How To Become A Millionaire By Investing In Intrinsic Value With Paul Moore

You're not going to want to miss this episode of the Next Level Income show with Paul Moore as he shares more than two decades of experience investing in commercial real estate. Stay tuned. Today's show is sponsored by Money Insights and their investment optimizer strategy. In my book, I share how I use the same strategy starting over a decade ago to invest my money in two places at one time. This strategy has been used by the wealthiest for generations for estate planning, minimizing taxes, preserving wealth and increasing stability for their investments. Now you can do the same thing. In addition, you can build a plan to build an emergency fund, pay for college, fund a business plan for retirement, and ultimately optimize your total financial picture. To find out more information, check us out at the banking link@nextlevelincome.com welcome to the Next Level Income show where it's our goal to raise your income, investments and your life to the next level. I'm your host, Chris Larsen. You can get a copy of our book for free@nextlevelincome.com just click on the book link. On today's show, we have Paul Moore. Paul is the founder and managing partner of Wellings Capital, a real estate private equity firm. Paul's the author of the Perfect Investment. Create enduring wealth from the historic shift to multifamily housing as well as the forthcoming storing up profits. Capitalize on America's obsession with stuff by investing in self storage. Paul Moore, welcome to the show.

It's great to be here, Chris.

Absolutely, man. I'm excited to have you on the show. We've had had some conversations and I read your book a few years back and I know we have a lot of friends in the industry that go back, you know, like, like a decade now. So I can't tell you how excited I am to be here. And you, you, you're right there, right near where my grandparents has spent the last five or so years of their lives in Lynchburg, Virginia.

Oh, yeah. Wow. Well, so near hokey land, right?

Absolutely. Oh, yeah. I've been through Lynchburg many, many times in my life.

Yeah, well, it's, you know, we love being here. And of course, I think I told you before, we also vacation in your town as well. So we love Asheville.

Absolutely. And they're both, I mean, again, I think like central Virginia is, you know, it's just this little hidden gem for people that don't know it. So I won't talk too much more about it. So it stays that hidden gem. But Paul, for people that don't know about your background, maybe share a little bit more about how you ended up in Lynchburg and also what you did prior to getting into real estate.

Yeah. So I got an engineering degree, which was my first mistake. And then I got an MBA from Ohio State and went to Ford Motor Company. I didn't know anything about being an entrepreneur. I loved Ford, but I just found myself continually, like, trying to piddle around with stuff in the evenings and weekends. And I realized, you know, I'm an entrepreneur at heart. And so my buddy and I, who felt the same way, quit, and we started our own staffing firm in Detroit. And I was eventually finalist for Michigan Entrepreneur of the Year. That got some attention. We sold the company, and I found myself with a couple million dollars. And I really didn't know what to do with it or my life. And I was, you know, it was the late knees. I was wondering about Y2K and all kinds of stuff. So we moved from the barren flatlands of Detroit to the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia. We bought 120 acres on top of a mountain. We invited some friends to move in next door. We started this International Student, a nonprofit organization to give students a farm experience in the Blue Ridge Mountains. And that was fun. And I got into flipping houses, then flipping waterfront lots at Smith Mountain Lake. Building houses, did a small subdivision. Kris, I always wanted to get involved in. I mean, I didn't always, but I often wondered what it would be like to be in commercial real estate. I knew the wealthiest people in the world would were in commercial real estate. At least they sustained their wealth that way. And I didn't know how to get into large multifamily and all that. And so when I finally stumbled into it from building some apartments in North Dakota during the Bakken oil boom, I just love. And that's where we stayed in commercial real estate, Man.

My grandparents, they had a farm there just outside of Charlottesville. And engineering, mba. I feel like I'm, like, listening to myself. I'm just a couple years behind you, though. Yeah, right.

Tell them the gray hair.

I don't know. Okay. You sound young, so if you're not watching on the video, nobody knows any. Nobody's the wiser. Right? Excellent. Well, I became familiar with you, Paul, because I read your books, and your first book was about multifamily real estate. So what? I took a lot of inspiration from that. I read, I don't know, at least a dozen books before I wrote mine to kind of. They were in and around the multifamily space to kind of see, okay, like how, how do you do this and how do you put your own spin on it? So I loved your book. I know we have some, you know, similar mentors kind of in the area, but maybe talk about your experience kind of educating writing the book. What made you decide to go that route?

