Matthew returns! How to copy competitors & make $6m/year with indoor sledding. Ep. #033

That ski resort had a webcam up on their snow tubing their whole season. And so the. So you can guess where I'm going with it this season. Before I literally just sat there with a clicker. I've got it somewhere, I need to find it. And it's pretty easy to figure out how successful something like that is.

Welcome to the Kerner office. I think you're going to love this one. Why? Because you loved. The last time I interviewed Matthew Ayers he was the guy that started the Alpine slide business. Episode 29 to be exact. We had a follow up up episode because we just couldn't get it all out. So he talked all about his business, Pigeon Forge snow and the subdivision that he's putting in and other random business ideas. He's a cool guy. I think you're going to like it. Please like subscribe and share with your friends. Thank you. When we last left off you have mentioned Pigeon Forge snow but we didn't really get into what made you think to start that. What did you see that triggered that idea? What was the startup process like funding it like the first month, first year? I want to hear the Pigeon Forge snow story because it's such a unique business.

Yeah, so that's a lot of questions right there I guess to give somebody a recap. So pigeon for snow is a indoor snow park. It's mainly snow tubing and it is actually the first, it was the first of its kind in the US and so what I mean by that is it is actually first off it's temperature independent which means that it is not sub zero. So it's call it 65 to 70 degrees in the building at all times. Maybe sometimes people reference one in maybe Dubai or whatever and those are sub zero. You gotta wear jackets or be really cold. So there's one and then the second thing is sometimes there's some snow parks but they're not open year long. And yeah, ours is year long indoor temperature independent snow park. So big word there. I created this indoor snow park and of people ask like well how did I come up with that? And as much as I would love to say that it was just my idea, I actually took inspiration from another business. About 30 or 45 minutes away there's a ski resort, an outdoor ski resort and they have snow tubing every year from Thanksgiving to, to Easter. They guarantee it. And so I was like how is that possible? Sometimes it's 70 degrees, sometimes it's raining, all that kind of stuff. And so what I found out was they use These machines that basically make the snow inside these giant containers, and they spit it out, and they basically pile up snow all year long so people can snow tube. And that really, from the outside looking in, is a critical part to their business because they can guarantee that. So my next question was, okay, if they can do that, can I just build a building and control the temperature and control the conditions and blow snow just like them? And the answer was, yes. And once we enclose the building, we had to overcome other factors. What do we do with all the melt? And I. One thing that I learned very quickly is water is snow's enemy. And so if you have a glass and you put an ice cube in it, and the ice cube starts melting, it'll melt even faster when there's water accumulating. And so, anyways, so we have to get rid of the melt as quickly as we can. And so under the snow, we designed this water capture system where we're basically, we're getting the water away from the snow as quickly as possible. The other thing is, there is water in the air and there's water on top of the snow. And so it's like, okay, how do we suck it out of the air? Suck it out of the snow?

And that's a technical term, right?

Yes, exactly. We have giant dehumidification systems that you might see in, like, ice skating rinks or whatever. And so we're pulling all that water out of the air. And what I think is really cool is it's gallons and gallons and gallons and gallons. But we actually recycle it and we use it for snow, you know, the next night or whatever. And so anyways, by controlling the temperature and conditions, we're able to offer Snow 365, 24, 7 in a controlled environment. And it was like testing a theory with those machines. And it worked. And, yeah, I'm big fan of testing things. If you want to, I can test how or I can tell you how I even tested if there was demand for this.

Yeah, I want to hear all that. Two questions that come to mind as you talk. First of all, how, when you saw the ski resort 30 minutes away, and that was your inspiration, how deeply did you go in, like, competitive Intel? Did you camp out there? Did you talk to the manager? I've done both. Right. I've literally camped outside a store and counted people walking in and out and, like, average order value, $12. Okay. And then I've also been like, that's a good idea. I'm copying it. And then that's it. That's all my research. Yeah, so.

So Chris, I think you can, I think you're an honest guy and you will attest to this was not a pre planned question. So the ANSW answer to that was that ski resort had a webcam up on their snow tubing their whole. And so the. So you can guess where I'm going with it.

The.

The season before, I literally just sat there with a clicker. I've got it somewhere, I need to find it. And it's pretty easy to figure out how successful something like that is. On top of that, you could only buy those tickets online and they had X number per. Per slot per day. And on their website when you went to buy a ticket, it'd say, I don't know, 40 out of 150 or whatever.

And so they made it so easy for you. They were begging you to copy them.

I know, it was insane. And so, yeah, somewhere I need to find it somewhere I've got those notes and it's like I know probably down to $100 what they did in that season. And so yeah, as I was planning it, I just counted that each day, like as I was eating dinner or whatever, I'm sitting there just counting, had other people counting for me too. And yeah, and, and then even after a week or two, you get a pretty good idea of, okay, are they busy during the mornings or the evenings or whatever? Yes, I. So for me at the time, and still is, snow was a huge financial bet and I was not going to risk my life in terms of being set financially and this and that and just my peace of mind for something that I wasn't sure that was going to work. And so yeah, I found every which way to test it. I'm calling up potential customers this and that. I had to make 100% sure that this thing is going to work. And I got to a point that I was confident enough that it was. And yeah, it was through being a little bit creative in seeing some other people's success or failures and keeping track of that.

Oh man, I want to do a whole podcast series. You could do a whole podcast period about just how to copy potential, how to, quote, draw inspiration. Like, man, it reminds me of E commerce. I come from the E commerce world and it's so easy to reverse engineer how much business store does you just. You place an order, you see the order number 24 hours later, you place another order, you subtract, you multiply by 365, you account for seasonality and Then you figure out their average order value, and now you know how much any E Commerce store in the world does. And then you can just. I'm so cheap that I don't even take delivery of the orders. I just cancel. Like, never mind.

So funny.

I got what I needed.

I. You know, we talked last time about the coaster that I built and that there was a competitor doing that first. And I think they actually changed their ticketing, like, receipt numbers because of me, because, yeah, I just do that every day. It was like 001-002. And anyways, yeah, there's a lot of that. And there's things that you'll hear other people doing that I would have never even thought of. Obviously, you've got the classics. Like, if it's a retail business, you sit outside and count cars. I think we've all been there to some extent, and, yeah, there's a lot of things you can do. I think that would be great inspiration for some people to have. Yeah. You could ramble probably for hours about different ways to test ideas.

