The Truth About the Music Industry’s Money Game⏐Ep. #235

I graduated high school in 2005, and believe it or not, I was an emo kid in high school, and I firmly believe that 2003 was peak emo, the best year for emo music ever. But what does that have to do with business? Well, the other day I noticed that one of my emo heroes, Ace Enders, was following me on Instagram. If you've ever heard of Taking Back Sunday, brand new, the early November, something corporate, etc. Those are emo bands. And Ace Enders is a legend in the emo scene. He was the lead singer of the Early November, and now he has his own solo act called Ace Enders. And he's freaking awesome. And so I DM'd him and said, let's talk about the music business on my podcast. He said, let's do it. So, yes, we talk about music, but we also talk about business ideas and the music industry and how much artists are paid. And I think you'll love this conversation because I'm enthusiastic about it and my data shows that if I'm excited about something, you guys are excited about something. So please enjoy this conversation with Ace Enders of the early November and of Ace Enders, and also check out his new album that's coming out on Halloween. What was the with the Get Up Kids drama?

We got sued by them. Oh, we did this tribute on the Room's Too Cold where we used one of their lines and we got approvals. But I guess there was like, some crossed wires in the approvals. And we released the single, like, three weeks after we got the approvals because things, you know, moved differently back then. Then they slapped a lawsuit on us, a gag order, like, percentage of the song and everything. It was, like, devastating because they were like my heroes back in the day. So it was like, you learned really quickly. Wait, this is a business. This is not a, you know, we're all out here, like, rooting for each other type of thing. And where my point of view was like, I'm going to use these words because they helped shape me as an artist or a young artist. You know, it's just one of those unfortunate incidents where it's like, okay, now I can never say this because why? I think there was like a gag order for a certain amount of time back then. It was like eight or ten years or whatever. We couldn't say anything. And we had to continue to pay royalties. Yes. Like, they got, like, large percentage of the songs.

Oh, man.

Royalties. But I mean, it's, you know, whatever they were doing. What they felt they had to do. And, you know, it's an unfortunate thing, isn't it?

Funny how, like, in the moment, it was like the worst thing that had happened to you. But looking back, it's like that was honestly nothing.

Yeah, well, I mean, it definitely still is a bitter spot to me because I'm so. I think so differently. I can never imagine, even if someone was like, yo, I'm stealing this. I could never imagine being like, art, man. It's whatever. It's like, this is not something you can put. Really put too much of a. Like a boundary on. Everybody can have their interpretation of it. It's a weird thing music is. The industry is weird like that. It's like, you know, you got your people who take it extremely seriously, who, like, it's all about business. And then you got the people who are the other side, where it's just like. It's really just about that human connection and cultivating that type of, I guess, that type of relationship with your listener.

How do you feel about Taylor Swift being, like, so emotionally invested in her masters and buying it back? Like, do you feel that or do you feel like she's kind of overly invested in it? Like, where do you stand on that?

I think that it's super smart. If you can do it, you should do it. I mean, we fight for so little and we have so little that we get from it. To be able to own your masters and do whatever you want with them and then collect a residual, a bigger residual for the rest of your life, like, and then eventually later down the road, when she's not the Taylor Swifts of today, go back and sell them to the. You know, to somebody who's willing to pay probably, you know, outrageous amount of money for, like, that's pretty, pretty smart. She's done everything right in terms of all that. If I could do it, I would, but I can't. So here I am.

Who owns the rights or the masters to the rooms? Too cold today.

Drive Thru does.

Drive Thru does.

Yeah. And it's kind of tough to really locate anything. Cause I don't even know where any of that money goes. Like, those streaming royalties, all that stuff. You have millions of streams, but it's like, I don't know who's getting that. We have. No. Nobody has any idea where that stuff goes. And things were very different back then. You know, it was really. However, it was all imported into the current landscape. I have no idea. But it's there. And like I said, if I could do it, I would. But it's just not an option. It's crazy to track down any of that stuff. It got very complicated, like, in the mid-2000s, like, when people. I don't know, like, some businesses rose, some businesses crumbled when it came to the industry side of things. And it's like, a lot of stuff got sort of lost in the mix there. It's a weird time.

So Drive Thru makes all the streaming royalties for the stuff that drivethru owns, and you don't make any of it.

There's all these different, like, YouTube sites that monetize it and whatnot. It's like, I have no. We've no. Yeah. No one has any idea how to collect on it or track it or anything. It's like to. You'd have to jump through so many, you know, hoops just to get there. And by the time you got there, the juice is probably not worth the squeeze. And what you need to actually get there sort of just move on from it, man. Yeah.

I mean, there could be a business there, right? It could be an opportunity there for someone to, like, go through that friction and hassle and headache of, like, tracking it down and, like, building a system around it and, like, connecting it with its rightful owner. If the numbers make sense.

Yeah. Yeah. I think it. It would be a very limited business. You know, it'd be like. If it made sense for, like, a certain number of times, you could do it. But it's not something like, that's the way things are tracked now. That's not going to be able to happen again. So it's just with this, like, small pocket of, like, kids who came from basements and, like, alleys and, like, playing these small venues that turned into this crazy, massive mainstream business, then it got on the rails after that. But it's like, anything from that pocket, sure. Yeah. It's wild.

It's like bands that came up in the 90s and before, like, that's kind of established. Right. But there was, like, this loophole period. There's like, a dead spot between, like, 2000 and 2010. Is that kind of what you're talking about?

That's exactly what we're talking about.

Yeah. We switch from records to streaming, and it's like, who owns what? Who's getting paid what.

Yeah, and so many things were like, handshake deals, too, at that point, because, like, you referenced the 90s, which I think is a great reference, but that was all, like, major label stuff. Like, if you were a band that was popping in the 90s, like, you were a major label, more than likely because that was the only way to do it. And their numbers were always right. But when it came to that 2000, like, people were making labels in their garage and, like, they didn't have their books right. Nothing was like, it was just. It just took off and it was like, hold on for your. Hold on to your, you know, your butts. Here we go. Jackson saying the line, the famous line from. From Jurassic Parks, like, here we go. And I don't think anybody was really ready for that to happen. So that's kind of like where it got shuffled. Lost in the shuffle.

Let's stick on this period for a minute because I have a lot of questions. Like, call it 20, 2010. You can even call like 2007 or 8 if you were to assign a percentage between, like a band that made it, let's say, like My Chemical Romance. Right, because they made it more than most in that era.

Absolutely.

What percentage of that would you attribute to talent and skill? And what percentage of it is marketing? Like, really good marketing and distribution?

