Where We are in the Real Estate Cycle with DJ Van Keuren

Today's show is sponsored by Money Insights and their investment optimizer strategy. In my book, I share how I use the same strategy starting over a decade ago to invest my money in two places at one time. This strategy has been used by the wealthiest for generations for estate planning, minimizing taxes, preserving wealth and increasing stability for their investments. Now you can do the same thing. In addition, you can build a plan to build an emergency fund, pay for college, fund a business plan for retirement, and ultimately optimize your total financial picture. To find out more information, check us out at the banking link@nextlevelincome.com on today's show we have DJ Van Curran. DJ is a member of the Forbes Real Estate Council, author of Real Estate Investing for Family Offices, the founder of the Family Office Real Estate Institute, the Family Office Real Estate magazine, and is a frequent speaker at family office conferences around the world. He's been published in multiple different publications including Forbes and the New York Times. And he is a past editorial board member for Real Estate Advisor magazine, is the past president of the Harvard Real Estate Alumni Organization and a prior board member for the Real Estate Academic Initiative at Harvard. Pleasure to have DJ Van Curren on the show today. Welcome to the Next Level Income show where it's our goal to raise your income, investments and life to the next level with your host, your Chris Larson. Get your free copy of his book@nextlevelincome.com book also, if you're an accredited investor, check out the Invest link to learn how to gain access to institutional quality real estate opportunities. DJ welcome to the show.

Well, thanks for having me, Chris.

Absolutely. Yeah, it's been, it's been a few weeks here since we saw each other out in Denver and I'm really excited to have you on the show. We talk, I mean, shoot, I think we talked over a year ago on having you on. So finally we've been able to make it happen and Covid is not really a good excuse. So yeah, I'd love to have you share with the audience a little bit about, you know, how you ended up where you are today, working with family offices. Before we get into some other topics here.

Sure, sure. So you know, it's how I got into real estate was sort of, it was actually quite interesting. So in the 90s I was an advisor with people. I sold that business at the in 2000, went to Vietnam and had a chance to co develop what's today the largest coffee company in the country. So what did here in the US we did in Vietnam and though I'm not still part of it, we got about 200 cafes, you know, throughout the country, which is pretty cool.

Yeah.

But decided to come back and this was in oh3 and I remember exactly where I was in Saigon and I'm like what am I going to do, want to do? And I said well I've always loved real estate. And so I raised some private capital, started buying single family home actually and started to position a portfolio as the first single family REIT. So I was about 10 years ahead, 10 years ahead of everybody. And you know, I'd go and look for these blanket mortgages and everything else and they didn't exist. It was like I had horns coming out of my head. And so it was, it's really quite, quite significantly to where we are today. So I'm a huge believer in real estate market cycles. And that was one, you know, the first book I read was Timing the real estate cycle and it was, it's an amazing, I considered it one of my bibles actually. And so I sold the portfolio and went back to graduate school, Harvard. And after I got out of there in a couple years I started working for a number of developers. One was doing accel communities throughout the U.S. and then I got asked to be part of a small team with one of the largest developers out of Mumbai. And I was living in New York at the time so we were buying luxury hotels and condos between 75 and $450 million. And so all my work was with any of the investors we worked with were the big boys. So the Carlisle's, the Goldman Sachs, the Blackstones of the world. And that's really where the background was. Obviously I'd worked with retail investors in the 90s and then here I am on the institutional side. So we moved out to Denver. I was out here for about a year and I hadn't anybody. So I was like, I need to start, you know, understand the community. The community was very open, armed. And I met a gentleman who had sold a yogurt for one and a half, about one and a half million. I just found out about six months ago that he signed the billion dollar pledge and that whole wealth was created in real estate. Now we did have, we were putting out about 100 million oil and gas. We had three people actively trading equities, parks, etc. But they were, they wanted to form a fund, they were in the middle of it and because when he dies all his money's going to foundation and has 80 people working for him. And so they said, DJ what do you suggest? And I said, well, you've got two options. You can either take it into the institutional market where I know everybody, or you're really a family office. So we can go in the family office. And I only knew two families at the time, right? I knew all the institutional players. I only knew two families. And. And so he said, okay, let's do it. And that's how I started into the space. And about a year Later, I knew 200 families. And, you know, off we went. And then I got headhunted by the Heyman family, who, if many of you know your perfume, Georgia Beverly Hills, came up with a boutique office strategy, sold off some assets, brought in some new assets, and. And then once that was stabilized, ended up doing some work with some other families. And we formed Evergreen Property Partners because I had been for years by families to help them on their real estate investing. The first family that we work with and we're still working with is the Marriott family. So during COVID we were looking to buy Distress Hospitality, and now, you know, we're investing on behalf of, of numerous families into opportunities that are available. And so that sort of, that got into. That's how I got into the space. And, and then like you wrote a book on family office real estate investing, started podcast videos and, and that grew into where now we have a magazine which we publish on a quarterly basis, Family Office Real Estate magazine. And that started the Family Office Real Estate Institute, with our executive education programs at the University of Denver and where we have professors from Harvard, Wharton and University of Denver and industry experts. So it's just sort of grown that way. And that's where the focus in real estate and families.

