For the Love of Polk County

For the love of Polk County. Okay. Hey, Polk County. Welcome back to the Elevate Polk Podcast. It's your host Chrissanne Long, and I'm sans my co-host today. Uh, Nate had some things that he had to take care of, but I am super, super, super excited. This is a very special episode for me personally. I'm particularly excited about this show because because, um, it's a lot of firsts. First of all, we're using a remote podcast, uh, service called Riverside, so shout out to Riverside for this great platform. Um, and Annie has put it all together and made it all possible, so thanks to Annie for that. And it's also the first time we've had a bestselling author as a guest, and so it's, um, the first time I've had a chance to catch up with Peter Kageyama since he was here in Lakeland in 2013. Welcome back, albeit virtually, Peter, but welcome back to Polk County.

Thank you very much. Everything's virtual these days, so it's, it's not that different. Yeah. And I have good memories of those.

This is true.

So yeah, there you go.

We had a great time. I was funny as I was reminiscing. Um, I talked to Matt Clark, who was the kind of the, the person behind Ignite Lakeland, which is the workshop that you did. Mm-hmm. And I said, do you still have the, the, the banner that was drawn while we did the workshop?

Yeah.

And he said he thought he gave it to somebody. He's not sure who, so I'm trying to track it down.

There's probably pictures of it.

Or do you have a picture of it? Yeah.

Yeah. That mural. Yeah. That was a nice artifact from that day. So yeah.

It was great. It was wonderful. So why don't we just go into you telling us a little bit about your background and a little bit of how you tell your version of the story of how you kind of were brought into Lakeland. I really want to hear your perspective on that.

So just so you folks know, I'm not that far from you guys. I live in downtown St. Petersburg, so I am a Floridian, although like most Floridians, I'm not actually from here originally. I'm originally from Ohio. But I've been down here 27 years, so I consider myself a thin-blooded Floridian now, like most of us. So, yes. Yeah. And of course, I do have great love for the region. I certainly love, you know, St. Petersburg where I live. And obviously, I care a lot about the cities that are in this area. And it all kind of started in the early 2000s. I was introduced to a gentleman by the name of Richard Florida, who some of the listeners might be familiar with. He wrote a series of books, but the seminal book that he wrote in like 2002 was called Rise of the Creative Class. And he talked about the importance of people, of creative, innovative people in places, and how economies were going to be built around that idea. Instead of chasing smokestacks, uh, and chasing businesses, you were going to chase talented, creative, innovative people because that was really the fuel for this sort of 21st century economy. And now I say that and everyone goes, well, duh, uh, at this point that seems pretty obvious. But think, 2002, that was revelatory. And most, you Businesses or most cities were chasing smokestacks. They were chasing businesses and call centers and all that kind of stuff. And the thing is, is that those kinds of things, call centers and businesses want tax breaks and land deals and infrastructure and stuff like that. Well, talented people want different things. They want great places to live. That's parks and trails and restaurants and a vibrant sort of city there. And that's a very different approach to community building. And so, I got involved with an organization called Creative Tampa Bay from the outset. And as they say, one thing leads to another. And at some point, you start thinking a lot about cities and your own role in that. And I was challenged by a colleague of mine, says, "Well, what do you want to say about all of this?" And the result was the first book, which came out in 2011 called For the Love of Cities. And that sort of put me on this trajectory, this pathway of being the city love guy. Or some people call me the best friend of cities, which I kind of like that one. So, that's kind of nice.

That's cool. I like that too.

Yeah.

So it's, it's funny because reading your book, so I'm gonna tie the, the listeners to a little bit of my history and how we, we came connect, we became connected, um, through the Love Lakeland organization and Howard Wiggs and his wife Linda Bagley Wiggs. Um, we started on this journey of, you know, really trying to instill the love of Lakeland into our community. And along the way we, we, um, I think it was, um, uh, Raulston? Was that— is that the name of the real estate guy that invited you to speak at Fort Southern?

Yes. Yeah, I think that you're— I think you're correct. Yes.

So they invited me as a guest to listen to you speak, and I felt like you were speaking to me that day, speaking of the creatives. And I'm not an artist in any way, shape, or form. I can barely draw a light bulb. I really struggle with trying to make things look pretty.

Creative is a big idea. Yeah, it's not just artists. Creative is a much bigger idea. Yes.

