Your Identity As A Hooper, Science Based Training Approach, and more with Tyler Clark (@tc.performance)

Foreign. Welcome to the Vision Driven Basketball Training Podcast. Appreciate you guys for tuning in. Apple podcast, Spotify, where Russell, you're listening from. And of course, everybody who's watching on YouTube. I appreciate you guys. You'll see if you're on YouTube. Right now, I've got a guest with me, my guy, Tyler Clark, who runs TC Performance, a mix of the sports performance side, but also the basketball skills training side. And those are like the type of guys I love talking to, because basketball, it's all movement. And being able to train both the movement when it comes to basketball specifically, but also the athletic performance side, I think is a really interesting blend. And from the guys that I've talked to who I really respect, like, that's kind of how they see this place, this field going is like, as you want to continue to level yourself up as a basketball trainer, you also have to understand the movement side of it as well. So I always love talking to guys who are living that life and who get that from Maine. But, you know, I'll let. I'll let him kind of have the floor right here to kind of give a little bit more of an intro. So, tc, man, welcome to the pod. I appreciate you being on today.

What's going on, man? I appreciate you having me, like, two weeks ago, got you on the podcast as well. So that was cool. Yeah, so I'm. I'm TC Tyler Clark. I. Not necessarily a business quite yet, but TC Performance is. Is kind of how a lot of people know me, but I was a player myself. Decided to take a different route about two and a half years ago now. So my junior year of college, decided to step away from basketball, and that's when I took training on is basically everything. Took that full head of steam, started researching everything as much as I could, taking that as seriously as possible. And that took me to basically interning as a strength and conditioning coach, interning as a performance and skill development coach. Meeting a lot of really cool people like yourself. I know you've had, like, Danny Cooper on, Danny Metzer, guys like Coleman Ayers, Tyler Leclaire, Yurik Michaels. Like, meeting a lot of. A lot of really cool, important individuals in this industry. And it's definitely helped me grow into the. To be the trainer that I am today. Like you said, I am a mesh of both skills on court development as well as the weight room kind of performance side of things. I think that there's absolutely a time and place for both of those things. And I think that, like you said, that is kind of the future of things. Do I think every single trainer out there needs to be a mesh of both? No, but I think that you can. You can get a lot from learning a little bit of both sides. Like, if you're. If you're a skill development coach and you know a little bit about the performance side of things, I think it'll help. And I think vice versa, if you're a performance coach, you know, we can get into the nitty gritty of that. But if you're a D3 strength and conditioning coach and you deal with every single sport team there is on campus, it might be a little bit more difficult to understand the skill development of those sports. But if you're in a position where you're able to be the performance coach for one team, say basketball, football, soccer, whatever it is, understanding the. The skill development side of those things helps you more. So as a performance coach, gear them, you know, understand what they need more so on the court and develop that in the weight room. And just to kind of update everything about my story right now, I'm currently the skill, the player development coach and the strength and conditioning coach for Southern Maine Community College. That's where I played as well. So I'm in a unique position where I do take care of the strength and conditioning as well as the player development. So I can talk about that later. But that's definitely had its perks for me as well.

Yeah, no, I love that you touched on that kind of that mesh of the skills in the athletic performance side. And I think that just having an understanding, especially when it comes to stuff like, like ball handling, right? And how a lot of times, like, people think that it's surface level, like, oh, if you're not a great ball handler, it's because, you know, it's what your hands are doing that's not good enough. And a lot of times it's not even that. A lot of times it's the movements. Like, this player doesn't want to go left because they're not comfortable stopping, going towards their left. They want to go right because they are really comfortable stopping, decelerating, going right. But now it's like, okay, how do we train that quality of helping them become comfortable decelerating going left? And now when they have that and they feel safe doing that, now they all of a sudden are going to go left. So you look at it, it's like, oh, that's a, you know, a skills training thing, but really it's a movement thing. But having that understanding of those sorts of qualities, I Think is something that will help every trainer. And again, even like you said, it doesn't mean that you have to, you know, know everything about every sort of movement, every sort of exercise. Like it doesn't have to be like that, but just having that understanding that it's not always surface level. And when you understand some of those qualities that matter and you can kind of pinpoint that, I think it helps to allow, it allows you to help players a lot more than if you just look at it as like skills only. And you know, there's no movement involved.

You know, movement is a skill in itself. So that's kind of universal whenever it comes to skill development or off court weight room performance. You know what I mean? So in general, we're teaching skill, we're teaching these athletes skill. And whether that's in the weight room without a ball or even on the court without a ball, like, like you said, ball handling isn't necessarily about, you know, waist up. It's actually more about ways down. It's, it's, it's what's happening below the waist, how do you move, how do you decelerate, how do you cut, how do you change directions? What is your agility like? Like, do you, do you, do you have the requisite deceleration and acceleration? Do you have the requisite balance strength, all these things to, to be a good enough mover and then apply that to the court and be a good enough ball handler.

Right.

So it's like you're, you're teaching all these things as a skill and we need to teach our athletes how to self organize and motor learning is huge, whether it's on court skill development or weight room as well.

Yeah, yeah, no, that's awesome. So I wanted to touch a little bit on kind of your training approach, you know, that kind of the games based approach where there's the understanding of okay, what, what actually goes into helping a player acquire these skills, Skill acquisition, how do, how do we help players be in a position to actually learn? So kind of go into how you approach things and, and kind of your overall view of basketball training in general.

