Perpetual Family Banking with Blake Brogan and Rod Zabriskie

By utilizing the loan provision, you're able to actually have your money continually compounding on a guaranteed basis in your policy and use that those same funds to invest. So now you can have your money working for you in two places at the same time.

Welcome to the Next Level Income show, where it's our goal to take your income, your investments, and your life to the next level. I'm your host, Chris Larsen. If you haven't yet, get a copy of our book for free at our website, Next Level Income.com. that's www.nextlevelincome.com. just click on the book link and I'll even send you a copy if you p. On today's podcast, I am joined by Rod Zabrisky and Blake Brogan of Money Insights, and we're going to talk about the concept of the investment Optimizer. But even more so, we're going to talk about a concept called the Perpetual Family bank and how you can use this strategy to build generational wealth for your heirs as well as their heirs. Blake and Rod, great to see you both. Welcome back to the podcast.

Hey, thanks, Chris.

Yeah, so today we're going to talk about, in my opinion, one of the coolest strategies that you can use with life insurance. Life insurance. Not something exciting that a lot of people want to talk about, but we try here at Next Level Income and at Money Insights, where you guys are out there in Utah and Michigan, Blake, to really use this to provide additional benefit for investors. So, Blake, you're gonna. You're gonna kind of kick it off here, but before we do, Blake, you mind introducing yourself and then Rob, sharing a little bit about your background as well.

Yeah. So I, you know, learned about these strategies from a very young age. So I studied entrepreneurship in college and got. One of my professors was actually using insurance to fund his E commerce business and told me about it and, you know, kind of blew me away at the time. I also had no money at the time being in college, but as I, you know, graduated, started implementing these strategies myself. And really, this has kind of been my focus for the last decade, and I think I enjoy it a lot more now than I even did when I got started.

And you're fantastic. You've done some great work on the technical side with our investors setting up these policies. Yeah, I think you're the youngest person ever to buy life insurance, Blake. You got to be on your own volition. Am I right, Rod?

He was on Ernie, although he was. He was primed. His family is. Is in the insurance business. And so for him, insurance was never a, I don't know, a hiss word or anything like that.

Yeah. And Rod, you and I met. Oh man, this is going back to pre Covid.

Yeah.

And I've told this story multiple times, but my wife and I, I was, I found out my wife was pregnant. And the first question I had was, can we still go to Europe next year? You know, right after our son is born? And the answer was, yeah, we could, we could travel with him. It's actually great for you guys listening. Four month old is like carry on luggage. It's just, it's a great age to travel. You know, they're in their groove, they're sleeping through the night. My wife was breastfeeding, so it was really easy to take him along. And he was like the speed pass in Europe. Like, I don't know if people know that if you have a baby in Europe, it's like a speed pass. We're at the Louvre and we're standing at the Louvre in the heat and somebody walks up to us and says, excuse me, come with us. They take us down the VIP elevator. They say, you don't have to wait in line because you have a baby. We're like, this is crazy. We got in the number one restaurant one night. They're like, yeah, come on in, friends and family, press only unless you got a, unless you got a newborn. Come on in. It was crazy. I was like, this is the greatest, this is the greatest thing ever. But the next thing that popped into my head was, oh my gosh, how am I going to provide for this little guy? So my son's name is Ethan. And I went on this quest to figure out like, what's the best way to save. And what happened was I settled on cash value life insurance because it, in my opinion, it was superior to a 529 plan. I could have a predictable amount of money for my son when he reached college age, but I could also use those funds, you know, along those 18 years before he know, potentially goes to college. And then along the way, what we discovered was we could borrow the cash value out of these policies. And my wife and I started building spec homes in 2012, 2013. And I would borrow against the cash of our policies. I would buy a lot for like $50,000. We'd build a spec home, we'd make 100,000 and I'd pay off the $50,000 loan and we'd put the other 50,000 back in. And, and I'm doing my review with my agent at the time. And he said, chris, this is awesome. I wish all my clients did this. I'm like, why don't they? So I started learn. I started going and seeking out V, you know, some education ways to do this. And along the way, I was fortunate enough to meet you, Rod, and your partner at the time, Christian. So if you don't mind, share a little about. A little bit about kind of the origin of Money Insights and how you focus on working with investors.

