S1 Ep13: Why I’m Stepping Down from Dragons' Den & How to Build a £50 Million Dollar Business… Sara Davies

You are exactly like you are on the show. That's quite nice.

I'm just a normal person and I sit there in the den trying to be a normal person.

I would know whether you were going to invest in someone the second they started speaking.

Honestly, I know by the time they finish their pitch.

Yeah. Meet Sara Davies, an inspiring self-made entrepreneur best known as Dragon's Den's youngest investor and a Strictly Come Dancing sensation.

Sara transformed a university bedroom business into a £50 million a year global brand, establishing herself as a leading voice to inspire female entrepreneurs worldwide to chase their business dreams. Being an entrepreneur, it's not a career choice, it's a lifestyle choice. And because I'd grown up around my parents living that lifestyle, I knew what that lifestyle looked like.

What was the biggest risk that you took in those early days, and how did that pay off?

At the worst of it, I was into it for about quarter of a million quid. I look back now, I was thinking, what was I doing? I would have literally toppled the business.

Sara, why did you leave Dragon's Den? Welcome to Wake Up.

I'm quite excited, I'm not gonna lie.

Very honestly, you can say I have been a fan of yours for so long. I remember watching Dragon's Den pre-you going on Dragon's Den, and when you went on, I remember being like, wow, I'm watching it again quite religiously. And so thank you from like a whole generation of entrepreneurs who— you probably took our favorite show and made it relevant again.

That is quite a— that is quite a statement to make, and that is going to stay with me. That nobody's ever said it quite like that. People always say, oh, I love you on Dragon's Den, but to really give it context and meaning like that, thank you.

It's very honest. And also, I saw on your, uh, Instagram post when you said that you were stepping back from Dragon's Den, the amount of people who were like, you're my favorite dragon. And I remember reading that post and being like, yeah, I mean, that is a huge loss to the show, because I think you can simultaneously be like a dragon and be nice. Yeah, I don't think you have to pick.

Do you know, people have said to me now that I am stepping down temporarily, the BBC are like, please don't go, please don't go. I said, look, the business really needs me at the moment, so I don't know, this time next year might be different, I might be in a position to give it a bit more of my time, but right now I just need to focus on, on my business and I've just overcommitted myself And I think the big thing for me is people always say, oh, well, you know, who do you think would be great to replace? Yeah. And I think, well, I think it's really important that they have a good female representation. You know, Deborah and I, you can't just have one woman on there. You need plenty of representation. But then also it's that it's not even the Northern voice. It's the— someone called me in my first season, she's like the dragon of the people. Yeah. And I think that's— I feel that responsibility. I'm just a normal person and I sit there in the den trying to be a normal person, not a high-flying high-flying business person or whatever, just trying to be normal and relatable for the people at home that are watching. Because most of our people that watch Dragon's Den aren't always high-flying business people, they're aspiring entrepreneurs. So I just want to be the normal person. And then the biggest thing for me is, is just having empathy. You know, I watch those entrepreneurs walk through the lift doors, and this is the bit they don't show you on TV, as they come through the lift doors and their palms are sweating and that you can see the beads of sweat and they're shaking a little bit because they're so nervous. And I'm just smiling at them and giving them all the eye contact and going 'You've got this, you're doing really well.' Because at the end of the day, I want them to do a great job. I want their businesses to go on TV and take off, be hugely successful, irrespective of whether or not I invest in them and go on that journey. I just want this to be— this is a huge life-changing moment for them, and I'm excited for them. And it's, you know, the, the shorts looking all stern, you know, they get them pre-recorded shots coming in. But that's actually— that's not what's happening in that moment.

I'm trying to send all the positive vibes to the entrepreneurs and like, 'Come on, you've got this, you can nail this.' And I think even, even with them editing you all to look like stern dragons, that's probably what so many people love about you. The fact that that is very human, that, you know, you know, I've raised money a fair few times in my life and like it's never as combative as Dragon Den makes out to be. Like, it's just not, it's just not like that. And so it's quite nice that you were like a breath of fresh air in that sense, and that you were clearly like young, super credible, had actually built a real business, and you were nice.

Do you know what? My overall ambition on that show was to show people that it's not— you can be nice in business. I mean, don't get me wrong, don't underestimate me. I can be fiery at times. I think firm but fair is the real thing. I'm not a soft touch, you know. Yes, I sometimes get in touch with my emotions in the day, and I think that's okay, but it's being firm but fair. But just having empathy for what that entrepreneur is going through in that moment and trying to put yourself in their shoes. This is potentially the biggest business deal they're going to negotiate. Of their life. Have a moment to think, what's it like for them? Not just, what's in it for me right now?

Yeah, and it's going to be one of the most stressful moments of their life as well.

So it's like, yeah, you said you see that written all over their face, and you don't necessarily need to—

it doesn't need to be as stressful, I would always say. So obviously everyone will know you as an incredible business person, they will know you as a dragon, but I would love to talk about how you first started your first business, how you became an entrepreneur, because I feel like those stories are very important for people when thinking about, you know, do I go get a job or do I start my first business? So can you talk us through the origins of you becoming an entrepreneur?

So I think if it's all right with you, I might go even a little bit further back.

Yeah.

So, um, my dad is a true entrepreneur. I mean, God love him, he's done everything from going to the car boot sale and buying bikes for a tenner and getting me and my sister to sit and file all of the rust off them and having me grandma run a bike shop to growing mushrooms in the underground cellar in one of the shops. He bought, he got a wallpaper wrapping machine from a skip one day, turned that into a business, and ended up building a 30-year business where him and me mam had a wallpaper and paint shop. My dad has literally done everything, okay? About 50 different businesses in his lifetime. So I grew up in that environment, but my dad was proper old school, and he assumed because he had daughters and not sons that the daughters wouldn't be interested in the business. And we would go on to become teachers or secretaries or something similar. And I always remember, and I've never let him forget this, my dad, um, he had a savings fund when we were born, and the savings fund was going to be to pay for his sons to go through private education or to pay for his daughter's weddings. And I mean, and he had only daughters. And I remember I give him such a hard time over that now, and he sees the error of his ways, but, and I'm, I'm not cutting him any slack for it. I guess that was the mindset back then. You know, you see all of these family businesses in it, so-and-so and Sons. So anyway, they had the wallpaper and paint shop, my mum and dad. That was their mainstay business. And I say mainstay, that was the business that me mum run. Me dad was off trying all of his other businesses from pie and pea vans and ice cream vans and whatnot. But me mum ran the shop.

Yeah.

And I remember it was when I was kind of 13, 14, I started taking an interest in the shop and my dad couldn't believe it. You know, he just assumed that girls wouldn't be interested in the business. And I remember doing Business Studies A Level because I wanted to learn how business should be done so that I could prove me dad wrong. That was my whole mantra in life, is I want to show me dad how businesses should be run. And I think that the GCSE Business Studies became A-level Business Studies became— I took an interest in the business and I went off to university to read management because I wanted to come back and take over the family business and show me dad how business should be done. And so I did. I went to York and I did one of these degrees where you have a couple of years studying, then you go out and work for a year, and then you come back and study. And in that year working, looking, all of the placements were down in London, right? And I'm a right country bumpkin. Honestly, coming to London, still get the heebie-jeebies now. I'm like, leave me out in the country, up north, right? And, um, and I can remember I organized my own placement just because I didn't want to have to go to London. And it was just a friend of a friend with a family. He had started a little business, had a couple of staff, and, and, and the university— I remember the minimum the university would let me go for was £13,000 salary for the year, and she couldn't afford to pay me that. And I was like, you've got to pay me that, otherwise the university, you're going to make me go to London where the salaries were like 25, 30 grand.

Yeah.

But they would let me come and do it. So I went and I worked for this tiny little craft company, and I remember in the year I was there, they were turning over about £200,000. At the time she had 8 staff, and I'll— what, so you can do the maths, they weren't making any money. Yeah. 8 staff on a £200 grand turnover. But I went into this little business and it opened my eyes to this whole industry that, quite frankly, I had no idea existed. I didn't know that people made handmade cards as a hobby. I didn't realise it was a, you know, a $3 billion business. I had no idea. Right. But I fell in love with the industry and I fell in love with the customers. And I saw from this woman how not to run a business. She was a fantastic artist. She had all these amazing crafty ideas. No idea how to run a business. And I think because I was a business student, a little bit of knowledge was dangerous. So I, I thought, I mean, I was the most equipped person to be able to run a P&L and build a sales strategy and build a marketing strategy out for— and I recosted all of her items, you know, and, and I just went through every module that I'd done at university and applied it in practice to her business. And, and for me, business, it just felt like common sense because I'd grown up around it. It didn't feel like something I'd learned from a textbook. It felt like it was just in me, and I think it was in me because I'd grown up around that environment. So my aspiration was always do my year's work placement, get loads of experience that I can bring back to the family business, go and complete my last year at university, come and take over the shop from my mum and dad. The problem was—

and you were 20?

I was 20 at the time.

Yeah.

Problem was I fell in love with that industry, and I fell in love with the crafters. And I looked at the industry and the industry was littered with people just like the woman I worked for who were artisans who turned their hobby into a business and didn't know how to run a business, or they were businessmen who didn't understand our customer and didn't really give a monkey's about the customer. It was just about making money. And back then, like in the mid-2000s, like 2004, 2005, money was growing on trees. I mean, it was, it was just this industry was booming. There was little craft shops opening up on every corner. You couldn't not make money. It was the real boom time. And so I had all of these ideas for stuff I could do and, you know, gaps in the market, product ideas. And I remember coming home and my dad is very much a can-do, you know, and I had a head full of magic and all these ideas. And my dad was like, well, go and do something about it. And if I'm doing something, I'm doing it yesterday. So there was no way I was waiting till I finished my degree or finished at uni. I started the business Crafters Companion as a bit of a side hustle in my last year of uni. So I used to run it from my university bedroom, get the other students to help us. And then the problem was, I graduated in the May, June time the next year, and Crafter's Companion after 9 months was turning over more than my mum and dad's business was after 25 years. And so I came back and I was like, well, I guess I'm in the craft industry. And the rest's history.

