Why 401(k)s are the Worst Vehicles for Financial Freedom Russ Morgan
Russ Morgan argues 401(k)s don't produce passive income or cut expenses, making them poor retirement tools. He and Chris Larsen compare them to real estate investments, discuss tax consequences, and explain why cash-flowing assets matter more for financial freedom.
401Ks are the worst financial tool to become financially free because if it doesn't produce passive income, which it can't, if it doesn't monthly expense, which it can't, it is not getting you closer to it. Every contribution that you make is actually costing you more time.
Welcome to the Next Level Income show where it's our goal to take your income, your investments and your life to the next level. I'm your host, Chris Larsen. If you haven't yet, get a copy of our book for free at our website, Next Level Income.com. that's www.nextlevelincome.com. just click on the book link and I'll even send you a copy if you put your address in. Today, I'm excited to welcome back my friend Russ Morgan from Wealth Without Wall street to the podcast. He and his partner Joey Murray have been on quite a few times here over the past several years. And we're going to talk about an interesting topic. Why 401ks are so bad for your financial independence and freedom going forward. Russ, welcome back my friend Chris.
I'm so grateful to be here, man. A lot of fun already pre recording, but I know we're gonna have a lot of fun.
Oh, yeah, we almost ran out of time to record. We were just catching up all these exciting things. But I'm, I'm excited because I think, you know, the title probably got some people's attention why 401ks are the worst, worst vehicles for financial freedom. And look, I wanted to do this because I just had this conversation with an investor this morning. I think a lot of people don't understand the math behind 401ks. And like I on that one, you know, at your mastermind, where we met for the first time face to face back in 2001, you know, you asked the group, you said, hey, why don't you share like the, the math behind this, Russ? Like what most people don't understand.
Well, here's the key is that when I know you talk about this on the show is that freedom exists when our passive income feeds monthly expenses, right? Like, that's when we truly have time freedom, which gives us the ability to whatever we want to. And if you use that equation to start off with, then every financial decision you make from that point forward becomes so much easier.
Right?
And here's the people will say, you know, well, I've been invested in my 401k for the last 10 years. It's been amazing. Why wouldn't I continue to take advantage of that And I was like, I'm not here to tell you not to, but let's ask questions about what is your goal, what's the end goal? Just like when you're looking at an investment, like you're looking at a multifamily mobile home park, a car wash or whatever, you're starting to think the end, like what is going to be our exit strategy? And then we've got to build that backwards. Right? So for someone who's thinking about their financial future, if they have to start with the end in mind. So if you're saying I want financial freedom to be when my passive income exceeds my monthly so that I can do fill in the blank, then I'm going to go, okay, if that's what your goal is, let's talk about that. So Chris, I'll just ask you the questions. I know you know the answers. And, but for, for the person at home listening that's, you know, sometimes emotionally tied to these things, they, they lose the objectivity. So how much passive income, the average 45 year old who is putting in, you know, $20,000 a year into their 401k or whatever their numbers is, if they're an entrepreneur and they're putting in tax ketchups and all the whatever, doesn't matter what it is, how much passive income will that produce for them this year?
Probably 0, 100%?
Zero.
Right.
They, they, they cannot touch it, right. Until they're what, 59 and a half or they separate service and there's some other exemption that they get.
All right, government, government's going to get their pound of flesh one way or the other.
That's right. All right, so the other side of the equation is monthly expenses. How much in monthly expenses does it reduce by them contributing to their 401k?
None.
Zero. Right. If they considered an outlay, they're actually expense goes up. But people can say, well, but I don't consider saving or investing an expense. I, I'll go with that. But it does not reduce a monthly expense. So if financial freedom is when passive income exceeds monthly expenses and it didn't produce a passive income, it didn't reduce a monthly expense for every dollar you contribute, are you getting closer to or further from financial freedom as a result of that contribution?
I think the real answer is you really have no idea. You definitely can't say with certainty that you absolutely are. You don't know what it's going to produce in the future.
Well, if you're not getting closer to, you must be getting further from that's great.
Yeah, I used to have that written on my whiteboard. It said if it's not moving you towards your goal, it's moving you away from it.
So when I say that 401ks are the worst, and I'm definitive in this. Right. There's so many things in our world we're like, eh, it's in this specific context I can say, bar none, it is definitively the worst financial tool to become financially free. Because if it doesn't produce a passive income, which it can't, if it doesn't monthly expense, which it can't, it is not getting you closer to. And every contribution that you make is actually costing you more time. Because if they could take those dollars that they were putting and they, they could invest in one of your transactions. Right. We've invested with you. If they would invest with you and it would produce a passive income, then they would be getting closer to. So every. They put in the 401k, they have postponed, prolonged how long they're going to be not financially free.