No, it's amazing to hear going from single families to this today. And just so to give the audience some perspective, what's the average net worth, if you, if you can say, of the type of family you work with, with the family office, you know, the.

Definition that we have with families are worth 250 million or more. And so, you know, and that could be up to 10 billion or 20 billion or whatever the case is. You know, there's a lot of families that. And it's funny because when you say somebody's worth $50 million, $100 million, it's really just ultra high net worth, which is weird to say, but. But you have a lot of the same exact fundamentals on people that are worth a million dollars than you do somebody worth $10 billion. So you're just adding zeros. Right? And to be Honest with you, where the complexity comes in is when you're dealing with the family members, where there's really issues that could happen. It happens all of us, if you have, you know, whether it's your parents or your brother, sisters, et cetera, but when you have a lot of money involved, it changes a lot of things.

Yeah. And we were talking a little bit before we started recording here today about some of those dynamics and strategies that can be employed before we get to that. So you mentioned families. They're generating their wealth in businesses. The Marriott, obviously, real estate. What percentage of the families are generating their wealth in real estate versus other businesses?

That's a, that's a good, that's a good question. So the average allocation in general is 22% to real estate.

22?

Yeah, from a portfolio. And that's actually been increasing over the last number of years because we track that through an annual study. We do. But you know, there's. Real estate is one of the greatest areas of wealth creation. And so in the five different type of investors that invest into real estate, real. That's. That's a significant one. Right. And even all these companies, you know, one day we'll look down the road, you'll be saying, hey, all my wealth was created, or some of the people listening, their wealth was created in real estate. And then all of a sudden they become this family office. Right. But it's just outside of their primary business. It's the second greatest area of wealth creation. Yeah.

That's amazing. And I think that's a statistic that a lot of your average investors, they talk to their advisors and they say, oh, put your money in the stock market, put it in bonds, do this allocation. I think a lot of people are surprised to hear that statistic. I've always said about 25% allocate to. We would call this DJ income producing real estate, like commercial real estate is accurate. We're not talking about single family homes typically. We're talking about, you know, commercial assets. Is that right?

Primary commercial assets, it could be anywhere from. And when we take it away from where they created the wealth and if it was just real estate, you know, obviously if they own homes, you know, maybe a couple rentals, that's obviously part of their portfolio. Right. Or if they've got a vacation home. But the real wealth is created by investing into larger assets, you know, the ones that you can't write your own check for. Right. That's. Real wealth is created and the value that's really added. And you know, there's two areas. You got the income producing, which is extremely important, and you've also got the appreciation part. Right. So sometimes people are depending on what they're looking to accomplish. Right. But those are the two categories. You know, the best, the best deal is when you have something that you can build the value either refinance out, or you've got cash flow as it's going through, or you get the building up and going and then you have the cash flow. Right, so you. Value creation and the income.