The business at the time, what was it? What was it selling? How was it making its money? You know, online at the time, was that—

TV shopping. Yeah, TV shopping has been the cornerstone of my, my whole success. Okay, so QVC is the big shopping channel, but there was, there was always this secondary channel in the market called Ideal World. And basically all the companies that weren't big enough or impressive enough to get a slot on QVC would go to Ideal World. And so Ideal World had built quite a craft segment. They used to do craft 2 hours on a Sunday afternoon. And I remember the woman that I worked for to help grow her business. I suggested that she went on TV and sold her rubber stamps. She was doing on TV and she did the first time. So they were rubber stamps. If you imagine, she would draw something.

Yeah.

And then we would make it into a rubber stamp. And then we'd sell it to the crafters. So what they do is they ink up the stamp, stamp it, and then they've recreated her drawing. So she went on TV and this was great, you know, we'd sell hundreds and hundreds of these rubber stamps. Then she couldn't be bothered to keep going to Peterborough to go on the TV shows, so I learned how to craft so that I could go on the TV and sell her rubber stamps. And I would wax lyrical about what an amazing artist she was, and you could create that look. And I realized my superpower is selling, not the art, I'm not the art, not the craft side of it, it's just the selling. And TV shopping is amazing if you love selling. It's like a glorified market stall basically. And so, and I learned to craft so that I could go on TV and sell her items. And I remember having all these ideas and going to her and saying, I think there's an opportunity in the market for this, I think there's an opportunity for that. And she just looked at me like I had 3 heads. She's like, you're the business student, You— I don't tell you how to do business, don't tell me how to do craft.

Yeah.

And so she thought my ideas were rubbish. And I remember that, that's when my dad said to me, do it yourself, kid. And I went to the buyer at the Shopping Channel and said, I've got all these ideas that she wasn't interested in. If I can make them, can I come on your channel and sell them? And they were like, yeah, of course you can, because they can see I can sell. And so my first product was an idea called the Envelope, and it was all about making handmade envelopes. To fit your cards that you'd made. My dad's an engineer, he'd helped me work out a prototype. I had knee money, so I couldn't afford to spend 30 grand on tooling it up in plastic. So instead, a friend of the family was a joiner and he made them in his garage. So I made these wooden MDF envelopers. I was making a quid profit on each one, and I went down to the Shopping Channel. I sold 30,000 in the first few months, and it was like the product to have. And because I could demonstrate it Yeah, I'd stand up. The whole key with selling is you've got to solve a problem. So I'd stand up on air and I'd be like, so if you're really into making handmade cards, look at these beautiful cards you make. You're not telling me you're going to put them in a plain white envelope that's potentially not even the right size. Look, bish bash bosh, and I'd make an envelope in 30 seconds and say, look how beautiful this coordinated matching envelope is for this card. You wouldn't give somebody a rare beautiful birthday present wrapped in newspaper. Why would you give them a card in a manila or a white envelope? Next thing I know, £14.99 sale, take an envelope. And I'd sell thousands of them. And that's how I started as a salesperson in the craft industry.

That journey of, I suppose, starting your own company, going on the television sales, like, what are the steps that you went through, you know, from small business to, you know, medium-sized business? Like, can you give us a bit of flavor as to, was it certain products that made the difference? Was it always changing, or products that made the difference?

So, um, the envelopper was the real thing that launched me. And I remember, you know, because we were, we were cash generative, I was, I was basically as fast as I could make these enveloppers, we were selling them to the shopping channel. And then because it was my dad's mate, I said, look, mate, I'll get paid on 45 days, I'll write you a cheque, but don't cash it until 46 days because there'll be no money in the bank to pay for it. And that is literally how I got started in those early days. You'll realize I can talk anybody into anything. Just get me in a room with them, I'll talk them into it. Whether it's the buyer giving me a slot on the channel, whether it's the manufacturer letting me have 46 days credit on, on me makes or whatever it is. And, um, so I went on there, but I, I'm so— I love what I do. I love what I do, and that passion's infectious. So once I was on the TV shopping channel and I was selling my envelopes and it was going great, it was like, well, what else can I make? Where's the other opportunities in the market? Where's the gaps? And how do I go and solve that? And I remember, um, papers were a massive thing at the time. People used to pay a pound a sheet for beautiful printed papers to use in their cards. And I thought, hang on, there's a kid in the year below me at uni, he's a brilliant graphic designer. I'll get him to design these papers, I'll put it on a CD-ROM, I'll sell them CD-ROMs. Was telling all these little old ladies watching the shopping channels, buy this CD-ROM, go on your husband's computer and print these, you know. So people would have like a computer at home for work at the time, print them out. You can print your own papers, it costs pennies a sheet instead of paying a pound a sheet. And I can remember we were selling hundreds of thousands of CD-ROMs a year on the, on this shopping channel.

I love it.

Because I'd kind of created that demand and, and but solved a problem in a new way for people. And of course made a ton of money selling CD-ROMs. I mean, you know, they used to cost me pennies to duplicate and sell them for a lot of money.

It's kind of a dream business.

It was, it was a dream business.

But also it's one of those businesses where the person buying it is also kind of having fun in the making of it.

Loving it. Exactly. And they are quite happy because actually it's a win-win. I'm making a load of money selling that CD-ROM, but they are saving a fortune. They can get 300 papers on a CD. They only have to print everyone once and they're already quids in compared to what they'd pay for buying a paper. I've always found in business, if you can build win-wins The customer wins, you win, the supplier wins, everybody's happy.

That's such a good point because I think so many entrepreneurs are focused on just winning themselves.

Yeah, you'll never win if you do that.

Yeah, there's no long-term—

it's a short-term win. Yeah, it's a short-term win. You've been building win for your customers, for your suppliers, for your partners. Everybody wins. Everyone wants to keep doing business with you. I always say this about, um, it amazes me when people want to like— they get a supplier and then if you become their biggest customer, you can screw that supplier down, you can screw them on price. And I think that's great, but it's so short-term because if they're not making money, they're not going to work with you long term. You've got to build a business relationship where they are desperate to do more business with you because it's fantastic business for them.

Absolutely.

Then they'll put themselves out and, and their business grows with your business. And that's what's always worked for me.

At that age, did you think that the business would go on to become what it did?

I had no idea there wasn't a grand plan. There was— do you know what? There's never been a grand plan. I've just— I've loved what I'm doing. I'll be really honest though, um, if I'd been left to my own devices, I would have overtraded and imploded because I don't know when to stop. And I'm just— I'm like a magpie. I just like shiny stuff. So if it's shiny and it's exciting, I'll just run hard at it until I make it successful. It's never if, it's always when. Because I know that I will make it a success. It's just how much work it's going to expend to get it to be a success. And so I would run after all these opportunities, and I was never strategic in my thinking. It was what was the most exciting looking opportunity. No, but I haven't sat there and commercially worked out which one's going to give the greatest return for the least effort. It's always what excited me the most. And my husband— my husband's an accountant, the delight of being married to a wonderful accountant. And so, um, I remember we were about 2 years the business. We've been together since I was 15, so I know him and I trust him implicitly. And he had a wonderful job. We're like chalk and cheese, me and Simon. I always say it's not that we're on different pages in the book, we're in different goddamn libraries, me and Simon. Like, we see the world through a different lens, and that's why it works. And so I would always want to run off after all these opportunities, but he was the one who would come along behind me with a sweeping brush and pick up the pieces. And he had a fantastic career in corporate and I was building the business. And it worked because he would pay our mortgage and he would do all the sensible stuff, and I could just work, work, work, and it didn't matter if I didn't contribute to our family income. And, um, I remember he came home one day and said, um, I've handed in my notice, handed in my notice at work. And I was like, what? And he said, um, yep, I've worked out there's enough money in the business we can take out— I think we owed about £130 grand on our mortgage we'll take the £130,000 out, we'll pay off our mortgage. Wow. If we take £10 grand a year each salary, we can live on that. We'll cover our expenses with £20 grand between the two of us if we've got no mortgage, and we can both run hard at the business. It was amazing, but I would never in a million years have asked him to do that because the business was my dream. The way I'm wired, that's, that's exciting in my life. It's not what excites him, but he realized I would overtrade and implode. And we had— we were sitting on a gold mine. The business was such an immense opportunity. But me running around fighting fires, chasing, you know, chasing rainbows, it needed some structure and I'm not structured. And so he came in and he gave it the structure. And I remember in the first month going through our P&L, he saved us more money in that first month than what his annual salary was. So from a family point of view, it made total sense. But also I looked at him and he, you know, used to go to work in a suit and tie every day with a briefcase. And now all of a sudden he's coming into work in, you know, tracksuit bottoms and a hoodie because we're unloading a container. And, and that was just our life. And, and he never ever complained and he never said anything. But I could tell what made him happy was bigger business. He'd been running multi-million, multi-billion pound budgets in his old company, and now here he was running a £2.5 million turnover business. But all it did is it drove me to want to build the business to be bigger because I wanted it to be big enough that he would enjoy it. I wanted it to be, to be justified of his level of expertise as a manager. I was the leader, he was the manager. And, um, that was really what drove me to grow that business and work so hard in the early days, is I felt like I owed it to him. I'd taken— I hadn't taken his career off him because he'd chosen to give it up up, but I wanted him to be really happy and fulfilled in his career. Therefore, I needed this business to be bigger because that was what was going to be fulfilling for him.

I felt emotional. You tell me that, sounds like an absolute legend.

