What to Expect In The Chief Revenue Officer Role, with Avi Zimak

The CRO Spotlight Podcast, powered by the Sales IQ Network. Hi and welcome to the CRO Spotlight Podcast. I'm Warren Zenna from the CRO Collective and I'm here with my co host, Lupe Feld. Hey, Lupe.

Hey, Warren. This is Lupe Feld and I'm glad to be here with you.

So this podcast is really for aspiring CROs and CEOs and current CROs whom are interested in learning from not only us, but the great guests that we're going to have.

We're here to tell you that there is other areas of the business that can drive revenue and we're going to look and inspect and come up with some great ideas for us to bring in as much revenue as we can and drive some meaningful change for the business.

So tune in. We have some exciting opportunities coming up for really amazing conversations and any B2B leaders think you're really going to enjoy it. So thanks for tuning in and we look forward to seeing you. Okay. And welcome to our latest episode of the CRO Spotlight Podcast. Hi, Lupe.

Hi, Warren. Good afternoon.

How are you feeling? Good, good, good. I've been on the road. I just. I literally landed at the airport an hour and a half ago. So I'm like kind of in that weird mode where I was sitting in a plane. So it's good to be here. I want to introduce our guest. So guest Avi Z. Mack is a good friend of mine. We've known each other now for about four or five years. Like minded, very, very successful, very cool background. I'm going to do a little intro. Avi, you gave me here. I'm going to read it off to everybody. It's really impressive. So Avi has served as the Chief Revenue Officer and head of Global Strategic Partnerships for the Arena Group since December 9th of 2019. Before that, Avi was the chief Revenue Officer and publisher of New York Media, which is New York magazine, from March of 2017 through 2019. Prior to that, Avi was a Vice President of Sales of North America for Outbrain and also served as General Manager for the Americas for Outbrain. Prior to that, Avi served on various management teams at Hearst Corporation and there he worked toward the launch and oversight of the Hearst App Lab. Avi also served as national sales roles for Conde Nast and Time Inc. Advanced Publications and Ziff Davis. So there's a really strong publication publishing background. But more importantly, Avi, thank you for being here. Looking forward to talking to you.

My pleasure. And thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

Great. Well, so let's jump into it. So, as you know, our audience is primarily consisting of aspiring Chief Revenue officers, people who want the role you have, people who are in the role that you currently have and, you know, struggling with the challenges that come with the role. And then CEOs whom are looking to place Chief Revenue officers and are thinking about how that role fits into their organizations, that might provide you a little more context. So if you could give us a little sense of how you evolved into, from a sales role into a Chief Revenue officer role and what your perspective on the role is. If you were like, maybe even to think about not only as you enter the role, but what your thoughts are on what a Chief Revenue Officer is in your. In your view.

Yeah, no, I'm happy to elaborate. And, you know, as you're going through the, you know, my background, I hear all these different companies, it sounds like, have been hopping around quite a bit. But that's actually, you know, that resume was built over the course of about 25 years that I've been in the industry now. And, you know, for all intents and purposes, I came up, you know, through the industry as, as a sales guy and went through, you know, some pretty rigorous sales training. Zif Davis back in the day, used to be known for that. Where I remember, it's. Yeah, we had. I don't know if you know the name Bob Bader, who is.

I know. Yes, yes, you know, Bob Bader.

So if you went through Bob Bader's central ad sales training program at SIF Davis, you got a, you know, somewhat of a badge of honor. It's actually, it's great to see, you know, a lot of my colleagues from back then, which was in like 96, 97, something like that, you know, they're all in some pretty impressive positions now. You know, some still in the media or media tech business, and, you know, others have gone on to do other really impressive things. So great, great training ground as a whole, just in sales that really, I think, you know, helped, you know, go any direction that you wanted to, because at the end of the day, sales is somewhat of an art. And, you know, the basic principles of sales apply regardless of what type of industry you're in. And then, yeah, as you rattled off, I worked through some of the big publishing houses and spent a lot of time in the Conde Nast and Time Inks, rest their soul, but the Time Inks of the world and really coming up through traditional media, as we'll call it, so spent a lot of time Working at the big media companies, at some of the more prominent publications, magazines of our day, and was there witnessing the morph into digital. Right. So it was, you know, we had these brand name titles no one really knew, or they were trying to figure out how to. How to go into the world of digital. Cause that's where everything was happening. You know, Google was just being born with their ad sales division and you know, the publishing industry as a whole was really playing a game of catch up, making sure that they were, you know, taking a piece of the pie as well. And, you know, doing that for a while. I had some great exposure and I worked with some really great people. And then when I was at Hearst, I actually had the opportunity to step into role. I was there in a management position on one of the titles and had the opportunity to move fully into what I'll call new digital. And that was that Hearst App Lab role that you just described. And really what that was, was that was right when the. When Apple came out with its iPad, its tablet, and as you recall, the.