Yes. So it, but at the same time that the energy of your message really resonated in my heart. And after that, I thought, okay, there's this person, we brought him in, there's value in this message, but I could also see some of the like stuff sliding over the heads of a lot of people in the room. It was a very, a very, uh, real estate focused, um, a little bit more of the smokestack chasing kind of group of people. And, and, and I could just feel like I was a fish out of water. Um, but with Howard and Linda and their your vision for Love Lakeland, it felt like it was a really good fit. So we kind of pursued bringing you in to do a workshop and connecting some of those dots. And, and I just felt really, really excited that you were infusing something that we all felt, you know, Howard, Linda, and I, about loving our city. And so we— it captivated me. Your book, For the Love of Cities, just totally captivated me and brought me into the space of, I'm not alone, there are other people out there who want to share this love for their cities. And so you really were a powerhouse for me in that regard.

Well, thank you. That's nice to hear. Very edifying, actually. So, yeah.

So, um, really I wanted to know, like, tell me the story of the book revisited. So did you just suddenly say, hey, 10 years, I want to revise, I want to do an update?

Or—

because I think the authors— I mean, the, the audience is really going to probably want to pick up this one and maybe not necessarily the other one because it's really the same book but with just some updated pieces to it, correct?

Correct. So, this is both opportunity and circumstance. The opportunity was 10 years is always one of those sort of significant numbers. It's like, "Oh, 10-year anniversary. We should do something." Circumstance was COVID and basically, all my travels went to completely came to a stop. I did remote presentations and whatnot, but that's not the same. So, the circumstance allowed me to say, "All right, I have this." idea, you know, because if in a normal year, I probably said, oh, it'd be kind of cool to do a, you know, 10-year anniversary edition, and that never would have happened, uh, in part because I'd also just finished another book in the end of 2019. And I am— people say, you say I'm a writer, I say I'm a speaker who occasionally writes. Um, but so yeah, you kind of have to work back into it. But obviously, you know, 2020 was an extraordinary year, um, for all of us. And so, I felt kind of like, "I got to take advantage of this time." And so, the result was this opportunity to go back and look at something that I had written, thought about, embraced fully 10 years ago. What's changed? How have I changed? Where was I right? Where was I wrong? And that's an interesting process for anybody who's ever had the opportunity for a bit of self-reflection, well, personally, professionally, however you want to do it. I encourage it because it's kind of interesting to go, "Wow, I was really wrong about that," or "I was really right about that," or "Wow, that was a good, nice turn of phrase." trees there. So, so yeah, so the result was, you know, this one, uh, there, For the Love of Cities Revisited. And yeah, uh, for the most part, almost the entire text remains from the first book. And what I've done is, if you've ever watched like a director's commentary of a movie that you hopefully you love or are interested in, um, that's kind of the way I approach the book. It's like, you know, there's almost, there's like these two threads. So the, you break out the, the areas where I'm talking about new stuff is highlighted differently. So, it's clearly, you know, a new take on something like that. So, yeah, it was really kind of cool. And I very much enjoyed it. So, yes, I do encourage you maybe this one. I think I actually will probably just phase out the other one because for the most part, I think everything that, you know, there's a couple of typos I missed the first time, you know, little things like that. But for the most part, yeah, it is the old book with a lot of new stuff.

Yeah. I've been really enjoying it. And I really kind of scan the old stuff and then I really go into the new version of the stuff. And then I go back and I kind of read a little bit more specifically. That's kind of how I've been approaching it. So, so tell me a little bit about the journey. So from, from Richard, Florida to— all right, now suddenly you're going to write a book and—

well, there's a couple steps in between there. Yeah.

Tell me that. Tell me a little bit about those steps.

