Episode 22: HR Doesn't Always Say No: Breaking HR Stereotypes with Julie Wheeler

Well, in the case of Clarity hr, we don't just provide compliance advice. We walk in and we get to know your culture, your environment, your employees. We are much more of a hands on organization.

So do you ever hate wearing the HR hat in your own organization? If you do, we're going to talk to HR business partner Julie Wheeler today from Clarity HR and how you can take that hat off and you can share it with her. So, Julie, thanks for coming to the podcast today.

Thank you for having me.

So I'd like you to tell us what led you into the world of hr. Why did you want to be an HR person?

I didn't. You didn't? No, I never did.

So you're still a hostage?

I am. Okay. Truth Now, I actually took a job as an executive admin. I was trying to slow down and there was supposed to be just a little bit of HR involved. And here I am today, 23 years later with a law degree and having practiced employment law and back to my roots in hr.

So what's one unexpected thing about HR that surprised you when you got started?

I think probably the amount of resistance and the preconceived ideas.

Oh, tell me more about that.

Well, there's a stereotype for HR people.

No, not at all.

Oh, yes. And we work every day to break that mold. In my organization, we are not the people that say no all the time. We are not the people that tell business owners how to run their business. We don't want employees to be unhappy. We don't want black and white rules that we can't help people. So it really is interesting and has been over the years, every time I've gone into a different organization, that preconceived notion of HR unapproachable and HR staunchy and HR rules, and that's all we are in larger organizations, probably more so. But in small organizations, it doesn't have to be that way.

So why do you think so many small business owners believe that HR always says no?

I don't know. Unless it's just past experience, maybe experience having been in larger organizations or they liken us to employment lawyers. I said no a lot more when I was an employment attorney because that was my job. Yeah. Now my job is to try and make the business successful and the employees successful. It's a dual purpose. So I'm not just strictly protecting the business, and it's really a much more fulfilling role.

All right, so let's start with the basics of fractional hr. Can you tell our audience what that is? And how it works.

Fractional HR is the opportunity for employers who may not have the need for a full time HR person or the resources for a full time HR person to actually have the benefits of a human resources person on their staff. We come in and we look at where they are. Do they have a handbook? Do they have processes in place? And then we work on a time frame that they designate. So if they only want to see us a couple hours a week, that's fine. If they want to see us 20 hours a week, that's fine. If they want to see us initially more to get them up to speed and then back down, we can do that. So we're kind of the on demand HR people that you don't have on payroll and you don't have to provide benefits to.

So in understanding you do all of the things that a standard HR department would do in an organization, you just do it at a fraction of the time.

Exactly.

Okay. What are some common HR challenges small business owners face that they don't even realize are HR problems? Like the great question.

I think that the biggest issue is procrastination. Business owners because they're afraid of employees. And they hear all the horror stories about lawsuits and huge, huge settlements and huge jury awards. They have employees that may not be the best fit for their organization, but they're afraid to deal with them. And so they procrastinate those decisions and it actually becomes more costly to them than if they address them head on.

Can you give me an example of that?

Sure. We had a client that had a problem employee. Everybody knew this person was a problem employee and nobody wanted to deal with it. There was always an excuse not to move forward. And that employee turned out to cause some pretty serious issues. A false workers comp claim, a false short term disability claim. It was pretty ugly. It was pretty ugly.

Costly to the employer too?

Yes, very costly to the employer. And the result was the same. So all they did was buy themselves more trouble in procrastinating that decision.

So coming in while they're procrastinating, what are you doing? Because I feel like in some ways the business owner almost feels like they're a hostage, like they don't know how to make a decision. So how do you kind of lead and help them go through that process?

What we talk about is, you know, what is the value to this employee? Why are you afraid to take the next step? And by next step, I don't necessarily mean termination. I mean progressive discipline. I mean personal improvement plan, some something to notify this employee that they're not performing to the employer's expectation and they need to improve. And so we talk about it, if we want to retain this person, what do you want to see improve? How can we advise this employee to do better and maintain their position with the organization? And if you don't want to do that, what's holding you back? Why aren't you separating that relationship? What is the force that's keeping you from doing what you need to do and what's best for your organization?

So Julie, I remember being in a meeting with you and a client and we were having a conversation about an employee that was key to the organization. And at one point in time the business owner was like, but you don't understand, they are just, I don't know what we would do if we didn't have this person. And I think you looked at them and said, well have you ever looked to see. And that part of that was they had never figured out writing the job description, posting for the position. And then they did that. They were able to exit someone who was not performing in their organization and able to replace them with someone who helped their organization grow tenfold. And so sometimes it's just that simple question of have you thought about this or have you looked? And I think sometimes business owners don't even think about that. They get so bogged down in the weeds and in the day to day that they forget that they have choices.