Do you know, I remember it was our 10th birthday at work and I stood up on the stage and I remember trying to tell that story. I think everybody sees me as the front woman and they think, oh my God, she's amazing. It's not me. I'm the leader, I'm the exciting person. He was— it's like that Bette Midler song, Wind Beneath My Wings, or whatever. He was the one in the background doing everything. But that's when you know it's love as well. He's happy to be in the background. Nobody ever knows it was Simon. No, he was just happy to be in the background and happy for me to take all the credit even though he's doing all the work there. And I think it's only a partner like that you can ever find. It's, you know, you said you worked with your brother. I think it's when it's family, it's so much more than just business.

Yeah, I mean, my, my brother and I obviously built a very big business together, and obviously we're the co-founders, but the third co-founder was my wife. But, you know, she's such a, such a without public profile person.

Yeah.

And she doesn't want the public profile. She's not interested at all. But she's exactly like your husband.

Yeah.

You know, just unbelievable at— you know, she left Starling Bank to come work for our health tech startup that made no money, and we were like, why would you come and work for us?

Because she believed.

And she believed. Yeah. And she still, you know, she still leads that business with Will today. So yeah, when you were saying that, I was like, wow, I mean quite the parallel.

It's a unique combination, isn't it?

Yeah.

I think when you've got— it's, it's that— I think a really big, um, value within business is trust. And I think when you, you're working with somebody at that high level and you've got the ultimate level of trust because they're your partner or your brother or whatever it is, you can't replicate that in any other way, shape, or form. And I mean, we've probably gone too far the other way. Simon's best friend then became our CFO before. His other best friend moved out to the US to manage our US business for us, and 3 of our 4 parents worked in the business at one point because trust was such a big thing for me. And, you know, you can trust people who care that much about the business to always do the right thing.

You know, people always said it about me and Louise working together and working with Will. They were like, oh God, what's it like working with your wife? And I was like, it's epic. What do you mean? Like, it's the best thing in the world.

Yeah.

Like, one, I love hanging out with my wife, but like, two, I ultimately trust my wife and my brother. Yeah, it's not like a new business partnership where I'm trying to work out who they are, what the motivation is, the agenda. Yeah, been with them forever.

Yeah, it is, it's quite the unique combination, but you don't see it that often in business.

So what's the, what's the advice to people about working with friends and family?

I think you will know if it's right for you. I tell you what was really eye-opening for me, and I hadn't realized this. So, um, within Dragon's Den, what I do every year is after we've done a new season of filming, I then hold a conference and I have all of my Dragon's Den businesses that I've already invested in come along, and all of the new ones that are going through due diligence and deciding do they really want to go through this and enter in this partnership with me, and we're testing everything out. We— I get them all together for a couple of days, and I, and I did this and I hosted a big dinner the night in between the two-day event. And most of the entrepreneurs had brought their partners along as well. And I realized more than half of the businesses around the table, their partners were working in the business alongside them, and they were all me and Simons. And sometimes it was an incredible female entrepreneur and the partner was like the Simon, and sometimes it was an incredible male entrepreneur. But I realized the quiet— that it was their wife or whatever that was the Simon. Just like you say with your wife. And I realize it's that I've obviously gravitated towards people like me without even realizing. I hadn't known that the point at which they've walked through the lift doors in the Den, that, that their partner was in the background supporting them somehow. Um, but it's wonderful to see when it does work.

It's quite interesting that I would say when I used to watch you on the show, I would know whether you were going to invest in someone the second they started speaking.

I am so pleased you said, because honestly I know by the time they finish their pitch. Yeah, I know. But the producers could never work it out. I remember my executive assistant Rachel coming down once, I think it was the second or the third series, and sitting in the gallery. And, and the producer, they're watching us all, you know, on the close-up cameras. And the producer going to her, I think Sarah's going to invest in this one. And Rachel's saying, absolutely not, not a chance, she's got no interest in this. And they, they couldn't read it on me, but because she knew me so well, she could see straight away because it's the people. All I'm ever interested in investing in is the people, and I can tell within a few minutes, are you the sort of person that I would love to spend my time with? It's not my money that's in short supply, it's my time. So I've got to be really selective in who I let into my inner circle.

And so obviously you have built a family alongside building a business. How have you managed being being an unbelievably successful entrepreneur, an investor, a TV personality, and being a mother. I saw you talk before about, you know, parent guilt. How do you manage those two, you know, situations, as it were?

And there is no place in my life for mum guilt, whether it's mum guilt for the rest of the women out there watching, or parent guilt, although you don't hear people talk about dad guilt very often. Um, it seems to get leveled a lot more at women. It's women who let it seep into their minds. You don't hear as many men, although I do meet some who let, who let it slip in. And I just look and I think, you know what, I am not as present in my kids' life as some other women are in their kids' lives. Would I want to be more present? Absolutely. I'd love to have more time to spend with my kids. Who makes the decision on where I spend my time? I do. It's only me in control of that. I'm the one who is trying to run a business and keep doing more seasons of Dragon's Den and adding more into my investment portfolio and loves having this TV career side hustle hobby that I've got going on. There's only me that stacks all of that stuff into my diary. So I'm choosing where I spend my time and you've got to choose that based on what's going to make you happy. And I know that I'm a really happy mom if I'm really fulfilled in my career as well and in my life. So I've made that choice. I need to own that choice. And live with it. And the way I've found getting around doing that is you've got to celebrate the wins and not chastise yourself over the bad stuff. So for example, um, sports day last year, sports day, and my 8-year-old especially, Charlie, mummy, are you going to be there? He's trained so hard, he wants to win the medals on sports day. And I couldn't. It was a day we were filming Dragon's Den. We only filmed 17 days. And can you see me ringing Peter Jones and Stephen Bartlett? I'm sorry, mate, reschedule them meetings, get your flights changed, we can't film on Tuesday. Like, I just— I'm not in position to control that. I couldn't make Sports Day and I had to let the kids down and say I'm just not going to be there. And I did make the school nativities this year, both of them. I was there for both of my kids' school nativities. And when I look back and reflect on the year, I tell myself I'm a bloody brilliant mother, I made both my kids' school nativities. Not I'm a really terrible mother, I miss Sports Day. I think it's all about the narrative we kind of tell ourselves in our head as well. And I, and I focus on those positives. I'm not as present in the kids' lives as I want to be, right? But I make the time that I have count, and I'm really selective. You know, yesterday I went, what day, Tuesday? On Sunday I managed to make both the kids' football matches because one of them was a 10:30 kickoff, one was a 12 o'clock kickoff, and I was on the sidelines cheering at both of those. I had to go into work on the afternoon I had to do it. But you know what? I was there for the important stuff and I made the time I had count. It's not about the hours, it's about making the hours count.

My dad was similar, actually, entrepreneur as well. I find that the amount of people who come on my show who are entrepreneurs, whose parents were quite entrepreneurial, is so high. Really? Yeah. I mean, and here's the thing.

Do you think it's nature or nurture?

Well, I don't know. I mean, my, my dad was at all our sports games, not all of them, but a lot of them. And also at quite weird hours. You know, like, he— if we had a, a sports game in the afternoon, he would probably be the only parent that could come.

Yeah.

But then often he couldn't come to the one that every, every other parent could come to because he was an entrepreneur. Yeah. And so his schedule and life was different. I think that my younger brother and my older brother are entrepreneurs, and my mum, for example, is a QVC model, funnily enough. I feel like growing up, my dad made us just believe it was possible that you could work for yourself. And I think a lot of it is starting the first business. Yeah, doing the first thing.

It's mindset and role modeling. I think it's, you know, a lot of people say to me, and I hated it when I first had the kids, I remember I would meet a lot of new mums and they would be dreading that 9-month marker when they had to go back to work.

Yeah.

And they'd say, you're so lucky, you're so lucky, Sarah, that you, you're an entrepreneur and you're in control of your own life. I'd love to start my own business, and then I could do the school pickups when I wanted, and I could take whatever time I want. And I just thought, you've got no blooming idea. And, and I always think those people aren't cut out for being entrepreneurs. My, my big thing is I always say being an entrepreneur, it's not a career choice, it's a lifestyle choice. And because I'd grown up around my parents living that lifestyle, I knew what that lifestyle looked like. You know what it is? Is, as an entrepreneur, you don't have the choice of— it's not only, can I switch off at 5 o'clock on a night? Can you ever switch off? Like, that is a, that is a choice you make. And yes, there's a load of rewarding stuff comes with it, but there's a load of sacrifices that people make. It's, you know, you, you lead a completely different lifestyle, and not everybody— in fact, not many people are cut out for leading that lifestyle. And I think if you are prepared to do that and you are prepared to put in what it needs to succeed, then the world's your oyster. but you need that nurturing within you. You know, I grew up seeing it in both my parents, and I knew that's the lifestyle I want— I was happy to lead, and I wanted the rewards that came with it.

Also, your kids will be incredibly proud of the inspiration you were to so many other people, right? I mean, like, obviously Dragon's Den and things like it will pull you away from, uh, you know, the ordinary life, but how many millions of people, especially women, have you inspired to be entrepreneurs? Probably uncountable now.

Do you know, that is, that is the one big thing. If there's, if there's any sort of legacy I want to leave behind in this world, it's instilling other women to believe that they can do that. And not only women, other people. I can remember when I was, um, so I'm a little bit older than you, but when I first started my business and I was in my early 20s and Dragon's Den was first on, and I read all of those dragons' autobiographies, I was like, I was reading every business book I wanted to soak everything up, right? And of all of them, I can't remember what was in any of them now, you know. Craigie, that was 15 years ago. And but I can remember reading Duncan Bannatyne's.

Yeah.