Yeah, no, I think it's phenomenal. So getting back to what you brought up, I was at a conference last summer. It was here in Asheville. So maybe chop is zero or two off the numbers you were talking about. That was the average net worth of these families. But, you know, mostly first generation wealth and the conversation and all the resources were focused around, you know, how do you bring the family and how do you get the family educated and make sure that the next generation is set up for success for these families that have created this wealth. And you cited a statistic in our prior conversation. I think it was 70% of. Of wealth is lost between generations. Is that accurate?

Yeah. So if you look at. So 70% of the wealth is lost by the second generation.

Wow.

90% is lost by the third generation. And shirt sleeves.

The shirt sleeves, right.

Fourth. Yeah. So you look a good. A great example is Cornelius Vanderbilt.

He's got his house. Right. One of his sons right down the road. The Biltmore right here. I can almost see it from my house.

Okay, so, so. And I don't know how far, how, you know, back, but this was in the late 1800s and he had probably about a two and a. To about $2 billion or so.

Yeah.

And when he.

Which is a phenomenal fortune back then.

Right?

Like phenomenal.

Yeah, that's so. So. And that's today's dollars. Right. So $2 billion, today's dollars. But still, when he, when he, he left a little bit to. He left the majority to his and the rest to the other, the other children. And actually the next person, his son doubled it. Right, Doubled it over the next 10 years. You go forward to 1971, when Vanderbilt had their first reunion, right? There's like three, 400 family members or whatever at Vanderbilt University and not one was a millionaire. And you look at that and it's like, wow, right? What happened? And that's a common theme, unfortunately. Now if you look at somebody else, and I forget his name, who actually did planning and had real estate, his.

Wealth continued on, well, Rockefeller was one that had the Rockefeller rules. And I'm like, okay, maybe I'll have the Larson laws for my kids. Right. Because I can't have the Rockefeller rules.

I like that.

Yeah. So it's like, how do you. And that, that's part of the reason we do what we do at next level income is trying to, you know, curate this information not only for others, but also hopefully for my, for my own family one day. So what are, you know, dj, what are some strategies that these, you know, these family offices are using to help, you know, promote generational wealth to, you know, whether they're giving it away or whether they're, you know, entrusting the wealth that they've built for generations and how, you know, what are some of these things that everybody can learn?

You know, there's a couple things I classify family offices when it comes to real estate in five different areas. You know, one is, see, they created their wealth. They have their own real estate company. That's where they created their wealth. The next one is that it's a Michael Dell, it's a, it's a Gates where they bring in professionals and they build their own platform. Right. Then you've got the third, which is like, we're going to buy our own properties and maybe I'll hire somebody to overseer, manage them. The fourth area and the fifth area is where they really, a lot, where they really, really rely on people that are in the day to day stuff that understands that the operators, people like yourself. Right. Because what the reality is, and I learned that three weeks in, I met somebody who, who is very seasoned in the space. And I said, trying to learn. Right, right. With, with families and stuff. And I said to her, I'll never forget, what have you been working on? And she goes, well, just got back from Israel and we had 60 families. I said, well, what'd you talk about? And she said, and this is what I've never forgotten. She said, well, you know, hedge funds 101. And I said to her, hedge funds 101. Exactly. That's how I reacted. I'm like, these people are brilliant, successful, they're, you know what I mean? They're smart people. What are you talking about? Well, the reality is, is that they've spent their whole life creating their wealth in chemicals or they built their wealth in tires or some industry. Now they have this money available to invest and they're that spend their whole life not only in private equity or venture capital, but healthcare venture capital. Not just that, but certain sizes Right. So how are they going to understand venture capital and private equity and real estate? Right. And then you got hedge funds and stocks and bonds, and then you get into real estate. And as you know, there's different types. Right. And it's different for multifamily than it is industrial. So one of the biggest things and the best things that investors can do is to partner and invest alongside. Right. Invest alongside somebody like yourself that can be out there. A lot of people don't realize, families included, is that the, the amount of work that it takes to really understand to find a deal. We were talking about this before. You're like, I think we finally found something. I'm like, let's get. Everybody's looking for something, right?

Yeah.