I would go like maybe 40% talent and skill. And that's not taking away anything from mikem because they are phenomenal and have written amazing songs. But that period of time, there were so many amazing artists that didn't get the same thing. I think their marketing was phenomenal. The way that they hit Elaine and then were able to capitalize in that lane and just continue to run with it. They saw the window, went through the window and they. The airflow just kept pushing them. So that was a very lightning in a bottle situation. And I think a lot of times when you see these bands that have existed from back then that were maybe in my mind as a competitor back then, I would say friend, but also as like a, you know, a friendly competitor be like, how did this band get so big? Well, partially because we're more savvy. You know, they were more savvy in business. And I mean, one of our best friends starting out was Fall Out Boy. And they were notably as well, one of the biggest of this of the scene. And, you know, we probably played like these venues are talking about the Social with Fallout Boy. And like, you know, we used to tour together all a bunch back then, but they were driven by a different mechanism in the sense that, like, the Pete who ran the band was very savvy. He was very good at business. He was very good at running a very tight ship, whereas we were more like a little bit more artist cannons. Yeah, A little bit more of A loose cannon. And we came from very humble beginnings. So it's like, you know, we didn't have that type of foundation, that type of structure that other people had. Also, we didn't have a manager for a really long time because our label was like, we don't want you to get a manager. It's going to make things really complicated. Hindsight's 20 20, though. Looking back, you're like, oh, wait, no. That actually would have probably got us on track a lot quicker. For them, it made life easier because they could control everything. But for us, it, you know, made us maybe a little bit more chaotic in learning how to run, you know, a business at 19, being like, we're making all this money. I don't know, we don't know what to do with it. We don't even have, like, insurance on the van right now. It's like we're just. We're just doing, you know, and that's like, you know, nobody teaches you that stuff when it happens that quick. So to answer your question, in a really long way, I think a lot of it, when you see successes that are big like that from back then, it's like somebody in the band had the plan, had the idea, and was able to see it a mile ahead and say, no, we're taking that exit and we're doing that. We're doing that because that's going to lead us here to this next thing. It's like, yeah, you didn't have that foresight. You might not have been able to. And then you have. There was like a ton of major labels picking up these bands off of indies for, like, a really cheap price. Like, it's like going through a thrift store and being like, oh, I just found something that I could flip on ebay for. Like, you know, I'll buy it for 15 bucks. And now I'm, you know, flipping it for 150. And that's what a lot of major labels did with a lot of these indie bands.

Can you give me an example of that? Like, there's 84 questions I want to ask you right now. What's an example of, like, an indie band that got flipped? And do you know the unit economics of what that deal looked like?

Well, every deal was a little bit different. So I could say, like, let's say people who were on the Drive Thru roster, there was a couple of them that. That happened to. One of them being something corporate. Right? Remember something. Jack's mannequin.

Andrew McMahon is my fricking hero.

Andrew McMahon's phenomenal. He's a great, great dude.

And Red rocks.

Yeah, that was awesome. We got to play a couple shows on that tour, which is awesome. So we.

Oh, no way.

Yeah, we did. We did a couple of the dates in Chicago and here in New Jersey. But, yeah, it was sick. And, you know, obviously great to catch up. But when they got signed, Drive Thru initially found them, wanted to sign them to Drive Thru. Right. And they were always branded as a Drive Thru brand for the cred, for, like, the indie cred. But in the back end of things, MCA owned Drive Thru. They owned a portion of Drive Thru. They, like, bought into the company, but in that contract stated that they would be able to upstream a band whenever they wanted to. Drive Thru would get a finder's fee of like 50k or something like that. And then.

Pick of the litter.

Exactly. And then.

Yeah.

And then, you know, when they did that with something corporate, they pretty much Drive Thru brought him in. And then MCA was pretty much like, I think we got you already. So they, like, they took it and as the band. Yeah, yeah. And so, like, for the band, whatever they initially did with Drive Thru would ultimately end up being their contract, but they would renegotiate when it came to, you know, when it came time to make that, you know, whatever next steps with MCA at the time. So it was like, when we signed our contract, it was similar. It was like, MCA really owns this, but you're under drive through, so unless MCA wants to come in and say you're ours now, you are working under this current contract, which is X Amount for record one, X Amount for record two, X Amount for record three. I mean, our first contract was insane. It was six albums with, like nine options, which is your entire career. Yeah. So it was it. Ultimately I had to end up buying out of it to leave the deal and go somewhere else. But so that would happen across the board with a lot of these bands. We could use a couple more examples. Newfound glory started out the same way they started on Drive Thru. MCA came and got them. Census fail, same situation. And then their deals would get renegotiated based on what MCA projected. They could potentially, you know, get out of that, like, if they were going to be a radio band, if they could work it in that way. So all of these deals were similar, but the money or the return on what that investment would be would always be different because again, you're taking a really unsure thing and saying, all right, we're going to try and do something with this. And if it doesn't work out, we're going to be able to shelf it forever. So there's a lot of those bands that, that happened to Copeland was one of my favorite bands I loved, still love them. And they were on an indie label. They got, they did a record on a. A major, they got a great budget to do it, they got to make the record they wanted. But at the end of the day these things are heavily structured on back end. You don't really get. If you sign a million dollar record contract, it's not that they're going to hand you a million dollars the next day. It's like this is encompass everything.

Yeah. The value of the whole contract.

Yeah. This is what goes into making it. This is what goes into the marketing, all, everything. So you know, at the end of the day they put out this record on a major label and maybe it didn't perform up to what the major thought. So then they can just be like, all right, well we're just going to sit on you for the next X amount of time until we decide we figured out what we want to do. You might get dropped and you might, but you're definitely not making a record. So it's a really complicated thing.

There's a huge power imbalance and you guys are 19, super stoked to see any bit of money. And they like incentives drive everything. And it's not that Drive Thru or MCA are bad people, they're just driven by incentives. Like all of us are. Right. And like what a good deal for mca. Like Drive Thru probably needed the investment and MCA is like there's this little clause, I'm going to call it the pick of the litter clause. And basically anyone good that you get we're going to legally steal from you and profit off of. So you'll never really have anyone that good. You'll just have a bunch of middle of the pack guys.

Yeah. And you just hit it on the head 100%. Yeah. And I love that you said how you stated that too is like really smart. Yeah. It seems like a power imbalance but at the end, at the end of the day, they're not evil for doing what they're doing. They're running, they're running their business and they're good at it. You know, we as musicians and artists, especially in this business, you'll see it's like a lot of like talk a lot of like this is the bad guy. But if I was the business, we would all want to do the same thing. Right. Not take advantage of anybody but Capitalize where you can. And it's like, creates a new environment. Yeah, for sure.

Did you see that Netflix documentary Dirty Pop?

No.

Oh, you got to see it. It's about the guy who created, you know, Backstreet Boys at nc. Yeah, he put them together and the whole, you know, documentaries can convince anyone of anything. I've fallen guilty to it. And the whole thing is framed like was named Luke Perlman or Lou Perlman, something how he's just like this big, bad, evil guy because they. He forced, you know, Justin Timberlake and all these guys to sign these contracts that were. But like, he was flying them around in private jets. They were living the life. He paid for all their albums. They were touring the world. And like, he made them. He made them. And so I'm like, I look at everything with a bit of nuance and I'm just like, yeah, yeah, he probably did some shady things because these kids were 17. But like, I don't know. He also made them, you know, like.

Yeah.

So look.

Yeah, you can take that any way you want, really. And I have to agree. And, you know, I think you look at just how people will judge anything when it comes to art and we, you know, you brought up Taylor Swift a little bit earlier, but it's like I've been seeing since this record came out last week, you go open up any social media and it's like just people giving their expert opinion on why it's an awful album and how bad it is. But wait a second, here's a song I wrote about it. Listen to my song. Like, what are you. What are you even doing right now? You know, so it's like, it's insane how people will take something and not realize how much of a hypocrite they're being. When you're willing to judge and criticize somebody, but then trying to capitalize off of what they just did for your own benefit, it's mind blowing.

What did these contracts look like back in the day? Like, how much cash up front? How much guaranteed versus not guaranteed? What is, like the percentage look over time.

Yes. So the way the standard contract was that a bunch of the bands in my era at least signed when you first started, or the first one that they would send you would be like, you're going to make an ep, which is a shorter version of a, you know, an album. Traditional full length will be like 12 songs, 10 to 12 songs. But you're going to make an EP, which is going to be at least six songs. And that EP is going to be say we're going to give you $11,000 to make the episode and that covers.

