Clean Money - Make Money & Do Good with Sam Sells

Why were people buying every single apartment complex they could two years ago and every house they could? Because the interest rates were zero. Talk about an incentive to go out and buy stuff. That was a huge incentive.

Welcome to the Next Level Income show, where it's our goal to take your income, your investments and your life to the next level. I'm your host, Chris Larson. If you haven't yet, get a copy of our book for free at our website, nextlevelincome.com. that's www.nextlevelincome.com. just click on the book link and I'll even send you a copy if you put your address in. On today's podcast, we have Sam Sells with Wild Mountain Capital. Sam is a retired US Air Force officer and combat vet who founded Wild mountain capital in 2018 with his hero father. Sam traveled globally with the US Air Force Special ops as an international health specialist and saw poverty and a lack of safe housing while leading complex rehab and development projects worldwide. This motivated Sam to start Wild Mountain to transform neglected, unsafe and mismanaged assets not just into affordable housing, but into housing that is affordable. I'm looking forward to having this conversation with Sam today and sharing his story as well as what he's up to at Wild Mountain today. Sam, good to see you again.

Yeah, great to see you again, Chris. This is a pleasure, always a pleasure speaking with you.

Yeah, I'm excited to, to talk with you today. Share a little bit about what you do with, with our audience here and I know we share a lot of similar passions that we're going to get to discuss today. And I told the audience a little bit in your bio, but maybe you could share a little bit more about your journey to Wild Mountain Capital.

Yeah, sure thing. So I was at the Air Force and but you know, for, you know, for, I don't know, 12, 13 years, I'd been involved in single family residential flip fix and flip kind of homes. Try and do the burr strategy, everything else. Just never could get where I want to go. Plus, I was active duty as a, really as a international health specialist working with foreign militaries, foreign governments, inside special operations, outside special operations, and just had a, you know, incredible time doing that, but got some writing on the wall saying that there was time for the military to was thinking about, you know, exiting me a little bit early because of some health conditions. And I was like, I'm ready to do this yet. So as it so happens, I, you know, started looking, thinking back again to real estate and wanted to do and it just Turned into, you know, I can't. I can't get there through single family homes. So I got into real estate. Talk to my dad, and we started a company, and that's it.

Wow. So it's a family affair, which is awesome. I got.

In fact.

Yes. If you're listening, some people might see you. Hey. Say hi. Say hi to. When you're visiting your dad, that's when it's really cool. This is a cameo right here. I absolutely love this. Pleasure to meet you. Yeah, that's. I think that's a first out of 150. 160 episodes. But I, I love that. We've had. We've had pets, we've had kids, we've had FedEx, but yeah, that's. That's amazing. I, I absolutely love that. Yeah.

Just to be clear, I don't live with my dad. He. He actually just moved into the same neighborhood I did. And so we're. We're over here, him and my other. All business partners, we've just been having a board meeting here at his house. It's nice.

Wonderful. Now, so you work. Your father's part of your team, Sam. And is anybody who else from your family is part of your team as well?

So I have a younger brother who is like Fabio. We tease him all the time. He's very popular with the, you know, interested parties when he's out at, like, mobile home parks and so forth. He's like, leave me alone. And. Yeah, no, he, yeah, so he's our, My brother is our operations guy and my dad runs our construction. So he just comes from that old, you know, set of cloth where guys work their guts out like, you know, work. They build, they know everything and anything to do with any kind of construction. And he's been in construction for 40 years. And so he runs our construction crews and he renovates like three to 400 units a year.

