're looking for. You have to really create the environment that allows that to happen. And so that's really one of the key translatable elements, if you will. The other thing I'd say is understanding the customer is always, in my mind, a universal skill set and tool and philosophy. We're here today. This, this audience is about chief revenue officers, of course, their job is to recruit new customers to whatever company that they serve. Recruiting new customers is not about twisting arms. It's really about demonstrating value. And importantly, the way I talk about it, it's about being the solution for the problem that they have. And I use Clayton Christensen's vocabulary here, who's of course the famous author of the Innovator's Dilemma. And it's really about understanding what job, the product or service you were selling, what job it is being hired to do for a company. And in many cases, when I sit with folks that I work with, big and small companies, they can lose sight of that fact that, you know what, you're not selling something. You're actually doing a job for someone and you just have to figure out what that job is. I'll give you a quick example. That's this very well told story that Clayton does. And I'll just do it really quickly. It's the McDonald's milkshake story. I don't know if you've ever heard it. Lupe may have heard me say this before because I use it all, but basically, basically McDonald's is trying to figure out how to sell more milkshakes. And so they talk to customers and they figure, well, customers are getting a milkshake because they want a sweet treat. And so they figure out, how do I change the flavor of this milkshake? So I can sell more. And so they do. And they don't sell any more milkshakes. What they missed was why people buy milkshakes. Turns out most people who buy milkshakes are buying them between 6:30am and 8:30am surprisingly. And they are in their cars and they are alone. Why are they buying a milkshake? To occupy themselves during a boring commute. Of course, this is pre pandemic. The job that the milkshake is doing is not to invigorate your taste buds. The job it is doing is to occupy and engage me when I am bored. And so understanding that is such a critical thing. And it's similar with any product or service that you are selling, especially in the B2B space. You need to understand the context that your buyer is operating within. You know, one of the things I always say to sales teams is you want to make your, your customer, your client hero. You want them to be heroic in their organization. And so how do you do that? Like you don't, you don't, you don't want to convince them to buy something. You want them to be passionate about the decision they have made to hire your product or service because of what it is going to do and how is that going to enable them to have a bigger impact on the people they work with? So in some cases the individual needs to cut costs. So you're going to give them a low cost solution or something that's going to be more efficient. Well, they're not going to be a hero because they cut costs. They're going to be a hero because they have revealed more money for investment, for innovation, for example. Or you may have something that's more, a more sustainable solution, right? It's more environmentally friendly that you're selling. Okay, so why does that matter? It matters because maybe that's the new big initiative that the company has set out upon. Maybe it's because it's attracting Gen Z talent who care deeply about the environment. Like you need to tie the benefits of what you are selling to the role that individual plays in the company. And again, give them an opportunity for their own fame, if you will, within their, within their audience. Give them credibility, give them something that can be celebrated. And if you do that, you get yourself out of this transactional thinking, which I think is so important. And the other thing I always suggest for folks who are in sales roles is to, and this actually sounds a little heretical. I remember when I told this to my sales, I had a global sales team, B2B sales team, they would like roll their eyes the first few times, but it is, don't ask your customer to make a choice you would not make. Right. So if your solution, your product or service is not actually the best solution for the job that they need to hire someone to do, then don't try and get them to do it if we can't do it as well as somebody else can do it. And if I was making the decision, I would choose the other, then walk away from that customer. And as I said, I had a lot of eye rolling in the beginning when I would share that perspective, but they weren't rolling their eyes over time. Because what it does is it builds a trust and a relationship with that individual, with that potential client, with that prospect that will circle back to your benefit over time. And importantly, it will save you time and money dealing with a disappointed client. Because hitting a revenue target that then you are working so much time, doing damage control on is not worthy of that revenue number. You're just. It's a pay now or pay later kind of situation.

That's some great insight. You know, Susan, as I think about, you know, the chief revenue officer role and how it is involved, you know, kind of away from just the head of sales, but really looking after, you know, how you acquire customers, the marketing, the social media, the customer success component, you know, thinking about your product or service as doing a job is a great recipe for fixing all the different pieces that fit within that.