Your cost or that goes in your.

Pocket, that would cover just the cost of making the album. You're living while you're making the album. So if it takes you a month to record a six song ep, you're going to be in the studio, you're going to have that's going to cover your hotel, your food, the what it costs to make it. And that would be, you know, right then, then you have certain things that exist in the contract as well. Like if you hit this point, you sell this many records for LP2 or LP1 you're going to get 25,000, LP2 you're going to get 50. When we did the, the Mother, the Mechanic and the Path, which is a triple disc album, that was, I believe we were contracted for like 75,000 for that album. But they ended up paying 150 just because they, you know, they believed in it. So it was like as big and bad as you want to say a lot of things are, they still ended up taking more of a risk because you know, they saw the potential that was, that was in it as well. So that album, you know, we had to live somewhere for, for three months making it as well as hire a bunch of musicians, hire, you know, rent out the studio, like book out the studio for three months solid. So out of that 150, what you pocket is pretty much zero. And everything goes into the making of the album. If it were today, I mean I'd be like, yeah, I'm gonna make 98 of it right here where I'm sitting with all these guitars and instruments around me and you know it's gonna cost us a fraction of that. But back then you didn't have those things. You know, it's like just to record, to tape. A lot of people don't realize to record, to tape 2 inch tape, which is like, you know, that went out of style in the the mid 2000s. But a reel to reel tape was like, like $250 just for like an eight minute section of tape. So like you had to have like a ton of them and that adds up quickly when you're you know, working for that type of, off of that type of budget anyway.

So the money they give you up front, you don't really make anything off that. That's to like produce the album.

Yes.

What are you making on the album? Sales, like 15, 20%.

That is all coming off of how fast the company recoups so in the recouping in the numbers of, you know, you get, you'll get a mechanical royalty, that's going to be a very small percentage. It's all going to be different. I don't remember exactly what ours was at that point. If you sold the album for 14.99 in stores, X amount $8 went to, you know, the label. The, you know, the rest of it went through distribution store, whatever, you would probably walk away with like, you know, a dollar or something like that. You or your band, like the band, the band at that point, it wasn't like anything great. It wasn't anything like you made your money touring and in merch. So that was where we made most of our, you know, money back then.

Now is that a buck to the band after their, their upfront costs were recouped or before?

That is a very tricky question because I'll tell you again, the books were easily cooked at that point. You know, so it's like tracking.

Like you're not asking for audited financials as a 19 year old.

Right, right. And it's, it's very different how it was tracked. So like if you sold records on let's, let's say like if you're talking to Best Buy. Yeah, they're going to buy a certain amount. Okay, great. If it's going to go on the end cap of Best Buy, though, that's going to complicate things because it costs money to be on the end cap. So based on how long you're on, the end cap is going to see a different, like you're going to get a different percentage. So there's all sorts of things that are going to complicate it like that. But I'll use a very specific metric here. If you're on the road, when you had to account for sales, you pretty much had to write it down on a piece of paper. What you sold that night, somebody from the venue would sign it. You would then fax that over to the, whatever it was called. I forget the name of the, the company that was like for, you know, doing all those, you know, keeping track.

Nielsen.

Nielsen. There you go. Yes, you have to, you'd have to send it there and then that would then go to. However, the label would factor that into their recouping and what they've recouped on everything. Not like I believe that technically there's albums that we've made from back then and based off of how easy it was to move around numbers, you know, there's probably things that were not recouped on back from 25 years ago. I mean, which realistically we probably are because nobody knows where the streaming money goes at this point. Like, it's. It's super complex. But back then, you would either hide numbers or inflate numbers trying to work in your favor in any way that you possibly could.

So if some, like, groupie on tour fudges the numbers because they want your ratings to look better like, and they do it every night for 100 tour stops in a row, then Nielsen's reporting that, yes, it's just some handwritten note that was faxed.

Yes, yes. And it's. People did that. People did that. They didn't realize that. Okay, well, that in the long run is going to end up biting you. This money that you're saying you have to turn this money in somewhere because you owe for those records. They're not. Just because they're yours or you're the artist doesn't mean they're yours. This is this physical copy. You don't own that. You own the idea.

Yeah.

But you don't own that. So, like, you then have to pay the record company for those. So if you're fudging the numbers, you're going to lose money because they're going to come looking at a check or they're looking to you for a check, or they're going to add it to your recouping statement, which you're never going to climb out of because there's a mysterious 10,000 records that are sold. So it's. It was tough to make money on records back then.

So really, if you sign a deal, you're hoping that they can market you, they can distribute your stuff. You're not gonna really make money on the deal or on the albums. You're gonna make money on your merch and on your touring.

Yeah.

Most of the time, hopefully you have a higher chance of hitting scale with the album and of just getting your costs covered. Yeah, theoretically.

Yeah. Yeah, hopefully. And this is like, you know, a little bit dated. Obviously. This is. Back then and now. Things are very, very different than they were at that point. Every deal is structured differently now. You're not gonna come across a record deal that's like six albums long, that's just doesn't exist anymore. So those financial tiers are also outdated. Like, you've probably noticed. Like, most people release singles now. It's like pretty much just singles. It's just a different way of doing things. And Most deals are 50, 50 splits at this point because Labels are putting forth less marketing money because they know that chances are nothing, social media happen. Yeah, yeah.

And the artists can market themselves easier than ever before.

Right, right.

They can. Doesn't mean they will.

Yeah, it doesn't mean they will. It doesn't mean they're gonna be good at it or people are gonna care at all.

Yeah. So, I mean, back in the day you had to have street teams. Like I remember getting like packets full of stickers and albums and just my room was littered with them. Like, did you guys do that much?

Yeah, absolutely. And that was one of the big things that got. Got these types of bands off the ground. And today is very different because people's attention spans are so short. So when it comes to music specifically, that's why I think everything sort of shifted in this way because it was really important to have that connection back then. Now it's like, how can I be most viral most quickly with the least amount of effort and resources spent? It's a total different game. You have to be very, very social media savvy.

Did you hear the story about how little Nas X like growth hacked Old Town Road?

No.

He starts the song with the chorus. Who does that?

Right, right.

And the length of the song is so short that like, I don't remember how it works, but in order to get paid for a stream, it has to be like 30 seconds. He engineered the song so when it loops, you don't realize it's looping because the chorus comes in again. So he'd basically get paid twice for every stream because it was so short. Like people are expecting a three and a half minute song. It's a two minute song. The chorus is at the beginning. So he got paid twice for every stream, basically.

That's wild. That's why.

And it was like tick tock. It was like TikTok ified because it was so short, it was so catchy. It was like brain rot almost. And it went massively viral, man.

