Episode 41: Julie Wheeler Explains Why Promoting Without Training Sets New Managers Up for Burnout

Have you ever promoted someone to manager and then wondered how they went from your best employee to your worst employee? We're going to talk about why that happens. Stay tuned. A couple of months ago, I posted something on LinkedIn that got a lot of attention. It said, "Promoting someone without leadership training is irresponsible." And the response was incredible, and it didn't come from business owners. It came from the employees who had been promoted and just left hanging. So we see it again and again. Someone is amazing at their job, they're a great technician, a great salesperson, a great employee, so naturally they get promoted to management, but no one ever teaches them how to lead people. And suddenly they're responsible for hiring, feedback, conflict, accountability, and they're trying to figure it out on the fly and oftentimes they fail miserably. So today we're going to talk about why that happens and what businesses can do to alleviate that problem. So joining me again today is Julie Wheeler, HR Business Partner at Clarity HR. Julie works with businesses and business owners every day to help them build stronger teams and stronger leaders and guides business leaders on how to promote without failure. So Julie, welcome to the show.

Thank you, Chrissy. I'm happy to be here.

I'm excited for you to be here, and we're going to talk about this, and I think it's a common pain point that we have within organizations that we work with. So let's start here. Why do companies often promote someone into leadership without actually preparing them to lead?

I think it's expedient, right?

We need somebody in the, in the seat.

We need somebody in the seat. I don't have time to do this anymore. I don't want to manage these people, and this is the best person I have in this department, so I'm just going make them the manager. That's usually when you see it. Yeah, um, they, they just don't quite think it through. Yeah, they're not preparing for the eventual situation ahead of time and making sure somebody's trained to be a manager. So it becomes a fast decision. Yeah, and it's a decision that the rest of the group understands because it's usually the highest performer. So it's— it makes sense, but then that person gets in the role and they don't know what to do.

Do you think leaders are sometimes just too busy to train managers, or they don't want to make the time?

I think that they think they're too busy to train managers.

Well said.

I think that they are leery to train managers. I think that they're nervous. They're not they're not absolutely 100% confident in their ability to train the manager to be a manager. They're not sure what that person needs to know. What does somebody need to know in this role? And especially if it's a new role in the organization, if the leader's saying, I don't have time to manage these people anymore, it's all right. Just sit there in your office. They come to you, they complain, you give them some platitudes, and then they leave and it's all good. I—

oh, okay. So With that, I'm going to ask you another question. What are some of the biggest challenges you see when someone gets promoted into management without leadership training? They just had the, you know, go give them some platitudes and it'll be fine. Yeah, just stand there.

Just stand there and look good. I think several things happen. They don't know how to hold people accountable. There is a huge disconnect now because these are their coworkers. Yes. These are their friends.

Especially if they were like their work besties. Now you're managing your work bestie.

Exactly. It's rough. That's a huge, huge disconnect. Huge hill to climb. Um, so they avoid hard conversations. They don't want to have a hard conversation. Uh, the easiest thing to do to spend your time is micromanage. How'd you do that? Why'd you do that? Why didn't you do it the way I do it? Let me show you how I do it. So I'm back to doing what I did before I was managing because that's my comfort zone, right? Um, I think that there are inconsistent expectations because they know the people Right. Well, that's okay. I know Sarah doesn't do well with this, so I just want you to do it over here, Margaret. You do it. Yeah. And I'll let Sarah do these other things. It's inconsistent. If it's the same job, there should be the same expectations. And the better conversation is, you know, Sarah, I know this is, this is an area you struggle in. Margaret, might you help Sarah with this? I know this is your, this is your strongest area. You're so good at this. Might you help Margaret with this? But New managers don't understand that.

Yeah.

They're not familiar enough with how to do that, how to avoid the conflict. Instead, they create conflict and then they become burned out and they say, never mind, I'm not doing this anymore. It's terrible. This is a horrible job. I don't ever wanna manage people.

Yeah. And then they go find another job and you lost an amazing performer.

