House Hacking: The Best Way to Get Started in Real Estate - Episode 84

Welcome to the Next Level Income Show. It's our goal to raise your income, your investments and your life to the next level. I'm your host Chris Larsen. Get your free copy of our book@nextlevelincome.com just click on the book link. Also, if you're an accredited investor, check out our Invest link to learn how to gain access to our Self Storage Fund as well as other institutional quality real estate opportunities. You often hear me talk about the Next Level Income strategy of make more money, keep more money and grow your money. How do you get started? I often tell investors a great way to get started is house hacking. What if you had a company that could not only teach you how to house hack but also allow you to house hack without even being in the home? Stay tuned to learn more from Johnny Wolfe. Hey, have you heard of the Multifamily Investor Nation Summit? It's coming up on January 20th through the 22nd. It's a three day information packed event for multifamily investors with over 1000 attendees and over 50 speakers. Speakers including yours truly. You will hear from experts about finding deals, raising capital, underwriting strategies, selecting markets and so much more. Go to mfinsummit.com to grab your ticket. That's mfinsummit.com to grab your ticket and use promo code Next Level. That's all caps. Next Level. You get a hundred dollars off. Whether you are new to multifamily investing or a seasoned investor, you do not want to miss this event. Join me at the Multifamily Investor Nation Summit. Visit mfinsummit.com on today's show we have Johnny Wolf. Johnny is the CEO and founder of Homeroom Cone Living, one of the fastest growing co living companies in the United States. After starting his career as a financial analyst in Silicon Valley, he relocated to Austin, Texas to pursue real estate investing full time. His love for real estate investing and living with roommates motivated him to start Homeroom in 2017. In 2020, Homeroom boasted 99% on time rent payments, full occupancy and zero evictions. Johnny still lives in one of Homeroom's first co living houses in Kansas City. Enjoys hanging out and surviving the pandemic with his awesome roommates, especially on chicken wing Thursdays. All right Johnny Wolf, welcome to the show.

So happy to be here. Chris.

Yeah man, I got to say Johnny Wolfe. Like that feels like a name that has to go together so I love that.

It's a good ring. Actually my middle name is Stryker. I have like pretty good, pretty good Name. I think one of the challenges though with a name like that is like you never quite live up to the name itself. I've done some cool things, but like I think my, the name is still better. So someday I'll catch up, I think, I hope I would.

Can I give you, can I, can I suggest maybe going by Stryker Wolf? Like man, that would just be.

That's, yeah, my, that's my video game character name for sure. Every time.

There you go. I love it. Well, I will tell you what, man. You got, you got some really cool stuff going on. Cooler than, cooler than most video games that I like. But you've had an interesting background. I'd love for you to share that with the audience before we start talking about Homeroom, because this is a topic that as we discussed the other week, I'm really excited about discussing. But before you get into it, Johnny, I guess share with the audience a little bit about your background before you started homeroom.

Yeah, so before launching Homeroom, I had a finance in Silicon Valley and I worked at startups as well as Fortune 5000. But really in my spare time, the thing that I was like the most excited about was real estate investing. I would go home, I'd take my work computer and my spreadsheets that I'd like gotten really good at utilizing and I would model different real estate investments. And so I kind of started investing a year after I graduated from college and I've been investing ever since. But in 2015, I'd been working in Silicon Valley for a while, realized I didn't have the life, you know, I wanted bigger things than you can get kind of in the finance career there. So I moved to Austin, bought a million real estate in 2015 and it generated 500% return annually since then. So it's been a really great investment. And that, that kind of investment in Austin and those properties really is the foundation for room is today and really helping investors buy clothing properties, which is roommate houses. And that's exactly how I set up those Austin properties, that kind of really awesome return. And so that's what we do today is we help investors utilize the Remain model and get better returns than they can get anywhere else.

Well, I guarantee you got some eyebrows raised when you said 500% annualized returns. And I think, you know, this is the dichotomy that we're seeing now. I tell people like, I really don't like long term rentals. Like, you know, you know, your single family rentals right now. People are like, but that's Chris, that's how you got started. So Johnny, that first property you bought or that for those first properties you bought, was that a house? What type of property was that?

Well, I've actually, I've done a few multifamily but my mostly and what I did in that group of properties is all single family homes.

All single family homes. So how many? So for a million dollars, that doesn't buy a ton in Austin. I gotta imagine four.

Four properties.