Yeah. So I think, well, to start like we all start in like a bad spot, quote unquote bad spot. Right. Whenever we train ourselves or first start off, we're kind of like just follow the status quo. The traditional, let's just get reps up, let's just do moves on air. And I did that for a little while for myself and for my friends and whatnot, my teammates. But the more and more I started to dive into the research. It just, the research just didn't add up there. So the games based approach is obviously as it sounds like, you play a lot of games, you play a lot of live and a lot of that has to do with the transfer to game, right? So the context that a game based approach brings to a session is everything. So if you can add context into your sessions already, the, the, the rate of transfer is going to be way higher to the game, right? So if you have a player that's super timid or I, I won't even say that if you have a player that's super good in practice, just killing practice, chances are they're probably actually not going to be that great in the game. And I know you know a lot of that research and I'm sure some of your listeners have heard you talk about that, but it's, it's more so if you get really good practice reps and everything's perfect and you're getting reps up and against, no defense at all, no bodies, anything, you just don't have the context. You just can't apply that to an actual live setting. So whenever you get into the game is, you can't apply it because you're so used to doing it on air. So the games based approach is really good. You can do things like small side of games if you don't have anybody there, a random, like random shooting, a random approach, so it's not so blocked. Um, it's just you give your, you give your body variability and you give your mind different solutions which you need because on the court you don't, you don't have one solution, right? Like it's not one true fits all. So you need a variety, you need, you need a memory bank, you need a bank of a bunch of different solutions. And that's why a games based approach, you get repetition without repetition. So every single rep, every single drill, every single time you, you line back up and, and do a finishing drill, a shooting drill, it's going to be you're getting the same outcome. Yes, you're, you're making a jump shot, you're taking a jump shot, but you're getting to that same outcome or solution differently every single time. So it's a one jewel pull up, but you have somebody running at you from the opposite elbow. If you're on the opposite wing or however you set up a drill, that person may come at you faster, come at you slower, maybe juke you out, whatever. You have to think about it every single Time. And whenever you're using your brain for these sessions, for these drills, for these reps, it's just constant feedback to your brain. And then you can self organize and in an actual live setting, an actual live competition or a game, then you can apply what you learn. You can self organize and think, okay, I didn't make that in a practice session or in that drill, whatever. But I know that I now have solutions and I have a, a bank of information in my brain so I can apply that to whichever situation I am. So I'm more equipped to now apply like basically take these and plug those into different areas, all these solutions. So it doesn't matter what you throw at me. I'm way more equipped than somebody who's just been on the gun for their entire life. You know what I mean? Just getting shots up or just layups, it's. I do, I don't, I do this a lot. I don't, I don't try to, you know, harp on block shooting. I do think there's a time and place for that. But in terms of actual betterment of your performance and getting better on court, random practice and a games based approach is going to, I mean, studies show that there's a higher transfer rate, like you're going to get better, you're going to get more results doing that kind of stuff. So the big thing is the self organization and being able to apply what you've learned. The solutions to different problems that you see in the game.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, man. It's all about like, I kind of view it as okay. It's not just that we're trying to get better at a skill. Okay. It's like, can I help you to become a professional problem solver? Right? So no matter what situation you may be in, there's something you can go back to to help you solve that problem. Because every single situation you're going to face is going to be a little bit different in some way. And actually this kind of touches on the next thing. Because one thing that really separates, you know, even this, even the same situation, but for two different players. But it could be, it could be the same player in a similar situation. But sometimes the affordances that that player is going to have is going to be a little bit different, right? Sometimes they might be going against someone the same height as them and then the next possession it's the same situation, but the person they're going against is 8 inches taller than them. And that's going to change how they kind of view things. Obviously if you have two different players, then we have those different affordances. And I know you just had a podcast talking about that, and I was actually thinking about that before I even listened to your podcast about talking about affordances, and I listened to yours, I was like, that's awesome. We definitely need to talk about that. So for those people who don't know what affordances are, what are they and how do they kind of shape players and the decisions that they make?

Yeah. So definitely that episode, I thought I. I did a decent job portraying what an affordance is and how to kind of use that in a session. But an affordance is essentially an opportunity to act. So we're all afforded things as players, as people based on our stature, our age, our health, a bunch of different things, our skillset, our intentions. So basketball, we'll just keep it for basketball, Right. If, like, you, you and I could be very different players. I think you said you're a lot more catch and shoot, right?

Oh, yeah.