So in the early 2000s, I was an internet marketing consultant. I had actually owned a web development shop for 6 years. I sold that to my partner, went sort of solo, and yeah, just kind of kicking that around at the time. But as I said, I got very involved in Creative Tampa Bay and you know the adage that says you are what you think about? Well, at one, some point I realized I was thinking a lot more about cities and my community than I was about sort of internet marketing kind of stuff. And so, that passion became sort of the avocation as well. And in 2004, I met a gentleman who probably had an even bigger impact on me. His name is Charles Landry. And Charles is sort of the English Richard Florida. In fact, he's been doing it even longer than Richard. And Hugh became a huge fan of his. And if you recall how I present, I show pictures and I tell stories. That is very much in the style of Charles Landry. He inspired me. You know, I remember seeing him and thinking, wow, when I grew up, I want to be Charles Landry because he's this— he travels the world. He talks to people. He sort of takes it all in and sort of thinks about it and then presents this wonderful story, sort of narrative, the story back to people. Wow, what a great job. It's like, okay. And I've kind of, you know, lucky enough, I've kind of become that, you know? So, at some point, Charles sort of, you know, I'd worked with him, I'd worked with Richard as doing some— as producing conferences and all this stuff. Charles was really the one who said, hey, what do you, you want to say about all this stuff? You know, it's like, don't just parrot my talk or Richard or some of this other stuff. What are you thinking about? And that's an interesting challenge. There. And I'd never written a book, obviously. So, I start noodling on that. And the other key event that happened was in like 2007, I got invited by a friend of mine to come up to Michigan. She was actually part of the Michigan Cool Cities Initiative, 2007. She goes, "Hey, you should come up and see what's happening here in Michigan because the narrative that you're hearing in the paper, it's like, yeah, there's a lot of very negative stuff going on." Think back, Michigan, 2007, that was a— dire time. She said, it's not all— it's not the, the entire story. It's like, you need to come up and see this. I said, okay. So I went up, and for a week she took me all around Michigan, and we spent a lot of time in Detroit as well. And she showed me some really amazing stories of stuff that was happening underneath the, the, the, the media narrative. And I met some amazing people who were clearly in love with their city, their state, right? Especially Detroit. And I came away from that thinking, "Wow, there's this narrative that Detroit is just circling the drain right now." I says, "But no, as long as there are people like the ones I met who are still desperately, passionately in love with that messed-up city, this city will never truly fail." And I kind of realized it clicked then. I says, "You know what? Nobody was talking about these people." And clearly, they are part of that lifeblood that keeps communities going and in the best of times, actually elevates communities to whole other levels. But nobody was talking about them as a sort of a natural resource for communities as well. I said, you know what? That's what I should talk about. These people who love their cities. And that started that process. And so between 2007 and 2010, when I ultimately wrote the book, there's a lot of sort of thinking and fact-finding and gathering that. And so, yeah, bam, those two things I think were really seminal.

And one of the things about how you write about these people who love their cities is that they kind of live under the underground. Like they're not necessarily always people like a mayor who decides they wanna start an initiative and create a Love Lakeland, you know, uh, organization. So kind of speak to that a little bit. Like anybody in the audience or listening, um, if, if, if, if they're feeling compelled to try and do something to show their love for the city, you know, what would you say to somebody who's just kind of sitting on the sidelines and saying, ah, I don't really matter. I'm nobody, you know, nobody's gonna care.

Yeah, you're right. And I named this group of people, I call them co-creators because they're essentially co-creating the experience of the city. You know, it's kind of the mayor's job to create the content that is the city. You expect the mayor to be the champion and the cheerleader of your city. And certainly Mayor Wiggs was, you know, that and then some. You know, I meet a lot of mayors who are, you know, they're administrators and they're good at that. But, you know, not every mayor is that champion and that cheerleader the way he was for your city. There. And when that happens, that's a great thing. And so, a lot of people look at that and go, "Well, I can't do that." And the point that I make throughout the books is that small things, little things that sometimes we do for our own amusement are community building, are city building. And those little things do matter because you do something, a little backyard festival there, you do a porch performances. There in the neighborhood. And people like it. And you build a little momentum and a little bit of confidence and realize, wait a minute, this makes my neighborhood, makes my little world a little bit better. And we start that process and realizing that it doesn't take a lot of money. It doesn't take a lot of official permissions and all this kind of stuff that we as ordinary people who live in a place, we can make a difference if we put our minds to it. And again, start very small is what I always tell people. It's like a lot of big ideas out there, a lot of great big ideas. Big ideas are expensive, they're time-consuming, and you will run headlong into the bureaucracy and the red tape that is your city. Start small, start underground, and, you know, don't ask for permission, ask for forgiveness kind of thing. So yeah.

So that is such great advice. So it's going to lead me to my next question and, and talking about the creative class and really what entrepreneurs do in their communities as well. And, and so speak to that. So you were a small business owner before you kind of moved into this, you know, speaker, writer, you know, persona that you have today.

Yeah. Yeah.

And still a small business. Exactly. Um, but you know, I'm being in the entrepreneurial space and Elevate Polk generally is, uh, our audience is entrepreneurs who are, we're telling their stories, their entrepreneurial journey.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so I think sometimes when you're starting small, your minimum viable product is like, what is the very smallest thing that you can do to bring to the market and start to test? Um, but what would you say to some starting entrepreneurs or even some, some, you know, further down the path entrepreneurs who are really wanting to feel connected to their cities, but maybe don't because it's, it's also, it's like a two-way street. You can't expect the city to come to you. You kind of have to come to the city.