So that's.

That's brilliant. I love it. I think that's. That's great. And I do remember you saying that in the past and, you know, you know, having had, you know, that sales responsibility at the time, it was like, okay, yeah, sure. But it is true. If you can engage a customer and you are solving something and if you're helping them be better, it's always, you know, a great opportunity to succeed. I think. You know, one other thing that I'd love you to talk about is, you know, like, the importance of engaging your team. This is something that you have done very well in the past. You have managed to, you know, engage your people, you know, give them a purpose, you know, kind of enlighten, you know, light their passion and as well give them kind of the real, the real perspective. And so, you know, talk a little bit about that because I think that's something that we could all benefit from.

Sure. Well, I think everyone wants to make an impact and everyone wants to have meaning in their work. In fact, when you research that, you'll see that that need for meaning increases in younger populations. New entrants to the workforce have an even higher need. Everyone has it, but it really motivates younger people even more. And so the implication for that is that you need to have a purpose in what you're doing. There needs to be a reason that your company exists. And that reason is not just to make everyone wealthy or investors wealthy. There's a reason for being. Because you are. You're solving a problem for someone, and you're. You happen to be solving it profitably. There's nothing wrong with becoming wealthy. It's that. That's. That is an outcome as opposed to an intention. Right. The intention needs to be something that has, you know, a little bit a bigger benefit. And I found that in describing that mission or that purpose or that intention is really what gets people's energy going. It lights their passion and, in fact, their creativity. A good example of this is one of the things that I had the pleasure and the honor of creating at American Express was something called Small Business Saturday. And Small Business Saturday was an effort to get Americans at the time to really understand the importance of shopping at their local independent businesses. That was born out of the mission that we had in the business, which was to help small businesses thrive, to help small businesses do more business. And once we sort of unlock that mission, ideas came from everywhere in the organization about how we could do that, what are tactics that we can do. People started creating their own pods to go out and recruit businesses and other companies to participate in this endeavor. So I think when you find something that's meaningful, people are willing to put more of their shoulder into it. And importantly, whatever that is needs to reflect your values. And so I guess I'd say that's the other really important element of igniting your team is being really clear about what your values are. Not in what you say, but in what you do. And that's really. I like to say the culture of an organization reflects its values. And it's the culture of an organization is values in action. And so what are some of the actions? Who you hire? How you promote them? How do you evaluate performance? What are the norms? What's acceptable? What's not acceptable in your company? What are your policies? How do you make decisions? All of these things are reflecting your values. And so you need to make sure that those. Those actions are aligned with what you believe. And if you do that and you are consistent, people will want to work for you. The number one reason why people are leaving in this great resignation that we're in is because of toxic culture. Number one reason by a factor, a multiple of 10. It's not because they're not getting paid enough. It's not because they don't have enough flexibility. It's not because the benefits aren't good. It's because they don't feel that the culture reflects their values. Importantly, one of the ways that the culture reflects their values is that they feel personally respected within an organization. And what does respect look like? Respect looks like don't ask me to do something that I don't think is right. Among other things, hear me, recognize me, all of those things. But this is again universal truths about engaging people. Whether it be in a business or whether it be in life, whether it be in your family. Engaging people is about respect and values and meaning.

That's great stuff. I have thoughts on this and I don't think there's anyone that would listen to what you just said and disagree with it. I'd be surprised if someone said you were wrong about any of that stuff. But here's the challenge and I'm curious what your thoughts are on this. So within the types of companies that we deal with, a brand like American Express is a, you know, it's an evergreen brand. It's likely going to be around in perpetuity for as long as it can sustain itself. And it had the affordability of building brand equity such that it can build a product and context like the one you just described because it's really customer centric and it has a 25, 30, 40, 50, 75 year lifespan. Most of the companies that we deal with are companies that they want to get out of the marketplace in five years and get acquired by somebody, right? Or they were invested by people whom are running a VC platform portfolio model where they just throw a bunch of money at seven different companies and they want to spit out returns at a certain rate and if they don't work, they toss them overboard. So if you're working at a company like that, even at a managerial or an executive level, that's the culture that's been put upon you. That's the nature of the pursuit. It had nothing to do with customers. As a matter of fact, customer centricity is at the core of what we're trying to do espouse here at the CRO Collective and sales iq. But I think the key is that most of the companies we work with, they just want a good quarter and they want more of that pipeline growth and they want more customers and those things all go right against exactly all the things that you were just talking about. So if I'm a chief revenue officer or I'm a CEO of a company like this, and I know this to be the case, and I know the company is sort of set up in the context that I just described, what's the way to navigate that so that the values that you just espoused can thrive there despite that type of environment?