Absolutely.

Yeah. One thing that I've seen in organizations, you know, their lead salesperson, they promote their lead salesperson and then they wonder why all of a sudden sales are slumping.

Mm-hmm.

You just took the person that could do all the work. Or you wonder why your lead salesperson who got you, who got promoted to a sales manager, just had a heart attack because they're trying to do all of the work. I've seen that as well. Have you seen it where like the, you promote the person, but instead of managing the people or getting them to do the job, they're still doing the job themselves and the business leader go, well, it's getting done, so I don't really care.

Yep, absolutely. Because they don't know how to manage. They don't know what to do. They don't know when and how to ask the right questions.

Right.

So if, for instance, with me, if I'm concerned, have we reached out to this new client? Do we have an implementation schedule? Do we have follow-up on this? Is this— I save that. I avoid my desire in the heart, in my heart to want to do it all or to walk out and say, I just need to know if you did this, because I know that drives people nuts.

Yeah.

And I have to trust them. Right. So I wait until my team meeting and if it doesn't come up naturally in conversation, I'll say, oh yeah, so when is this implementation scheduled? I want to put that on my calendar. Not a problem. Yeah, it's, it's— so there are just subtle ways that new managers just don't know. Yeah, they're not familiar. They're not familiar with the soft skills. They're not familiar with, with the nuance. They're not familiar with the, the, the, the subliminal messages they're sending. They don't realize they're micromanaging. They don't realize that they're compensating for a deficiency here with a strength here. Yeah, they're not realizing what they're doing. And with some very basic management training, usually better served from outside the organization.

Yeah.

Um, you know, I, I, I wouldn't even necessarily— and especially if it's a new management role that's never been there before, I wouldn't necessarily have that leader do that training. Yeah. Um, that leader is doing that training from way up here, and you, you're putting a position in the middle for a reason.

Yeah.

So you really don't want that new person to be trying to do it from way up here. You really want them to come in, you want them to understand basic words that mean something, right? If somebody says, I went to the doctor and I need XYZ, your new manager will say, well, nobody else needs that, and turn around, walk away. And that's the end of the conversation because the employee is intimidated or doesn't— the new manager doesn't know that that's an ADA accommodation request because the employee doesn't have to say, I need an ADA accommodation request for it to be a BRIC, right? Right. Right. So, so some of those basic things— what is harassment? What is an ADA accommodation? What is Family Medical Leave Act? What, what are some of these basic tenets of employment law that your managers all need to be aware of? Yes.

And important because it keeps you from a lawsuit.

Absolutely. So that's— I think of it as management boot camp. And you start with those really concrete things for the managers, right? And that helps them because now they've got concrete stuff. Okay, now I'm a manager and I need to know this. Yes. And they can point to it. And then we subtly, slowly get into some of the more nuanced areas, right? The soft skills training. Yes. The stay away, the accountability training, the conflict resolution, conflict avoidance training.

Yes.

To help them manage through all the personalities that they're gonna find. Because not only do they need help with what they've got.

Yes.

And getting over the hump of moving from being one of them to above them.

To above them.

Yes.

To now you're a leader.

Exactly. Then they gotta go into recruiting and hiring. Mm-hmm. And they're gonna bring new personalities onto the team and they have to deal with those new personalities and try and assimilate those people into their current team. So there's a, that is a huge job. A management job is a huge, huge job. And I think many times leaders, don't give it enough credit.

Yeah.

Don't recognize just how hard it is to build a team and a strong team and a cohesive team that's always willing to work together and help each other. That's tough. Yeah. Learning basic rules is easy. It's, it's managing the people and the personalities that can get really sticky. And I think that, that investing in your managers and giving them some tools in their toolkit to help them work through some of those things is critical to the success of your management team.

So let's talk a little bit about, okay, you've touched on it a little bit already, but I kind of want to get a little bit more detail. You know, when someone becomes a manager for the first time, what skills do they actually need that they've probably never been taught?

Wow.