So catch and shoot. I'm a little bit more of a slasher. So you and I are going to have much different affordances, Right. If you, if you get a ball kicked out to you after it's been driven and you're wide open in the corner, you're going to shoot that every single time. Because that's what you see as an opportunity, right? You. That's your opportunity to act. That's your skill set. You're a shooter, so your skill set, you just feel comfortable. I'm. I'm popping that thing. That's your opportunity to act. If I was to get the ball kicked out to me into the corner, my skill set is more so a slasher, right? So I'm either going to take one dribble, pull up, or I'm taking two, three dribbles, right into three defenders. And I'm trying to lay it up because I don't. I just don't have the skill set of shooting that open three. I didn't. @ least I. I do now. But just for the, for the sake of this example, in high school, I wasn't like that at all. Right. So that was a big issue for me. I. Anytime a ball was kicked out to me, I. I would force it back into the, to the middle of the paint and try to lay it up, and I would ruin our, our offensive flow. So I wasn't afforded that. Like, that wasn't. I didn't see that as an opportunity to act. So whenever. Because I think the next question is kind of like how, how do we use those in our training sessions? Right. So if we identify that, right, you're a catch and shoot guy, but maybe you need to be a lot better off the dribble, even if it's not being a slasher and completely transforming you as a player. Well, we understand that you see shooting a catch and shoot three as an opportunity to act, but how do we get you to see another opportunity? How do we get you to see a two dribble mid range pull up as an opportunity to act or a floater or something like that. So that's when we can gear our, our environment like our training session and just the drills specifically geared towards you or whichever players, um, so we can work on those weaknesses, quote unquote weaknesses or just help you get better at seeing those opportunities. Right? So small set of games are a phenomenal tool for this reason. Specifically watch some film, dissect. Okay. All you do is shoot threes in the corner, right? At the college level, maybe that works for, for, for one year, your freshman year, but next year, like we know that you shoot three, so we're taking that away every single time. So how can we not be so one dimensional? Well, in the training sessions, let's gear it towards. All right, one kick out and I'm going to give you a read. If I put my hand up, you're going, you have to put a mid range up, right? Or if it's a small side of game, then the only way you can score is you have to score off of two dribbles. Or maybe you're incentivizing, you get two points for a one or two dribble pull up, right? So just figuring out ways to get you in the mindset to where you're thinking like I can only shoot a mid range. And then once you only give that as the solution, then you start to see that as an opportunity, right? And at first you're going to fail because you just have never done that, you've never seen that as an opportunity to act. But it's important because you're giving them the environment one to fail. And that's a whole other discussion obviously. But giving them that environment and creating the environment for them to see that as an opportunity to act, right? So defense is deliberately forcing them middle or forcing them baseline. Maybe they have to put up one or two dribbles and it has to be either a floater or a mid range. They, they just can't catch and shoot. So the more and more you drill that, the more and more you get Reps on reps on reps and create a small side of game and get repetition without repetition, add some live defense, some live reads, then it starts to become muscle memory. It starts to become just second nature at that point. So it's, it's important to identify affordances and it's, it's not really, I feel like, discussed in skills training because I don't know, I feel like research isn't really brought into traditional skills training. But I, it's, it's super important in my opinion.

Yeah. Yeah. And I also, I love how it ties into that game is based approach as well. Because if, let's say we're going through a small sided game where there's actual defense, you might have three players there, but they all might be a little bit different, size wise, athletically. So right there you actually get to see like, okay, what, what affordances are there for this certain player. So what are they going to go to most often? Whereas if you're just on air, you, you might have them all working on the same thing. But player A might be able to do that in a game because of whatever affordance they may have. Player B might have no chance of doing that almost ever. And then player B is going to get to the game and they're not going to have a solution for that. So I think affordances can kind of go back to what you were talking about earlier, which is like we have to have solutions and every player is going to have a different bank of solutions depending on what affordances they have and small set of games tying into that great way for us to be able to do that. And I also, I love what you said right there as well. You kind of briefly mentioned it, so I'll talk, you know, touch on it a little bit here. But creating an environment where failure happens and failure is okay. So I don't know what kind of experience you have where it comes to creating that sort of environment where it's like, hey, failure's gonna happen. And because a lot of players are so used to that traditional environment where it's all about avoiding failure, it's all about making things as perfect as possible. And you know, you and I both understand the fact that that's not, that's not the ideal environment for getting better. I just talked about that on my podcast last week where it's like, you know, the Goldilocks principle. You don't want to be in a position where it's way too hard, where you're failing, you know, every single time. But you Also don't want to be in a position where it's way too easy, where you're succeeding every single time. 90% of the time, you can find a way to be in the middle of that. That's where we're going to be able to expand that capacity a little bit. But you have to be able to help players realize that, like, this is a safe environment where failure is okay, failure is sometimes encouraged, and failure is actually necessary. So I don't know what kind of experience you have when it comes to creating an environment like that, but if you have anything with that. Touch on that here.

Yeah, I think that it depends on your situation as a coach. Obviously, if you're. If you were like a team coach and you're working with this team year round, it might be easier for you to create an environment that's conducive to those players. You know what I mean? Because whenever you came onto my, my, my show, like, you talked all about emotional intelligence. So a lot of that comes into play, right? Understanding the players that you have, the athletes that you have. Excuse me. You're going to create an environment that's conducive to them. Like some, some players can take, like, all right, I'm, I'm. I'm gonna hit one out of 10 shots in this drill and they're strong enough. They're like, mentally, quote, unquote, mentally tough enough to get past that and be like, it's fine, like, I'm gonna get better. Whereas another player may hate that and they may go home and cry, you know, like, so. So understanding your athletes obviously is. Comes first, but definitely in my experience, it comes down to talking to your athletes first and just understanding. Like, if you. So I don't know, there's a couple different ways you can do it, right? Like I said, if you're a team coach or if you're a trainer and you've had these, these athletes for a little while, it's. It's easier. But I feel like for me, the difficult things have been, like, if I've never met this athlete before, still want to make sure that they're in that, like, optimal zone of improvement and then feeling them out through the actual training session. So if I have two to three new athletes in a training session, I'll talk to them first. Ask, like, all right, what. What are some things you want to work on today? What are some things that you feel like you lack in game or just want to improve on? I'll understand that. Say, it's like offhand dribbling offhand, finishing and shooting off the dribble. Something. Something like that. So I. I gather that kind of information. I put them through a warmup. Some drills that, like, are very neutral. They might hit, like, five, at least five out of 10 shots. See how they adapt to that. And if they adapt well, they're like, oh, like, I'll get the next one. Or if they're like, damn, like, they're getting really frustrated, then maybe I gear more towards, like, 7 to 10 and, like, make the. Make the drill a little bit easier. But if they're like, okay, it's whatever, I'm. I'm going to bust through this and, like, next drill I'm going to get it, then maybe I do make it, like 3 out of 10 a little bit harder, because they might like that competitive nature. So I think it just depends on who's in your session. And like, I kind of alluded to whenever you came onto the show, like, you talked all about emotional intelligence. I know you're huge on that. I am, too. So understanding your athletes and, and even if you don't, trying to figure out that information as quickly as you can, adapting as quickly as you can on the fly throughout the session, pick up on body language, pick up on how they communicate with the other people there. Like, if they don't know anybody in that session, like, are they. Are they shying away? Are they trying to converse with them? Are they not making eye contact with you? Are they very timid? Things like that? If they're just very insecure and, like, they're a little bit younger, then you just need to maybe hold their hand a little bit more. But if you're already established with a certain player, then, like, yeah, push them. If you know how to push them and they, you know that they can handle it, then make it as hard as you need to. Make it as hard as you want. I feel like those kind of situations are easier, but when you don't know an athlete, that's kind of when, like, the art of coaching comes and, like, understanding body language, understanding the emotional intelligence side of things.

