Decoding the Emotions of Business with Chris Mailander

Whatever your pursuit might be, to be able to go out there and drive for excellence the best that you can be. And then also if it doesn't go well, if you get beat or lose, to be able to come back from that and not to shrink away. And I think these are the life lessons that you get.

Welcome to the Next Level Income show where it's our goal to take your income, your investments and your life to the Next level. I'm your host, Chris Larsen. If you haven't yet, get a copy of our book for free free at our website nextlevelincome.com. that's www.nextlevelincome.com. just click on the book link and I'll even send you a copy if you put your address in. On today's show we have Chris Maylander who we welcome back. He was on episode 11 in our first year as we started the Next Level Income show. Chris then was sharing his book called the Craft and we welcome him back to talk about his new book, Judgment the Art of Momentous Decision Making which was just published in June of 2023. Chris has counseled corporations and governments most arduous decisions in over 30 countries around the world. He also has a new podcast which is the cheat code to his work. And you can learn a series of quick lessons for improving your own decision making skills by describing to AHA. With Chris Maylander on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or YouTube. These are three to ten minute podcast sessions you can listen to on your drive, your flight, working out or like I do, waiting for my boys to finish up school or their sports practice and help you reflect on your path to achieving the most critical objective for your company as well as your long term financial security. Chris, welcome back to the Next Level Income show. Great to see you again.

Great to see you, Chris.

Yeah, well, you are one of our few guests who's been on the show more than more than once. This is your second time back and I was just checking you were on episode 11 way back in 2019 when you came out with your first book, the Craft. And you know you've, you've done a lot then. We've worked together since then. We were just reflecting on, I think we've known each other and known each other's families for about six years now. Um, got to see you here this past weekend during a fun event. But for those, for those that haven't been listening to the show that long or haven't heard that first episode, maybe you could share a little bit about your background and again, I, I do encourage listeners to go back and check out that episode because Chris has a really fascinating background.

Yeah, it's, I mean, my career has been a bit non linear, to tell you the truth. I've done a lot of different things. Things and, and you know, it starts with, you know, I do M and A work for the various kinds of companies that are, that are either buying or selling companies. I've done run national tenders for foreign governments. I have worked in some 40 different countries and transactions. I worked with one of the big global management consulting and systems integrators and, and you know, consequently it puts you into a lot of different circumstances, a lot of different situations and you reflect, you know, over. I've been doing this for about three decades now. And you reflect on what the patterns are of things that. Well, and what hasn't. And you reflect on how people have made decisions at critical moments and oftentimes there's little things that you pick up along the way. And so I'm at a stage now, as you mentioned, we've known each other for about six years in episode 11. I don't know what episode this will be, how many you've done since then.

It's about 200. Yeah, I have to go exact. Yeah, we're about to 200 here.

Congratulations for that. That's endurance, that's discipline.

Definitely. Yeah.

So I'm at a place now where I share a lot of those patterns and concepts and ideas and strategies with people based on a career that has worked with the Fortune 500, the Global 1000, all the way down to Silicon Valley startups, and seeing how people react in different kinds of stances to make really critical decisions about their future in terms of do they buy a company, sell a company, how do they do succession planning, how do they navigate sees, how do they grow their companies, how do they reorganize, how do they recapitalize, you name it.

Yeah, no, it's, it's awesome. I mean, you and I met Chris looking at, you know, some of the local smaller businesses that are around. And I think, you know, a lot of listeners of the show, they're, they're in corporate America, they're employees. And you know, a lot of people don't understand what goes on, you know, with small businesses behind the scenes as they're growing and trying to gain traction on their way to become like a Fortune 500. But I think a lot of people also don't understand how these big deals get done. And you know, you've really Distilled it down into, you know, into lessons into, you know, your, Your two books. Here, go. Go back a little bit, share with the audience what. Why did you write the Craft first? You know, let's talk about that briefly and what, what listeners, what readers will learn if in that book.

Yeah. So in the Craft was really focused on how to release exponential value within a company. And there's a number of techniques. These are kind of the, the hidden gems, in my opinion, of a lot of that experience and collecting it together to understand how do I create the company, how do I present the company, how do I package it in order to create the most value, which is always what you're trying to do. And I think that's one of those things that the lesson, as you mentioned for earlier stage companies oftentimes is they become so burdened with the daily exercises of growing and managing every task and wear many different hats that sometimes lose the perspective of what's the trophy? What's the goal at the end of the. At the end of the rainbow? And so that book is really focused on methodologies that you can use to increase the enterprise value of your company and have something that's really, you know, creates that wealth and value for your shareholders in a successful company. So that was the focus of the craft in 2019.