Amazing. I love it. I love it. Doing good work. So, you know, I, there's. There's several topics I want to talk about today, Sam, but really, we were talking before the show about one of the projects that we're doing in, in the city of Houston. And one of the, One of the challenges we have in the country right now is, is workforce. Housing is affordability. Rents have gone up. I mean, in some cities, it. They've gone up 20, 25% the past two years in a row. It's. It's becoming more and more expensive to own a home. As rates have gone up, home prices are at a record High rates are high. So the affordability gap between owning a home and renting is, is as big as it's ever been. And this is something that you've been involved in for a long time. You know, I, I talk about with, you know, I've had these conversations all the time. And it sounds nice to say, hey, we're going to build affordable housing. But it's really challenging because, you know, when you're building for 150 to $200,000 a unit, if you're lucky, you know. Yeah, if you're lucky. I mean, in most Cities it's about $300,000 a unit. You know, I say to people, you, you can't build affordable housing. You can only subsidize it or find rent ways to do it. What's your, what's your take on that?

I, I agree. And, and we don't use that model. We don't develop brand new because you can't make the numbers work unless you're doing an affordability, unless you have a subsidy.

Right.

And you're in an opportunity zone and you meet those criteria. Which opportunity zones are going away, by the way? I think those expire here in a year or so. And so just like all these, you know, one time good deals, a lot of those are going away unless you can do LI tech low income housing tax credit. That could work. But again, you're at $250,000 a unit. Plus if you're building a new property, it's not in an affordable area. Nothing, everything new is not affordable. Right. It's not. So the way that we get at it, because we are extremely passionate about this, is that we go by really distressed apartment communities and we clean them up and create safe, clean and still naturally affordable properties. We don't, we don't gentrify. We don't take, you know, a warehouse and turn it into yuppie apartments that are super cool and awesome that I like to stay in because those things are just super cool. Right. We take, you know, we make them nicer and better. We don't put in countertops because that's not our, you know, you put too much money into the unit, you cannot keep it affordable.

Right.

And at that level, they don't care. They just want something nice and clean.

Yeah.

They don't care about granted.

So for, for that model and you know, this is this kind of similar area where I started. Sam, illustrate for the audience approximately how much are you spending like per unit and for acquisition and then also for upfit, because you know, again, like we're seeing in new communities, if you buy an area like, you know, like say Orlando or Charlotte or you know, even, even Houston or Dallas, Texas, and some of these areas, you know, you're looking at, you know, somewhere around $300,000 for a new class A apartment. What are you guys looking at about on average for new, for acquisitions per unit?

Yeah, definitely depends on the location. So we pick up units in Tulsa, Oklahoma, usually around six a door.

I'm sorry, say that one more time.

$60,000 a door.

60,000, wow.

Yeah, yeah. So I mean we have one that we paid 15 million and it raised at 21 million. That's not a bad gig.

Yeah.

And there's still 60 units they put on the market. So that's nice side, right?

Yeah.

That you can get at without doubling the rent. So you can still keep it affordable and you can still get the upside and a nice healthy 20 plus IRR and 30, 40% average annual return. And then Dallas, we're generally around 80k a door. 81 on 180 units. We're looking at another one for 220 units. About 81 or know that, know the area, know the street, know the, you know, know the city councilman. Like we go and we talk to the city council about what we're doing and how we're doing it and get support wherever we can to make it as affordable as possible. On renovation side, we're depending on how terrible it is. If it's down to the studs, it's 20 grand. If it's just needs new floors, new, you know, cleaning up the walls, white trim, great gray walls, new kitchens, we're between 10 to 12,000 a unit. If they have most of the basics, then we're like 5 or 6k a unit.

Yeah, so you're, so you're all in 100k units somewhere around there. Maybe even a little bit less.

Yeah, usually typically less, but yeah, yeah, yeah, that's fantastic.

And it seems like because you have your, your crew in house, right. You, you, you're vertically integrated, you're able to do this more efficiently than some groups out there. Is that accurate?

That's 100 accurate. So we used to have property management in house. We still do that with some of our properties. We've now gone to third party property managers. I've never been satisfied third party. Doesn't matter. If they're the number one, number two best in, in America, I still not always satisfied. Because their goal at the property is to make as much money as Possible. Our goal at the property is to make as much money for, not just to make money for our investors, but also to make the community as quality we can make within that, that set of people or that area now. So your managers, third parties are always working against you.