Was it 2012, if I'm not mistaken? I think that's when the first one came out or something like that.

No, I think even. I think it was 2009.

Wow.

If I'm not mistaken. And the only reason I remember that is because I used to present all types of data and charts and graphs on the explosion of the tablet and how it was. Actually there was more adoption of the tablet at that time, within that first year or two than even the iPhone, believe it or not. It was crazy. So of course, as a media industry that really. As an industry that somewhat failed to make a mark in the digital space, or they were still trying to catch up here, all of a sudden you have a mechanism that comes out to market in digital format that actually translates really well, or you would think would translate really well to the magazine space, right? Because it's kind of the same size. You can flip through things. You also have the digital component of it. And we built out something called the Hearst App Lab, where we had every possible device you could imagine. We had this very specific room. It was a lab that we created with a wall that we turned into a smart screen wall. So it kind of acted like a giant tablet or iPad. And we literally had every device, every operating system, and we would bring customers in and bring partners in, and we would demonstrate what Hearst was doing within that space, whether it was with apps or just transforming magazines into digital media, into digital editions of the magazines. So it was really a cool Opportunity and really kind of got me fully embedded in the waters of digital media. And then through that it exposed me to a lot of other interesting areas of tech and media that I really hadn't been exposed to before, simply by even third party vendors, for example, that were calling on me in this role that I never would have had access or been called on in previous roles. And through that it opened my eyes to a lot of what was going on in the tech space and it exposed me to what the world of startups was really all about. And an opportunity came around to work for this startup called Outbrain. At the time I think I was the 75th employee or something. So it was small, but not too small for me, at least safe enough. And going there, that was absolutely the typical quintessential digital startup culture that you'd read about. And I went there and it was just a great experience. I went there to run their sales in North America and we grew really quickly. I think when I went there we were doing something like 35 million in revenue. When I left after five years, we're doing 650 million in revenue. So rocket ship growth. And that was not, I wish I could take credit for it, but that was just the company, the technology, the ecosystem evolved during that time there. And I got to go into a fortunate position of general manager for two and a half years, as you mentioned, running the Americas. And that really exposed me to doing a lot more with our investors, various VCs, working with a lot of other publishers, obviously advertisers and brands, third parties, you name it. And I became in my mind, and I think in the market's mind, a much more well rounded executive. And that's when New York Media came calling. And as you mentioned, New York Media is the publisher, was the publisher of New York magazine, but they also had a really solid stable of some incredible websites like vulture.com and the Cut, the strategist, the intelligence or a whole stable of wonderful websites, Grub street, et cetera. And they found as a traditional publisher who built out this digital ecosystem, that that background that I had was a really nice match for what they did as a CRO. Right to come in there as a CRO, just as this is the CRO collective. So I thought, yeah, background. So I went from gm, Outbrain went through that background, traditional publishing, into digital technology and ad tech and then back into the world of media or traditional publishing, which then spawned. After a few years we did an acquisition. So Outbrain went public, which was great. They're public today. New York Media was acquired by Vox Media, who is obviously becoming a very big company now. So I was involved in that acquisition process, which was, again, a great experience. And then when that happened, there was an opportunity to come over to the Arena Group, right when they acquired the rights to Sports Illustrated Media. And they asked me to come on as they were building this organization out. And that's where I sit today.

It's a great. The way you navigated all that stuff, it rings true to me from the stuff I ended up doing. So what does the Arena Group do? Talk to us a little bit about that. You said technology, you said publishing. How does it tether those two worlds? Because I think of it as a publishing organization, but I suspect I'm probably not correct if I were to describe it that way.

No, I think that's a great question and I think I would, as an outside view, I would think, oh, this is a publishing company because we've got some household brand names that are part of our ecosystem now. You're probably familiar with Sports Illustrated. As I just mentioned, we also own the street and thestreet.com we just did an acquisition of Athlon Media Group and Parade, another household Parade, the insert that.

Came inside the publication. It was inside, if I'm not mistaken. It was like USA Today stuffed inside there for a long time, right?

That's exactly right. And they've quickly grown where they're now. They have 1800 newspapers that they distribute their Parade magazine within every week. What you didn't know, behind the scenes, they had a crack squad of experts building out their website. And what was about, I think on a monthly basis, they were just doing about 2 million uniques a month on parade.com and what they did is they looked at Parade and they said, you know what? It's great that we're distributed to these 1800 magazines, but we have to reinvent ourselves for the online audience. We know that the majority of the consumers that are reading Parade in those newspapers, they're predominantly men. It's going into A, B, C and D counties. What if we can actually reinvigorate and recreate Parade online for a different audience with different content? And what they did is they created a pretty impressive stable of verticals within parade.com I'd qualified as a lifestyle site. And it's predominantly women that are going to that site now. And they've grown it from that 2 million uniques that was about two years ago to they're doing now over 13 million uniques. Monthly, which is pretty phenomenal. And our plan as the Arena Group is to do what we've done with Sports Illustrated and do what we've done with the street, which is our goal, is to quadruple that traffic within the next two years.