And I, I only remember a little, little bits of the stories from within it because I can't remember what he did. What I can remember is how he made me feel. I read that book and I thought, there's nothing special about him, like, is there not? You know, he's not brains of Britain, he hasn't grown up with a silver spoon in his mouth, he's had no opportunities in life that I couldn't have. He's just so driven and determined that he's turned his nothing opportunities into something. And if he can do it, there's absolutely no reason why I can't do it. And I can remember feeling like that and feeling so inspired after reading his book. It didn't tell me the blueprint of how he did it. It made me feel like anybody could do it. And I think that's, you know, my big motivation in life is I wanted to write a book. And that's how I wrote my autobiography 3 years ago, because I wanted other people to read that book look and just go, well, she's not special, she's just totally ordinary. There's nothing she's had in her life that I haven't got in my life. If she's done it through grit and determination and hard work, so can I. And I think it's just inspiring them other people to realize that you don't have to be special, you just have to have the determination, the drive and passion to go and do it.

You are exactly like you're on the show. It's quite nice.

Good.

Like, you are just you.

That's the biggest compliment. Whenever people meet me The biggest thing people say is, you're just like I thought you were going to be. And I think whether you chat to me in a podcast or you watch me on Dragon's Den or you bump into us in Tesco, you'll get exactly the same version of me because it's just too exhausting being anything else.

In those early days, I think that one of the reasons a lot of people don't become entrepreneurs is they think it's very risky. And I think it is a risky thing to be an entrepreneur, but I find like it's often exaggerated how big that risk is if you manage it. And so I'm quite interested as to, did you have big risk moments in your life in the early days when you're starting the business? Were there other moments you look back on and say, wow, that was a, you know, that was a big risk but it paid off?

I have probably a very unhealthy relationship with risk, as I think a lot of entrepreneurs do, for sure. And it's a very different relationship with risk than the one that my husband has, being an accountant. I can tell you. And for me, I never saw it as risk because I just— I look at something and I think, well, I will just work hard to make that work. So to me, the risk is just how much work I've got to put in to make it successful. I never, ever, ever let myself think, well, what if it's not? And I think it's those negative thoughts that can drag anyone down. And yes, I've had some risky moments, and I think I remember the, the worst one, the absolute worst one, is a couple of years into the business, somebody had copied one of my products, um, Helix. You know, the people who make the protractors in the stationery? Yeah, yeah, you'll probably have had one of their protractors in your pencil case when you're at school, right? They decided to get into the craft market, and they must have looked at my product and thought, there's an awesome product. Oh, she's just a little two-bit businesswoman, I will just knock that off, right? And I remember seeing it, and it was so blatantly a rip-off of my idea. And I just thought, well, this is what I've spent tens of thousands of pounds on me patent for. I'll just go into battle with them. And I remember just— and now I understand a lot more about patent law. As soon as you step forward and start that ball rolling, there's no stopping it until you get to a resolution. You don't just get a couple of months in and think, oh yeah, it's too expensive to sue this company, I'm not going to bother anymore. Once you start, you're into it. And I remember making that decision because it just felt like I'm right, they're wrong, and surely that's obvious. And patent law is not like that. Bad. Not about who's right and who's wrong, it's about how well is that patent written and how well have the other company worked around the specifics in your claims in your patent. Now I understand this, and I remember at the worst of it I was into it for about quarter of a million quid. And I remember standing up in court, I was in London in the, in the small courts or whatever, and we had Helix's big claim on why this shouldn't be seen through in court is that I was such a small company, when they won, I would go bankrupt before I'd be able to pay their fees back, right? That was the argument why this whole thing should be thrown out, which a lot of companies use, right? And I stood up and I offered to transfer hundreds of thousands of pounds, basically all the money in the business, into the court's holding account for them to hold till the end of the trial to secure it, to get, get over that argument, because I was so confident. Now, the risk involved— if I look back now, I was thinking What was I doing? I would have literally toppled the business. I would have toppled the business. I wasn't thinking about that. All I was thinking about is, this is right, this is a brilliant opportunity, this brilliant idea. I'm going to run headlong at this. And thank God. The irony is Helix couldn't afford to do the same. They didn't have the same cash available to put that money in the car, so they were forced into mediation. And in mediation, I got the outcome that I was wanting. They withdrew that product. Up for sale from the market. And karma is a wonderful thing. Business was really having big financial difficulties a few months later, and I just thought, yep, well, you shouldn't go around ripping off young lasses. That'll teach you. But I remember at the time, I wasn't even thinking about risk. I was just running at it headlong. And, and that's, that's unhealthy in some ways, you know. And I think I had Simon to balance me out on that. So now I do view risks differently, and there's always ways to mitigate around risk. But as an entrepreneur, when I first started up, I think having that attitude to risk was, was good. And I guess for me it's a lot easier. I started the business when I had no dependents. Simon was earning enough money that he could make our mortgage payments, and I was happily able to take £10,000 a year. It was about £800 a month salary I took, and that was— I couldn't even spend the £800. That was, you know, we lived on that comfortably. Um, whereas it's different if I look now. You've got so many more bills you have to pay, everything. It would be— I would have different appetite to risk starting now because there's a lot more riding on it.

That's why I often say like starting a business young, you know, I started my first business I think at 15. And so people are like, wow, so brave of you. It wasn't brave.

It wasn't brave at 15.

Didn't know what the risk was, didn't know what the thing was, didn't know what the business was.

It was smart at 15.

Yeah. And especially when you're at university, for people who go to university, I had a student loan that effectively paid for the starting of my business, you know. And so again, the risk was very limited, whereas if you're older and you have kids and you have a life and all the rest of it, that's where the risks start becoming, you know, more considered thing. One of my favorite things I've seen you talk about is how you have actually experienced imposter syndrome, which for so many people watching will be the nicest thing in the world to hear.

Oh my gosh, that first year on The Den when I had that little spotty dress on. I always remember me seeing that. I remember that, the purple spotty dress, because I didn't— I was adamant I was not sitting in that chair and wearing a structured business suit. And they even said to me, on your first year, the BBC would pay for my outfit. They told me to go to Selfridges, get a stylist, they'd pay for my outfit and everything. And I was like, I'm not wearing one of them stuffy £2,000 business suits or whatever. I wanted to be, I guess, the dragon of the people. I just didn't realise that's what it was. And I wore that, I remember it was like a high straight dress, £140 I paid for that. And I said, I'll just pay for it myself, thank you BBC. And it, 'cause it was just, it just felt so me. But I sat in that chair and I sat there thinking, oh my God, that is actually Deborah Meaden, the Deborah Meaden sitting in that chair next to me. And I've got to sit here and look at them entrepreneurs as though I'm on a level with Debra Meaden because I'm sitting in the chair next to her. And I didn't feel like I was on a level to her. I sat there thinking, how the hell did I get here? Like, how— what have I done to be able to deserve this? And suffered massively from imposter syndrome. And I don't know, it's not that anybody said it to me, but the penny dropped for me years later. And, and I always try and speak to people about this and say, look, It's not me that made the decision on whether or not I was good enough to be a dragon, right? That wasn't my call. Yes, I applied. Well, somebody, a friend of mine, applied on my behalf, so I was in the application process. But then it was the executive— the series producer and the executive producer, they shortlist. The commissioner watched all of my screen tests, decided if I was good enough. She then puts me forward to her boss, who's the head of the talent in the BBC. Then it goes to the head of the BBC to sign off who gets to be a new dragon. Those are the people who, every time there's a new dragon, decide who gets to be the new dragon. And they've been doing this for years, and they know what they're looking for. They know what the audiences want. They know what they want. They are the people who decided I was good enough to be a dragon. They've seen enough in me to decide that I'm good enough to sit there in that chair. I don't have the experience they have, so who am I to sit in that chair and decide that I'm not good enough? Like, my job is to sit there and live up to their expectations.

Such a good way of looking at that.

Yeah. And I say to people, you know, if you are— you've been put forward for a promotion at work, and I have it. There's a girl works for me, she was my PA for a lot of years, and I recently put her forward to be now senior leadership team. And I had to ring in because she's like, I don't think I'm that level yet. And I said, well, I think you are. 9 years I've been training you for this role. And I think you are absolutely ready. And she didn't, she had huge imposter syndrome. And I said, look, you've got to trust me. I'm the leader in this business. It's on my head whether or not you fail or succeed. It's not on your head, it's on my head. I know you're the sort of person that's gonna work your arse off to make a success of this. That's all I ask. And I've trained you to be able to do that job. So trust me, stop having imposter syndrome. I believe you're good enough to be there. Go and do it. And I think that's what you need to remember is, well, whatever room you've managed to get yourself into, whatever job role, whatever opportunity, right? You weren't in control of putting you there. You fought hard for it. And somebody who is— you were there on somebody else's head. Just live up to their expectation. And I sit in that chair now in the BBC and I don't think I'm not good enough to be here. I sit there and I look around the room and I think, bloody BBC, you're lucky to have me. And I think that's That's the change in mindset. But it's got— you've got to deal with that yourself. You've really got to. I met a guy last week, um, really successful businessman, and he suffers from imposter syndrome. He's in his 60s, right? And it was only a couple of years ago, and he said to me, um, he was talking to somebody and he said, um, I'm just worried I'm going to get found out, you know, one day. So they're going to find out I'm not all I'm cracked up to be. And she leaned over and she said 'You're 60. Do you not think they would have found out by now?' And he said, for him, it took hearing those words to realize, 'Oh yeah, if there was something to find out, they would have found out by now.' So whatever it is, I just think I feel really lucky that I overcame my imposter syndrome in my 30s. There's women— that guy was 60 before he overcame the imposter syndrome. So if there's one thing I want people to take away, it's get— there's only you can get over it. Nobody else can deal with your imposter syndrome. There's only you. But the sooner you do, the better you'll be able to shine brighter in whatever it is you're doing.

I mean, for what it's worth, I thought when you came on the show, you came out swinging.

That's good, because I wasn't feeling it that first year.