And what's the most important early on, what do you think, for success?

Um, I think you have to learn, and I think of 'em as, as two things.

Okay.

I think you have to learn vulnerability.

Yeah.

And humility. And that's gonna, that sounds really, really odd. I know. Um, but I think that you have to be willing to sit in front of your team and say, I have no damn idea. I have no clue, guys. I don't know. I can't help you. I don't know. I don't know the answer to that, but I'll find it. Yes, I will find it for you and I will get back to you. You have to be willing to say, I don't know. You have to be willing to say, can you show me how you're doing that? You have to be willing to coach, to mentor, to be a solid guide.

Okay.

To an employee. And, and always lead by example.

Yeah.

And I will, I will tell my team on any day of the week, I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. Yeah, I don't know. I've been doing this 25 years and I've never seen that one. Let's, let's figure it out.

That's a new one.

That's a new one. Let's figure it out. And I think that that's part of the reason that they actually will follow me, will listen to me, will work for me and trust me. Because I'll admit when I don't know, I don't have to know everything. That's not my job. I do. You don't pay me to know everything. No.

Do you think that's what separates strong managers from struggling ones, is the willingness to say when they don't know?

I think so. And to show vulnerability.

Okay.

I think that that's really important. I think that employees need to know you're human.

Yeah. Not— they don't necessarily need to see you laying on the floor crying in the middle of the office.

Absolutely not.

But what does vulnerability— what does reasonable vulnerability look like, Julie?

I think it looks like, you know, that's a great question. I'd never considered that. Let's brainstorm that. Let's talk about that. How do you think— what do you do? You brought it up, so you must have thought about it. Help me understand where that even came to your mind.

Yeah.

And then how will that apply here? How can we make that work? I think really, again, listening, communicating, making— respecting your employees and admitting, I don't know something, or I've never considered that, or, you know, that's a great idea. How can we implement that? Is— you don't have to lay on the floor and cry. No, you just don't have to pretend like you know everything and you've thought of everything and you always know the right way. Because we don't know.

So if a business owner is listening right now and they're realizing that they may have promoted people without training them, they did it wrong. What can they start doing now to support those leaders?

I think there are a couple of things. I think a basic kind of boot camp for new supervisors. There are some programs out there. I will, I will be completely Candid, I have had clients come to me and say, hey, I'm gonna promote this person and I really think I need to give them some training. Can you recommend a good program? Mm-hmm. And I've gone out and done the searches and it's very hard to find one that you can get when you need it. Mm-hmm.

That's the key. When you need it.

That's the key. There may be one coming in 6 months or there may be one on demand, but it's way outta your price range. Yeah. Um, Or there may be one, but it's a 3-day or a 5-day session in California for an Ohio person and the employer can't afford it. So I think you really need to think about pulling in experts that have an idea. I know many of our clients rely on us. Yes, they absolutely do. They'll say, all right, we're going to need you to be kind of on call for this manager for a while. Sit them down. Every time you're in the office and ask them what they're struggling with. When I first went into one client's organization, there was a manager there that was absolutely so thirsty. She was just dying for HR, which made me feel so good because most people do not think of it that way.

I'm so excited you're here.

Rarely do we hear that. Rarely. And she absolutely— I was at their office at least once a week and She would come in at least, I don't know, half hour, hour every week I was there. And she had her list of questions ready and we talked through them and we went through all the scenarios that she'd encountered with her employees. She is now one of the strongest people managers that they have in that organization. And I'm so proud of that.

She's—

she just— she makes me smile every time I see her. She's my golden child. But, you know, Mentoring.

Yeah.

Coaching. Find somebody to help that person. Find somebody that they can talk to. Somebody that you respect. Yes. Somebody that you—

not you, the business leader.

No, no. Someone else. Because you can say to somebody, get out of my office, and they're not really going to think a whole lot of it.

Yeah.

