013 - The Koerner Office Livestream

One more time. If I can go live, and if I can, then great. If I can't, then we just won't go live. All right, so we're still good on YouTube now let's try this. I'm, like, about to quit going live all together just because there's. There's always issues.

Yeah, it's hard to find, like, a good live streaming software. I haven't found one.

Yes, it is.

Yeah.

Okay, so I think we're good. I can still hear you. Okay, cool. Okay.

All right.

Just. Okay. All right, Seva. Sorry about that. So I hear that you have a SaaS business that you're trying to grow.

That's right.

Yep.

All right, let's hear about your business. I want to hear all about it.

Okay, cool. Maybe I'll give you a little bit of background before I tell you about the business. So you kind of have an idea how I got into it, and then I would love some ideas on growth strategy and kind of where to go, because I feel like now we're, like, in a super interesting spot anyway. So to give you some background, I've been working with Shopify for, like, eight years, started doing development work, and ran an agency for many years. And a few years ago, I kind of decided that I wanted to create my own product for Shopify. I had a lot of knowledge for how the platform works. I knew kind of what customers were looking for, more or less, and I set out to create my own product. And it took, like, two years of brainstorming different ideas and all that. And last year, I kind of settled on what I was planning to do, and I ran with it. And it's a very different project than what I normally do. As a Shopify agency owner, I've mainly just worked on Shopify websites. So jumping into that whole software space, developing apps was like a whole new realm. Figuring out just everything as we go. The design, the development, the server structure. I didn't even realize Shopify apps are actually not even, like, hosted on the Shopify server. Like, you're hosting your own apps, and it's basically like an iframe in the site.

So this.

This whole thing was just, like, very, very interesting, but I jumped in headfirst. I. I probably should have done some more research before going full force, but maybe it's like, you know, kind of like one of those things about, you know, like, marriage, like, I had, you know, and everything about that person would you actually have, you know, with that.

You proceed. So you already own a Shopify agency or at Least you did at the time.

Yeah, I still run it now and I'm trying to transition more to having this.

Right. Like it's a little bit of friction to help get. To help them. Make them more likely to get to checkout.

Exactly. And the app itself has proven to be helpful to many store owners. Basically, it's been four months already. You could probably see we achieved built by Shopify status. We're featured on the Shopify homepage anyways, so we're building it out. It's. It's actually a much bigger project than I'd anticipated. The app is turning into a full featured kind of discounting and coupon system for Shopify. So there's a lot of other features that are going to be introduced down the road and a lot of lessons that I can share, you know, about this whole SaaS base and, you know, customer service being number one and, you know, building your customer roadmap, building your development roadmap around the customers, all these things. Anyways, but the reason that I wanted to reach out to you was that first of all, our app is free. And it's a strategic decision to make the app free, A, to gain, you know, a sizable chunk of whatever market share we can in this space and B, to get the feedback to kind of put us in a position we can where I feel comfortable charging people for it. But that being said, it's, it's a massive investment. I mean, it's, you know, so every week is just money going into development and into our VA team and customer support team and marketing team. So I can't sustain it forever. But my question to you is one, at what point do you kind of know in this space that perhaps it is time that you can start charging for the product? You know, you've built out enough of a product that has a large enough gap between. You can start charging. For example, if we, if we made this paid in the beginning, it would be, you know, very easy to make a similar app. But having built it out already over the course of, you know, months and going on to a year, adding features and all these different things, it's. It's not such an easy app to develop anymore. It's become, you know, kind of its own animal.

Yeah.

Anyway, so I'm sorry, I just, that's, that's my question to you. And you know, obviously any advice you have for me on the journey. It's my first software company. My, you know, I fought it through, obviously the end goal, like an acquisition, and if I can get it up to a certain amount of mrr. Like these, these things. These app companies are like at a 4 or 5x multiple, which is insane. Also the reason that I got into this business. Yeah, that's what I've seen in the Shopify space.

So.

Okay, do you have any data on how effective your app is at increasing conversion rate or average order value? Does your app capture that?

So I've been very hesitant to put out precise numbers. I think right now we're still trying to figure out exactly what those numbers are and how we can say comfortably without being like, hey, like, install this app to boost your, you know, conversion rate by 8% or whatever it is. But do you want to.

Internally.

I have. I have an estimate. Yeah, but it's. It's very rough. It's. It's only been a few months that we've been testing this out.

Okay, and how does it look?

It's definitely an increase. You know, we've seen stores that, with the coupon, it could be, you know, anywhere from like a 2% increase in conversion all the way up to 10%.

And what is your hesitancy to release that data? Just because it's. You have a small sample size.

Small.

Sample size, varying sample size across stores. There's a lot of things that go into kind of the effectiveness of coupons. So, for example, if you have a store that's selling an item that's like $15, you know, and you're offering a $1 coupon, okay, like it's. It's redeemable, but people are not going to be so incentivized as a store. That's all offering a $500 item with $100 coupon, for example. So that's another part that goes into it as well. And I think right now my goal is to build up our marketing, you know, try to get those case studies from some of our clients, try to build up actual data that we can present. And I just don't feel like I'm at a point where I can do that yet.

What have you done to grow so far?

How.

How have you gotten these first users?

We're, like, at a very interesting type of growth. Like, I can show you. I don't know if I. If it's possible, just like block out the numbers at some point, but it's like something like that.

Oh, wow. Okay. Is that mostly organic? Like, you just.

It's all organic.

You publish it in the App Store and go.

Yeah, running like some ads, very minor on the App Store. And I just brought on someone as like a full time marketing person. So just spinning up like social media, going full time into content. I think our main play is going to be app partnerships from what I understand. Seems to be working pretty well.

Okay.

But I guess it's, you know, we'll see.

Are you able to a b test pricing? I don't know how it works on the back end on the app store, but would you be able to run paid ads towards your app with a price tag on it to see how they might perform?

Yes. And that would degree by ab testing you mean like the actual pricing of the app? It would have to be like you'd run a certain price for a month and then change it and run another price. To be honest, the Shopify app store architecture is not as great as people make it out to be. So there is limiting and lacking a lot of features. But the data that we get is quite limited from it.

Okay. Have you ever thought of making your own Shopify Facebook group, like for Shopify store owners? I know a guy that has built a Shopify app crazy fast. And the way he did it was by first starting a Facebook group for Shopify store owners, not selling anything, and then kind of building his product in public in the. In the Facebook group, even though it's already built. Right. Like, hey guys, what do you think of this feature? What do you think of that feature? And he's the only admin, so he can talk about it as much or as little as he wants. And then over time, it just becomes this very organic marketing vehicle to drive traffic to the app of people that feel indebted to you. I know it sounds easier than I'm or it's harder than I'm making it out to be. Just, oh, let's just create a Facebook group and people will flock to it. But a lot of times if you find a category of Facebook groups that's popular, for instance, real estate, find a subcategory of that that seems to be underserved. I started a Facebook group a couple months ago specifically for off market RV park deals. There were a ton of Facebook groups for real estate, a handful of Facebook groups for RV and mobile home parks, but nothing for off market. And I got this idea from my friend. I can't claim it, but people just come in organically and it's. It's top of funnel. So it seems like you're kind of using the app store for top of funnel. But what if you had that downline a little bit, right. And you had some sort of A community that you could push down the funnel to the App Store.

Yeah, that's actually really interesting. Do you think that promoting this is something that would be promoted organically within the group or, um, meaning, like, he would respond, you know, your friend you mentioned would respond, hey, by the way, I think this app would work really well for what you're doing. Or is it something that's like. Like part of the group? Like this app is, you know, sponsoring the group or whatever it is?

It's really neither. It's the admin, slash creator of the group, just openly post about how the app is going. Right. So he's not commenting on other posts and he's not doing sponsored posts. He's just talking about building in. Oh, we just had this annoying customer that asked for a refund, yada, yada yada. And they just come to know this app and then come to use it. I also think that you should get on the phone with your customers. Most Shopify App Store owners, they don't think to or they don't want to because it's high friction, but they will tell you exactly what your app is lacking. Whereas, even if you have like a feedback form or I see you have great reviews, and if you get them on the phone, give them an Amazon gift card or something, they will get very specific on what they love about it and what they don't love about it.