Honestly, I thought it was awesome. Like, it was a real— because there's, you know, the show had become a little bit stale, and so I think you were, you know, a much-needed ingredient for that show. And I think that as you did the show you almost became more full of personality as the show went on. And I watched you go on Strictly, for example, and I thought that again was like a— it was like another level of personality from you. So like, how did Strictly come about and what was that experience like?

Oh, it was my life ambition.

Was it actually?

Oh my God, yes. I remember—

oh wow—

when I got drag— when I got Dragon's Den, that somebody at the BBC said to me, um, what do you want to do in your life? Like, what's your ambitions? I said, I want to go on Strictly. And they said, well, you need to go and get yourself an agent and tell your agent that's what you want to do. Wow. So I remember telling her, and it was 2 years later, I was actually filming for The Den, and I got a text from her, give me a ring when you're on a break. And I came out and I rang her, and she said, I've had that call. That's all she said. And I was like, not that call. She was like, yes, that call. And it was— I just remember I I was so enamored. So it'd be my life's ambition to go on The Shore. And I remember that first week I was doing the Cha Cha Cha, right? And, um, I thought it was brilliant, you know. And I'd studied so hard. We put all the hours in. I'd worked. And in your Cha Cha Cha, it's all about how you throw your hip out when you do it, your New Yorker, and your legs have to be perfectly straight. And so I'd focused, focused, focused on the technique, right? And there was this bit in the song where you had to like show off and you had to wave your arms above your head and then do this whole thing down your body. And I felt so uncomfortable doing it. It didn't matter what Ali Ash did for the whole week, I couldn't settle into that. It felt so not me, right? And I guess in business you just put this wall up, you know, you only ever see the armor. You don't, you don't ever see like vulnerable me behind the armor. And, um, that whole show-offy thing was so vulnerable, and it was like, look at me, look at me, and I'm not not that look at me person. So I remember doing the whole dance and dreading that little showy-off bit, but the whole dance was a little bit showy-offy, and I focused on the technique, not the showing off. And I remember watching the rehearsal at the dress run, and there's about 5 of us doing cha-cha-chas that week, right? And I watched them all thinking I was a bit of an expert, thinking her legs aren't straight enough, she hasn't thrown a hip out in them New Yorkers, I'm loads better than he is. Like, I was focused on the technique week, right? And so I was fourth to dance, and they slated me and gave me 17. I thought, yeah, it's week one, you get low scores or whatever. And so I was bottom of the leaderboard of like 4 of us, and I thought, yeah, but I've watched everybody dance, and I know I'm at least better than the other 5 cha-cha-cha— the other 4 cha-cha-chas. So, you know, probably about halfway, about half of them are better than me overall, but half of them, I can give them a good run for their money. And you know what, everybody danced and got their scores and the leaderboard stretched, stretched, stretched, and I stayed at the bottom. And I couldn't understand it. And I was like, but, but, but my dancing was better. And, and I just, and I was utterly, utterly devastated. And, and I remember we went out, got drunk that night. Ali Ash took us out to the bar afterwards, and he said it was about 3 o'clock in the morning, and he, his little face, and he looked at it and said, partner, it broke my heart to see how upset you were tonight. And, and I thought, I thought he couldn't see it. I thought I'd put me shield. Oh, it's water off a duck's back, I don't care, I don't care. I did care. I was hurting a lot. And then, and I watched the show back the next morning, and the penny dropped, because I watched the show back and I realized those are the people. It wasn't about the dancing, it was about putting themselves out there, it was about putting themselves out their comfort zone, it was, you know, heart on their sleeve, all lights were off, I'm gonna go out there and give it my all. And I looked like I hadn't given it my all. I looked— and I was giving it my all, but I wasn't letting myself go. I wasn't prepared to let myself be vulnerable. And I remember the headlines on the Monday morning, you know, I was bookie's favorite to be out. I was bookie's favorite to be the first one out. And I was like, my whole life I've dreamed of being on this show, and if I can't shed this vulnerable feeling, if I just can't go and be in the moment then I'm going to be out next week and I'm going to have missed this huge once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. And thank God week 2 was actually about ballroom dancing where you don't show off. So Latin's all about showing off, look at me. Ballroom dancing is about being elegant and graceful and perfect, and that played right to my strengths. So you bugger, week 2 I made Strictly history as the only person to go from the very bottom of the leaderboard to the very top of the leaderboard. Leaderboard and double my scores, or like in one week.

Wow.

But it was, it was just such a valuable lesson, and I learned that it's all right to be vulnerable sometimes. You can't keep that wall up all the time. People respect you more when they can see the real you and the vulnerability. So I still really struggled with the, struggled with the showing off. What you'll find if you look at the Strictly leaderboard at the year I was in, I was like a yo-yo. Latin dancers right at the bottom, ballroom dancers top of the leaderboard, you know. And it's But it was such a— it was a really life-defining time for me.

There aren't many business people who do a show like that.

The other dragons just laughed at me, they couldn't understand. They also couldn't understand why I could justify taking 3 months out of my business to go and do that.

Yeah.

And, and I remember, I mean, it takes an army. It's— my staff all had to rally round and work harder because I was missing for those few months. And I wasn't completely missing out the business, I just wasn't in the business business 10 hours a day like I would normally be. And my parents and my in-laws all had to step up to help more with the childcare. My poor husband was like a single dad and a single CEO running the business, you know. You just had to pick up all the pieces.

What a legend.

So I could go off and live my best life for a few months. But everybody was like, do you know what, you never do anything for yourself. You're always putting the kids first, the business first, your investments first, everything. Everybody else goes first. That was me time in my life where it was just about what I wanted there was no business reason, there was no personal reason. I didn't want to become a celebrity, so I wasn't— a lot of people who go on Strictly, it's to raise their profile. I didn't want to go on to raise my profile. It didn't do anything for my business, you know. So it wasn't a business reason or a commercial reason, it was just because I wanted to do it for me. And I think all them people that watched me, the biggest thing I always say, people say, was it good? And I was like, if it looks like I was having a good time, it was 10 times better than it even looked. It was honestly, I had the time of my life. I loved it.

I love that as well. You did look incredibly happy.

I was very happy at the time.

It's funny you say that the impact on your business wasn't, you know, overtly obvious. I would have thought that raising your profile would have been a great thing for your business.

So it's interesting because, yes, I, I've strictly was the start of me having a really big public profile. You know, I was always the dragon on Dragon's Den, but a lot of the dragons don't stay under the radar, but they're not as high profile. They don't pursue celebrity lifestyles because they're not trying to be celebrities. They're just business people who happen to do a business negotiation that's televised. Whereas Strictly, that's it, all the paps are chasing you all the time. It's just another level. It raised my profile, but then I've never, I, I've never like worked on, well, how do I take that profile and commercialize it? Yeah, because it's not about commercializing that. So a lot of the people that craft— we are Crafters Companion, we are a business that supply products for an advanced card maker. Not advanced, an enthusiast card maker. And you seeing me on Strictly is not going to make you more of an enthusiast card maker and want to buy more crafting products. We're not a generalist supplier like a Hobbycraft, we are a specialist supplier. And I think, you know, as my profile continues to grow I move more into generalist and, and I see that I do a bit of a service for my industry now. I mean, if anybody that follows me on any of the shopping and on the shop, you know, the social media channels, you'll see I do loads and loads of crafting. And actually a lot of the stuff I'm doing, I'm using stuff that's around the house. It's not stuff— you don't have to buy things that I sell to do that. It's just generic stuff you'd have around the house because I'm trying to get people interested in crafting because the more people that get into crafting crafting, that'll be fantastic for my industry. And a rising tide lifts all boats. And I feel this real responsibility to be at the top of my industry and to, and to get more people to get into crafting. And that's just, I guess that's the kind of philanthropic space that I sit in in my industry. It's not necessarily for my business, it's just a great thing for our industry.

And I think that that show would have definitely humanized you and made people love you more as a person. Because I think, like you say, like dragons can be a bit sort of, you know, hard. Yeah, harsh, hard and tough and so forth, you know. So when you went on Dragons, then originally I read you were 35 and you went on, is that right? And you were youngest dragon ever.

35, 34. Yes, I think I was just— I think I might have been 34. Anyway, mid-30s, let's just say.

And a friend applied for you. Amazing. What a friend. And did, did you notice notice the impact of Dragon's Den on your business?

No, not at all. No direct impact whatsoever.

It's amazing. It's also amazing about you that that, that wasn't your pursuit, as in I would know so many people now who would always be like, I'd love to be on the Den because of the impact on my business, whereas it seemed like you almost—

so the thing for me is, and I think you'll probably get this watching the show, I love business. I'm just so interested in business, yet I have no aspirations to be a serial entrepreneur. I love my industry, I love crafting, and I— and, and all of the people that work in my business are either friends who've come to work for me or people that have worked for me that have become friends. So the business is, is like an extension of my social circle, and the people that I care about are the people employed in that business. So I have no motivation to to sell that business to then start again. Because what would I achieve in doing that? I'd get a load of money, but the money wouldn't make me happy because all the people that I'm happy spending time with are in the business. And so, so because I don't want to be a serial entrepreneur, how the hell do you scratch the itch that entrepreneurs have?

Yeah.

And so for me, investing in other businesses has been the way to scratch that itch. And I always say, being an investor in a business— and you'll get it's like being an auntie or an uncle, right? So I remember when my sister had a baby, it's great because I can go around to her house and I can cuddle the baby, I can coo over the baby, I can go, oh, that poo is a funny colour, I think you want to be checking what you're eating. You know, that I can do all— I can pass on my knowledge and experience and have and share the highs, right? And then at bedtime I'm like, yep, your problem, you have the sleepless night, you deal with all the problems. Yeah, I've had the nice cuddles. And I think that's what being, being an investor is like, you know. You can pass on all of your knowledge and everything like that, but it's not your problem, it's not your business. You're just there to help and support. And so that's why I've loved being an investor and, and getting involved with all of these businesses. But I don't have the appetite to go and start again because that would mean either spreading myself too thin and not having Crafter's Companion, or, you know, I stepped back from Crafter's Companion a couple of years ago And the people that took over, you know, the management team that, that our investment partners put in, they just didn't care about the businesses like I do. They didn't care about the customers like I used to. And, and so it just didn't work. And all I found was I had to come back over and take it back over because it, it is my baby. It's, it's my first child, it's my first love, and it needs me like that. And I think that's the, that's the thing that you learn over time time.