That's incredible. You know, as I think about, you know, content for women, how did they market themselves? I mean, that's, that's, you know, explosive growth in a very short time. And so what was the word of mouth or the communication of what led to that or how did they do that?

I think it was really just. I don't think it was a ton of marketing and I also don't mean to speak out of school here, but we did a lot of diligence on them before we went through with the acquisition. But I really think it was just having a strong focus with really strong editorial on those verticals and having kind of best in class content around entertainment and health. They created some really smart partnerships in market. So they've got a strategic partnership with the Cleveland Clinic, which certainly from an advertising standpoint and editorial standpoint, put them, you know, ahead of the curve from being or having an expertise within the health sector. So I think it was just really smart moves that they made from an editorial and partnership standpoint that got them to where they are. And then it was just audience development, right? They started putting their wares out there, they put their editorial out there. Obviously, they worked through SEO and all the other usual channels, social, et cetera, but very quickly gained a new audience that is predominantly female. And we saw that and said, wow, they're onto something. And we think we can help. To answer Warren's initial question of what the Arena Group is, we definitely don't view ourselves as the traditional media company. For all intents and purposes, we're a technology company. I mentioned those three titles, Sports Illustrated and Parade street, but we also actually power nearly 200 websites across the ecosystem. So our message to independent publishers is it's a really tough world out there. We know that. We get that you're out there trying to compete with Google and Facebook and Amazon and Snap and all the others that are there that are taking, what is it, 85% of every dollar that comes to market. Then after you're competing for that, now that other 15%, you're competing against the big Vox Medias and Vices and all the networks. So good luck as an independent publisher getting your share. And what we try to promote and what we factually do is we make those independent partners or publishers part of an ecosystem where we're all fighting after that share together and they become, they go onto our ad stack, we monetize our sites for them. They're part of our programmatic operation. Now we also have a direct sales team that's out in market pitching their wares where it's appropriate and they get to do what they, they love and what they initially created their, their, their publication for which was to create great content on a particular subject. So our offering to them is we have a custom built CMS that is by far and away much more advanced than whatever CMS they're on in 95% of the cases. It's, it's a version of WordPress. They're then plugged into our ad stack. So now they've got not only our technology but a team of programmatic experts that are running their programmatic get a direct sales team that's there to support them where and when needed. They have a team of SEO expertise and they have a team of product and engineers that's north of 70 people now that are, that are supporting their site where if you look at most independent publishers and again having come from one, I know how many engineers are dedicated to those sites. I know how many engineers I got at my last company specifically for advertising. And I think the answer was half. I had half of one engineer. Here they come in. Yeah, they have 40 engineers on advertising alone. So yeah, that's our business.

Got it.

That's exciting. You know, I want to go back a little bit. You know, as I was listening to your career path, it was clear to me that you, you moved, you know, from one role to another and you kind of leaned into the technology. And as I, as I think about, you know, people who are aspiring to be a CRO or people that are, you know, maybe looking to hire a CRO. So it's those career moves that I think are critical and I'd like to kind of ask were you planning those or were you just kind of curious and exploring that or was that like kind of your thinking as to, you know, this is. I eventually would like to get back to media publishing or were you at that point just exploring a different avenue? Because I look at backgrounds and I think it's never a direct line to a CRO. It's, you know, it's a, it's a hopscotch kind of journey that gets you there if you're going to make some meaningful work. So I'd like to kind of get some thoughts on that.