One of the things that we're running into is like, actually with our customers because I think it's super important to ask for feedback and to try to understand what's lacking. And one of the things that we notice is that there are some.

Issues.

And doesn't necessarily have to be because of our app. But for example, like, there's other apps on Shopify that offer functionality like, like quantity, upsell. So they have a little thing where, oh, buy three, get 50% off or something like that. And what happens is a lot of those apps, just the way that they work, they actually. Because our discount takes place in the product page. Those discounts usually take place in the cart page. When they apply it, it just overwrites our discount. So a lot of times people come to us, like, your app, like, your app doesn't work. Like, you know, and we have to be like. Like, it's a little bit of a problem. Like, there's other apps are causing, like, some compatibility issues with our app. So, I mean, I'm curious to know if you have any suggestions on handling those types of things or, you know, maybe ways to work around you know, those issues, I guess, maybe even building those features into our app if they're, if they're looking for them.

If that is a pain point, then I would suggest doing exactly that, building it into your app if it's not too cumbersome. Have you, Are you able to change your pricing model or when you do introduce a pricing model, are you able to charge a percentage of like savings or a percentage of the, of the cart?

Yes, but I'm hesitant to do that because I've been reading online like some people that have done that and some customers get upset because the pricing isn't so clear up front. So then they get the bill at the end of the month and a lot of people like, wait, but where does this come from?

Right.

I could see that you like usage based apps.

Yeah, yeah, I, there's a lot of apps that make or that charge a lot more money than you might think on the surface because of the usage based pricing. But if I were to suggest three things. I would suggest either piggybacking onto some existing Facebook groups for Shopify store owners or starting your own and just getting it going. You can use built with to find a list of Shopify stores to advertise them to. I would also suggest talking to your users actually on the phone if possible. Ask them straight up, would you pay for this? How much would you pay for? And you can even tell them, like, listen, be honest with me and I'll make this free for life. Like, I just want feedback, right? What would you pay for? And I'll keep it free for you. The third thing I would do is I would go ahead with your data that shows your increase of conversion rate and I would put that front and center on your app store. If you want to put an asterisk on there, fine. But anytime you present data, there's a million wh, ifs or variables that could change the outcome of that data. And you can be as transparent or as opaque as you want on that. But I think that would make a really, really big difference because as a Shopify store owner myself, I want to juice that conversion rate every bit that I can and any tool that I can find that will help me do that I want. So I would, I would put that more front and center.

In regards to the third point that you mentioned with, you know, advertising the conversion rate increase, how would you go about that? Would you set that up as like a case study and then present that to someone so they have like a reference to it or. I'm just trying to think of a way to do it that people are not going to get upset. You know, like, how can you claim this number? Like, where are you getting this information from?

I don't think that's going to happen. I think it would take a large amount of customers to be seeing that or experiencing something contrary to what you're stating for there to be someone upset. I think you're overthinking that. I think you should do a case study and email that out to your current customers and then take like the tldr of that case study and put that front and center.

Makes sense.

But yeah, I hope that's helpful.

Yeah, no, I, I really appreciate it. I guess in, in your mind, do you have any feedback on the app itself? Like as, as an idea of what you know, do you have any.

It reminds me of when I, we go to the grocery store, we go to HEB and they have paper coupons in the aisle and I'm just like, what are you doing? But they know what they're doing, right? And my kid always rips all the coupons off whether or not we're buying the item. But it's just like it's strategic friction and it's the same thing, but in real life you grab the coupon and it's like, okay, now store go to H E B and they have paper coupons in the aisle. And I'm just like what are you doing? But they know what they're doing, right? And my kid always rips all the coupons off whether or not we're buying the item. But it's just like it's strategic friction and it's the same thing, but in real life you grab the coupon, it's and it's like, okay, now, now I need to take this somewhere and hand it to somebody. It's just a digital version of that and I'm pretty shocked that it didn't exist already. So I do think that your idea has merit and it has legs. I would be very hesitant to hire a full time marketer or to really pour resources into it because I think this is something that you could bootstrap fairly, fairly cheaply.

So to what degree do you think you could bootstrap it? I'm just curious like how just by.

Doing these three things, by actually getting on the phone yourself with these users experimenting with the paid ads a little more. I just have. Maybe I'm too cheap. I just have a hard time understanding what a full time marketer would do at this stage in the process of Your. Of your app. I. I feel like you're too early.

I think full time, I would. I would probably say full time employee, part time marketer.

But.

The main thing that I figured would be really helpful with was our content. So being able to create YouTube videos to explain our app and different functionalities and social media posts and stuff. And then it turned out that we actually had a big demand for bringing on someone to help with customer support because we're getting a lot of queries. And so it turned into more like a full time position and helping with that as well.

Multiple roles then.

Yeah, basically.

Okay, that makes more sense.

Just one person and we have our freelance development teams. It's fairly bootstrapped. Maybe I made it sound a little bit bigger than it is, but it's really just me, freelance development team, and this one other person that I'm working with.

Okay, that makes sense. Well, I've got a jet, man, but thanks for coming on. Let me know how it goes.

I appreciate it, man. Thank you so much for your advice and I'll keep you posted how things go. Maybe we could reconnect at some point.

Okay, sounds great. Thank you.

Love that.

Thank you, Chris. Take care. See ya. All right, we've got Michael. We have Ben. Ben, I'm sorry it took so long. You can come back. I'll put you in right after Michael. Michael just joined, so let's get right into that. Michael.

Yes, sir.

How you doing, man?

Hey, Chris.

I'm good.

How about you?

Good. So I've had. I've had your question in front of me for a couple weeks and it's really interesting. You're out in West Texas. Like, how many people start an untraditional school in West Texas?

Apparently just one.

Yeah, that's why I wanted to talk to you. I always rate the questions from one to ten and I think you were a solid eight and a half. So, so awesome.

Well, thank you.

Yeah. So tell me about Amarillo Acton Academy.

Yeah, so it's. It's a learner driven school. It was created. Acton was created by a guy named Jeff Sandifer in Austin about 12 years ago. He has an Acton MBA program. And the story is, why can't there be a school in the 21st century that is relevant? I mean, nobody disagrees that the school system is a joke. Traditional school does not replicate anything like what we see out in the real world, whether you're an entrepreneur or not. And so he built the school kind of based on the Acton MBA, which is a no frills 12 month you know, really, really fast MBA program. And so he launched the school. Several people said, man, I want to do this in my city. So then he created the ability to basically be an affiliate. And so we started licensing agreement. Yeah, I guess so. I mean, they have zero, they have zero input on how we run the school. They basically give us access to materials and stuff like that, and we run the school as we see fit. So it's the exact opposite model of the traditional school, where the young people are in charge. I mean, we don't have teachers. We have Socratic guides. They're not even allowed to answer questions in the studio.

Are you willing to share revenue numbers?

Sure, yeah.

Yeah. How long have you been opened? And then if you could just share, like, yearly or monthly, whatever is most relevant.

Yeah, we started in 2020, right in the middle of COVID with like, six families. All right. Great timing, actually. We had four families. We had six learners and four families. Fast forward to today. We have 20, and we charge 8,500 a year. And so, I mean, our revenue is going to be around 120. I don't know what the math is.

You said six learners or eight.

We have 20.

Oh, 20, I say. Yeah. You started with six.

Right.

Okay. So 170 grand a year, roughly. Okay. And has that been growing steadily for the last four years?

Yes.

We had a few families leave last year. Um, our middle school is real small, and so some of the families felt like, hey, we want, we want our kids to be around more than just three or four other kids. And yeah, so we had a few leave.

But was that the feedback that they're just. You didn't have enough critical mass at that age, Right?

Yeah.

Okay.

But, you know, I, I guess that's why I'm asking. The question is, like, well, what's more important? I, I, my question is, you know, how old are your kids?

8, 10, 12, 14.