Absolutely. And look, we're going to talk about some strategies where if you're like, wait a minute, I got all this money in my 401k. And that's one of the other things I hear Russ, is I have some older investors. They've done very well in their retirement plans over their, you know, several decades that they've been invested. One of my close friends, he's approaching 70. I won't mention his name out of, out of respect for him, but he's still, he's amazing. He's a pilot, he's got a Harley, he's got a boat. He's, you know, I'm like, I'm like, wait, you raised, you raised Porsches too? Who are you, man? This is crazy. He lived in a mobile home one time. I was like, he's like, oh, it was like a luxury lake community. Guys, every time I talk to him, he's like, you know, he's like the most interesting man in the world, right? But he just looks like a normal dude. You know what he said to me? He's like, chris, the problem I have now, I have all this money in my, my, my qualified retirement plans. I'm stuck having to take required minimum distributions and pay taxes that I shouldn't have to pay. And I think a lot of people don't realize that it can be a tax trap at the end as well.
Yeah, definitely never consider the taxes. And it's hard to predict, I mean, other than if you look at our national debt. Right. We're, we're obviously hopeful that Congress is going to adjustments, that the Senate won't pass this big beautiful bill necessarily without some adjustments in mandatory spending. But no matter where you stand on that, you know that the government is spending more and more every year. Doesn't matter if they're spending money on things that you want or they don't want. Right. Like there's both sides of the coin there. But all that means is that taxes at some point in time are going to have to go up. The former Comptroller General of the United States said there's a four letter word that's going to guarantee that taxes are going to have to double the future. And that four letter word was debt. Yeah, he said it has to. There is no other option for it to not to. But in order them to pay for all the debt that they have, they're going to have to raise taxes. So if you're contributing into any sort of tax qualified plan where you're getting the deduction today, most people don't realize qualified plans do two things. They defer the tax. Everybody knows that part, but they forget the second one is they also defer the tax calculation.
Yeah, yeah.
So let's, let's talk, let's see what.
This is. What opened my eyes because I'm a math guy, you know, this I love, you know, and if you invest for 25, 30, 40 years and you save 25% on the front end, your tax rate's 25%, your tax rate is 25% on the back end, you make 10%, you're gonna have more money if you paid the tax today or if you put in a tax deferred vehicle and pay the tax in the future, you.
Have the same exact amount of money.
It's the same amount. So stop and listen to that again. You're going to end up with the same amount of money unless your tax rate's lower in the future. And I think the only way that taxes are going to be lower in the future, this is my opinion, is that either tax rates go down, which mathematically they can't, or you're poorer in the future and your tax rate is artificially lower, like you're able to control it on your own. So if you're willing, if you're willing to have less money in the future and income, or you think the government's going to lower taxes, maybe it's a better bet. If you're willing to lock your money up and roll the dice on that. Is that fair?
Yeah. I think the conversation typically revolves around the CPAs in our life. Right. Who are trying to do the best job they can for us. Unfortunately, most people don't realize the average CPA has 800 to 1,000 clients. They spend 10 months out of the year focusing on tax returns, doing tax, you know, preparation.
Yeah.
And they have two months out of the year, November, December, where they actually can do planning strategy.
Yeah.
But those two months also have the biggest holidays. They, they've been working for 10 months out of the year. This is where they want to take their vacations. And the reality is in the, I don't know, maybe call it 35, 40 days that they could meet with people. How could they meet with 800 to a thousand people? The answer is they can't. So you're. Your CPA is unable to give you tax planning and tax strategy advice. So the one thing that they typically do is say, oh, Chris, looks like you made a lot of money. What if we contributed some money to a qualified plan? Right. It matter if it's defined benefit plans, these contribution plans, the catch up plans, all this stuff, because all they're doing is trying to figure out a way to show their worth by reducing your tax bill for that year. And they're just going to kick the can down the road. Because the reality is in 30 years, whenever you're out there, you're that 7 year old that you were talking about. His accountant from 40 years ago has long since retired. He doesn't have to answer for the tax bill that he's acquired.