For me, yeah, I'm happy to answer as best I can. I've certainly been hopscotching away. I think, you know, it's interesting if I think in any industry or any career path, if you're good at what you do, or at least you have a good reputation for what you do, more often than not, you will have people knocking on your door and presenting that next opportunity to you. Right. And you have to weigh whether or not that opportunity makes sense for you personally, for your family, if you have, for your career path. And fortunately, I've had some really good opportunities come my way. There are also many that have come across my desk that I evaluated and decided that this is not the right opportunity for me, that I'm in a really good spot. And I do. I do pride myself on making really good decisions so that when I go somewhere, I'm loyal to that organization and I'm loyal to the role. And I stick it out for at least what I think is the right amount of time to do what I was hired to do. So I think that's really important. And I do think that in today's day and age, and I see it all the time because we have to make a number of hires across the various business units that I have purview over, and these resumes come across my desk and it's like, oh, wow, you were there for six months here and nine months there, and then the four jobs before that, you just made it 12 months. And I don't know if it's just the way things are now. And I think there is part of that. I don't think it's, we're in the days anymore where you have to stay somewhere for 15 to 20 years or even 10 years. But I do think you need to stick it out for a few years to at least build your own stable and reputation. So I say that's one. To answer your question, as far as my chart, if you will. Yeah, a lot of them were, hey, we've been working with you in this capacity. You're at this company. It's great. We have an opportunity. Will you explore it? That's the majority of the roles that have come to me specifically. You're asking how I went to tech and then back to media. That was actually the first time in my career where I actually had to sit down and think about what I really wanted to do next. Because otherwise I was on kind of a pretty traditional career path where I was a sales guy, right. I was at one place and then another job became available, and I Had a friend or someone in the industry who said, oh, did you know this opened up and it's doing what you do just at a better place or a bigger place or a more well respected whatever it was. And I said, oh, follow the shiny object. Yes, I'll go take it. And obviously there's more money and there's more opportunity and you have a more senior title and all that. And that's great. And those doors were pretty easy to walk through. When I was at Outbrain, which is a pure play tech company, it's a content recommendation company, just to be clear. But it's in the world of tech. I had been there for about five years and I knew that it was time to go. And I spoke to the CEO and he's a great guy, great man. And we sat down and he's like, okay, if it's that time, I get it. And he's like, I'm not going to rush you out of here, but I'll agree with you that it's that time. I said, okay. And that's where you really have to start doing some thinking where you don't know what that next door is going to be. And I started evaluating everything and I was like, do I want to go back to publishing? Do I want to go stay in tech? Do I want to go to a big digital media company? So I started going on a tour and really setting up informational interviews, whether it was with friends of mine who worked at these places or if I had a friend who knew someone at a senior level at these places that I could go in and sit down and meet with some cases. I went in and met with the, the HR teams inside various organizations or at startups. I would go sit down and meet with the founders. And all those conversations were really helpful because it made me realize what I wanted to do next and also made me realize what I didn't want to do next or the type of organization that I wanted to work at or not work at. And that was super helpful. And to be frank, going back into the world of publishing was probably the last thing that I thought I was going to do. I'd been there, done that. I was now in tech. I like startups. It's sexy, fun. There's all this growth and opportunity. And then one of the this media legacy or legacy media company comes along and says, hey, we want to talk to you. I was like, oh, I didn't think I'd do that. But I thought, what? Actually at the time, New York Media was Doing was really unique within the space because they had years ago pivoted to digital first. And I thought the properties they had there and what they were looking to do to really be transformative with their business was really interesting to me and compelling to me. So that's the direction I ended up going. And then I ended up coming back where now I'm at a place where. Where I get to kind of keep one finger in the world of publishing and another toe in the world of tech. And that's kind of what Outbrain was for me also, because we worked with all these publishers across the world. But I also, my day to day was very much involved with working with and speaking about the technology. That's great. I don't know if that answered your question.

I love it. It makes sense. You said something I wanted to touch on, right?

Sure.

So what happens with a lot of Chief Revenue officers? Bobby, you said it already is. It's a really sexy role. The title. It comes with a lot of things, I think not only from the idea of it being a C suite role, which already has such panache to it and maybe the promise of other things. It's also a lot of salespeople, if not most sales leaders, aspire to be in that role. And many of them are attracted to the role for the wrong reasons because they see that. They're like, oh, my reputation will be improved. Truth, I'll get more money. I'll be a CRO. It's good to say at the event that you're a chief revenue officer and they find themselves. And these are most of my clients, frankly, find themselves in situations that don't live up to what they expected because they were more attracted to the shiny object than they were what they were really looking for. You seem to have good sense of yourself, good judgment. Most. Not most. I don't want to say that. But a lot of the people I work with don't because they're humans. I'm guilty of this. I've taken jobs because of the title too.

Yeah, sure.

So, you know, when you're thinking about them from this perspective, you're talking right now, let's say, to a bunch of people that were in your position when you were like a national sales leader and they have the competencies, maybe even the right sort of stuff to be a chief Revenue officer. What are the ways that someone should be thinking about a role like that? Because we're going to. I want to get into a little bit more about your thoughts on the role itself, but as they navigate the way you did. What are some of those things that they should either a, be looking out for and avoiding, or being, I should say, mindful of as they move into a role that has a lot more responsibility like that?

Yeah, it's a great question. It's funny. Years ago, when I was at Time Inc. Which was. I was in a group, I'm sure you're familiar with Fortune magazine. I was part of the Fortune group. And I've always had my finger on the pulse, a little bit of technology. I worked for a magazine, if you remember. There was the Industry Standard and Red Herring and Fast Company and all. And I worked at one called Business 2.0, and Time Inc. Had just acquired Business 2.0. It was formerly, I think it was the industry standard. I hope I got that right. But it became business 2.0, and one of my bosses at the time, who had just been moved into a more senior role himself into not the CRO role, but it was like an associate publisher role for magazines. That's, like one notch under what a CRO would be today. And I was a sales guy, and we got along really well. And. And I'd ask them, how do you get there and what'd you have to do to get there? A lot of the questions you're asking me, so maybe that's one thing that you do, is talk to your peers and your mentors and ask them how they did it. I think that's certainly.