Yeah. I think that there's a common misconception with entrepreneurs that we're risk takers.

Yeah.

And I feel like we are experts at mitigating risk, like, more than a W2 worker. Like, we do so much research, because I've been there. I've never launched anything that was that off the wall and risky. But it's like, this can't fail. We're talking seven figures here. This cannot fail. And so I'm guessing what you did was you got their numbers, and I want to hear what their numbers were. And then they were. You said they were, like, 30, 40 minutes away. If it was a ski resort, it can't be in the middle of Pigeon Forge. Right. So you're thinking, okay, it's only upside. I'm going to put this in the middle of Pigeon Forge. I've been to your facility. I know it's tucked back off the main road, but it's like, it's more convenient, it's more temperature controlled. I don't care about the rain. In fact, the rain could actually help me this. Worst case, I do half of what they do, and I make a $500,000 profit. But best case, I do three times what they do. Right?

Yeah. Yeah. And so one thing that I usually get on to people about wasting too much time on is creating pro formas and budgets and stuff, because usually they never come true. But I spent a lot of time on mine, and I can safely say I am so proud of that because it was so freaking accurate at the end, I'm calling the electric company and trying to calculate like how much electricity I'm going to use this and that. And then in terms of demand, you hinted at it. Some people say, okay, if I best case scenario, I have a hundred customers a day and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, okay, I want to know what is the least amount of customers I can have and still make this work? And I worked backwards. I said, okay, if this thing is a flop, what does that look like? And I was still happy with those results. And then, yeah, it's. It's something that a lot of people cheap out with some of their budget stuff. And it's like, why would you underestimate some of that stuff? Every single profile forma or budget I've ever put together, you have this miscellaneous at the bottom. And for me, that's usually just some of everything plus 20% or 15% or whatever because you're going to miss stuff. And it's about testing, it's about working those numbers. I will, for next time, I will go and look and see what the ski resort did. It was something that the ski resort Ober, they are open from Thanksgiving to Easter typically. So I've got a whole season or, or actually three seasons that they are not open. And so that should be a win. The other thing was that that ski resort, during the popular times, during the winter, they were selling out like I went on, I'm sure.

So who knows what their. Who knows what their tam was, right?

Oh, of course. It's something that if you go on like local Facebook groups or anything like that. They were a little bit more popular when I was doing that. But it's like people were like selling snow tubing tickets, like black market, whatever.

And yeah, that's always a good sign.

Yeah. And so anyways, I got really comfortable with the numbers, both in terms of revenue and potential costs. I was still nervous, of course, but believe it or not, that was the least of my worries. I just got so comfortable with it.

Do you remember what they were doing? Ballpark?

Yeah, I mean, it was definitely, I mean, don't quote me on this, but it was in the millions. An amazing thing too is every year they would raise their ticket price. So it was something like maybe like $25 plus taxes and fees, fees and blah, blah, blah, the first year, then it was 30. Then they went to dynamic pricing. I think last year.

I love these guys. They're hitting all my trigger words.

I know, I know. And so I think they were at like 45 or 50 last year. And yeah, it's a classic, like, supply and demand issue where they've got more demand than supply. So. Yeah, good on that.

So you want to. You just wanted to help them with that.

Exactly. They. I don't think they particularly liked me at first, but we've come around and yeah, they're doing great. I'm doing great. And yeah, I mean, I don't want anyone else to open up one, but there'd probably be room for another one.

Yeah, that's just. Just like your coaster story. You just grow the market when there's so much demand for something. Yeah, you just. It's a rising tide situation.

Exactly.

My next question revolves around, like, your water capture system. Like, yeah, I've talked to a lot of entrepreneurs, and sometimes they come up with this innovative method. Sometimes, like, they're actually having to beat their head against the wall and invent an innovative method and because that's the only way. And a lot of times it's just like they outsourced it or it's very simple. Right. Like, it's like water capture system. I installed rain gutters, right. I went to Home Depot, I bought gutters and put them underneath the sides of the slide. How extensive was that?

So that was something that I knew we had to have because you just go broke if you had to be on City water the whole time. And I have said it a lot lately. I don't know if you resonate with this or not, but a lot of I jump out of the plane holding the parachute and I put it on in the air. Don't recommend that for others, but for me, that's how it works. And so really, like, if you go back and look at our blueprints we were building, and for the water recycling system, there was just a big question mark on the blueprints. And it's like, okay, we'll figure it out. The reason I was okay just figuring it out was it couldn't be that complicated. Basically, at the end of the day, what it is this, the snow is on this hill, and obviously through gravity, as it melts, it's going to go downhill. And we have a huge collection tank under. Under the. Under the hill. And then from there we have a series of pumps like you can buy locally, and they take them to different tanks. And when it's something that it's actually on paper, it's a pretty simple system. Obviously, it took some engineering, and there's no worse day than when I get the call in the morning that the pump is broken water everywhere. But that happens a couple times a year. I'm a big redundancy guy, so now we have three pumps everywhere. But. But yeah, it was something that I knew that was a critical element through this whole thing. I had to have architects, engineers, blah, blah, blah, even just from a legal standpoint. But it was something that. One of my favorite processes was sitting down and working with them. And you just start spitballing ideas and you say, hey, we need a recycling system. And somebody throws out this idea or that idea and you just work through it together, or at least we did. And so, yeah, it was something that actually, believe it or not, like one of the very last things we figured out. We just knew we would and no one ever really stressed about it.

It's funny how I, I imagine you encountered this in both of your businesses a few times where it's like you talk to some expert, quote unquote expert, and you're like, all right, I need to recapture and recycle this water. And there's just, we can't do that. That's not a thing. You're like, dude, like I, I have employees tell me this on a weekly basis where it's like, hey, we need to fix this marketing funnel. So people get a text twice and like, yeah, it doesn't, it actually doesn't work like that. It's like, dude, stop. Yeah, we got rovers on Mars. Like, we've got. We. What is actually impossible today. It's not an automation for sms. It's not what recycling water. And then you always figure it out. You figure it out, man.

