How to Turn Your FEAR Into FUEL and Start a Business. Ep. #100

Welcome to the Kerner office. We're going to do a little throwback today for any of those that have been with me since the very beginning. This show started as a question answer show, a call in show, a Dave Ramsey for entrepreneur show. And it was fun and I liked it. But it was also exhausting and it was tough logistically speaking, because these callers would call in and I usually wouldn't know what they were going to ask about. The hard part was I didn't know when to cut them off and they didn't know when to stop asking questions. And it was good because I had a lot of follow up, but it was not good because sometimes their question would go on and on and on. So inspired by one of my favorite comedians, Theo Vaughn, he has a call in show but they're pre recorded questions and it works out really great. And so I tried that. I put a little voice recorder on one of my landing pages, tkopod.com and anyone in the world can go there and record anonymously a voicemail to leave me, which I will play on my podcast and then answer on my podcast. And it's great because the audience still gets to hear your voice. They still get to see and hear that it's authentic, it's from a real person. But once I hit stop, you're done talking and I can just answer. So I threw it up. On my website, I've had about 10 people submit questions. Most of them are really good. I'm going to read a handful of them here. I don't know how long this will go, but I plan to move from one to the next really quickly. So your TikTok brain can stay engaged the whole time and my TikTok brain can too. So let's get going. Let's play the first one.

Hey there. This is Brandon from Ontario, Canada. Love the podcast. I had a question. I've always been interested in a furniture flipping business idea. It's. I guess it's market spilling specific. But my question to you is how would I scale a business like furniture flipping from scratch?

Okay. Brandon from Ontario is asking how could he scale a furniture flipping business? What a great question. What a great business. So I have some thoughts. Before you can even ask about scaling, you've got to find out where the demand is. Let's just assume from the get go that there's enough demand in buying refurnished, restored furniture to support a family and to be scalable. We're going to lead with that assumption because we're all toxic optimists. Here. Now, the question to ask yourself is what to flip, right? If I live in Plano, Texas, and I want to flip houses, I know that the demand in Plano, Texas is for a four bedroom, three bath. And so I'm only going to look to buy houses that are four bed, three baths because I know that's where the demand is and my life's going to be a lot easier. So you need to go on these marketplaces, like OfferUp, the Facebook marketplace, ebay, Craigslist, wherever it is, and find the type of furniture that is selling and the price points they're selling for and how fast they're selling, what they look like, what are the colors. You got to put all this stuff in a spreadsheet. So if I were you, I would do what I love doing, and that's spying. I am so nosy. I love spying on people, competitors, my mom, my kids. Nothing's safe around me. So every single morning I would wake up and open Facebook Marketplace. Most people would grab a cup of coffee. Coffee. But I don't drink coffee. So I'd grab a diet Dr. Pepper. Much like this. Not sponsored. Wish it was. And I'd start searching up furniture. Now I'm going to weed out 80, 90% of listings because they're going to be, you know, the crappy furniture from Ikea that you can't really flip. There's no good bones to it. I'm going to look for that heavy, ugly, dented. Now I feel like the ovon that, that rusty furniture, that worn down furniture that. That furniture that your grandma got in the Great Depression. All right, I'll stop. But seriously, I want to find two types of furniture. Furniture that hasn't been flipped yet and furniture that clearly has been flipped. And you're going to know. You're going to know because it's going to look really good. It's going to appear to be priced too expensively on the surface, which it's not. It just means the seller knows what it's worth and they know what they can charge for it because they've been doing this for a while. And it's going to look perfect. It's going to look brand new, but it's not going to look like something that just came from the store. I would track all that stuff and then I would start messaging them. Oh, my gosh, I love your dresser. Did you refinish this? Did you furnish this? Did you flip this and just start asking them questions? How long did it take? Wow. Okay. How much does it weigh? What are the dimensions? And then check in. You want to see how quickly it sells. And within one to three weeks, you're going to have a pretty good idea in your local market, in this case Ontario. What's selling? Is it chairs? Is it tables, beds, couches, dressers? Not just what's listed, but what's selling. It's kind of like the old ebay trick. You go to ebay, you want to see what the demand is for something. You don't click on completed items, you click on sold items. Because a ton of listings is no indication of supplier demand. It's just what people happen to be listing. Like pianos. Everyone has a piano they want to get rid of. No one wants to buy them. So if you were to go look at completed items and see pianos, then you say, wow, I got to go start selling pianos. No, no one's buying these