Yeah. And I, I. Sorry.

Yeah.

And I read that. And one thing, you know, I consulted you here recently. I was going through a negotiation, working, working through some stuff. And one of the things that I remember specifically from the Craft is, is, you know, you talked about, like, what's going on underneath the surface. And, you know, I really enjoyed your lessons because you've. You've worked in a lot of different cultures. You've worked in tribal cultures, you've worked in corporate cultures, and people react differently. And I think what I took from that, you know, being in sales, sales is communication. Negotiations is communication. And, you know, when it comes down to it, I'd love for you to share a little bit about your audience. What does that mean when you're, like, when you're sitting there across the table from somebody or a group of people.

People.

And why is it important to know, quote, unquote, what is going on, quote, unquote, beneath the surface? Is that, Is that how you phrase it? Beneath the surface?

Yeah, but I often say, you know, below the waterline.

Below the waterline. That's the. That's it. Thank you. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. Because, you know, this is where, you know, the duck floats on top, but underneath, you see all the paddling, etc, and we want to understand what is all that, that energy that's going on underneath. I think you raise a couple a good point as well, which is that I think people oftentimes assume that their greatest success comes from their financing, their strategy, how sell, how well their people are performing, etc. All of which are obviously important. But I think that the critical elements come down to how you do communicate and navigate through the different beliefs and values of different people and how they're wired so that you can find, you know, mutually successful collaborative type solution. That is a very difficult thing for most people to do and have most have limited skills in doing it. So you see a lot of times when you have deals that fall apart or deals that owed it usually will, will root down into understanding the underlying, you know, the way that the people are wired and come to the table and whether or not they have to mesh up nicely or not. I will give you an example that just came up yesterday, which is a, A, a US company that has a. Some business dealings in another part of the world and it's not going well. And so there was a conversation about. They immediately went well, we got to work on the contract and get lawyers involved. And so in that situation, you know, after I spent some time talking with them about the situational context said we need to re anchor this conversation, this conversation needs to get re anchored on the fundamental objectives that both parties are trying to achieve and not focus on let's do a contract as quickly as possible or revisions to a contract or wherever that might be. And the reason is because when you come into that perspective on something fairly tense and has significant financial value to both parties, when you introduce the concept of contracts and lawyers, it triggers an immobil response for many people which is fight or flight. As soon as you get to that place, we need to back up from there and level set on the business understanding. And that's a lot of what you identified which is beliefs and values and psychology and the emotions of it and how you communicate it. And that's where you find your success. I think that's the, that you unlock that significant financial value. And then you know, the second book that came out more recently in June of this year of 2023, more about the decision arcs underneath that. And so that goes another, it's another angle on this overall mix which is to understand a number of the behaviors going on there and when you're in those tense moments, how to, to navigate them successfully.

Yeah, no, I want to talk more about Judgment. Your second book, as we mentioned in the.

Sure.

In the introduction. But just to. Just to underscore that prior point, you know, I. Again, I. As I read it and I thought about, you know, some of the negotiations and the relationships and partnerships that I've been. In the past. It always. It came down to. And it was a lot of these things. It's like you step back and you think, oh, my goodness, that person reacted because of this relationship they had with their father, you know, or this person reacted because of you. What. What was going on in their personal life. And, yeah, it gets into this fight orf flight where people dig in on both sides and, you know, it. It's.

It.

You get into a space where you're. You're almost not even thinking about what. What you originally started the whole process with. You're in this, you know, kind of primal state or primordial state. You know, it's like that with our. What our alligator brain is. They talk about it.

Sure.

And, you know, when you step back, what I found is you step back and, you know, we even use it today. It's like, we work with a lot of investors, and it's like, okay, you know, yeah, we're going to talk about how much money you're going to make or what your rate of return is and all that stuff. And you're like. Some people think, well, that's the most important. But I remember one of my mentors, he told me when I was working with my team, he said, you know, Chris, you know, with. Whenever I would go out with my team, we wouldn't talk about how much money or, you know, the results and that sort of thing. I wanted to know what was. What was going on in their life. Oh, I want to buy a boat so I can go out on the lake with my family during the summer. And what he told me was then whenever I rode with them and I was with them, I'd say, hey, let's help get this deal done so we can get you that boat. And I was like, wow, you're focusing on what's really important to those individuals. And I saw a lot of those similarities as you talked about in your first book, which you talk about it in much more. I thought the stories were way more advanced with some of the international, you know, dealings and negotiations that you dealt with. But that's what I really got from that.