Yeah, it's a really good point. Make sure you have good people and listen to the advice you get. Not just ask questions, but do something with it.

That's right. That's right. I remember the one thing he told me as I'm watching him literally run around frantically trying to go from one meeting to the next, and this, that, the other, he just goes, be careful what you wish for because you'll get it one day, and just be careful. But I think the point there is just know what you're getting into. And I think, yeah, that is one thing. Have good mentors, number one. Have people that, you know that you want to work for or work with. I think, you know, that's some of the jobs that I've had, some of the best jobs I've had. It was really following people that I respected and that I worked with in prior lives and respected what they've done and watching them and trying to learn from them and pick up what they do and try to just be a little bit like them and work that into my own repertoire. I Think that's really important. I think moving into a role like this. I think traditionally most CROs, although it's changing a little bit, have come up through the sales and or marketing path. I think most CROs have done some version of that is my guess. Not all. I think that's changing a little bit where you do see some zeros who come from even the walks of life of finance and things like that, business development, I think there's some of that. But I think from the lens that I looked through, which was being a salesperson who I had clients, I understand revenue, I had to understand how to manage my business. I had to understand how to, how to schmooze, but also how to do the internal work. That's the one thing I think for anyone listening, if you're not in sales, there was always the joke that everyone's like, oh, I wish I go in sales because I get to go out to dinners and it's harder than it looks. And there's that always on, that it is an art. But other than that, I think what happens when you go into a role like this, it becomes a lot more internal and you realize the importance of everything from politics, internal politics. And that's another thing I've always remembered is like, you know, internal PR is just as important as external pr. And it's true because you actually have to get things done at the end of the day. So make sure you're nice to the people you need to be nice to and also try to really understand others roles and their business as best as possible because that will help you get things done. It'll help you understand what language you need to use when you're speaking to these people. I mean, look, I'm the last person to say, hey, I'm a technology expert, but I know enough to get what I need and to at least articulate what I need so they can understand it and translate it and then get it back to me. So I think that's super important. And I'd say also get ready if you're someone who, and particularly now in this remote culture that, you know, remote work culture that we work in today, I think a lot of people have gotten very comfortable. I'm one of them, right? Where you know this working from home isn't the worst thing in the world. Some people hate it. I love it. I get to spend more time with my kids. I drive them to school in the mornings. Now I've never done that literally in their lives. Now the last two years I try to drive them to school every morning. I couldn't do that before. I get to say goodnight to them at bedtime. I get to eat dinner with them once in a while. So that's really nice. At the same time, I know that I have to still do my job and meet with clients and get into the city and do that piece as well. But I've also learned that understanding the nuances of the business, understanding the finances of the business and really how to read a P and L and budget and work with other constituents in the organization. I'm in the C suite, as you mentioned earlier. That's part of this role. I have to work very closely with my COO and obviously my CEO who I report into and the cfo. And if you go into that blind where you're always asking questions and you're always, you don't really know what's going on, it's fine to ask questions and you should ask questions if you don't know. But retain that and understand that you're going into a role. We have to work with a lot of different people across a lot of different roles. And then also, frankly, if you are someone who really enjoys being out and about and you like that aspect of sales where you're always kind of on the run, for me at least, and there are other CROs where it's different. For me, that changed as a CRO where I find the majority of my time is sitting in internal meetings and dealing with internal constituents versus the clients and being out in market as much as I was, which I love doing, I really do. I just don't get to do as much of it as I used to. And I think that's something I'd warn anyone who's coming up through this path if you think like, oh, hey, I'm going to be out entertaining and doing what I do and I'll just be in a higher role and I'll tell other people what to do. I'll just be joining them. Like, yeah, you do that. But there's a lot more that goes into the role beyond that, where you just simply can't be out and about as much as you used to.

Yeah, you know, you've hit on a great point there because a lot of folks think of the CRO position as a kind of higher level glorified sales leader and it encompasses so much beyond that. And you have to really, you know, part of being in the C suite is understanding all the other players in that suite and understanding what their role is, what their focus is what their challenges are and how to collaborate with each other and fix things. It might be that the solution for something that's financially driven can be ameliorated by a function in your area. I think that's the piece that you can't forget. You have to know the components. Doesn't mean you have to be an expert at them. But if you can't read a balance sheet, you have no business being a CRO. And I think that's something that sometimes gets overlooked.

I would agree.

If you can read a balance sheet, you could be a better salesperson too. So it doesn't even need that. You don't need that ahead of time.

Agreed. Agreed.