I. We are cut from the same cloth. I mean, I get so even sometimes personally frustrated and like, I have to take a step back. Like when people say no, it frustrates me. But when people say I can't do something, that really frustrates me. And yeah, people are so comfortable saying no or it can't work or whatever. It's like that's what they gravitate towards first. And even sometimes when I quote, do the impossible, even if it's something simple, like, it's just like, okay, on to the next reason why it won't work. On to the next reason. And it's like, man. And you know a funny story about experts, One of the. I think maybe the first person expert I hired in this was found out there was a guy that's what he specializes in terms of, like, friction coefficients of like snow and ice and snow tubing hills and all this kind of Stuff, So it's like, perfect.

Awesome.

You're hired. And this is how long we are going to make the hill. We need to figure out where are these people going to stop. These are the tubes we're using. Blah, blah. This is what you do. And so I got this fancy report and it's like, okay, you know all this engineering, hearing speak. It's like, great, okay. He knows what he's doing, I guess. And it was nowhere close. It was absolutely nowhere close.

Really?

Yeah, it was terrible. Because if you think about it, there's way too many variables like temperature and water and humidity and. Yeah. And you know how we did it?

We.

As soon as we could blow snow in the building, we blew a bunch of snow. I had some friends and family and whoever come over one night. We all took turns going down the hill, saw where we stopped, we loaded up with sandbags and this and that and just experimented. And thankfully we had some room there to play. It wasn't a mission critical kind of equation sometimes for me at least. I think playing around yourself and experimenting and seeing what you can find out is oftentimes way better than hiring an expert, regardless how much they cost.

Okay, I've got so many thoughts here. First of all, I got to get this out of my head. So the water, recapture the gravity does its job. You accumulate water on the slide. Gravity pushes down to the bottom, falls through a metal grate, ends up in a tank, pumps it up to a different tank, and then the snow system needs an intake of water, and instead of just using your city water, it's just pulling from the recycled water. Right.

Nailed it. Nailed it.

Love it. Okay. Second, I have to imagine that the whole time you're doing this, you're meeting with experts, you're investing a ton of money. Like, you're past the point of no return. If I were you, the big question mark in my mind is, will this be fun enough?

Yeah.

Right? Was that a worry like that first trip down the slide? Must have been. Must have felt amazing when you got down it, because that's the big question, right? Yeah.

Yeah, of course. You're right. That was a huge worry. Obviously, I tested that in a lot of ways. One thing is, I think sometimes, you know, you can make up for a lot of mistakes through price. And so it's like, okay, if I'm totally wrong, you know, what if it's $5 or what if, you know, whatever, can I make it out? And yeah, I agree. So one of the things was, and this was one of the reasons I hired the expert was you want, you want to go fast enough that it's exciting and then you want to go slow enough that kids and whoever can do it. And I'll be the first to admit, I think we got a little lucky in that regard. We ended up kind of clocking in around 30 miles an hour. And if it was faster than that, probably too scary for some. And if it's slower than that, yeah, it's going to get lame. And so, yeah, that was a huge worry up until the very first day. I himself, admittedly, I have very thin skin in terms of, like, I can take criticism. I don't take criticism that sometimes. And so it's like the first. Yeah. The first couple of people that had like a negative review or something, I was like, oh, my gosh, it's over. Oh my gosh. Screw you. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's just. Yeah. And, and, but, but anyways, like, then for every positive one, it started outweigh all the negative ones. And anyways, yes, I think we got a little lucky there. I always knew in my back pocket that if we didn't, A, we can physically change some stuff and then B, we can add and do more exciting things. I've left it the same, more or less, mainly because it works. There's a part of me that I feel like I should make time to add some more exciting elements to it. I've got some really out there ideas, but if, man, I'm just focused on whatever else and just never have that day when it's like, okay, let's figure out how to step this up. But it's definitely needed sometime soon.

Yeah. One thing that I love about launching businesses in areas like Pigeon Forge, which this is going to directly contradict what I said in our last episode 29. In our last episode, I was saying, like, you need to put something like this. Not you, but someone should put something like this in Dallas. Like gem mining in Dallas or an alpine slide in Dallas, because there's 9 million people baked in and they're getting visitors, right?

Yeah.

But the. I think the counterargument to that is you have a fresh crop of people every year. Aren't there like 10 million people a year coming to visit more?

Yeah, it's wild.

I would love to know what percentage of them are there for the first time. First repeat visitors.

Yeah, it's something that I grew up there. My grandparents are from there. And I have a unique insight of watching the demographics change over the years. It used to really skew much Older and that is changing more and more. And I think that works to our favor. Yes, I would love to know. Repeat versus first time. But. But yeah, I think even millennials and even younger start to come in. That's going to be better and better for us. You spoke about doing it in Dallas or whatever and I've got an idea that, yeah, if somebody wants help with, I mean not financially but just knowledge. I am a believer that you could do this somewhere like Dallas, but you don't have to invest millions. And so how you would do that is they make those snow. The snow machines that I have on mobile. Un. So mobile is a loose word. You've got a tractor trailer basically, but you can move it around and believe it or not, you just have to have access to just reasonable water, like a little bit more than garden hose, but not too much more. And three phase power, the three days power, it does get a little hairy, but there's ways around that. Anyways, I have thought about sometimes what if you went to call Dallas or I'm in Knoxville, the local mall or wherever that's not using a large part of their parking lot. Whether you just have snow just on flat ground that people can play with, or you've got, you know, that you build a hill out of kind of plywood and stuff. It doesn't. Or even out of snow, it doesn't take much. Obviously you would have to work out some kind of lease or rev share but potentially that comes down to how much you can, you know, work out the snow machine you can rent for a month or whatever.

Test the model before buying it.

Yeah, totally. And, or even just make it seasonal and say I'm going to run it every November, December, January and. And so anyways, yes, it would take a little bit of capital, but not what people probably have in their head. Insurance is not as crazy. I mean, you have to find somebody that's on board with what you're doing, but not as crazy. And then past that you just need some, you need a handful of people just, I won't say minimum wage, but whatever the, the going rate is and you know, past that it's some water and some electricity.