Okay. So, yeah, it's like, I just, I don't know if I'm not getting the right message across, if I'm not communicating this correctly. Everyone that I sit down one on one, everybody leaves a conversation going, oh, my gosh, this is amazing. This is, this is so great. You're doing, you're doing what needs to be done and like, okay, great. You want to apply? I don't know. I don't, I don't think so.

I'm not sure. Such a big change. Right. And yeah, I want to, I want to go back to the question you just asked, where what's more important and I don't even think that's the right question because I don't think you're going to change their mind if they think that having friends at school is more important. I, I would think, I would say you just attack that from a different angle because that's just, I don't think they're going to change their mind. Right.

Yeah.

I mean you're clearly and naturally more biased than your potential customers because you love this and this is your baby and you know all about it inside and out. But to them, I think they're just looking at this like a huge, huge life change and it's kind of like, it's like we should move to Europe. Oh, that sounds amazing. Let's move to Europe. Then it's like, ah, too hard. This is an actual conversation that I've had with my wife.

Yeah.

So do you have any idea of what your percentage close rate is from people that are interested or receive the info packet or talk to you in person?

No, it would be very, it'd be very small. We have a, we have a lead magnet on our website and I get notified when folks, you know, sign up for that. And I mean we probably have three or four a week that will request more information and they'll go through a three email series, all of them with some kind of call to action to either schedule a call or apply. And they did, they run through that. Nothing really happens. And then I have an assistant, I run another company also and so I have my assistant and that company kind of helped me out. So she'll follow up with the ones that have gone through it. After a week she'll hop in there and email them and say, hey, just any questions. And usually it's just crickets.

Now let's talk more specifically about now. I need to take this somewhere and hand it to somebody. It's just a digital version of that and I'm pretty shocked that it didn't exist already. So I do think that your idea has merit and it has legs. I would be very hesitant to hire a full time marketer or to really pour resources into it because I think this is something that you could bootstrap fairly, fairly cheaply.

So to what degree do you think you could bootstrap it? I'm just curious like, like how just.

By doing these three things, by actually getting on the phone yourself with these users experimenting with the paid ads a little more. I just have, maybe I'm too cheap. I just have a hard time understanding what a full time marketer would do. At this stage in the process of your. Of your app, I. I feel like you're too early.

I think full time, I would probably say full time employee, part time marketer.

But.

The main thing that I figured would be really helpful with was our content. So being able to create YouTube videos to explain our app and different functionalities and social media posts and stuff. And then it turned out that we actually had had a big demand for bringing on someone to help with customer support because we're getting a lot of queries. And so it turned into more like a full time position and helping with that as well.

Multiple roles then.

Yeah, basically.

Okay, that makes more sense.

Just one person and we have our freelance development teams. It's fairly bootstrapped. Maybe I made it sound a little bit bigger than it is, but it's really just me, freelance development team, and this, this one other person that I'm working with.

Okay, that makes sense. Well, I've got a jet, man, but thanks for coming on. Let me know how it goes.

I appreciate it, man. Thank you so much for your advice and I'll keep you posted how things go. Maybe we could reconnect at some point.

Okay, sounds great. Thank you.

Love that.

Thank you, Chris.

Take care.

See ya. All right, we've got Michael. We have Ben. Ben, I'm sorry it took so long. You can come back. I'll put you in right after M. Michael just joined, so let's get right into that. Michael.

Yes, sir.

How you doing, man?

Hey, Chris.

I'm good.

How about you?

Good. So I've had. I've had your question in front of me for a couple weeks, and it's really interesting. You're out in West Texas. Like, how many people start an untraditional school in West Texas?

Apparently just one.

Yeah, that's why I wanted to talk to you. I always rate the questions from one to ten, and I think you were a solid eight and a half, so.

Awesome.

Well, thank you.

Yeah. So tell me about Amarillo Acton Academy.

Yeah, so it's a learner driven school. It was created. Acton was created by a guy named Jeff Sandifer in Austin about 12 years ago. He has an Acton MBA program. And the story is, why can't there be a school in the 21st century that is relevant? I mean, nobody disagrees that the school system is a joke. Traditional school does not replicate anything like what we see out in the real world, whether you're an entrepreneur or not. And so he built the school kind of based on the Acton MBA, which is a no frills 12 month, you know, really, really fast MBA program. And so he launched the school. Several people said, man, I want to do this in my city. So then he created the ability to basically be an affiliate. And so we started.

Licensing agreement.

Yeah, I guess so. I mean, they have zero, they have zero input on how we run the school. They basically give us access to materials and stuff like that. And we, we, we run the school as we see fit. So it's the exact opposite model of the traditional school where the, the young people are in charge. I mean, we don't have teachers, we have Socratic guides. They're not even allowed to answer questions in the studio.

Are you willing to share revenue numbers?

Sure, yeah.

Yeah. How long have you been opened? And then if you could just share, like, yearly or monthly, whatever is most relevant.

Yeah, we started in 2020 right in the middle of COVID with like six families. All right, great timing.

Actually.

We had four families. We had six learners and four families. Fast forward to today. We have 20, and we charge 8,500 a year. And so, I mean, our revenue is going to be around 120. I don't know what the math is.

You said six learners or eight.

We have 20.

Oh, 20, I'd say. Yeah. You started with six.

Right.

Okay. So 170 grand a year, roughly. Okay. And has that been growing steadily for the last four years?

Yes. We had a few families leave last year. Our middle school is real small, and so some of the families felt like, hey, we want, we want our kids to be around more than just three or four other kids. And yeah, so we had a few leave.

But was that the feedback that there just. You didn't have enough critical mass at that age?

Right. Yeah.

Okay.

But, you know, I guess that's why I'm asking. The question is like, well, what's more important? I, I, my question is, you know, how old are your kids?

8, 10, 12, 14.

Okay.

So, yeah, it's like, what? I just, I don't know if I'm not getting the right message across, if I'm not communicating this correctly. Everyone that I sit down, one on one, everybody leaves a conversation going, oh, my gosh, this is amazing. This is, this is so great. You're doing, you're, you're doing what needs to be done and like, okay, great. You want to apply? I don't know. I don't, I don't think so.

I'm not sure. Such a big change. Right. And yeah, I want to, I want to go back to the question you just asked. Where what's more important? And I don't even think that's the right question because I don't think you're going to change their mind if they think that having friends at school is more important. I, I would think, I would say you just attack that from a different angle because that's just, I don't think they're going to change their mind. Right.

Yeah.

I mean you're clearly and naturally more biased than your potential customers because you love this and this is your baby and you know all about it inside and out. But to them, I think they're just looking at this like a huge, huge life change. And it's kind of like, it's like we should move to Europe. Oh, that sounds amazing. Let's move to Europe. Then it's like, ah, too hard. This is an actual conversation that I've had with my wife.

Yeah.

So do you have any idea of what your percentage close rate is from people that are interested or receive the info packet or talk to you in person?

No, it would be very, it'd be very small. We have a, we have a lead magnet on our website and I get notified when folks, you know, sign up for that. And I mean we probably have three or four a week that will request more information and they'll go through a three email series, all of them with a, some kind of call to action to either schedule a call or apply. And they did, they get, they run through that. Nothing really happens. And then I have assistant, I run another company also. And so I have my assistant and that company kind of helped me out. So she'll, she'll follow up with the ones that have gone through it. After a week she'll hop in there and email them and say, hey, just, you know, any questions and usually it's just crickets.

Now let's talk more specifically about your funnel. So they go to the website, they fill out the form and they then they get a three email series and then. Is that the order of it?

Yes.

Okay, and then at what point do you reach out and try to get them on the phone?

About a week after the last email?

After the, A week after the third email? Yes. And how long does it take for those first three emails to go out?

Every two days. One, One every.

So six. Six days.

I'm gonna pull up your website here. So they're clicking request more info specifically, right?

Yes.

Okay, so how many people click schedule a phone call versus request more info. Do you have any data on that?

Oh, I would say hardly anyone schedules A phone call. I mean, once a month maybe. Very few people schedule a phone call.

Okay, so when they do though, are they more hot to trot? Are they more likely to close?