Yeah. I certainly, there are, when we talk about entrepreneurs, a lot of times we immediately focus on like high-tech kind of thing because, you know, entrepreneurship, that's, you know, seems to be, it's like, oh, what are you building? You know, uh, and telecom and, you know, the internet apps, et cetera, et cetera. That's all great and I applaud that. But entrepreneurship is a restaurant, it's a coffee shop, it's a food truck. And oftentimes those are the types of businesses that actually seem to have a more direct impact on a place. You know, app developers can live anywhere and, you know, it's kind of invisible what they do. But a food truck, you can't hide a food truck. It's there, right? And that's the kind of thing that when it's there and it's present and hopefully it's thriving, that creates a sense of place. It's like that, you know, there could be food trucks, there's food trucks everywhere, but only Lakeland, only my community has that food truck, right? So, there is this sense that entrepreneurs, especially the ones who are creating this hyper-local stuff, you know, the kind of a little boutique retail of the stuff that maybe regional artists and creatives and craftspeople make, something like that. The local, you know, farmers market. These are the kinds of things that, you know, don't necessarily— we, yes, they're entrepreneurial, but we often get entrepreneurial has been sort of, you know, not stolen, but has been sort of, you know, big-footed by this tech idea. And it's not, especially when it comes to, you know, building a sense of place. It is those tangible kinds of things, the places where we gather, the places where we break bread together and have coffee. That we can walk up and sort of touch. Those things matter incredibly to places. And the message that I would also tell cities is that, yes, we are in an economic development game. And of course, payroll taxes, that matters, number of employee full-time equivalent jobs, all of that is an important metric and all that stuff. But, okay, yes, Outback Steakhouse, I like Outback Steakhouse. But having an Outback Steakhouse or another Outback Steakhouse in your backyard doesn't necessarily create a better sense of place. No one ever said, hey, we had the best experience at the Lakeland Outback Steakhouse. And again, I'm not ragging on Outback. I like Outback. I like the fact they're kind of a local, you know, sort of restaurant here. But the fact is, is that we don't sort of cherish the hyperlocal, the smaller stuff because again, they don't score as well on that economic development scorecard in terms of full-time equivalent jobs and in terms of payroll taxes. But they They do score incredibly high in terms of creating a sense of place.

Hi, I'm really glad you're speaking my language. I knew you would, but just speaking of that, so there's sometimes seems to be a conflict between this placemaking and connecting to place and this traditional economic development mindset, and they don't necessarily always jive in a, we're swimming in the same direction kind of mindset. So can you speak to that as far as how smaller entrepreneurs can kind of maybe rise up and make a statement of how important we are in our communities?

Well, I will say this, that in the 10+ years that I've been sort of since the first book came out and since I've been sort of thinking about this stuff, I have seen a pretty significant sea change in the way economic development is done for, you know, for communities. Again, it used to be about, you know, again, chasing businesses and smokestacks and call centers and all that kind of stuff. Economic development has recognized that it is very much about placemaking, that everybody has land deals, everybody has tax incentives, that the way you're ultimately going to differentiate your place is on the experience of what it's like to, you know, to live in Lakeland, in Polk County versus, you know, in Lansing, Michigan, something like that. Uh, there, so yes, there has been movement there. And I think that there's also been some awareness that, um, that these small companies that grow your own, if we support and show a little love for the local companies, hey, you know, there's been certainly enough success stories in pretty much every community that somebody could say, well, what about XYZ company? They started out in this little incubator that we had attached to the community center. And now they've got 25 people, they've got contracts. And so, yes, there's that local success story. So, yeah, I think that I think communities are figuring out a nice balance in all of this. We might argue, you and I might argue for more support for small businesses and those startup entrepreneurs. Okay. And I would generally agree with that. But for the most part, I think they're recognizing that you have to have a bit of everything. Yes, you still want to go hunt the whales. Fine there. But at the same time, we also need to be sort of those economic gardeners and sort of figure out How do we nurture and create an environment where more people say, you know what, I want to try this?

Yeah, absolutely. And I, I do see that, um, that rise. And I think that you're a part of that. I mean, you, you came into the community, you shared your ideas, some of it landed, some of it didn't. But then we always can go back to that day that, that guy that came in and talked about loving our city, you know, is something that we can, it's a moment in time, but it's still a message that can continue to live on.

Well, but, you know, not so, you know, in many ways all I was doing was kind of echoing and giving sort of a bit of credence to what Mayor Wiggs was talking about at the time. You know, of course you say, of course, you know, politicians, I love my city, but he really kind of took it to another level. You know, it wasn't just sort of lip service. And he says, look, you know, it starts out as volunteerism, you know, and what are you going to do for your place? You know, sort of that John F. Kennedy moment, you know, and ask not what you can do for your country or Or what? No, not what you can do for you, what you can do for your country. And so, yeah, so I give him a lot of credit there, you know. And so I recognize it's kind of my job as sort of the outside expert, if you will. Um, part of my job is to say the things that locals like you have been sort of touting all along, but it's just heard differently because, hey, he's not from here, so, you know, he must be smarter than everybody else in the room. Uh, and that's sort of, you know, that again, I recognize that that's my job is to is to help buttress the arguments that you guys are making on a day-to-day basis, you know, in your own community.

