Strategic Retirement & Rebirthing New Beginnings with Anne Lester - Episode 86

Today's show is sponsored by the Airbnb Kickstart course. My wife and I started our first Airbnb here in the last year and we've come to love the ability to earn more money than we would if we had a long term rental. If you're interested in starting your Airbnb business with little money, scaling your Airbnb business, or just learning tricks about the industry in general, check out our airbnb course@nextlevelincome.com Airbnb BNB. That's Air the Letters BNB and you'll get a 20% discount code. On today's show, we have Ann Lester. Ann Lester is a retirement expert, highly sought after speaker and media commentator with over two decades of experience in all aspects of retirement. She spent 29 years as a portfolio manager and head of retirement solutions for J.P. morgan Asset Management Solutions Group, holding patents for her progressive design to simplify and automate the retirement planning process. She's a regular commentator on an array of retirement issues for industry, for the rank and file and with public public policy through traditional media outlets and social media, including cnbc, Bloomberg tv, the Wall Street Journal, and the New York Times. Ann Lester, welcome to the show.

Well, thanks for having me.

Absolutely. Yeah, we were just talking. We got, we got a snow day here in Asheville, North Carolina, and you're all the way up in Princeton, New Jersey, and you guys got less snow than we did.

We're getting a few flurries, but nothing's sticking, so hardly seems fair if you ask me.

But yeah, I'm looking at like a foot outside right now, so. And I just got back from Salt Lake City and it snowed more here while I was there. But yeah, it's, it's, at least we get a little winter here. That's what I can say. But, and I'm excited to talk to you today. We share a lot in common when it comes to, you know, helping the next generation and talking about how people can, you know, retire, achieve financial independence. And I'm really excited for you to share a little bit more about your experience and how you got to this point. So maybe you can share that with the audience before we get started here.

Sure, sure. So I had, I guess, a pretty rocky start to saving in general. I pretty much made every textbook mistake in the book in my 20s and even early 30s and really struggled to. I mean, I was, we, myself and then my husband and I were really living paycheck to paycheck into our 30s and I really, really hated that feeling. And you know, it was. I don't think we did anything in air quotes like stupid from my cashing out of my very first retirement plan, which was stupid, but we just, you know, were young professionals, had a baby, we're paying for childcare, had a house. You know, I still remember talking to our real estate agent who was telling us when we bought our first house in 97, and she was like, oh, you can afford whatever it was. And I'm like, I'm not buying that big a house where I'm pregnant. We. I'm. I may work. I don't know. Like, we're not buying as big a house as you tell me we can. But even so, it was, it was, you know, it was a lot. And then the roof needed to be repaired and this and that. So, I mean, it's just always a stream of stuff. So, you know, I didn't really personally curious about saving until I actually started building target date funds for other people to save and started learning about behavioral economics and how our own wiring can get in our way. So for me, it was very much a wow, I need to understand why I'm doing this stuff, to help me create some rules and some structures around myself so I don't keep doing it. So that was huge for me.

Yeah, no, we talked about this on a podcast a couple months ago, and a lot of people, they start, they're like, okay, I'm supposed to do this, this, and this. But we don't start with why we have feelings around money and why we're making these choices. And you said a couple things in there that I'd love to get into. And I think that one of the things is as I work with some coaching clients and as they become more successful, there's like one of my coaching clients, he's doing very well. He's single, he's got all his expenses covered, and he doesn't like to spend money on a massage. Even though he really, really enjoys it, he still has this feeling of guilt. So it's interesting that there's a savings component. There's also a spending component. You also said something about living paycheck to paycheck. There's a lot of high income earners. You know, they save. Even they're saving with their 401k. At the end of the day, they're like, I don't really feel like I have any money because I'm not seeing anything. So how did you personally go from that paycheck to paycheck experience to bridging that Behavioral gap into getting to the point where you are now.