Yeah. So that if it were outside, it would have to be seasonal, Right?

Correct. Yeah. Okay. Okay. And that's honestly so even for us, our best season is basically Thanksgiving to, you know, sometime in January. We will do maybe about a third of our total revenue for the year in that, call it 60 day period.

People are just in the mindset. You don't think to go sledding in July, even if it would be really nice to get out of the heat. You just don't.

Totally. Totally. I don't know. I was gonna say you don't drink eggnog during the summer, but that's also because they don't sell it. But there's certain.

Yeah, but you still wouldn't.

Yeah. And that's why they don't sell it during the summer is because no one wants to do that. So. So yeah, there's just something that triggers, I guess, and take it as far as you want. Get Santa Claus there, whatever it is. There's a lot you can do. And I'm serious with that. Like, if somebody needs some guidance or wants someone on that, I think it would totally work. I can't guarantee it, but happy to help somebody.

Okay. Awesome. Yeah. Well, email Matthew. Yeah. If. If you have a question. So I. I like the idea of. Did you hear my podcast a couple ago where I had. It was my call in show and this guy had the flow rider idea.

Yeah. Yeah.

You could put one something like that in a mall parking lot and just like it sounds awkward. Like parking spaces around this fake surfing structure, but why the heck not?

So with the flow rider thing, one thing. So I've only been familiar with them, like on cruises or things like that.

Same.

And something like that I call a spectator activity. Like one person is doing it, but.

Like the gem mining kind of watching.

Yes, yes. And like I talk about this figurative like grandma all the time. And you want something that grandma and the parents and the little brothers and sisters can all stand around and watch somebody do it. It's something that I think you've got to rope in the whole family to something like that. You've got to have pictures whether the customers take them or you professionally do it. And it's a memory for everybod, even if somebody's not participating in it. So love that you say it's awkward in a parking lot. Like, sure. But you can dress that up. The other thing is, like, people love crowds. If there's a crowd of people standing around watching something, you're gonna go check that out. And even if you were giving away, I don't know, free popsicles or something, get the people over there. And then I think it takes care of itself.

I love the pictures idea. Or a video. Like you could just have a GoPro running 247 and it's like, hey, all right, let's go to check out. It's 15 bucks. It's 25 bucks. If you want us to email you the video slash pictures later and it'll send it in 24 hours. What if you did this? I think the downside with it being a mall parking lot is I think this could be a very spontaneous, impulsive thing. And if you don't have your swimsuit, you're not going to buy it. True, right? Yeah. And so maybe you just go to all the hundreds of small to mid sized water parks. I mean, in dfw, there's dozens that you've never, no one has ever heard of and they don't have these and they're not about to put one in. So just say, hey, we need 400 square feet somewhere, anywhere. And maybe you could even have them upsell like at the counter. Like, all right, the day pass is 35, but unlimited FlowRider access is 45. And you just do a rev share with them.

Yeah, totally. It comes with stuff like that. I think it comes down to your skills of, I won't even say negotiating, but like getting creative where there's a win for both people. And yeah, it is tough because, okay, take snow. I've got this big multimillion dollar facility and yeah, I've had people come and pitch me, hey, can I put a vending machine in here and we'll split it. And it's like, hey, no offense, but I can just buy it. It's all good. And so like, you know, that's a tough sell. But I'm sure there is something that I would be open to as a business owner. One of the biggest things when you're approaching business owners like that with kind of a deal or whatever is making sure that you're not giving them more headaches. Like you want to take away headaches. And in fact, like you just want to say, hey man, I can money in your pocket and just let me do my thing. And so, yeah, anyways, like partnering with water parks, we only have one or two here, so I can't really speak to that. But yeah, if there's a lot somewhere like Dallas, it's like, man, it wouldn't take that much to just go talk to everyone or try to talk to everyone.

No, and you just, you get a contract in place and then you buy the thing.

Yeah. Oh yeah, totally risk free. They even make these things and your guys, water parks might have them, but they're these like little booths you can stand in and dry off pretty quickly. It just blows on you or whatever. And like whether it's a mall, park lot or whatever, like maybe you also have that. And guess what? You get a potentially charged for that too.

Yeah. Or they have the sunscreen application booths. Have you seen them?

Really?

You just stand in and you put your arms out and it sprays you with sunscreen. Sounds like torture.

So funny.

I mean, people pay for it.

Yeah.

So what was it? Sorry, go ahead now.

What's your question?

What was the first month and year like for Pigeon Forge? Snow and covet aside, have you had a down year, just like a natural down year? Or is he. Have you just grown every year?

Yeah, I built snow and I, I say 365 days. It might have been a little bit longer, but it was. When I say 365 days, it was every single day. And so one thing was, it's like, okay, gotta get open, gotta get open. And when I got open, like I then had that realization. It's like, oh, okay, now it's just starting. And I think I had maybe a month or two of like just crashing in bed. And thankfully I had some, I had a lot of help, but it's just like, oh my gosh, I gotta take a break. And it was something that you're trying to figure out all these things on the fly. And so like the first, I'll call it three, four, five months. We're rough in terms of figuring out what we need to do and what we need to fix and who we need to have and hire and blah, blah, blah. Sales wise, it was good. I spent those 365 days building a email list, getting people excited.

How did you build the email list?

Yeah, so. So probably our biggest thing was our Facebook page. A little bit by accident, I just started posting pictures. Like I. When the bulldozer came in to clear the dirt off the lot, I just took some crappy pictures on my phone, posted, and said, hey, getting started.

And people love, like, this is your personal Facebook account.

Oh, no, I'm sorry. Created one for snow. And.

And okay, you opened a page. Okay.

