UN Mission Director On What Real Calm Under Fire Looks Like With Fredrik Sandvall

A team leader froze. Two people behind him did not make it out. That happened earlier this year in Pakistan during a live United Nations operations. Today's guest was on the radio talking him through it. This specific episode today is about the exact moment brain decides to freeze, fight, flee, or please. And why the leaders who understand that moment are the ones who keep their people alive in a war zone or in a boardroom. Welcome to the NeuroLeadership Edge, the podcast for leaders who want to think clearly when everything around them is on fire. I'm Claire Hayek, a neuroleadership expert, TEDx speaker, and founder of Mind Soul Purpose team building. But before we get into it, if you're not already following the show, this is your reminder. It's the single biggest thing that determines whether this conversation reaches the next leader who needs it. So, make sure to hit that follow button. You will hear today what actually happens in the brain in the second before someone freezes. You will hear why calm has to be real because people can feel the difference. And you will also hear what a life and death decision has in common with a multi-billion dollar deal. My guest today has lived under more real pressure than almost anyone I have had on this show. He spent his first 10 years in Special Forces Then moved into intelligence operations. Today, he is director of strategic operations for United Nations military operations in a high-friction region between India and Pakistan, while also running mergers and acquisitions work and hosting his own podcast for global founders and investors called Invest in You. Please welcome Frederick Sandwell. How are you, Fred?

Great to see you again, Claire. Thanks for having me on your podcast.

Yes. Well, great to have you. I don't have every day a guest like you. I got to say, I don't want to compare, but it is pretty special in so many different ways. I think we do have definitely a treat today. How many people do you know? I mean, you're the only person I know in my whole network, and it's a big one, I'll tell you. That has that experience. It's tremendous and it's amazing as far as what you can teach us today. And I hope our listeners are as excited as I am. And if you're not and you're not really paying attention, I really encourage you to stop and pay attention. This one is going to be very insightful. So not to put any pressure on you, Fredrik.

Thank you.

Again, welcome to the show. And before we get into Anything heavy. I just want to kind of go through your career. You went from Special Forces into intelligence into the UN, and now you're also doing M&A work. Of course, there's also the podcast. So how does someone end up living in that many high-pressure worlds at once?

Main reason is I'm really curious. That's also one reason why I have been to so many countries, because I like to learn all the time. I threw myself into big problems, and the bigger problems, usually the bigger The risk, but also usually the reward, which has been working both in terms of business as well as you highlighted my military career, uh, as well as diplomatic. Uh, I'm an international problem solver and that is basically take me from the middle of nowhere in Sweden to more than 100 countries so far. Wow.

But how, how did you end up doing this? I mean, how does somebody decide? Let's dive a little deeper, deeper.

Absolutely.

What was that thing? I'm assuming. This something drawn you into this? Like, how did, how does that happen? I'm stupid.

So number one, you probably have got many people on the podcast who are actually parents, and to be a parent is a very important thing, more important than any jobs at all. And I try to instill into my 2 sons that if you're gonna do it, you can as well do it well. So that means that if you're gonna do, like for example, in Sweden, the, the conscript service, and you've got to certain amount of time you're gonna put into it, why not do it the best you can? So that brought me through a special selection into a very specialized unit. And then same thing there, like step 2, like since you're gonna be there, do the best you can. And I was one of the best in, in, in that year, which led to a, an officer's career and, uh, being selected to many special things throughout my whole, uh, military career. And also being curious and thinking ahead. Using the time to get multiple business degrees, studied law, medicine, and many other things while I was working full-time and also having businesses. So it means that I've been taking the Pareto efficiency in a different interpretation. This is more very important for many of you out there. So normally when you're doing a task, you try to do it to, oh, I'm going to do it to 110%. Well, if you reduce your level of intensity To 80%, that's still a distinction in school and in the workplace. And that means I can do 5 things at the same time. That's basically how I've done so many things.

Uh, so, but, but let's, let's pause there for a second. So yes, absolutely. I can totally relate with that. I mean, I'm not gonna give you the list of all the stuff that I've done and still do. I literally have to stop myself and focus. I'm a bit more aligned and focused now than I used to be, but it was all good because I was able, I had that capability. My brain had that capacity to deal with this. But in your situation, in your specific story and experience, it's not only multiple things. It's high-stakes, intense things. Like, how do you train your brain? Is this something you're born with? Did you train this? Did this kind of develop that ability to be able to manage situations of high pressure? You obviously have that talent and that skill. And I believe personally that it's skill that can be trained. And I'm, I guess, curious to know, how did you train?