Well, no, because what we found is the ones that do, it's, it's more like they were just, you know, they just have a very specific question, like, hey, is this a. They didn't read through the website. They're like, oh, this is a private school. You charge tuition. Like, yeah, you know, they're like, oh, I'm looking for a charter school. Sorry, thanks. And they're just, they're just kind of like in a hurry. Not like, oh my gosh, I can't believe the school is in our city. This is so amazing. Tell me more about it. Yeah, that, that, that hardly ever happens.

How are you driving traffic to your website today?

I, I'm not, I don't, I. Correct. Yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't pay for ads. We have a really strong, pretty strong social media presence. My wife does all that stuff and so we're really active on there and we've had people that reached out to me and I followed you guys for years. I love what you're doing and you know, then ask for more information. So really we don't have anything that is paid. That's driving traffic. Mostly because I'm just scared of Google Ads. I've never used Google Ads in any of my companies. I'm kind of scared of. It seems like a scam. I don't really know. Maybe you, maybe, maybe I'm wrong.

With all due respect, you're wrong. I'm sure I've felt the same way. And one of my business partners still feels the same way, even though, and it's not Nick, it's another one. And I love him to death. But even though we have seen positive ROI from Google Ads for four years straight, he's still just back on himself, right? So I get it. And there's a lot of people and I've read stories of companies, mostly billion plus dollar companies that have just turned off like and I told them like a month ago, I was like, I'm going to turn off ads and just watch ads and traffic died and he went and turned it back on himself, right? So I get it. And there's a lot of people and I've read stories of companies, mostly billion plus dollar companies that have just turned off all Google Ads and didn't skip a beat. That happens. But that's because they're not tracking it closely or they're tracking the wrong thing, or they're doing like brand campaigns for brand awareness. Kind of like a Coca Cola billboard on the highway. You know, like, who knows if that actually works. But I don't do that stuff ever because I'm like you, I'm cheap. I don't want to waste money on ads, especially to a multitrillion dollar company that is happy to take it and have they know all the tricks in the book to take it. Right. And so I will only do paid ads that show me a very clear attribution. And so I love the idea of Google Ads for this business because it is local and because Google will tell you exactly who in your county is searching for terms that might be relevant to your business. I don't recommend that you go out get an agency. I recommend that you actually invest some time to learn it yourself. Google Ads is, in my opinion, 80, 20.

Right.

Like you can spend a few hours learning the 80% of it and see a positive ROI. And an agency, they might help you scale it better, but you don't really need to scale it because you're not looking to take over the world. And they'll help you hone in that last 20% while they're really refine the keywords and they'll add in some new keywords. But I don't think you're really going to need that. I think Google Ads could help. Have you spent time interviewing or talking to other Acton license licensees to see what they're doing or how they're doing?

Yeah, a few. And I think it. Amarillo is a very unique situation. The other ones are mostly in bigger cities. And so in Austin there's probably six or seven of these and they're all on a wait list. I think a lot of it has to do with, you know, income. Right. So I mean, you've got folks. Yeah, I mean it's just everyone's, you know, private school in Austin is 30, 40 grand. So the Acton, Acton, Acton's down there are charging 15, 20,000 a year. And that's the cheap version of private school. And so that seems to be what I've found. There's not a. There's a couple of outliers like one, like in Nebraska that has caught traction and I guess got in with the right few families and everybody told everyone about it and you know, they've got 40, 50 learners in their school, but not, I haven't seen a lot like demographic or city like Amarillo that's just really Caught a lot of traction.

Yeah. So you've got. I wish I was a savant and I had all these memorized, but I would just looked it up. You've got 200,000 people in Amarillo. You've got just under a million in Austin. Right. So if Austin has six or seven, theoretically, if the demographics were the same, which they're not, then you could support an Acton with a wait list. Right. Theoretically. I believe even without doing data. I think you believe that too.

Right.

That.

That it is possible to completely fill up your wait list.

Yeah.

And let me be clear, like, if we had 60 out of 200, I mean, I'm looking for, I'm looking for 60 learners.

That's it. Yeah. If you were to take your 20 learners and take their parents, and how would they rate their satisfaction with you on a scale of 1 to 10? Like, how much are they just in love with what you're doing?

All in. And we, we actually have to do a net promoter score and turn that in every quarter to act. And that's one of the things that we do. And it's, it's on a scale of five and we're, we're 4.5 every time.

Do you know how that compares to other locations?

No, they don't share that with the network. I haven't seen. But you, you can't drop below a four. I think before you start getting like, maybe you shouldn't be an Acton anymore.

Yeah. If I were you, I would do several things. I would get other Acton owners on the phone as soon as possible because you could, you could bang your head against the wall trying to learn all these things. But I guarantee you, you're going to find one person that just makes one little comment that just sets off the light bulb for you, you know, like, oh, well, no, they're gonna be like, well, don't. No, don't do that. Like, you gotta go through the schools or you gotta go through the whoever. And it's just gonna be this light bulb moment that will save you a lot of time and a lot of money. So I would just cold call them, honestly. Oh, and.

And then they would, they would be fine with that. The network's super generous. There's only 300 actins all over the world. And so they're very generous with their time. If one calls another one, we would always help each other.

When was the last time you called, like corporate and asked them for help?

You can't really do that. There, there isn't. There's one guy that's kind of over the whole network. It's a very, very skeleton crew, I guess if you want to say it's, it's very, very similar to CrossFit. That's just how CrossFit got started, right? They, they kind of put the thing out there and you affiliates, you could take it and run with it. Whatever you want to do is great.

Okay, so that's the first thing I do. I would talk to the other owners. I would look seriously into Google Ads because Google is more intent. Like Facebook ads are fine, but you want to find people that are searching for like alternative schools, alternative schools near me or unhappy with my school or something like that. It might not be as direct as you're thinking.

Right, and where do I start with that? Because I have done that a few times in some of my other businesses. Like I'll get on there. I have a Google Ads account and I just get overwhelmed like so quickly, like. And where would you start? If I had zero experience to learn.

About Google Ads, I would start on YouTube. I, I can't recommend anyone specific, but I would bet there's dozens of very high quality YouTubers that specifically talk about like the how to of Google Ads. You can go take a 50udemy course. I had a friend that did that in short term rentals and it changed the game for him. That might be a little more structured for you, but if not Udemy then, then just YouTube.

Is it you to me?

YouTube, sorry. U D E M Y the letter U D E M Y U To me, yeah, it's a course platform. And another thing I would do, which I'm even more optimistic about is I would take a page out of like the whole click funnels. I would go to like the cringiest course gurus you can find and look at how their funnel works. Because it works like there's, there's this Airbnb mastermind and this, I don't know what it's called. I don't want to promote them, but I think it costs like 12 grand to like learn how to be a short term rental owner. And this website does like 20, 30 million a year selling these high ticket courses. I would go find one like that. Okay. And just reverse engineer exactly what they're doing and treat it just like that. Because the biggest red flag to me about your whole funnel right now is that someone's really excited about what you're doing and they fill out a form and then they don't speak to a human for over a week. I think that you need to take your form and you need to shrink it down and just do name, phone, email. That's it. Not kids name, nothing else. Name, phone, email. And then you or someone needs to get them on the phone immediately and strive to get them to your facility in person as soon as possible. I guarantee you, your close rate will just explode. Because it's just. This is just. It's just sales. It's a lead. And every. Every second that goes by that you don't get that lead, preferably in person, if not on the phone, they just get colder and colder. And especially with such a big life decision like this, you got to talk to them faster than that. Okay, yeah, that's what I would do. Go find a really cringey guy on Instagram and look at what his process is and copy it and just put something actually ethical behind it.

Yeah.

Cool.

Well, thanks for your time, Chris.

I appreciate what you do.

Anytime, Michael. Let me know how it goes.

I will.

Thanks.

All right. Yep. See ya. See ya. David.

Hey, how are we doing? Hey.

Good. How are you, man?

I'm doing fantastic.

All right. You got a little kid there.

I always have a little kid. That's just my life right now. My youngest, he's two. His name's Owen.

Owen. Hi, Owen.