It's a push and pull, right?

Yeah, it's a push and pull. So you have to be really on them. But. And then our construction crews, I. Every time we've ever gotten a quote from anybody else, I think the closest, every once in a while we'll get something or a third party will do it for the same price as usual. When that happens, we hire them and we go on and do something else. At 99% of the times we don't find that. Usually if we do find it, they're not very good. And so most of the time it's 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, $15,000 more to have somebody else do it than to have our crews do it.

Yeah.

And so that's why we can do 300, 400 units a year. And that rough puts, you know, $10,000, not $10,000, I'm sorry, $3,000 a unit on average or $5,000 a unit depending back into our investors pockets or back into the deal and we get to do more.

Yeah, I love that. Now, so what, what have you seen with respect to. So when Covid hit, you know, they had the eviction moratorium in place. Tell us a little bit about how your company handled that process. Are you guys still coming out of that? I know some, you know, some communities are still working, you know, through that. How did, how did that affect your company and how did that affect your residents and how did you work with your residents to get through that period?

So it really depends on state. We're in seven different states. Each state's a little bit different. Each community is a little bit different. It, it absolutely affected us in some ways. It made some properties better because the city was right on it. They made sure residents were getting covered. Some places we had residents just say, hey, you know, Mr. Trump, I don't have to work anymore. It's kind of like the, you know, the Obama phone. I got my Obama phone. Like, I don't, I don't need to go pay for a phone. I go get a free one. And so we did have, unfortunately, some folks say, hey, I don't, I don't have to pay rent anymore. Like, well, do you have a job? Yes. Then you still have to pay rent. So. But you know, during this time it was awesome. Because we were able to go to cities, state government, who, whomever, and get rent for residents who were struggling. And in a lot of ways that just made life so much better because now I have a third party that pays rent. We get to help the resident, the resident gets to stay, their kids get to go to the same school, their kids have better educational outcomes, the residents have better health outcomes. And you know, we get a more secure, stable community. And look, we do evict people. You have to. I don't like the process. Nobody in my family likes evicting anybody, but sometimes just are not ready, they're not ready or they've, you know, they won't work with us to go find somebody to help them. You work with tons, tons of charities, every, you know, every charity you can think of from religious charities, you know, women in crisis, state run charities and so forth.

Yeah, it's, it's one of those things that's challenging, right? You, like you mentioned, you're improving the neighborhoods. And with improving the neighborhoods, there's certain people that don't want to participate in that. But if, if they're bringing crime along with them, that's not something that's acceptable in a neighborhood. Right. And if you, if you allow that in, I know you know, this, then that means you're probably not going to be bringing somebody in that's going to be appreciative of the community that's going to bring, you know, a better, better attitude, you know, better family and, and probably, you know, know better, better habits when it comes to, you know, paying rent and taking care of the property and those sorts of things. Do you, what, what are some of the, what are some of the nice. I say like, I could say like hey, give me, give me some horror stories, which we certainly have, have some of those, but people can read those in the papers. What are some of the best stories that you've seen come out of these communities that you've improved? Sam?