So a big step for me personally was just understanding that it, I mean, I don't know if I really believe this, but I've heard people say, and it certainly explains me to myself that they're like spenders and savers. Like if you want to put people on a spectrum, like people tend to fall on one side of that line or the other. I am a spender. Like you give me a sum of money. It was true when I was 10, it's true now. It's like, oh goody, what can I do with this money? It's the first thing I think, right? I could do X. And to me, money is something that helps you live a good life. It is not like I score with money. I don't, you know, it doesn't make me feel safe to see big piles of it in my accounts. Like for me it is there to be used and enjoyed. And the trick is to make sure, understand the future needs I will have for that money. Right. And my family and you know, my husband and I talk about this but you know, neither of us, neither of us, I guess, you know, we, we both grew up kind of affluent enough not to have money be a worry in the house. And so, you know, certainly classic middle class. But you know, we weren't, we didn't go hungry. And you know, there were certainly moments when, when it was like we can't afford that. But it wasn't, you know, no, no vacations, no nice trips, no nothing. Right. It was very much a sort of considered thing. But there always seemed to be enough money to do whatever my parents seem to want to. I didn't hear those conversations about we should, we shouldn't. So part of it I think is just not learning that you say no to some things so you can say yes to others. And I just didn't hear that. But for me, the most important thing was understanding that my struggle to save wasn't because I morally bankrupt person or a bad person. Right. Because I kept blaming myself, right. And feeling shame. How come I can't, you know, we're earning good money. How is it that we still, you know, I'm juggling bills at the end of the month because I was the, I was the bill payer in the family or how is it that we're with these decisions when I'm making good choices, right. And it, I didn't understand that the sort of behavioral wiring that, you know, today is more important than tomorrow and you know, risk aversion and loss aversion. I mean, I invested other people's money quite well, I'd say, but I struggled my own because I'd still be like, I don't know if I want to put my money to work today, maybe the market will go down. I mean, it's crazy, right?

Yeah, no, it is. And, you know, I guess why, you know, why do you think it's so hard for people to save money?

I honestly, I truly believe we are wired to prefer what is in front of us over what is coming down the pike. I mean, there's loads and loads of academic research, right? Or there's the famous book about the marshmallow test, right? And it's just really hard. And I do also believe that people's wiring falls on a spectrum, right? We're not all cookie cutter people. We all have different sort of innate wiring, but we also have different behavioral. It's like the nurture versus nature, right? Some of this stuff is nature, some of this is nurture, Some of it is what you get imprinted with in your home. And it either reverses or causes you to oppose what happened to you, right? But for me, I do think a lot of it's innate. And again, I kept putting myself in the position of, well, I'm a smart person. I should be able to figure this out. I should have enough willpower not to write. And I didn't understand that. I'm just asking myself to fail if I create. I mean, I also like, and let's just say the holiday season is never good to me in my waistline, but, you know, it's like, you know, setting a big platter of cookies in front of me and then just saying, but I'm a good person. I'm not going to eat them. Right? I mean, come on, right? So I know myself like, it was. It was learning my own wiring and how I work and realizing that this wasn't a good, bad, you know, moral thing. It's just like, this is the way I work and I stopped it, which. So for me, it's the magic of making the money disappear out of my pay my. Out of my checking account. Right? Like, having automatic savings just changed our lives.

I love that. And I wrote an article a year, year and a half ago, and I call it my savings tax. So, you know, I think, you know, we talk about having budgets and, you know, I've been thinking about this for years, and it's like, I hate budgets and what's, what's, what's interesting, and I'M I'm that kid that, you know, would, would keep the marshmallow to get the two marshmallows. When I was young, I was a saver. I'd like stick stuff in the freezer, like candy bars and stuff like that. And I just, I was, no, that's just how I worked. Now my older son is not like that at all. So maybe I was wired that way. But I never found it fun to budget and I hate it. I hate tracking it and budgeting. So what I did, I said, you know what, I'm just going to like you said, we have our mortgage and we have the amount we're going to save and I call it my opportunity fund. And it would get sucked out into my opportunity fund. And then I get to spend what's left at the end of the month because that's like my reward. So that's what we ended up doing. And I even wrote, I added a chapter to my book, chapter three. And if you're listening, haven't got my book yet. Grab it on our website, nextlevelincome.com it's up there free under the book link. But how do you, like, what are some of the tools that you share with people and to do to create that quote unquote savings tax?

So I think you're exactly right. Some people budget and they, they're again, it's like to me, number one is understanding how you work and stop trying to fight it. Like lean into what works for you and figure absolutely rules or guardrails or bumpers or however you want to think about it for yourself. But think about how to compensate or take out equation stuff that you know, doesn't work, like putting temptation in front of me, I can tell you right now is a terrible thing. And it's like if I decide I don't want to spend money, which since I've stopped my formal employment, I'm like, I can't buy any more clothes. Like I used to like buying clothes. And I'm not, I can't go into stores because if I do, I'll buy stuff. Like I just don't go, I can't.

Buy ice cream and stick it in my house because I will eat the ice cream.