But it's marketing, right? Marketing is nuts. And like, you know, being that we're talking about this transition from early 2000 to now, I think that I should throw this in there. Like, especially when it comes to, like labels and, you know, making money in bands. Back then, like one of the big things that I always, you know, will bring streaming into the mix, like I always was against artists promoting back then it was Napster or Limewire. But there was this thing that happened and I remember very clearly. We were like, I was. We were on main stage, Warped Tour one year and like getting ready to play. There's other bands on other stage and you could hear what's happening. But you're standing there side stage because in three minutes, as soon as they're done, you go on and you hear bands say on the microphone in front of thousands of people, hey, we don't think you should have to pay for music. Go, go to Limewire and just down right, just download our stuff. Now, I want to say the positive of this is not what people think it is because a lot of people would think like, oh, yeah, free art, you know. No, the positive is you just rallied like 5,000 people to think that, you know, you've. You made them think that you were cool and they're automatically now going to go buy a shirt or something. But it's really like a mind trick, you know, because nobody really thinks it should be free because now every artist is crying about it. But back then it was like, do it. Because if I jump on the wagon of, let's do this, let's make this free, I'm going to get a bunch of people to rush in real quick. But then that doesn't last. It's not sustainable. So what happens is the next time you go to make a record, the labels, like, your album didn't sell, so we're not gonna pay for this one. And then you're like, oh, labels are evil because they want all the money.

Yeah.

And you create this really weird cycle. And that was a thing that happened all across the board. So everything got really confused. And then you saw, you know, people jump into that whole mindset of, you know, what you just referenced, like in the first 15 seconds, if the listener's not hooked, forget about it. And songs became more of that as opposed to, let's create a moment that somebody could sink into for the rest of their life. Let's like now just get something that's going to hook somebody real quick because that.007 cents that I'm going to get off of that stream is all that really matters. Because that's what we, that's what we fight for. I want to remind you that the economics of that today are every stream is pretty much only 0.007 cents.

Isn't it crazy, the push pull between like the depth of a song and like the longevity of it? You know who Tim Robinson is?

The comedian?

Yeah, he's okay.

I'm awesome.

Mega fan, mega fan. So with him, it's like some of his stuff is just so weird and absurdist and you're like, What? But then you see it for, like, the third time, and it's the funniest thing ever. And the 30th time, it's even funnier. And then you see, like, Adam Sandler. And the first time you laugh. And the third time, it's like, yeah, it's kind of juvenile, right? And, like, I relate this to brand new. Like, some of the brand new, like, newer stuff is, like, so weird. And, like, huh. And then it's like, I listen to the lyrics and, like, I really listen to them, and it's like, this is beautiful. This is art. Like, this song will never get old. Whereas if I listen to, like, no offense to Fall Out Boy, Fall Out Boy or something, it's like, oh, it's so catchy. And then it's like, I'm done. Do you have any thoughts on that? Like, the depth of a song or, like, how lyrics go into the depth of a song and, like, really writing for, like, the love of it and not just, like, to make something catchy and addicting?

Yeah. I think that's a really, you know, big box you just opened in terms of, like, art is here to serve everybody. For a different purpose, right? For a different. Like, somebody has. Some people have the capacity at all times to listen to something really depthful. Some people don't have the capacity to do that, so they need something to, like. I've always believed that my purpose in all of this and how I've always pushed forward in my music is to connect with someone and be some type of a light in a dark time. That's why all of my stuff always has that theme to it. It's tough, but you're going to get through it.

Yeah.

And that's what it means to me. So it's like, sometimes that doesn't resonate with people who want to be like, yo, I'm looking to go out tonight and hit the club. It's not gonna. It's just not gonna hit there. So it's a really hard thing to define what either of those things. Either of those things mean. I think Fall Out Boy was great for a lot of people in the sense that, you know, it helped them find a part of themselves that mainstream that wasn't as mainstream as a. Who was a pop group back then, you know, like a Rihanna or something. And that allowed them to, you know, not have to be in a. Maybe I'm trying to think of another, like, male pop group so I could compare them a little better. Cause Rihanna slap. She's awesome. I was Just listening. She's. She's so good. But like, the Fray or something like that. Like, the Fray had huge hits at the same time as Fall Out Boy did, but it was two different things, you know, The Fray maybe had more introspective, like, in depth in their lyrics, but was a pop, like, dude band that was like, very, like, college y. Whereas Fall Out Boy would appeal to a similar person, but be a little bit more edgy and allow them to be like, you know, you don't have to be, like, sad while listening to it. So it's like, yeah, yeah. I always look at that. There's a purpose for all of it. As long as it's done with the intention to serve someone in that way, I tend to lose. Well, I see things that are intentionally crafted to, you know, not for the service of someone else, but to be like a. How can I just get the most out of it? Which is where sort of we are right now, like, with the creation of all the AI bands that are coming out and, like, just how that's affecting songwriting, music, all of it in general. It's like, I don't think anybody really realizes what's about to happen, and it's terrifying, you know?

Well, I feel like the pendulum just swings, though. Like, the more the AI music there is, like, the more that your stuff is going to be even more valuable because it'll be that much different, you.

Know, But a value that's unquantifiable in, like, terms of, like, it's going to be monitored. Yeah. Like a monetary sense. And that's going to be. That's not going to. Simply Just not like you could have care, but it's not going to allow me to continue to do it. Like, I'm going to be like, all right, well, I'm going to be a truck driver or something. Because for the past 30 years, I've only been perfecting one skill. And that skill has been connecting with people and trying to make something that can be a part of their soul. When in.

Yeah.

Now that I'm kind of replaceable in a different way, it's like, all right, so what else can I do? Because even though it's more valuable in terms of a human made it, but it's not necessarily monetarily value valuable, which doesn't really allow me to continue the pursuit.

It's funny you say, like, your lyrics are often about, like, it sucks, but it's gonna get better. I feel like that's like my whole ethos as well. Like, when I go to church and, like, I teach Sunday school. Like, that's kind of. I always get back to that. Like, sometimes it sucks. Always. It gets better, right? Yeah, it sucks. Sometimes it gets better when I talk about business. Like, my whole ethos to business is, like, business is freaking hard, but it's awesome and it will work out like, it's worth it. It's worth being hard. I think one of your most underrated songs is the sand on 20.

Wow.

I love that song.

That's awesome.

Like, number six, I think, right?

Something.

Because it's like. It's like at the end of it, you're just, like, talking about, like, you're, like, you're coming. What are the lyrics? Like, you're coming back.

Like, that's one of those. Like, I love it. Yeah, that's it. I forgot exactly how it went, but that's one of those that no one has ever said that before. You're the first person that maybe has really said that. Yeah. Yeah. That was like, an underdog song for sure.

Is there a story behind that song?

I'm trying to recall how it goes, because a lot of times, unfortunately, you know, you put all this work into something and it's like, well, you can't really work it into a set because it's not one of the popular songs, so you never play it and you never listen to it again.

All right, I want to pause here just for a second to tell you why I've used beehive for two years and I just actually sent my 100th newsletter edition. I love Beehive, and you see emails different from other platforms because social media platforms own your audience. In fact, YouTube just banned me for a week because they didn't like one of my videos, even though it was perfectly compliant. If Instagram changes their algorithm, your reach tanks. Same with TikTok, Facebook, and anything else you're building on rented land. But with Beehive, I own my list. I own my audience. I'm not at the mercy of some nameless, faceless algorithm. Every time I hit send, they just get my emails. And Beehive makes this simple. Growth tools, monetization, and a free website. And I can't get enough of their analytics. And the data I get from Beehive, this is data that I can actually use and share with potential sponsors. It's everything you need in one platform. The smartest creators out there are the ones that own their own audience. So go to beehive.com Chris to get 30% off your first three months. That's B E E H I I V.com Chris and start building something you actually own.

I probably have a thousand songs that are like that, but yeah, it's always being down, always being beat down, you know, but like, still looking up. Like I referenced looking at like Orion, like the stars. Like, you know, it's like you're constantly reaching for that, but I'm buried in all of this.