Yeah. So I'll tell you just some that I've heard recently that stuck out to me. One of them, a gentleman working with for quite a long time, veteran Vietnam, just he could not hold a job. He just could never hold a job. But we had him getting section, section 8 rent. So it's a voucher, it's not assigned program where we work with the city or we have with the city. It's just we, we let them know that we accept Section 8 vouchers. Residents are still residents, they still have to abide by the rules and so forth. They don't abide by the rules, then they have to fix themselves or they have to leave the property. That's just how it goes, right? Our rules are not tough, you know, they're not tough. It's got to be. Yeah. Anyways, a good human, to a certain extent now. It was great though, because during COVID you know, he's getting rental assistance. And now after Covid, all of a sudden, like, the world's different and it's okay that he can't his apartment because his, you know, he can't walk very well and he can't drive very well and so forth. So he got a job and we were able. He was able to get office assistance and continue to stay in our property. Right. That's fantastic. That's exactly what to happen. It took him seven years to get off of Section 8. But that's what you want to happen, Right? That's the whole goal. I'll tell you another story. So we do things differently. I've spent a lot of time overseas. I lived in Europe for a couple years and then I've been back probably, I don't know, 20 times since. So one of the things that you see a lot of times in Europe is I know Americans are going to be like, oh, my goodness, don't, don't do that. So they don't have a dishwasher because you wash your dishes just to put them in the dishwasher that then washes your dishes, you know, twice. Right. So every time you do dishes, you do them twice. Right. So take out the dishwasher and we put in a washer dryer combo all in one. Yeah, Put those in there. It washes them, dries them. You pull them out in an hour and a half and they're done. Yeah. And so we've done that. So Instead of spending $5,000 getting there's ran and a piece of the living room section off, and now it's a laundry room or something like that. We have a washer dryer in the unit. It cost us 1500 bucks. They don't have a dishwasher anymore. I'm sorry, you know, to offend anyone who's a dishwasher. But, you know, now the washer dryer is in, in their unit. Instead of them going downtown to use a washer dryer.

Right.

Or to use the busted up washer dryers because people keep busting in the breezeways, which is a terrible place to have washer dryers. They can wash them in their home and they don't have to worry about their stuff getting stolen. And so this woman says to us, we say, hey, do you mind? It's 75 bucks a month. And she said, are you kidding me? She goes, I spend 150amonth downtown doing my laundry. I can't do it in the breezeways because people keep stealing my clothes. Who spills clothes?

But, okay, well, there's that dude that. There's that dude that worked with the nuclear team in the White House, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes. It's like.

There'S some people out there.

Yeah. So, yeah. She says, yeah, now, you know, so I only going to spend 75 bucks a month. I can do it in my house. And instead of spending five hours every week down at the laundromat, I'm at home. I can get another job. I can go back to school. I don't have to be away at night for my kids. I mean, are you kidding? So we not only did her overall expenses come down by 75 bucks, not counting gas, but she also got five hours back in her life.

Yeah, and that's, you know, it's interesting. We have. We have certain conceptions, right, that we go through and you know, different. Like you said, being in different areas of the world, you. You get exposed to different solutions that can be solved out here. And, you know, some people may say, well, that's crazy. Like, how can you not have a dishwasher? But if you have the option, like you said, to regain that time for that, and if, look, if you're. If you're a single person or, you know, you have a couple people in the house, like when you have, when you have teenage kids, it's crazy, right? It's like you gotta do dishes every day, but it's not that bad. Or maybe you maybe eat at the office, right? Or you're eating at work. And, you know, when I was working in the hospital, I was on call. I. Some days I didn't eat any meals at home. So it's kind of. It's kind of irrelevant. Whereas I sure would like to be able to do my laundry at home and do that. So I love stories like that. And I think, you know, a lot of people that listen to this podcast, they've not necessarily had to be in. In that sort of situation, but we're so spoiled these days. You know, everybody has their own bedroom. We have our own bathrooms. I mean, I just look at the house I grew up in. You know, you share a bathroom, you share a bedroom sometimes with multiple people in it, and you Know, we have, we have a lot of luxury these days that is afforded to most people, you know, in this country. I'm going to push back a little bit, Sam. So, you know, one of the things is, and I heard this, you know, when we were getting started, you know, I'm sure, you know, people have seen you and said, oh, Sam, you guys, you just buying up these apartments, you know, you're a slum lord. You know, you've, you've already given a lot of great stories. You know, you've talked about your view and how that's different. What, how, how is what you were doing different than this, than a quote unquote slum lord that's out there.