Do you have any cities that you would say are really advanced in this, like, as a balance? So you know that you've got to have the whales, and you know that you also have to— but you, but you really kind of want to walk through that in a balanced way, or at least some of the leadership has, has it figured out and they're moving in a direction that seems to be making progress in that, in that regard?

Yeah. You know, I don't want to be too much of a homer here, but I think St. Petersburg has done a fantastic job in a sense because I've seen, again, I've lived here 27 years. I remember the early days when downtown St. Petersburg was absolutely moribund. I mean, nothing going on here. So, you know, and certainly there have been missteps online, but, you know, I look around here, you know, walk around on a Tuesday night. You walk in downtown St. Pete, you go, there's people everywhere. There's restaurants, there's shops, there's this vibrancy. There's, you know, there's scooters and bikes and Onewheels. And it's like, oh, this is, you know, kind of amazing. Uh, so, and the pier, you know, here in downtown St. Pete— and I would encourage any of you folks who've not sojourned over to St. Petersburg since the pier opened last year, um, it is not the pier that you knew maybe growing up, the inverted pyramid. It's kind of an amazing experience out there. And it's been one of those really amazing catalysts for an already vibrant sort of city. And I guess maybe also because you spend more time in your hometown than anywhere else, you're probably more aware of the changes there. So, I think St. Pete has found this really interesting balance in all of that, of looking at small things. We passed a banning— we banned the plastic straw. In like 2019, 2018, something like that. And people said, "That's a stupid thing. It's like, why are we— we got bigger problems than this." But the thing is, is that we can look at little problems. And the thing is, is the plastic straw is actually not a little problem. It's a little thing, but done thousands, millions of times over and over every day, it actually becomes a big problem. So, in some ways, taking on big problems is hard, but maybe the best way to do that is to do it in a small way that we can do over and over again that actually allows us to address some of those really big problems that's there. And it starts to change your mindset. It's like, oh, if we start thinking about that straw, then we're going to start thinking about some other things. And maybe we create that sort of forward momentum around that. So, yeah, I will give props to St. Pete in doing that. And if you push me on some others, I would go back to some of the Midwestern cities that are sort of near and dear to my heart as well, Cleveland and Pittsburgh and Milwaukee and Minneapolis and places like that that have a lot of heart and that seem to have figured out this nice balance between new development, old sort of this old authenticity that's there, and not being ridiculously expensive compared to some New York City or Seattle and San Francisco. I love those cities, but man, you better be you better be making a lot, you know, or working for Google if you're going to live in downtown San Francisco.

Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's an important part too. I think the affordable housing conversation and, and just making downtowns more livable. I think we're working in that direction in Lakeland and affordable. Yeah, exactly. Livable and affordable. And I mean, we've got walkable down, you know, we're working on a road diet right now that is not a very popular, you know, thing for people driving through, but at the end of the day, you know, it makes it more walkable.

Yes, and it will be better for the city as a whole.

Yeah, it's making those little changes that become uncomfortable for a while, and then they become a way of life, and 10 years from now nobody remembers.

Exactly. I mean, think about it, you know, so much of our, our design around places has been in service of the car, right? Uh, I mean, for the, you know, pretty much our lifetimes, you know, our parents, and, and we are the children of, you know, uh, of of that age, our cities reflect this notion that it's all about the car and transportation, you know, A to B as efficiently as possible. It's like, no, it really shouldn't be because, you know, it's hard to have great street life at 45 miles an hour, right?

Right.

We slow the cars down and they become just part of the city, not the focus of the city. Then you're going to see some really interesting things happen, you know? So, yeah, good on you for doing the road diet.

Yeah, and it, you know, obviously it wasn't really a city decision either. It was a state decision, um, you know, the FDOT, and there were some conversations and a lot of people. So that's, that brings me to like civic engagement when it comes to listening to citizens who have ideas or who want to share their input. Um, what are your suggestions or guidance in that regard? Because it seems like it's all over the place. I mean, if you're counting on Facebook to be a place where people are being heard, that, that's a kind of a poor idea.

No, that's like, that's the mud pit as it were.

No. Absolutely.