That's exactly, exactly true. And one of the beauties of fractional HR is we're asking all the questions when we walk in. We don't know the answers. We're not part of the organization and we don't have those long standing relationships. So we may be looking at things with fresh eyes. And the business owner has just been so wrapped up in the day to day and hasn't been able to step away and look at the situation from afar.

Yeah. So let's talk about that. Stepping out and kind of looking at things. So there's a lot of small business owners, I think that believe they're not big enough for hr. Like we don't need, we don't need HR support. So what would you say to that?

I would say if you have an employee, you need HR support. I agree. And especially if it's family.

What do you mean? Everybody gets along in a family business.

Sure they do. I think that what business owners forget and interestingly one of the things that business owners really seem to have a hard time with is employee handbooks. That's a Sticking point. They feel like if they have an employee handbook now, they've got all these rules that they have to follow too and they don't have the freedom to run their organization the way they'd like. And then the other piece of that is they think it's written in stone like it's non, it can never be changed. And I tell employers your employee hymnbook is a guideline. It helps employees understand the organization and what your expectations are. But it's ever changing. It's a living document. And anything that's not working for your organization, we can simply change. It's that easy. So employers tend to get themselves worked up about a lot of things that really aren't that difficult. We can fix it.

Yeah, I like that. So oftentimes I think small businesses think that HR is just compliance. It's just following the rules and regulations. But I know that you have taught me that it's also about building a great place to work. So how does fractional HR help with that?

Well, in the case of clarity HR we don't just provide compliance advice. We walk in and we get to know your culture, your environment, your employees. We are much more of a hands on organization. Our team, we have a team meeting every week. We bring each other up to speed on what's happening with the client. So if one of us or the main point of contact isn't available, that client has somebody to talk to. But we really do know our organizations and because we do, we're not just recruiting or writing policy based on a template. We, we know that organization and we say, you know, I know you don't want to do this. How about if we try in this way? Or how about if we do this or especially in recruiting, that's a great candidate, but it's not going to fit in that culture, no way. So we really have the ability to service the customer, I think much better than most of the HR consulting companies out there and especially the HR consulting that comes from other payroll companies. The PEO model sounds great, but those HR consultants don't get to know your company. They don't come on site. Typically they don't provide this kind of advice that we can provide because we know you. What works for one is not necessarily going to work for another company.

I think that. So I'm going to give you some quick questions. I don't know if I'm going to get quick answers, but I hope for it I'll try. What's one HR mistake you see all the time? Procrastination what's one thing every small business owner should stop doing immediately?

When it comes to HR procrastinating, I see a theme.

What's one small HR change that can make the biggest impact?

I think really sitting down and assessing your team, recognizing what you have and what you don't have and looking to fill the gaps. Setting expectations. A lot of small business owners think that by setting expectations, employees will see that as a bad thing. And it's not. Employees are looking for that. They want that. They want to understand, when I leave today, how do I know I did a good job? And if we don't provide that, then they leave in the state of confusion almost. So I think that providing boundaries, providing expectations is extremely important for your staff.

I like that. What's one HR topic business owners love to avoid but really shouldn't?

Oh, boy. I would say again, they're employee relations. They avoid having hard conversations with employees every single day. And I think that everybody would be a lot happier if they had those conversations. I think the employees have a right to know if something's not going the way the employer wants it to go. And I think the employer feels a sense of relief just saying, I need you to do this. I need you to be more proactive. I need you. You know, I think, I think that that's something that most business owners avoid like the plague.

Uncomfortable, sweaty, 10 minute conversation, right?

Yes. Because they're afraid that they're going to say something that they shouldn't. And it's. We help with that. We will even sit in on a call if it's a remote employee or if it's a zoom meeting and just listen and we tell the employer or client, look, don't worry. If you start to say something you shouldn't, we'll stop you. It's all right.

You kind of like that. You're the safety net.

Yes.

So they feel empowered and they can have the conversation. But then they know if they start to go in a different direction that you can help navigate them.

Yes, yes.

What's the biggest misconception about employee handbooks?

Again, I think that they're written in stone and they're going to have to live. Employers put off writing that handbook if they don't have one because they feel the weight of the world. Like they're making these decisions for the rest of the company's life. And it's not, we can change it tomorrow if you need it. Change tomorrow. If we put something in writing and it's not going to work, we change it. It's it's not that. That written in stone document that you have to abide by for the rest of your natural born life, we can fix it.