Yeah, I mean, the way I look at it is, you know, by the way, Amex is not perfect.

And sure, I understand that there are.

Many stories about where there were misalignments between values and action and, you know, but Amex has stood the test of time.

Sure.

Many smaller companies, you know, they're just operating in a different context. You know, I was making quarterly, quarterly numbers every quarter as well. It was, it was mind numbing, you know, always racing against whatever that target was and then having to shift dramatically because of one problem or another. And that's of course, times 12 in a smaller environment. Right. And the context of the pressure of your shareholders, your investors breathing down your neck is really difficult. And I know this is going to sound like a little bit of a cop out answer, but all the more reason why you need to have people motivated and inspired to live in the stress of that environment. Because people need to feel safe in that environment. It's hard to feel safe. And when I say safe, I mean psychological safety, you know, physical safety, of course, but. But they need to feel like they can fail and it's okay. Meaning I didn't get this client or I didn't get that customer, and that's okay because I took a risk. Because you can't reach some of these very significant milestones that you're being asked to do without taking some risk. I was just talking this morning with a, with a CEO. It's, you know, she's got a private equity investor, she's got, you know, very short periods of time. She's got to get her numbers to a certain place. And we were talking about this dilemma of the race. And so she was saying, well, I could do this, but if I do this and it doesn't work, then where am I? And we agreed that yes, you could fail in that, but if you don't act, you will fail. Right. So you have to, that's part of the game here. That's part of the game. Like you got to pick a path and you've got to move against that path. The way you pick the path, though, just make sure it is integris it is aligned with what you said you wanted to do and that your values, you're making decisions that are not in conflict with your values. And if they are, then you probably shouldn't be doing it. Or you have to decide, is that a priority value for you or are you just saying it and you don't really mean it? Because that's the worst thing that you can do is say it and then do something in conflict with it. But I do think that people care and want to be proud of the places they work. Even if it's a really tough, hard driving environment, they still want to know they are cared about. They still want to feel like they're doing something meaningful and that they matter. And so I think big, small, short term, long term, that's true everywhere.

Yeah. And I don't know that you can shift overnight if you've been in a culture that's very driven towards answering to investors and driving the results. But you can inject throughout that process and transition to a better culture over time. And that can be done with consistency and purpose. And I think that's. At some point you have to decide, because what you talked about, Warren, that these VCs throw money at 10 different companies and see which one performs well. The ones that perform over time, the ones that are successful over time are the ones that are solving a problem, that are servicing their customers, that are retaining their customers. You know, you've got companies that can acquire like crazy but lose customers and are churning consistently. So they're on a mouse wheel, you know, spinning and spinning and spinning and spinning and never growing, you know, their portfolio of customers to a meaningful number. And so there has to be that infusion of, I think I'm not being.

Pollyanna about this here, where, you know, every organization, every company creates this, you know, happy, shiny, smiling faces every minute of every day. It's more about trying to be a little bit better every day and trying to recognize that you have live humans that work for you and that are working in service to this mission, whatever that mission may be, if it is an exit as a mission, you know, looking for whatever that exit is, whether it be a purchased by a strategic or an IPO or whatever it is that doesn't happen unless whatever you have built has staying power because nobody wants to buy something that's going to be worthless.