And even so, I'll share a little personal story here. So my wife and I were dealing with some challenges with our older son that you and I were discussing earlier. This was like 10 years ago. And my friend goes, we're on a bike ride and he looks at me and he was going through a divorce. He goes, do you guys, like, see a family counselor? I said, no. Like, we got a great marriage. He goes, you should go see a family counselor. Like, they could really help you with this and it'll help, help bring you and your wife together and be on the same page. Now. It was phenomenal advice. And as we were looking at people, I had a question for my wife. I was like, do they have a successful marriage? Are they in a successful relationship? Do they have kids? I wanted somebody that had kind of walked the walk and was, and knew the challenges that I was going through. I could say, hey, I've, I've experienced this. And look, I've I've had challenges, but I can do that. Is your CPA rich? Are they, are they financially independent? Are they doing the things that you would do? And in reality, and there's some phenomenal CPAs out there, I got, I got a great group that I work with. But in reality, most, like you said, Russ, they're just collecting your receipts at the end of the year saying, hey, here's some ways that you can reduce your tax bill. Today. They're not, Maybe they're making 2, 3, $400,000 a year, but if they don't understand these strategies, doing them themselves and, and are, are, are very affluent themselves, they probably never even explored these strategies because there's no benefit in it for them. And there's probably no benefit in it for most of their clients anyway.
Well, they don't have the time, Chris. So here's the thing. I know you and I are going to be doing a tax stuff down at our lake house at some point this summer. And here's what I've learned after going through, you know, intensive after intensive with our family office is that family office has 75 clients. They amend or change 100% of the tax returns sent to them. Wow. From actual CPAs that they also refer people to. So There are some CPAs that some of their clients are using that they're not real big fans of.
Yeah.
Majority of them are working with either someone that they're like, yes, great person, or they've actually referred them and they still are amending or adjusting those returns. And it's because they don't have the time. And part of it is that they're not connected. What I've learned is that you have to tell your story. Like, especially with, with entrepreneurs. Right. We're involved in so many things. Like, you know, we're, we're getting a loan on one of the investment properties we have. And my banker says to me, he's like, man, I've been working with you for the last eight years and every single year we do something with you. Your returns are just more and more complicated. And I go, I know, bro, it's not my goal. But as entrepreneurs, we start acquiring businesses and growing things and that's okay, right? We pay people to do the job. Well, if we're not having a conversation and explain, because that's what I've seen in these intensives is the first thing we have people do is actually take out a whiteboard and we say, write all your stuff on the board. I want you to describe exactly all the business structures you have. I want you to describe the incomes, how you get paid, and they put it all on the board so we have a very clean picture. And then, and only then do we pull up the tax return. We start going through it line by line and comparing what they wrote on the board to what's on the tax return. And here's an example for me. I'll be transparent. I want to share other people's stuff. I'll share mine is I did this for the first time last year with our tax at that tax intensive with our family office and I had over $200,000, Chris. And interest carry forward for people not knowing what that means is that every single time, you know, every. At the end of the year, I take all the things I've borrowed money from. Most of it has been against our life insurance policies. Right. I know you guys talk about that on the show a lot too. Yeah, we're big, huge believers in infinite banking barring against whole life insurance policies. So. But all the things that I've acquired interest deductions for, I just like trying to get all those big receipts and like hand them to my accountant and pass up on the back, like who I got them all that stuff right. Now once they have it, what are they going to do with. They're going to write it off, right?
Yep.
That was not happening. Not happen. I acquired $200,000 and carry forward. I didn't know that because I didn't even know how to read my own tax return.
Right.
And so our, our family office says, russ, why do you $200,000 of care for it? And I'm like, I don't even know what you're saying. And so we started going through it and he's like, well, what did you borrow this money for? And I was like, well, I borrowed this money for investments in business. That's all I borrowed money for. He's like, okay, but why hasn't it been written off? I was like, I. I don't know. Like. And so we go in there and like going through that story. So for, for 2024's taxes, I was able to take all of that. Over $200,000 of just carry for that has accrued over the last six or seven years and write it off in 2024. And it was only as a result of actually talking out a situation and then going line by line to figure out these little things.
Love that. I mean, that's huge, that amount of money. That's phenomenal. So, you know, I think we probably got some people's attention about, about 401ks. You and I are on the same page with that. You and you and your partner Joey have written a book, Wealth Without Wall Street. Great, great title. Don't know where you came up with that one. Love that.
But very unique over here.
