In this interview, Dr. CJ Meadows explains the design‑thinking immersion he runs with MBA candidates, which begins with an IDEO‑created simulation game that gives participants hands‑on experience with human‑centered innovation tools. He emphasizes starting with people’s needs, desires, technological feasibility, and viable business models. Meadows illustrates the power of this approach with two stories: (1) the “Elmo Calls” app, born from Sesame Street’s collaboration with IDEO after they discovered parents’ bedtime struggles, which quickly amassed millions of calls and topped the App Store for ages 0‑5; and (2) a Mumbai student project where MBAs, after field‑research with informal workers, shifted their focus from “jobs” to “work” that respects workers’ constraints and aspirations. The conversation also touches on the risk of overly need‑driven design potentially limiting breakthrough, product‑driven innovation exemplified by Steve Jobs, and the broader value companies gain from design‑thinking practices.
So we've talked about lateral innovation and lateral thinking. Can you tell me a bit more about design thinking, which I believe you're also quite savvy with?
Oh yeah, this is our design thinking immersion that we do with our MBA candidates. And so what we start off with a simulation game created by IDEO and Experience Point so that people experientially learn the methodology from IDEO and get, get hands-on experience with the tools and techniques in a case-type setting. And so what I find works best is when the teams choose a social enterprise type project and go out and do it and come back into the workshop where I'm coaching the teams and we've got exercises and tools to help them create something together. I, I particularly like the IDEO methodology because it starts off with what challenge you want to be working on and then goes through problem definition. But design thinking itself is a human-centered approach to innovation that integrates what people need and want with what's technologically feasible and what's a viable business strategy for delivering the solution to people. But you start with what what they want. And there's terrific research out there showing huge value that companies get out of design thinking efforts because it starts by going out where people live and work and observing what they do and finding out what they need.
Can you tell us a bit more about one of the stories, for example, that you mentioned?
Oh yeah! Well, one of my favorite stories is Elmo Calls. So Sesame Street went to IDEO and said, "Hey, everybody's got an app. Can you make us an app? You design cool stuff. We want an app." And the IDEO guys were like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, slow down. An app is not a problem. It's not a need or desire. It's—" What? "A solution." Okay, so look, we need to find out for whatever we're designing what's the need that people are having, what's the desire. An app might be something we make, but we're not going to give I guarantee it. So where would you go to find out the needs and desires of parents with little children? Well, they went to their homes, you know, and they observed people and they asked questions and they found, you know, what's hard about the day with a little kid? Well, they don't want to go to bed, okay? And they don't want to go take the bath before they go to bed and they don't want to brush their teeth. So they went out and they found all the pain points of your day with a little kid, and they designed from that. So they came up with the Elmo Calls app— yes, it's an app— whereby you can set a timer and Elmo will call your child on the phone and say, "Hi, Sarah! It's time for bed now. We need to go take a bath. Here's how we do that. Here's how you brush your teeth, etc., etc., etc." So I gave this to my daughter Sarah Elmo calls, "Bye, Mom, I'm going to bed." Like, thanks. How did it go? Well, within a month, Elmo made 4 million calls. Less than a year, 20 million calls. It became the most popular app for age 0 to 5 on the App Store. It was so successful because it solved a real need. Now, that reminds me of a case from some of my students. I was teaching design thinking to our students in Mumbai, and one of the groups said, "You know, there are people out there on the street with no education, no job, no real way to get one, and we'd like to help them." I said, "Yes! Worthy goal, great challenge." So, step 1, go spend some time with those folks on the street, no education, no job. And they told people what they wanted to do, make some sort of solution so they'll get jobs. And people looked at them and said, "Why would I want a job?" Okay, these are MBAs. You enter a program, you pay money for the program, you have your student loans, what do you want at the end? There's only one thing you want, a job. So they hadn't looked beyond their own perspective, but when they went out with people, they listened to what they do want, and they discovered they don't want jobs, but they do want work. And that's different. Some had— didn't want to be under the thumb of a boss. Some of them couldn't commit to their hours, they had to take care of family. Or some had health problems, for whatever reason, the challenge shifted to helping people get work, and work for which they would be fairly recognized and paid, and which would facilitate work.
As positive as it is, and anthropological really, to solve existing problems, it might also stifle innovation to take that approach, in the sense of avoiding the Steve Jobs approach, giving you something that you didn't know you needed.
Mm, but you see, there's a very critical difference between the solution and the need. Um, let's take Facebook for an example, okay? When you're in a fire, what are you gonna take with you? Well, most people take their photo album, and most people spend a lot of time sharing their photos, and they store their photos. The photos are very, very important to them. So the basic desire to capture images and share them is something that doesn't change. But the way you do that can be radically new and so much easier. As a matter of fact, this comes back to Clay Christensen's disruptive strategy stuff, the job to be done. The products and services will change and technology will drive radical changes in that, but the basic job to be done, the thing that someone needs and wants, Our needs and wants don't change very much, and if you root your business in the job to be done, you will have a stable growing business even when, like Netflix, which originally was sending out the DVDs through the, the mail but then went to streaming, you'll change the solution, but the need itself doesn't change. People want to watch a movie, they want to spend time together having a shared experience.