Exactly right. So it's like understanding these things, making a commitment and then, you know, every once in a while I actually do need to buy something. So okay, fine, I'll buy it. But so back to the savings and the money, I think, you know, and budgeting, right. I get trapped in the perfectionist Trap, which is, oh, wouldn't it be great to make a budget? And I can download everything out of my bank accounts for the last three years into a spreadsheet, and then I can create this incredible financial model and it's just like. And then I start thinking, yeah, but if I. That and, oh, I've got that investment over there and how do I pull that in? And if it's not updated, the price, well, then, you know, so I got to update the prices. Right? And then, you know, like, three months go by and I've got some, you know, mess on a spreadsheet. And so, number one, I think about buckets. Like, it sounds like you've got a bucket thing, right?

Just, yeah, buckety. Yes, absolutely.

The house and, and, and keeping the house running. Bucket. Right. And I, I put property taxes, because we live in New Jersey in its own special little indeed was the thinking circle of hell. But bucket. And then, you know, I think about, you know, discretionary. Non discretionary is, like, tricky because everybody has to eat. So food is non discretionary. But are you going grocery shopping at the local grocery store? Are you going to Whole Foods? Are you going to Aldi? Right. Where are you going to Costco? Where are you shopping? Do you go out at Aldi? Do you get takeout? Do you get to a restaurant with a white tablecloth? Right. There's just this range of expenses. But I think, I think bucketing needs versus wants versus desires, right, Is really important and making sure you are covering your needs and some wants.

Yeah, yeah. And Ramit Sethi talks a lot about this. I will teach you to be rich. He's like, pick what's important to you. Like, I'm not a. I'm not a car guy, you know, where I have friends that have multiple sports cars. So for me, I'm okay driving, you know, a used Acura, which is, which is a very nice car, you know, especially compared to what I grew up, you know, with our family, you know, but I would. I will happily go and spend, you know, a couple hundred dollars on a meal with our family because that's, you know, that's important to me. So I think, you know, you mentioned something about, you know, kind of feeling guilty or, you know, it's. It's like, I think you say, okay, this isn't important to me. I like to spend money on clothes. I don't, I don't really care, you know, about food. I'm, you know, I'm simple. I eat, you know, whatever it might be. But you got to look at your own situation, understand your own psychology. You know, and the Dave Ramsey advice, not isn't for everybody. You know, my plan isn't for everybody. And figure that out. So I think that's, that's really important.

You just said something really important, which is understand yourself. And then you talked about a couple of people's plans. And to me, like, all these plans work for some people and won't work for other people. But the most important thing is understanding what your values are and making sure that the way you're spending money lines up with your values and lines up with what you enjoy and gives you satisfaction. Right? Absolutely. I love that everybody's going to have a different definition of that. Right? But, but, and there's no right or wrong to any of it. But it, you know, to me, one of the things I'm most focused on and really passionate about is making sure people understand consequences of the choices they're making when they make the choice. And that's what took me like, 20 years to figure out.

So. Yeah, so, you know, taking that and so saying, okay, it took you 20 years. Now we have, you know, millennials and now Gen Z. I talked to an amazing number of, I call them kids because they're, you know, like younger than 25. What are, what are some of biggest mistakes that you see, you know, the millennials, Gen Z making, or just, just advice that you can give them so that they can, like, you know, I say, hey, let's, let's give you the shortcuts, guys, so you can get to where we are that much faster.

Yep. I'd say a couple things. And I've got, I've got kids who are Gen Z and sort of on the bubble of millennial, depending on who you talk to, where that dividing line is. So, you know, it's a subject near and dear to my heart. I'd say that first and foremost is not understanding the importance of avoiding catastrophe. And that sounds like a really obvious thing, but I would say avoiding catastrophe falls into the bucket of emergency savings and insurance. And I'm talking about thinking about renters insurance, and I'm talking about collision insurance for your car. And I'm thinking about medical insurance, which can be, can be a rough thing when you're starting out, especially if you don't have access to it through your employer. Right. That's a tough one. But not being insured will push you into bankruptcy. Not being adequately insured will mean you wrap your car around a tree, something happens. You don't have an automobile and you can't get to work. Right. I mean those are like life. Maybe not ruining but, but life altering in a sense or somebody I know apartment next door had a small fire in it and everything they owned was smoke damage insurance. They lost all of their. Now it's sort of. So it's like oh my gosh, my wardrobe, my clothes. But like you go out and replace.

Yeah. It's a lot of money and time. Yeah.