So, so much of it is about, like, that, that push and pull, where it's like, okay, how much can they take in terms of, you know, failure? And. And I think a lot of times, like, what I love to do now is just, like, reframe the whole thing. So I might say, like, the first thing I might say is, like, hey, listen, like, I. I don't go home and judge today's workout based on, oh, you only made 30% of your shots, and you made 35 last time. So that, like, that was terrible today. Like, that's not how I view it at all. I go back and I completely view it based on, hey, did they struggle or did they not? Because if I leave here and you don't struggle at all, then that's on me. Like, that means I didn't do a good job today. I didn't help you get better today. So not only do I want you to struggle, I come here thinking about how to make you struggle more. And so now when it happens, they understand that, like, okay, this is the. This is a part of it, right? This is like, this is. This is the plan. This is. And then here's why that has to happen. So I think a lot of times reframing it, even, like, from the beginning, just be like, hey, like, this is how it's going to be, and here's why we do it this way, so that they understand, like, hey, it's okay. And, you know, nobody's judging me for this right there. And it's nice to have players, too, in those sessions who have been around a little bit longer, who you can, like, they can kind of confirm that. Be like, hey, remember when we started this? This was, like, really, really hard. And, you know, eventually, though, you pick it up and they'll be able to tell them that, too. So you kind of have that. That aspect with it as well. But, no, I really think that, that, that that's important when you approach things the way that you and I do, being able to create that environment where, hey, listen, you might struggle, but you have to. And if you don't, it's. It means that I'm not doing a good job. But you're not getting any better.

So. No, 100%. And to your point, like, I don't. Yeah, I. I never go home. Like, damn, they missed every single shot today. No, I. And to your point, I. I do go into sessions, obviously wanting them to struggle, but at the same time, like, it. I go based on, like, how many decisions did you make that session, too? Right. And I think you've talked about that in the past. Like, how can we basically make. Make it seem like. Or figure out if, like, this session was, like, a good session and not basing it on how many reps we got up or how many shots we made. Right. Well, let's. Let's do it based off decisions. Like, if they were making decisions and they were failing, that's fine. They made 20 decisions today. And tomorrow, half of those decisions, or a quarter of those decisions will be better.

One of the episodes of your podcast you taught, you kind of talked about the mama mentality, the Hooper's mindset, and you kind of talked about how, you know, a lot of times that's like a really praised. It's like the goal of what every player should be mentally, every player should have that mindset. But you also talked about how that can become toxic a lot of times, and a lot of times it can do more harm than good. And I actually really love that topic and that conversation. So kind of explain the why behind. Hey, why can this be? Why can this be a toxic thing?