Sure. So I'll start at my personal journey. When I was in college, I came across rich dad, poor dad. Right. Robert Kiyosaki.

Absolutely.

And that completely changed the way that I viewed building wealth and even just having a career and all of it. I wanted to be a business owner, so I got an mba. I had a couple of shots at businesses that didn't work out, you know, including with, you know, the Great Recession. And then I got into insurance, and that's when Christian and I met up. We started working together more loosely at first, but then we became pretty integrated, so that by, you know, 2013, 2014, we were in business and, you know, partners creating Money Insight, starting to do these. These things. And it really has turned out to be a huge benefit, because when you look at that kind of starting from rich dad, poor dad, all I knew is I wanted to be a business owner and. And invest in real estate and things like that. Right. But then to be basically in a place where we found a strategy that enhances all the investing that I wanted to do anyway, and then I could help hundreds and thousands of people across the country to do the same thing. Yeah, it's really kind of a really cool place to be. I just. I just can't. I could pinch myself on a regular basis because it's just something I'm passionate about, and I can help other people who are passionate about what they're doing to just make that all better.

Absolutely. Yeah. And what. What really drew me to Money Insights initially, Rod. And I don't know if I told you guys this, but I. I talked to a bunch of different groups because I'm like, okay, if my insurance agent doesn't really understand this, I need to work with somebody who does. And I talked to all these different agents, and they all said the same thing. They said, oh, so let's take your policies, and we're going to basically end those and start new policies with our company. And you and Christian looked at my policies and said, hey, look, Chris, we could start new policies. They're not perfect. However, let us Help you kind of optimize these and really make sure that they're working the right way. And I said wow, these guys just spent all this time talking to me, gave me all this knowledge and, and they're not going to make any money off me. So during fast forward Covid hits and you know I was, I talked to you guys and said hey, this is, this is fantastic. I have so many people that ask me what I personally do. And another personal story, my best friend asked me this question. He bought policies on he and his wife. And his wife tragically passed away from cancer. She was in the military and got cancer from the burn pits in the Middle east three years after she got these policies. And the proceeds from those policies allowed him to take time off from work. He moved he and his daughters to Asheville and really kind of rebuild his life. And I said man, I need to get the message out. So I got relicensed because I was licensed with State Farm way back in the day and we put a lot of terrific educational material out there and we got a book that we co wrote here. If you guys want a copy, email coachingextlevelincome.com and put money insights in the subject line and your address and we'll send you a free copy here of this. And so this is a continuation of this. We want to provide a little update on our investment optimizer strategy that we have on the website. And then we are going to talk about really kind of a new strategy as well because a lot of investors ask me, hey Chris, how do you teach one teacher, children all the lessons that you've learned and what is your plan for generational wealth? So we're going to be talking about a topic today called perpetual family banking. But before that, Blake, I know we got a great pot, a great webinar on our website, nextlevelincome.com forward/banking where you can check it out. But if you don't mind, Blake, give a little overview of what we call the investment optimizer and how this works in conjunction with, with investments that you're already making.

Yeah, so a lot of people before they implement the strategy, if you're investing for cash flow, especially if you're doing bigger deals right in multifamily and you gotta save up cash, typically people are saving that up in a savings, a checking, a money market account place that's not doing a whole lot for you. Then when an opportunity comes to invest, take that money out of the account, put it in the investment. Hopefully that does Great, Right. And where does that cash flow come back? You just put it back into a bank account. So one of the problems, problems that a lot of people have is their cash isn't really doing much for them in between deals.

Right?