It's almost like there's a bit of a Darwinian factor here in a way. Even regardless of the entropy that we discuss, the ones that survive, ultimately, I agree, are the ones Lupe, you're correct. They deliver value that's recognized in the marketplace and the culture seems to sustain it. I do believe that's true. I'm speaking to, maybe being a bit more specific to a lot of the clients I have who are really in difficult situations where they want to be able to espouse those values and spread them throughout the organization. But the type of culture they're in, it just, it doesn't, it's not fertile, you know, enough for them to be able to do so. And you're right, it's probably maybe not the right place for them or something like that. That those are tougher decisions that people have to make, I suspect.

Yeah, it's very tough. You know, investors have high expectations and more and more investors are learning that those expectations can be met if companies satisfy the expectations of all of the stakeholders in a company's ecosystem and not only themselves. And some people are ahead on that curve and some people are behind on that curve.

Do you see that shift? That's a good point because I'm not sure. I mean, I see more and more money flowing into the market now than I've ever seen before. Right. I've seen. There's more funds that I've ever seen. More companies are starting than ever. It makes sense logically that when you see more of something, it gets diluted. It doesn't mean it necessarily gets better. But do you think that there is more consciousness in the part of the investment community now towards these things? Is it trending up?

I do think that there is, you know, in the venture mark. I think that people are looking for ideas that will fuel what's in the zeitgeist right now. And certainly, you know, purposeful impact is in the zeitgeist right now. And so I don't think, I think investors are not. Are smart people. And that doesn't mean every investor in every case. And that doesn't mean that people are going to put their money into, you know, commercial enterprises that are trying to be filling, you know, acting as if they are non for profit. That's not the. It's, you know, it's funny that often I get this conversation about this, either or. Right. It's this trade off of, you know, are people going to be hard driving to make the revenue targets, to make the profit targets, though nowadays profit targets seem to matter much less.

Yeah, that's for sure. That's actually another issue. Right. Is this sort of weird growth for growth's sake? In a way?

Exactly. Growth is all that is valued or is it about actually treating people humanely? And I actually don't see those as two ends of the spectrum. I actually think they're on the same end of the spectrum. If you treat people humanely, if you have a culture that is nurturing and cultivating as well as hardworking and results oriented, those are the winners. And when you look at many, many of the success stories, they often come out of people who have that understanding and perhaps they have it intuitively or organically. Again, they're not perfect, but, but they do have. They want to create the companies they want to work for, let's put it that way.

Great, thank you. Really, really great.

I'd like to shift to something that I think, I don't think I know that you're passionate about, Susan, and it's, you know, women and elevating women within organizations. I know that's, that's been, you know, something that you focused on in your career as well as, you know, you've had some great supportive sponsors within businesses, as I did, you know, going through. So what are some of the, like, what are some of the advice that you would give somebody who's looking, you know, to, to grow with a company and to be seen and be heard, you know, and often, you know, certain, certain folks don't rise to the table of consideration, not by any fault of their own, but just through, you know, organizational bias. And so I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

Yeah, yeah. Well, the good news is I think that there is much more awareness and focus on the issue for underrepresented people in any organization. As a matter of fact, I was meeting with another company that I'm working with, very early stage startup. They haven't yet put, they don't have their product in market yet. And I met with them and it was four white guys that I met with and it was so it was like I actually went into the room and like, was looking around like, is anybody else coming? Because it was so shocking to me. Now of course, they quickly blamed how they were the ones who were there and there were others that they work with and they just didn't happen to come to the meeting. But I do think that people, you know, have an awareness if they are not as inclusive at least. So I think that there is some good news there. Now, having said that, what are the things that an individual can do? I mean, I think that one thing is to really understand how decision making happens within an organization. And this is for anybody. Whenever you go into a New company. You've just got to figure out what is the power structure here? How does it work? What is valued? What is valued? Is it new ideas? Is it speed? Is it new customers? Is it being opinionated? Is it being heads down and getting the work done? Is it being an influencer? Is it being a culture carrier? What is it that people value in this organization? And by the way, I recommend you figure that out before you actually take the job.

I was going to say it's such a great question to ask in an interview of the CEO of a company. That's, that's a terrific question.