Yeah. And at the time, I, I don't think a lot of people, at least in my area were doing that. It's like, okay, wait until you have something official and you have something done. But yeah, I just let people fall along in the journey and I did all kinds of stuff. Like I created like these VIP T shirts with our logo on it. And I can't remember what you got, you know, you could come for free, you know, the first year. So anyways, if you bought one, blah, blah. And so anyways, yeah, built up a lot of demand that way. And so anyways, we got open and it was just even more work as soon as we got open. We had an initial wave from grand opening and then died down. We. We opened up in the spring, mid to late spring. And we were going into, unbeknownst to me, a slower time of the year, May. That kind of May period is maybe our slowest month of the year. And so that was a little disheartening. I didn't know. And so anyways, it gave us a chance to catch up our first year. I going to say we did a couple million dollars, which was good. We. We made a profit. Definitely made a profit. And then we just continued to go up. Then Covid hit in 2020. I hope. I don't know what it's like where. Where you are, but we were closed as a city for maybe like 30 days or something. You. Yeah, yeah. And so anyways, we became an escape, you know, for the rest of the country. And so the whole town boomed. So 2020, even though we're closed for 30, 45 days, that was actually our best year at that point. Even in.

That was your second year.

We opened up in 2018. Yes.

Third year.

Yeah. And. And then 2021, even better. I don't know if we doubled, but it was pretty dang close. We were in like 5, 6 million range. 2023, we backed off maybe 10 or 15%, which was. Was once again disheartening for me. I was like, oh, my gosh. Okay, so this isn't going to go straight up, But I think that was a rebound from COVID and some craziness there. I think the whole. From what I can gather, the whole towns that way. And 2024 is about on pace, I'd say, with 2023.

Okay.

I constantly worry that there's some kind of like, economic slowdown. It hasn't happened yet, but every year I worry about that. But. But yeah, we're good in terms of sales. It's just obviously it's awesome when the numbers go straight up of, so do.

You own the land and the building.

Yeah, that's probably a story for another day. But yeah, it was. It was just really kind of creative way of getting the land. And it just, you know, I think a lot of luck and. And it just worked out with a seller that was tired and. And so I stepped in there and it was a weird lot. It is a weird lot. And we had to do a lot of head scratching on, like, how do we make this work? And so, yeah, you know, when, when I talk about the millions invested, most of it goes into the building and, and the land and in fact, the first call it, year and a half, I leased the machines. In hindsight. In hindsight, yeah. Maybe like wasted money. We talked about minimizing risk. I didn't want to be on the hook for multi million dollar machines. And so that's what, that's what everyone thinks the big cost is. But no, I bought those ones. I knew we were good and I could pay for them in cash. The buildings, just any metal building like that or in general, 35,000 square feet is going to be costly. But yeah, we, I tried to minimize everywhere I could. I don't recommend this, but like I installed the speaker system myself. Like the sound system. Like, I mean. Yeah. Was that the best use of my time? I don't know.

You did what you could.

Yeah, yeah. Like I'm buying it off Amazon myself, like that kind of thing. And so, so anyways, yeah, yeah, I forgot what the original question was, but there you go.

Yeah. So you recouped your money over the course of two or three years on this?

Yeah, yeah. Or, or less. It's something that now in hindsight, I have really good terms, but I think I could have done even better. But I think about debt a whole lot. I've got several different loans for different things and like I said, I worry a lot sometimes about the state of the economy and stuff and what my kind of debt load should be. I am, I'm nowhere close to being in trouble or whatever, but it's something that I think about a lot and try to manage. It's something that some debt I've refinanced or has come due at much higher rates, which really sucks, and then others are low and I might not pay them off for a long time. And yeah, on paper, yes, I have recouped everything and more.

That's awesome. How, how tall is your building?

Yeah, it varies. I think the tallest point is maybe about 40ft. Good way to. If you're standing in the front of the building outside and you're looking at it, I believe that's 26ft tall. The, the front facade. So it varies a lot. Obviously we built a hill inside. Inside of buildings. That's why there's the height. Knowing what I know now, did it have to be as tall as it is? No, I, I think we could have shortened that. I don't know what kind of cost savings there would have been. Let's say we brought it down five feet Maybe it wouldn't be significant enough to do it, but just one of those things we didn't know. And another thing is wanted to create this kind of grand big kind of feel anyways. Yeah, it's a big building for sure. It's something that I worried about. Okay, well, if I need to repurpose it, what is it going to be? And, and the best thing I come up with is a movie theater. Thankfully, I don't think that's going to happen. But, but yeah, that was, I was.

Going to ask you that. What else could this building be? Yeah, I know you've thought of that.

Yeah, you could get creative with a bunch of stuff that, I mean the big problem is half of the or two thirds of the building is a big concrete hill. I don't know. Yeah, all kinds of like storage or again, I, I think a pretty sick movie theater take a little bit of work or. Yeah, I don't, I don't know. I, I, yeah, if I had to think of that, I, I, I'm not worried about it. I know I could repurpose it.

So if someone were to find a building with similar dimensions, could they rent it and put one of these in there or would it be just too much?

Yeah, definitely. So 2022, 2023. I spent a lot of time working with two amazing guys that are super experienced with franchising. And we met in person for months and started to develop this brand of how can we franchise this? And it was something that I had a lot of stuff in my personal life going on outside of business and I just needed to put a pause on that. But, but anyways, like I have, we have done a lot of thinking about that. And so really I think the best thing to do there is figure out out what's your budget and work backwards. Because obviously if you say, okay, I've, I got $10 million to blow. Okay, that's a different answer. If you're just trying to piece something together. Okay, maybe you look at something what I said with renting a snow machine or whatever. But if you've got a building, these are the things you have to figure out. One, you have to have a hill. And everyone I think takes that for granted. I think you can build it with scaffolding and supply wood and stuff, but you still, you gotta figure that out. There's a lot of weight that's going on that in terms of the snow and the people and stuff and so not impossible, it's been done before, but that's a big one. Second thing is, how are they going to get to the top of the hill? I have a magic carpet. You can definitely install one, too. It's not that crazy, but if they're going to walk, just keep that in mind. And then, like I said, you need to be able. You don't even have to recycle the water. I would recommend it. Not that hard to do. You just got to catch it, drain it off somewhere, filter it, all that. And then obviously you have to have the snow machines and stuff, but yeah, if you had. I'm trying to think what would be a good. Like just an empty warehouse or something like that. If you thought that it was a good location and the right kind of demand, if you figured out how to build the hill, which is not that hard, but that's the biggest thing. Yeah, you could definitely do something like that. You can also consider. Don't do a huge hill. Like, if you've got a big warehouse and you still want to do something like this, blow a ton of snow in there and you can make little slides. Whether it's for kids or just whatever.