He can't hear us because he's in the headphone. Hope he's not too loud.

There it is. No, no, that's fine. All right, so let me pull up. All right, you've got a bootstrap company that's about to hit 10 million in revenue, right?

Yeah, we're tracking and do about 11 or 12 run rate right now.

Awesome. Good for you. And what type of company?

So I know I can't get too specific, but we're in the outdoor space. Kind of a weird niche. We sell small log cabin kits and ship them all over North America.

That's cool. Okay, who's your target customer?

So our Target customer is 40 to 65 years old. They live in the city, but they have a rural property outside the city. And they are generally small business owners, professionals, kind of, you know, middle class, upper middle class people. I would say their values are like family. They want an extra space for their family to stay so they can have everybody at the cottage or everybody at the lake house or the like.

Okay, and how much do your homes cost?

So not only homes are like, you know, small kind of bedrooms essentially, but somewhere between about 6,000 on the low end to about 20,000 on the high end.

Wow. Super cheap. And that's For a kit.

That's for a kit. So you build that yourself. And part of the experience is that you're building a bunky with your friends and family and they're, they're like a Lego kit or like Lincoln Logs for adults, if that makes sense.

That is awesome. And they're meant for the homeowner to put together themselves. It's easy enough.

Yeah, but, yeah, about 85% of homeowners built themselves. We've got a really great set of manuals and build videos and build support to get people through it. So no one has tried and failed. Everyone that's tried to do it has pulled it off.

Wow. Now what type of foundation do they need to put these down?

Depends on the area, but you can get by for like with as little as just put some gravel and some patio stones down. Or you can make it as complicated as like a, you know, a full length cement pad if you want to go nuts.

Okay. And what about electrical and plumbing?

Doable in a lot of areas. Once you stray into plumbing, you're into permits required, so a lot of people avoid it for that reason. But the electrical side of things, you can just run conduit on the walls. It's pretty straightforward to do that.

So it's not, it's not glamping, it's not a tiny home. It's a proper cap you put together yourself. That's 10 to 20 grand.

Exactly. Right.

Okay, that's really interesting.

And although we do sell to a lot of glamp grounds and like we have, we're. We're kind of trying to get the B2. Like, our B2B dimension is a lot of people coming through the B2C funnels and still buying it for a campground or for like a wedding venue or for a trailer park, that type of thing. And so B2B is like. I'm like, well, if that makes sense, we should be able to reach out to B B2B clients, but we have not really nailed that yet.

Okay, so you're mostly doing B2C.

Yeah, exactly.

How are you finding them?

So primarily pay per click on social media. No one has tried and failed. Everyone's tried to do it, has pulled it off.

Wow. Now what type of foundation do they need to put these down?

Depends on the area, but you can get by for like with as little as just put some gravel and some patio stones down. Or you can make it as complicated as like a, you know, a full length cement pad if you want to go nuts.

Okay, and what about electrical and Plumbing.

Doable in a lot of areas. Once you stray into plumbing, you're into permits required. So a lot of people avoid it for that reason. But the electrical side of things, you can just run conduit on the walls. It's pretty straightforward to do that.

So it's not glamping. It's not a tiny home. It's a proper cap you put together yourself. That's 10 to 20 grand.

Exactly. Right.

Okay. That's really.

And then we do a big promotion every year we give a bunky away but still pay per click. Feeding that funnel into a 30 day kind of win this bunkie and then oh, you didn't win. So buy one.

Okay. What percentage of your leads are closing? Site unseen. No sales call versus after a sales call.

The site unseen thing. It's rare. Although we do sell to a lot of glamp grounds. And like we have. We're like people are usually emailing in once or twice. There isn't a lot of randoms that just come in. And we're not an E commerce source. We've experimented with having E commerce but generally with a larger ticket item they're going to want to like fill you out. They usually call once or twice. Email in like there's like three or four touch points before. We're kind of trying to get the B. Like our B2B dimension is a lot of people coming through the B2C funnels and still buying it for campground or for like a wedding venue or for a trailer park or that type of thing. And so B2B is like. I'm like well if that makes sense. We should be able to reach out to B. Are they like feel safe enough to give us money over the Internet b2b clients but we have not really nailed that yet.

Okay. So you're mostly.

And then we also have visit like we have a factory where we make them and so people will come in and see we have a little village of bunkies there as well. And then we're. Yeah, so people will see them sometimes in person. But it's a good. It's a good minority of people that have never actually liked physically been there. And then we're working on a virtual doing B2C. Yeah, exactly.

How are you finding them?

Tour. So we've got a virtual tour experience that you can kind of take a salesperson. So primarily pay per click on. On social media, guide you through a couple models and. And sell you that way.

That's awesome. And have. Have you ever done like a group sales call Or a webinar, Anything.

Yeah, I've ex like abysmal show up rates right now. So I've been, I've been running them bi weekly and like and then we do a big promotion every year. We give a bunky away but still pay per click. Feeding that funnel into a 30 day kind of win this bunky and then oh, you didn't win. So buy one.

Okay.

You know, 50 people sign up and one shows up. Yeah, we're trying to tweak that.

But what percentage of your leads are closing sight unseen, no sales call versus after a sales call.

The site unseen thing. It's rare. But the contest that we do, the giveaway, I'm doing a series of live streams where you know, we'll do one on the foundation, one on you know, stains. And so there's like an educational dimension to that. And if they go through that 30 days and they're tuned into those liar. Like people are usually emailing in once or twice. There isn't a lot of randoms just come in and we're not e commerce source. We've experimented with having E commerce but generally with a larger ticket item, they're want to like fill you out. They usually call once or twice, email in like there's like three or four touch points before live streams. They're pretty solo by the end of that. So a big bulk of our sales come through it like the week after the contest closes.

Okay, and what, how big is your email list?

About 350,000.

Oh wow, that's a great list.

Yeah, a lot of that is chaff. There's some wheat in there. But a lot of people that want the free bunky are not necessarily gonna buy a bunk or they like feel safe enough to give us money over the Internet. And then we also have visit like we have a factory where we make them and so people come in and see we have a little village of bunkies there as well. And then we're. Yeah, so people will see them sometimes in person, but it's a good. Right, so there's a lot of. Yeah.

How often do you email everyone as opposed to just segments?

We try to segment as much as we can, but we've got a monthly newsletter that goes out once a month to everyone.

Okay. So if you're going to cross 10 million then you're selling like few hundred.

It's a good minority of people that have never actually like physically been there. And then we're working on a virtual.

These things a year.

No, like the goal this year is A thousand? Yeah. So like last year did 900 roughly tour. So we've got a virtual tour experience that you can kind of take a salesperson, guide you through a couple models and, and sell you that way.

That's awesome. And have you ever done like a group sales call or a webinar or anything?

Yeah.

Okay. Yeah.

The average is around 11.11k.

Okay. Yeah, I guess I went high there. Okay, so your original question, now that we've got all that out of the way, is at what point should you specialize your. Your sales process versus like abysmal show.

Up rates Right now? So I've been, I've been running them bi weekly and like, you know, 50 people sign up and one. One shows up. Yeah, we're trying to tweak that, but.

Maybe not specialize them at all. And just keep it broad. Right. Like account manager to marketer to salesperson.

Yeah, well, like so, right. So right now it's, it's just a duct taped hodgepodge of what's, what's organically growing up. Right. So we've got like people that have been with us since day one, a few people, and they're very much like, oh, I want the whole customer journey. I want to like, you know, take them to the factory, show them the bunky. I want to sell them. I want to help them with their delivery, like, talk to them. Like, they want to do all the steps of the way. I call it the Sherpa model. Like, we take them up all the way up the mountain. That's what they want to do. But the, the contest where we do the giveaway, I'm doing a series of live streams where, you know, we'll do one on the foundation, one on, you know, stains. And so there's like an educational dimension to that. And if they go through that 30 days in there tuned into those live streams, they're pretty solo by the end of that. So a big bulk of our sales come through it like the week after the contest closes.

Okay, and how big is your email list?