Yeah, I mean, I, I was the, the oldest, uh, son out of 4. So we, that gave me a lot of responsibility really early. So I always throw myself into the deep end, whatever it is, and always raising the hand for volunteering, which meant that you get way more experience than the peers in the same group. And also become like a leader out of leaders. That's also a very distinct— distinguished, uh, honor as well. And the more you do of this and the more you throw yourself into really challenging situations, you move your comfort zone. And that's very much linked to what you're talking about, like the brain, what's not to accept and not. And that is relating to pain, Physical, mental, and everything. And that's basically how I've been training myself by exposing and moving the boundaries, uh, to, to silly levels many times. And that's how I can do it. And the keyword you already mentioned is focus. So right now the focus is on you and on the audience to, to deliver valuable input. And that means I put everything else on hold. So that's one way I also manage to do too many things at any, any given time.

High stakes, too many things of high stakes at the same time. And I couldn't agree more. And I think also that presence, you know, being present in the moment. And we can call it focus and align, but it is just one thing at a time and be fully here, present. So, you know, what you're describing is also someone that, in my opinion, whose brain got trained early to treat those high-stakes environments.

Yes.

And be able to deal with these conditions, not be used to it, but be more present with it and know what's at stake and still walk through it. As opposed to just kind of tune it down. It's like, oh no, no, this is just noise. No, no, no, no. You are living it. But you can walk through it. And it's a trainable skill. And that's basically— I know I talked about this on your show, on your podcast.

Yes.

You know, talk about pressure-proof leadership. It's a skill you develop. So let's keep going here. So you told me this, and obviously this whole episode intro was based on it. Not long ago, I think earlier this year, yes, you're on the radio during operation talking a team leader through a moment where I think his team came under attack. I mean, this is real.

That's right.

Things here. people listening. I mean, this is not a drill or anything. This was actually happening. Without going into too much detail that you can't share, and I understand that, of course, can you tell our listeners what happened in that moment and what you saw in that person?

So in, in this specific case, uh, there, there was an attack on one of the facilities that I was responsible for, and I was also responsible for all the military personnel in this location. And, uh, I had contact with this person just a few minutes earlier, and all of a sudden he called me back again and said like, they are inside. And that meant that they, they had already breached the perimeter with armed guards and they were already inside. And this was in, in just a few minutes' time between everything is calm and peaceful until they are literally under fire without being under fire from weapons. Uh, so they had like perpetrators inside the base, and, and that's basically why this, this whole intense conversation and, uh, attempt to help him, to guide him to do the right things under extreme duress. So yeah, that's basically the, the context.

What, what do you think was happening, um, in him in that moment?

I think He was very much in shock because basically from nothing to under extreme stress, that puts any, any of us under immense pressure. And also that you literally fear for your life because, you know, this is real and they're inside. That means they're already inside, means that they passed the armed guards. How did that happen? What should I do? And also worth mentioning that with United Nations in the role that he had and I had, we were unarmed, which meant our weapon is our mind, uh, and our wit and our kindness, not a gun. And that makes things even more extreme that, that even if you can, for example, myself, I, I know how to defend myself. That is not why I'm there. At the same time, right, how do you deal with people literally attacking? your, your stuff. So that's, that's basically where we are. Uh, while we also have armed guards on, on duty, he was not armed, nor was many of the people in his team as well, because again, peace, uh, keeping people. So not peace enforcement by military means, but peacekeeping, which meant that unarmed and still under attack for different reasons.

And I think if I remember correctly, that person froze.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So we, we spoke about this briefly. So without pointing any kind of finger, so yeah, he very much froze in this context. So me and a close colleague, we took turns to try to help him, to listen to him, to guide him to get out of the very dangerous situation. And, and luckily, people were also helping him and other members of that team. But ultimately, on this occasion, 2 people paid the ultimate price, which is Something that is very hard to imagine. We see it in movies all the time. Yeah. But when it's real and when it's people you know, and, uh, I helped these people to get to this area just 2 months ahead. I was literally in the same location.

Wow.