You make a long. A longer hill, right? Yeah. Instead of a taller one.

Yeah. There's so much you can do. Just a, quote, normal warehouse would probably be good. You're going to want to have a little bit insulation. We don't have any. Anything special, but you don't want like a. A barn or something like that unless it's just really cold. So. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of different ways you could hack this together.

It's. It's tough because a lot of these existing buildings are in such industrial areas that consumers would never think to go to. Right.

Yeah. The first trampoline park I saw here in Knoxville was, like, I don't know, way over 10 years ago. And it's like, in the middle of Industrial Park. And I know it's changed a lot, but I thought it was the coolest thing ever, like, driving in this, like, weird industrial park, and it was packed. I haven't gone to one in a long time, but. But I don't know if that would necessarily stop me. But, yeah, I would definitely consider location. For sure.

Yeah. I was thinking about trampoline parks, too. So with that in mind, is there, like, a fun Matthew 3.0 concept that you. You dream about? You got coasters, you got slides, and. And I also want to hear about what you're actually working on as well, because we didn't.

Yeah, definitely. So, yeah, I keep a running list of ideas and when it comes, I'm sure you've got a long list too, but when it comes to amusements. Yeah. It is such an amazing industry. And so, like, I'm definitely gon do something new. One kind of high level concept that I was thinking about is do you know what like a Rube Goldberg machine is?

Have you ever heard.

It's like, it's a name for the contraption of like, if you ever played Mousetrap back in the day where it's like one thing happens and there's blah, blah, blah. And so anyways, even though putt's a little tired, I always think about it. Okay, like, what is everyone's favorite hold? But it's the last one and it's because it does something crazy. And it's like, why can't every hole be like that? And yeah, do something cool there.

I've got something like a Rube Goldberg putt.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And just some really cool. Just, you know, lasers, laser trip sensor for this and then this drops and speaks and all kinds of crazy stuff.

That'd be cool.

Yeah, I definitely will do something else in the amusement space right now. Personally, I am trying to, I guess, reel back a little bit and I've got so many irons in the fire and I ended up growing a lot and just doing everything myself. And so actually I've made a commitment to myself and my girlfriend Heather. Like, I've got. My next step has to be delegation and building out the team of. Of the right kind of people. Delegation is something I am terrible at. And so it's something that, even though it's not that sexy, that is my next, my next thing. If. If anyone's listening to this and thinks that they can help me in whatever way, I mean, at least put it in the comments and I'll look at it. But yeah, I'm defin. Build out a team to get some of my life back is the next thing that's smart.

Yeah, it's tough. I'm still trying. I've gotten better at it. But it's not like some. You like flip a switch and you're like, all right, everything's delegated. It's just you always are working at it. Like every time I do something, in a perfect world, if I was strict with myself, every time I do a task, it's like, do you have to be doing this, Chris? Do you have to be. And 80% of the time it's no.

Yeah. And it's something that, like, even though I know that on Paper. It's like you constantly struggle with this. Okay, this is a one off task. I'll never repeat it again. It'll take me three times as long to explain it to somebody. I'm just gonna do it. And then I've ran into a lot of people that are good people, but they, I guess, really want me to hold their hand through everything. And maybe that's even my fault. But it's something that I'm just looking for more people that are capable, autonomous, I want to support, but can support me too. Instead of just me trying to build up somebody's career or lifestyle or whatever. I need those great people. And that's what I'm. That's what I'm after.

Yeah. Okay. Aren't you building something outside right now like you were talking about those kayak rental machines? Yeah. What is.

Yeah, yeah. What does that mean? So, yeah, I've got a subdivision I was working on. Even it's right before COVID has been just such a nightmare. And so it's 80 acres. It's beautiful. If you want me to, I can text you some pictures or whatever, but it's right on the water. And anyways, we are in an area that is very short on housing. And if you look at Knoxville and Sevierville and everything, especially post Covid, like, prices were some of the highest increasing in the country. And it's because the supply demand thing, like, the supply is not there and there's a huge demand. And so anyways, I was like, okay, I've done some, what I think are amazing things, how hard could be, you know, taking a farm and, you know, putting utilities in and chopping it up and putting a road in, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm not even building the homes. I'm just selling them to somebody to build them. And come to find out, that's a little harder than I thought. And really what is so hard about that is you're dealing with all these local utility companies, all these local governments, planning commission, zoning, all this work that I don't like. I like to take action. I like to build. I like to get my hands dirty. You're dealing with processes and red tape and permits and procedures. And you look at them and I mean, I've even told them, I'm like, this is why there's a housing problem. No one can get anything done. And so anyways, I am close to the end there. I did it in two phases. The first phase was the largest, and we'll call that 100 home sites, which are done People live acres. Yeah, yeah, okay. They're single family homes.

In hindsight, what size? I'd love to hear that if you don't mind. I'd love to hear the unit economics, like what you paid for the land, how much each lot is being sold for, how many square feet and all that.

Yeah, of course it's something that I am still in the process and we've blown the budget out of the water. It's in, in, in a negative way. Anyways. I can give you some rough stuff. There's about 100 lots that I sold in the first phase and there's call it 75 lots coming in this phase that we're finishing, we're actually paving today. That's one of the last steps so close to being done. And so anyways, with the first phase and the second phase, there's basically three kinds of lots. There's what I call the standard lot. There's a premium lot and there's a river lot or premium, however you want to say it. So standard lot, you're looking at about a third of an acre comes with all utilities that's going to run, call it 50, 60,000, something like that, just for the lot. And then you've got premium lots which.

So are you selling the lots to builders or to the consumers? And then they have to find their.