I've always been more inclined to like, I just want to sell them and then give them to someone else. And they get invoiced and they get. I want to make sure the delivery happens and that we have a pretty good track record of delivering on time and people being pumped. But I can see benefits to both angles. So it's like Sherpa all the way up the mountain with maybe a little bit of support here and there. About 350,000.

Oh, wow. That's A great.

Yeah, A lot of that is there versus, like, you know, one person just has appointments. One person just is chaff. There's some wheat in there. But a lot of the people that want the free bunk, you're not necessarily going to buy a bunky. Right. So there's a lot of. Yeah.

How often do you email everyone as opposed to just segments?

We try to segment as much as we can, but we've got a monthly newsletter that goes out once a month to everyone.

Okay. So if you're gonna cross 10 million, then you're selling like few hundred, you.

Know, does a middle call, one person closes. Like, that's the. The baton method. And it seems like a lot of people go in that direction. A lot more measurable and you can see who sucks a lot easier. But it's. It's. I don't know if we're at the right size to do something like that. And I don't. I'd like to figure out from someone who's kind of been there and cross that chasm from like things a year. No, like, the goal this year is a , you know, 5 million to 15 million or 20.

Million. So you're exclusively doing the Sherpa model right now.

Then?

Right. Well, so right now I'll tell you the sales process. So we do have outbound people to just call leads. So they're making 130 calls a day. Their whole goal is. Okay. Yeah. So like last year did 900.

Roughly. Okay.

Yeah. The average is around.

11.11K. Okay. Yeah, I guess I went high there. Okay, so your original question, now that we've got all that out of the way, is at what point should you specialize your. Your sales process versus set.

Appointments? But a lot of times people call in, so inbound leads. So you might talk to someone, they'll say, hey, let's go on a tour. Book a virtual tour. Book an actual tour. And they might take them to the point of close. So it's like a weird hybrid of both. So we have this appointment centers, two of those people, they're from the Philippines. Then we've got a couple people.

In, maybe not specialize them at all. And just keep it broad. Right? Like account manager to marketer in.

The factory, like showing people bunkies or doing it virtually. And then we've got another person remotely in Britain that can do the virtual tour, but not using like a Zillow kind of tour, able to do virtual.

Tour. So my thought to.

Salesperson. Yeah, well, like, so, right. My thought process is like the More we can make it digital and not everyone has to be at the factory. So right now it's. It's just a duct taped hodgepodge of what's. What's organically grown up. Right. So we've got like, people that have been with us since day one, a few people, and they're very much like, oh, I want the whole customer journey. I want to like, you know, take them to the fact better. So.

Yeah. Have you ever experimented with an appointment setter that was based here in North America as opposed to the.

Philippines? Not.

Yet. I would definitely try that. Just because it's such a high ticket item, such a big purchase. The amount of savings that you.

Get is probably actually show them the bunky. I want to sell them. I want to help them with their delivery. Like, talk to them. Like, they want to do all the steps. The way I call it the Sherpa model. Like, they take them up all the way up the mountain. That's what they want to do. I've always been more inclined to, like, I just want to sell them and then give them to someone else. And they get invoiced and they get. I want to make sure the delivery happens and that we have a pretty good track.

Record. Negligible. If you can get your appointment set rate up just a few percent.

Right. Yep. That's.

Fair. I would a b test it as well. Keep. Keep your Filipinos and. And add a couple and just side by side. How many calls are they each making versus how are they. How are they comparing? Because it's not even that they're.

Delivering on time and people being pumped. But I can see benefits to both angles. So it's like Sherpa all the way up the mountain with maybe a little bit of support here. And.

The. And I know Filipinos have great accents, but it's not even the accent. It's just the. The weird kind of cultural quirks that might only show up. One every three or four phone.

Calls there versus, like, you know, one person just has appointments. One person just that really make.

A big difference where someone in North America can just make offhand comments that are much more reliable, much more relatable to the person than someone overseas might.

You know, does a middle call, one person closes. Like, that's the. The baton method. And it seems like a lot of people go in that direction. It's a lot more measurable and you can see who sucks. Yeah. That's good advice. Thanks.

Huh. All right, so you're kind of doing a hybrid model. Do you Know of any competitors that are doing one or the other? Like, who are you looking to for an example on.

This? Like, the problem with our little niche is like a lot easier, but it's, it's. I don't know if we're at the right size to. I really, I struggle to find a super analogous competitor. Everybody in the do something like that, and I don't, I'd like to figure out from someone who's kind of been there and crossed that chasm from like, you know, 5 million to 15 million or 20.

Million. So you're like, it's the kind.

Of models, like a guy named Chuck with like a corner lot that sells sheds and there's hobos living in them. And like that's kind of the model for the shed biz. So it's not super analogous to what we're doing. And then there's other smaller competitors.

Doing the Sherpa model right now.

Then. Right, well, so right now I'll tell you the sales process. So we do have outbound so far in the small cabin space, the bunky business where people just call leads. So they're making 130 calls a day. Their whole goal is set appointments. But a lot of times people call in so inbound leads, I think quite like probably five or six times as large as anybody. It's hard to say. And then we email our competitors, like what happens after that. And there's no real. I don't feel like I'm in a process or any type of sales funnel. So we're kind of trying to lead the charge here. What I try to convert ourselves is like other high tech events like hot tubs, boat. You might talk to someone, they'll say, hey, let's go on a tour. Book a virtual tour or book an actual tour. And they might take them to the point of close. So it's like a weird hybrid of both. So we have this appointment centers, two of those people, they're from the Philippines. Then we've got a couple people in the factory, like showing people bunkies or doing it virtually. And then we've got another person like anything like that that I could say, oh, I can, I can learn from that, that vertical. But it's not necessarily us, right? Or I guess outdoor living. Like outdoor living is probably the most. Because they're selling high ticket stuff sometimes too.

So. And if you were to say, let's just pretend for a minute that your whole sales cycle, not just the sales cycle, but the whole life cycle.

Of a customer is 100 days remotely in Britain that can do the virtual tour, but not using like a Zillow kind of tour. Able to do virtual.

Tour. So my thoughts, at certain point they actually pay and then at a certain point their cabin is completed. Where would you put the payment in that hundred day.

Timeline? My thought process is like the more we can make it digital and not everyone has to be at the factory. So our model right now is we take 65% up front to make the bunky to help us cash flow it and then 35% a day or two before you get it better. So.

Yeah. Have you ever.

Experimented? So that's the. But it's not a hundred days. Like there's, there's like 700 day closes on a lot of our clients. Like right. So we're trying. The whole point of appointments and let's book a tour is like shrink that down. Ideally 100 would be. If I had 100 day closing, it would be a fantastic. Now sometimes it is two weeks but oftentimes it's like two weeks. But like I've been watching your YouTube channel.

For. With an appointment setter that was based here in North America as opposed to the.

Philippines. Not.

Yet. I would definitely try that just because it's such a high ticket item, such a big purchase. The amount of savings that you get is probably two.

Years.

So.

Yeah.

Right. What about between the time that you first speak to someone and you collect the 65%? What would you say? An average is.

There? An average is there? It just depends how hot they are. So if they're hot, it might be, you know, a day like.

Negligible. If you can get your appointment set rate up just a few percent.

You know, day to 10 days. We often give people 10 days to.

Pay.

Right? Yeah, that's.

Fair. I would ab. Test it as well. Keep, keep your Filipinos and, and add a couple and just side by side. How many calls are they each making versus how are they, how are they? Are they comparing? Because it's not even.

That. So you know, if they start chipping away at it, we'll call them in. So that's. Yeah, probably like one to 20.

Days. Okay. I feel like, I feel like you should test the Specialized model. I, I think that if you were the. And I know Filipinos have great accents, but it's not even the accent. It's just the, the wheel to just get a killer closer to, to get your kind of cultural quirks that might only show up one every three or four phone calls that really make a big difference. Where Someone in North America can just make offhand comments and they're someone really friendly and then just get someone really, really nice to see them through the end of it. Because they're not going to get their deposit back, I assume. Right. Like if they continue wanting to go through.

It. Yeah. It is a refundable deposit. But it's only when you. We sell your bunky to somebody else. So we don't take people's money for no.