Well, there's two kinds of civic engagement. There's the kind that cities feel like they have to do because like they're like ticking a box. It's like, okay, we got this project. I guess we need to do some civic engagement. So we're going to have, you know, we're going to, we'll do a town hall and or we'll invite folks to come into council for comments. And they'll complain about it. We'll take our lumps for, you know, 2 minutes at a time. And that's sort of the perfunctory sort of idea of civic engagement. The other way to do this is to actually maybe have a conversation. And I am actually not a big fan of like town halls around that because they can be hijacked by people with an agenda, right? It's usually, it's the loudest, crankiest voice that gets heard the most. And most people aren't that. It's like, hey, I've got an opinion. I'd like to see this or this. They don't feel as sort of confident or as arrogant to put that out there in that particular context. So, I mean, I've seen cities do some really interesting things to sort of flip that idea around. But instead of doing a town hall, they say, you know, for the week of whatever, for, you know, September 15th through the 20th, the city manager is going to be at this particular coffee shop and he's going to have his office is going to be in the coffee shop. That week. Please come in and talk to him about this particular thing or anything else that's bothering you. So you sort of, you take that out of the town hall kind of thing and you make it, you come to me and we can have a conversation. And you could do that in a number of ways. You could, hey, instead of the mayor's office, like, hey, we're going to be down in the lobby of City Hall all week. You know, someone from the mayor's office will always be at the desk. Just come in, have a cup of coffee. We got donuts, we've got this. And we can have a conversation. And again, instead of somebody standing up and grandstanding around this, like, hey, we're actually communicating, we might actually be able to have a dialogue in that sense, breaking down that particular barrier. And then one other thing that I will— I do tell cities this. When we do that sort of civic engagement and we ask that question of people and we, you know, we get them into a room to do sort of a charrette or something like that, We ask them, hey, what do you think about this? What do you think about a road diet? You know, there. And to their credit, people will try to answer that question. But they try to— they're trying to speak a language that they don't understand. FDOT, that's a whole other thing. You know, what's the— why are cars— why is it this wide, this, you know, the safety issues? But they're trying, right? So I tell cities, it's like, okay, instead of maybe asking the question that way, ask them what do they feel? What do they want to feel when they drive down the road? What do you want to feel when you drive through this particular neighborhood? It's like, well, I'd like to feel feel like relaxed instead of stressed out. It's like, okay, we can design that there. But we get, I think, a more honest sort of assessment of what it is important to them when we ask them that question. And it's one of those questions that honestly, a lot of people are not necessarily comfortable with because it feels squishy, it feels emotional. It's like, and stuff like that instead of technical. Technical is like, oh, it's nuts and bolts. It's like, then we're looking at this as a mechanism. When it's emotional, we're looking at this as sort of an organic kind of thing. And that gets into sort of a different feeling. And maybe that's been sort of the— if anything, maybe that is part of the legacy of my work is to get people to embrace that idea of an organic aspect to their community and treat it as such and allow for this emotional context to actually happen.

Yeah. Well, love is squishy. And so, when you use the word love, you— and it's also an action word. So, tying those squishy thoughts to, you know, all right, well, what are we going what are we going to do to make you— how that— how you want to feel possible, right? I think is the two ways that it kind of comes together and converges to make, you know, progress possible for the people.

Yes.

So do you remember— so one of the things you write about in the book is, is kind of temporary art. And when you said, you know, ask for forgiveness and not permission and, you know, things like that. So I don't know if you knew that you were kind of, I think, the catalyst for one of our local artists, David Collins, who started to put up temporary artwork in the downtown area. Are you familiar with David? Do you know David at all?

I am not, no. Tell me.

Okay, so two, two or three things that he's done. The first thing he did was he, he brought models, people, and we wrapped plastic around them, and then he cut the plastic off of them and then painted them. So these were actually physical people that then he placed like little statues around the town, and they were just doing different things. They were by garbage cans, and they were you know, sitting by trees, and they were sitting in chairs, and they were just doing all these different cool things, and it was just temporary. And suddenly one day we woke up and all of these bodies, these people, were what, you know, were set up in downtown. And so it was a conversation piece, it was something that was really kind of new and different. People were starting to ask questions. He set up like a little Google Map so that you could find out where all of them were, similar to our swans. We have swans all over. Yes, downtown Lakeland and whatnot. So he did this and then they were gone, you know, and it was like this was just a conversation that Lakeland had. And if you were here during that time, if you were a visitor during that time, you probably came in and saw that really cool, you know, piece of art and wondered what it was. And maybe there was some stuff that you researched. Um, the other thing that he did was he started to do, um, using plastic. He wrapped— and this may have been an idea that he got from something you wrote, I don't know exactly where the story— where the story that it came from, but he took our telephone poles— or not our telephone poles, our light poles downtown— and wrapped them in Saran Wrap and then painted them in bright and fun colors so that the, the color— they become colorful light poles instead of black light poles. And then when he was— when they started to fade and the weather started to wear it down, they just unwrapped the plastic and threw it away, and that was that.