But then the outro, it never stopped me before. I'll never hide again I'm standing right at the door I'm going to fight my way back. Like I listen to that as I'm like mowing the lawn, acting like my whole family just died. Like my life is great, like, objectively. But I'm like, yeah, I'm good to make it. Like, everything's fine. It just makes me feel something, you know, that's.

That's what it's about. That's awesome. I. I'm so happy right now that you brought that up. That's. That's awesome. It really is.

That whole album, 20 is just the album. I don't know if that's like one of your more popular, less popular ones, but it's just full of bangers, man. There's no filler in 20.

That was our like just 20 year anniversary album. We just took a bunch of B sides and put them on that and then as well as, you know, made a few new ones. But yeah, we like had our collection of songs that never got released and we were like, well, might as well throw. Throw it on this. And it's like, it was a really fun to make. It was. It was awesome to go down memory lane and whatnot.

Did it do well, like, compared to other albums in that time frame?

Some of the songs did because do well now is like, we sold a lot of vinyl, which is great and I guess that's one of the metrics that you could use right now. But as album as a whole, it's like really, you look as an artist, you look to get on a playlist. Like, that's the, the Mecca.

Okay.

You have to get on a playlist, but they don't put the whole album on. They put one song on.

Yeah.

So it's like a couple of the songs stream really well. It's hard to say if the album did well because it's not tracked in a similar. In a similar way. Our last album that like, did well would be like from 2013 when people still bought full album. So it was like that one charted on like Billboard Top 200. But like, that was because people bought albums. So like, it's like, how can we roll this out to make as many streams as possible so that the day that it comes out, you've immersed this number that will all get counted towards album sales. So that's why you see a bunch of. If you're noticing bands putting out singles, single singles, and then a whole album comes out, it's like in effort to make that album chart. Well, because it's like, I don't know the exact number, but it's a lot of streams equate to one like sale.

This is just a side note, but we'll be listening to you guys and ever so sweet where you say the line, I don't want you to love me anymore. What song is that? Or is that Baby Blue?

That's Baby Blue. That's the one, baby. The Get Up Kids thing. Yeah.

Oh, okay. Was that the line?

That's the line. Yeah.

That's the line from the Get Up Kids. I didn't realize that.

Yeah, that's the line.

That's so funny. So every time that comes on, I pause it and I tell my kids, I'm like, guys, you know, I love emo. Emo is emo. It's usually like, I don't love you, you don't love me. This, this line takes emo to the next level. I don't want you telling me anymore. I always give my kids a preamble. They just roll their eyes.

That's funny.

Oh, man, that's funny. I didn't realize that I was gonna ask you, like, what was the line? But I didn't know that was. I didn't know you had any, like, old beef with them.

It's not like we've. We've squashed the beef. There's no more beef. But like, yeah, that's. Well, I appreciate that. I present that's a Funny story. I like it.

Yeah. You ever listen to Spanish love songs?

Yes, yes, I have. Yeah.

I really like their album. I forget what the name of it is, but like a hundred percent of their lyrics are so negative. Like it's the opposite of your vibe, right? It's like my parents got divorced, they lost their house, like every song. And like, I love it, but like, I don't. Like, do you think, like, I just feel like that becomes a self fulfilling prophecy or confirmation bias. You sing about these terrible things and like your life just gets more terrible because that's all you see, that's all you notice.

Did you.

Did you ever experience that? Like Singing about sad stuff or, like, and just having a realization of, like, maybe I should be more optimistic because this is just making me more sad.

Well, I've always been very optimistic. I'm like, people get annoyed and think that I'm, like, joking and sarcastic half the time because I'm like, no, it's not bad. Everything's fine. And, like, why are you. Like, this is not a time to be joking. And I'm like, I'm being serious. Like, I've always been very optimistic. So when it comes to, like, I have got lost in the sauce before, though, like, sometimes making an album where I'll be trying to get. Make it. Allow the flow to happen and allow it to come out and burying yourself in this. I went a little bit crazy during the creation of one of them, and it was like, you know, you're trying to connect with this story that you're. That you're putting out there, and you're really trying to be as, like, in depth as possible and almost like, living it in a way. And it makes you. You can get lost in it. And especially if you're an artist that. If you're someone who, let's say, like, very openly has a stance, right? You. Not only that's part of your marketing, that's part of your everything that you have to be. You have to attach a belief to your art and your business, and you have to bring that everywhere with you. Regardless of if behind closed doors, I'm talking to you and you let something slip or whatever, you publicly have to be what you put out there. Because we're attaching that level of authenticity to what we think an artist is, and that makes us fall in love with them more. If they believe in the same thing that we believe in, then we're walking together holding this flag. I have seen a lot of people get lost in that.

This is a dumb example of that. But it's like Guy Fieri. It's like, do you think he ever wakes up and he's like, I don't want to put gel in my hair today. I don't want to bleach my hair anymore. I hate that I'm in this. I hate my life.

I don't think. I don't think Chicken Guy ever says that. Okay. I think he's pumped.

Example. Or like, my couple grown man's, like, I don't really want to wear eyeliner today. Like, I know this is my shtick, but I've changed. Like, I've changed as a person. And, like, how do you do that when that's your whole brand, you know?

Yeah. And I think, like, the big people, like, the big, big ones. Like, if you get to that level and you realize, wait, there's 50,000 people in this stadium right now singing my songs. Like, I'll put it on. I'll do it. Yeah, I'll do it.

Yeah.

Because it's like that energy is. You can't come close to that with. With anything. Like, I mean, I do it, like, to a smaller scale.

Let's talk about this. I wanted to ask you about this. So keep going with that.

It's a magic that is undefinable, and that's like, you know, I'll reference, like, your purpose in doing it or what my reason, you know, like, that connection with people, like, that is something that is just, you see fading more and more with the current landscape of where things are going. And that's probably one of the things I'm most frustrated with one and most scared of is losing that because we are devaluing what that is. But anyway, that feeling of saying, like, I don't know if I feel like doing this. I can't really. But then as soon as you step on stage and there's a thousand people there that are so excited, they know every word. They know every word, and they are like, you feel their energy. It's like you're floating, you know, It's a feeling that you can't really. It's hard to even define, but, like, I can't imagine it to the level of like. Like you're saying, like, a mike ham. Like, dude, when you get on stage and you're in a, you know, Citizens bank park in front of 45,000 people, that feeling of, like, oh, my God, like, I doubt that that ever you. Why would you shut that off?

Does that ever get old? Like on day 150 of the tour?

No. The thing that gets touring is monotonous and sad and lonely, you know, with people, but it's very, very lonely. That's what gets hard. Those. That hour on stage, though, that never gets old. Unless you're, like, throwing every show away. Like, you're getting absolutely wasted and, you know, not remembering what's happening then. Then, sure, if you're not present, it can definitely get old because, you know, and we've all, like. I've had spells where it's like, you know, I'm really depressed and, you know, for a string of shows, and it's like, you know, you hit that lull and it's. If you lose yourself in it on this sad, dark artist sky. Like, you know, if you, if you wear that over you and that's how you, you know, that's where you are existing. Yeah, it can get very, very dull. Usually if you're present that our hour will always be like the most magical time. So, yeah, that's great. The rest of it gets kind of. Can get kind of rough. For sure.

Yeah.

And that's why people turn to substance.

And that's what I was gonna ask. Are they turning to substances to replicate that on stage feeling when they're off stage or just because they're sad and lonely and tired?