We've, we bought properties from slumlords. And, and over time, my conception has changed quite a bit. There are people who definitely are slumlords, like certain folks from certain countries. They're. Their culture is to not spend a single penny on anything on the property. Like they just, they won't anything and the property deteriorates and it turns into a slum. Right. And then they're constantly chasing people and it's partially occupied. That's one type of slum lord. Another type of slumlord. This is going to be a shocker are REITs. Real estate investment trust after they do their business plan.

Yeah.

If they're holding onto this property for 10 years or 20 years in the REIT, all of a sudden it stops being in, in the newsletter on the reit. Right. Only their best and brightest, shiniest properties are in there. And everyone's like, oh, look at this. I own a piece of a property in Miami on the beach. Yeah, that's great. You also own a slum in pick your town, usa. Yeah. They don't know that because the REIT is not going to spend a single pin the property for construction because they've already executed that in the business plan and now it's going to affect the bottom line. And so they're, that's the way they look at now. They could pump more money into it. But a REIT doesn't make money that way. They make money by bringing in more people billing the size of their REIT and they make their 2% off the top plus blah, blah, blah. So they don't make money that way. They make money. Yeah. They don't make money by taking care of the residents. They don't make money by taking care of the property. They make money having money now. So that's two, three. There's guys who get in over their head. They buy a property, they make a little bit of money. They buy a property and then they don't know what to do. And they're just like, I really want to do something here, but I don't know how to go get the right debt. I don't know how to raise money from other people. I don't know how. I don't even know what the word syndication means. I don't mean any. I don't know any of this other stuff. And so they are trying, like we bought this 180 unit and the guy who owned it, he was doing the repairs himself. This is 180 unit apartment complex in Dallas, and he's doing the repairs himself, hadn't fixed maintenance.

That's impressive.

Yeah, Yeah.

A good way.

Not in a good way. Right.

Yeah.

He was still being, you know, worked his job with the oil company. So is he a slum lord? I guess. Right. But he's trying the best he can now.

There are probably more under capitalized. Right, right.

He's under capitalized and he doesn't know how to capitalize. Yeah, got it. I'm. I'm happy to help those guys take the property off their hands. Capitalized it from the very front end. Now, if you say like, for example, that same property, if you came and saw it, when we first saw it, when the day I rove, I saw a drug deal going down, I saw there were six active sewage leaks where sewage was coming out onto the property. The nasty. The pool was full of sludge. If you go to that property now is beautiful, Just a gorgeous property. And you can feel like the atmosphere there is nice and happy. Feel nervous walking around at night there. I mean, it's completely different.

Yeah. And it's amazing how it's like you mentioned it, Sam. It's, you know, it's. In some cases it's cultural. In some cases it's just. It's just the way people see things mentally. And you know, what's wonderful is real estate's not a zero sum game. And I wrote, I wrote about this in my book is you can increase the income of the property, increase the value of the property, ultimately increase the returns. You know, is in your case, with. For investors, you know, for yourself, for investors. And it ultimately provides a better neighborhood, a better community for residents that live there, which means they're going to value it more. They're going to be comfortable paying more rent to live there than they would in a place that's not as high quality, which, you know, Kind of brings us to where we are to, you know, today in this country. Whereas, you know, rents have gone up and, you know, we can talk about why that is. We can talk about COVID we can talk about the under supply coming out of the last recession. But the bottom line is, you know, we're, we're short by about 4 million units in this country from what we need over the next decade. And, you know, we're catching up to a degree. You and I were talking about, you know, some, some solutions that municipalities, cities are coming up with out there to provide more units. What, what are some thoughts that you have? What are some things that you've seen work out there where cities can encourage development, encourage investors, encourage owners to provide more and better quality and affordable housing for residents that are out there?

So I, I haven't seen the cities be real effective at this, I think, because, yeah, at the end of the day, it's going to affect their revenues in, in some regards. Right. And so my, I'm a, I got my master's degree in health policy, worked in D.C. for a little while.

Sorry. I lived there for a while, too. That's great. Like, it is, it is. It's such a wonderful city. But.