Yeah, one of the things that, uh, happened to me, I sold my first business when I was 30, and I had almost spent years growing it to sell because I feel that was the advice I was getting at the age. Went through a very rough private equity sale. Um, in the end, great exit, but the business that I had built disappeared during that process. You know, the, the culture, the, the friends— I was very close with everyone that was sort of beaten out of the business through that sale. And so by the time I left, the company was a great and profitable, successful company, but you weren't in love with it anymore. There was no love left at all. And then I was suddenly like, oh, I should start another business. And I was like, but I loved my last business, so why did I sell my last business? And it really was a bit of a wow. It's strange to be in an environment where business tells you to grow and sell Yeah, because you can grow, you know, build a business that you love and still do that. And so I often, I often look back at the advice I got from— and I know I don't blame the advisors, you know, but 25 through 30, all I was doing was prepping to sell. Yeah, which is crazy.

So a few years ago, I remember, and at the time I owned two-thirds of the business and private equity owned a third, and, um, they, they could see that we were sitting on a gold mine and the potential was huge. And also they can see, you know, I'm off doing my side hustle, Strictly, and, you know, doing stuff with the BBC and whatnot. And they can see that's brilliant from a profile point of view. So they want somebody else running the business so that they could try and capitalize on my pro— you're gonna have a profile, Simon, we'll capitalize on it. Which was never the point for me. I was, I was doing what I loved because I loved it, not to commercialize it. And I remember they hired this guy to come in as CEO of the business, and at the time we were probably about a $40 million business trying to grow to a $100 million business, right? And, um, in most private equity businesses, I guess it's just growth at any cost. Just grow, grow, grow the business, right? And I had to sit down and have a full-on come to Jesus with this guy because he came in and he was not my sort of person.

Yeah.

And he was just hell-bent on growing that business. And I remember one of my staff, senior staff, saying to me at the time, they're like, he— there was no doubt he will get this business to £100 million. He's got the skills, he's got the drive, he's got the ambition. He'll get this business to £100 million, but it won't be this business. It'll not be a business that you recognize. And it was like a light bulb moment for me. And so I sat him down and I said, he's the thing, mate, right? I said, I appreciate that if you grow this business now from where it is now to £100 million, you're probably gonna make me £50 million richer. 'Right, which in your head probably looks like huge success.' I said, 'But if it is not the business then that I recognize as the business today— I love this business. I am in love with this business.' I said, 'And I have a great life. I love the house I live in. I love the car that I drive. I don't, I don't spend the money that I've got. I certainly don't need any more of it. That more money in my life is not going to make me feel more enriched or happier, right?' So if you deliver me in 3 years' time or whatever, a business, or you deliver me something that makes me £50 million richer, but it's no longer the business that I love, you have not enriched my life in any way, shape, or form. I said, you've made me more wealthy, but actually all you've done is taken away something that will make me happier. So I will be in a worse place as a result of it. So I appreciate that you join any other private equity business it's probably just growth and profit at any cost. That's not how I'm wired. That's not where I am. I said, so either you've got to be able to grow this business with this culture in a way that matters into a business, and if it doesn't get to $100 million, it gets to $70 million, I'll still be happy, right? Or this is not the job for you. You know, if you need to go and find another private equity firm that are just focused on, on driving a business at all costs. And, um, it was a really radical conversation for me to have with that guy. And I think in most business owners, you just wouldn't have that conversation. And it sounds like you had that experience. You ended up— of course you would sell the business because it's not your business that you're in love with anymore. It's just a tool for making money. And for me, business isn't just a tool for making money. You've got— I love the business. I love my industry. I love my staff. I'm in love with the business, and nothing makes me happier than seeing them succeed within that role, the money is not going to make me happy. It's something completely different. And I think that's a lot of my motivations. The businesses I invest in, in the Den, I invest in the people that I know are going to be on my wavelength and they are going to take so much from me because they're not just interested in the money. If you're just— if you're just interested in the money, I'm not the person for you.

And so thinking about that, thinking about the Den, you would have seen thousands of pitches now.

Yeah, yeah.

What is it about a certain pitch that wins over the Dragons, and what is it about a certain pitch that wins over you?

Um, for me it's the people. It's— I know that— are you cut out to have what it takes to be an entrepreneur? Are you prepared to make those sacrifices, have the drive, everything like that? Because if I don't feel like you have, I'm going to resent you after so long. I'm gonna feel like you're not worthy of my time giving giving you my advice and whatnot because you, you haven't got what it takes. So I'm looking to see, have they got what it takes to succeed as an entrepreneur? And then it's, am I going to find my time with you enriching? I can tell you now, every conversation I have with one of my entrepreneurs, I learn as much from them. I'll take away as much from the conversation as what they will from me. I'm growing and developing as a, as a mentor and a coach and an investor as as well as they are growing and benefiting from my experiences. And actually, and I've had it where I've invested in businesses just because it looks like a great business, but then, you know, I have the conversation with them and I'm looking at them thinking, you're not really listening to what I'm saying because all I am is the money person.

Yeah.

And if that's how you feel about me, I'm not the right person for you. And I've ended up giving them their shares back because it's just not the right relationship for us going forward. Um, and I think that's what I've learned in my time over the den. It's looking for someone. You know, I had one that was on a couple of weeks ago, Carla from Good Wash Day, and, um, she'd invented a towel that helps you dry your hair a little bit easier, right? But she was so highly driven on values. You know, she'd had a corporate career, she'd given that up, and she'd gone and done an MBA to learn how to build it. She had this idea for a business, so she went to business school to learn how to build a business so that then she could go and do it textbook way, in her 50s. You know, she'd really— and I was so enamored by her dedication. And she stood there in the den. First thing Tuca said was, how much are you paying for this? And she told him, and he went, oh, we'll source them out in the Far East and get them at a fraction of the price. And she had the confidence to say to him, I don't think you're the dragon for me because I don't want to do that. I'm not bothered. Yeah, you know, I make enough profit selling this, I make a good profit, I've got a really successful business. I don't— I want— there's a reason why she's using the supply chains that she's using. There's a, there was a lot more to the values of the company than just what she was doing. And yes, most of my product that I make is made out of the Far East. I'm not, I'm not anti that. It's just that this was such a part of her values system and belief, and she was confident enough to stand up in the den knowing that she might walk away from a deal and in doing that. And I thought, I have such an enormous amount of respect for you. I can work with you, pet. I don't mind giving you all the time in the world, you know. And I— and she was— it's only been a week or so since she's been there, and I watch her Instagram stories every morning and I see she's basically gone out to— she puts on Instagram, everyone, is anybody free today who lives locally, wants to come and help us pack orders? Because she can't go. And I love seeing that business community all coming together and it's It's just— and I look there, I think I'm a part of that. I'm thrilled that I'm a— and I will contribute to her success, and that fills my cup massively.

And so I think you see in the Den a lot of the time that people come in with a preconceived notion of who they're going to work with. And if you watch the show long enough, as I have, you will see that people come in being like, I'm gonna work with you, or I'm gonna work with Peter, or whatever. How should people actually pitch though? Surely they shouldn't come in and reveal that immediately.

Oh no, that's a dangerous one. And it's really interesting because you watch a lot of them and sometimes some of the dragons, not myself, but some of them will be bolshy enough to just go, "You've come in for me, haven't you?" Or which dragon have you come in for?

Oh, the dragons say that?

Oh, some of the dragons will say that, yeah. And I never would. It's just not my style. And but what, what the entrepreneurs sometimes don't realize is the seepage. I can tell from your body language if you've come through them doors and actually you're here because you want Deborah, or you're here because you want— there's a lot of them coming because they, you know, they follow Stephen on social media and they convince, oh, I need that marketing guru, or it's a big sustainability one of the convinced they just need Deborah, they can't help it. All of their bias, when they're presenting, they're presenting towards them people. There's nothing switches me more off more as, as a potential investor than that. And I sit there thinking, well, if you don't think I'm good enough for you, I'm not interested.

Yeah.

And so it could have been a great business, we could have been a great fit, but the way you've kind of behaved and acted, I switched off before we start. And you could have done that completely unintentionally. So I'd say anyone going into pitch going with an open mind. You don't know where the conversation's going to take you, but you've got to go in with a real open mind. And also, I subscribe to this theory, I think it's Albert Meribian, I think it might be, where only 7% of communication is actually the words that you speak. So I think it's 52, 53% is your body language, 30-odd percent is your intonation, and the rest just the actual words. And I always think it— I sit there in the den having a conversation with that person before I've even opened my mouth. I've made sure my body language is positively receiving them, my facial expressions, the way I'm communicating, making eye contact with them. All of that I'm doing so that they formed an opinion of me before I even get a chance to speak to them, in case we end up in one of them 5 Dragon Scraps and I'm fighting me fellow dragons for it. I want I've sown the right seeds. And we've got to be mindful of that. A lot of people aren't. And because I've done years and years of shopping telly, I'm really clued up on this theory because on shopping TV, quite often people have got the shopping TV on in the background. It's not their main thing. And how do I capture your attention and get you to want to buy into whatever it is I'm selling? And it's this whole theory of body language and communication.

Even strategically, though, I find that if someone comes in and says, I want Peter, then immediately all the other dragons are like, nope. And then Peter gets a great deal.