things. You got to go look at sold items. Facebook Marketplace doesn't make this easy. You can't look at completed or sold items on Facebook Marketplace. So you have to follow along the process as they're listed. And you got to filter for items that have been listed in the last 1, 7, 14, 30 days, etc. Take note of all these and take note of when they sell. Then you're going to know with reasonable accuracy what's really hot in your market. Okay, now once you learn that, let's say there's three hot categories in your market, bed frames, dressers, and tables, then that's how you scale. You've just answered the question. You can't answer the how to scale question before you answer the where is the demand question. Now that you have the demand, you can assume reasonably that cities like and or near Ontario have a similar demand profile. So you're never going to buy a chair, only looking for tables, bed frames and dressers. Another way you can scale is by standardizing your processes. Maybe you see that every dresser that's navy blue is moving like hotcakes. Something about navy blue, I don't know. We go in and out of these color phases as consumers. So in that case, you scale by buying a bunch of navy blue paint and standardizing your processes. It's the same way In n out scales by only selling a few different things. Can you scale as the Cheesecake Factory? Absolutely, but it's a lot harder. I don't want that life. So in summary, you scale a furniture flipping business by reverse engineering your competitors, doing a ton of market research, testing everything, posting your own stuff. Right. If you're in Ontario, then Go to Vancouver on the other side of the country. Look at their Facebook marketplace, Find beautiful looking furniture that's being sold over there, copy their pictures, list it in your local market just to get a feel for where the demand is. You're not actually going to sell them, you're just looking for where the demand is. That's another way you can do it as opposed to peppering your competitor with questions. Thank you, Brandon. Let's go to the next question.

Hello, Pat Casio here wanted to just touch on the fears that you see when working with new entrepreneurs that hold them back from taking that first step from concept to business plan to begin to execute. And I also think it'd be appropriate to talk about where we'd like to start and oftentimes the places entrepreneurs have to start at and do we really need the capital we think we need? Are we waiting for things to be perfect?

Pat, what a great question. Three part question. Let me summarize real quick. What fears do I see when working with new entrepreneurs that hold them back from taking the first step? Number two, how do we balance where we have to start and where we want to start? Or another way of asking that you chase the money, do you chase your passion? Both? When do you do one or the other? And the third part of his question was, do we really need the capital that we think we need? Are we waiting for things to be perfect? Let's address all three of these one at a time. The number one fear that I see with entrepreneurs that prevents them from taking the first step is insecurity. It all comes down to insecurity. And that's okay. I'm insecure, you're insecure, we're all insecure. But that insecurity should be a propellant and not a retardant. It should accelerate our growth and it should not slow it down. People say they're afraid of failure, but really they're afraid of what people say about them behind their back. And I am too to this day. I'm 37 years old. It's the reason I never did short form video until about six months ago because I always said, ah, it's so cringe. Ugh. What will my friends and family think if they see me on TikTok? And then I just said, screw it, who cares? If I don't like it, then I shouldn't do it. If I like it and it gives me energy and it provides value to the world and the world enjoys it, then I should do it. There's a whole world on the Other side of cringe. There's a whole world on the other side of starting a new business of going outside your comfort zone. This is the most cliche, the most kind of basic quote out there, but I still love it. There's no growth in the comfort zone and there's no comfort in the growth zone. That's why we do hard things. But fear is okay. We were given the ability to fear things for a reason. So it would be over simplistic to say don't have fear, just don't be afraid. That's impossible. Right? But we need to look to the base of these fears. Do we think it's genuinely realistic that if we start this business we will not be able to provide for our family? If so, then don't do it. Then you're doing something wrong. It's the wrong business, it's the wrong industry, it's the wrong go to market strategy. But if the genuine underlying first principle fear that we have is what people will think about us or what they will say about us, then that's a dumb reason. People don't think about you, just like you don't think about other people outside of your immediate family and kids. And they've got their own stuff going on. And if they do think about you, they're going to forget a day later. There's too much going on in our lives for that to be a driving factor in why we do things or why we don't do things. So take your fears, write them down and really get to the heart of what those are. It's kind of like addiction. There are loved ones in my life that have struggled with addiction and something like alcohol. Addiction is not an addiction