Finding Great Reselling Deals Is Easy (If You Know Where to Look) w/ Shannon Jean⏐ Ep. #201
28 Jul 2025 · 28 min
Shannon Jean and Chris Koerner discuss where to find profitable reselling deals, covering seasonal arbitrage, liquidation auctions, and specific products like Christmas trees, Lego sets, and Blackstone grills. They share tactics for using manifests and AI tools to spot opportunities.
Seasonal arbitrage can make you rich. You can do these deals every single day with this method.
You could rent that out for a thousand bucks a month easy.
This is how you make $100,000, right? No doubt about it.
My mind is just spinning right now.
Rugs are amazing. They sell for nothing. These are selling for $8 each. Spend $8 and sell it for a hundred. At 120, we are surrounded by opportunity. The deals are not hard to find. Don't watch Netflix, watch auctions, because there it's more interesting. So let's talk about qvc and let's talk about why July is the best time to buy Christmas trees, right? And the second best time to buy Christmas trees is January, February, March. And that's where I have a student in our mastermind that he's bought so many Christmas trees that sold for like nothing from Costco and Target and everything else. He's going to open an artificial Christmas tree lot in his town. He's already got the spot.
Is that even a thing?
No, it's going to be this year. And so I'm like, you know, he's going to have this whole thing, the whole setup, and they'll be set up and you can come pick them up. And it's. It solves the open box, you know, conversation that sometimes you have to have. You promote it on Facebook, Marketplace. You have great social walking around you. You do. You have a fire going. You do marshmallow, the whole thing. And you sell other stuff, too. So what we're looking at here, this is qvc, just, you know, the home shopping TV place. They have tons of, you know, this. I don't normally look at their stuff, but I want to talk about seasonal selling. It's really powerful. And there's four pallets of Christmas trees by Ebenezer and Company. I didn't know. They're 158 units, new condition. Okay. Extended retail. Retail 11,710 bucks. It's not worth that. You know, it's probably worth five grand, six grand. Bids at $526. And there's only five bids because people just aren't interested in buying this stuff. Yeah, these are.
Which is.
These are small trees, 24 inch, 36 inch little tabletop trees. You know, they're selling for 65 and 89, but the same concept goes with the Costco tree. That sells for 1,500 bucks is what I'm telling you. And you want to buy them. Like, I don't know if you know this, Chris, but there's a large amount of people that buy a Christmas tree on December 26, they take it back to the store. And Costco being the great, wonderful returns, they just take it back. Yeah, take it back. All these stores taken back. They don't question you. They don't want any confrontation. So there's tens of thousands of these, you know, returns after the holidays. It same goes with Halloween. What do you think they do with their excess inventory after Halloween? They put it up here and they sell it. Same with every holiday. Same with 4th of July. Same with, I mean, over and over. You to seasonal arbitrage can make you rich. And the time to buy is right after or in the middle of July where you can pick these up. These are going to sell for less than five bucks apiece, right?
Yeah.
And you can just sell them like crazy once the season starts.
This is another good Facebook marketplace item. Yeah, dude, my mind is just spinning right now. First of all, with the, the Christmas tree lot idea, he, if I were him, I would just like make a call to a farm and also sell real trees. That way just you can get 100% of the market. And yeah, imagine your sign, it's like arrow fake, those ones. Arrow real, those ones.
Like, why would percentage of the profits to the, the owner of the. Of the farm. And so that way you get the people in that are just like, oh, I want to buy the, you know, big fake tree. Or I don't, you know. Yeah, yeah. There's so many possibilities, man. Because it's such a unique thing.
Normally it's like, all right, that's kind of two different businesses. He should focus. But it's like these Christmas tree farms know the assignment. They're just going to drop off trees like they do at their other retail customers. It's just going to sit there like the fake trees. You're going to swipe the same card. Like, you might as well capture 100% of the market. The other thought I had is, I love this one because there's no question marks for me. Like, as someone that's a total novice to this, with the Stanley's, it's like, oh, oh, there's Alpha here. I'm gonna make some money. And then you buy it and you go to sell it. And 100% of people are like, I don't want gray. Gray's ugly. Gray's ugly. Gray's ugly. And it's like, that's why I got these at a discount. Nobody wants them. But with, with anything seasonal, it's like, I don't need to worry if I'm making the worst mistake of my life. It's July. They oversold or they overbought and they didn't sell them.