Well, you know, I have a lesser known book from 2008 and that was preceded by There's a guy named Perry Marshall, and he's an online marketing guru. He and I became friends. He wrote the definitive guide to Google AdWords and then the ultimate guide to Google AdWords back in the early 2000s. And I saw how famous he got and how, you know, he was able to, I mean, he went from really nothing to pretty famous, like as an online marketing guru. And I noticed other people that wrote books did that. And so after going through 37th parallel, incredible mentoring coaching program, I took everything I learned from that, plus my own experience managing our North Dakota quasi apartments, quasi hotel projects. And I basically said, you know what? I need to write an e book. And then the ebook, sort of like the first book I had written years before was I wrote a book on Smith Mountain Lake real estate. I think I skipped that.

Oh, I missed that.

Yeah, yeah, I wrote that in 2008 and actually that the definitive guide to Smith Mountain Lake real estate. I mean, I. Chris, I literally think I made over a million dollars in commissions, easily over a million from that book. Because people go, well, if I'm going to get a realtor at Smith Mountain Lake, I want to get the guy. And it turned out to be the team because I don't do real estate at Smelt Night. But it turns out to be, you know, like, I want to get the team who wrote the book. And I actually had done real estate Smith Mountain Lake, you know, right up to 2008. And that's when I wrote the book and I stepped back into owning the company. And so basically that was just such a boom. I thought, well, I'll do the same multifamily. And so I wrote an ebook. And then the ebook just kept going and going and expanding. And, you know, honestly, that's a testament to Dan Chamberlain, you know, the guys at 37th parallel, because they taught me so well. I mean, look, I had already owned and operated multifamily for a long time. And I think I shared this with you before. I didn't even know what a rent roll was at the end of owning that property because we just, you know, it was just, it was just to us, it was A list of tenants.

Right, right, right. Yeah. Oh, no, it's phenomenal. And, you know, that's. You know, we share that same background. And I started. I often tell the story about starting as an investor with that. And I always tell people when they ask for advice, like what? Know, what should I do? I'm like, you need to find a mentor. You need to find somebody that you can learn from, because otherwise, you're paying and making those mistakes. Well, I'm intrigued, though, by the North Dakota property. So tell me a little bit more about it. How big was it? Why did you decide to. I mean, I know about the Balkan oil boom out there, but who did you work with out there? Did you fly out there and just find a builder? How did that all work out?

Yeah, so to. To summarize, my buddy and I invested in oil and gas there in 2010. And I'm going to take a quick sidetrack here. Investing in oil and gas is great, but let's face it, it's speculation.

Absolutely.

And true wealth can be built from speculation, but more reliable wealth can be built from investing. Speculating is when your principal is not safe and you have a chance to make a return. Investing is when your principal is very safe. Not completely, of course, but very safe, and you have a chance to make a return. Paul Samuelson, the first economist who got the Nobel Peace Prize, and Chad Doty quoted this, he said that true testing should be boring. Investing should be more like watching paint dry or watching grass grow. If you want excitement, take $800 and go to Las Vegas. So I took that to heart, and I. When we lost a lot of money throwing it to the bottom of a hole in the ground in North Dakota that did not produce the oil that was expected. You know, it hurt. But my buddy and I noticed that there were thousands of job openings, and there were people living in their pickup trucks and in their cars, even in.

RVs in the cold, making like 150 grand, right? Like, they were killing.

Making a massive amount of money, and they couldn't find a place to live. I mean, literally. And so in the summer, some of them were camping. In the winter, some of them were. I kid you not, they would pull these old campers up there. Some of them started fires in the living room to stay warm because we're talking 40° below, you know, wind chill and all this stuff. So. So we quickly. I mean, literally, Saturday morning, I got a piece of property under contract. I think it was 75 acres for $2,500 an acre. There was no rights with it. And we started building multifamily cabins on this. We put together these big fourplexes and we did like 11, four plexes and then a whole bunch of duplex cabins. And we decided we were going to build it really high end. We had granite and nice cabinets and really nice everything. So that when oil prices took a dive, we didn't know if they ever would, but we thought that they. We wanted to be the last one standing. Well, we did that for a number of years and oil prices were still about $100 a barrel. We tried to sell it, we sold it for a great profit. But here's the funny thing along the way that I hadn't really realized we were there. You know, apartment rentals across the heartland, you might say that they run, yeah, somewhere around a dollar per square foot per month. So a 900 square foot apartment might rent for around, you know, B class. $900 a month, for example. We were so a dollar a square foot. We were renting for $13 a square foot and staying almost full. Now, that included utilities, Internet, water, sewer, cable and all that stuff. So it was furnished and utilities pay. But we were basically charging $4,000 a month for a 300 square foot furnished apartment.