to alcohol. Alcohol is just the scapegoat that people go to because they're feeling depressed or unworthy or unloved. Alcohol is not the root problem. It's what people reach to to be the solution and replace alcohol with anything that people could get addicted to. Diet Dr. Pepper, for instance. So when a counselor is working with an addict, they don't talk about how to quit alcohol. They talk about what are those triggers that cause you to want to drink alcohol. If you can fix the triggers or manage them or avoid them or work around them, then avoiding the alcohol becomes so much easier. But if you just say, oh, I'm not going to do that anymore, I'm just not going to do that thing anymore, you're going to fail. The same principle is true with getting to the real underlying cause of your fears, not what's Floating on the surface, not the thing that you tell your friends at dinner. What are you actually truly afraid of? And then go from there. Second part of the question. How do you manage where you have to start a business and where you want to start? Let's say I want to start a jerky business, a beef jerky business. And this is relevant because I've been cooking beef jerky all day. I had an idea yesterday. Why is there no beef jerky? That's basically authentic Texas barbecue in jerky form. More specifically, authentic Texas brisket smoked with post oak logs on an offset grill with only salt and pepper. Why is there no form of that in jerky? I had that question yesterday. So I had my wife go to Costco. To be fair, she was already going to Costco. I had her pick up some meat from Costco. And today I smoked slices of brisket that I rubbed with salt and pepper because I had to answer that question. So this example is very, very relevant for me. So let's say my dream, my goal is to start a business, a jerky business. That's what I want to do. That's my passion, or at least I think it is. But that might not pay the bills. Maybe I need to start a tree trimming business and go climb some trees and go door to door and learn how to use a chainsaw and do all those really sucky things that go along with running a sweaty startup. Maybe I have to do that first. So there's two camps out there in the world. The follow your passion camp and the follow your passion. A stupid camp. But guess what? The truth exists in the middle. It's not one or the other my take. Be willing to eat crap for a while while you follow your not passion. So you can follow your passion eventually. But if I had to choose one of two camps, I'm in the follow your passion camp because it's the only thing that's sustainable. What's the point of having a whole ton of money if you're not enjoying what you do or you don't enjoy what you do to get that whole ton of money? So yes, follow your passion, but be patient until that passion arrives. Be willing to climb some trees and to cut down some trees and to throw logs in the back of a truck to save up enough money to buy your offset smoker so you can start selling beef jerky. But gun to your head, if you have to start a business, that's your passion first, that's okay. Just don't quit your job. Work on your Passion in the nights and weekends. Third part of the question, do we really need the capital that we think we need, or are we waiting for things to be perfect? No, there's a paradox at play here. I just thought of this as I was looking at this question. Two things are true at the same time that seem like opposites. Number one, everything always takes longer than you think. It will take your startup to get to profitability, your house to be built, the tile in your bathroom to be laid, the brisket that you're smoking. I swear, I don't know what it is about the universe, but everything always takes longer. The lawsuit, the business deal, the real estate closing. I don't know what it is. I don't know why. Okay, that's true in my experience. What's also true is that anything, everything can always be done in a smaller amount of time. Patrick Collison is one of the Collison brothers, one of the founders of Stripe $100 billion company. He has a blog article on his website, Patrick collison.com fast. That is the URL. I want you to read that. And he talks about all these things that humans built that are amazing works of art or civil engineering in a very short amount of time. The Eiffel Tower was built in two years and two months. BankAmericard, which later became the Visa card, was launched in 90 days. 100,000 customers in 90 days. In 1968, NASA decided, let's go to the moon on the Apollo 8. 134 days later, they did it. The Alaska highway, which I've driven the entirety of 1700 miles of highway leading from northwest United States to Alaska, was built in 234 days. 1700 miles of highway in remote, rugged Alaska in 234 days. Disneyland, 366 days. Empire State Building, 410 days. We don't do this anymore. China's doing this. They can build a highway in a week. We're not doing this anymore. Go read the blog article. Because Stripe's entire culture is built around what if faster. Hey, we need to build this new feature for our payment system. How long will it take? Probably about 90 days. Can we do it this weekend? What? What? What? What? Yeah, you usually can. You can usually do anything much faster. And it's Parkinson's Law. Tasks expand or contract to fit the time or resources allotted to it. If you have a science project due in three weeks, you're going to take three weeks to get it done. If it's due tomorrow morning, you're going to do it by tomorrow morning. If you go