All of the above. And there's no security in this business. There's no, like, I guess you're just an independent contractor with a contract that's always running shorter every single day. So, like your contract's about to expire every single time you get off stage. So tomorrow you could say something or where the climate we're in right now, someone else could say something that you did or you didn't do, or just accuse you of thinking or looking or offending or whatever. And you lose everything that you've built. So many people are so scared of that right now that you just sit by yourself. You're like, I'm not going to put myself in any danger. I'm going to sit by myself and just have a bunch of drinks and then the next thing you know, I'll wake up tomorrow feeling hungover and do it again. Or. I mean, there's a whole lot of different, A whole lot of different reasons. I don't think a lot of it is trying to replicate the feeling on stage because it's. You can't replicate that. But I think it's coping with the real fears that are going on. And that's the thing, like, the mental health of, you know, people in that position is like, you know, something that, like a lot, not a ton of people really talk about because you're living your dream. So it's always like, be grateful for what you have. But at the end of the day, you don't realize. Like, dude, yeah, it's a. I'm doing it. But it's not like what you think. It's not like we're not all Taylor Swift level right now. Like, I can't just say, well, I'm never going to work again and be okay. Like, I don't have any other skills when it comes to, you know, I can't go apply for a job somewhere with a Automatic pension and 401k and the amount of money that I'm going to need to make to support my family like I have to, I can't do that. I didn't go to college. I'm not like, you know, that's not my position in life right now. So it's like, yeah, there's a lot of things that come with that.

A lot of what you're describing is entrepreneurship. You're starting a business, you're failing, you're failing publicly, you're growing, it's depressing, it's exciting. You're an entrepreneur like as pure as they get, just in a different niche, right?

Yep.

Do you see yourself as such?

Absolutely. Yeah. I've always done like, I dabble in a bit of everything. I've always taken a little bit of that entrepreneurial spirit with me everywhere. So it's like I have my hand in a lot of different things as far as business goes. But the band and learning business through this vessel, really fine tuned that. Because you're not just paying attention to, you know, what you want or what's going to work for your direct customer because you're a customer, exists everywhere and is every different type of person and is like, you know, you're moving with societal trends without even realizing. It's like a very your focus on all of that for sure. So I've always attached myself to that. I've always identified with the entrepreneurial mindset and it's been like a, you know, huge help for sure.

Well, I just now made a connection as you were talking about like being a creator as well. Like every time I think like, should I publish this? Should I do this? Like if I would like it, then they would like it because my audience is a representation of me and I'm thinking of you as like a 19 year old. You're looking out at a thousand 19 year olds that probably like mostly white kids that are 19, right. And now you're, you know, 30, 40 something, looking out as you play and it's like you're seeing a bunch of people like you. You know, if I'm still publishing, like if I'm still talking about business ideas and podcasting when I'm 60 is going to be a bunch of 60 year olds listening to me. You know what is like if you play in front of a thousand people, $50 tickets, you've got an opener and another band. What are the unit economics of that look like? Let's say it's sold out, show thousand people, $50 tickets, it's going to be.

A little different because every venue is going to be, you know, you can have a ,thousand cap room, two of them across the street, and you're going to get a different outcome at that. So like, let's say average, like if there's a $50 ticket, I mean you're going to have obviously the room rental, the staffing, all that stuff. What it's going to, what's going to be your guaranteed rate for showing up, which might be for a thousand cap room, you know, maybe five to $8,000. And then you're going potentially, potentially. It's like I said, it's all different, maybe less than that, but that's going to be like your package rate potentially. Let's just for easy math, let's just say eight, right. So out of that you've got everybody that works for you. You've got the rest of the package, meaning your support. And then you've got, you got to factor in merch sales on that. So if you're doing like two to five dollars ahead, you know, you've potentially got like another walking out the door with another, you know, two to $5,000 on top of that. But you're also paying merch rates, heavy merch rates to venues. They're like very, very expensive a lot of times.

So you, you got to pay the venues for merch stuff.

Yeah, there's merch rates that, that every venue takes. So it's like some of them are a lot more strict where they'll have somebody watching every sale. So.

Interesting.

And tallying and tallying it.

Like a few bucks per shirt or something.

Yeah, it's usually like 10 to 15% on soft goods, which ends up being.

I had no idea.

Yeah, that ends up being a lot. Sometimes it's 20. It really depends. It's all different. If it's a venue sells, it's going to be more expensive as well. So if you go to a venue and you see someone who works at the venue selling the merchant, they're probably making more, they're, they're charging more for what they're going to be able to take from that. It's really tough. Some nights you will walk out of there having like a check back that's like very miserable to cut back because sometimes, like I said, it can range from 10 to 20%. That feels like if you're doing like hundreds, it's whatever. It's like, you know, it's, it's fine. But if you're doing thousands, obviously it adds up quickly. And then the guarantee, like I said, will, let's say that 8,000. You've. You owe a thousand dollars to each support. So now you have 6,000 out of that 6,000. You have everybody working on your staff that is on the touring party. Then if you have a bus, that's an extra, you know, fifteen hundred dollars a day. If you have. If you're getting. Hotels basically going to end up being the same, just spread through hotel rooms. So it adds up really quickly is my point here. So at the end of it, there's a lot of different things that come out of it. You might walk with like, you know, maybe 3,000 from that show, maybe less.

The whole band.

The whole band, yeah.

And then you split four or five ways, right.

But you're doing like a lot of shows. So if you're doing like 40 shows on the run, then it looks a little bit better. Plus there's going to be some nights where it's like you got to average it all out.

Really.

It's. It's harder to tour now than it was because, you know, things are so much more expensive. If you want to make a high quality shirt, people now more than ever care about what they're putting on their skin, what's on their body. You can't just get like a Hanes shirt that's going to be like, you know, you're going to have great, great margins on that. But now you're looking at like out of that money that you made from the merch sales, let's say it was, you know, five after, you know, your what, what you paid out to the venue and whatnot, you now owe for the merch company to have made it. So it's like you have to cut those costs as well. So it's really like, it's kind of tough to have like a. This is what it specifically is going to look like because every single night is different in that respect. But an average thousand cap room, if you do that simple, like, okay, 8,000 out of that, you maybe have another 5,000 in merch, but you owe all these things on that, so you end up walking potentially, let's call it with 5,000 after you've paid back the merch debt, you've paid everything and then you've paid your crew and all of that, and now you can start stacking that up and scaling it through a whole tour.

So call it a thousand bucks per band member.

Yeah, call it something like that. At that level.

Yeah, at that level.

At that level. Yeah. That, you know, drastically can, inflate if the shows sell out, a lot of like, you get a standard guarantee and then after that you have like what is like a walkout bonus. So pretty much, if you like, you know, packing the room out, you're going to get back end on the show as well. Like you're going to hit the split point and where you'll have like a split with the, with the venue and be able to make a little bit more on that. But you know, you got to be doing well too to make that happen. And as you scale up and bigger rooms, guarantees get higher and higher.

Do you split everything equally with your bandmates?