Yeah. So first off, I've been thinking about, like, I don't like tarnishing the mama mentality because obviously Kobe was phenomenal and rip Kobe. So it's. I mean, it ended up being the mommy mentality and that's what I titled it. But kind of like that toxic. Like, like I need to just put everything into basketball. I think that that can be toxic sometimes. And I think unless you're. Because yes, there are some late bloomers and sometimes you may figure it out later on in life. And you can go pro, obviously. But I feel like a lot of pro guys know throughout their life, like, I have an opportunity to go pro. So your average guys like myself, like I did, I have a dream of playing in the NBA when I was like eight years old. Sure. But as I got older, obviously, like, I kind of realized I don't know if the NBA is realistic, but like, whatever, maybe overseas. And then as that obviously things change. But like a lot of people have this mindset where in reality we're all like pretty average players, like a very, very small percentage of players go and play and get paid millions of dollars. Right. So if we have this mindset that all we need to do is work out and watch film and consume basketball and that's our entire life. And from an early age that we adopt that mindset, that's all we have. Right. So that mama mentality, that kind of. That's all we have. Like that, that becomes our identity and we really latch onto that. So whenever that time comes where it's like, okay, it's either I try to sign an agent and like figure out if I can go play overseas and kind of keep this dream going, or it's like I go find a 9 to 5 or like a different career path. Obviously you don't have to go find a, find a 9 to 5, but it's either basically, I try to fight that dream or I kind of let it crumble. So whenever that time comes, you have to make that decision, you kind of lose your identity, right? So whenever you latch onto that identity and like, I am basketball, you don't have anything else to fall back onto. And I, and you know, I, I actually got some questions from friends of mine and like, just people that listen to the podcast. Well, isn't that considered quitting? Or like, like, why should you have a plan B? And I'm like, well, honestly, it's not a bad point to bring up because if you are somebody who does have a chance, then maybe you shouldn't have a plan B. But I don't really view it as a plan B. I just view it as being a human being, right. And enjoying life beyond basketball. Because you don't have to be basketball. It's just something that you do. So I think it's, it, it becomes toxic when it consumes you. And that's all you have. And in the, in the episode that I put out, I, I said, like, you know, there are people out there that are like, I'm going to miss time with my family because I need to get this workout in whenever it's consuming you so much that you're like, choosing it over your family, your friends, like holidays, things like that. It's not that big of a deal because, like, you just have to be realistic with yourself. If you're getting paid millions of dollars, yes, prioritize it. But if you're just like on a men's league team every Monday or every Thursday, like, you don't have to miss time with your family, it's really not that big of a deal. And I think at that point it becomes toxic because you're, you're, you're losing valuable time, right? Like, live your life. I think that experiencing, like having hobbies, experiencing the world, experiencing your friends having a good time, like, those things are way more important to, to me at least, and I think they should be more important to other people than making sure you get your, your lift in or making sure you get your shots up, when in reality it really doesn't matter all that much unless you are a college athlete in your, in, in your season or in your off season or like you're getting paid paid million millions of dollars. Obviously, like, high school is important too. I'm not saying, like, your situation isn't important, but just be realistic with yourself and like, do I really have to miss this dinner with my aunt to go get shots up or can I just do it after? Right. Like, don't prioritize that kind of stuff because in that, at that point I feel like it becomes toxic, at least in my opinion.

Yeah. And I think, I think one of the, one of the points that you made that you kind of talked about was just like your, your what, what is your identity, right? And I think that's where a big struggle is and where this can become sort of a toxic thing. It's like when your identity becomes basketball and basketball is what defines you, then, you know, you're, you're literally at the whim of did you have a good game or not? Right? And then if you do, then life is great and if you didn't, then life is horrible. Right? And that's just like the worst place to be. And that can be, I mean, this can be for way more than just basketball. It can be the same thing with like, with training. Like, if I'm like, hey, you know, if workouts went well today, then I'm awesome. If they didn't, then life is horrible. And if that's my entire identity is just that, then like, things are going to be bad. And I don't want to be in a spot where like 50% of the time I feel great. And then the other 50% of the time it's just like the world is, is, is over. Right? And I think when, when players put everything into basketball, especially younger players, like when everything is just about that and you kind of neglect everything else and that's where all of your like self worth and all your identity is based on, then you're going to set yourself up to like, be really miserable all the time. And that's not, that's not a position where, I mean, because I see it obviously, like, I mean, I've been through it. When I was growing up, that was like the, that was. The thing is, like, it's all about this, all about this, this, this. And then it's like, man, you're going to spend a lot of time being really upset because at the end of the day, basketball is like, it's a great thing. But there's so much that goes into, you know, being successful in it. And it's not always just how hard do I work? If it was a competition about who works the hardest and whoever worked the hardest was, you know, the best player, and it was just like a, it was just like that was how it worked, then things would look a lot different. But at the end of the day, Some people are 7ft tall and jump 40 inches, and they might not have to work as hard as somebody who, you know is 5 foot 10 and jumps 25 inches. Right? They might. That that person who's smaller, less athletic might work. They might. And listen, that's. That's like, I might work way harder than that person who is 7ft tall, but at the end of the day, they have a very big affordance over me. And that might mean that that work isn't going to translate to me being more successful than that person. So if my entire identity is based on, hey, this is what matters, then you're going to set yourself up for being miserable when things don't happen. So I think, like you said, putting basketball in its place is like, hey, this is a great thing, you know, but I also have a family, right. I have other things I like to do. And now basketball stays what it is, which is something that's supposed to be fun, so it's supposed to be enjoyable. And obviously you want to work at it and get the most out of it that you can, you know, because you can get a lot out of basketball. Obviously, you and I, like, this is what we do. Like, we have a lot. We're not playing in the NBA, but basketball has still done a lot for us, and that's how we've even met. Right. So it's like, it can produce, it can do so much for you, but at the end of the day, if it's your identity, it can. It can end up being what consumes you as well.

Yeah. And I, I don't mean to, like, shine it so negatively. Like, like you said, you learn a lot of really good things from basketball. Like, if you, if you bust your ass every day for years, like, that's valuable. I'm not trying to say don't do that. I'm just saying, like you said, don't identify with it and be consumed by it to where it takes you out of important situations in your life. And like, whenever I was a little bit younger, that, like, it consumed me, right? Like, it became my identity. And whenever I would have a bad game or if we lost or if I didn't get in as much as I thought I should have, like, I would go to dinner with my friends or with my. With my family, like, sometimes family that, like, drove, like, hours to come see me play that I haven't seen in months, and I would sit there and sulk the entire time at dinner, right. Like, I couldn't differentiate and I couldn't dissociate myself from that game because I was identifying with the game, I was identifying with my mistakes. But it's like I, I, I can't do that because it's not fair to one myself and it's not fair to the people that are around me because they're not getting who I am. Like, I'm not present in that moment. I'm, I'm stuck in that moment, right? So it's not fair to do that. And I can't identify with those mistakes. I can't identify with the game of basketball because it's just, that's not who I am. It's just something that I do. You know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, kind of going with this, with this kind of advice to players here when it comes to, you know, overall development. How can players kind of take ownership of their development, you know, whether they have a trainer or a coach they work with or not? How can players kind of set themselves up to really get the most out of the time they spend on the court?