Okay, so you had four properties in Austin. So how did you, how did you. So this is an Airbnb, right? So how did you figure that out?

You were.

Cause my. Okay, so let's set this up. You know, we call it house hacking now. I started out, I bought my first property was a three bedroom townhouse and I rented the other two rooms out.

Exactly.

Is that the same type of thing?

Yeah, very similar. That's really kind of the house hacking model. And whenever I'm on it, pockets to be like, what should I do first? It's like, yeah, it's always the same answer. I'll just say house hack and then I'll move on, you know, and like it doesn't matter if you live in la, San Diego or Vegas, wherever you live, house hack. But buy with a primary residence loan and then see if they have rent, see if they have down payment assistance in you move to that county, get your first one for nothing. That was what I did in Austin.

Right.

My first one was for nothing. And then the other two are three, three and a half percent down loans. Right. So and if you are upgrading each time, it's actually in compliance. Like it's not like it's kind of like, you know, the, the, the code of what you, you know, like there's not like a specific statute. It's really, does the bank approve the next one? And so I was able, you know, four properties, I had 27 roommates across those properties, which is a lot. And it, you know, is where I cut my thund. Property managing for the first time.

Yeah.

And roommate dynamics and you know, when you're house hacking, you're in the house and you kind of know the people, but when you're like when you have four of them going at once, unfortunately you don't have that kind of visibility inside the houses. So I started to use smart home technology to kind of make it easy for maintenance people to come or to show the house off to new tenants. Started to get really good at Craigslist, posting for rooms and Facebook Marketplace. And so it was really like the genesis of what we've done at homeroom at like a much, much bigger scale. But it wasn't easy. It wasn't easy at all. But like, the returns are phenomenal. You can, you know, the rent, you can be 100% higher than if you rent as a single family rental. The stability compared to a short term rental is just way higher. Right. Co living didn't affect it that much. If one person leaves, you still get, you know, you still get 80% of rent. Right? So it's more stable than short term or regular rents. So higher rents, more stability. It's like a pretty. But it's a lot of work. Right? So that's where homeroom kind of comes in. And we offer investors like basically unlock to just do, to roll this model out kind of in the cities that we're in.

All right, you just threw a bunch out there. And this is great because I get to go through each point, um, your next level income, as we talked about, Johnny, the models make more money, keep more money, and ultimately grow your money. And I get, I get these calls, these emails every week. This is all. This is why we have the podcast. Young investors. Chris, I don't have $50,000 to invest in a syndication or, you know, I don't, I don't have, I don't have quite a down payment. And I started just like you did. 3% down, $90,000 townhouse, you could do the math. It was less than $3,000. It was awesome. And I tell young investors, just like you did, I said, listen, go buy a house, rent out a room, look into Airbnb or do a fix and flip if you're into that sort of thing. But most people are like you and I are young professionals. They don't have time or the inclination to do that. So step one, do a house hack. So is co living, is this. Basically it's just a different name for house hacking, is that right?

I mean, it is. What we are doing is we've kind of done it at scale so investors never have to live in it. And so we, A lot of times investors will buy with a 15% down loan. Okay, but that work with homeroom, right? So we basically say, oh, you're an out of state investor in San Francisco, you've got 100 grand and you want to invest. Here's how to do it. And here's how to. Instead of spending 100 grand, let's get you down to 50,000, because we're going to get concessions, we're going to get Credits for construction. We're going to get all this stuff, right? So we're. It's a complete kind of strategy around that. But the model itself is really based on the house act. Right. It's just based on if you are in that same city, you can do exactly what we're doing, which is furnish the common areas as cheaply as you can, but make it look nice, as nice of a house as you can afford, and then rent out as many rooms as you can do. Right. And make as much rent there as you can. You should be able to live for free. You should make money on it, and you should be paying down the mortgage. It should be appreciating. You should be getting a little cash. So it's really the number one wealth thing out there from a risk adjusted basis, in my opinion. If you don't do it, I feel like you're missing out on a huge financial opportunity.

Oh, yeah. And that's what so many people feel right now. Johnny is they say, I just talked to a friend yesterday. She and her husband are moving to Charlotte. And she's like, chris, we want to buy a house, but we can't find a house that we want. We don't want to rent because we don't want to give up on this opportunity to buy a house. Like, what do we do now? They're married, they're a little older. Maybe they don't want a house. I can do this. But if you're young, I'm just like, oh, my gosh, you just came out of college. You have roommates. So just to be clear, this is not Airbnb, right?