And for the same deal, it's just, yeah, we under.

We underwrote over 500 deals last year, and our hit rate was we got eight. So that's, you know, you're talking about one and a half less than 2%, right. You know, one and a half to 2% if we're lucky.

And think of all the money that was saved by not moving forward on a number of those deals where if you just invested to get it out and once you identified all those in underwrite, now you got to deal with, you know, somebody to make sure that the, the broken stove or the, with the doors and everything else. And, you know, are there a cost to that? Yes, there is. But what you end up with by having a, a successful partner is, you know, good returns and not just in good times, but more importantly during the bad times. And, you know, one of the greatest things about real estate. And so just to reiterate what your question is, that one of the biggest things can learn is to find good partners, especially when it comes to real estate, you know, and that, that is, that is the second thing is really understanding the benefit real estate provides. I mean, it's not just. It's one of the greatest investments, period. Right. They say they're not making more land, which is true, but look at Nashville. Except.

Except when they're like. Except when they're making those, those islands in the Middle East.

I was just going to say, okay.

Let'S not count that.

Yeah, you're. You're right. So, but look at Nashville. How much is Nashville grown? Right. And real estate is based upon the value of the land. So, so the land that. Where that's located is what really makes a difference. And so that's the biggest thing. You got to make sure you have the right partner and locations who Understands locations, the property type, what's the market. Like, that's the biggest thing. And then really realize that all those benefits, income, like you've talked about, appreciation, tax benefits, nobody goes into, you know, what are the real tax benefits? Well, you know, when you looked at. I had a property when I got from Vietnam, it was a triplex, and I was, you know, I think I ended up having to pay 250amonth. Right. But then I'm like, well, but really, because when you look at your taxes, right. It's all. It's all evening out, and you're actually, you're not paying any and you're ahead of the game. So I think that's the biggest thing is understanding the true value of real estate and having great partners. Those are two of the biggest things that people can learn and replicate.

Yeah. And I think even if you go, like, you can go all the way to the other end of the socioeconomic spectrum. And we work with a nonprofit here in Asheville called Open Doors, and we work with students trying to help get them typically first generation to college. We start a financial literacy course for them. And one of the fundamentals of creating wealth is. Is homeownership. You know, going from a renter to a homeowner. Now, obviously that's. That's different. But I mean, this. This is something that you can take all the way down to, you know, those first rungs of the socioeconomic ladder.

Yeah. And I apologize. I got a little off track. But, you know, education is huge.

Yeah.

You know, absolutely. Understanding. I talked to my son actually, just last night. We were having dinner, and, you know, he's talking about wanting to own an apartment and passive cash flow, you know. Yeah. And real estate could allow you to do that where you can that cash flow, to do other things, you know, and when you hold on to that or you continue to buy and continue to build that portfolio, that's huge, right?

Yeah.

And I think that's in both not only growing a portfolio, but maintaining your wealth.

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think, I mean, share your thoughts on this. It seems like real estate. I was having a conversation with an investor yesterday, first time, and he's like, man, he goes, chris, this sounds like a great investment. What am I missing? And I said, well, there's downsides, there's risk. I said, but you're missing the liquidity. I said, that's what you're giving up. And oftentimes I tell investors part of the benefit of the lack of liquidity is when the market drops and you can't get rid of it. You're forced to hold on through those periods. What are your thoughts on that?

I was just going to say that's it. When I was an advisor, I'll never forget this was during the tech boom. And so a guy in $100,000 in Amazon and it starts going down, he's like, sell. I'm like, don't sell. He's like, sell. I'm like, hold it. Right. Well, we have that liquidity. You don't have that choice. Just like you said. And when you do have a recession, you do have a pandemic. You know, I tell people that as long as it's cash flowing, right, and it's positive cash flow, it doesn't matter if the value of the bill or zero. It doesn't. Because you still have positive cash flow where you're paying your expenses and you can ride it out. Just said, right. And if you look, historically, vacancy has never gone below 11%. And so, you know, so when being with somebody like yourself, if you're looking to say what happens if we went down 15%? Are we still positive cash flow? Well, guess what, you're so sure. And, and you can ride it out. And by all means, because of the cycles, guess what's going to happen. That property you held is exactly right. And I was, Go ahead. Sorry, I was, I was just going to say we were, I was sitting on the advisory board at the Academic Initiative Harvard, and this big guy comes in or the big professor, right? And he. We've got a group of people which is very smart, big real estate people, a lot of money, all this other stuff. And I'll never forget Chris, he goes, well, and this is during the recession, he goes, here's the scoop. This is what you need to do is you buy at a high cap rate and you sell at a low cap rate. Would you buy low?