And helping them. They were so excited to be there because it's a beautiful place. And then that was the last time I saw them. And, uh, and that was the end of, of those 2 who, who were Let the righteous speak in the flames.

You know, I mean, actually, obviously, this is— we're not trying to criticize or judge the situation here or analyze it in any way. This is not about that at all. It's just, I guess, the point I want to make, and it's a very unfortunate story, and thank you so much for sharing this with us. The reason why I wanted to bring this up is that I want people to understand that, you know, under pressure, the brain will do— will either fight or flight or freeze or, or please or fawn, you know. And freeze is the one people understand the least because it looks like nothing is happening for them. They're like, what do you mean freeze? I don't freeze. We do. It's literally that the brain's decided that no action is safer Than the wrong action.

Yep.

And literally locks the body down. It is exactly a survival.

Yep. Yeah. The, the, the body, literally the, the brain freezes the body to save the body.

Exactly.

Which of course can be very counterproductive. You find yourself in a burning house and you need to get out and how then to unfreeze to get back to the next logical thing, which is flight. Like you already mentioned.

Exactly. I mean, if we look at it in a business setting, you know, in a meeting, it looks like this freeze pattern would look like a leader who cannot make the call. And in your field, it costs lives. Either way, it is the same circuit, but different situations. But in a business setting, it could cost millions of dollars because the time that you need to make a decision, or even if you pause, I'm not talking about freezing. I'm talking about pausing, reflecting, taking a minute, gathering your thoughts, realign, focus, get rid of the noise, and make a clear decision. That is not freezing and that is not delaying. That is the right thing to do. But if you just cannot say anything and we're just going around the subject while a decision has to be made to minimize the effect of whatever that decision will do in a business setting, that could be so costly. And this is why you need to train that skill. It's a trainable skill. How do you snap out of your survival brain or survival pressure pattern back into your strategic brain, literally to save your life physically or in a situation, a business setting, save you and save the room out of the situation in a productive way? Right.

And what can you do to preempt as much as possible? Because even if you're a leader for a company and someone has a major accident, Many, many times it is your responsibility. So what can you do to preempt for these terrible things to happen? How can you train your team to, for example, evacuate a building if there's like an earthquake or a fire or anything like that?

Mm-hmm.

So many things you and your team can actually get better doing together before the, it gets bad. Uh, and that's one thing how you also can get, uh, mentally tough by doing these drills and also have some kind of like feedback loops. You can learn together from each other's mistakes and what you did well.

Absolutely. This is, like I said, it's a trainable skill. And if you've ever felt— anybody listening, if you've ever felt yourself lock up in a moment that really is important, that mattered, a meeting, a negotiation, a hard conversation, it costs you something. Like I mentioned earlier, I just want to bring this up right here because I think it's a good moment. I built 7 short reset scripts. For exactly that moment, and they are free. You can head to clairehayek.com/reset and grab them. They're for you. They're free. I hope it serves you. And it also gives you a tool that you can come up with your own reset script because you know yourself best. So you can come up with your own actions or resets that work for you and your situation. Hope hopefully that helps you. So go ahead and scan that code. Now let's let's keep going.

Yes.

You told me something that really— that I didn't forget. It's pretty interesting. You said calm has to be real. You are preaching to the choir here, but I do want to mention it. And you said it has to be real because people can feel it even when someone looks composed. Can you unpack this for the audience?

Yes, I will do my best. So in this case, We got a very strong gut feeling. So all the cues that we get, uh, everything from the body language to, to small micro movements in the face, to, to just how they sound, the tonality helps us complete the pictures. Not only the words, but how you say whatever you say. So if you don't trust yourself, your people will not trust you either. So to be authentic and already have built up a foundation of trust in the daily work. So people actually do trust you as a leader or manager or as a colleague. And that, that is, uh, really key so that you can have the foundation and then trust yourself in the tough situation as well. And the same thing here, welcome feedback.

Yeah.

That means that you, you can actually grow. And also something you might have covered on other episodes, for example, there's also a blind spot, things you don't see about yourself that you cannot see for yourself without getting someone else to point out, like Fredrik. Did you know that when you do ABC, you don't come across as genuine or whatever it might be? So all of those things, uh, yeah, build you up to the person you'd like to be. Yeah.