So you're storing up, you know, you know, large amounts of, of capital. It's not really earning much for you. There's no tax advantages. And that's really where the investment optimizer comes in. It's really the optimal opportunity fund or place to store your cash in between deals. So what we're doing is before you route your money into the investment, we're setting up these high cash value life insurance policies. So it's not primarily designed for death benefit, although that's a significant piece to this, which we'll get into here. But you store your money in this high cash value life insurance and then as soon as you're ready to invest, you're able to borrow against that account to go out and make the exact same investments that you were going to do anyways. But the benefit, by getting it through the policies, your money is going to be earning a much more significant return, typically, you know, five plus percent return. It's safe, it's predictable, we know how the cash value is going to grow every year. And additionally we get a lot of tax advantages. So your money's growing in there tax free. And then we also have that death benefit, as I mentioned. But by utilizing the loan provision, you're able to actually have your money continually compounding on a guaranteed basis in your policy and use that, those same funds to invest. So now you can have your money working for you in two places at, @ the same time.

I love that you say and, and, and, and sorry about that listeners. In my book, I talk about this. Some of you may say, wait, that sounds familiar. In my third chapter I talk about my opportunity fund and this is the strategy I talk about, which is kind of how this was all, all born. And I said, well, like what are you doing with your money in between deals? And for those of you that are real estate investors, I want you to, to, because you guys are thinking, hey, this is kind of a nebulous concept or kind of abstract. We did a coaching call, Blake, you were on it last night. And I asked everybody, I said, hey, who has a mortgage? And every, you know, most people's hand went up and I said, okay, if you had cash, would you pay your mortgage off or would you keep the mortgage? And I said, put your hand down if you would, if you would Pay the mortgage off and nobody's hand went down. Everybody kept their hand up. And the reason is. So if you think about, if you have a $500,000 home and you put $100,000 in it, your home, say over five or ten years, goes from 500,000 to a million dollars. If you've been in the real estate market the past few years, Maybe it's been three years, but over time, maybe 10, 15, 20 years. The time period isn't what's important. The important thing is you keep your capital. You still own your home, the home still goes up in value, and then you can actually take the equity out of your home. You borrow against that equity, and you can use it in another place, but still own your home and retain the value of that going up. The big difference, and this is one of the things that we don't say about our investments, but these policies and the amount you have in those, and this goes back to the reason we set this up for my son for college, is the amount is guaranteed. You have a guaranteed rate of return in these policies. Right, Blake?

Yeah, exactly. So you're going to get a guaranteed rate of return. Then you also have the ability to earn dividends with the companies that were setting these up with, because they're mutual life insurance companies. And the companies that we work with are all, you know, A plus rated and have been paying dividends for 170 years in a row. Right. So they're really the most.

The IRS even was around.

Yeah. So they, they are the most stable, you know, financial institutions in place that you can be storing your capital.

No, I think it's. I think it's fantastic. And again, if you want to dive deeper into this, I suggest going to our webinar, nextlevelincome.com forward/banking. And Blake does a great job of outlining this. And he's got, he's got slides and some pictures that help will help you visualize this and do it. And you can see how you can actually, like Blake said, use your money in two places at one time. But one of the things that life insurance has and one of the things that I hear is life insurance isn't a great investment. And have you guys heard that? A few times.

Once or twice. Once or twice.

Now when I hear that, I say, I always talk to our clients, I say, well, I wouldn't really think about this like an investment. Sure, it has a guaranteed rate of return. You could view it like that. But the problem is if you ask my best friend, hey, what was the rate of return when your wife died. You don't want to be betting necessarily on that. So, you know, what we do is we structure these policies so you don't. You don't have to hope that somebody passes away so you get this benefit. You can actually be using the benefits over a period of time, and you can use the cash inside those. You're using it at two places at once. But, Blake, you said this. You said we actually minimize the death benefit. Now, that does a couple things. One, it reduces the cost of the insurance, and this is why a lot of agents don't prefer to do this, because they get paid less, because they get paid on that base insurance policy, the substantial portion of the amount. But two, what that does is it hypercharges. It increases the cash value very rapidly. Can you talk a little bit about why you would almost kind of reverse how you typically would structure these policies, Blake?