And yeah, I. Low is the high.

That's eight.

Genius. All right, Too easy.

Wait it out and it'll come back up. It always has.

Well, and that's again, that's one of our favorite metrics is what's the break even occupancy. And looking at historical and most of our properties are quite low when it comes to that. And we look at the different metrics that we utilize. Keeping the LTV low, keeping the cash reserves high, and keeping that break even occupancy as low as possible. Because that's our number one. I mean, @ least with our group, that's our number one goal is capital preservation.

Well, the great thing with multifamily is that you can actually quantify it because you can identify what's the demand and what's people that are coming in and what's on the market. Right. So you can find out. Then you take into consideration of like Nashville, that's growing crazy.

Yeah.

Denver, where I'm at.

Yeah.

And it's like, you know, it's keep. It keeps going.

Right, yeah.

So, but once again, like I said, it's extremely hard to find the right deals. So you got to make sure that you sift through them. You look at your downside. If you protect your downside, your upside will take care.

Yeah.

And that's what we've talked about with how you guys, you know, do that.

Yeah, no, terrific. And again, know terrific rules that I think anybody can apply, whether you're an investor buying a house or, you know, obviously you're at the level that your families are at, work with people. DJ Our first conversation, I remember talking about Akil and Phil Anderson. And one of my, One of my bibles is the Secret Life of Real Estate and Banking and looking at the real estate cycles and you.

Sorry, did we talk about that book?

That was. Geez. That was probably when you and I spoke at the end of 2020. Yeah, yeah.

It's an amazing book.

It's amazing. I bring it up, I talk about it not infrequently, and I think I'm a data guy, I'm an engineer. So I look at the numbers and I look historically and it just blows my mind what they've outlined in that book. So you mentioned time in the real estate cycle. Yeah, let's touch on that. What are your thoughts on where we are today in the real estate cycle?

You know, a great resource, by the way, is the Miller Market Monitor.

Miller. Oh, yeah, yeah. Doctor. Yeah. That was one of my favorite interviews in the past year and a half.

Yeah, we actually put that into the institute now. And so that tracks where we are in the market cycle based upon property type and location. So your question is, where are we in the cycle? I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go back the. The author of the book that you just brought up.

Yeah.

And his clock is amazing.

You know, Phil Anderson is the.

That's right. And real estate runs in. In 17 and a half year cycles. And so if you look at. Or 18 and a half year cycles.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Yeah. So if you look at where we are, you know, we should have been seeing a recession coming up in 27, 28 now, the way I look at it is that we lost a year, year and a half in the pandemic. So let's extend that out. So we're probably up to where probably 29, 30. So we've got a long, we got a long way to go, you know. And you know, the great thing about family, which I think we spoke about too, is that you have such a diverse. It's not one tenant. You might have 30, 50, 200. Right. But we have, we've got Runway. We definitely have Runway. Pricing, cost of construction is definitely playing a different. Once again, it goes down to trying to find the right opportunities to take advantage of that.

Yeah. And I'm going to put, I'm going to put the link to Dr. Miller's. It's like their quarterly analyses. Right. I just pulled up, he just had his last one come out here. And then if you're listening and you didn't catch the podcast, it was episode 45 that came out. So episode 45 of the Next Level Income show, you can go back and you can catch up to kind of some of the stuff that we've been talking about here with DJ. So I agree. I think 2020 was that mid cycle slowdown. And I went on record on podcasts and different interviews and 20, 20, 19, talking about what we were doing, kind of putting myself out there a little bit. So I wish I could have predicted the pandemic. I would have made a hundred times what I made. You know, you got to take, take these things as long term cycles.