For us right now, it is a very unique scenario in the sense that like in back in the day when we were all touring, that's how we worked touring. It worked in that way. But now being that everybody is like doing their own things, it's like not everybody can source. So it's like we have hired people that get paid no matter what. So whether you're successful or not, they're getting what they signed on for. So it's a lot of like, if you're hiring this person for this job, if they're filling in on guitar or filling in on whatever, they're getting what they are contracted for. So it's like, it's a little bit different in the sense of how, it's how the breakdown works out. But traditionally, like, you know, when we were, I guess, in that first like phase of like taking off, it was like, yeah, if we're, we walk away from a tour with, you know, whatever 80,000 or 100,000, like we're going to split that or whatever may have been at that point. And there are times like, where it's like, trust me, I know the numbers that I got, I gave out are very conservative. But there are times you can do really, really well and where you far exceed all of that stuff where you instead of thinking, you know, you're not doing two to $5 ahead, you're doing $10 ahead on merch, you're doing like numbers that are far exceeding. But it's like that stuff is like as hard to predict as the weather, how people are going to react. And it's an interesting thing to try and dive into.

But do you get sick of playing the same songs?

Nah. Really? I don't get sick. No, I don't get sick of playing the same song. I think like, if people are excited and having a good time, that's really like what matters. Like if that date night out is helping Them create a stronger bond or. Yeah, yeah, like, hey, that's me doing my part.

Are you an introvert?

I would say so, yeah.

How does that play into it? Is it weird like. Cause that's kind of an extroverted thing to have to do or do you just kind of go into a different zone when you're on stage?

Yeah, it's a different mechanism I think. Cause you're not like having a one on one conversation, trying to carry it with your charm. You're trying to like. It's different when you walk on stage. You're like one of the coolest people in the room by default. So it doesn't, it doesn't matter. I don't know. Like, I think like I've dealt with being. I was an introvert heavily for a long time and now I'm like, I don't know where I fall because now I do like, you know, TV stuff as well. It's like it, it's all easier for me to like exist. But yeah, I think at, at points for sure, I'm very introverted.

Yeah, so am I. I can fake it though, but when I fake it, it makes me so exhausted.

It's tiring. It is, it is. I know that feeling is hard to explain too.

Are you working in on any, on any cool business stuff right now or any business ideas you want to jam on?

Well, one thing that I think business ideas. Look, first off, let me just say like I did a little bit of dive here into your past episodes. I'm like, dude, there's some really sick business ideas that are out there. Like I said, like I, you know, when we first talked. I send your stuff to my kids all the time. Cause I'm like, you could do this. Especially when it was like a couple, like, I forget what it was. It was a shaved ice, a version of shaved ice or whatever. I'm like, you could do this this summer and crush it. And it was like, you know, all sorts of.

Especially New Jersey.

Like, yeah, oh yeah, sure. Come on now. Yeah, yeah. That's the, that's the way to do it. I think like what I've been really trying to hone in on is what is going to be able to exist that is somewhat sustainable outside of. Because I know that like, I'm probably part of like the, the majority of people here, but I do see a little bit of a doom and gloom when it comes to AI, taking everybody's positions. And I'm like, what can I think of? What can I do? What do I Already do that can somewhat exist in that world. Now what can I do or what can I start or what can I be involved in? That's always going to be a necessity that is not going to be overtaken. So like, you know, we're talking right now about potentially doing, starting a was like a high end sound electrician type company for like specialty type of, you know, running really specialized sound for people's like backyards, pools, all that type of stuff. It's a little bit more exclusive, like a high end type thing. But that is one area that like I know that nobody's going to be able to. We're very far off from a robot being able to come in and do installs on stuff like that. So that's one of the things as far as another one that I really love is this is something I've been doing for a long time now. My grandfather cleaned parking lots, right? He cleaned parking lots for years. That's what he did when he retired. And he did it all throughout, like the back end of his life. And when he passed away in 2020 like he would tell all these crazy stories. So me and my few family members were like, well he's got all these parking lots as a way to stay connected, you know, with his legacy or whatever. Let's just continue doing them. Like we'll divvy them up and we'll, I'll do this, this parking lot on this day. You do that parking lot. You do, you know, whatever. So anyway, twice a week I go out and clean parking lots at like 4am so this morning, left the house 4:30 in the morning, went and cleaned a parking lot. And I'm like, this is that perfect little niche that I was thinking about because what a, what a property manager is willing to pay for you to go and pick up cigarette butts. You could do it in an hour. Each parking lot, you stack them up. It's like, well that is a business. That is something that is kind of interesting and sustainable because it is. They're always going to need that. You're always going to need to have, you know, some type of AI is not going to do that way. No, it's definitely not. And right now like not a lot of people are willing to do that. And it's something that I do to keep me one, like I said, connected with my grandfather. As I'm doing it, I'm like, not only does it do that for me, it scratches that itch, but it also keeps me extremely humble because when you're sitting There, picking up cigarette butts, and people are driving by you, like, throwing one out the car and, like, looking at you with, like, that. Only that look. It's like a kid who's doing something bad, and they know they're doing something bad, but, like, you still have to go clean it up, whatever. It's like, that's why people aren't willing to do it. But at the end of the day, this is something that, like, I talk to my kids about this all the time. Starting this as a job, like, okay, you do one parking lot. Every time you go there, say, it's like you're getting $200 for that. That parking lot. You do 10 of them in a week. As a. As a teenager, like, yeah, you're. You're doing all that. That adds up. And that's, like, not really intense work. You could do it at 4am, you could be done by 9am and then you can go to your other job.

Throw on a podcast.

Exactly. And that's like one of those things that, like, I love that because it's like, I was at one point doing that, Then I would come home, teach a stock market class on, like, basic techniques and whatnot. When it comes to technical analysis, I'm, like, obsessed. I'm a nerd for, like, oh, dude.

There'S so much we gotta talk about for all that.

Then I would go into the studio and I would record and produce bands all day and then come back and do, you know, my family time at night. And it was like, that was my structure for a long time, was like, wake up before the sun, get out there, do parking lot, come back, teach class, then go to the studio and rip apart songs all day and rinse and repeat and then throw other things in there as well. But, like, there's a lot of things that you can do to, like, put it all together. Because as a musician, like, you're saying, like, entrepreneur, you have to be. I've always do a ton of things. Yes. But that's like, that's one of those businesses that I think is. Is super cool. Because it's easy. It's actually kind of fun. You find a lot of weird stuff. You got a lot of great stories to tell. Like, oh, man, I found a whole toilet in the. In a parking lot today. Just sitting there, had to pick it up. One, it's a funny story. But two, it's like, you know, it's really not that. Not that hard. And it's something that can add up if you're looking to just Fill some. Fill some space.

Yeah. And you don't use any, like, equipment for it. You're just doing it by hand?

No, I use a picker, like one of those, like, claw things and like, a trash picker and a bucket maybe sometimes a shovel. That's it.

I'm just picturing a boomer rolling up and throwing a cigarette out at you, just looking at you, and you're like, you should have seen me at the Skate and surf festival. Okay, 3,000 screaming teenager. We went viral on Reddit. Do you know who you're talking to?

And that was yesterday. No, that's a. You know, the things I enjoy about it is, like, sometimes I'll be doing it. It's like, you never know, like, when you're a person who, like, who is hungry and just wants to do things and wants to learn things and wants to excel in your own way, nothing can stop you. I mean, I've always tried to preach that to people. If you have a void, you have to fill it, figure out how to fill it. And when you figure out how to fill it, you're going to be super proud. It's a cool thing.

I like to say, like, you can't be broke and prideful. Like, if you're broke and humble, like, I can help you, I can give you ideas, whatever. If I had to go sell, like, Porta Potties door to door to feed my family, I would absolutely do it, you know?

Yeah.