And people think about insurance as like a waste of money. And it's like it's money you hope you don't need. Right. You're protecting against the worst case outcome. I always say at least three months, hopefully six months of living expenses. Right. Of your net income. You just have to prioritize those things. After you get that done, then start thinking about the future. You should be saving for retirement and tax advantaged accounts. Then be saving. You should then work on paying off high interest rate debt. You should then think about other things like paying off your low interest rate, thinking about a house down payment, thinking about if you I A big mistake I see people make is prioritizing their children's education and 529 over their own retirement. Because that to me is again reflects a lack of understanding of the power of compound returns. Right. Because even a little bit of money into those tax advantaged accounts or even if you maxed out to the even taxable accounts right. In your 20s is going to be worth so much money in your 50s and 60s and 70s and people just don't see that.

I think that's great just knowing the sequence of how to do this and kind of the algorithm we talk about next level income, make more money, keep more money and grow your money. And in that keep bucket part of it is insurance and I think it's important I'll underscore this because I spent time working for State Farm licensed life insurance agent. The importance of having insurance to not get blown out. If you, if you so black. So if you, if you read the Black Swan, if you read some of. Oh I'm blanking on his name, the author at the moment here but he talks about don't get, don't get blown out. You know, you don't want to, you want to wake up and be able to play every day. And the thing is if you don't have insurance you're also making a decision. You're actually making a decision to self insure. And if you self insure then that means you're going to have to pay for any losses that you have. And I think a lot of people, they don't really think about that. So you are insuring, but you're actually called self insuring. And it's Nassim Taleb. Nassim Taleb is the name. So yeah, saying avoid catastrophe is great. Also the other point you make, I was just finishing a book on estate planning and trusts and the author made the exact same point that you made and which is, you know, prioritizing your children's education ahead of your future financial security. You're doing it, you're doing it backwards if you do that.

And it feels so wrong as a parent. Right. Because of course you want to prioritize your children. I mean, you would literally give them the food off your plate. Right. If they were hungry.

So usually depends on how they behave that day.

We'll talk about ice cream later. But. But you would. And, and so it feels absolutely natural to say, no, no, I'm taking care of my 401k before I'm taking care of their college education. But you know what, college educations can be paid for a lot of different ways.

Absolutely.

Including going to community college and doing two years there. Or, you know, name a bunch of ways and you can't pay for your retirement any other way.

That's right.

Okay. That's the ultimate self insurance. Right. I mean, it just is.

I love it. Yeah. So let's talk about that. So let's say. All right, so you know, we've covered, you know, covering some of the behavioral psychology, you know, the ways that people that are kind of just getting started out, some strategies that they can use. Let's say you're getting to the point and I've been through this in the last year myself, you say, okay, I'm ready to leave my job, I'm ready to leave my career. By the way, when you do something for a couple decades or more, two, three, four decades, and you know, Ann, it's a very anxiety producing event. So you talk about three things that you need to consider as you're getting to the point of quitting your job. Can we go through those?

Yeah. So I think clearly, how are you going to keep the lights on?

You know, maybe that's a good thought.

Really. Can you, can you? And it's funny because I don't know that one of my former colleagues said, how did you know you could afford to retire? And I said, it's a leap of faith. I mean, it really is a leap of faith. Right. So I'd say, number one, really make sure you understand where your cash flow is coming from. And, you know, in our instance, it's a combination of, you know, compensation. Obviously, my husband's working. Well, not obviously, but he is working. So there's that compensation. I'm getting paid out from my former job that's going to last a couple years. I had a sort of deferred compensation that's going to last for 15 years until I'm 70, and then I, I can get. Well, I will choose to turn on my Social Security. So that's kind of a wash. Right. And, and so that, that works out pretty well. It's, you know, how are we gonna, you know, if, if everything goes wrong, if my new gig, as it were, as an author and a speaker totally goes sideways and doesn't raise a dime. Right. Happens. Well, we've got our investments, which I'd really rather not touch just yet. So we have a big house we can rent out. There's a little apartment in it we can rent out.

Okay, That'll cover taxes, right?

So, okay, property taxes are covered. When I retired, we still had, I think, seven years on a 15 year mortgage because I was going to pay that sucker off before we turned 65. Like, I do not want mortgage debt in retirement. Just don't, don't, don't. So I'm like, all right, well, we got seven years on this sucker. And because it was such a aggressive payment, the payments were quite high. And I thought, manage your cash flow. I'm going to renegotiate my mortgage to 30 years. I do not want that high payment. However, I'm going to keep paying it until I decide that's a scary, stupid thing to do. So we're still on track to pay it off, but now financial planners would tell you that we should be investing that money in the market. And you know, in hindsight, that would have been a great trade. But yeah, cash flow, right. To me, cash flow is key. And if I know I can make my expenses, I am not going to be forced to do stuff I don't want to do.