Yeah, yeah, I, I agree with that. Wonderful city, terrible city. Will change the way you think about politics forever. And so I, you know, I know what people say on me to get press versus what they're talking about behind closed doors are completely different.

Yeah.

You know, which I'm glad because when I see them on tv, I'm like, you're an idiot. But what they're doing is they're talking at a third grade level because that's where most people understand and it's been proven that the, you know, if you speak at a third grade level in your campaign, you're more likely to win than if you speak at eighth grade level.

Yeah. Yeah. Versus Clinton. Yep.

Yeah. Trump versus Clinton. Right. Yeah. Anyway, so lots of analysis about those things. Very interesting. What I, what I recommend is that if a city has somebody coming in who's going to do what I'm doing, right. We're going to come in, we're going to clean up this neighborhood, we're going to clean up this. We're going to do this, we're going to do that. I need a tax break because I'm going to. It's one. It's super hard work. When I'm raising money for a deal, it's like, hey, this dump, it's amazing. It smells like poo. We're going to make a huge upside. And people are like, you can look at this deal in Miami that has, you know, variable rate debt. It's right on the beach, though. It looks gorgeous. The numbers are terrible, but they don't care because it looks so beautiful. And it's probably going to get foreclosed. Like, this is amazing. Let's buy this. So people, I mean, people want shiny things, right? We want shiny things. I'm human too. And so it's a little bit more challenging to raise money a deal like, like, it's more savvy investors. Like, let me get into this. And like, oh my goodness, Sam. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's. We see the same thing with, with our mobile home parks. You know, people, it's like, wait a minute, you know, this doesn't look as nice as this class A property. But you, you know, there's, there's such a need for this. And I think, you know, cities need to get creative. Asheville, they, they, they didn't do a great job encouraging development. They discouraged it in a lot of ways. And the city and developers and residents all got sandwiched between these forces. Whereas the city wanted affordable housing, but they basically said to developers, they said, hey, you need to build affordable housing. The developer said, well, we can't because it doesn't make economic sense. So the city said, well, then we're not going to permit you to build. So for years this went on and there wasn't a lot of development. Developers went to places like Charlotte and lo and behold, the past two years, Asheville is one of the most competitive rental cities in the country. Which, for, for those people that know that's not a, that's not a, that's a good thing if you own the properties. It's not a good thing when rents are going up 20 to 30% annually in the city. So now they're caught behind between a rock and a hard place. And you know, my opinion is, like you said, you know, tax credits, public private partnerships, reduce red tape, encourage responsible development. I look, I love. One of the things I love about Asheville is, you know, there's a lot of green space, there's a lot of community focus, which brings a lot of value to the area. Especially in these, you know, more, more progressive cities. You see. Well, some, like San Francisco, it's not as, not as shiny and pretty as it used to be for certain reasons. But if you do it in a responsible way, you can, you can do both and do those things. And we've seen it like there's been, the city has given some tax benefits or were granted land to developers, but the developers had to produce units that had rents below certain income or for below certain levels for certain income residents. So you get, you get both, you get affordable housing, you get new development, which means more units on the market, which means it's, it's more competitive for renters, not for know, trying to find an affordable unit. So hopefully, you know, we continue to come up with, you know, innovative solutions on a city by city and a state by state level and encourage people like yourself and your company to continue to do the work you're doing.

Yeah, I, I don't think, I don't think the answer is to build for everything. You cannot force people to lose money. It's so things that we would like to say and I think this will answer that question. So we started Wild Mountain with a, under a health initiative. Essentially. We want to clean up communities and bring more affordability. We want to make lives clean and safe so that people don't buck getting shot. They can go to school. Kids have other school programs so they're not picking up rocks and throwing them through your windows. That's better for everybody. It's just better for everybody. Okay. But to do that and make it sustainable, it has to be inside of a capitalistic paradigm. So if you become so progressive, you feel like, I don't care about these big greedy developers who want to make money. How dare they? You're getting a check. You wouldn't have gone into politics if you didn't think you could make a lot of money. Right? So we, we all operate this right? Use the capitalistic paradigm to your advantage so that you can spur activity. In regards. Why were people buying every single apartment complex they could two years ago and every house they could because the interest rates were zero. Talk about an incentive to go out and buy stuff. That was a huge incentive.