How do you view the role if you were to describe to someone who's looking to become a Croat, what's the difference between someone who's like a head of national sales and a chief Revenue officer?

I was actually talking to a colleague of mine earlier this morning who's. Who's a senior leader who really runs our sales organization, and we were talking about just that. And you know, I think again, a lot of it depends on the size of the organization too. Right. And what your purview is. And you know, if you talk to 10 different CROs, you're going to get 10 different job responsibility sets as a response if you ask them, what do you do? Right. I think everyone's CRO role is a little bit different. But I do view my role as the CEO of a division of my company. My purview is I oversee the direct sales team, I oversee the programmatic sales team, I oversee our ad ops team, I oversee our account management team, I oversee our marketing team, I oversee our research team. And now these all funnel in in some way. Oh, I oversee our business development team. So in a way, they're all touching sales in some way or revenue in some way. But I couldn't say, oh, I'm overseeing sales and that's it, because then I'm neglecting all the other aspects of our business. And I enjoy working with everyone across all those different lines of business because they all touch one another in some way. And you do have to. I think it's. It's partially being a CEO, it's partially being a psychologist, as it is in any management role where you've got to hear about the gripes of everyone and there's some. And obviously then you get the good and balance the good with the bad. But you have to really understand how to balance the needs of one department with another one department. Might want something out of another that they just can't do for a variety of reasons. Some you might be able to tell them, some you can't. So you have to. You have to know that. And you're responsible ultimately for everyone's compensation and performance. And so there's a lot of that. And at the end of the day, the bottom line or the buck stops here. If our numbers are down, the CEO comes to me and says, why isn't programmatic performing? Or why isn't your direct sales performing? Or why didn't the marketing team get this out on time? Or there's a lot to it. At the same time, you can't be an expert in all. And you have to. Again, I might be going riffing here, but you have to, really. And this is what I pride myself on more than anything. Warren Lupe, maybe you've heard this from other CROs, but the thing I pride myself on more than anything is not being an expert, not being a great CRO, because I know my stuff and I'm making important changes for the organization, although there is certainly an element of that. But it's really hiring great people. And if you hire great people that you trust that you know can get the job done and are experts in their respective area, then I can let them go and get out of their way and get their things done and do what they need to do to get the job done. And then they pull me in when needed. If they need a decision on something, or if they need me to connect them with someone, or if they need to come to me for a budgetary ask of some kind, then I can participate. They know what our overall vision is. We're very clear with that, with what our strategy for the company is. We set that, we announce it in a company meeting, and then based on that strategy, I trickle it down to make sure that everyone understands what the overall goal is, what the objective is, and then what their role in that is, and then I let them fly. If you have good people that you can trust, it makes the world of difference and it frankly, makes my job a lot easier. But at least that's worked for me based on my skill sets. And, and I would also say, I guess related to that is know what you're good at, but also know what you're not good at. Because if you, if you know that, then you maybe might want to put a little more emphasis in hiring for a certain role or a few people for a certain role versus where in other areas you might be able to Take on a little bit more of a certain piece yourself. Great.

Lupe. It's like everyone we speak to says the same thing. It's such a people first thing. This job, it's all about finding the right people, putting them in place. And that's the hard part. Because how do you find good people? I mean, now it's harder than ever. I mean, it's crazy how much demand there is for good people and the stuff that people are dangling in front of good people. Because not only you have to find good people, you have to keep them and you got to keep them happy and empower them. I think you're saying something that everyone would agree is that if you unleash someone and give them the ability to be trusted and do their jobs and perform, that's the thing that people mostly want, aside from obviously the, the money and stuff like that. They want to know that they can have the freedom to make decisions and thrive. So you mentioned something earlier before about if you asked 10 different CROs, they'd give you 10 different answers. I agree. I would say, however, I think we probably would agree there's a line through of what the job's supposed to be. But it leads a question which is this. If you're talking to a CEO of a company, when do you think it is? Or what's the reason? At what point in a company's growth, growth should they hire a chief revenue officer? What's the purpose of one? And at what point should you think about it? What would the benefits be as opposed to keeping things just the way they are?

That's a tough question. I think a lot of it has to do with the size and scale of your organization, that's probably a part of it. If you're an organization that's sub 100 people, which I always define small businesses as under 99 people or under 100 people. And those hundred people are broken out into. If you think about the different business lines within a media company or a digital company, maybe there are 10 different teams. So that means that those 10 different teams probably have five to 10 people on each. I don't know if there's enough there to warrant having a CRO. You could probably have. Right. If it's overarching advertising responsibility and there's not a lot of other revenue streams that are coming into the company at the time. Because you're focused, you're nimble, you're small, where there's really just one or two revenue streams. You could probably do just fine with a head of Sales ahead of marketing, ahead of product ahead of engineers. And they each have their. There are small teams under them of three to 10 people. So I don't know if you would need a CRO in that case. Probably once you start scaling above that and there are multiple business lines that are starting to grow in a meaningful way and there are multiple revenue streams that are also meaningful to your business and you're also out in market or internally trying to create new revenue streams. That's probably the point where you bring on a CRO who can say, okay, we've done great in this one area, but it's really time to broaden out a little bit and try to bring in E commerce or subscriptions or third party revenue, whether it's programmatic or other that you're not currently doing or expand that advertising revenue to multiple buckets of advertising revenue. So I think at that point where you do have to be a little bit more strategic and broad with your offerings, that's probably the time you want to bring a CRO in who understands that and can ultimately manage that and make those decisions for you.