Yeah, I, you know, and that's, that's one of my favorite things. I co hosted a radio show in college and I had this debate with a financial planner and she said, oh, get a 15 year mortgage, pay it off as fast as possible. I said, get a 30 year mortgage and pay it off as slow as possible. And she looked at me like I was crazy and I said, well, if something happens, you could have that money in the bank and keep doing that. And then as we saw several years later in the financial crisis, I had lines of credit and the bank just said, sorry, pay them off today, and you can't have that money anymore. So I love that. Managing your cash flow. That is such a great, great point.

Yeah. And I guess one of the other really, really important things for me is to understand before you take that leap of faith. And it was. It was scary, right? I mean, I left a job I love company, I really have a lot of respect for, and set off into the unknown. But the second thing is know where. And this is maybe the flip side of the coin about know what brings you joy and what you like spending your money on. Know where you're going to cut. Like, I adore travel and traveling as a JP Morgan executive, you get used to traveling at a certain level of comfort and style. Yeah, I don't need that. Right? It's nice. Yeah, I don't need it. And I mean, this is a true story. I said to myself, well, you know, I just need to make sure I have my own bathroom. Basically, like, I am not staying in a youth hostel with a bathroom down the hall that is like, that is that I'm not going there again. So I say this to myself, and my college roommate invites me to spend, like, a long weekend with her on this island in Maine that she's been going for years. And it's an artist colony, and it's fabulous. I'm like, sure. So I drive up, drive to the ferry. We're on the ferry, like, chug, chug, chugging, you know? And. And she's like, so I hope this. This place we're staying isn't humble for you. And I'm like, oh, it'll be fine as long as I have my own bathroom. And there's this little silence, Right? And she's like, well, there are only five rooms sharing two bathrooms. And I'm like, okay. She's like, it's really just like we're sharing a bathroom pretty much. And I'm like, okay. And she said, I really regret, though, that their pandemic protection money and electrified the guest rooms because I'm really going to miss the oil lamps. And I'm like, all right. Electricity is my new bottom line. And I already told her I'd go back.

I like it.

Such a great time. Right. So the bathroom thing is already gone. But it's like, understand where you're willing to cut.

Yeah.

Like, or the lifestyle build, but I don't need it.

Yeah. I'll make you feel a little bit Better. I did a three week trip on the Grand Canyon a few years ago and not only do you not get your own bathroom, you really don't get a bathroom at all.

So camping is different. Like, that's fine. You know, camping is what I. Camping is fine.

There you go.

But it's like if I'm in a hotel, I want my own bathroom.

I agree. I'm not going to argue with you there. I'm not going to argue with you there.

I adore camping. But yeah.

All right, so number.

I don't know if I did all my three.

I'm like, I think we got, I think we got one more. Yeah, I think we got one more. That was. People like to hear about our bathroom preferences. I think that's worthy of a little sidetrack. All right, so number three.

Number three. Honestly, I don't even know what to say. I mean, I think about this. I'm totally going off script now, but to me, you're getting what's inside my head right now. And what I think about is, and you talked about this as part of your proposition, right, to your clients, right? Where, what are your potential fallback sources of income? How are you going to generate more income if things go sideways, right? So I've got this vision of writing a book. I've got this image of being a public speaker. I joined a corporate board. I can join another corporate board, right? How are you going to. And I mean, maybe this is another thing in the same vein. How are you going to spend your time? What are you going to do with yourself? Because, and this is something I've talked a lot about, especially with, I think, millennials in particular. And I think sometimes the impetus to retire early isn't being drawn to do something. It's because you're running away from something else. And that's a bad reason. That's a bad reason to focus on accumulating enough money to retire. Like running away from a job or a career that you felt forced into or landed in and that you decided you don't love is a bad reason to, to retire. That's, that's a great reason to do some self reflection and figure out what you really want to do and go do that instead. And maybe you need the financial security to, to permit yourself to take that leap, right? Or maybe it's gigging as a paycheck. That's all good. But. But do not step off this cliff without a really good idea about how you're going to spend your time, because you will be really Unhappy.