Yep.

Whereas if you—

or worse still, what if Peter's not interested in your business?

Yeah, exactly. You need nothing. Yeah. So I always find the best are the people who manage their body language.

Yeah.

Deliver a great pitch and are open to receive great feedback from everyone. Because even if, like, in a typical situation, if you'll have multiple investors bidding to do a round of investment they all have the opportunity to pitch you. You get the leverage.

Exactly that.

And so you end up in situations in the Den where people come in and they go, I really want to work with Deborah, and everyone else goes, okay, and then Deborah goes, I'm not interested.

Yeah.

Or, can I have it at the best deal? You know, can I get more of the business for the same price?

Yeah. I'll tell you what always fascinates me. I remember one, I think it was maybe 3 years in or whatever, but I've had this several times. I might be the the only dragon that's made an offer, right? I've had it a couple of times whereby, you know, they, they come in, they pitch or whatever, and the other dragons aren't interested. It's just me. And I remember this one lad, Grow So Simple was the business, and he went to the wall and he came back. It was only my offer on the table. And he came back and he said, um, thank you for your offer, Sarah, I'd like to negotiate. And I looked at him and I said, just before you start, mate, just gonna point out right now in situation, I'm holding all the aces, you're holding none.

It's a 1v1.

Just keep that in mind.

Yeah.

When you make your counter offer. And he was just like, you're right, I'll take your offer.

Of course, you don't go to the wall on one offer as well.

Yeah, you wouldn't be surprised who does. You would be surprised. Yeah.

What was your first impressions then on, on The Den? Like, I, I saw that you had a quite funny moment with Deborah pretty early on.

Oh my word.

Do you remember that first day? That you must— that must be quite locked in your mind.

Yeah, so our very first day, not to spoil the magic of TV, right? But if we ever have a big build, they bust them in for the first day. So the very first pitch I ever sat in was a street food company because they'd had to get this street food wagon into the studio, right, which had taken hours to do and get set up in the studio. And so we came into to sit down in the den and you could smell this amazing food. And so we're all sat there and the guy walks through the lift, does his pitch, and then gets into his wagon and says, right, you know, I've got some food for you all. And, um, and I'm nervous because I'm thinking, oh my God, these are my colleagues. This is the first ever pitch I've done, right? So I'm just thinking, and I'm very conscious of body language, and, and I've got to create a good impression with the other dragons as well as with the entrepreneur and everything like that. The only one I knew was Tuca, because he'd done my screen test, right? So as soon as he said it, Tuca clapped his hands together. Oh, amazing! So he jumps up and went running, right? Now, in an everyday situation, this is the sort of stuff I do. So I went, whoa, whoa, whoa, ladies first, you know, because I felt comfortable enough to say that to him. Had Peter done that, I would have been like, enjoy your meal, Peter. But I felt comfortable enough with Tuca, and I wanted to kind of be a bit more relaxed. So, whoa, whoa, whoa, ladies Ladies first. And Deborah, she just barked at me and she went, we're not ladies or gentlemen here, we're all just dragons. And I remember thinking, oh hell, like, and I was terrified of it in that moment. I was terrified. Now I reflect on it now and I think, do you know what, that poor woman, she'd worked for 16 years prior to that to make sure everybody was equal. She'd got sick of being just the, the, you know, the, the poor woman in there and against the men. So she'd fought and fought and fought for that, we're all equal. And then he's some young whippersnapper comes in on the first day, ladies first. So no wonder she barked at me, you know. And if I was in her shoes now, I'd have done exactly the same because she wanted to stamp that seal of approval right from day one. That's not how we behave, and I'm not tolerating that behavior in here. But when you're just a young lass and it's your first day and you're trying to create a good impression, you don't know what to make of that, you know. It's just terrifying. And I always remember in my first season, and I made all the dragons a handmade card— obviously crafting queen here— made them all a handmade card. And I spent hours writing a really heartfelt message in it because I thought this is the sort of thing they might keep, right? Writing this lovely heartfelt message. And I'm always the first one in the studio because my hair takes longer to do than everybody else's. So, um, I, I written this handmade card the night before, and I went in and I left everybody in the green rooms. And I, I just remember on that last morning of filming, Deborah came in. She was a few minutes late, and I was in getting my hair and makeup done. And she just came over and she just put a hand on my, my arm, and she just looked me in the eye. She says, thank you, you'll never know how much that means. And I could see she'd been crying. And that's all she said. And she went over and sat silently in the chair, and we sat and got our makeup done in silence. And I remember what I'd wrote in the card. I just remember saying, as someone who's looked up to you my whole career, it has been such a privilege to sit beside you and learn firsthand from you. You know, she'd kind of mentored me through that first season. She'd, she'd put me right when I was wrong, as you saw. But, and I'm basically put all of my feeling from that first season into that card just to say thank you. You've had a huge impact on my life. And I just think people often don't take the time to acknowledge things like that and to really say thank you and, and, and to show Deborah's been a huge part of my life the last 6— I only spend them 17 days a year with her, but I learned so much from her in that time, from being around her, from the, the knowledge and insight that she'll share with me. And I'm also sure Deborah gets a lot from me, you know, it's got to be a two-way street. And but it's so nice to recognize when people have had that impact in your life, I think. And it's— I always remember that first season, and she was just so touched by that.

I had Deborah on the show, and, uh, yeah, I mean, I thought she— I think she comes across like harsher than she is. She was actually really nice.

She's lovely.

We just sat and chatted for ages, like really, really nice. Do the dragons end up becoming friends?

Yes. Yes, definitely. So if I take Deborah as a great example, so this last year, the hotel that we stay at in Manchester was around about half an hour away from, um, half an hour's walk, 10 minutes in the car from where the studios were. And the problem is our studios are underground, so, so we don't see any natural daylight from 7 o'clock in the morning. Now, every morning when we're filming in Manchester, I have a brilliant running coach in Manchester, and I made him 5:30 at the hotel. We do an hour's running and then I finish off at the studios and I go in and I have my shower in the studio. Deborah brings, I leave my handbag at reception. Deborah brings my handbag in with her. We've got a lovely little setup, right? So I've got to know my way around Manchester, around the canals, around the street, everything that like the running routes. 'Cause I like to do a different route every morning with the running coach. And Deborah loves, she just wants to get out in the fresh air. And also we finish at 9 o'clock some nights. You don't want to eat a big heavy meal. So Peter and Tugel want to go off to The Ivy for dinner. And I mean, God love, I've seen Deborah come and sit and she'll have a glass of water and some edamame beans for a tea because she, because she's being sociable.

Yeah.

So anyway, it's quite a few nights this last season Deborah said, I really fancy walking back to the hotel. And I'm like, well, I know the way and I'll, we'll go the canals and I'll take you on a scenic route. So quite often the two of us have walked back, or we've been walking back, and then I've done a long detour. So we've been for like an hour's walk on a night. And I remember we have, we have people, we always walk up Canal Street. And I remember a couple of the drag acts stopping us to like, we're gonna have to have a selfie with this two dragons, you know, just out what we walked some nights. And we were like two drowned rats, me fake tans all wiping off because it's, we're in the rain or whatever. But having that time to walk and reflecting on the day and also what's going on in our lives and businesses, I became so much closer to Debbie this last year just because we had that time to go walking on an evening. It was so much more powerful than just going for dinner and chatting over dinner. Yeah, just having the two of us go and walk. And so it's been wonderful.

And you would have seen now a variety of different dragons join the show after you, and you would have also had the guest dragons recently, which is a new— yes, new phenomenon, new thing in itself. Like, how's that experience been working with so many new people? Because before you were the the newbie.

So I remember being that newbie on the show and the nerves I felt the night before. And I knew Tuca because I'd met him on my screen test, but I was terrified of meeting the others. And so when Steven started 2 years after me, I remember reaching out to him on social media and just saying, mate, here's my number, I don't mind coming down for filming the night before because I only live relatively local, so I wouldn't necessarily coming the night before, but says, I'll travel down the night before if you want to go for dinner, just so that you've met somebody before you get onto set. And I always remember he was so appreciative that I did that. And he must have been nervous because he organized the, the where we were going for dinner and whatnot. And I got there and he just didn't stop talking. And he's, he's— but he's like nervous fast talking.

Yeah.

And I remember the waitress kept coming over and kept coming. It was like an hour and we still hadn't looked at the menu because he hadn't come up for breath. And then I was trying to impart, so this is how I take me notes, and on the left-hand side I write me questions, on the right-hand side I write how much they're asking for. Do this, this is how I structure my questions. I wanted to impart all that knowledge so that he could hit the ground running, so that he didn't have to go through the 2 or 3 week learning curve that I went through. I thought, I can save him that, and also I can just make him feel a little bit better so he doesn't have the nerves that I had on my first morning. And I really appreciated that. I remember when I I put my announcement on to say I was stepping back for this year, he wrote on my Instagram and he said to me about big sis, you know, and I just thought I have been a little bit like a big sister to him on the show like that, and which is lovely. And I felt the same way about the other dragons. So we had Joe Wicks on last year.

Yeah.

And I remember Joe was so nervous. And so we did the same. I was like, do you want to go for dinner the night before? So we went for dinner the night before, and then he came running with me and my running coach the next morning. And I could see— I tell you what, there's nothing will speed you up like Joe Wicks running along behind you shouting, come on, you've got this, Davies! But I remember it's, it's how you can make somebody feel. I wanted Joe to do an amazing job. I wanted Steven to do an amazing job in that den because I don't perform less better because somebody else shines bright.

Yeah, yeah, you know, that's so unbranley.