Bunky. But they're much more reliable, much more relatable to the person than someone overseas.

Might. Yeah. That's good advice. Thanks. Uh.

Huh. Um, all right, so.

You'Re. We have a kind of. It's refundable as soon as someone else buys it, basically, which is usually pretty.

Fast. How many take you up on the.

Refund? Our refund rate's pretty low. It's like maybe one in 30. Okay. Like over the course of a season, you.

Know. Yeah, I feel like you should. Did you hear the last call that I'm kind of doing a hybrid model? Do you know of any competitors that are doing one or the other? Like who are you looking to for an example on.

This? Like the problem with our little niche is like I really, I struggle to find a super analogous competitor. Everybody in the like it's the kind of model is like a guy named Chuck with like a corner.

Lot. That's your.

Song. No. I was in the waiting room and he couldn't hear.

Anything. So I gave him the advice because that was another high ticket item to take a page out of the cringy course gurus playbook on Instagram. Let's try selling high ticket like $10,000 masterminds and courses and just analyze exactly how their funnel.

Is. Yeah. Those sheds and there's hobos living in them and like that's kind of the model for the shed biz. So it's not super analogous to what we're doing. And then there's other smaller competitors test. But we've so far in the, in the small cabin space, the bunky business.

We'Re. That's like finally or like highly refined over years and years of gurus selling on the Internet.

Right.

Yep. You've got a setter, you've got a closer and then you've got a third person that actually.

Fulfills. Yeah. I think quite, quite like probably five or six times as large as anybody. That is the model I'm leaning towards. Like that's what my intuition tells me to.

Do.

Yeah. Yeah. Hard to say. And. And then, you know, we Email our competitors. Like what happens after.

That. And there's nowhere that's, that's what I would do. Like in my crypto business we have something similar because we sell a five thousand dollar product and we, there's a lot of hand holding that needs to go into that product for years after they buy it because we also host the product. Right. And so in that sense it's easier for us to keep it.

Real. Like I don't feel like I'm in a process or any type of sales funnel. So we're kind of the same.

Person because there are going to be a lot of touch points along the way. It, it'd kind of be like if your customers were still interfacing with you for years after the house was built. Like they had to it because of the fact that they're good to go once the house is on built. I like the idea of specializing in your case or at least testing.

It. You don't lead the charge here. What I try to convert ourselves is like other high tech events like hot tubs, boats, like anything like that that I could say oh I can, I can learn from that, that vertical. But it's not necessarily us. Right. Or I guess outdoor living. Like outdoor living is probably the most. Because they're selling of.

Course. Go all in on it because you've got a good thing.

Going. Yeah, that's fair. I take it stuff sometimes too.

So. And if you were to say. Let's just pretend for a minute that your.

Whole. So your advice is essentially like lean like. Yeah. Get a few. Like why don't you have the appointments that are just set it up in that kind of handheld way. Yeah, that makes.

Sense. Yeah. Like just three setter, closer.

Fulfiller. Yeah, that's kind of.

Yeah. Sales cycle. Not just the sales cycle, but the whole life cycle of a customer is 100 days. At certain point they actually pay and then at a certain point their cabin is completed. Where would you put the payment? In that hundred day.

Timeline. That makes.

Sense. That's kind of what you're doing.

Today. Well, I mean fulfiller. Like by fulfiller it's like you know, someone invoices them and then another person makes sure that bunky physically gets to them and all that logistical.

Fun. Yeah. The logistics is what I mean by fulfiller.

Yeah. Yep. That's kind of. I, I mean kind of the model right now. But we can just lean heavier in it I think. So our model right now is we take 65% up front to make.

Them. Okay. Well I hope that.

Helps. Yeah, super does. Yeah. Appreciate your.

Time. Okay. Thanks.

David. Okay. My pleasure.

Bye.

Christian. Yes.

Sir. How are we doing.

Man? Really sorry about, you know, being.

Late. Oh, it's.

Fine. Monkey to help us cash flow it and then 35% a day or two before you get it. So that's the. But it's not 100 days. Like, there's. There's like 700 day closes on a lot of our clients. Like. Right. So we're trying. The whole point of appointments and let's book a tour is like, shrink that down. Ideally, 100 would be. If I had 100 day closing, it would be a.

Fantastic. I tried twice, though. I tried twice. I was, you know, giving you some chance. I figured you were pretty busy with the other, you know.

People. Yeah, we always go over. So it. It worked out just fine.

Awesome.

Awesome. So, all right, you've got kind of a unique problem. Let's hear about.

It. Yeah. Pretty.

Simple. Now, sometimes it is two weeks, but oftentimes it's like two weeks. But like, I've been watching your YouTube channel for two years.

So. Yeah, right. What about between the time that you first speak to someone and you collect the 65%, what would you say an average is.

There? Pretty simple. You know, I'm having 50k. Let's say, for example, somebody followed me, Right. And I'm having, like, people, I guess, important people following.

Me. Let's say 50k average is there. It just depends how hot they are. So if they're hot, it might be, you know, like.

Followers. 100k.

150K.

Okay. And I'm just wondering, like, some of them.

Want. They do 10 days. We often give people 10 days to pay that. So, you know, if they start chipping away at it, we'll call them in. So that's. Yeah, probably like one to 20.

Days.

Okay. I think, you know, pick my brain and I'm just wondering, should I charge them a consulting call? When should I do it? When should I not do it? Because when should I, you know, do you kind of get.

Like. I feel like you should test the specialized model. I. I think that if you.

Were. What I'm trying to.

Say. Yeah, let me. I mean, some context for people that are listening or that will be listening, that don't know. So you're talking about Twitter specifically, right? Like, yes, a Twitter account. Yep. That. That posts business stuff. We'll keep it kind of broad. Right. You post interesting business stuff, and then people reach out and they're like, hey, you seem smart to just get a Killer closer to get them there, someone really friendly and then just get someone really, really nice. I want to make money doing what you're doing. Can you help me? And so you're asking like, what do I do with that? Do I charge, sell my time? Do I sell a product? Do I sell a service? Is that.

Right? Absolutely, Yes. I bet you get tons of.

Those. Yes. Yeah. Where are you leaning today? What do you want to.

Do? Honestly, I'm. I just want to. If there's, If I can make money with the consulting calls, I will. But at the end of the day, I've helped a lot of people by not, you know, not charging them a lot, I mean, money. But some of them are sending to me 10, 15 questions in a DM. I'm like, dude, I'm not going to be able to answer all of this. So you're better off, you know, setting up a consulting call with me. But I also don't want to be rude. That's, that's my main question here. I don't want to be rude. Especially for those that might find, might find it as a rude answer.

If I say see them through the end of it because they're not going to get their deposit back, I assume. Right. Like if they continue wanting to go through.

It. Yeah, it is a refundable deposit, but it's only when you. We sell your bunky to somebody else. So we don't take people's money for no bunky, but we have a kind of. It's refundable as soon as someone else buys it, basically, which is usually pretty.

Fast. How many take you up on the.

Refund? Our refund rate's pretty low. It's like maybe one in 30. Okay. Over the course of a season, you.

Know? Yeah, I feel like you should. Did you hear the last call that.

I. That to then putting into perspective that they have a bunch of followers, you know, like, dude, you know, I don't want to come across like a, let's say like a bot, you know, butthead or something like.

That. Yeah. So I've dealt with the same problem. What's.

Your. Sean. No, I was in the waiting room and he couldn't hear anything, so.

I, I gave him the advice because that was. I think there's a bit to do it where you're not rude. I, I think that you should have like a copy paste kind of explainer that's like, listen, statistically speaking, if I said yes to the amount of people that DM me, I would have no time to run my actual business. So I just can't. And so I think at that point you need to put them through a filtering mechanism. I've tried several different things. I've charged their high ticket item to take a page out of the cringy course gurus playbook on Instagram. Let's try selling high ticket, like $10,000 masterminds and courses and just analyze exactly how their funnel is. And yes, that's like finally or like highly refined over years and years of gurus selling on the Internet.

Right?