Your manager can't do that. So it's got to be somebody that you think does a good job as a manager. Or somebody that you feel has the expertise to mentor and coach your new managers. They need to have somebody that they can call on. If possible, find a basic kind of a boot camp program, at least something that teaches basic employment law so that when they hear, I fell and broke my foot and I can't get to the bathroom now, they know that's a problem. Your manager, it rings a bell. Now, they don't have to know what to do about it. They just need to know they need to call HR. They need to alert somebody that they've got an employee with an issue. But things that, that they hear that they say, ooh, I'm not touching that, I need to call somebody in. Yeah, they need that basic, very basic knowledge at minimum to be able to do their jobs properly and protect your organization, like you said, from lawsuits, from, from EEOC complaints. From Department of Labor complaints. Very, very important that they get that basic knowledge and coaching and mentoring can only go so far. Some of it is book-driven and by that I just mean tangible.

Yeah.

And some of it is going to be some soft skills training, but it's— I just think of it as boot camp. All right. You're going into a new role. This is a whole different world. Buckle up. Buckle up.

Buttercup.

Buttercup. Yes. It's going to be a ride. And here we go. But they need it. They need that help. Yeah, they do. Because otherwise an employee has a meltdown and they're just sitting there looking like a deer in the headlights and they have no idea what to do. And it's not fair to put people in that position.

Yeah. So something I've heard in the past, and it's not often, but occasionally I will hear when someone is talking about training and development of their people, they're like, well, I— what if I train them and they leave? They have this fear around if I empower them and teach them how to be good at their job or good in leadership, then it automatically means they're going to leave them. How— because I know you've had to answer this question for people, we've had to deal with this with clients— how do you have that conversation with the business leader around why it is so important to develop your managers?

Well, the first thing I say is they're going to leave if you don't. So do you want to guarantee they're leaving or do you want to minimize the risk and build a stronger management force in your team? Yeah. Where do you want to go with this? It's your choice. Now, if they're training something tangible, like in our world, we— all of our consultants are required to have HRCI certification.

Yeah.

So if we're going to sponsor that for an employee, they have a training agreement that they sign, they enter into. And that ties them to the organization for a certain amount of time. And we can certainly help you put together a program like that if you're doing specific certifications or things that have a tangible dollar value. If it's soft skills or if it's just kind of a basic professional development training program, career pathing, what you really need to do is you need to have a formalized program of some sort that the employees see the value. They see you investing in them. Right. It all comes down to you're providing them with respect. You're respecting them. You're showing them that you care. You're showing them that you have faith in them. You're willing to invest in them. And by doing that, they remain loyal.

Yeah. You, you—

if they leave, are they going to get that somewhere else? Are they going to have somebody that's willing to invest in them, that's willing to take them from a production line position to a shift supervisor, to a plant manager, to a vice president of operations over the course of their career? Are they going to see that path anywhere else, or are they just going to go back to being on the line because— because, yeah, because they don't have any hope here, so they might as well go there. If you show people a direction, if you show them room for growth and there, there are different kinds of employees, there are your ACEs and those are the people that that's what they want. Yes. Then you have your Bs. I personally love Bs. I love As and Bs, and I love a good mix of As and Bs, because if you have all As, they'll kill each other. Yes. It's ugly. It's not pretty.

It's not a fun environment.

But if you have your As, you've identified them and you show them a path to success, generally speaking, they will remain loyal to you.

Yeah.

Sometimes, you know, every once in a while it's going to— it's not— they won't. And that's the cost of doing business. Yeah, it just is.

So be brave and be willing to train.

Yes. Grow your people, grow your company.

So one of the reasons I wanted to have this conversation today is because we have seen this issue come up so often with our clients that we decided to do something about it. You know, as you were talking about, there's no training out there that does this.

Yeah, I stuck my foot in it, didn't I?

You did. You absolutely did. Because Clarity is working on launching a new manager boot camp designed specifically for those leaders who've recently been promoted or are preparing to step into management roles. So you want to talk a little bit more about what this program is designed to help those individuals learn?