Not Airbnb.

Not Airbnb. What is the. So Airbnb. And we have two. My wife and I run two Airbnbs. Our average length of stay is one and a half to two nights. So your average length of stay, this is like, we're talking about year long.

13 months.

13 months, yeah. So it's similar to what we see in the apartment space. Okay, so what you said, you also said that Covid didn't affect that. So let's talk a little bit about it, because if you Airbnb, the hotel industry, it got shut down. Absolutely shut down. You guys must. You must have had some sort of hiccup in your business.

How did 20 affect your business? Yeah, it was scary. It was, you know, I definitely, like, called like, a good friend and like, kind of, you know, was like, I think we're going under, man. And, you know, I sent an email out to our investors Like, I don't know if we'll make it through this, but what we found is that people did not move during COVID Right. So that first three months, the scary months where you wandered the grocery store aisles and saw no toilet paper and people, like, wouldn't make eye contact because they were sad. That was the toughest times. Right.

No one moved.

And we had 100 occupancy and we had 100% occupancy for the first three months.

That's awesome.

So we.

That's awesome.

Yeah, we rolled out a, you know, COVID protocol. If someone got it, we, like, but, you know, shut down the house. No one could go in or out. We gave the, like, advice and kind of counsel and they could call us. And we had three houses that got it of our portfolio and only one case of somebody spraying to somebody in the house and the whole time. So pretty. Yeah, that's pretty good record. You know, and obviously people didn't want to travel, but, you know, it's not a bad thing to be in a house. I was in one of our houses during COVID was great. We did chicken wing Thursdays. We had people to talk to, watch Netflix together. We shared sanitizer.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

So much better than being stuck by yourself. I mean, so much better. Yeah. I don't think we talk enough about the mental. I mean, you look at the issues of depression, you know, suicide rates, like in Japan, if I. If I recall, you know, you can. You can. You can send me an email and tell me I'm wrong on the numbers, but. But if I forget what the age group is, but I want to say under 25, you know, adolescents up to age 25, there are more suicides than COVID deaths. Like, increase in suicides and COVID deaths. I mean, that's just one statistic. Yeah, it's so it is really hard on people. You know, fortunately, I had. You know, I have a family, and we had a very small. We had one other family that we associated with. But, man, how hard was that?

You know, it was incredibly hard, I think. But if you're in a communal of some kind of family. Right. I think that's one of the big things that we really believe in, espouse to is that there's kind of a story about the young professional that they graduate from college and they get their own studio, and that's like, success. And that means that girls will date them because they're cool, they live alone, and they're burning a thousand a month for nothing, essentially. Is really not that that phase of life has now become 20 to 40. Right. And that's not really. People aren't really meant to live alone for two decades. It's lonely, man. I, I mean, I tried living alone a couple times because it was like the cool thing to do and I, I didn't like it. Right. I enjoy kind of the community aspect. Yeah. And I'm glad that I was like living like that when covet hit because, man, I don't know, would have been so much worse.

Yeah, no, I mean, you look at the studies and people that, you know, they're on their deathbeds and you look at the statistics for happiness. It's that community. It's the community that you have. And now with our wonderful technology that we sit and stare at and do that, having that human connection and the fact that, you know, I think you bring it up in some of the material you have is, you know, we have delayed marriages now. Right. So it's like having those relationships, you know, that you can enjoy time with each other is awesome. Before we talk about, I can't wait to talk about how you work with investors because I think this is really, really interesting how you've been able to move into that space. Your tech background. So if you would, Johnny, share with the audience your tech background, how you were able to use what you learned in the tech sector to ultimately scale your business and really create home run.

So Silicon. I worked in silicon valve from 2007 at 20:15. And you know, some of the, some software, some hardware companies, but kind of the big ones that really influence what we're doing at homeroom today is I worked Electronic Arts. Right. And they're a big community aspect to like game. It's real video gamers. Right.

Yeah.

And, and we were, I was deeply, kind of embedded with the product team and the software teams. And so it's kind of through that experience our cto, Thomas and I connected. And so, you know, using technology of different, we, you know, there's different, you know, I think 10, five years or five years ago, everything had to be built from the ground up if you're going to try to build a scalable business. But today, like Thomas and I collaborate quite a bit and we use a lot of low code, no code tools. Right. And then we also have full a la carte tools offer that we develop to kind of do things that don't exist. But it's, it's just becoming a much.