Yeah.

Now the regime change happened. New president came in, left that thing in there way too long and it backfired. And then they way overcompensated, raising interest rates by 100 something percent in 8 months or 10 months. And then everything, you know, banks are imploding and there's a massive, massive implosion still coming.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We've had this whipsaw effect. One of my favorite stories, John Mackey wrote a book, Conscious Capitalism. And you know, very, very idealistic. You know, Whole Foods. And he was telling a story in the book about, I think it was Stonyfield, the yogurt company And I'm either paraphrasing or maybe I'm, I'm mixing up companies, but they were talking about when the company struck a deal with Walmart and all the guy's friends said, what are you doing? Walmart's the enemy. And he said, what's our mission? He said, our mission is to get this organic dairy product, this organic yogurt, into the hands of as many people as possible. He said, walmart's the biggest retailer, the biggest grocer in the country. He goes, we just did more with this one deal than we've done in the entire existence of our company. He said, what's wrong with that? And that's what I love about what you do, Sam. You can do good, you can make money. I love the concept, Clean Money that we talked about on your podcast. Share a little bit more with the audience about your podcast and how people can get in touch with you and Wild Mountain Capital if they want to learn more about your projects.

Yeah, thanks, Chris. So I have a podcast, Clean, as you said, you can also, you can find me on Instagram at cleanmoney. Sam, one of the things I like to talk about is this concept of impact investing inside of the capitalistic paradigm, so in a way that you actually make money. So if you knew you could invest, let's say, a hundred thousand dollars, and not only are you going to make an average, you know, 20% annualized return or, or whatever, you're also going to put that money with a group who's going to go out and legitimately cares and is passionate about helping the community. So through strong governance, through, you know, Target Rehab, keeping our costs low, we're able to make this a profitable endeavor. It's the only way it can become sustainable. If it's not profitable, it is not sustainable. And it will never solve the affordability. Houses through government housing, it's just not happen. It has to be inside the capitalist paradigm. It has to be a way to make the profit and for investors to see that. So I think, you know, for anyone who's thinking about investing or thinking about working inside of real estate, come talk to, to you, Chris, come talk to me and let us share with you, like how you can make a difference with the money with your investment dollars. Mobile home parks, we do mobile home parks. We know apartment buildings. I mean, this is where poor people are at and that's where you have to go. So if anybody wants to reach out to me on LinkedIn, Samuel sells Instagram Clean money, Sam, you can reach out to me, Sam, at wowmountaincapital. Feel free to reach out. And I just a little excited. We started our coaching program, we revitalized it, made it really big and strong. And now we're really focused on teaching how to be savvy syndicators in a way that they can change communities and make them better. Love it.

Yeah, love it. No, and I think, look, if you know, whether you want to be sustainable from a capitalistic perspective, a financial perspective, or you want to be sustainable from an ethical perspective, because, you know, as, as people know, like the biggest risk to a company, aside from, you know, running out of money, is, is having a big corporate scandal, right. That brings down the entire company. So you have to have both the financial side, you have to have the ethical side. And Sam, you guys are doing that at Wild Mountain Capital. Thank you so much for sharing your story and what you guys are doing on our podcast today.

Thank you, Chris. Absolute pleasure. Likewise.

Hey, Chris, here again. I hope you found this episode valuable. Now, I have one more thing to gift you. We have a page for my coaching clients where you can get a free copy of my book as well as much more from previous guests on the show. Just check out nextlevelincome.com coaching to get a free copy of my book, audiobook and much more. I'll send you a copy of my book and cover all the shipping costs as a thank you for listening to the podcast. Also, please like share and take just 90 seconds to give us a rating on Apple podcasts.