Own, mainly to one home builder. But I have sold some individually. But yeah. So selling those to home builder then however they package it together, maybe they, however they come up with their price for the home. The home builder. I was originally wanting something that was what I would call affordable housing. After Covid. I don't even know what that means. The houses are probably, you know, three, $400,000 which they're new construction, three bedroom most of them, that kind of thing. Beautiful. So anyways, then there are the premium lots which are larger than a third of an acre. They might be, you know, on a corner or just a better setting. That's maybe 10 or 20% of the lot lots and that'll be called on average 70, 75,000 per lot what, what I receive. And then there's the river lots which are like ultra premium. I have sold quite a few of those. I still have quite a few as well. I think the cheapest one I sold was maybe a hundred thousand. I think I sold one for like 180,000, 170,000. So pretty good. They're absolutely beautiful. And so anyways, yeah, so you've got a blend of all of those. I've got about 40 river lots in all. So you work back and do the math. I think probably just doing, off the top of my head, probably have potential real estate that I would receive proceeds for. When you add them all up, then I'm probably. Don't quote me on this. I'm probably in it. I don't know, 5 or 6 million in development costs, something like that. It's definitely. It's taken years off my life, so I don't know what that is, what is that's worth, but money wise, yes, it is. It is a good return. I have learned that there is no one, no other job title that's hated more than a developer. So that is.

Or custom home builder. That's a brutal business.

Oh, my gosh. Everyone hates you. Everyone thinks that you're just rolling in the money and not doing anything. And so it's. Anyways, I don't think I'm going to build another subdivision for a little bit. It's been rough stuff, but. But no, it's. I am proud to be able to deliver homes to families. A lot of them is their first home. Maybe it's forever home for some people. Really happy about that. It's something that I think I just need to get. Step away from it a little bit, take a breather and then I'm sure I'll do it again. But, yeah, we're finishing up phase two, if anyone wants to look it up. The name of the subdivision is called the Farm at River Bend. Kind of fancy name, but, yeah, I think it's beautiful. I think it's a great.

Oh, right, in Sevierville.

Yeah. Yeah, it's. It's probably, I don't know, 20 or 30 minutes away from Pigeon Forge. Snow in the countryside, that kind of thing. Yeah, maybe 20, 30 minutes away from Knoxville. Yeah, it seems to be a popular area. Yeah, definitely. And so, yeah, if anyone's in the area or wants to move, give me a shout. I'll definitely, definitely show you a house, man.

I mean, a riverfront lot for 150. I would love to live on the water. That is a dream.

Oh, yeah. Unreal. Yeah. If I wasn't living, I. We bought our dream house like last year or something and yeah, I thought about moving down there and you. Yeah, thankfully I found where I live now and just so happy with it.

So, Matthew, like, why. Why do you go so hard on these ideas? Like you. You just don't. You don't start small. You're like, let's do a roller coaster. Let's do a $5 million indoor ski resort. Let's do a $10 million subdivision. Have you ever started a business that was, like, small, you, like, dip your toes in and.

I mean, I guess now that you say it like that. Yeah. I never thought about like, that, especially when I was younger. All the little hustles and. And, you know, flipping and this and that, and it's all relative. I'll say. Even when I was coming out of college, I started CrossFit gym with some friends, and I started a frozen yogurt store when that was hot. And, like, at the time, each thing that it did was, like, the biggest thing for me.

You just kept leveling up.

Yeah. Yeah. And looking back at some of those things now, I'm like, oh, okay, that was nothing. But, man, like, I probably lost more sleep during the frozen yogurt store kind of days, which, in hindsight, wasn't that big of a deal. I lost a ton of sleep there and ton of stress. And there were many times, like, whether it's just somebody being critical or whatever, you just want to say, okay, I give up. And so anyways, I think you're seeing hindsight's 2020 kind of thing. I think you're seeing not my final form, but where I currently am. And, you know, another thing is, like, I said in the beginning, like, I think I like to jump out of the parachute or jump out of the plane and figure it out with the parachute on the down. And there's something about that pressure, I think, that I do well under. A lot of times I want to pull my hair out and scream, like. And say, I don't want to do this anymore. But then when I'm sitting around long enough, it's like, okay, let's, you know, let's try something else. And. Yeah, that's just how it goes.

Yeah. Have you thought about putting an alpine coaster in Beaver's Bend? I. I did a little research, and, I mean, it's obviously two and a half hours from DFW. You. They get 2 million visitors a year, so a fifth or a sixth of the size of Pigeon Forge, but there are zero coasters there right now.

Yeah, it's something that I get really nervous with any physical business that isn't my area. That is. Does totally on me.

Oh, okay. Yeah.

You're all over, it seems, you know, the US with some things, and I've never done that before, so maybe that is like a, you know, a new frontier for me. Me.

Yeah. I mean, it's. You said yourself, like, you can't really Start one of those for 10 million bucks nowadays. So.

Yeah, but, like, again, I think if somebody's listening and is inspired, like, there are ways around that or ways to get involved. I did not do that first one all myself. I did not own it all myself. And there was somebody actually in the group that owned 1% of it, did some survey and engineering work for us. And I don't know if it was a mistake or not, but he got 1%. And so I think if somebody was determined enough, like, even a deal like that, I would be happy to coach somebody through how to get involved in something like that. I saw a lot of your comments on some of the posts you made about our conversation. And, yeah, going back to everyone's just so saying why something won't work, and.

It'S their comfort blanket.

Yeah, it's.

They would never do it, so they don't want to think it would work.

What shocked me about the candy comment was you had half the people saying, hey, this has already been done, so you can't.

Yeah, you lose. That's great.

Yeah. Yeah. And then you've got the other half of the people saying, no, this can't work. You're an idiot. And it's like, yeah, both of you can't.

Germs.

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah.

And there were so many times I wanted to comment with. I don't think they realized, like, oh, I'm doing that. I'll take a picture of my candy store right now, and it's okay. Like, people can doubt or hate or whatever, but if there was actually somebody listening to this and, like, man, I. I want to try to, like, like, you know, put something like that together. You don't have to do it alone. You don't have to be the main person. But there are ways to get involved with something like that. So for me, I'm. I'm saying right now, like, I don't know how comfortable I would be about investing in some like that in. In a different state. So it's like, how would I get involved? One thing that I have is I can consult, and that can take a lot of different forms. I could also just. I like to help and what. Or maybe invest passively. There's a lot of different forms. How could you, the person that has no experience, do it? Okay, we'll fly out here where I'm at, not my house, but in Pigeon Forge, ride a lot of these, ride them all. I'll even get you the tickets if that's what you want, figure out how they work Take a bunch of pictures, put together a presentation, go back home or wherever this is going to go and start pitching some people on, like, hey, this works. I. If you didn't watch the last one, literally the investment decision was started by somebody that knew my family, sent us a picture of a line of people lining up on this alpine coaster. I'd never seen it before. And that is what started it all. Like that video is what started it all.