to the buffet and you use a smaller plate, you're going to eat less food. If you use a bigger plate, you're going to eat more food. So if you give yourself a budget of six months to finish something, it's going to take six months. So this is the exact opposite of what I just said. Everything takes longer than expected, but anything can be done in a shorter amount of time than you think is possible. So back to the capital question. Do we need as much capital as we think we need? No. No. But also at the same time, everything seemingly goes over budget. If you remodel your house, you almost always go over budget. Yet you hear stories about people that remodeled their house beautifully on a shoestring, or about bootstrap startups, or about Isaac French at Live Oak Lake that got canceled by Airbnb with no notice where all of his bookings were coming from. And he had to get creative. And he found an Instagram influencer and he paid him 900 bucks, and he got $40,000 of bookings over that next weekend. Changed his life. Constraints equal creativity. If you have unlimited money, then you have no creativity. They do not coexist. Unlimited funds or resources. And creativity cannot be in the room at the same time. I've never witnessed it, and neither have you. So if you want to start a restaurant, that's $500,000, that's what everyone quotes you. Okay, how can I get creative? I can use a ghost kitchen. You can go find an abandoned space that used to be a restaurant that has all the equipment on site, and I just need to pay the lease. I can find a kitchen equipment manufacturer that does financing. There are so many ways to be creative. So on one hand, if you have to quit your job, that's a big deal. I would have more capital than you think that you need, but I would give yourself a budget of significantly less than you think is realistic. And you'll be surprised what you come up with if you actually, truly force yourself to be creative. All right, next question. Out of all the businesses that you've either come across or that you've started, which one or ones would you say is the lowest risk with the highest reward? Startup opportunity. Beautiful question. I pulled up my spreadsheet just for this question. It's called Every Business I've Ever Started, and I just started perusing it, and I just keep coming back to service businesses. A service business is all upside. If you look at our pet cremation business, this perfectly fits in line with what I was just talking about how constraints equal creativity. That is the formula. Constraints equal creativity. Put it on my tombstone. When we went to start this pet cremation business, we're like, geez, all right, we got to raise some money because These burners are $350,000, and we should really have a backup burner. That's $150,000 for the smaller version. So then you're in 500 grand. You got to have a facility, first month, last month's rent. You got to build it out. Let's raise a million bucks just to be safe. Yada, yada, yada. Okay, cool. We could have done that one tweet. We could have raised that. Then we started thinking, and I'm happy to say this was my idea, because I'm cheap. You grew up poor, and you end up cheap. And I said, what if we just use someone else's burner? Surely they're only used 10, 20% of the time. What if we just leased it from them or outsourced our cremations to them? Next thing you know, that's exactly what we did. We never bought a burner. We bought a $15,000 refrigerated van that was used on a farm. The check engine light was on when we bought it, because guess what? We didn't have a lot of options. Turns out there aren't a lot of refrigerated vans for sale in DFW for a halfway decent price. And that was our only cost. That's it. We're in business. We have a pet cremation business. Downside, $2,000. Because if it doesn't work out, then we sell the van for 13,000. Upside Unlimited. Okay. Constraints equal creativity. It's a service business on paper. All of our competitors, it's an asset heavy service business. I don't know of anyone that's doing the model like we're doing it. We got creative, and it wasn't that hard. It was one idea. There's a whole world on the other side of the sentence. What have we just tried? So keep asking yourself that. I think of our tree trimming business. That should have cost about 15 grand as well, because we really needed a truck. I already had a truck, so we didn't have to buy it. And really, if you really want to get picky, you don't even need a truck. You could rent a truck to go quote jobs so you don't look like an idiot. Or you can use a car and it kind of looks weird quoting a job in a car. But you just park down the road, park around the corner, who cares? Who knows? Throw a magnet on the side of it. So is a home service business the highest reward opportunity in the sense that it could be. It could easily be a $10 million business? No. Yes. Any home service business could be a $10 million business, but it's not easy. Ironically, service businesses are easier to start, easier to get to profitability, but harder to scale because it's people heavy and people are hard. Whereas a tech business, it's a little harder to start because you need some talent, but easier to scale because it's tech, it's software, it's code. So if you're looking for an asymmetric bet, forget products, forget retail, go after service businesses, digital marketing agency, email marketing agency, anything home service, anything outside, anything that makes you sweat and you'll win. Next question.