I think you saved the best for last, Dan. I mean, you know, again, my personal experience, it's really challenging when you spend, you know, so much time and, you know, I think also culturally, you know, and maybe I'm saying this as a, as a male, but, you know, culturally as men, we define ourselves by, you know, our careers. And, you know, I'm a provider and I'm a father and, you know, you know, now, now even more, more so more and more and more women as well. Like, hey, what do you do? That's what we say when we meet people in America. And when you're ready to leave that and you're like, like, what do you say? Like, I've had people say, like, what do I tell people when I, when I leave? Like, what do you say? What do you tell people, Chris? It's like, well, that's, that's kind of, it's weird when you think about it in that aspect. So I think if you are able to take a step back, as you said, Ann, and reflect and say, what do I really enjoy spending my time on? And then creating a financial strategy to give you the flexibility to do more of what you love and do that. I hate the word retirement. I think if people had the financial ability to focus on their passions and do that, whether it's art or volunteering or writing or educating those things, you can make money doing those things and you can enjoy life. And what I found is the relationships you find when you do that are so much more enriching. And when people like Warren Buffett. Is it Warren Buffett that says, find something you love and you'll never work a day in your life? It's true, but you can still make money and do those things. So again, if you're looking towards retirement, think about other things you enjoy that you may be able to create income from. From layer those in. It'll give you not only meaning, as you mentioned, and it'll also give you an additional sense of security because you won't have to depend on one income source. And again, going back to Nassim Taleb, he talks about anti fragile being anti fragile. If you have multiple streams of income. If the market dips and you're like, well, you know what, maybe I'm not going to buy that new car or take that trip around the world this year. I'm going to travel locally, maybe go to a place like Asheville and do something like go camping or go camping. Absolutely.

I mean, there's a lot of things you can do now I think that's terrific sort of advice and thoughts. And the other thing that I think, you know, certainly working in the retirement industry for as long as I did, like we are going to live a real time. Certainly people today in their 20s and 30s, you know, have every reason to believe that they will live a rich, hopefully healthy life and into their 90s beyond. And so this notion of, you know, retiring, and I agree it's a terrible word, but stepping away from a formal relationship with an employer, let's put it that way, and redefining your relationship with the way you engage in working relationships and non working relationships, right, is really important because you're going to want to keep doing it. You're not going to want to drop it and like go do what, sit on a, sit on a porch for 30 years. Like anybody really like doing that to begin with. But like, especially if we're not gonna, if we're gonna be living into our 90s, that does not sound like fun to me. For 40 years.

Yeah, we're beyond, you know, it's like, it's crazy. I, I got a Dan Sullivan who started Strategic Coach, talks about how he's going to live to be, I think he says 156 and he's got a great book, My Plan to live to 156. But here's the point. Whether you believe you're going to live to 156 or 190, if you're healthy and you're 90 years old, how much longer would you want to live? And if you're healthy and you're 90 and you're still enjoying things and being productive, do you want to retire at 65 or 55 or 45, what are you going to do for the rest of your time? My grandfather retired at 55, lived to be, he was about 95, lives another 40 years and he worked on a farm for 35, more than 35 of those 40 years, which was longer than his career as an engineer. So I think we can have multiple cycles of productivity, of success, of quote unquote careers in our life. And you're just starting your career, your second, the second phase of what you're doing. So as you do that, we touched on a lot. But there's so much more that people can learn and if they want to stay in touch with you, if they want to learn, if they want to see your new YouTube channel, what's the best way to stay in touch and learn more from you?

Ann.annlester.com Ann, with an E A N N E L E S T E R. Perfect.

And we'll put that in the show notes.

Follow me on social media. Yeah, that'd be great.

Absolutely. And last question, which I'd love to ask our guest. If you can go back to your 25 year old self, we touched a little bit on this. What advice would you give yourself back then?

To be kinder to myself. Myself, actually. Right. To be less judgy about myself but also about other people. But really like, it'll work out. Okay, just calm down.

I love that, I love that I've, I've faced some, some, some challenges in my life and I can say that, yeah, you can be kind, know you'll get through it. Have the strength, surround yourself with good people. But yeah, be kind to yourself, be kind to others. And with that. And Lester, thank you so much for joining us and sharing your experience with our audience.

This was a great conversation. Thank you.

Absolutely. Hey Chris, here again. I hope you found this episode valuable. Now I have one more thing to gift you. We have a page for my coaching clients where you can get a free copy of my book as well as much more from previous guests on the show. Just check out nextlevelincome.com coaching to get a free copy of my book, audiobook and much more. I'll send you a copy of my book and cover all the shipping costs as a thank you for listening to the podcast. Also, please like share and take just 90 seconds to give us a rating on Apple Podcasts.