And it's interesting because for every business I've started, there's probably been a dozen each that, that started like that. There's just an idea if someone came to me with. And then it, it always fizzles.

Yeah.

It never comes through.

Right.

So the fact, like how much had to go right for it to go from a picture text to you actually having a coaster. Right. What incredible odds for that to actually have come to fruition.

Yeah. And I will have to compare idea books sometimes, but mine is very thick of idea and even stuff that I've tested or tried, and I'm sure you have too. But it's something like, like, yeah, there's a ton of them that like, either just didn't come together, wasn't a good idea. We didn't give the right feedback at the right time to make something like that work. And it's all good. It's. There are so, so, so many ideas out there. And like, my friend, my friend had an idea just the other day and he told it to me. And personally I didn't think it was the best idea, but I was like, hey, why don't you, why don't you go run this past a few people, see what they think, see if they can get excited about too. And his answer to me was that I don't want to tell them because they might steal it.

Stupid.

And yeah, I know, I just.

Whatever.

Yeah.

He just doesn't understand it yet.

Of course. And so I guess it's just like, yeah, if there's people listening and they're like, man, one exercise I do. I was thinking, I was journaling last night about delegation because I've got this problem that I was talking about and it was like, okay, what creative ways can I fix this? Like, what creative ways can I view. How would I view this working in my life? Life maybe in a non traditional way and work backwards. And so if your thing is, I would love to be a part of an alpine coaster. I would love to own even any of it. And I'm willing to work really hard, like start with that and work Your way backwards. Like, I'm literally saying, contact me, and I will help you get there. Not financially, but through knowledge. And. And so, yeah, I mean, if anyone's interested, here's your shot.

All right. You guys heard them.

Yeah.

It's funny about ideas, because a lot of times people think that you got to get the timing right of an idea, and I think that is very true to an extent. Like you, I'm usually more early than I am late to an idea. But one thing that I've noticed about ideas that I never launched, like, I could launch them today, a decade or two later, and it would still work. I remember in College, this is 13 years ago ago, I read an article about some guys out of Utah, a company called Eco Scraps, and they went to grocery stores and restaurants, and they got all of their organic waste. And they did restaurants first, but then eventually they learned they just wanted fruits and vegetables. So they only went through grocery stores. And the grocery stores were just paying someone to throw these away.

Yeah.

And they. Their pitch was, hey, pay us to throw them away. So they had a negative. They had over 100% COGS. Right. They were getting paid to take the stuff. And then they literally just rented this big industrial warehouse in the middle of nowhere. They stacked all these nasty pieces of produce up. They mixed in some sawdust because they needed some carbon, and they just composted it indoors. And then they bagged it up and sold it for, like, 12 a bag to home Depot and Lowe's. And it was, like, really good soil. And so it's like, no one loses. Yeah, right. They get paid to take the product. It's better soil oil. And they ended up selling to chem, like, some major company. And I was going to copy them with a couple investors when I was in college 12 years ago, and I had a couple lunches with them. I put a deck together, and we were literally just going to do the same thing.

Yeah.

Like, I was in Alabama, they were in Utah. They only have 10% of the grocery stores in Provo, and they were crushing it. So it's like, there's plenty big enough. And I never did. And, like, I could launch that today. And I remember going. I went to Whole Foods, actually. Like, I got so far down the road with this idea, I talk like, yeah, we don't. We'd love to have you take our produce. And that's, like, the hardest part. And I could launch that today, and it would still be just as good, if not better. Exactly. And there was. And around the same Time period. I was a student at Alabama. I read an article about insomnia cookies. And it was just a cookie shop way before crumble. Their whole pitch was like college campuses and delivery open till 4am and you could get like warm cookies and milk delivered to your door. And they were crushing it. It. And it was like they were open at Ole Miss, they were open at Mississippi State, they're open at lsu. There's nothing in Alabama. Yeah, yeah, there was nothing in Alabama. Yeah. And then I went to these investors and they're like, yeah, let's do it. And I, I did a bunch of research. I never did it and I don't regret it because I just did something else. Right? But today, right on the strip, right next to this Alabama Stadium, there's an insomnia cookies.

Yeah. Yeah.

And they crushed it. And that could have been mine.

And I think we are very similar because I, I could tell those stories all day too. And like, like I, I don't know, I get a little pissed at myself sometimes. Like, you see that and you're like, man, I, I could have done that. And maybe that's a flaw with me. But then, then I see others and it's like, oh, yeah, okay, so I was right. And it's like, okay, yeah, may, maybe I just would love to help people get past that idea phase and start figuring out how to actually make things happen in whatever capacity. I just, I don't know. Reading those comments again, it's just like so many people are stuck on no. And maybe the answer is no, but yeah, it's just like. Anyways, I, that's one reason why I'm supporting what you're doing. I think it's amazing that the live call ins where people are giving business ideas. I think I said this like I'm in the car, literally, like giving my opinion out loud.

Yeah. Hey, Chris, Chris. Say this, say this.

I know, I know. And so. No, you're doing great work, man.

Thank you. Thank you, man. This is fun. I'd love to have you again. I feel like we could talk forever.

Definitely. Just. Yeah, next time I'll make sure to get a real connection. I thought I had it, but yeah, we'll get a more solid connection next time.

What is your email? So if people don't comment or whatever, how can they email you?

Yeah, sure. Amazon, Matthew. And then A's, A Y E, R S the number 44gmail.com.

Okay, so M just M Ayers 44gmail.

You got it.

A y ear.

Yep and yep. If I can help with anything knowledge, just. Just let me know. I'm happy to hop on and call sometime.

Okay? Thanks, man.

Awesome. All right, I'll see you, brother.

All right, bye. All right. I hope that was good. I hope you liked it. We're going to have Matthew back on. Please subscribe and share with your friends. Have a good day.