A man in my early 40s that has constantly lived paycheck to paycheck to paycheck. My wife and I have a bonus coming from work and looking to invest it a bit and grow a business. This photo booth thing that you just posted on Instagram is living rent free in my head. I cannot wait to learn more.

Craig, thanks for the question. For those that didn't see my photo booth reel, I basically profiled a business in some other country that makes like a portable room. Call it a 10 by 5 foot room with three walls, just open facing and then they put all kinds of metallic inflatable balloons, really funky looking stuff in there. And if you're watching on YouTube, I'll have it posted right next to my face as I talk about it. And you take this portable photo room, it's not a photo booth, it's not a photo wall. It's like a, it's a three sided room with no ceiling. And they take it to weddings, events, parties, corporate events, and they rent it out. You take pictures in it and you post them on Instagram. So the reason this is a cool business is because it's asymmetric, because it's a service business like I just talked about. It's funny how these questions kind of all meld together after a while, but it's a great business because it's so visual. And most people that own a visual business don't take advantage of how visual it is. They don't take advantage of Instagram, right? If I owned a pressure washing business, you better believe I'd be all over Instagram. In fact, I'm having a hard time thinking of a home service business that wouldn't do well on Instagram, car detailing, painting, roofing, any of those you could post eye catching time lapses. And that's why this photo booth business is awesome. Because you can build one for not too much money and you can just invite your friends and family over to take pictures and videos of it, post it to your own personal social media. I'm not saying this idea is dependent on having a following. And since it's so visual, since these videos organically go viral, you'll get customers from that. You will. But if you build this business in any other way off social media, you're going to be swimming upstream. It's going to be really hard. So I don't recommend that. So, Craig, if I were you, I would do that exact thing. I would take it to farmers markets, rent a booth, put the photo booth in the farmer's market. Have you ever seen that? I've never seen that, but it would work. It'd be a thing. You've got hundreds of people walking by, charge them five or ten bucks to take their picture in there, QR code. You could even do an on your honor system. You could drop it off and literally go home. Worst case scenario, you come back and pick it up and a half a dozen people took pictures but didn't pay you. It didn't cost you anything. Always be testing. Test everything except drugs. Okay? It's another paradox. I don't like reinventing the wheel. I don't like being the pioneer. Pioneers are the ones that get shot with arrows. I want to do something that someone's already doing. I want to copy them, but at the same time, I want to test all kinds of new marketing concepts. I will put an inflatable bull riding ring at a farmer's market maybe here in my town because we have one every other Saturday. I will do that before I die. Or at a mall or a gem mining operation in a popular mall like the Galleria of Dallas or Houston. Because I think it would work. It's not being done, which makes me nervous. But that fact also really, really, really makes me want to do it. I'm so curious about it. I got to know. So Craig, you go do it. Go to a farmer's market, something. Put a photo booth there, man it. Put a QR code up, see if people like it. If they don't like it, then shut it down. Try something else. All right, next question.

I own a health insurance business that speaks to individuals and companies. I was wondering how would you scale that to find leads of companies that are looking for assistance, where would you scrape? Would you look to find the most optimal leads? How would you get in front of them? That's honestly the blood of the business is whether you have leads or not. Curious to know your answers on that.