Yep. You've got a setter. You've got for my time before. And it's actually shocking how few people are willing to pay for your time.

Right. Yes, I.

Agree. When I started, I charged like 200 bucks for an hour or a half an hour. And this is like this high ticket stuff. Like you could find out in an hour exactly how to buy a mobile home park. That makes you six or seven figures a closer. And then you've got a third person that actually fulfills. Yeah, I feel like that is.

The model I'm leaning towards. Like, that's what my intuition tells me to.

Do. Um, yeah, that's. That's what I would do. Like in my crypto business we have something similar because we, the people like the conversion rate on that that paid calendly is tiny, tiny, tiny. Sell a $5,000 product. And we. There's a lot of handhold. And so I eventually took it off because I'm like, I feel like this does more harm than good. Like, I'd almost rather not do any of this than make a few hundred dollars here and.

There'S. And then how did you.

Work. Go.

Ahead.

Sorry. Yeah, this is probably what you're about to say. And then I put it at like $1200 per hour just to kind of weed everyone out. And guess how many people paid for that? 0 holding that needs to go into that product for years after they buy it because we also host the product. Right. And so in that sense, it's easier for us to keep it the same person because there are going to be a lot of touch points along the way. It'd kind of be like if your customers were still interfacing with you for years after the house was built. Like they. Like not one person has ever paid that. Right. Which is honestly fine because I don't like hopping on these calls because it doesn't seem efficient. And I feel in debt. Like, I don't pay for consulting calls, so I feel indebted to them. And so I always Want to go over. I always want to deliver a ton of value and make sure they're super, super happy and it ends up being fine. But it's just that's it doesn't move the needle much to make.

It. Yeah. And it's not. Yeah, it's not scalable either. So I totally agree with.

You. So I think you should do one of two things. I think you should, you should create a course. And I say course but I mean it does to the fact that they're good to go once the house is built. I like the idea of specializing in your case or at least testing it. You know, I really just mean a PDF. Just take all your tweets that are relevant, upload it to ChatGPT or do it yourself or give it to your assistant and have them just put it in like a coherent, like an ebook. Right. Call it three to five thousand words. Probably doesn't take that long. Go to Gumroad, upload it to gumroad, make it 20 bucks or 50 bucks or something and just tell them, hey, hey, just have a copy paste. Like listen, if I were to say yes to everyone, I have no time. Like I really don't mean to be rude, I just don't have the time. And so I put this together because I already know what you're going to ask and this is going to answer 90% of your questions. Go ahead and buy this if you still have questions. I want to of course go all in on it because you've got a good thing.

Going. Yeah, that's fair. So your advice is essentially like lean, like. Yeah, get a few look why you have the appointments. I just set it up in that kind of handheld way. Yeah, that makes.

Sense. Yeah, like just three setter, closer.

Fulfiller. Yeah, that's kind of. Yeah, that makes.

Sense. That's kind of what you're doing.

Today. Well, I mean.

Fulfiller. Like at that point you can say I'll just hop on for free or I'll charge for my time after that point. But most people aren't even willing to pay 20 bucks. They, they just want something for free.

Right?

Yep. Even if they have a lot of.

Followers. I.

Agree.

Yeah. I think another thing you could do which has been my solution to this is you don't like you've got to get people into an email list or a free newsletter or something just so you can touch base with them. So when you do sell something more high ticket, maybe that's your fundraising, maybe you're selling an agency service that's Two grand a month. When you do sell that, you.

Don'T have to go black by fulfiller. It's like, you know, someone invoices them and then another person make sure the bunky physically gets to them and all that logistical.

Fun. Yeah, the logistics is what I mean by that filler.

Yeah. Yep. That's kind of. I. I mean, kind of the model right now, but we can just lean heavier in it, I.

Think. Yeah. Okay. Well, I hope that helps. I'd.

Love. Yeah, super does.

Yeah. Appreciate it out there to everyone. You can only tell the people that you feel are the most interested. That gave you time. Okay, thanks.

David. Okay, my pleasure.

Bye.

Christian. Yes.

Sir. How are we doing.

Man? Really sorry about, you know, being.

Late. Oh, it's.

Fine. I tried twice, though. I tried twice. I was, you know, giving you some chance. I figured.

You. Your email months or years.

Prior. Okay. So would you consider any different approach to, let's say, someone that.

Is.

Sorry. Someone that is, let's say, kind of famous or an influencer or something like that? Would you take any different.

Approach? I would, yeah. I mean, I would do it on a case by case.

Basis. We're pretty busy with the other, you know.

People. Yeah, we always go over. So it worked out just.

Fine. Awesome.

Awesome.

I. That's what I wanted to.

Confirm. Yeah, I make exceptions all the time for this. Like sometimes people reach out to me that I look up to and admire, and it's like, dude, I just want to talk to you. Like I want to ask you questions. And then it becomes more of a give and take instead of just a.

Take. You.

Know, I got disconnected for.

A. For a little.

Bit. I'm.

Back. Oh, yeah. I'm just saying, when it's certain people that I admire and look up to, then it becomes more of a give and take than anything. Okay, well.

Perfect. Hey, Chris, thank you very much. That's all I wanted to confirm. I had that.

Idea. So. All right. You've got kind of a unique problem. Let's hear about.

It. Yeah, pretty simple. Pretty simple. You know, I'm having 50k. Let's say, for example, somebody followed me, Right. And I'm having, like, people, I guess, important people following me. Let's say 50k. My mind already. I just wanted to pick your brain, you know, you're very wise to followers. 100k, 150k. And I'm just wondering, like, some of them want. Love it.

Man. Thanks, man. Well, absolutely. Thanks for calling. It was good chatting with.

You. All.

Right. I appreciate your time. Thank you. Chris, take.

Care. See.

Ya.

Bye. All right, well, let's see. I think that wraps it.

Up. You know, pick my brain. And I'm just wondering, should I charge them a consulting call? When should I do it? When should I not do it? Because when should I, you know, do you kind of get what I'm trying to.

Say? Yeah, let me. I mean, some context for people that are listening or that will be. We're done with callers. It's been over an hour. Thank you for watching or listening. If you're live streaming right now, and we will see you next week. Listening that don't know. So you're talking about Twitter specifically, right? Like, yeah, A Twitter account. Yep. That. That posts business stuff. We'll keep it kind of broad. Right. You post interesting business stuff, and then people reach out and they're like, hey, you seem smart. I want to make money doing what you're doing. Can you help me? And so you're asking, like, what do I do with that? Do I charge? Sell my time? Do I sell a product or I sell a service? Is that.

Right? Absolutely. Yes. I bet you get tons of.

Those. Yes. Yeah. Where are you leaning today? What do you want to.

Do? Honestly, I'm. I just want to. If there's. If I can make money with the consulting calls, I will. But at the end of the day, I've helped a lot of people by not, you know, not charging them a lot, I mean, money. But some of them are sending to me 10, 15 questions in a DM. I'm like, dude, I'm not gonna be able to answer all of this, so you're better off, you know, setting up a consulting call with me. But I also don't want to be rude. That's. That's my main question here. I don't want to be rude, especially for those that might find. Might find it as a rude answer if I say that to them, putting into perspective that they have a bunch of followers, you know, like, dude, you know, I don't want to come across like a. Let's say, like a bot, you know, butthead or something like.

That. Yeah. So I've dealt with the same problem. I think there's a bet to do it where you're not rude. I think that you should have, like, a copy paste kind of explainer that's like, listen, statistically speaking, if I said yes to the amount of people that DM me, I would have no time to run my actual business. So I just can't. And so I think at that point, you need to put them through a filtering mechanism. I've tried several different things. I've charged for my time before, and it's actually shocking how few people are willing to pay for your time.

Right. Yes, I.

Agree. When I started, I charged like 200 bucks for an hour or a half an hour. And this is like, this is high ticket stuff. Like, you could find out in an hour exactly how to buy a mobile home park. That makes you six or seven figures. But people like the conversion rate on that that paid calendly is tiny, tiny, tiny. And so I eventually took it off because I'm like, I feel like this does more harm than good. Like, I'd almost rather not do any of this.