Wow, that's incredible. That's incredible. Yeah. My uncle lives in Colorado and he's told me similar stories about groups that were out there during that time. Yeah, it's amazing selling the picks and shovels, right?

Yep, that's right. That's exactly what our motto was.

Yeah. So when did you make your. So that was your kind of your first foray into multifamily, Paul?

That was the first foray into multifamily, and I exited. We actually built a Hyatt hotel. My business partner did, and my business partner's a really, really smart guy, but got caught with the oil price downturn and all that happened after that. And so it did not go well. So I decided I wanted to stay in multifamily. And that's when I discovered 37th parallel.

Yeah. Well, I love your expression that investing should be boring. And I tell investors a lot of time, like, listen, this is kind of like the Warren Buffett strategy of real estate. And I use Warren Buffett because he's kind of a boring guy. Value investing is kind of boring. But I'll tell you what, for somebody that's averaged 20% over his investing career, it's pretty incredible. So I'll take boring when it comes to that.

Yeah. I'm actually writing my Fourth book, it's called Warren Buffett's Rules for Real Estate Investors. And that's one of the points of the book, is that his life is horrendously boring. In the last 75 years of his life, for the most part, I mean, I couldn't. I can't imagine tolerating a week of his life. It's reported that Jeff Bezos asked him, they said, well, why doesn't everybody just copy your strategy? It's not that hard, Warren. And Warren apparently chuckled and said, no, no, people don't want to get rich that slowly.

Yeah, it's great, though. And you listen to him. The thing I love most, aside from all that about Warren Buffett, is he's. Now, do you remember exactly, he's in his 90s.

He's 90 and a half right now.

Yeah, he's in his 90s and he's still going. And he eats McDonald's, he drinks his Cokes. And yeah, it just, it cracks me up, but I love it. The guy's. I mean, hey, if you're 90 and you've done that well over that period of time, he's got something figured out. So you focused on multifamily for a large period of time. And we could talk a lot about that, but that's not your primary focus today, is that right?

You know, Chris, is my wife listening? No, seriously, my wife. And I promised my wife I was a dedicated shine object chaser. In fact, I. If you had, you know, you missed. I didn't go over about 15 years of my biography, but in addition, all the stuff I said, I did. I started a wireless Internet company with a business partner called Bakken Wireless, worked on other subdivisions. I did all kinds of stuff, and some of it went really well and some of it was terrible and lost money, like the oil deal I told you about. And so I actually promised my wife, I said, look, I am sticking with multifamily from here on out. If you look at the demographics of multifamily, if you look at, you know, look down the road the next several decades at the population and the immigration and all the statistics that would make us think multifamily is the place to be, well, I was committed. I'm going to stick with multifamily. And so after beating our head against the wall for a number of years looking for deals, and after becoming suspicious when I saw some multifamily syndicators actually raising a whole bunch of extra money as part of their raise just to pay investors their returns for the first couple of years and thinking, well, that be illegal, but I sure don't want to use that as a business strategy. Counting on rents to go up just to break even. I don't that's a good idea. And so we started wondering, what is it out there that looks like multifamily maybe 20, 30, 40 years ago? What kind of assets have a lot of value add left on them? And though we didn't know this term or we didn't think of it years ago, I will say now where is the intrinsic value? Because look at Buffett's strategy as we're working on this book. He looked for stuff that had an extrinsic value, which was the share price or the value of the company with an intrinsic value. In other words, a hidden value that was far higher than that. And when find that. And I've got a whole story about how he did that with Burlington Northern and Apple. When he did that, he was able to create incredible value self and shareholders. And so again, looking back, didn't really think of it this way four or five years ago, but looking back on it, we were looking for intrinsic value that exceeded extrinsic value. And we found that in a couple asset classes that were similar to multifamily but different. One is the other multifamily. You remember the other white meat, which was pork from those advertisements, right. The other multifamily is mobile home parks. And then the other type that we found that we really like is self storage. And we really have found that there is a lot, there are a lot of mom and pop owners that have already gained incredible traction from the fact that cap rates are cut roughly in half in the last decade or so. And so without doing anything other than being mediocre, they've effectively doubled the value of their properties. They have the desire or the resources or the knowledge to improve their properties and increase income. A great operator can pay them top dollar for what they have and turn around and potentially double or even quadruple the value of the equity. Not the asset, but the equity using safe leverage by acquiring from a mom and pop. And here's the thing, about 85%. Okay, so we believe, though we haven't proven this number, we believe that about 93% of multifamily above 50 units is owned by companies, companies that have often already run the value out value add out of their properties. But about 85% of mobile home parks and about 50% of self storage are owned and operated by mom and pop operators. There's a Lot of intrinsic value there that hasn't been tapped. And so we are partnering with operators who know how to tap that value.