More.

I guess, a la carte environment in terms of what you're building for your company. And even people like Thomas and myself, they're like, he's, he's a brilliant software guy. He has, he's a PhD machine learner. But you're, you kind of can build your own software company today with that, with someone that has those skills. But 80% of what you're doing is just putting pieces together of other apps and just having kind of that grit. And so working in Silicon Valley, you have a hundred tools you're working with at all times. You're piecing all that stuff together. And that's really what's enabled us to scale much faster, is using no code, low code tools and then layering on kind of custom software and the parts that really needed it. And really you can do it a lot cheaper too. So I think that's, you know, if you don't think you can build a software business today, I think you're probably wrong. If you really, most people have a shot now that they didn't really know that they had.

That's awesome. Almost like, almost like having like the Lego building blocks and you can just, you can put pieces together and doing.

That pieces together and the user may not know how that you don't have that. You may only have 10% of what they're experiencing is code that you've written. So it's really kind of, it's changing the way that. And the true no code is probably three to five years away, but you can get real close with a good engineering partner, you can get so much further. We've spent less than a million dollars on the software that we built and it's really, really scalable.

That's awesome. Yeah. And what we found, I mean, Kyle Stanley, he was episode 50, he talks about how to scale an Airbnb business and the tools that my wife and I put in place, a lot of these, they send automated messages, um, they even have integrations now with, and I'm sure you know all this with smart locks. And it's, it's incredible. It's incredible. I asked my wife the other day, I was talking to somebody who's looking to start a business and I said, how much time do you spend running our Airbnb business today? Her answer is 15 minutes. It's because of all these, all these tools and the ability to scale and do that.

That's amazing.

Yeah. So for somebody that's listening, Johnny, and they're like, yeah, this sounds, this sounds great. You mentioned something earlier about being an out of state owner, not dealing with the roommates. Being an investor, let's talk about how you've now taken your highly profitable personal business and now scaled it to the point that you can have people come in. How does that work?

Yeah, so the best way to kind of talk about the process, kind of an example. So recent investor that bought with us earlier this year, the Lenzers, they're actually one of our on the website, they're a cute family. They had no kind of real estate experience but they had a 100,000 in cash. They came to us and said hey, we want to diversify into real estate. And so we kind of educate them on just the nuts and bolts of real estate. Then we identify and we show them a pro forma and how our tool works so they understand the numbers. It's all pretty simple, pretty straightforward. Most folks can learn it. A couple calls with us and then we'll identify a property that matches co living the best. So that means that the roommates will stay the longest, that means there's enough parking, shared bathroom space. That means that the returns will be the highest for the investor. And we'll say hey, here's a property, here's the numbers we ran for you. Would you like to pull the trigger and make an offer on this? And at which point that's really the main thing the investor has to do is get pre approved and make the offer on the property. And we can, we'll be there the whole time. During the option period we actually review the inspection and we'll tell them like don't buy this house or hey, it's going to cost a little bit more to do the repairs. Then when the house is purchased our team goes in and retrofits it so the investors don't really have to do much pre approval, make an offer and then send us a check so we can set the property up. At which point then they'll start getting paid for the house essentially they get a matter report so they can see what it looks like when it's complete and that we have an owner portal so they can see kind of the visibility, you know, which room is renting out for which amount. And yeah, that's pretty, it's pretty spiffy, it's pretty clean. We have a number of folks that have referred friends come back. We have a guy that just bought his fourth one, another guy who says he's going to buy six in the next six months. So it seemed, you know, a lot of investors really enjoy the experience. Also the returns are higher and you don't get those big $0 months. With CO living, we just never had a house ever that has nobody in it. Right. We may have two room D out of six, but you don't go down to zero. You don't have to do a full make ready. And so our investors end up having this much smoother experience than they with a standard single family rental. And you know, short term rentals are really good investment as well. So I mean, I can't say anything against them. Obviously during COVID we did see that there are some holes to the game of the short term rental. So. But yeah, we love co living for a lot of those reasons.