And I mean, what you're describing is our mirror neurons. Yes. You know, people do not hear your words under pressure. The nervous system is reading your nervous system. In real time. And this is because of the mirror neurons. And so, and they react to it. They don't understand. They don't probably know that it's happening. But it is. It is. It's a very powerful thing that we totally underestimate and don't even talk about. So, a leader who actually stays calm but is internally just boiling, that's gonna seep through. People are gonna see through that.

Yeah, and so do I.

And so, this is why it's a skill you have to literally train. It's not— you cannot pretend And it's very, very interesting because that's exactly what I talk about in my book, The Leadership Skill Nobody Taught You. It's literally calm under fire, but real calm. And I address this in the book, the definition of calm.

And at the same time, we observe so many things that we don't think about, but the more in tune you are with yourself and people around you, you start to see that actually She's mimicking indirectly without thinking about it, like how fast I breathe. And, and then many small things like that. You can make the room stressed or calm just by being there without saying nothing. And we, we are synchronizing ourselves to each other even without communicating in a really cool way. Uh, in many ways that I can't explain myself, but I've, I've, I've seen it in practice and preach it.

Oh, it's, it's real. It's real. I mean, you know, look it up. Anybody listening to this, look up mirror neurons.

Interesting.

It's not— this is not mystical or anything like that. It's science. I strongly encourage you to. It might explain a couple of things and maybe the way sometimes you reacted or felt something off and you're like, I don't know, but something's off. Well, mirror neurons, they're— the person is transmitting and you are receiving. So it's a real thing. Now, Fredrik, you move between multi-billion-dollar deal rooms and literally through combat zones. Is there anything, in your opinion, that a high-stakes negotiation and a life-or-death field, I guess, decision actually have in common?

Yeah, the crazy thing, it's in all simplicity, we are all humans. We're all people in the end of the day. And that means that if you are really stressed because you're going to meet someone who you perceive to be really, really senior to you, well, if you change your own frame, For example, I'm gonna meet him. He's the same age as my dad. Am I afraid of my dad? Well, hopefully not. Uh, and that means that you can try to meet people on, on more similar level than to put anyone in your relationship or at work or in a client meeting. If you put them on a pedestal, it will feel so strange. Try to meet them on the same level so you're not above, you're not beneath. But you are more similar level. That means that the interaction will become much more comfortable for everyone. And so that's one of the things we are, we are people, and that is regardless the stake of, uh, whatever you're gonna talk about.

Hmm. I couldn't agree more. Now we're, it's time for a rapid fire. So sure. One word or one sentence, whatever comes first. All right, here's the first one. One thing you always do before walking into a high-pressure or high-stakes situation?

Breathe.

The moment you knew this work had changed how your brain operates?

Sorry again, please?

The moment you realized that the work you do had changed how your brain operates?

Yeah, relief, I would say. And things fall in place.

All right. One thing leaders get wrong, in your opinion, about staying calm under pressure?

It's a solo act. And it's not.

It's not. And we did talk about this a bit earlier. Definitely. That's— I think I could definitely vote on that one. Just a little side note here, everyone. My book is out now. It's Called The Leadership Skill Nobody Taught You: Calm Under Fire in the Age of Disruption. How appropriate with this conversation. If what we talked about today with Fredrik hit home, this is exactly what the book was built for. Literally, this skill that you can train. And maybe you probably didn't realize that it's a skill, but it is. You'll learn more in the book. Scan the QR code for more info or check the description for access links. And before we wrap up, Fredrik, any last words or any— thing you want to share, how people can maybe get to your podcast or connect with you. And obviously we'll also share your links in the description.

Thank you. Yeah, the best place to connect and reach out to me is via LinkedIn, Fredrik Sandwall. You got it in the show notes. And also I like to say that by the time you hear this, I'm 100% back to business, which means I'm happy to help you with your business problems all over the world. I focus specifically about leaders who like to prepare for or exit their organization. And same thing there, it's not only joyful to sell your baby, and sometimes you need to have some help with the thinking around that. So yeah, happy to help out.

All right, thanks so much, Fredrik. As you heard him say, we will leave the links for you in the description so you can connect with Fredrik. And check out the work, the great work he's doing. A little reminder, if you haven't followed the show, hit that follow button. And don't forget to subscribe. Share this episode if it serves or helps anybody. Do share it. And as always, lead boldly, stay human, and let every challenge sharpen your edge. We will see you all next week. And thanks so much, Fredrik. Don't be a stranger. Would love to have you back.