If I can— yeah, if I can help him do better then it's not taking anything away from my performance as a dragon, but it's just great for him. And so, and it's all about how people feel. If I could make Steven feel great in that first morning on his day, he's going to do a better job. You know, Joe Wicks did a fantastic job as a guest dragon because Steven and I took him for dinner the night before and just put him at ease. Made— he was so nervous, so nervous, and he felt great. Gary Neville, I loved having Gary in the day. Yeah, we went for dinner the night before I download, but me and Gary just hit it off 'cause we're both just very real people. Kids are the same age. Yeah. Loads of empathy in how we do business. And he was so excited, just like I am. He was so desperate to find some people he could share his business knowledge with.

Mm-hmm.

He was, he would, he wanted to give. His motivation in being there in that chair was he wanted to give, he wanted to give other people an opportunity, whether it was with their money, whether it was with his knowledge. That's the right motivation.

Mm-hmm.

Any situation you're in, you've got to be there because of what you can give to somebody, not what you can take from it.

It's a great point as well. I think that a lot of people nowadays see life as like a zero-sum game, you know, like, I— for me to succeed, you have to fail, you know. Whereas actually, I think you're totally right, you know. You're, as you say, like, your, your candle won't, you know, be dimmer if someone else's is brighter. Like, we're raising it all together. And I think that's somewhat the problem in entrepreneurship, I think, and social media especially, is that people are very obsessed with tearing other people down.

Yeah.

And I feel like that's such a huge shame. And so those stories are so on brand for you because again, like, on the show you come across as somebody with, you know, incredibly high empathy.

Yeah, just, just, just a desire to give. And I feel like I've had so many experiences in my life, like some of the ones we've talked about here or whatever and if I can just tell as many people as possible them stories, I want to tell you because I want you to learn where I've made mistakes so that you don't make those mistakes. Or I want to share where I found the, the silver bullet or the golden nugget to success so that you don't have to keep looking for it. I found it, I'll show you where it is, and then you can go and succeed. Because other people succeeding doesn't take anything away from my success. And you know what, it feels bloody good. It fills your cup up. Like, I just— it's when I get to go and speak in a room full of entrepreneurs, or even like on Sunday night, I just threw a big party and I had 300 women from the northeast region come together. Most of them are like budding entrepreneurs, and just shared as many of my stories with them so they could learn from me as possible. And just seeing the look on people's faces when they— even it's just one of the stories, they take something away from knowing I've had a hugely positive impact on 300 people's lives tonight. There is no greater feeling. No amount of money I could ever make as an entrepreneur, having one of my businesses be really successful, would ever come close to that feeling. And I think that's the, that's the joy of it.

So now that you're stepping back from Dragon's Den, you've just released your book. Can you tell us a little bit about the book? I have had a good read and I feel like it's, uh, a very distilled way of taking big business lessons and like being able to learn them quickly but not making it too complex. Was that the aim? Yes.

So a lot of the people that, that follow me and listen to me aren't necessarily big massive people running businesses. They might be one-man bands, they might be people who are starting a side hustle. I do loads of coaching with Avon ladies who have got their own Avon businesses or travel counselors, you know, run their own travel businesses. And it's— I wanted no-nonsense entrepreneurial advice for levels of all different levels of entrepreneurialism, not just the big guys, even the little guys as well, and everything in between. And a lot of the principles I've learned would apply to all different businesses. Now, here's how the kind of book came about, right? So like I said, I read Duncan's autobiography, and I took so much from it, from the way it made me feel, that, that I felt compelled. I wanted to write my own autobiography. Autobiography. And I did a few years ago, and it was really, really well received. And I, I then started doing a lot of public speaking because, like I said, that, that feeling when you've inspired somebody else is so great. And I remember once speaking to like a public speaking coach, and he said to us, Sarah, the problem is you're just trying to say too much. You're trying— this is great because you've curated how much I'm talking. If you just down and said, you talk, Sarah, you'd wind me up and I'd try and give you my life story in 20 minutes and it's too much. And so this great guy Jason said to me, he worked with me to distill the things that had happened in my life down into key moments and stories, but then also what people could take away so that when I go and do, you know, a corporate speech on a stage, I'll talk about, like we talked about imposter syndrome, but then as well as telling you about my experience. I'll help you think about how you can make that relevant to your life. So in doing so, he distilled my life down to about 40 stories. And then he said, you do realize, Sarah, there's only a handful of these are in your autobiography. I've got these through talking to you and doing these in-depth interviews. So much content here, there's another book in this. And so he helped me structure the 52 lessons. And then the problem is, like, certain 10 words are like certain 100 and you can be damn sure I'm saying it in 100. So the girl who wrote my autobiography with me— I hate the call calling them ghostwriters, I don't want it to be a ghost— she's a fantastic author called Alex Hemingsley. I couldn't write a book. If I wrote my own autobiography, it'd be the size of the Bible, right? And you'd get sick of reading it after 20 pages because I'd be going around the houses telling you, right? Yeah. She distilled it down into bite-sized chunks. So I sat with Alex and I told her each one of these 52 stories, and her job was to get— if I'd taken 20 minutes to tell the story, she had to get it down into the right amount of words for it to be 6 minutes. Because I said, people are busy. 6 minutes is a reasonable amount of time to ask someone to give up a week to read a story and learn something from it. So Alex helped me get them all down to 6 minutes, and then Jason helped me do the reflection on it to understand, well, what's the lesson that people can take home, and what is the self-reflection you need? He's a brilliant business coach. What's the self-reflection you can think of? So it was like a bit of a coming together of the three minds, the three of us, me and then Alex and Jason. And I just look at that, I think it's so valuable. No matter what level of entrepreneur you are, you will take something away from it. And of the 52 lessons, even if there's only 10 that give you real tangible difference— it's not like a self-help, here's how you do this, it's the stories from my life, like a lot of the ones things we've talked about today, but with real actionable take-home pieces of how you can self-reflect and implement them in your own business. Or even people who don't have businesses and they just want to get better in their life. There's a lot of self-reflection and self-help in there as well. And, and for me, I know how much it fills my cup helping other people. And I'll go and stand on stage and I can reach hundreds of people. Brilliant. If I write a book, I can reach millions of people. And that's all I want to do is I want people to learn from my mistakes and my successes so that they can go and be even more successful than me. And then I'll have done my bit.

And it's called The Six Minute Entrepreneur.

The Six Minute Entrepreneur. And I want you to only read a chapter a week, because if you try and read through the whole lot in a weekend, you'll forget what chapter 1 said. Whereas if you just focus on little bite-sized chunks, 6 minutes a week, and then you'll be able to really, you know, hopefully have an impact. And then I did even more because I 'cause 52 wasn't enough. Every week I do like another little video on YouTube. It's just me sitting in my office just trying to tell you about whatever it is that's come up so that you can hopefully learn. But 6 minutes I think is a reasonable amount of time for people to have.

So 2 of the lessons I particularly liked, I liked The Phone Can Wait, and I thought it was an interesting story about how if you want to be great at something, you should focus on that thing.

You need to, yeah.

And I suppose that's about context switching.

Yes.

So how can someone think about having focus when there are so many different priorities in their life?

So people think multitasking— oh, if you can multitask, you're brilliant, right? I don't think there is such a thing as multitasking. I, I can't switch my brain that fast, right? If I— so to be able to do a brilliant job of chatting to you now, I'm 100% focused in the moment.

That's why we're over time.

But if I was chatting to you and trying check my phone and my WhatsApps or whatever, I wouldn't do a good job of anything. And what's the point in doing something if you're not gonna do a good job of it? Focus on one thing, do it really, really well. You keep trying to switch focus and I'm a sucker for either answering phone calls or text messages and WhatsApps coming in while I'm trying to focus on constructing an email or building a presentation. Can't do both. Phone can wait.

And the other one I loved is, are you a believer? So how does that one, how does that one work? What's the lesson in that?

For me is if you don't believe in something yourself, if you haven't got that big self-belief, who else is, who else is ever going to follow you? It's a little bit like we talked about before, you know, you set up your first business at 15 and people think, you know, that was really stupid or crazy or whatever. No, because you don't understand the impact of risk then. It's the perfect time to go and do it. You believe in yourself wholeheartedly. I think that's the difference is when I, when I set up the business When you do anything, you've got to believe you're going to succeed, because if even there's that inkling of doubt, it'll eat away at you. And also the people who follow you will have that same challenge as well.

And I know I said I had two, but my other one was the small things make a big difference. And so how does that feature in your life?

I think it's taking a moment to appreciate the small things. You can take the small things make a big difference in loads of different areas. You know, it's a lot of people subscribe to that theory of the 1%. You know, always looking for the 1% you can improve. It's them small 1% that all add up to make a big difference. But I think another way to look at it as well is, is it's the, it's the small things in the business that bring me the greatest pleasure, and that's what keeps me engaged with the business and wanting to build it. So I think, don't— you know, sometimes it's not, it's not winning a big multi-million pound contract, it's, you know, seeing that apprentice pass their apprenticeship and know that I've made— I'm the one that set them off on that successful life path as a result of what I've done. That might only be one out of hundreds of staff that you've got, but you've had a really big impact on someone's life there.

Just to end, if you could go back and give yourself some advice when you were starting out, what would you say?

If I could tell little Sarah one thing, I'd just tell her that she was enough. And that's the big thing that I spent all of my 20s trying to be somebody that I wasn't, suffering from the imposter syndrome and believing that it was— I was lucky that I'd got into a room or I'd got an opportunity, or, you know, I made it onto the board of directors for the Craft and Hobby Association. So I was power dressing to go to the board meetings to try and justify my space there, because I never felt like I was good enough to be wherever I was. I sit here now thinking, if I'm in a room, I think that room's bloody lucky to have me in it. And I think that's the difference. And I'd I just feel pleased that I realized that in my 30s. So a lot of people don't even realize that in their 50s and 60s.

Well, thank you so much for coming on Wake Up and for all the people that watch Dragons' Den when you joined. Thank you from all of us because it was awesome.

Thank you. I'm going to miss it so much.

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