Yeah, you're gonna spend less than a thousand bucks for four pallets. On and on. I mean, there's the reasons just keep stacking up, right?
And, dude, I want to buy these. I have my kids sell them.
Yeah, exactly.
Every. Every morning I wake up and I come in here, and I pull a piece of printer paper out, and I get a pen, and I write my kids. Chores for the day.
Yeah.
And usually half of those chores are today. It was sell the Oculus Rift 2. Sell my Oura ring. Sell this. And that's like, it's. I put that right next to vacuum your room. And it's not because, like, I'm really trying to encourage entrepreneurship, like, I am. But we just need stuff sold, and I don't want to do it right. And they get. They get to keep 40% chance.
That's huge. Like, that's huge.
I'm pretty generous. Okay. But with this, we can make it more of a business.
Of course. And, you know, youth is a huge unfair advantage. People love to buy from young people and to help them out. And if you're walking around selling two and three foot Christmas trees at. Sell them at 20 bucks, right?
Yeah.
How many moms would buy a 20? I mean, I don't know. Go to TJ Maxx or wherever you have around here. This stuff sells like crazy. So anyway, I love seasonal deals.
Another idea I had. You go to the liquidation site. You see everything listed out in a list format, and let's say it says Advanced Auto, it says Costco, it says whatever. Screenshot all of those company names, drag it over to ChatGPT and say, I want you to find any news from the last six to 12 months of any of these companies either buying or selling another company.
Yeah, well, like, Dick's. Dick's Sporting. Good. They just bought Foot Locker. And so immediately, no one would know that. Yeah, I get.
Unless you went and looked for it.
Yeah, I get the mastermind. And I'm like, okay, sneakerheads, get ready. You know, they're coming. And sure enough, here come the footlocker auctions, and they did a test run, and they sold, you know, I don't know, a few thousand pairs of shoes. And now they're gonna. It worked out good for them, and now they're gonna be selling them the whole time. It's crazy. Let's talk about Legos. Legos are nuts, dude. And Star wars is crazy too.
It's a good investment too.
Yeah, this is what, this is, an investment. So this is a little different product because these are, you know, investment grade type things. And one palette of Lego Star Wars Grogu Baby Yoda with hover pram set. New condition 140 sets retail $11,199. Okay, I don't know whether that's true or not. The one thing I do love about Costco, they don't discount typically. They're already a discount place, so you can trust that number a lot more. Costco's typically still selling it. Now, the bid is high here because they're very popular and people know this market. So the bid sitting at 6,225 bucks, so. So it's not like a grand slam right now. However.
Well, Lego's sexy, right?
Lego's sexy. So you really have to know this market. I would not advise anyone to buy this that doesn't know the market. I'm gonna click on some of these bigger pictures here. They show the inside, little extra stuff. Here's the rat, here's the whole thing. You're gonna get the whole display and everything that Costco had in their store. It's Lego big thing. That's probably worth money too. Here's the box just showing you that kind of stuff.
Dude, now, you know what idea just came to mind. Sorry.
Yes. No, go ahead.
Like if you were to specialize in buying stuff like this, this would sell so well on like Instagram with short form video. Watch me unbox this Lego palette. Yes, watch like people absolutely that up. And then you could, you could sell it to the people watching.
Yeah, of course. Live selling, man. It's amazing. Yeah, eBay has it now too. So. No, don't apologize. I love talk. Ebay has a live selling. Poshmark has it everybody, it's. It's what? Not what. Not the whole nine yards. So you would want to do some research because most of these Lego buyers, they buy and they hold, right? Because they want to see the value, the scarcity impacts the value. They want to wait until the holidays where the kid says, dad, I want the Star Wars Grogu Baby Yoda with hover pram. I gotta have it. And nobody has it. They're all sold out in the store. So they're not 80 bucks, they're 199 on eBay. You know, that kind of thing. Now I don't know if this, Lego in particular has that type of arc. But you could easily find out and go look and study. And there are people on X that just focus on Lego and they're happy to connect with you. I posted stuff on X. If you're on X. It's just my name, Shannon Jean, and I post this stuff on X. And all the LEGO people come in and they'll say, well, here's why the LEGO flowers aren't so great, or here's why this, or, yeah, that's a good one. And then you. Then there's a couple of guys that are, you know, very well known in this market. And they do, they do great. They'll give you their advice. You can get lots of tips.