Yeah, that's beautiful. No, it's beautiful. I love it. I love it. So. But you guys have, you have three steps that you help investors walk through to actually get to the point where their passive income is greater than their expenses. Let's help out our listeners. So they're like, okay, great. Now I know I'm doing something wrong, but what should I be doing? We've talked about the tax side of things and if you want, if you want help on that, shoot me an email chrisxtlevelincome.com and just say, I want help on my taxes. And we'll, we'll share more on our upcoming intensive at Russ's lake house as well some other resources that you can have, but walk the listeners through. Well, first, talk about your book that you and Joey wrote. Russ. Joey came on several months ago and talked about the launch. We got a lot of listeners that picked it up. But for those of you that don't have the book yet, let's talk about where you can get it and also kind of walk through what they'll learn in that book.
Yeah. So go to Amazon. Obviously you can buy the hard copy. I'd encourage you to buy the audible one because we, we actually in the audible version gave behind the scenes stuff between chapters that you just don't have in the physical book.
So we, it's like David Goggins did that the first time. It's awesome.
Yeah. And we read it ourselves. Hardest thing to do was to write the book. The second hardest thing was to read the book.
Isn't it hard to do that? I remember with mine, I was like, oh, how hard is it to read my book? They're like, stop, slow down, repeat that. I was like, this took a week. This is crazy.
It's so hard. I have a lot of appreciation for people who have done their own audible verse. I realize how hard it is. Yeah. In the book, we break down the three steps. Goal plan, support, kind of the gps. Right. We're navigating somewhere. Most of us pull out our Waze app or Google Maps or whatever it is to get point A to point B. And you're trying to avoid obstacles. You're trying to get there as fast as possible. That's kind of the way that we saw the book as a way to give a high overview of what we saw coming out of, you know, mortgage industry in the financial planning world, where even though we had exposure to financial tools, had never been taught the things that you and I are having these conversations about. There was never conversations about how truly to become financially free. We were just told how to use other people's financial products that made them rich. Right. And. And so everything was based upon, like giving people kind of a vision for what's possible. We were talking about the 401k a second ago. I do want to double click into this because some people have heard me talk about the 4:1 lake house.
I want to hear this.
There's a 401k and then there's a 401 lake house. By the way, there is no such thing as a 401 lake house. But I had this mentor that, that broke this down and he had a condo and at the beach. And this is where it originated from. So I won't take credit from it. Don Blanton is somebody that I learned from a long time ago. And he had this beach house and he did this. A 4:1 condo. I call mine the 4:1 lake house. And we were saying this a second because I do want to do a quick comparison, then we can into the book. But I think this is interesting. I've had a number of clients go and buy beach homes, lake homes, mountain homes, and say, russ, I got my 401 Mountain home. Now he goes, I heard that it was a game changer. Or once my I heard this, I told my husband, we must do this.
Or whatever the case is.
So in the 401k, right. The number one reason why someone contributes to a 401k, Chris, is what?
Tax savings.
Tax savings. Tax deductibility. Right.
Tax deduction.
Yeah. So when. When I bought my lake house, right. And I started making my mortgage payments, I was able to reduce my taxes by what?
The interest on your mortgage?
The interest on the mortgage right up to $750,000 headedness, I can actually write off the interest. So assuming my. My lake house or whatever second home I had was $750,000, every payment that I contributed as a mortgage payment, and.
That'S especially in this early years, mostly interest. The first several years. Yeah.
So basically the same contribution that I would make to the 401k that make to the lake house being equally deductible. Correct. So I'm even Steven right there another reason, especially if they're an employee. The reason that they contribute to a.
401K is what if they're an employee?
Yeah. What's another reason?
They probably get a match, right? They go, oh, you know, 2, 3, 5, 10%, whatever it might be.
Yeah, my employer is contributing to it, Russ. Chris. Like, I mean, I would be stupid. That's free money. And they're like, well, okay, Russ, how can you people contribute to your 401 Lake House? And I go, oh, that's pretty interesting, right? Well, one, I could rent it if I wanted it to.
Right.
Could do a short term rental or I could have friends and that, you know, could invite people to it that could pay us to, to attend. Or I could just send down cpa, you know, the person we were just kind of. I don't want to say I was talking bad about, but I was like, you know, saying, hey, do better. You know, just do better. I could send them down there and they could for me clients. And as a result, the same thing, the money that I make from those clients that they refer to me could help pay for my lake house. Right. There's my match.
Absolutely.
For the last 10 years, people have experienced growth in their 401k. They say, oh, the stock markets have been going up. And I go, man, the real market at our lake property has gone up astronomically. Like, I bought a house.