Well, and I think there are markets where you can't do short term rentals. Like in Asheville, in the city limits, you have to have a homestay where your short term rental has to be part of the house. We ran a suite in our main home, but you can't rent a detached home, for instance. So it's interesting. And you actually can't have a full kitchen. And there's some crazy rules that Asheville has. I just actually they're having a hearing in the next 30 minutes. I sent in my, my comments, but so yeah, there's. Anyway, it's, it's interesting how, you know, all these cities are trying to handle the housing, housing shortage. And that's what I love. You're actually handling the housing shortage by providing an option. Whereas these cities are trying to handle the housing shortage by taking inventory off the market, which I don't know, like you Econ 101 seems to say that doesn't work too well. So yeah, yeah, we're definitely, you know.

We'Re definitely a single family home. We can turn into four units. Right. Or five. And it's not, you know, technically a unit there, it's an unrelated family. But. Right. If you. There's no one that can compete with our price point. We're 30% cheaper than a studio. So you have young millennials who are deeply in debt who they can't build wealth fast enough because never get out of that debt. They can't buy their first home. So we, I think co living is really kind of like a different path that enables people to save, pay down that loan, their first house, you know, before they're 30. You know, it's not a spiffy. But I mean, I think you and I both are on the same page where it's like do the thing that makes the most sense and then get the cool thing later because you kind of create a foundation for your Life. That's a lot more healthy.

Absolutely. I can't, I couldn't have said it better myself. That's, that's, that's phenomenal. All right, so I got two, two follow up questions for you on that one. What's the like, is there an ideal number of rooms per property?

Yeah, I mean, it really depends on the city. We have some homes that have as many as seven.

Right.

And we're always kind of like looking at compliance and making sure that that works. We have some as few as three generally. More the better though, from the investor standpoint. And we found that up to seven, like roommates can actually get along really well. And as long as there's enough shared bathrooms and the parking situation is. So it can still be a very healthy home. Our goal is like, if someone wants to live here for five years in one of our co living houses, they'd be like, pretty happy. It wouldn't like grind on them. Things wouldn't come in their way. And so everything's set up to create sustainability in the house for the roommates, but also in the neighborhood for the neighbors. Right. And so you have, you know, crazy parking situations in which people are parking from the neighbor's houses. You can't have the yard getting out of, out of control, which we, we handle the. So it's the most beautiful in the neighborhood. So it's all about just kind of like being a part of the community in a way that's sustainable and healthy and then the micro community inside the home, having maid service and super clean and like having kind of a framework and a connection to other houses at homeroom. I think it all kind of works together in kind of a good, balanced way. Yeah.

No, that's interesting. That all makes perfect sense. So we talked about some of the markets you started. Was it Kansas City was your first.

Market that you started in, John, Starting Kansas City?

Yep, Kansas City. And what markets are you in now?

Today we're in Austin, Dallas, San Antonio, and we're expanding to Pittsburgh right now.

Awesome. I mean, so I can't argue with. I mean, Kansas City's a great market, Texas. So why Pittsburgh? I'm interested in that. My wife lived there for a while, by the way. So did she.

How did, how did she like it? How did you like.

She was young, so wasn't. She wasn't a professional. But I know, I know Pittsburgh's come a long way in the last 20 or so years.

Yeah. So we, we know. Our hypothesis at least is we know it's a little Strong. But our hypothesis is that roommate and exist everywhere. Right? And absolutely we were the first, first kind of company that took this concept to like a city like Kansas City and then took it to like the outskirts of the city. And we've seen the roommate, the demand for roommates like pretty much be insatiable even in these like places like Olathe, Kansas. It's like an hour away from down to Kansas City. So we're not worried about roommate demand. We know that it exists in Pittsburgh, we know that it exists in San Antonio, all that. I think the part that we are the more sensitive to is where is the investor demand to invest. And so when an investor says, hey, I want to buy in Dallas, that's actually when we launched the Dallas market.

Gotcha.

Investor who wanted to invest in Pittsburgh. So we launched the Pittsburgh market. So it's really about investors saying, hey, I want to invest in Miami. Then there we go. Doesn't take us very long to launch a new market. Like about four weeks.

Okay, so I'm checking out your website because I was looking for that couple of lenses you guys are talking about. But if so, okay, so if investors are listening, they're like, wow, this is something I haven't considered before. What's the best way for them to learn a little bit more about what you do? Look through some of your pro formas, the tools that you guys have, Johnny, and ultimately get a hold of you guys.