What do you think this thing sells for? This Grego Baby Yoda?
Bet you it sells for. It's 2 hours and 38 minutes left. If I was buying with math, I would have put my max in. I wouldn't even look at it anymore. But there are people that will not do that. They'll bid at the end. And this is popcorn bidding, which I mean by that is they'll extend it by two minutes if somebody bids in the last minute. So, so there's no sniping here. And like on ebay, you can use a sniper and you can buy at the last 10 seconds and win stuff. And that's really, truly the best way to get good deals. But here, you can't do that. You're smart. I think it sells for eight grand.
Eight grand. So that would be how many per unit?
It's at 6. It'd be 50 bucks. Oh, 57. Okay, that's right. That makes sense.
$57.
Yeah. Is that a good deal? I don't know. But you, you can find it out. All the resources that we're just talking about here, you can find this out. Reach out to people that know the market, you know, share the deal. Say, look, I want to buy 140. Help me figure this out. I'll, we'll split it. I'll give you, you know, I'll give you half or I'll give you 40 units or whatever. So I like these deals. I think they're fascinating. Yeah, let's talk about Blackstones.
Oh, dude, I just bought a Blackstone. I got it for Father's Day.
Awesome. That's great. You could have bought, you could have bought three pallets here for $625.
Okay, well, I got one for 450.
That's a good deal. That's a good deal. So these are the big guys, the thousand dollar 36 inch with the air fryer built in and a hood.
Oh, wow. Okay.
Yeah. Look at, there's three.
Very envious at this.
See this Air Fryer 1, Air Fryer 2, Air Fryer 3. This is the big.
I need to go have words with my wife because mine doesn't have any of this.
Yeah. What kind of father.
I know.
And so you look at these. These are the actual pictures. They're on these pallets. They're, you know, some of them are boxes. Yes. Well packaged, but not. Some are in boxes, some are not. So these are store returns. Okay. Whole different animal. Here's one brand, you know, looks like brand new in the box. Could be brand new, could not. You never know. Somebody could have taken it apart, never used it.
That's the risk.
That's the risk. But they're AB grade, which means they look okay. But I have bought lots of Blackstone griddles. Every one of my buddies has one that has come through me. Sometimes they show up and they're beautiful and you just roll it and you're like, oh, home run. Other times they're covered in grease and oil and you have to clean them. This is. Yeah, I don't know how to, you know, this business. You get your hands.
Bought a bunch, didn't he? Yeah. In the group. How has he done so far? Do you know, have any follow up to that?
I'm sure he's done really well. I don't have the specifics in my brain, but these things are like Facebook, marketplace, the word Blackstone, people go crazy. And, you know, you could have some video, you could have yourself cooking something on your Blackstone, that kind of stuff. So now this is in Tumwater, Washington, so you want to be as close as possible because the shipping, the freight, they're going to three, three pallets. But Blackstones are gold, man. And I don't know that you can make money buying brand new units, but you can certainly make money buying AB units. You just explain it, you just tell it came from Costco and so you just be real upfront with it. Say, yeah, I buy Costco excess stuff. And if you sell it as used, but you're going to get this landed to your door, less than 1,000 bucks, you're going to sell it for 4,000, you're going to make $3,000 in the weekend. No doubt about it.
Oh, my gosh.
Right. I talked to a guy selling ice makers the other day, buying Costco ice makers. And he's like, you know, I usually get the pallet on pal or two on Thursday. I get them listed by Friday and by Sunday I have my investment back. And he made he. In a week he made nineteen hundred dollars selling to, selling these and this guy, you know, selling them at night. Just people come in after work and pick them up. Rugs are amazing. Awesome market on Facebook Marketplace. They sell for nothing. Here's 3, 800 worth of rugs selling for 250. We'll give you a quick rundown before.
Have you, have you sold rugs before? That one intimidate me a bit just because who knows what a good design is, right?