Yeah, I think, I think like a lot of things, it starts with kind of like a mental shift, right? So if you're a player that's kind of, doesn't necessarily, I don't want to say does the bare minimum, but like shows up to practice, you're a good teammate, you work hard, but that's really all you do, then I think that it, it, it, it takes a mental shift. Like I, I'm going to take this a little bit more seriously. I'm going to invest in myself and start by putting a little bit of extra work in once a week, then twice a week, then three times a week, whatever it is, right? Or figuring out like maybe I can follow somebody like yourself or somebody like myself or somebody who preaches like how to train properly, right? Figuring out how to get the most out of the sessions that I'm not on court with my team and then like just adopting different styles, I don't really know how to, how to phrase it, but adopting different ways to better yourself. Like watching a bunch of film, right? Whether it's on yourself, the NBA, college, women's basketball, whatever, it is just consuming more basketball because the more you watch, the more subtleties you'll pick up on, the more you'll learn about yourself and just the game of basketball. And then being like self reflecting, you know what I mean? Like understanding, being really honest with yourself. Like I, like I suck going off my right foot and finishing in the air, right? Or I suck going off of two Feet. I suck at floaters. Understanding what your weaknesses are and then gearing your actual sessions towards those weaknesses, right? Like, one of the guys that I work with super closely, I'm like, he really likes the training aspect of things, the science, all that kind of stuff. So he and I talk about that a lot, and I'm not able to get over to the team that I'm working with outside of the. A lot of time that we have as a team, a bunch. So he's actually taking on, like, he's taking guys into the gym and getting extra working with them, and he's like, calling me and texting me every single day, like, what they've done. And he says that it's actually helped him a lot, like taking on that role as the quote, unquote trainer. And he's like, it does a couple of different things, right? It helps him identify his own weaknesses and how to train them better and also how to, like, put together a training session, right? So if he asks his teammate, like, what do you feel like you need to work on? And then he actually has to go through the process of being like, all right, well, you need to work on this. The Tyler and I have done this. Or I think that we could do this drill to work on that, right? Like, figuring out how to actually apply that to a training session could really help. It's. It's interesting because you. You were at the first pdc, right? One thing that Devin Williams said that obviously stuck with me was to teach us to learn twice. So I think that I'm not. I'm not gonna sit here and say, like, as a athlete or a player, you need to, like, become a trainer. But maybe leading a session here or there for yourself or for, like, another teammate, you learn a lot of things about yourself and you learn a lot of things about how to gear a training session, right? So I think taking that opportunity to kind of just be a leader, be like the trainer for a day, just putting on that ball cap, understanding, like, how things work and then communicating. If you have the luxury of communicating with a guy, like, like, if. If you're somebody's trainer, if I'm somebody's trainer, like, we're both very communicative, right? So taking advantage of that and asking, like, what can I do to better my sessions? Or what can I do to, like, why? Why do we do this? Or why do we do that? So being very curious and just asking questions, I think, goes a long way. And I guess the second part to that entire question would be like what do you do if you don't have anybody at all? First thing, find somebody. If you can't find somebody, there are obviously ways that you can get better. And that's something that I've been thinking about a lot lately because I put out a lot of things on Instagram and whatever other social media that I have with somebody else or like a small sided game or something like that. And I'm sure there are people out there like, well dude, I don't have like a team to work with like that or I don't have a bunch of motivated friends and teammates to help me out in that way. Well, figure out how to challenge yourself in a one on one session, right? Or a one on O session, I should say. If you're working on finishing, for example, like you can't finish the same way twice or you have to hit it off the backboard in a different region of the backboard every single time, right? Figuring out ways to challenge yourself if you're, if you're bad at a left, right, two foot finish, work on that and then finish a different way every single time. Shooting, I don't know, different dribbles every single time, different dribble, speed, timing, gamify things, right? Like, like you, you, you have to hit five out of six shots every single spot that you shoot at. Um, I don't know, one, one thing that I was thinking of was rather than going for reps and shots, like I need to hit a thousand shots per game. Like go for feel instead of. So if you're feeling really good that day and you hit a hundred shots, that's all you need, right? After a hundred shots you feel good. If you're just not, feel like you're, you're not feeling very confident, you've had a bad shooting week, month, whatever it is, go into the gym and just shoot until you feel good, right? That may be a thousand shots, that may be 200 shots. So I say go, go in there, go for feel, ball handling for feel, finishing for feel, shooting for feel rather than reps. Because reps is like, also can kind of become kind of mundane. Like I just need to get up my 500 shots. But maybe you don't need 500 shots that day. Maybe you need a thousand or maybe you need 50. Like, I don't know, maybe you already feel really good. So yeah, feel is another thing that I've been contemplating as far as like a one on no session.