Right. Good on him.

And so he's done— and then he's also done some murals. So you— it's really interesting, just, I think there's a connection to absolutely how he might have gotten permission, because I don't think he did this like overnight, like, surprise, I did this, you're gonna have to tear it down yourself. Um, I think he did go through some hoops to get these things approved, um, and commissioned and, and different things for, for later things. The other thing he did recently, most recently, was he— one of our trees downtown in Munn Park, he, he did the same thing. He kind of wrapped it in some safe plastic and then painted it like a giraffe, so it looked like the tree was a giraffe. And then recently he did the same thing and made the tree hot pink. So it's just kind of fun to see those kinds of things happening. And I think that, you know, the conversation for me, the way I watched it kind of unfold was it started with For the Love of Cities and you kind of fusing, because I know David was there at that workshop.

Okay. Well, one of the things I talk about is this notion of surprise and delight. Yeah. There's nothing better than like, you go, oh my God, that's so cool. You know, that moment of like, wow, you know, that wasn't planned, you know, and it's like it just sort of appears. And I get that it's hard sometimes for cities to do surprise and delight because they have to do planning and there's regulations and insurance and there's all kinds of stuff. Cities doing public art is always a bit of a challenge because it's usually public art by sort of committee. Like, what's the least offensive thing that we can do that's, you know, so yeah, so sometimes it really does fall upon the creative people who live in a place who want to do something a little bit out there. So good on you for, you know, for this, uh, this person for doing that. That and to continue to do that, because that is one of those ways they're showing their love for their city. And that's one of the things that when, when you and other people, they look at that giraffe, you know, uh, that's, you know, that is, that is the trees, like, they go, that's cool, that's amazing. It's like, what a, you know, I'm, I'm happy, I'm happy there. I'm happy to be here. I'm happy to live here. And I'm happy to know that there's somebody else in my community who does stuff like this.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I love it. And, and it It speaks to the flexibility I think that the city is starting to have. I think you said earlier, we're making progress. I mean, I think we all have to celebrate what progress looks like and how we're going to advance this dialogue that started for me in 2011 and now continues, or '13, and continues to grow in my heart. So I want to speak for a minute a little bit about like, all right, so I'm one of those people who have been peppering my city with love, doing everything that I can and in whatever ways that I can to celebrate, you know, what's going on, all the great things that are happening in our community, um, specifically toward entrepreneurship because that's my, my jam.

Yeah.

So let's just say you love your city and you go all in on that passion. You know, you do it for a, a long period of time.

Right.

And after a while it starts to feel like it's just a one-way relationship. Like almost like, yeah. Okay, well we like you while you're here, David Collins, keep doing what you're doing. 'But when you go away, it'll be all right. We really don't need you.' And so it starts to feel less fulfilling, because love should feel fulfilling in my opinion.

Absolutely.

So tell me what you, what you would say to a person who's starting to feel discouraged.

Well, to them I would say that, you know, maybe your city is not showing you the official love that you'd like, but I guarantee you that there are people who appreciate, you know, your— what you do. And maybe one of the things, it's like, it's okay to actually take a bow when you do this stuff. And a lot of times that's the thing is a lot of these folks, these creative folks, they go out and they do these kind of amazing things and they kind of do it sort of under the radar, almost guerrilla style. So, they're not really looking to take a bow. And I certainly, you know, I think we all can respect that. But you know what? It's okay to take a bow, you know, sometimes. So, that would be there. And the flip side of that, and I actually wrote about this in my last book, 2019, The Emotional Infrastructure of Places. In fact, it's actually, I think it's the end of the book. One of the things I say to cities is cherish your co-creators. You just think that people like David, that's his name, David?

Yep.