Thank you, Sean. Great question. I'm not gonna lie. Sometimes I hear these questions and they seem a little hairy, a little difficult. For me, Anything healthcare freaks me out. And you'll notice on my podcast when I'm talking to Nick and he brings up home health and hospice or PPOs or whatever, my eyes glaze over, I get stressed out, I get tired. And so I kind of wanted to skip this question, but let's just dive right in, okay? How do you sell health insurance? And not just to consumers, not to businesses, but either one, because you do it to both. So let's get creative. Because this is a constraint, right? That's what we do. First of all, there's two routes when it comes to health insurance. Three routes. You got the aetnas, you got the United Blue Cross Blue Shield. What are we going to learn from them? I have no idea. Those are monoliths that I can't even wrap my head around. And then you've got the Oscars of the world. Oscar was a highly touted VC funded startup. Hundreds of millions of dollars raised after Obamacare was enacted so people could navigate the health care marketplace. Okay, what do you learn from that? I'm not sure because I don't think you have $100 million laying around to growth hack this. Then you've got the third category, which I think you can learn from. You got the health care sharing plans, Christian healthcare ministries, Samaritan. There's a half dozen of them. They all sound about the same. I've used Christian health care ministries for eight years. It's not cheap, but it's cheaper than health insurance. And it's worked great, by the way. If you do want to use it, I have an affiliate link for you. Will you save like 600 bucks and I'll get 600 bucks? So it's great. But enough of that anyway. You got to see what they're doing to grow, man. Like, geez, I don't know how you grow a business like this other than just copying others relentlessly. Is it radio ads? Is it Dave Ramsey? If so, give it a shot. But let's get creative. One thing you have on your side is this is a polarizing topic on social media, especially Twitter. Dozens of times I've seen people post about their medical bill that was tens of thousands of dollars. And then the hospital was like, yeah, you don't need to pay this. As soon as they got a little pushback, tens of millions of views on these tweets, other tweets talking about how like, hey, those medical bills you have, don't pay them. Just don't. Just don't pay them. You'll be fine. And everyone's freaking out about it. And so ask yourself, how can you piggyback on the aspect of your business that's very polarizing? What can you do? Can you go find people that post about these polarizing healthcare topics and say, hey, next time you post you have something that's going viral, can you link to my business in the top comment? If so, I'll give you a referral fee. Health insurance isn't cheap, so that referral fee could be pretty hefty for them. You could go the old, you know, cold email method, the LinkedIn method, going through HR at companies. But I gotta think you're so crowded in that space. You gotta get creative. Like, if you're already selling to consumers, then bypass the companies. I don't know if anyone's selling me health insurance. I don't think you'd be that crowded going directly to consumers. I know to you it seems like you would be because you have all these competitors, top of mind, but go ask 30 friends. When was the last time someone tried to sell you health insurance and see what they say? I bet you'd be surprised. All right, last question. If you had an elite level ex Amazon app developer at your disposal, what kind of apps would you develop and how would you scale them? I just love how mysterious this one is. Of all the people that submitted questions, this guy's name was anonymous. Elite level ex Amazon app developer. Man, that's pretty cool. Okay, first of all, here's a framework that I have. The bigger a market, the bigger a tam total addressable market, the more shameless you can be about shamelessly copying what other people are doing. Okay, there's about a half dozen pieces of software out there that enable you to see what other apps are popping off in the app store. Tons of downloads, tons of reviews, tons of revenue. The one that I've used in the past is App Figures. I think it's appfigures.com I would get to know that software like the back of your hand, find out what apps are coming out on different app stores and or Amazon and just have them rip them off, Period, end of story, copy paste. A dumb game comes out on the Android app. Store copy it. Maybe you learn that an Average app gets 100 downloads the first day or 10 or 10 reviews the first week. And you see that's pretty consistent over time. And you see one that gets 832downloads the first day and 3768 the second day. How quickly could he copy that app? You can't copy it directly. You don't want to get sued. But take the same concept. Try to find the first principle of what makes that app great. Let's look at Angry Birds, right? We all remember 2011, 2012. Angry Birds was the hottest game in the app store. I was playing it. Why was it fun? Because of the colors, because of the noises. I think it was fun because it was the first app on the iPhone that really showed us how accurately the physical world could be reflected in the virtual world. It still blows my mind that you could hit a tower of glass or boxes and it reacts just like a similar tower would react in the real world. And I think that's the same reason why over time the app got less popular. Because that first principle of mimicking physics in the virtual world got played out. It wasn't novel anymore. Okay, Temple Run, an Endless Runner game, is one of the first. Was it popular because it reminded us of Indiana Jones? No, it was likely the gamification element of it. Which is why every other game or app or software, anything out there is all becoming gamified. From Strava to Slack, it's all becoming gamified. That's the first principle. It's not the app itself, it's what makes the app great. So find some new app. Even if it's kitschy, even if it's cringe, even if it's for 16 year olds. Don't look at it on a surface level. But boil it down, why do people love this? And go copy that in the Amazon App Store. Okay. I would love your feedback on this concept, this new segment, this new format. Pre recorded questions that I play and then answer let me know in the reviews. Would love a five star review or a rating. And I'd love to know if you'd like this format in future episodes. And if you want to ask me a question on the show, go to TKOpod, the Kerner Office podcast. Tkopod.com scroll to the very bottom and you'll see a little widget where you can record any audio message you want. Thanks for listening to the Kerner Office. We'll see you next time.