Yeah. Yeah. I think all of that is fair, and it's a great realization, and it's easy for many people to. To lose sight of the lesson because they get into their own head, into their own world and think about their own issues and their own objectives, etc. As opposed to understanding that everybody who has a seat around that table has a set of objectives and we're trying to find that point of alignment, if possible in there. And so I think that, I think that's the, how you unlock that value. And you're absolutely right. Which is if I understand, you know, both what their, their objectives are for this year, which might, that boat on the lake, that objective, et cetera, I think it can go deeper. I, you know, I've worked with a couple of people who are extremely successful, but I noticed in the pattern their leadership, some of their behaviors trace back to identifiable trauma in their childhood. You know, things that happen, you know, divorces and, and, and you know, losses of siblings and things like that. And you'll notice how in certain contexts that'll get triggered. And as soon as it gets triggered, the brain behavior, you know, when you see these maps and images of the brain, et cetera, when, when certain events happen, different pieces light up. And, and I can guarantee you that there are certain situations when there is friction and conflict and they're a child of that sort of trauma. Early bang, we go into some very primal behaviors which are pre programmed, they're thoughtless, you're not thinking it through, you're not making rational choices, you're, you're living in a pattern. And so being able to pose that, and that's really difficult for a lot of people to do. But again, I think that's if you can master it, if you can keep focus on that, if you can have also open and frank conversations with your team as you're navigating through those negotiations. It's really, really critical because most people can't see. And that's one of the learnings for the last 30 years, is that if you don't have that kind of common language about, hey, as we go into this, here's what we're looking for, here's, let's understand that conversation, let's decode that conversation and let's be impressed by it, be empathetic to it, be understand where it's going because that's really where you're going to get through. And a lot of our institutions don't curate that kind of competency. We do focus on who's got the best financing and the best spreadsheet junkie and trying to find the angle that creates the greatest yield. It never happens if the people don't line up.

Wow. Yeah. And that's something like, they didn't teach me that during my mba, that's for sure. And I think a lot of people, they don't even. They may not even. They're hearing this and they're like, wow, I didn't even think about that. You know, like, with respect to their own behavior, you know, just. Just looking in the mirror. And I know you and I have worked together through that to kind of say, okay, let's go. Let's kind of peel back some layers and figure out, you know, what the motivations are and, like, what. What the drivers are to really, you know, you know, get, get, get to get to a point of, you know, bigger purpose, bigger meaning, and ultimately, you know, bigger motivation. And, you know, that's what's interesting is when we work like Tim Grover, who was Michael Jordan's trainer. Trainer, same with Kobe Bryant. You know, Tim Grover talks about, like, the darkness that these players have. And it seems like. And I would argue, especially in, you know, American culture with men, you know, where we kind of hide our emotions, but a lot of our motivation is. Is from these early childhood or early life experiences where we're saying, hey, I'm gonna prove. I'm gonna prove something. And that's actually really good. Right? We're, you know, you're becoming successful in sports or business or whatever it might be and using that as positive motivation. But when you're sitting across from somebody like that, Chris, and you don't know what's driving them. You mentioned decode. How do you decode that? How do you figure out some of these things? I know you mentioned just being aware and kind of some of the. Some of the things that might pop. But, but how would one figure that out if they're not really attuned to these sorts of things? Today's show is sponsored by Money Insights and their investment optimizer strategy. In my book, I share how I use this same strategy starting over a decade ago to invest my money in two places at one time. This strategy has been used by the wealthiest for generations for estate planning, minimizing taxes, preserving wealth, and increasing stability for their investments. Now you can do the same thing. In addition, you can build a plan to build an emergency fund, pay for college, fund a business plan for retirement, and ultimately optimize your total financial picture. To find out more information, check us out at the banking link atnextlevelincome.com.