Yeah, so what I'm hearing you say is that you can function with heads of businesses, but when you get too many heads, then you lose that opportunity to be synergistic and gain some of the best practices that are naturally happening. When you have a team under one centralized leader.

I think so. Yeah, I think so. And then once you have that centralized leader with enough of those teams, you want to make sure that you're all swimming in the same direction or rowing in the same direction. Because a lot of times particularly, look, we're going through, and I've been fortunate enough in my career where I've seen and been a part of various acquisitions. Like when you bring a new company into your company, I think at that point in particular. Right. Once you're at the stage where you're actually acquiring companies, you definitely want to have a CRO to help oversee that because if not, it could get really messy. Right. You're a lot of, a lot of, you know, toe stepping and banging heads and clashing and, you know, mongering for different things. And you know, if you have someone who's kind of there overseeing the whole enchilada, I think that that makes a world of sense. So you can say, look, you know, here, here's how we're going to do it. You know, we're going to do some of it your way. But there is a, there is a method to the madness of how we do things here and just ensure that everyone is rowing in that same direction.

Yeah, that's a great point. As I think about what's happening in the industry, there are so many mergers, acquisitions, and companies kind of blending together, because it's much easier to acquire a company than build the asset yourself. And so that melding of the cultures is really critical. Otherwise, it could be a. A hazard for you to achieve what your plans were in that acquisition. So. Great point.

Absolutely. Yeah. No, it's the ensuring. And look, we're going through this with Parade right now, and look, they've a fantastic team there. And, you know, we've now, I think this is their third week with our company, and they've been really great, but we're really going, you know, working hard to make sure that they feel comfortable. We're really working hard to educate them on how we do things. And not just how we do things. It's more about who we are and why certain things that we do are working. And we're also asking the same from them. Like, tell us about what's working for you. Tell us how you do things. And ideally. And again, sitting in the seat that I sit in as a CRO, I can see what's working over here, what's working over there, and say, oh, well, actually, let's adopt what Parade is doing. I think that would actually work really well for us. But you know what? I think actually our system doing this might be better for Parade, or we have to do this because we're a publicly traded company and there's certain systems and cadences that we have to. And checks and balances, really, that we have to go through if we want to actually accomplish something. So, hey, Parade, you actually, unfortunately, have to do all this if you're not accustomed to doing it. So, yeah, I think that's a good way of describing it.

It sounds to me, in order for that to happen, which I'll have this as our final topic, which is an important one, is the relationship you have with your CEO, because obviously, you've got to be given the. I kind of have these four things I would say a CRO needs. You need authority, autonomy, you need resources, and you need Runway to be able to do your job. And they all wrap around, basically, it's trust. You have a relationship with your CEO, where in this situation that you just described, it's a very, very tricky situation trying to integrate two cultures. You need to be the one who can dictate what that is, and your boss needs to say, avi, I know you got this covered, make it happen, and I have your back. How do you as a CRO, what's your advice for an existing CRO to ensure that they have that sort of relationship where their vision and their ability to be the CEO of the revenue operation can be realized. Because I know the most of my clients have a lot of issues with their stuff with their bosses. They're not on the same page and it makes it really hard for them to do their jobs. And a lot of it comes from the investment groups and the boards that invest in the companies because there's a lot of conflicting objectives that come from managing finances and also managing customer outcomes. I'm just curious what your thoughts are on that sort of thing.