Yeah, but they want, people want to buy inexpensive big rugs, eight by tens. They don't want to spend 330 bucks, but they'll spend floor covering. Yeah, these are selling for $8 each, actually $7.58. So I'm not trying to tell you to spend 100 and sell it for 30 or 300. I'm saying spend $8 and sell it for a hundred. Yeah, 120. And all these big, big, big, bigger. The better bigger, the bigger. And if you get dirty ones, take videos of them cleaning because people love that stuff. We could talk about pressure washers. A whole nother. Amazing. I'll come back and we'll talk about pressure washers.
But yes, yes, I want to talk about that. I think it's important to note that with the quantity of items you buy, your risk goes down significantly.
Yes, it does.
Like with the Blackstone, there was nine of them.
Like.
Yes, you're going to be able to sell nine Blackstones. These rugs, there's what, 10, 33. You're able to sell 10 rugs. Okay, 33.
33.
I guess you hadn't scrolled these big.
Ones, there's at least, you know, 10 or so that are seven. Here's a 10 by 10 Nautica rug. You know, brand ruggable. You know, ruggables are the ones you can throw in the washer. Those are highly.
That's a good brand.
Good.
It's like the yeti of rugs.
That's right, the yeti of rugs. I love it. I love it.
With things like the auto parts, you, you can guarantee that they're going to end up throwing away hundreds or thousands of those things. They just will not move. Right.
Yes. You're going to wind up donating them or taking them to the recycler or something. Yeah, the same with you. In this business, you will always have stuff you will donate and you want to be get, you know, find the people in your community that can use the stuff and do it. So I could talk about this stuff all day. There's a ton of stuff. There's this 32 by 12 building that sold last night for $6,000 that I.
That I'm shopping for one of those right now.
Dude, right here in San Francisco. Dual container modular office, conference room, $2,500. Two shipping containers. Ch this out.
I want those. I'll buy those.
You should go. You should. Well, you got to ship them. They're in San Francisco.
I don't care.
Look at this. Look inside. See, look at the. This all comes inside this desk.
Rent that out as a wee.
I know, of course. And it's going to close in 17 hours. And it's at 2500 bucks. Right? This, this stuff is every single day, I'm telling you. Right.
Will you send me a link to that?
I will.
I want to buy that.
Yeah, I just turned my buddy on who's a house flipper up in. Oh, this is that. Where did that go? Oh, yeah, right here. Dartmouth College in New Hampshire, right? Yep. They just pulled out 2,200 square feet of European oak veneer flooring. It's going to end in one day. It's at 360 bucks. Phenomenal condition. They have before and after they removed it and stacked it for you. And I have a buddy that's flipping a 1400 square foot home that needs all new flooring. I said you should go buy this. It's two hours from him. So auctions are not just for flipping. It's for upgrading your life. If you're a remodeler, it's for saving money. If you're a house flipper, it's for getting deals so your investment's less if you have a piece of property and you want to put ADU on it or a 32 by 12, you know, incredible. Basically, brand new building.
I can't believe it sold for six.
It sells for this every single day. Chris. Everybody talking today.
Why are we talking? And I'm not buying all these? You could rent that out for a thousand bucks a month easy. It's six grand.
Yeah, you got to get it near you. This one's in Lincoln, Nebraska University, Nebraska.
I don't give a crap. I'll drive to Nebraska. That's a five hour drive.
You got it. You got it. So here, here's the deal. One of the things you do is you want to watch the news and you want to learn about companies that are buying other companies. Because when that happens. There's usually a large liquidation of products because they're consolidating. Maybe they're shutting down warehouses. In this case, we're looking at an auction from advance auto parts that got bought by Pep Boys, if you know them. They're big, you know, auto parts place. And so they closed a bunch of locations because then they merged them in with Pep Boys locations, and they've been liquidating auto part, auto repair parts and auto repair gear, equipment, tools for like, the last, I'd say, eight months. And what we're looking up here, it says truckload of ignition, emission components, brake drums, rotors, and more 3911 pieces. Like, new condition. Now, like, new means it's. It's new. But the boxes may be a little beat up because it got moved around from warehouse to warehouse. They're not store returns, all that kind of stuff. Extended retail, $126,422. We know that's a lie. So let's just say it's worth 70, you know, or $60,000.
Okay, what do they. What do they mean, extended retail?
Oh, so unit retail is individual piece. So extended is just unit retail times the quantity.
Okay.
Okay. So. Right. That's all. So they're full retail of this manifest. If you go to the bottom, they have it at 126, 422. Okay.