Yeah, no, I love that point. Cause I think it was, I think it was Kyle Korver, who had mentioned that or somebody who worked with Kyle Korver said that there'd be days where like Kyle Kover would walk into the gym and start shooting and then he'd be like, nope, we're not doing this today. Like, I just, it, I just, I don't have it today. And like that was like his feel like something. He would just have a feel, like, no, I don't need to do anymore. Like, this is where I need to stop. And that's obviously one of the best shooters to ever play. And that was all like, that was just a feel thing. So I think developing that, like as you put in more time, you start to really think about, okay, do I feel good? Do I not feel good? Like, what do I need to do to make this feel better? Am I going, am I doing too much right now? I think that's like kind of that next level aspect. So I love that you brought that up right there. Um, there's a lot of great stuff. And I think to your point, you know, to teach us to learn twice, finding any kind of moment to like, whether it's just demonstrate, whether it's just like help you know, your teammates with different things, that makes you better in the process of that as well. And I think that's a great thing that players can do to again have to learn something again and not just learn it. I would say like when you have to actually teach amplifies that learning because now you have to be able to communicate that as well. So you really have to think about it and understand it. And I think that is. And I'm sure you can agree, but like as a trainer, I just saw Shout Out Danny Cooper, he just posted about this yesterday on Instagram where it's like he's able to take situations that he's struggling in, in whether it's pickup or whatever. And he's able to craft these small sided games because he just like thinks about it now. It's like, okay, well this is where I'm struggling, so how do I kind of reverse engineer to work on this? And that's kind of what happens when you spend time obviously doing this, but watching film and trying to piece together understanding the science behind it. And, and again, you know, he's still playing and as a player that helps him a lot. Right? So I think for players as well, it's like you kind of mentioned watching film is important because then you're able to tie things together. But then also thinking about, okay, where do I struggle? And how can I replicate that? How can I put myself in a position to have to work on that? Even if it means, okay, even if it's not in, you know, your own workouts, maybe it's at your open gyms or pickup games. If I'm struggling in a certain area, how can I make sure that, like, this is what I'm focused on doing? I could just do this the whole time and I'm good at it, but I'm going to make it harder on myself. I'm going to do this the whole time because I know I struggle with it. And now I can expand my capacity to perform a little bit. I think that's another sort of mindset shift that players can make that'll help them to accelerate that, that development.

No, 100%. And I was actually talking about it the other day. It's like, I feel like a lot of people that take the transition from player to coach or player to player development coach or trainer or whatever, afterwards, they always say, like, I'm a way better player than I was as an actual player. Right? So I, I think it's also like, part of that mental shift. So I think Danny is in a unique situation where he's in that, like, mental, I guess, world. Like, he's, he's just in the, he's just in the mindset of where, like, he, he can be a trainer, but he can also, like, train himself. And he's still a player, obviously the trainer player. That's like his whole thing. But I think it just comes with, like, whenever you, whenever you are a player, you put so much weight on your performance, right? Whereas if you're a trainer, it's like, I'm not really worried about a coach's opinion or my, my teammate's opinion. I'm just hoping to have fun now. So, like, if I go nuts, then I, that, that's that. But it's like, I, I don't, I'm not putting so much weight on my performance, on my play. So I think Danny may be in that unique situation where it's like, yeah, he's obviously still cares about his performance, but it's where he can kind of dissociate that and just be like, I'm, I'm hoping because I love it and I'm not hoping because I have, like, I have to, you know what I mean? Like, I'm not doing it for somebody's approval. I'm doing it because I love this game. And I, I, I train and like, I, he's obviously trained Some high level guys. Like he was with Mac McClung all summer. Lamar Stevens, he's been around guys like Drew Hamlin and he, he understands that on, on a different level and that helps a lot. But I think it's like the mental side of things, whenever you make that transition is, is an interesting aspect.

Yeah, yeah, no, definitely. And so kind of to finish up, you know, we talked about the players, but when it comes to, you know, trainers and kind of where you've gotten yourself to, what would be your advice when it comes to the process of improving as a trainer and figuring out like, what matters and how to actually be better at helping your players be better?