I mean, for example, I have a transaction that's going on right now that is extremely significant for My client. It'll be the most significant single event in the, in 40 years of the company's existence that we're working on right now. And it is involving counterparties that the transaction has taken. We're almost two years. So that means that we have had lots and lots of conversations. I know everybody personally. I know their wives and spouses and partners and kids, and I know what they do on their vacations and I know what their aspirations are for the next five to 10 years. But it takes time to do that. And I think when we talk about deal making, because I know you do a lot of that, I do a lot of that as well. And it tends to be. There's. I find that there's a stereotypical presumption about what that involves. And usually that involves that kind of hyper competitive, masculine, you know, go out into the world and hunt and capture and slay and it has that kind of vibe. And I think that that is wrong that I don't think that that yields what people think. I think that's something that you might see in a movie and it's not the reality of the situation. I think the more sophisticated deal making is being able to understand those people and understand what it is that they're trying to achieve and then find the alignment from there, if it's possible, in part because not only. And I know that you, you have built a community around your business. Your business is built on a community around it. You have to understand how people find value in that and find meaning and joy in their own ways as a part of their overall existence. And that's where the success is. And I think any deal or transaction where we're buying or sell a company, for example, a deal isn't successful if we close is successful from five years. It is, it has. Everybody has done really well after bringing together, you know, we've seen that enterprise value really jump over a period of time. We've done the math of 1 +1 equals 3 these pieces together and something alchemical comes out of that. But the only way that you create that kind of value is to make sure that the people who were there on day and have really had a great experience and driven to the next higher goal. And, and, and you don't do that through fancy legal structures or layering debt on business or whatever, you know, fancy thing that somebody wants to tell you about. You do it by getting the people right.

Yeah, yeah. All that other stuff that, that's the technical stuff that comes out. But yeah, it's the people yeah. So let's talk about. I was fortunate enough to read Judgment before it was published. And this is, this is, like you said, kind of a continuation of this process. So share with the audience a little bit about the motivation to write that. I remember when you were writing it, kind of talking about some of the stories that you had, which are really fascinating going into that book. So what was the motivation to do that? And what, what. What's a reader going to now learn through that book?

You know, first of all, when I write books, in both instances, I really, I have some ideas at the outset, but I. But it's a very inductive process for me. Like, I don't necessarily know where it's going to go, and you have to go through the rhythm of it. For me, at least, this is my patterning. I have to go through research the conversations, the interviews, the, you know, the hour upon hour upon hour of just me contemplating what's going on in these situations and then trying to put the pieces together. And the way that it happened with, with Judgment is really the eminent. The beginning point of that was conversation that I had with a former nuclear sub commander who was operating in the Pacific Theater and is one of the key case studies in, in the book. But he's a friend, and we, we were just sharing stories and he was telling some stories from 1985. I was like, wow, this is super cool. I like, somehow I need to be able to work with this and work with him, Ted Hack to figure out a way to tell this story. And there's a lot of different ways. You know, you contemplate how that might happen. And then I had another conversation with a couple of additional people, and they were completely unrelated. These are very, you know, these are people who faced moments, critical decisions that had momentous, monumental impact on history in their own ways, but from different to time, completely unrelated. One is military, one is political, and one is financial. And what happened? As I was kind of working with all of this, I realized that there was an experiment unfolding in my own mind, which is, can I take three unrelated events of unrelated people at unrelated points of time? Completely different patterns? And are there common codes and patterns which emerge about how you make decisions in these moments and what are those? And so that's really what the book is, is to identify them, that regardless of the situational context in the person, are there common themes, codes, patterns that we can then learn from, leverage, understand well as understanding the distinctions, what, what drives the differences in each of those cases. And then by doing that then I created, you know, essentially what is a game plan or a playbook that you can use, which is a series of strategies and then all the little knobs and levers, that engine that you can tweak, depending on your unique situational context and work your way through it. So that's. That's really what the impetus was, was ultimately was to create structure that can help somebody in their own decision making, no matter how unique it might be. Here are common concepts, codes, things that I need to think about, things that'll help, you know, manage my blind spots and my own biases and how I think and at least trigger it.

Yeah, no, it's. It's fantastic. And, you know, what. What is, what's. What's fun to me is all those things that you teach and all those things that you learn when. When you read through that process, they not only help you in business, they help you in. In your personal life as well. You know, they help you navigate, you know, your. Your personal relationships in your own home, your relationships with your friends and those sorts of things. Which is. Which is really, to me, it's really interesting.