No, I agree. And my uncle, small business owner I mentioned he lived in Colorado 10 or so years ago, we started looking at different businesses to buy different opportunities out there. And that's what he always said. He goes, chris, you got to look at these mom and pops. And he preached and told me how to do that. So I agree with that. And it is amazing. I've been underwriting some mobile home parks around the Asheville area with some operating partners that I know here. And it's the same thing. It blows your mind when you walk around and you see the lack of maybe, I mean, you kind of mentioned it, you know, the lack of effort. Right. They just don't want to do it. Or maybe it's the knowledge. Exactly. And that's what we were looking at. One and the owner, they got into it, they said, hey, this is a great spot. They don't want to do it, they don't want to be in it, but they've made money because of that cap rate compression. So they're happy to sell it at a profit and do that. So you mentioned a lot of different stuff, Paul, and I mean, I'd love to just sit here for an hour or two and just have you go through.

Yeah, I would just teeing you up to invite me back.

Well, we can make that happen. Yeah. So when is your. Well, in anticipation that when is your book launch?

So my new book is called. I'm forgetting the name of it. It's called Storing up Profits. Capitalize on America's Obsession with Stuff by Investing in self storage. Biggerpockets Publishing supposed to be out the end of October 2021. So about. What's that four or five months from now? The Warren Buffett book. I've got two potential publishers, Morgan James and Biggerpockets. And once we decide on that, we will launch that book by. You know, usually it takes about 11 months once you get a publisher signed. And so I'm guessing late 2022, even though the book manuscript is almost done.

Gotcha. All right, so October 2021, Bigger Pockets publish and they can check out your current book and then, yeah, we'll have to look at next year having you come back on and talk a little bit more about your upcoming book. So kind of circling back there, Paul, though, what was your favorite deal that you've done outside of. Yeah, I guess it could be the multifamily space, but what Was your favorite deal out of all those that you did from an investment perspective.

Man, I'm so disappointed. I've got a podcast called how to Lose Money Me and I thought you were going to ask me about my worst deal, but that's a joke, so I said favorite.

I didn't. It's not one. It's not which one made the most money.

Worst deal. Okay, great. Well, no, no, not, no, seriously, my favorite deal is I'm actually like, I'm juggling two or three right now in my head. One of my. So one thing I learned about as a syndicator is especially since December 2017, the depreciation, the bonus depreciation derived from the new tax law utilizing cost segregation to get there is almost mind boggling. And I can't even believe even looking at my own tax return. I'm just shaking my head, can't believe it. And I don't know if it'll stay around forever. In fact, I'm pretty sure it won't. But what a benefit right now. So I'm thinking about a deal last year in that realm. Let me tell you about another deal. So it was January 2019, no, January 2020. And one of our operating partners invited us to go to Louisville, Kentucky to visit a mobile home park he was doing due diligence on. So my business partner Ben and I got to Louisville and we drove around a 310 or so space mobile home park in Louisville. There were about 50 vacant pads and it looked like it was fairly well run from the outside. Then our operating partner joined us an hour or two later. We went inside and he told us privately what was going on there. Number one, the owner had passed away sadly about five years before and the owner's spouse had never been to the park, at least in that five years. So counting on a, an expensive manager she hired to manage it. Now that manager was motivated by just keeping it afloat. And they had the cap rate compression thing when we talked about. So she didn't need to fill those 50 vacant spaces, which is really expensive do by the way. We can talk about that if you want. She didn't have a motivation to do anything to dramatically improve income when she said they needed a new maintenance person, you know, it was, it was granted to her because basically this was a cash cow to the owner. And you know, I'm glad for her. We, my business partner, our operating partner, I should say paid $7.1 million for this mobile home park. And that was about half equity, half debt. So remember that number three and a half million or so in equity, 50 leverage. Now they went in and the first thing they did is they said, well, rents are 35% or so below market. Remember that manager didn't have the motivation to raise them much. And this operating partner said, yeah, you know, we're not going to raise rents 35 on a mobile home park, even though the neighbors are all that much, then they could do it. That's one of the things they love, we love about mobile home parks is the tenants are really sticky. They tend to stay, they don't tend to spend $5,000 to move their mobile home. Now I think it's important to not take advantage of that. As an owner, operator, property manager, we can't just raise rents willy nilly and just expect these people on generally lower incomes to be able to afford an unexpected 20 or 30% jump. So he raised rents a little. Second, he dramatically decreased costs. And I'll just leave it, he just cut administrating and operating costs and got a better manager for lower, you know, more market pay. Third, they went in and they passed the utilities back to the tenants. If you can imagine this in a 300 space mobile home park, water, sewer, trash, et cetera, were all paid by the park owner. Well, that like $150,000 a year at a 5% cap rate. I'm doing the math in my head. I think that is about a $3 million increase in value right there if you assume a 5% cap rate on.