You can't be prideful or egotistical about it. I love that business, like, parking lot. Like, I'm thinking of all the ways you could grow that, like, you could scrape all the landlords, you could do creative, cold outreach to them. And the more that, like, AI takes off, the more, like, quote unquote, easy AI businesses are going to take off. And the less that, like, entrepreneurial people will care about, like, a parking lot business, like, you'll have even less competition in the future. Right, right.

I think there's a lot there that that can be done with it. Now I have a question for you in regards to all these AI businesses that are starting up and how, like, how you could use it for so. So many different things to start, so many different angles and whatnot. What happens when it's so saturated that, like, is there a point that that happens where the saturation just becomes too dense?

Saturation with what, specifically?

Absolutely everything. Like, in every, like, because right now we're seeing, like, a boom in the sense of, like, oh, anything's possible. Anything and everything is possible at Any given time, do we reach a point where it's like, critical mass? Like, it's just like there's so much automated, self. Automated AI that it's creating other AIs that it's creating other things and creating other businesses. Now, you're not just competing with a person creating AI, you're creating with AIs that are creating AIs that are.

The AIs are talking to each other, they're emailing each other, they're.

Yeah, like, at what point is. Like I said, I nerd out about all this stuff, but if you look at, you know, just unemployment and whatnot, and obviously we missed the past couple marks, but, like, if you look at the steady rise in it and like, how it's. How it's going and the trend that's happening, like it's been since 2022 till now, the slow rise, that is not something that, as we. We've traditionally seen and at least this small incrementally, usually there's a big thing that happens, right. And everything like falls and then, you know, we recover from it. But.

And that's almost safer because it's obvious and you see it coming. This is like a frog in boiling water, right?

Yes, that's exactly what it is. It's. And you're trying to, like, say, oh, well, that's okay, because we're going to have these other jobs, but. And we're going to recover. But we've always had a point to recover too, at this point, if you look at it. And while we're doing all these things, minimizing a human need, we're not going to be able to recover to something because there's not going to be some thing for somebody to go to to make money. You know, how does that work? Like, how does that play into it? But I mean, obviously we're getting. I'm getting off the rails here a little bit. I'm just.

No.

Sinking into my own.

Yeah, I feel like it's an analogy would be. I love to reference the messy middle, Right. So in the 90s and before. And 2010 and after, I guess I should say in the 90s and before, you were either like a wedding singer or your NSync, right. And there's like nothing else. And then from 1999 on, the. This Internet thing happened and now we have a spectrum of musicians, right, that we. That's what we started talking about. And that's the messy middle. And that's like. There's a whole book called the Messy Middle that's where you don't want to be, because it's hard. And, like, what are you? Where do you stand? You know, like, you're almost better off as a wedding singer because you can get paid three grand to go play a wedding, you know, or a thousand bucks, and you don't have this band or whatever. But on the other end of it, like, you could be Taylor Swift and a billionaire. But the messy middle is just where the grind is. I see that here. Like, I'm. I really fear for the American middle class and getting pushed out more and more and more. I think homeownership should be a lot more common than it is. It used to be common. It's becoming increasingly less common. And I look at AI the same way. I don't want to be in the messy middle. I want a business that is either all AI, like, implementing AI agents into other businesses, or, like, just everything AI or just touching grass as a service. Like, yeah, like building podcast studios, like doing, like, cleaning parking lots. Right. But, like, anywhere in the middle, like, being an accountant that's about to be replaced by AI. That scares the crap out of me. Yeah, like, messy middle is messy. It's called messy for a reason. What do you think about that?

I'm with you there. I think that spot, like, that's exactly how. How I feel too. It's, like, very scary, especially for someone who is in the position that I'm in, where you see this business fluctuate. Like, it's so quick how things are changing. It's, like, remarkably quick. And it's already. You're in a business that you can age out of extremely quickly anyway. So it's entertainment. Like, you have to be able to. To continue to reinvent things. But the messy middle, as. As you call it, like, dude, it's very, very messy. It's very hard, and it's like, it's not something that is easy to sustain. So I do love the idea of either being all in on one end or all in on the other, because that's where, you know, that's where you're going to be able to at least have a little bit of peace of mind.

Right? Yeah. Yeah. So I'm building out a podcast studio in my attic right now. And so if you ever start that business, I might need your help.

Yes.

Setting it up. Yeah, I know you're touring. Is the early November going to tour again?

We probably will. Yeah. We have some things that we will announce very soon. We'll at least do a. Do another run. We'll see what happens. But yeah, I'm touring next week I start. So I have a couple of weeks of grinding, grinding hard on that one and then. Yeah, and then home doing that, doing hsn, doing all that stuff. And then maybe in the winter we'll have another little run.

Oh, that's cool, man. You're like me, you got a million different things going on.

Yes.

Hsn, parking lots, stocks, studio, touring. Man, I identify with that.

Sick. Yeah.

Is there anything you'd like to promote that we can leave in, like, anything we could point to in the show notes or whatever?

Yeah, like, I have an album coming out in on Halloween. I'm very excited about that.

Yeah, that's gonna be like Ace Enders.

Or is that Ace Enders as an Ace Enders album? Halloween. I'm excited about it. It's like, I don't know how many more full length albums I'm gonna do in my life. Like, I think, like, obviously the industry is changing. I don't know if there's demand for it or if it even makes sense from a financial standpoint to do that kind of investment. So this, you know, very well could be the last, like body of work like that. And just from where, where I'm at. So, like, I'm excited about it and comes out on Halloween, which I think is also very cool. Yeah, it's going to be a, a fun, a fun time. So that's one thing that I'll say. Check that out if you can. If you can. Yeah.

Is the best way to support that to buy the vinyl?

Yeah.

What's the highest and best use?

That would definitely be it. Buying the vinyl would probably be the best. Vinyl or T shirt or coming to a show. Either one of those things will be the best. I mean, or play it on Spotify. It will probably never reach me, but at least it'll be a cool, you know, a cool thing.

I'll tell you what, I'll buy the vinyl and I'm gonna put, I'll put it right there. I'll advertise it for free. How about that?

Thanks. I'll pay you a residual every time one comes in.

Well, anything else you want to promote.

That'S really it also, you know, like, I mean, just, I think like my message in life has always been keep getting, give it everything. You know, whatever you do, give it everything. It's like, yeah, I would promote more stuff that I am doing, but I just want to promote that idea of just going for it. If you're, if you have something that you want to do or you're unhappy with where you are, just go for it. Take the steps and give it everything that you can. And if it doesn't work out, that's fine. Just keep giving it everything. And it's like, that has been something that I have had on the walls of my studios that I've owned, you know, and people have taken it with them through their life. As simple as it is. It's like, just remind yourself. Like, we live in a world where you can wake up and anything can happen now more than ever, not just for an artist or whatever. Like, I wake up with that. I could say something or do something today that can change my life in the most positive way. And because that's what it is. Like, I could write a song that could positively impact generations of my lineage. But it's like, we live in a world right now where those type of possibilities are out there for everybody. And it's like, just give it everything. Do it. If you. If you want to do it, do it. That's what I'd like to promote.

I love it. I mean, it's back to the messy middle. Like, don't be in the messy middle. No half measures, right? Just go all out.

Yeah, do it, Ace.

You're the man. Thank you. Hey, guys, if you're still listening to this, it's probably because you haven't had a chance to take your AirPods out. You're still mowing the lawn, you're still driving, what have you. If you're still here with me, I would really, really love and appreciate a five star review on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcast. It would mean a lot if you want to go the extra mile. Share this episode with a friend that might have an interest in starting a business. It would mean a ton. Hope you have the best day of your life today.