Exactly. So if you think about really any type of insurance you're buying, whether it's car insurance, you know, home insurance, business insurance, typically you're saying, okay, what coverage do I need? And then you kind of shop it around to say, what's the least amount of premium or least amount of cost that I can, you know, pay to. To get this coverage? Well, the same thing happens in life insurance. Familiar with term life insurance? Right. Basically, you're saying, okay, I need 5 million bucks or a million bucks if I die, what's the lowest cost I can pay for that? Well, with this strategy, we really take the exact opposite approach. So what we're trying to do is, you know, if you. If you understand the math behind the strategy, you want to try to get your capital into these policies before they go out into those investments. So we're really focused on the buildup of what's called cash value. That's like the investor component in there. And so to maximize the cash value, we want to minimize the insurance, just like you said, Chris, to. Because we want to get the least amount of cost, and we want to have our cash value growing. So you could set up life insurance policies that aren't even building the whole life or any other type of permanent insurance that aren't building cash value. You know, even for the first couple years, you could put money in and not see anything. Well, the way that we design it is we put our money in and then minimize the cost. So typically, you know, somewhere between 75 to 85% is going to land in the cash value in the first year versus zero. Then each year, as you Continue to fund it. You know, you might put a dollar in and have it grow by a dollar 30 that year. But the structure of the policy is just. And that's why, you know, I always. You want to be working with people who, who understand the strategy to your point earlier and are setting up the policies in the right way to maximize the investor piece.

Yeah, super important. So you have to work with the right, the right agent that understands how to structure these. You have to make sure it's with the right company so that you can actually put this strategy into effect. And then three, you want to work with a group that understands and can teach you how to utilize this on an ongoing basis.

Exactly.

That's what we are set up to do. Now, you know, you might be thinking, okay, this makes sense for me, Blake, who, like, who does this? Who is this not for?

So I would say the people who are, if you're primarily in, like, let's call it the accumulation mindset, which, you know, oftentimes that involves the stock market where I'm just going to max fund my 401ks, my IRAs, and I'm just going to build up this, this, you know, capital to eventually spend down, consume, and, you know, my, my beneficiaries get whatever's left over. This strategy is not really going to fit into that model. There can be some benefits, but typically the people who are interested in this are people who are investing for cash flow. So they, you know, just like we talked about on the call last night, and people gave some great examples of how they use their cash value to secure some policies yet some properties. It was some cool stories there. But if you're, if you're investing for cash flow and you're trying to have your cash flow, you know, be more than your, you know, monthly expenses, then this is going to be really the ideal strategy to kind of lump in. And there's so many benefits. And I know Rod's going to get into, you know, some of the ancillary benefits just even in addition to just having your money growing for you, you know, in two places at once.

Yeah, that's a great point. I've talked to. I actually had this debate with multiple financial advisors, and they're like, oh, like, I hate whole life insurance. You know, I advise my clients, don't do that. Buy term, invest the difference. Yeah, I said, okay. So, you know, your, your clients are going to basically accumulate enough money, their term insurance is going to run out by the time they're, you know, like, Rod, what's The average age that a term policy typically, like, runs out or doesn't make sense to buy anymore.

I mean, I think typically in their people in their 50s or 60s. And that's the way that it's like the supposed gurus out there will describe it. Hey, you're in your, you know, you're 55 years old and your term insurance runs up, and, you know, now you've built up all this other. Other, you know, value somewhere else, so you don't need it anymore. That's kind of the typical story.