You know what though? Yes and no. Because everybody thought the bottom was going to fall out and it did.

Yeah.

And so, and actually with the multifamily, I mean, that was the way to go. And you can actually classify multifamily, which is what I call an essential asset, which means that it can weather the storms in pandemics and recessions. And so it's a great place to be. One thing I will tell you, you asked about, what's one of the rules that people can learn from? When you looked at the recession, families were getting in after the fact. They were all sitting on their cash like crazy. Right. And that's where the real wealth is made. When everybody's running for the door, that's where the opportunity. Well, what happened during the, during the pandemic, everybody thought we were going to see a similar dip like we did in the recession. The families held tight, they didn't. And they actually were looking for opportunities this time. So it's like they learned from it. So, yeah, people could. Don't freak out. You know, it's a big thing is stay tried and true, you know, and, and that's a huge thing. But the cycles is, you know, that's a great book. You mentioned the timing, the real estate cycle, which is, I think he. It's with Craig. Have to remember out of Texas. Great book, easy read. And then you've got Glenn Miller's market cycle report, which is a great tool.

Yeah, no, that's fantastic. So based upon where we are in the cycle today, DJ or just what is your group focused on right now in terms of asset classes, where do you see opportunities? Because a lot of people say, chris, I can't buy a single family house. The numbers don't make sense. Or like we were talking about, we had to look at 100 deals just to find one good, you know, multifamily deal. What are some other areas that, you know, you all and your group are looking at right now?

Well, I'll tell you, I'm going to answer that a couple of different ways. We were starting our fourth year for the annual study for family offices. And historically, the number one prop for. For family office has been multifamily, and that's been in the 72 to 78% range. Right now it's trending at 82%. Right. But number two is industrial. So we're focused on industrial right now. And what we saw during the pandemic was a huge demand or where people were ordering food. And that's starting to happen more and more. I mean, we're ordering our groceries now where we didn't do it before. Right. Well, they need a place to.

Why not keep it?

They need a place to keep it cold. So when you go into your supermarket, you're going to have, you know, produce, and you're also going to have frozen pizzas. But, well, they've got some back. So once it gets empty, they fill it up in the back of the store, but they have to have somewhere else that's a larger storage area and that's, that's cold storage. So industrial cold storage. It's a big freezer and refrigerator. And, you know, we're very, very bullish. 70% of all the industrial cold storage facilities are out of date.

And the average 70% are out of date.

Yeah. Guess what the average age is? 30 years, 47 years.

Wow, that's like, I mean, shoot, that's older than me. That's a long time ago. Yeah.

And, and so, and so you, you need about 200 million more square feet in the next two years. And there's only about 15 to 20 million in the. In the. We're in the market, right?

Incredible. I like that tailwind.

Yeah. So we're literally, you know, so we're focused on industrial, which is the second greatest area for families where they have an interest. But the cold storage is expensive to build, but because of the demand, you can get greater rent. And so we're very, very bullish on industrial cold storage. And that's really where we're. We're focused right now.

That's awesome. Yeah. I think we've seen how well industrial has performed here with the pandemic. And, you know, it's what I found with the pandemic, it was almost fuel and the fire, you know, all these trends, people moving to secondary tertiary markets, suburban markets, industrial, all these things accelerated through the pandemic, which is really amazing how that occurred, in my opinion.

That's right. And what you find, too, like, in Denver, anyway, there's a shortage of houses, and so where are they? So where are people going to go?

We were talking about this yesterday, for short, about 4. Well, we need 4 million units this decade, approximately. Yeah, yeah. And it's not. It's not uniform across the country is the issue. So you have people moving to Denver, to Nashville, to Florida, to Texas. And that's. Yeah, it's just, you know, like the meeting we were at, they said, build as much as you can as fast as you can to take advantage. So it's incredible. So, dj, I wish. I mean, geez, this is. This has been amazing. Just, you know, for me, for the audience here. I know you've written a book. I'd love for you to share that with the audience as well as you're working on another book as well. Is that right?