So I think that that will help you, help guide you in your prioritization and also in terms of how you present your. You know, I had a boss one time who, he was one of my main sponsors in my career. And I remember that whenever I would send him an email, he would never read it. And he would respond in all caps, like, shouting at me about whatever I sent was so stupid. Well, what it ends up is that what I wrote actually was like what he was looking for was actually in the email. It was just like in the fourth paragraph. What I figured out is, okay, so long explanations are not really valued here, right? I've got to get to the point, get to the point quick and just give him what he wants. And it was actually, he was a great teacher, but it was not pleasant. He was a great teacher in me learning how to communicate differently. And so I will often talk about this advice I give women on communication, and that is that you want to start with headlines and then you go to bullets, and then you go to paragraphs. You don't start with paragraphs. Even though I probably haven't taken my own advice in this conversation today.

All right, a different format. These aren't emails.

You don't start with paragraphs and then get to the headline. Because men, and I will say senior executives, male or female, are so time deprived, you have to earn the right, right to spend more time. And so earning the right starts with getting to the point quick and being very thoughtful about how you get to that point and you position it. I'm not talking about spinning. I'm talking about positioning your thoughts and perspectives in a way that they can be received. And so spending time and energy on your communication skills is great, critical, I mean, super, super important. I can tell you, in my one person's experience of having seen and managed thousands of individuals, strong communicators rise to the top. They just, they just do. And part of being a Strong communicator is confidence. And so where does confidence come from? Well, it comes from what I. A friend of mine, Neha Sanguine, has written a book on Communications called TalkRx. It's not business communication, but it's about the reason why we communicate is so important in living a healthy life. But what she talks about is positional power versus personal power. And if you come from a place of personal power, meaning I believe in myself, I value my thoughts, my actions, and I can share my perspectives based on my beliefs and my knowledge and my skill versus positional power, which is you need to listen to me because of the job title I have. Right. The people who are most successful are people who come from a place of personal power. And by the way, you can have positional power too. That's not a positional power isn't a bad thing. In fact, it can propel your personal power. But if you're just coming from the place of because I said so because you're the mom or the dad or the CRO or the CEO, that is not nearly as compelling as coming from a place of really true self belief. And that's, that's what I think is so important. Now, by the way, if you're overlooked and you know, you do all of that and people just don't pay attention to you and your colleagues talk over you or they repeat your idea and then they get recognized for it and you're like, which just happened to me like a hundred thousand times, like, wait, so and so seem to get all the credit for saying that, you know, some of that is just the nature of the beast. Like that's just what's going to happen. And people aren't going to necessarily be as generous in recognizing folks. But if that happens all the time, consistently, my advice is you're not in an environment that's going to let you flourish. And you deserve to be in a place that allows you to flourish. So you can change that place by raising the concern in a very productive way. Or you can leave, which is what a lot of people do in an environment like today where there are so many choices. Great.

I was thinking about the title of CRO. So many people I know and I'm working with, they get to a point where they admit the fact that the title is very alluring to them and the power and prestige that it represents. In fact, many of the pursuits are superficial in that they want the title. It means something. It represents a prize or some place that they've accomplished in the way that they could communicate that across their networks, et cetera. And that tends to be a very short lived chase.

Exactly.

You don't really get there. The horizon moves away from you every time you get there. And I think it's so gross. I really appreciate what you just said. It really had me thinking a lot about how you have to become a CRO, not go get the job. And that's a different thing. And I totally, I think it's terrific the way you just articulated that. Thank you.

My pleasure. Yeah. No, it is. We are all trained in the world of business for, you know, to climb the ladder. Right? That's what we're trained to do. That's what success looks like. And I think, and I, believe me, I was there hanging on to every ring. Wrong, wrong ring. And I, somewhere along the way I learned that it's not about that next promotion. It really is about the impact you make and the impact you make on the people around you. And if that is your focus, all the rest can come. That can come and you can enjoy it. But it's really about taking on the challenge as opposed to taking on the title.

Well said. I think it's a great way to look at the position and the role and it's really kind of earning that position through your own development of your own power, your strength, your ability to be inclusive with your team, you know, provide them everything that they need. And I think, you know, so often, you know, we aspire to get the title and you know what they say, you know, it's be careful what you wish for, because when you.