Yeah. And then my counter is, well, okay, let's say I've been building my net worth in these cash flow investments, real estate, maybe. Maybe I do have some stocks or business and those sorts of things, and I want to leave a legacy for my family. I've taught my children all of these things that we've learned and looked at what the Rockefellers have done. I said, I want to generate generational wealth not only for my children, but also my grandchildren. And this is where the concept of the perpetual family bank has come in, Rod. So let's talk about this concept. So you start off, maybe you're in your 30s or 40s, and you're investing in these cash flow investments, and you say, hey, this. This makes a lot of sense for me, but what. What happens when. Now, maybe my investments have sold off, and now I'm using this income either from the investments or maybe even the guaranteed income that the policies generate. And that's actually something we skipped over. So maybe, Rod, you know, take over from there, talk about how these policies can generate guaranteed income, and then let's transition into how we can structure these for generational wealth.

Yeah. And that's actually the really cool thing about using life insurance. We don't pick life insurance because of these things. At least we didn't start there. It was the stuff Blake talked about, the. The very predictable returns working for us in two places at the same time, turning my, whatever, 10% return into a 13% return because of the extra value that we're creating there. Yeah, that's where we started. But then when you say, okay, well, now I've. I've lived a long life. I've built this wealth. I've created these. These streams of income that now I can live off of. And I'm so in. I'm in. I'm using air quotes. I'm in retirement. Right. A lot of our clients don't think of it that way because they want to keep being involved. But the point is, now you're living off of the proceeds of all this value you've created. Right. Well, it turns out you also have a lot of cash value sitting in that policy and you can turn that into tax free stream of income in addition to, to supplement all these other things that you've done as well. We call that phase two. So phase one is using it for investing. Phase two of the policy is using it as tax free income.

Yes.

During retirement.

Yeah. So these can actually be, and I talk about them, it's like a personal pension now, pensions. We, you know, I don't, I actually had a pension option with Medtronic, you know, years and 20 years ago when I started working with them. And I opted not to do that because I didn't plan on working for them until I retired. I got the pension, so I, I was just taking the, the match that I was getting from that instead. But, but how does that work? So you build this cash value. How do you get tax free. It's tax free income. How does that work?

It is, yeah. So the tax code is built to incentivize people to do things that the government thinks would be smart for us to do.

Yeah.

Well, one of those things is life insurance. In other words, you know, your friend, right. If they didn't have insurance or, or yourself when you were young and, and if you guys didn't have insurance, the, the difference is poverty or having, you know, the wherewithal to continue on, the family thrives and everything happen. Well, the government would rather not have people in poverty. So they incentivize people to have life insurance. Right. And one of those things is in the tax code, they say money that you put into the plan is after tax. Once it's there, it grows what you call tax deferred. That just means that you're earning this guaranteed interest and these dividends. But you don't get a 1099 at the end of each year to pay tax on what earned. It just, it just continues to grow. Tax deferred. Then when you access the money, we've talked about using loans to go and invest. Well, loans aren't taxable. We do something similar. When you're in retirement, you can access the funds without paying any tax and you'll build up a loan. Right. In this case, now, I'm not making any payments on the loan because I'm living off that money. Right?

Right.

So I let the loan accrue. When I die, there will be a loan balance that gets paid off. But guess what? It gets paid off with the Death benefit. And the death benefit is income tax free.

Yes.

So from start to finish, tax free going in. But everything else other, all the other access that I have to the cash, that's just all coming back out income tax free.

Yeah. So that's. I think that may be something that's surprising for people to hear. Hey, wait, I can get all this tax free. But we also, we inherently know it. So going back to that example of your house that went from a half a million to $1 million, if you borrow out the equity in your home, let's say you've paid it off. At this point, if you borrow out a half million dollars and your heirs sell the house for a million, they pay off the half million dollar loan and there's still a half a million dollars left over. So in your example, Rod, if somebody had a $5 million policy, they took out their million that they put in in cash, they took out another million in a loan, they don't even have to pay that off. The 5 million that the heirs get would pay off the $2 million loan and there'd still be $3 million left, right?

That's right.

Amazing. Okay, so we've talked about phase one, Blake. Rod, you've talked about phase two of this retirement income. Let's talk about phase three.