A $3.5 million equity raise.

Yeah, there you go. And in addition to that, there were other things, There was other value that was still there. So for example, he was just starting the program, fill those 50 vacant lots. Well, he had a plan for a three to four year hold and he was hoping to sell it for 12 to 13 or even $14 million at the end of three years. Lo and behold, six months later, a large operator came along, found this part and offered him $15 million. And he couldn't take, you know, he couldn't say no. So that was a 347% IRR at the project level and you know, took a 10 months total from acquisition to closing. The investor did well, the operator did well. And you know, I actually know the guy who bought it and I looked at it completely from his perspective. He did, he paid a lot, but he didn't do that bad because if he can fill those vacant lots and still his rent a little bit and do some other things that I recommended be done there, including taking a Couple vacant acres out front and putting self storage there on a separate. So I think he's going to do great. And so there's a lot of value to be had for buyers and sellers. Think about it every year. 1. I mean, somebody could argue that the tenants didn't win, but I'm going to argue they did because their rents are still below market and they have a nicer park than they had a year and a half ago.

Yeah, no, that's an awesome deal. I love that. I love that story and doing that. So, Paul, I mean, you've seen a lot over the past couple decades here as we look into the next decade. I know you've talked about looking at mobile home parks, looking at self storage. What other areas do you think are going to be exciting going forward?

Yeah, so I actually looked back in 2001 actually at getting into cell towers, and then I took another really hard look at it in 2014, and I think that is a great place to be. But it's so fragmented. Talk about mobile home parks being fragmented and self storage somewhat. It's just very hard to get into systematically unless you're the cell tower builder or you have a big. With a lot of resources. Another one that almost everybody knows about already is senior living. The statistics on seniors. You know, I'm not talking about assisted living. I'm not talking about skilled nursing facilities. I'm talking about just senior apartments. There is actually quite a wonderful demand increase for those. I mean, hey, look, for those of you who can see the camera, you can see I'm getting close myself. And the demand for these is tremendous and the returns right now are surprisingly strong. That's something we're looking at. We're looking at residential assisted living, though. We think that there's a chance that government regulation could turn that upside down as they have other things. And believe it or not, there's still a demand for very well placed, and I mean very well placed ATMs, and they're actually cash cows. That's not real estate. But there are actually real estate syndicators who are adding that to their portfolio. We're going to take a look at that as well.

Yeah, and they have awesome depreciation. I've looked into that space starting two, three years ago, and yet it is amazing what they can do, especially with the bonus. And you don't know this yet because the show hasn't aired, but we just. Our next podcast that's going out after this recording. So not when this airs, but after, when we're recording. It is talking about 5G and cell towers and that sort of thing.

Really?

Yeah. So he hit on a couple things. The gentleman's name is Hugh Odom, so I'll make sure you get that episode as well.

Oh, that's great. Now, if he is taking investments for cell tower land, I would like to at least learn about it, if nothing else.

Yeah, I think it's a. I mean, it's really cool. We actually have a couple cell towers not too far from our property. And we could, we could hear him installing the 5G. It's a really. It's interesting space we actually wrapped our house in. It's called Copperfleck. It's like a copper foil. So we don't get radiated by the radiation from 5G in the future.

Wait, your house is wrapped under or over the siding?

It's over it. So it's a big gold house. I'm joking.