You just think folks like David just happen. It's like, oh, that's just David being David. Well, I got to tell you, David being David is extraordinary. And you should appreciate that and recognize that that is a beautiful, wonderful thing and not sort of just, you know, and say thank you occasionally. And especially the cities. And I get that sometimes it's hard for them to figure out, well, what are we gonna do there? Maybe it's just, you know, on the official city, you know, Twitter feed or the Facebook, you know, thing or the city's Instagram account. Take a picture and say, hey, thanks David. We appreciate the giraffe. A little thing like that goes a long, long way. To keeping that co-creator invested that, hey, somebody officially noticed. It's like, I know my friends love it, you know, and I get some love on, you know, on social media from the, you know, the folks there. But did the mayor tweet this out? I'm, you know, I'm pretty sure Mayor Wiggs would've, you know, been the kind of guy who would take a picture and say, yeah, this is more of this. But that's not everybody's style. But I think it kind of needs to, you need that recognition because again, We sort of take it for granted that David is going to continue to do this. Like, no, he's a human being, and at some point, life is going to catch up with him. Somebody, something else is going to, you know, pull his attention away, and you will be lesser for that. Now, hopefully along the way, what he's doing is he's inspiring more people to come out and do something interesting and fun and creative for their city. That, I think, is the magic of the co-creators is that they are, if not self-replicating, they create others in their likeness. That you see, hey, there's somebody doing— that's really cool. It's like, oh yeah, it's like, I could do better. It's like, great, go do it. Uh, yeah. And hopefully you create that virtuous cycle where good things compound upon good things and, and more people feel inclined to go out and do something fun and interesting and creative like that. But I think to, you know, if I was the city, I would say find a way, it's like, say thank you, figure out a, a creative way to say thank you to David, uh, there. And maybe make his next project just a little bit easier. I mean, you know, it sounds like they have been working with him, uh, there. And to David, you know, if, um, uh, you know, if he's getting a little tired, it's like— and I understand that, I even wrote about that— it's like, at some point, you know, it's okay, take a break, go recharge. The thing is, is that co-creators don't really leave the stage for long. It's in their nature, right? So if David backs off and says, hey, you know, I'm out, I'm gonna do some stuff, yeah, I'm pretty sure somewhere down the road, he's going to get the itch, go, man, I— there's this really cool spot, I could do this. And he's back. It's kind of like malaria. It never really goes away. It will come back cyclically like that. This sort of co-creative disease, if you will. It's like it's— it is in their nature, you know, there. And at some point, you can only deny your nature for so long. And hopefully, you know, David and others like him and her, um, there, they feel like, yeah, this is who I am, and this is how I express my, my sense of creativity, my sense of community. My love, I express it this way. Hopefully that's the case. Wow.

That was beautiful. Thank you for that. I think what we did, what Howard did, was introduce while he was still mayor, the City Maker Award. I think I shared that with you when we first started. And so they get honored. David Collins was honored as one of our early City Makers.

There you go.

And we just, we were perpetuating that. So we're going to bring that back into the community soon, hopefully in January of 2022. But what you just shared there was powerful. I think those were my quotable quotes of this discussion because it's really, you know, the encouragement and the acknowledgment, like you said, is so important. It's not a big deal. It's just, I see you, you know, I see you. You're important to me. You're good. You're a good human being. You don't have to do a whole bunch of grandiose things to acknowledge that another person is doing something meaningful in the community.

Isn't that the nature of love? It's like we tend to think, you know, Rom-coms tell us it's about this big grand gesture, but love and relationships are the accumulation of small things done over and over, little things. That's the daily thing, you know, there that shows it maybe more than anything else. I'm all for the big gesture. That's great, too. But, you know, we prove it, you know, day to day, every day there with our significant others, with our friends, our family, and with our communities.

Absolutely. Well, we're gonna wrap up, so I wanted to just see if there's some things, how people can connect with you, where they can go buy the book. I think it's available in some local— I think you said something about in your first book, you said that the local booksellers were kind of a dying breed, but then you, you, you corrected that. So where are you making the book available?

Well, uh, certainly, you know, the most convenient place, it is available through Amazon. I worked with, um, St. Petersburg Press. This time. So, you can order it through your local bookstores as well. Here, we're doing some local book signings here in St. Pete. Maybe that's something we could talk about. Maybe it would be kind of fun to do a little book signing there.

Oh, I'd love that.

Maybe we could talk about that there. And then, you mentioned maybe trying to do something in 2022. I'd love that to come back and let's restart that fire there. Just keep it going, I think is a better way to put it. So yeah.

Is there somewhere that they can follow you? Are you prolific on Instagram or Twitter or Facebook? Where is the best place?

No, uh, forloveofcities.com or facebook.com/forloveofcities. I try to post some interesting stuff. I'm not, you know, yeah, I'm, I'm not prolific in that sense, but, um, yeah, hopefully, you know, you'll see something interesting. So yeah.

Fantastic. Well, I do think I wanna follow up with you on a book signing, and I think I know the perfect place. One of the people who've been a guest on our podcast, Stephanie, does the Buena Market, and it's a pop-up market, and she does some really cool things. So maybe we can coordinate that with her. So sounds like a lot of fun. Super, super delightful to have you on the show today, Peter. Thank you so much for being here. And I'm just gonna go ahead and do my closing wrap up. That's a wrap. Thanks for listening to this week's show. And if you'd like to help us get the word out about this podcast, check out the post on our Facebook page, share it, or better yet, comment with your favorite part of the episode. We're looking forward to learning what you loved about this conversation. And if you have some ideas for upcoming episodes, We'd love to hear from you. We'll see you next week, Cook County.