And pretty much on all of these sites, you can look at the manifest before bidding. Before buying.
Yeah. Don't buy without a manifest. That is rule number. Well, rule number one is don't buy unless you know what you can sell it for. Rule number two is never buy a deal unless you're very sophisticated buyer without a manifest because you'll have no recourse.
Why would you even bid on an item before looking at the manifest if it's there for you?
There are people that buy. Like I tell you, bin store owners don't care as much about manifest because they're buying by the piece at a dollar. Whatever it is, the dollar amount, my.
Friend that sells shirts, they don't care.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. But for the typical seller, don't do it. You'll get burned. So this is looking at this right now. The bid's at $4,000. Okay? It's gonna close tomorrow. One day and two hours. I guarantee you. This does not close. This bid closes for maybe $7,000. Six. $7,000.
Okay.
Okay. And if you go and look at this, if you sort by the products and you sort by the retail, you can just See the numbers, you know, 11 $38, 950, 730, 708, 532. On and on and on and on. There's line item after line item that are 200 to 300, $1,000 right now. I don't know anything about this product and I would not buy, I would not buy this because I don't know anything about car parts. If I was in that car parts industry business and I could do. And I knew that a speed calibrator, you know, really was worth a couple hundred bucks or a quick assembly, well, that would be one thing, but I don't. I would rather go buy the. That furniture. Right. Because it's more broad. But these auctions at Advanced Auto have been incredible. And auto parts guys that I've been sharing them with have just, they've just been going nuts and scooping this stuff up for next to nothing.
Dude, I'm picturing, I see all these lists. Like if you scroll down to the SKUs and the item numbers, to me, it's as if I'm panning for gold. And I pull my pan out of the river and I see some shiny rocks, I see some fool's gold, I see some rubies, I see a lot of gray, a lot of crap. Like what? Where my mind goes here is to screenshot this stuff or to export the manifest, upload it to Manus, which you.
Can download right here. Just. Yeah.
Which Manus is like a more agent friendly version of chat GPT or just chatGPT or perplexity or whatever.
Yeah.
And say find the gold.
Yep, exactly.
Find the fool's gold and find the gold. And what I want you to do and then give it more sources. Like, and I would do this, I would go manually find some gold like the leaf spring or the clutch pack. You know, go try to find something that appears to have more demand than supply and say, all right, I want you to go look everywhere you can. Ebay, Facebook, marketplace, everywhere, message boards, subreddits, forums, what are the parts that are, that have more demand than supply? For example, here's three. And here's why I know this. And here's where I found that info. Like always give it source data and then just wait 10, 15 minutes and don't just trust what it tells you, but go and look at the list of what it tells you and go cross reference it. And then you could like, then you have asymmetric information because how many people that are bidding or looking at this are doing that.
Shannon, what I just described not enough. What I recommend they do as well. If they're not comfortable digging into AI or they don't know that there's resources as well is I'd like get the manifest and go start talking to people in the industry that you're interested in selling and don't sell. Just say, look, I've got this opportunity. Here's this list of new, brand new product that someone you know advanced. You can tell them you say advanced auto as it wants me to buy this. Because that's true. They want you to buy it and say is this something that you're interested in? And you know they'll look at the list and say, oh, it's not worth 126. Okay, great. What is it worth? Maybe they come back to you and say, you know what, this list is only worth $25,000. And you say would you buy this list if I got it to you and I could sell it to you for $25,000 and then you go back and you know you have the answer. I don't want to sell one things one at a time, but I would love to buy this deal for 6 or $7,000 and sell it for 25 and let it go away. I would have the truckload brought to my freight forwarder. I'd have the freight forwarder strip every identifying thing out of it, of where it came from and I would deliver it right to the buyer, get their wire transfer and I'd be done. Oh man, you do this over and over and over. This is what you do. This is your business. You don't stop with this. You know you can do these deals every single day with this method. Every single day.
I was like googling gas leak detector kit, Dewalt angle grinder.
I just, I'm the same way. We are surrounded by opportunity. I'm telling you right now, this fund's really interesting. It's a little bit more of a chunk of cash, but it's check these out. So this is a site I love gov deals. You may have talked about it before. I didn't even know that Google Glass was still a viable thing to use. Okay. So I did, I did a little research. These typically sell between 150 and $300. If you sell on ebay and they sell every day, there's some decent velocity. Now this is 1000 pairs, a brand new Google Glass XCC Explorer Edition. I have no idea what you could do with them. Some of my followers came back with some different ideas. I guess they still work, but Google doesn't update the software anymore, that kind of thing. These are brand new in the box. These came from a city in the Bay Area. I don't know what they were doing with them, but right now they're selling at $45 each, brand new.