Exactly, exactly, be careful what you wish for. But you know, also, you know, I'll go back to what I said earlier. It is a privilege to lead people. And so with the title comes the responsibility of leadership. And with the responsibility of leadership comes the need to be open to feedback and to hear what the people who you serve actually need from you. And that's not always, especially if you're someone who's so focused on what that LinkedIn label has under your name that that can be lost. And a key to success is really understanding how profound it is that, you know, you are where you are because of the people who you work with.

So true. That congruency of being a leader and caring for your people is so, so important. So I know we're, we're getting close and I wanted to give you an opportunity to maybe talk about something that you're working on that's interesting. You know, what's going on in Susan's life since you.

Thank you, thank you. Well, you know, my life has taken on a fair amount of transition. You know, leaving a large corporate environment and now spending the majority of my time working and by the way, having the pressure of those quarterly numbers every, you know, for I can't even count how many quarters and now having the honor and the privilege of working with other leaders in companies, especially smaller companies. And what's really interesting is to see certain, and I've always been an advocate of small businesses, you know, and have been working with small businesses forever as customers. And it's really interesting to see just the wide range of businesses that are developing the almost instant access to markets that businesses can have. And importantly, as we mentioned earlier, how businesses, you know, people who are starting these businesses want to make an impact. They want to do something that is important in the world. I mean, one of the businesses I have been working with is founded by former Google execs or engineers really. And in the same way that Google makes information accessible to the world, they want to make available jobs accessible to the world and make that ubiquitous that anyone who has a skill set can find. Anyone who needs that skill set, like, how amazing is that? That's just profound. There's another company that I'm working with that is focused on mentorship and providing a software platform for mentors and mentees to meet digitally and really physically facilitate the development process that takes place through mentorship, again through a digital platform. And interestingly, that kind of platform is now being deployed to assist female entrepreneurs who, who can connect with more experienced, you know, young entrepreneurs connecting with folks who are more experienced who may have had exits in their companies, et cetera. And so again, like such, you know, broadcast sweeping applications. And this is what I mean about having meaning, right? And doing something like these are incredibly high growth companies. They are taking on many new, you know, huge brands, huge companies that as their clients, but they're doing it out of a place of trying to make a difference in the world. There's another company I'm working with that, that wants to essentially give access to folks who don't make a huge amount of money to be able to create estate plans and wills, something that most people don't do because of the expense of getting a lawyer. You know, even if you don't have all this wealth, you still need to take care of your family in the event of your demise. And so you want to be able to do that. And so how do you do that? So again, a fabulous idea, digitally created using AI there's so much opportunity and I happen to choose my. The people I work with based on them having this higher intention. So maybe that's why I have so many stories on this run.

Awesome. That's great. You know, I think it anchors with, you know, the consistent thread of, you know, your career, as I saw you, your career, you know, post amex. It's always been doing good, whether it was for a customer, for your people, for everything, and then aligning yourself with these small businesses, you know, and I think it's a great result of the great resignation. Those people that are fed up with the culture that do want to change, you know, kind of saw deep within themselves and said, what can I do to make things better? And I think that's just a nice unintended consequence of, you know, Covid and all the things that happened over the last couple of years.

Yes, absolutely. And I think we can do well by attempting to do good. And I think that we can do good even if we don't have, we don't work for a company that perhaps has such a noble mission. We do good every day in the way we show up, the way we show up with the people that we work with. And perhaps that I think is the biggest mission for all of us, which is to be inclusive, to be respectful, to value and recognize those that we work with every single day. And if we do that, the maybe it doesn't earn us the most money that we can put in our bank account, but I think it earns us affection and self confidence and certainly love.

What an incredible way to end this. Thank you so much, Susan.

The words out of my mouth. Thank you so much. What a great ending. This is great. I'm actually sitting here thinking, wow, I'm learning a great deal of wonderful things today. So thank you so much for this incredible conversation and your time and your wisdom.

My pleasure. My pleasure. Happy to be with you.

Great. Thank you so much.