So I mean on our website livehomeroom.com you can go to slash invest and you can see kind of some example pro formas of homeroom properties. You can also book a call just like right on the website. Pick a time with our director of real estate investor sales. He does, he's a, he's really, he's amazing. He does like 10 or 12 calls a day with investors every day just to talk it through. We'll do two different calls. One will kind of go over the general concepts and what to expect. We do another call, we actually go through an example pro forma and kind of see the actual numbers. And so then when you get to actually buying instead of kind of feeling like, hey, I don't have enough information. I'm not sure how this all works. You're like ready to go. I think you know for sure that inventory is super scarce. And so our investors were like, hey, it's pretend like you're starting a stars block in a swimming race. You're going to have to go. If they shoot the gun, you go. You have to be ready and so that's part of our approach is making sure time a house is performance. Sitting in front of our investor. They're ready to make that no go decision in an hour. Because frankly, if you don't make it the day opportunity presents itself in December, in 2021, then the house will be gone and you will be the 17th offer or something. Like, we saw 120 offers on one of our houses in Austin recently. So it was like, wow, you know. Yeah. And so people don't, sometimes people don't believe us. They think we're trying to like, be and be like, you got to go fast because, like, it's good for us. People move a little quicker sometimes. But yeah, no, it's, it's very real. And after they lose their second or third deal, they, they, they kind of move a little quicker usually.

Oh, yeah, I got. Our neighbor just sold their house. And I was like, are you selling your house? So said he goes, we didn't want to sell our house, but somebody showed up. They lost out on like two, three, four other houses. And they showed up. And because their friend was like, hey, this guy might sell his house to you. And they showed up unsolicited bid way above what, what the market would. He's like, I couldn't, I couldn't refuse. So if you don't believe what Johnny's saying, believe it. It's. It's amazing out there, the inventory shortage, especially in these great markets.

We have a team in the. That actually checks every house that comes available every morning, and they spent a couple hours in every market. And then we send it within an hour of figuring out a house will work for homeroom. And then if we don't have an offer out that day, then usually it's, it's done. Yeah, it's all kind of like, it's a lot faster than it was a year ago, for sure. Oh, yeah.

All right, so how do you make money then? How do you guys make money, Johnny?

And so we charge of. We have two models, actually. We have one. It's guaranteed rent model. We will actually guarantee a rental amount. And the math on that is about 70% of what we'll get from the room. And the reason that's really good for investors is our guarantee will actually be higher than the market rent would be. And so there ends up being fees. You get like a guaranteed amount and then you're, you know, maybe the rent on a single family home would be 1700, maybe we guarantee 2,100. There's no property Management, there's no lease up fees, there's no anything. So you get that. That's a really, that's a really sweet deal actually. But most of the folks that work with us do the model, which is they do a revenue share, we'll take 15%, they get 85%. In which case some of the time the total rent will be, you know, double. And so then the rent on average, then maybe 2,500 if the property would run for 1,700 normally. Yeah.

Gotcha. I love it, Johnny. I'm really glad we got connected because this is a concept that I really, I thought it was like, yeah, this is cool. You can kind of house hack. But the fact that you figured out how to blend technology, scale the business, ultimately offer it to investors, I'm excited that now I can say, hey, check out this podcast with Johnny. Check out homeroom. And one more time for the audience. Johnny, the best way to get in touch with your company and you is.

Yeah, so livehomeroom.com is our website. You can reach me at johnnyvhomeroom.com My goal is to every email every day. I achieve that goal most of the time. So yeah, you can reach me anytime there. And we love to talk to investors, talk to house hackers. We've got people that reach out to us for house hacking advice. We're happy to give that advice. That's how I started and that's such a great decision that we're, we're happy to kind of help as much as we can when people are doing it.

I started the same way. So if you're listening and you've been trying to figure out the best way to get your first investment property, get your foot in the door and start to grow wealth yourself, Try the way Johnny and myself did as well. House hacking and livehomeroom.com check it out.

Yep.

Johnny, thank you so much. This has been a blast.

Chris, thanks so much for having me. I really enjoyed talking to you.

Hey, Chris, here again. I hope you found this episode valuable. Now I have one more thing to gift you. We have a page for my coaching clients where you can get a free copy of my book as well as much more from previous guests on the show. Just check out nextlevelincome.com coaching to get a free copy of my book, audiobook and much more. I'll send you a copy of my book and cover all the shipping costs as a thank you for listening to the podcast. Also, please like share and take just 90 seconds to give us a rating on AFF whole podcast.