Exactly what I've talked about today. Absolutely exactly. Starting out with the basics, the very tangible things, that would be the first hour or two, moving on into conflict avoidance, conflict resolution, How not to be a micromanager, how to delegate, what that means for you. Just so, so we're going to go from tangible in the first modules through, through kind of the legacy, through performance management, through how do I even conduct a PIP meeting, a performance improvement plan? Yes. How do I do a disciplinary action meeting? How do I do a termination meeting? People that— and I, I do the terminations and we'll do role play when we do the boot camp. When I do terminations, I always have the hiring manager in the room and it sometimes it's 2 or 3 or 4 terminations, but then all of a sudden I'll say, all right, do you need me to drive over to be with you for this? Nope, I got it. I got it.

Such a great feeling when you hear that.

Good job. So you build confidence through experience. So I envision it to be an interactive program when we can do it in person. Yeah, but I also envision an on-demand version that will be videos. And I'm sure that we will, you know, we will record some role-playing to give, to give people some feel for how do I handle it? Because inevitably the one that you think is going to blow doesn't. Yeah, they say okay and turn around, walk out of the room. And the one that you think is going to be easy is the one that all of a sudden is just a disaster. Where did this come from? So I mean, I have been in termination meetings that were blowups. I've been in termination meetings that the person thanked me. It just— you don't know what to expect and there's no point in staying up all night worrying about it. But we're going to help you through that.

Yeah.

So those are some of the major challenges. So we'll take you— the training will actually start with the basics and then go through the employee lifecycle. What do we do for recruiting? What do we say in interviews? What don't we say in interviews? How do we— what do we base our offers on? What do— what are we looking for in a candidate? How do we frame a job description and then move on to performance management, PIPs? And disciplinary actions and then separations. How do I accept a resignation? What do I say? What if it's somebody I love? What if it's somebody I can't lose? What, what do I do?

Yeah.

To, oh my gosh, I got to let this person go. Yeah. So I see us moving through the employee life cycle after we cover basics as a boot camp.

It's so exciting. So as that product comes out, we'll be sure to link everything in the show notes and continue to, to communicate with our listeners. But our last question we always end with, and since again you're a repeat guest, you know what it is already: what can a business owner do to get 1% better in their business today?

Don't hang your best people out to dry. Please don't do it. You're taking your very best performers and you're putting them in a situation that inevitably they are going to fail or they're going to burn out. One of the two things is going to happen. Set them up for success. Always set up your employees for success. But in this particular situation, find them a coach, find them a mentor, find them somebody that they can call, whatever you need to do to make sure that they have help, that they're not feeling like they're left alone, that, you know, and they don't want to let you down.

Yeah.

So they're not going to come to you and say, This is a disaster. Yeah, I'm failing. I'm flailing like a fish out of water. I don't know what to do with this. They're not going to come to you. No, they're going to burn out and they're going to leave. So you need to provide them with support. You need to provide them with some basic training. You need to help them be successful and they'll be an even better employee than you could have imagined. So take, take something that I've seen happen way too many times as a failure and turn it into a complete success. And it's not that hard.

No. Julie, thank you for your time today.

Thank you. I appreciate being here.

Yes, and I'll be back to wrap up. I want to take a moment to reflect on a few things I heard from Julie today. First, being great at your job doesn't automatically make you a great leader. Leadership requires a completely different set of skills, skills that most people are never formally taught. Second, when companies promote employees without giving them the tools to lead, they're often setting those employees up to struggle, and that struggle doesn't just affect the manager, it affects the entire team. Third, leadership development doesn't have to be complicated, but it does have to be intentional. When businesses invest in training their managers, they build stronger teams, better communication, and a healthier workplace. And finally, one of the most powerful things business owners can do is equip their leaders before problems start. So if you're listening and you have managers on your team or employees you hope to promote someday, it may be time to think about how you're preparing them to lead. So you can learn more about Clarity HR's new manager boot camp and our HR support services at clarityhr.com. And until next time, let's keep getting 1% better in our businesses.