Real estate's up to X. Yeah. Yeah, I bought a house leveraged and it's leveraged. Yes.
I bought a house in 2019 for 900,000. I sold it 14 months later for 1.1 billion. That same house today would sell for 2.5.
Yeah.
I mean, so gross.
Two and a half X. Yeah.
The thing is that when your clients get their 401, how do those. How does a person who has a 401k know if, if it's going well? They get a statement, right?
And like, oh, look, I went up.
Yeah, yeah. Every quarter they get this statement and I'm sure they sit down on the couch, they put their arm around their line and they say, look how good we're doing. This is fantastic. Right? Like, I'm sure one of your sons, you just sit down with them and just would be like, hey, let's just take even it to review my 401k statement. So for people who have 401ks, they have statements. Chris, do you, you know what the visuals that have at my lakehouse are? I have pictures. I have pictures of them wake surfing. I have pictures of them jumping off the top dock. I Have pictures of.
I've seen them. They're amazing. I'm like you doing a. Doing a. Well, I would say a 360 was more like a 180 or 270 on your 180 and a. Yeah, yeah.
Now here's the thing, is that access, right, the 401k, in order to access it, I have to be over 59 and a half. Right. Because we know since 2008, 2009, when the market crashed, they changed all the custodial rules of those. The conversation of in service withdrawals went away. So you can't get access to the.
Money without like massive penalties, taxes, restrictions, penalties.
How do you think I get in my lake house?
With your key, probably code.
I have a key. I can get in anytime I want to.
I love. This is, this is great. You got. Yeah. Have you done a YouTube bit on this yet?
Oh, yes, for sure.
Like, this is so good. Yeah.
Let's talk about taxes. Right. So when I actually access the Money in my 401k, what type of tax is going to incur?
Well, if you access it early, you're going to pay penalties. You're going to pay penalties and you're going to pay income tax. Type of income tax, highest marginal rate.
Yeah. Because it's ordinary income tax, right?
Yep.
So when you own a piece of real estate and you own it for more than 12 months, what kind of taxes do you pay on that?
You pay long term capital gains. Long term capital gains if you sell it. Or you can borrow against it and pay zero.
Right. And if it's a primary home. Right. You have exemptions, but ordinary income tax, so rates as high as 40 something percent with state income tax as compared to 20%, 15% or 20% in the capital gains rate. Right. So I'm at half the tax. So when I sold that property that I bought for 900 and turned around and sold it 14 months later for 1.1, I only had to pay a portion of that because of capital gains. Now the opposite is like you were kind of leading to, if I die. And by the way, my cpa, I give them credit for this. I say, hey, what is the worst asset to own when you die? And every, the first thing out of his lips will say, qualified plan.
Qualified plan. Oh, yeah, I'm dealing with that. With my stepfather's estate right now. Yeah.
So if you die though, with the lake house, the four, one lake house.
What happens goes to your heirs. Stepped up basis.
Stepped up basis. So if that property has appreciated millions of dollars they'll pay how much attacks if they sold it the same day, inherited it. Zero.
Zero.
That is ridiculous. Now the second, the last thing I would talk about is legacy. A lot of stuff that we're doing is. You were talking about before is like, hey, I'm teaching my how to, you know, be an entrepreneur, how, how to learn sales, how you know, how to work for money and appreciate money. All those things. Right. We're teaching something that's absolutely. It's so hard, right? Like you can, you can leave something behind, but the thing that you can't leave is, is these memories and trainings. So the, the legacy of a 401k, what's left behind can only be. That's it. When in the 401k, you die with it. The only thing can be left behind is the money of it as compared to the lake house. If you leave them the lake house.
Yeah.
They want memories both new and old.
Yeah. And my kids even said, Russ, they're like, don't sell the house. Like my wife and I built the, you know the story. My wife's an architect. We built this house. My boy said, don't ever sell it. If you do, we want to buy it from you. I'm like, well, you better get to work making some money. But anyway.
But there's memories there.
Yeah. Because of the memories. And that's most people listening. Whether it's your grandparents house or the house you grew up in, your parents house that they have right now. That, that's what it is. I just went to our family farm up in Wisconsin when I was up there for my, my uncle's funeral. And yeah, it was, it's like, they're like, well, why do you want to go to the farm? Like you're only going to be there for like 15 minutes. Because I had to get to the airport. I was like, well, it's, it's our family's legacy. You know, it's the homestead from my great great grandfather that came from Denmark. And there's memories there. There's, you know, it's gonna, it's in the family. And everybody wants to, wants to step foot and see that. Yeah.