Yeah. So then phase three is you die and the death benefit pays out. Right. And you got to designate who your beneficiaries are. For most of us, it's going to be our family, but we, I mean, with a lot of people who are charitable minded. So it could be going to a charity or, you know, your school, your alma mater or whatever, at your church. And. But you get to designate where that goes now in the concept of what you mentioned earlier, this whole idea of perpetual family banking.

Yeah.

The idea is that we are teaching our children and you, you know, you've talked about it and live it like we see it right. In, in your, your newsletters and your posts. We, we see kind of you teaching your children, hey, this is what it means to build wealth. It's not just all about the money. It's not just all about, you know, being rich and all this. It's about having a wealth building mindset and community mindset. And so you're passing on values to them that you hope that they'll carry on and teach to your grandchildren. And there's this, there's this legacy that carries on from a value standpoint. And then you say, okay, but what about the money side of it? How is that going to pass on and how do I know it's going to do what I want it to do?

Yeah. So real quick, if you're listening, you're like, well, how do I teach my children some of these lessons? We got some great resources on the website. Check out nextlevel income.com kids. We'll put this in the show notes as well. I'll make sure we got that here in a second. And we got five tips on how you can teach your kids to be money pros. But. Sorry, interrupted you there, Rod. So, okay, so we taught them the lessons like, how can we use this strategy as a generational wealth building tool with the perpetual family bank. Yeah.

So you've been using the investment optimizer, and there's going to be death benefit that pays out. What happens to that death benefit when you die. Along the way, in addition to teaching the values, you're going to set up some structure around the money and how it passes on with instructions on what, what's to be done and, and what, what can happen is you might think about it like, oh, well, I've used the investment optimizer and then I died. Now that policy went away. And that's true. Right? The death benefit pays out. The policy is no longer there. We're no longer using it. But then the question is, well, what do we do and what are we instructing to be done with the death benefit when it pays out? Well, if you, if they take that money, your kids, your grandkids are taking that money, starting up new policies on themselves, built the same way that Blake talked about. Minimized, minimizing the insurance part of it, maximizing the growth, loaning against that to go out and continue to, to invest again, the very investments that they're going to do anyway inside of the trust, inside of this structure that you've set up. But now you have, as, as each generation passes, there's this additional fund money that comes into the picture and you just continually use that to build new policies. Again, not because the money's just going to go and sit in the insurance policies. They're using it. That's what the money that they're using to go out and continue to invest, continue to build on this legacy that you've created.

I love it. So going back to that $5 million insurance policy that we talked about. So what you're suggesting is instead of taking the $5 million and giving it directly to a beneficiary, you direct, say, your trust to use that money to start new policies, this could be Multiple policies, potentially. And then your heirs would have access to the cash value, just like you did with this strategy. And they would have the death benefit as well that comes with that.

Right. So the way I think of it is if you think about your. Your prototypical growth curve, kind of compounding growth curve, it gets steeper as time goes on.

Yeah.

So it looks like that, except then there are extra little spikes in there. Death benefit pays out, there's a big jump in the money, and then it continues on up the curve.

Yes. Yeah. So you're basically saying, hey, and this is one of the things I talk about. You know, our number one thing with our coaching clients isn't wealth. We have four different categories that we help them identify and their goals. The number one is health. And the way to think about this is if you can extend your investing horizon during your lifetime by living longer or extending that out. You're going to like Warren Buffett. He had his 50s before he was a billionaire. Right. And then he's just continued on as he's added zeros to those billions. You can basically extend your investing horizon through your children and even through your grandchildren and continue to do the things that the Rockefellers have done that Warren Buffett has done even just in his lifetime. Accurate.

Absolutely. Yep.