You have to buy a thousand.
You have to buy a thousand. There's. There are a couple of lots up here that have less quantity, but I think there's a box of them, and they're selling for maybe 75 bucks, 85 bucks. This is how you make $100,000, right? Yeah, no doubt about it. This is. And you wouldn't need to sell very many to get your investment back. They're brand new in the box. They have this stuff. They show the boxes, they show this. They show everything. Here's all the containers. And this stuff is every single day. The deals are not hard to find. You just have to, you know, I always tell people, don't. Don't watch Netflix, you know, watch auctions, because it's more interesting. So, yeah, I love this deal. It's fascinating.
All right, well, I couldn't help. I had to open up ebay. I clicked Sold items. I clicked new Google Glass XE C Explorer Edition 15255. 255155.
I think there's a 351 in there. And I'm sure there's some nuance. And this is not the deal you start with if you're getting involved in reselling. I want to make that clear. But it's a deal that, as a reseller, if you had. I always ask people what your unfair advantage is. And some people, their unfair advantage is, well, I have access to capital, I have money. You know, what do I do? How do I deploy it?
It's like, well, that could be a disadvantage if you make stupid decisions.
Yeah. Yeah, that's it. So, you know, if you studied this, and I don't necessarily recommend buying consumer electronics because I think the margins are no good anymore.
Right.
We would both know. Yes. You know, we squeezed those margins down to. To nothing. It's a fascinating product, and it's something that it's interesting to look at. I love it.
Okay. This is awesome. You know what I could see someone doing with those Google glasses is selling 90, 95% of them and storing the rest, because those will for sure be collector's items.
I agree. Yeah. I have this cash back mentality where I just. I'm always like, okay, how do you sell enough quickly to get your money back? So I wouldn't even Try to sell them for the first batch at 150. I would just be like, how many do I have to sell to get my $45,000 back? Yeah, can I sell?
Yep.
You know, 500 of them. Okay. If that's the case, I'd sell them. I'd move them all out wholesale, get my cash back, and then I'd have 500. And I'd say, well, I'm going to put them up at 199 and just sit on them, you know, or whatever, and do that. So I like to get my investment back.
So that one has 17 watchers. Does it have any bids yet?
This one is. It's kind of interesting. Sometimes they'll tell you some of them show bids and some of them don't. I don't think have any bids. And I will tell you why. Because it was at 50,000 a few days ago when they lowered the first bid to 45,000. I don't think it has any bids.
Okay, well, tell me what happens if nobody bids on it. Nobody wants it at that price. Will they try again at a lower?
They'll try. Typically they're going to try again a lower. They may break these up. Right. Because it's a pretty ballsy move to throw a thousand units up there. If I was advising this, it's a municipality, right. That nobody cares. It's not their money. But if it was a private business, the first thing I would tell them is, oh, let's sell them in lots of 100. You know, let's. There's no. Because at 100, you probably get $100. Right. And maybe you sell, you know, 10,000 at a time. That's 10 grand is easier for people to come up with. I'll wrap it up. Come visit our reseller, Mastermind. It's Shannon Jean.com mastermind a bunch of Chris's guys are in there. We talk about these deals every day. It's totally fun. There's all kinds of stuff going on. And I'll come back because I have a lot of other stuff that we can talk about this. And I mean, it's crazy.
If you're watching or listening, please comment on Spotify, on YouTube. Should we do this segment again? Shannon's for sure coming back. Should we do this type of show again? I really want to know because I.
Would love it if you like us to go through these auctions. I can show you. And, you know, some of them are closed, but most of them are all open, you know, like, some of them closed last night. But most of them are, like, ready to go like this. I'm going to text you, Chris, right now this link to the. Those storage containers. There you go.
I will buy that so hard.
Yeah, dude, it's incredible. If you're thinking of building something or doing, just stop and go search online and find it for sale at an auction.
All right. What'd you think? Please share it with a friend and we'll see you next time on the Kerner Office.