So if you had 30 seconds to convince a business owner that HR matters, what would you say?

I would say if you care about your business and you care about your employees, then you really need to talk to somebody in HR that cares and is available, doesn't have to be full time, doesn't have to be on payroll, but you need somebody that when something goes wrong or you're not quite sure how to do something, you know, you can pick up the phone and have a resource available to you to guide you through a process you're not familiar with.

I like that. So if a small business owner is listening right now and they're thinking, I probably need HR help, but I don't know where to start, what's the first step?

Pick up the phone. We're available. We can talk to you. We kind of assess where you're at. Do you have a handbook? If you don't, why do you think maybe you should do something about that? Do you have a process in place for onboarding? Some of the simplest things make a huge difference for a business. We did that with one of our original clients and now everything is so smooth. Everybody knows exactly how to bring somebody on board. Everybody knows exactly what to do when somebody's departing. We know how to manage performance. We know what form to fill out. And it takes all of that angst away from your, your staff and your managers. So processes are a great place to start and it also helps us to learn your business, how you want to do business.

What's a common sign to you that a company needs HR support?

Probably when you run into an employer and they say, yeah, I've got this employee I don't know what to do with. That's a common one. Or yeah, I just, I don't want to deal with that. Or no, I, you know, I didn't get around to paying him last week. Or oh, no, it's happened. Just basic, kind of some basic questions that somebody will hit me with that they don't think is a big deal, but it could really be a big deal.

Or they say, attention, all my people are contractors. I don't have employees.

Oh, Lord. Yeah, that's a, that's a great one, Chrissy. That is a great one. Yes. Yes or no? I pay everybody by salary. Nobody, nobody's on the clock in my organization. That's, that's a favorite department of labor. Loves those. So. Yeah, I mean, there are telltale signs. Absolutely.

Okay, so let's talk a little bit about that. The real, like the 60 to 90 seconds of why it's important to have your people classed the right way. Your favorite thing. The Fair Labor Standards Act.

Yes. The greatest law ever written. The Department of Labor preys on that. They. The fines are massive, the penalties are great, and the Society for Human Resources Management estimates that probably over 80% of employers are out of compliance with the Fair Labor Standards Act. And most of them don't realize it. Wow. Yeah, it's scary. It's a scary one. And that's the quickest way for an employee to. To cause harm to an employer is to call the Department of Labor if they feel they've been treated unfairly. And it doesn't have to be because of how they're paid. When I was practicing law, I can't tell you how many employees called me and said I was unfairly terminated. Well, I'm sorry to hear that, but we don't have a wrongful termination statute, so why do you think that? And by asking questions an attorney will get to the bottom of. They ask very pointed questions of the employees, and that gets them to understanding if they have a cause of action. And it may have absolutely nothing to do with the reason that the employee came to you as an attorney. So we had that happen in a tech firm that I worked for. The employee was mad about a commission, went to the lawyer wanting to sue for. For a breach of contract, and it turned into a Fair Labor Standards act lawsuit because they claimed that she wasn't being paid properly. So things can turn on a dime for you. And you really need to make sure that you have your Dexner, especially with the Department of Labor.

So where can people connect with you, learn more about Clarity hr. And you do some free events throughout the year as well. As far as education and training for HR professionals and just for regular business owners who want to do things the.

Right way, we do. Our website is always updated with the events that we have coming up. We actually have one coming up in May. We're doing a webinar on hot topics in HR for 2025. And the website also has a Contact Us form so you can complete that and someone will contact you and see what your needs are. And there's always our phone number, 330-932-2424. Good job. I'm used to my direct dial, and it's so close that I get a little off on that sometimes.

So last thing that we always try to end the podcast with is we want to get 1% better in our businesses every day. So what is the one thing you'd like to leave for small business leaders to help them, remind them, tell them how they can get 1% better in their business Today I would love to.

See every, every business owner and every, even a manager level sit down with their list of active employees and have a pro and a con and then decide how they want to handle that. Do they want. There's, there's always going to be room for improvement. I don't care who you are. Right. So let's have those conversations with our employees. Let's set some expectations. Let's make sure the employees are doing well. Do a check in, do a check in with each of your direct reports and just see how they are. How are they handling it? You may be very surprised at some of the answers that you get specifically.

In talking to your employees.

Yes. Wow.

Julie, thank you for your time today. Thank you for sharing your wisdom about how fractional HR can be a benefit to small businesses. I look forward to having more conversations about HR compliance and all the, the fun things that happen in the world of hr.

Thank you. I appreciate your time.