And Chris, I think, you know, the other purpose of it is we talked about communication and being able to talk about these concepts transparently with other people. That's another purpose of the book, which is that it creates a language that we can intentionally have this conversation with somebody else. Now, they have to have read the book or understand the concepts as well because they have their own backgrounds, et cetera. But if you. If both parties have the same framework, you can at least transparently start to decode it together.

Yes, well, and I think, you know, as I've kind of learned more about this, as you lean in and you are more open as you share those things, you know, whether. Whether somebody really understands what's happening, they tend to be more likely to share and be open as well as you kind of bring your guard down and lean through some of that. So it's really, to me, it's really fascinating how that works. And, you know, unfortunately, you don't always get that time or that ability to do that with people, you know, but having that awareness that others may be reacting in a subconscious manner, you know, and maybe not as sophisticated as we may anticipate. You know, it's. You know, it was something that, as I now look through this lens, as you've kind of painted, I was going back and reading through, like, how JFK managed the Cuban missile crisis and just everything that was going on from the CIA and, you know, the. All the power struggles that were going on, it was really fascinating to see how some of this works. So now a lot, you know, hopefully people get your books and check those out, but, you know, we're all busy, and that's why I'm also excited. And this is what led to this book, to having you back on the podcast. You just started your own podcast, but it's a little bit of a different format, which I think is really cool. Share. Share why you came up with this new format for your podcast and how it works.

Yeah, so one of the struggles that I have, where the market segment that I. The niche that I'm in is on strategy and decision making or leadership, it's in that realm. And so many of the books that are associated with it, I find to either be extremely light and easy to digest, but they have a. They have a user base that's extremely broad. You know, it's late to me. Or they're extraordinarily dense, academic, and tough to get through, and boredom. So what I'm looking for is ways all these stories and these lessons that I think are much more accessible for people. And so Judgment is an attempt to do that with a series of different case studies and people through that. And then I've launched a new podcast, as you mentioned, which is called AHA with Chris Maylander. And it's designed to create AHAs. And they are short. This is three to ten minutes long. Ish. In each time, so that it's easier for busy executives and busy dads and, and, and, and executives to be able to throw it in while you're driving or running or, or working out or whatever it might be, or on an airplane someplace. And it's designed to use some stories as way to provoke some thinking about how you're approaching your own decision making in each case. And so it is. They're quick. I think there's about a dozen up there now. And if you put it all together, the intention is to have a full masterclass. And it's a way to take some individual lessons that also come out of Judgment and break it up. So it's much more accessible, much more, you know, things come faster and, and you can work it into your daily life.

Yeah, no, I love that. And it's. Yeah, you're waiting for your kids or whatever it is.

It's.

It's short little bits, because I think 30 minutes is pretty good on a podcast. But then I listen to Joe Rogan. He's like three hours long. It's crazy. So I like this, I like this concept. Naval Ravikant had one, he did like a compilation of all his lessons and what's neat is you can listen to all of them within two or three hours. So I like how you're doing this, which you're breaking it up and you can get it in little bite sized chunks for our, our ADD society that we now live in.

Yeah, that's for sure. I mean, I think that's absolutely right. It's very difficult to get people to read 280 page book. And so I think that's a better way that we do consume. It's much more Instagram. Like, it's much more ADD. Like I can consume three minutes. I can give you that.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So 10 may be too much. Three minutes I got. So, you know, Chris, I want to, I want to wrap up here with something kind of going to, you know, you and I, we met kind of in the business world, but also we spent probably the most time getting to know each other in, in CrossFit, you know, getting to see each other at the gym and you know, seeing our families there as well. And now I've, I've also been very fortunate to, to come to know both your boys to a degree and they're both great athletes in their own rights. Maybe you can share a little bit about, you know, sports and, and how that is important, you know, from your perspective in life, whether it's, you know, just day to day from personal life, but also in business and how that may have had some impact on, you know, where you are in your life today.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that anytime that you put yourself out there and compete is not just an expression of how good are you, but it's also how vulnerable you can be, you know, which is you have to understand your weaknesses and what's not coming along well and take a few losses and go through those, those journeys. And I think it's extremely important to life just so that people understand both highs and the lows and being able to battle back as well as to be humble in your victories, etc. So I think, you know, whether it's Sport or, or CrossFit or Speech and debate or acting or, you know, whatever your pursuit might be, to be able to go out there and, and drive for excellence the best that you can be. And, and, and then also if it doesn't go well, if you get beat or lose, to be able to come back from that and not to, to, to shrink away. And I think these are the life lessons that you get, the practice opportunities to do. So. So yeah, I know it's been important for family as I know with your boys as well. You know, my oldest has done some pretty extraordinary athletic things and I think certainly, you know, there's, there's one thing about the physicality of that and the physical achievement, but I'm more impressed by the mindset and the discipline and the day in and day out and, and, and then, you know, he's weathered through the challenges and, and you come back and you're resilient and I think it. Confidence, very quiet confidence for, for my son about who he is and, and you know, I think that's going to shape his leadership for a very long time because people gravitate to it because he's a very quiet leader, he's confident and, and he also will help people in their own journey, wherever they might be. Very patient, has the right words, bring them along. And so it's been good. You know, I think that there's a lot of lessons for all of us.