Yeah, no, that's a great question. And I've actually heard the same. And look, fortunately, the last three companies that I've been at Garrett, the Arena Group, at New York Media, and previously at Outbrain, not the entire time I was at Outbrain, but for about probably 25% of the time I've reported directly into the CEO and going to New York Media and the Arena Group. Part of my criteria, like the criteria that I spelled out for myself in taking any job that I make very clear when I'm meeting with these companies at those initial meetings is I need to have A, I need to report into the CEO. I'm not going to report into anyone else, which by the way, in some organizations the CRO does not reporting to the CEO, which is why it's important to ask that question. But B is to make sure that you have a rapport and a relationship and trust of that CEO. And that comes from. It could come from a number of ways. One is it could be that you've worked with this person before. So it's my initial thoughts on working with good people and working with people who you've worked with before, who you either had a, a company or if they've been some kind of partner of yours, I think that's really important. But if not, then just make sure that you have enough conversations with the CEO ahead of time. Make sure that you're both on the same page prior to stepping into that role with what it is your role is going to be, what the level of autonomy you're going to have is going to be. And then it's ultimately going to be someone that's going to trust you. And I think the reverse of that is that you have to also have mutual respect and trust for what they do. And I can tell you Here, look, we do have investors. We are a public company, so we have to answer to our public and our investors in that respect. And our CEO is. First of all, he's a great guy. And I'm not just saying that in case he's listening to this podcast, but he does happen to be a great guy. I believe in his vision, so that's also super important. But he does give me that trust and that autonomy. And if I think that something needs to be done a different way, or if I think that we need to change something, or if I need to ask for more of something, he'll hear me out. I have to bring a good case forward, and I have to understand that balance sheet and how it impacts the P and L and everything else. But if I think it's something that's going to move the needle on our business, he trusts that I'm making the right decision now. He will say to me, okay, are you comfortable? You're on the hook for it now. So if I'm going to give you X amount of dollars to go create, then you have to guarantee me that Y amount of dollars are going to come back, and I'm going to put that on you. So I'm now on the hook for that ROI and bringing that revenue back into the company. And if it's something I believe in, then I'll absolutely sign up for it. Whether it's attending a conference, whether it's bringing in new technology into the company, whether it's creating a new partnership with a third party that we hadn't worked with before that I think could be advantageous to our business. He allows me to do that. Or whether it's hiring people or creating a new team or whatever it might be, he trusts me to do that. He'll ask me questions. But I think we have a good relationship. And because I have that trust from him, and vice versa, it helps me get the job done successfully. Good for you.

That's great, because I don't hear enough of this, to be frank with you. I'm hearing it's a lot more. It's a very difficult role. Well, look, we're running out of time here, so we just wanted to thank you. It's been really, really good conversation. We got a lot of really good stuff out of this, and I think there's a lot of really good insights that you provided all the constituents who are listening to this. So, any following thoughts? I think one last thing I'd ask you is what would you say to a CEO that's looking for a CRO succinctly, how would you think there's a right way for them to be looking for one? What's the attributes and qualities that you think are the best things they should be looking for?

Didn't I just explain all that war? No, I'm just kidding. I think, you know, I think you are going to want to find someone again who you can trust, you can get along with. Right. I think that's going to go with anyone that you're going to put in your.

I think that's table stakes. I would agree.

There are, again, this is, this is one person's perspective, so.

Oh, we're asking yours. We want your perspective here. So. Yes.

I would not put someone into the CRO position who's a know it all. I would not put someone into the CRO position who prides themselves on wanting to be that sales. Always the epitome of a salesperson. Right. I do think. Again, I do think having the sales background is. Is paramount like you have. I think that that's a, that's a major component because there are relationships in the market that you need to maintain and there are. You thought there's an understanding of the. Of that business. But I would say, you know, also have someone who has that and who you feel confident can step in and actually understand the other nuances of a business holistically beyond just the sales piece. Because if you don't, I think, I think it can get pretty, pretty complicated for them and I don't think ultimately they'll be successful. Is that a. Is that a great.

It's perfect. It makes perfect sense. I like the know it all part. I agree with you. I think it's actually better to find somebody who doesn't think of themselves as an expert in everything, but someone who's more of an empowerer of people who are really good at things. I happen to agree with that. I've met a lot of CROs who are incredibly smart, but they'll get dragged in the weed things and it's not a job to get dragging the weeds on.

You're 100% right. There are people who I work with currently who I've worked with in the past, and they drill down so far in the business and by the way, they're incredible at it and it's made them very successful and I want them to keep doing that. But if I look at them and I'm thinking different faces are running through my head right now, people who have done that. These are some of the best salespeople or business people that I know, but they would have a really tough time sitting in this seat because they have to insert themselves so deeply in everything. The reality is there are not enough hours in the day in this position to do that. And you have to take a step back and look at it from a little bit of a higher level. I'm not saying a high and mighty level. I'm saying you have to take it back.

You have to look at it holistically, and you have to understand how things all fit together and be more of a coordinator and less of a. I guess, like an executioner.

Yeah, agreed.

All right, well, look, thank you. I don't want to keep you giving that comment you just made. About time you got a lot of on your plate, but thank you. This is really great. Really. We get a lot out of this, and I think we'll have a great deal of stuff to share with our audience. So, Avi, thank you for your time. It's great seeing you. It's been a while. And thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and your experience with our audience.

It was really my pleasure. I love the mission here that you and Lupe are out marching out with. I love the idea of a CRO collective, and happy to do this anytime, but really appreciate the time. Great.

Thanks again.