I was going to say I want.

To see this, but it would actually be kind of neat. My buddy came in and saw it when it was under construction. He goes, chris, your house looks like a spirit spaceship inside. But now I learned about this and I'm a numbers guy, Paul. So I learned about this from a contact here in Asheville. And we were looking for air. Air purification systems. Yeah, basically. And this was fortunate. We installed these pre Covid, but kills, you know, all viruses, enhances the quality. And one of the, one of the products, he had it sitting there and it's, it was called, it's called copper fleck. So if you're interested in checking it out, basically what it is, it looks like aluminum foil, but it's copper. It's perforated, so it breathes. And what sold me is that because it reflects heat, it also has a really nice insulative feature. So when he shared it with me, told me about the cost and I looked at the energy savings, the product basically paid for itself. And I thought, well, what's the harm in installing this in my house is additional insulation and if it protects me and enhances our health. Now the downside is if I sit on my back deck, I get no cell service, so.

Oh, outside the house?

Yeah, if I sit behind my house because it reflects the cell. Yeah, the cell reception.

But I mean, we gotta talk, we gotta talk offline, man, because I'm drinking a carrot juice right now and I would love to know about how to get rid of 5G, you know, so as far as the radiation from it. But we can about that later. I can't wait to Hear how much it costs because we're thinking about building a house as well.

Cool. No, I'll share it with you and I'll buy you a carrot juice and I'll get a kombucha which I'm drinking right now.

All right, fantastic.

We can continue that. Well, one last question, Paul, before you share a little bit more information about where our listeners can keep up with you here. So if you could go back to your 25 year old self just a few years ago and give yourself a piece of advice, what would it be?

This might sound self serving, but I hope not. I'm going to try to keep it from not being that way. My business partner, the guy I did the staffing company with and the multifamily in the Bakken and actually he did the Hyatt Hotel, he actually ran for governor of Colorado years ago and he got to rub shoulders with some very wealthy people, including billionaires and stuff. And he came back to me one day and he, Paul, he goes, these guys, they, they have this kind of more or less the same education as us, the same iq, the same business savvy. I think I know what the difference is. I'm like, okay, I can't wait to hear this. He said they're much. The reason they're billionaires and we're millionaires is that they found a lane in their late teens and sometimes in their 20s and they stayed in that lane and they said no to 10,000 distractions along the way. And, and then we talked, Warren Buffett, he found that lane at 8 years old. Bill Gates found that lane as a teenager. Lots and lots of people found their lane and stuck with it and they said no to lots of distractions. So if I had to tell my 20 something year old self it would be first of all, jump straight into commercial real estate and that could be commercial, multifamily, self storage, mobile home, park towers, lots of stuff. And number two, stay in one lane and become an expert at it.

Super advice. That's super advice. That's got to be some of the top three advice I've had on the show. That's fantastic. And I fell for the same thing. I bought my first property at 21 and I had, oh geez, I'm blanking on his name at the moment. It'll come to me after the show here. But he wrote the book on how to. He was from Blacksburg, Virginia. Wrote the book.

Oh yeah, yeah, I got that book right here.

Yeah, big thick one.

I'm forgetting his name too. I Can almost see it.

It's on Ray, right? Ray Alcorn.

Ray Alcorn, yeah.

So Ray tells me. I call him.

He wrote a $600 book, guys.

Oh, it's crazy. Yeah. So he said to me, and this is the guy that wrote the Bible, he said, oh, go learn how to operate a building. I was like, okay, that's great. That sounds too slow to me. I'm going to go, you know, make money somewhere else. And if I can go back, I would do the same thing. And that's the advice I give to my younger coach in Clients. Clients. So, Paul, this has been a blast. We're definitely going to have you back on the show here. What's the best way for our listeners to keep up with you? Learn about your book that's launching here just in the near future, as well as your podcast.

Yeah. So like I said, I had a hard time figuring how to get into commercial real estate over the years, and we wanted to make it easy for people so they can go to my website and they can get a free course on how to get involved in commercial real estate investing. And that would be at Wellings Capital. W E L L I N G S wellingscapital.com and then put in resources. So wellingscapital.com resources. You can get a lot of resources there, all free, and we can connect with you more there.

Awesome. Thank you so much, Paul. It's been a blast having you on the show. Always great talking to you and hope you enjoy the rest of your time here this afternoon.

Same here, Chris. Thank you. It's been an honor.