Yeah, there certainly are. And I mean I'm a little, I'm a little biased because, you know, I have a similar background to your son in the endurance sports. For those that don't know, Chris's son is an Ironman triathlete as well as, you know, an endurance athlete and a lot of other endeavors. I think we came to know him when he was training and, and completing 100 mile run. He was what, 17 at the time, Chris?

He was 17, yeah. And he did 106 miles and 18, 000 miles of elevation gain within 36 hours.

So yeah, which is amazing. I remember talking to you as you were helping him strategize and plan that run. And ultimately my wife was a part of helping pace him and my, my younger son kind of got. Ran along with him and ran. I think he was, he ran 10 miles. I forget how old he would have been. That would have been a few years ago. So my son was 10, which was. And the point I'm not, I'm saying that because when you see up, you see people like your son achieve things like that, it's contagious. And you know, he's, you know, that leadership comes from being an example to others, which I think is impressive. And those lessons like you mentioned, you know, the vulnerability, knowing how strong you are where you're not, you know, I'm not dead, I can get back up, I can take another step and I can do that is very important in life. And you Know, one of the reasons that I worked with you as a coach, Chris, is because I'll never forget, I saw the way you interacted with me in the gym, and it was almost as if you could see my vulnerabilities, and you. You would. You would chide me in certain ways, which somehow I guess you knew that would encourage me because I like to be kind of pushed down. But the reason I bring that up is because, you know, whether it's in sports or in business, it's really important to have somebody in your life, in my opinion, that can look and see where your weaknesses and vulnerabilities are and help you focus on those and ultimately strengthen. Strengthen those things. And, you know, your books help. Help with those lessons, as does your podcast. I want to thank you for sharing that. I want to thank you for sharing that with the audience. And what's the best way for people to learn more? Either get your books, learn more about you, or stay in touch and listen to your new podcast as well.

Sure. Thanks. It's been wonderful to be here. It's always great to talk with you. The best way is my website is chrismalander.com and reach me through there. You'll find the books, you'll find the podcast, the easy links, and a little bit of the biography. And you're absolutely right, which is that I think I work with a lot of CEOs that expressing vulnerability is difficult because they are hard chargers. They are. They are striving for astronomical strategic and financial objectives, and they want to be pushed, and they want somebody who is compassionate as part of that journey. But also make I'm achieving as much as I possibly can. But, you know, we've got to talk about where there's some weaknesses or blind spots, biases, things of that nature. And so being able to build strength from those places, how you have a really wonderful experience. And that's what I, you know, that's what I get off on. That's what I enjoy, is seeing that growth.

Yeah, no, and certainly I benefited from that. So if you're listening, you want to learn more about Chris, you want to get his books, check out ChrisMaylander.com we're going to have that in the show notes. And if you're looking for help in your financial journey, you're looking for some coaching along the way, reach out to us. Coachnextlevelincome.com coach@nextlevelincome.com you can check out our new coaching program, our course online, and you can get all of our resources@nextlevelincome.com Chris, thank you so much for sharing your story today with the audience.

Thanks Chris. Great to be here.

Hey Chris, here again. I hope you found this episode valuable. Now I have one more thing to gift you. We have a page for my coaching clients where you can get a free copy of my book as well as much more from previous guests on the show. Just check out nextlevelincome.com coaching to get a free copy of my book, audiobook and much more. I'll send you a copy of my book and cover all the shipping costs as a thank you for listening to the podcast. Also, please like share and take just 90 seconds to give us a rating on Apple Podcasts.