Yeah, I think what I really tried to do was like, just ask as many questions as I could and don't just ask random people, you know what I mean? Like, I, I, I tried to reach out to people that I, that I knew were really good at what they do. So I, I, I reached out to Tyler Claire pretty early whenever I like wanted to start training. I reached out to Coleman super early. I went to a, like I went to their clinic to participate in a clinic and then afterwards I talked to them and was able to like create a pretty good relationship with them. So like I go and see Tyler like probably once every, like every other month. So like, like handful of times throughout the year. I was able to intern with, with Coleman because of the, the relationship that I built with him, intern with him for the entire month of July. So just, you know, communicating with guys with, with people in this industry that are really good at what they do and just genuinely just like seeking answers. Right. So a podcast is obviously a unique situation. Like not everybody's gonna have a podcast, but even just DMing somebody a question, a lot of these people are super open and they'll just answer you, right? So if it's, you want to like, I, I, every single person that's, that I've gotten on my podcast, I've DMed and they've like, that's, that's how I've communicated with them and got them onto the podcast. So it's not like I like have this phenomenal relationship with them. Some of them I do now, but like, I don't have a great relationship with Mike G. But all I did was DM him and he said like, yeah, we'll, we'll get it done. So like asking questions and don't be afraid to like send that DM or email or text. The next part of it is obviously doing your own research and then More importantly is just trying to apply it, right? Like, get, get your own reps as, as a trainer, as a coach. So whether it's you're training for free or you're coaching for free, or it's like your own teammates, whoever you have and whoever is in front of you, just take advantage of that, like, put them through a drill. Be like, yo, I, I really want to try this. You can be transparent about it or if it's somebody who's paying you, like, you don't have to be like, hey, I want to try this new drill with you, obviously. But, like, figure out how you can apply. Because if you have all this input and you don't apply, you don't know how it's going to work, right? Like, you may in theory really like this concept as a trainer, but whenever you do it, it might feel a little funky and you may not like it at all. You may not like how you communicate it. You may not like how your athletes and your players actually take it. Um, so applying it and making it your own is super important. And plus, whenever you apply it, like, you just, you get your opportunity to, to put your own swing on things and, and figure out what works for you. Because like I said, you might not like somebody else's concept and it might just not be yours. Um, and then just like I said, just network. You know what I mean? Just find other people that are like minded, have conversations, research, consume a lot. Like, podcasts are great. I've learned a lot from podcast. Ebooks, regular books, audiobooks, whatever. You can just consume, consume, consume. And then more importantly, make sure to output, right? Like, make sure to apply it and then just experience. I think those things have, have helped me a lot.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, and I love that. And I think the overall, like, theme with kind of your approach is just like, you have to, you have to always be like a student. Like, always be in that position where you're trying to learn. You have to keep, like, you have to always be humble and understand. Like, there's, there's so much more that I, that I need to know. And I think that that's kind of how I always feel is like, the more that I learn about this stuff, the more that, like, I'm around people who are really good at it. I'm like, wow, I know way less than I thought that I knew. And that's constantly where I'm at. So I'm constantly trying to push myself forward with that. And I think that's the best position to be in terms of growing and getting better. Because the worst place you can be is in a position where you feel like you figured it out. And I think that can happen. So understanding the fact that if I'm really, if I'm really getting after it and I'm really learning from other people and I'm doing my own research, I'm not close to knowing it all yet. And then, and then I think like you said there at the end, just applying it, whether it means as I people DM me about, hey, you know, I'm getting into training. Like, you know, do you have any advice and just like, just find people, teammates, friends, like, just train people. Like, start doing it. You're going to probably be pretty bad at it at first. Everybody is. And that's okay. You have to go through that process of being bad in order to get good at it. If you know, you could research and you can read all you want, but if you don't actually go do it and figure out how it works and figure out how you are as a trainer, what you need to be better at, then none of that's going to matter. So you have to really go through the fire ultimately to get better at it. But it's a process that's well worth it. But again, when you apply that application, like you said, with constantly being in that state of I need to be better, like, I need to learn more, um, there's so much more for me to learn, then that's the best place for you to be at.

Not for sure and just kind of like the last thing. Obviously we talked about like the games based approach and like affordances and kind of like tying science into to what we do. But I don't think that you need to always go that route. Right? Like, you don't have to, like, I don't, I don't say all this stuff to be like, all right, like if you're, if you want to be a trainer, you have to do all this and read all this and like I, I just, I, I enjoy it and I think that it makes sense. But you don't have to do that, right? Like, like you said, experience is the best teacher. So if you go out there and you just, you just train, like, you just immerse yourself in the training culture and you just train and get experience. And whether it's something that I would do necessarily doesn't really matter. Like, there's so many different ways to train. The important thing is if your players and your athletes enjoy it and they're getting better, then it doesn't matter how you're doing it, like, as long as nobody's getting hurt and they're getting better, they enjoy what you're prescribing them and, like, how you're training them, and that's what matters, right? So just go and do it. Like you said, like, just go and do the thing. Go. Go and train. Whether it's terrible at first or maybe it's really good at first, maybe you're just a natural. It doesn't really matter. Just make sure you continue to grow and, like, evolve every single. Every single month, every single year, every single day. You can get better.

Yeah. No, I love it. Listen, tc, I really appreciate you being on the podcast, man. There's. There's so much in here, and I think there's a ton of clips and all that sort of stuff. And. But before we head out, I don't know if you have any. Any closing thoughts, anything you want to leave people with. If not, you just let people know where they can find you.

Yeah, I mean, closing. Closing things. Just make sure to go out there and try to get better every single day, whether you're a player, whether you're a trainer, coach, just somebody that likes listening to this stuff. I don't know. Um, just try to better yourself every single day, right? Like, you get an opportunity every single day you wake up to better yourself, whether that's a podcast or an article to read or whatever it is. And I. If you are a trainer, a coach, whatever, performance coach, like, don't take your role for granted, right? So every single day you're working with athletes and you're. You're providing an example for these. For these people, right? So every single day, try to. Try to make sure you come with a smile on your face and provide and be that role model, right? Like, make an impact on them and make. Make sure you're making good decisions and impacting them as people and not just athletes. And I think that that's something that I. That I try to live by as a trainer, as a coach. Um, and like, my. Something that I really like is they don't. They don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. Um, so kind of live by that as. As a trainer, as a coach, and then where you can find me kind of mentioned it, but the TCP podcast, that's my podcast. Um, there's like close to 30 episodes now, so there's plenty of. Plenty of information to consume there. Ethan was obviously a. A guest there. I got guys like Danny Cooper has been on this podcast. Some other big names like Coleman Ayers, Tyler LeClaire, Yorick, Mike G, Josh fan, Bobby White. Some, some some good stuff in there and then the solo episodes that I have I feel like are pretty solid information as well and then you can find me on Instagram @t underscore. So appreciate you for having me on Ethan.

Yeah man, definitely. Yeah. Make sure if you guys have not gone to listen to Tyler's podcast, check that out. All the links for that will be in the description of all this. But like you said I've been on there so go check out that episode. But like you said a lot of big names on there too so some great stuff in there and give him a follow as well. I appreciate all you guys who are listening who are watching and I'll talk to you guys soon.

Peace Sam.