Yeah. Very, very powerful strategy. So, you know, again, we've talked about these concepts here today on our banking website, nextlevelincome.com forward slash banking. There is a link there if you want to schedule a call to learn more. You can also email me directly and we can set up a call with the team here at Money Insights. Just email me Chris at next level income.com and we can set up a free strategy session for you and talk about what this would look like for you. And again, I think what's unique about you guys, Rod and Blake, at Money Insights, is that you're actually doing this yourselves. Right. Rod, you and. You and Christian have businesses and you're. You're using the strategy yourselves. Is that right?

Absolutely. I. I mean, I don't. I mean, I use it because it works and I teach it. I. That's why I talked about earlier. It's a passion thing.

Yeah.

Because for myself and the investing, I'm doing the wealth building. I'm doing the perpetual family bank that I plan to create and just all of the above. And then I get to help other people do it. I mean, it's a. It's a really cool place to be.

Yeah, no, it's fantastic. And Blake, we've done this for, for dozens of clients now that have done this. Anything that you want to jump in and share here that we haven't covered here?

No, I mean, you know, as I think about it, it's like I have four kids already. You know, they're, they're young. The oldest is seven.

And that's just. And you're just getting started, right, Blake?

Well, hopefully, because I'm still three short of Rod, so he told me I need to have at least four more before I can take over the.

And I'm way, I'm way short of the buy in on this game. Yeah, I'm going to sit this one out.

It's not for everyone, but, you know, I have policies set up on them and it is fun. I mean, obviously I'm real early in this journey, but as you look at, okay, the policies that I have set up on myself and I have set up on my wife and, and what could those turn into when you look at the illustrations, Obviously we're looking, you know, 40, 50 years down the road, but then also thinking, okay, raising my children to, to understand some of these wealth building principles, knowing that they're going to receive, you know, seven, if not eight figures of wealth, understanding some of the things that you can do with a trust, and dictating that this can, you know, move to them again. I already have policies set up on them as well. And it's just like, it's so cool to think that you can set these things up for your, your grandchildren, your great, great. Your great grandchildren. Yeah, it's like I may never even see. Be here alive to see that, but you can set your family up just using some basic structures. It's really not all that complicated and almost guarantee that your wealth is going to, you know, do the perpetual growth as the, the spike on the compounding curve that, that Rod talked about. It's just so cool when you kind of start to dream about what this could become for, for the future generations.

No, it's fantastic. And it's really, it's what the ultra wealthy do. And that's the thing. I go, I go to these events, I go to these masterminds. And it's amazing how when we talk about this, they just shake their heads up and down and say, yeah, that's what I do. I was at an event in California here in January, and the richest guy in the room, he's worth nine figures, he's had multiple exits, he's. He's running a billion dollar company right now. And this, this topic came up And I was talking about it in front of the group, and I said, hey, does anybody do this? And. And he's talking about it. And he goes, yes, my son just borrowed against his life insurance policy, now his son's 13, to make a $50,000 investment into a multifamily real estate deal. And I was like, guys, did you hear what he just said? This is the richest guy in the room. And he. He just said, that's what he's doing. And everybody was like, what is he even. What is he even talking about? How did his son get all this cash value in his life insurance policy? So I love seeing examples like that. If you're listening today and you want to learn more, like I said, we've got tons of resources out there. Get a free copy of our books. Check out the banking link on our website to learn more, and you can also schedule a call with us if you want to learn more about how this might apply to you. Blake, Rod, it's always great to see you guys. Blake, it was great to see in person here a couple weeks ago. And Rod, I'll see you in a couple of weeks as well when I'm out. Thank you, gentlemen.

See Chris.

Chris.

Hey, Chris, here again. I hope you found this episode valuable. Now, I have one more thing to give to you. We have a page for my coaching clients where you can get a free copy of my book as well as much more from previous guests on the show. Just check out nextlevelincome.com coaching to get a free copy of my book, audiobook, and much more. I'll send you a copy of my book and cover all the shipping costs as a thank you for listening to the podcast. Also, please, like, share and take just 90 seconds to give us a rating on Apple Podcasts.