Yeah, so. So wrote a book which is, you know, the Family Office Real Estate Guide to Investing in Commercial Real Estate. And it goes over a lot of the fundamentals. You know, what's cap rates, cash flow, different property types, stuff like that. Yeah. And so that's on Amazon, if anybody wants a copy. Happy to share that with them. And then you can just let me know, I'll send to you, and you can send them out or whatever the case is, and then working on another one right now, which is going into more detail, which is what the families are doing, you know, what they look for, what's the biggest mistakes that they make. Right. And what they have to be aware of. And so we're. I'm putting all of that together. And you know, it's, it's been a. I just started putting it together again. Should be a good, a good book for the next one that's coming out. And I don't have a title yet, but we'll have you back on we go.

Yeah, yeah. Well, this is again, dj, this has been awesome. I mean, whether you're worth, you know, 2.5 million or 100 times that, I think everything that you've shared today, I've always said, if you want to be wealthy, learn from those that are ultra wealthy and look at what they do. Because just, just because you're only worth six figures or seven figures doesn't mean you can't employ the same strategies.

Well, the thing too is that, you know, the great thing about real estate, I mean, I absolutely love real estate, right. Is if you're worth $200 million, you look at Charles Ike, he'll actually go in, take positions in companies, take over, remove people. Okay, I can't do that. You can't do that. The normal person can't do that. But very wealthy people can go out and buy buildings that are worth 50, 60% or 60 million, $100 million, possibly, if they really are worth something. But the common person can buy a million dollar property or a $5 million property, the same exact 30% return, in many cases even a better return. So you can play at the same level as the very healthy. And I've never really thought about it this way, but you can, right?

Yeah, absolutely.

And get the similar return. So it allows you to play in their space.

Yeah. Our best deal, DJ was a little 7 unit office in downtown Asheville. And you know, you can't get those every single day, every single year. But I tell when people are like, oh, I can't do it, you know, and that, that capital came from the very first property that I bought for $90,000 with $3,000 down. So if you're listening and you want some motivation, if you got $3,000, you can turn that into massive returns over a period of time.

Got some. I've got something better.

Bring it on.

Okay.

I love it.

So our first house, it was in Seattle, right. We paid $132,000. I think we put down, you know, 5%, $8,000.

Yeah.

Came back three years later and I refinanced. I took out $20,000, a triplex where we lived in one unit for $350,000. Right? Out of that, 20,000 came from. I sold that. I don't know, maybe you know, not that long later and made $350,000. And what do you think the return on that capital was? Right. So it came from. I just took it from the other property and. Right. So same thing.

It's amazing.

Same thing.

Yeah. And it's a, it's a get rich slow game. You got to be patient. So I apologize there. Yeah. Get rich slow game. And if people want to, if people want to keep up with you, I want to see your current book, your next book that's coming out. What's the best way to follow.

The best way is to. Well, right now it's simply at evergreen property partners.com I'll have or putting back up redoing my website just on myself where they can get additional information. I would say if you want additional information, contact you and then Chris, you can share and we can, we can get them over the book, we can get them over other information. Google me and that's the other way too to see what I'm doing. One thing I will say, if you're on the Family Office Real estate newsletter will publish things on a monthly basis. I don't know if you're. If you get that or not.

I read it. Absolutely.

Yeah. 22,000 people on there and they're 300 word, you know, three minute readings.

Yeah. No, it's fantastic. DJ, thank you so much for sharing all your knowledge with the audience today. You're always welcome back. Look forward to it.

Thank you so much.

Hey Chris, here again. I hope you found this episode valuable. Now I have one more thing to give to you. We have a page for my coaching clients where you can get a free copy of my book as well as much more. More from previous guests on the show. Just check out nextlevelincome.com coaching to get a free copy of my book, audiobook and much more. I'll send you a copy of my book and cover all the shipping costs as a thank you for listening to the podcast. Also, please like share and take just 90 seconds to give us a rating on Apple podcasts.