Well, that's the 401k versus 401 lake house. And it's just a different way to think about money. If I'm going to contribute 4,000amonth, 401 for the next 20 years. What if I could find a lake property where my outlay was 4,000amonth and then compare those things. I think it's interesting Because I saw my father in law do this idea of one. I had a mentor that kind of broke down all the stories. But I saw it lived out because my father in Law in 2001 bought a lake house and he literally had taken the money out of a 401k because at the time he could, he took the penalty, but he could take the money out because service withdrawal provisions still exist at that point in time. He bought this property. My wife lived in it her last year of college. And I saw our family 15 years grew up in it, you know, and it was just this beautiful thing. And eventually he ended up selling it. And all the stuff we talked about was true. It only was his, you know, growth over those years equivalent to what it would have been in the market. But what he got and what happened as a result of that is lifelong. Right? My kids, they want me to drive them by the lake house, my grand. That their grandparents used to own and they remember jumping off that dock, they remember all the fun of skiing and slew, all that stuff. None of that is true in their 401k that they don't know what he invested in the 401k. They don't care.
Well, and you know, even more impactful than going, look, I put the. As you're going through that, I dropped the link to the book in the show notes here so you guys can grab, grab a copy there or listen to the podcast with, with Joey Murray. But I think this is, this is more impactful, Russ, which is you were talking about how the affluent, how rich people view assets and money versus those that are poor. Or we're just living paycheck to paycheck. Like what? Dave Ramsey has some good lessons. Get out of debt, do this, do that. But what I found, Russ, is you talk to a lot of financial advisors that work with these people and they say, oh, buy term life insurance, invest the difference, get enough in your 401, your qualified plans so you can hopefully, you know, that money gets you to, you know, a point in retirement and maybe we spend it down and then you go on Medicaid and then you're left with nothing. Well, you're talking about, you know, with the life insurance that you, we haven't talked a ton about today, but you leave a legacy for your family and you're talking about making memories and experiences. And that's really, in my mind what life is about is having those experiences where with friends, you know, like you with your family with those sorts of things. Whereas, you know, stuff, you know, A car, you know, you know, buying, you know, buying the latest piece of, you know, electronics or those sorts of things. That's very, very fleeting. So I think that's like what you said, you know, as much as the money, having those experiences, Money, you can't trade those for money.
So. Well said. Yeah. I mean that I, I tell people the goal should be to be time free, but just remember what you're spending your time to do.
Yeah.
And if you're always having to work so hard to it and you, you, you lose the people along the way that you were doing it for to start off with.
Yeah.
And, you know, there's lots of movements out there trying to get people to, to. To be better stewards of money. I'm for it as long as it doesn't give up the, the freedom that, that you're seeking to start.
Absolutely. We'll share with the audience. Russ, we got, we got a bunch of links here in the show. Notes for everybody. What's the best way to learn more about wealth without Wall Street? Get a copy of your book, learn about your amazing community and these events that you guys have to help people do. All the things that we've been talking about today.
Yeah. Go to Wealthwalk, wall street.com next level. And on there there's a number of things that you can get access to. And yeah, we'd love to, to. To be able to kick. Empowering you to becoming financially free, encouraging you. We built a community that has about 9,000 people in it now. And it's a, it's amazing to, to see people just encouraging one another, talking about what their goals are, the plans that they're building. And, and we built that community to be that support resource. Right. Like to help people who don't know what their investor DNA is. It's never even considered what their investment buy box is to be able to do due diligence on deals and, and to have amazing conversations. People like you, Chris, like, that is all done and you know, core choreographed through this community that has just been a blessing to everybody involved.
No, it's fantastic. And I'm a part of it. It's, you know, we got to meet a few years ago. We've become more than that now, man. It's been. Been almost five years. Very grateful for that and always grateful to have. Have you on the show. Russ, great to see you, my friend.
Yeah, thank you for having me.
Hey, Chris, here again. I hope you found this episode valuable. Now I have one more thing to gift you. We have a page for my coaching clients where you can get a free copy of my book as well as much more from previous guests on the show. Just check out nextlevelincome.com coaching to get a free copy of my book, audiobook and much more. I'll send you a copy of my book and cover all the shipping costs as a thank you for listening to the podcast. Also, please like share and take just 90 seconds to give us a rating on Apple Podcasts.
