Dr. Marisa Franco - The Profound Science Of Friendship

All right, team, welcome back. Maybe this sounds like an interesting topic to you based on the title. Let me first tell you a little bit about my guest today. Dr. Marissa G. Franco is a New York Times best selling author, professor and psychologist. She communicates the science of connection and digestible ways and is passionate about sharing research with people it could help the most. So she's done a tremendous amount of work. Her words, her thoughts, her work featured in major outlets like Psychology Today, Scientific America and the New York Times. And she often does speaking engagements where she talks about how to build relationships in many different ways. Not just intimate relationships or friendships, but also relationships at work. So that's what we're going to talk about today. She wrote a book called Platonic. And really, this book is about how to develop deep and meaningful friendships. And the reason why I wanted to have this conversation is because I'm sure that we've all sort of seen the rise and the epidemic of loneliness that has started to penetrate our culture and specifically within men. I've seen a lot of guys over the years. I mean, I can't tell you how many men I have reaching out to me, asking me questions like how do I make friends? Where do I meet good men to have friendship with? And the truth from what the data shows, the research shows that men are far more likely to not have friends, to be friendless. So in this conversation, we are going to talk about the importance of friendship. We are going to talk about how to develop those deep and meaningful relationships. We're going to talk about what it will require of you. And Dr. Franco does an exceptional job of sharing some very profound and meaningful research and data about our attachment styles, how to keep and develop friendships and the importance of those relationships. So if you're interested in human beings at all, just to be a little, you know, combative with you, but just if you're, if you're interested in human beings at all and you are wanting, you're somebody that's wanting to better develop friendships or just understand the human psyche a little bit more effectively and the importance that relationships play within our life, then this episode is going to be fascinating for you. I really enjoyed this conversation and some of the research that she shared is phenomenal. So this might be a good one to share with a partner, with a friend, and to have some discourse around. As always, thank you so much for tuning in. Thank you so much for subscribing to this show, to the channel, on whatever platform you're listening to on, and thank you so much. If you have left us a rating and review goes such a long way. And we have just been growing and growing and growing. And so thank you to each and every single one of you for tuning into these conversations. As always, if you want to hear a specific guest or a specific topic, please DM me on Instagram Man Talks. I try and read all of my DMs, and I'd be happy to source out a guest that you are wanting to hear. So without any further delay, please welcome Dr. Marisa G. Franco. All right, Marissa, welcome to the Mantalk Show. How are you doing today?

I'm doing good. Thank you for having me.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to this conversation. I've actually had a lot of men over the years ask questions about this topic, so I think it's going to be very relevant for a lot of men that are out there. But before we get into any of that, I have to ask you the question that stumps every guest that comes on the show, which is tell us a story about a defining moment in your life that made you who you are today.

You know, I was a professor at a different institution, and it was like a high research output institution anyway. It was prestigious in the world of academia to be at these institutions that promote a lot of research. And I didn't like it. And so I guess I felt this tension between, I don't know, achieving something that everybody wanted of me and realizing that it wasn't actually for me. And I think for probably a long time, I probably would have stuck with what was the prestigious decision? What was the decision that would make me feel very valued by others. And, yeah, I think I was really good at, like, kind of like powering through things, even if they felt bad. Right. But it felt bad enough that I didn't feel like I wanted to power through anymore and I left. And I feel like since then I've been a lot more, I don't know, I move more towards my joy and I move more towards what fits for me. What do I like, what do I enjoy, what am I passionate about? And I think that was the beginning of, like, I guess, unlearning external validation for how I made my life choices and being more centered and validating of my own internal needs. So. So that's why it was really meaningful for me.

It's interesting. I mean, it almost sounds like you have moved closer towards, like, a sense of purpose, you know, a deeper sense of meaning within your life. But it almost sounds like it required a little bit of that hardship of being in A position of, oh, this is what people expect of me. I'm in the prestigious institution. I'm not super happy. And having to listen to that. Like, do you feel. Because I think for a lot of people in our society, but, you know, men especially are looking for a deeper sense of purpose in their life. And I feel like purpose leaves breadcrumbs, you know, these, like, little hints along the way. So do you feel like there's merit in listening to where we're uncomfortable or merit in listening to where we're unhappy within the work that we're doing and that can lead us to a. A deeper sense of what we actually want?

I do. I do. And I think I used to undervalue feelings as guideposts. Right. That it's not. It doesn't mean it's not good fit because it doesn't make me feel good. Right. If it makes sense externally, then what is a feeling? Right. And now I think I value that a lot more. Like, a feeling is a ton of information. Right. It's a ton of intellectual information captured in a sensation about how you're relating to things, how you value things, whether things are a good fit for you, whether they make you feel safe. Like so many different dimensions of information that are captured in a feeling. And so why should we ignore something that is, like, I don't know, the culmination of so many different thoughts and so many different dimensions at once. Right. I think, you know, obviously there's limitations on which you can just follow your feelings, but I think it should be something that's considered and considered powerfully when we're figuring out what our purpose is and what our passions are.

Yeah. So taking it into the logical equation of what direction should we be taking our lives is pretty important. So what would you say led you to writing this book? So you wrote this book Platonic how the science of attachment can help you make and keep friends, which is such an interesting topic. So I'm curious, was this something that you wanted to write about for a long time? Is this something that you felt was important, given the culture that we're in right now? Just tell us a little bit more about what brought this about.

So, funny enough, I decided to write it before the pandemic. It was tragically good timing that it has come out now. But for me, it was maybe a decade ago, in my young 20s, going through romantic relationships and them not working out and feeling like, man, I'm not lovable without this, or I don't have any love in my life without this. And so to kind of work through that grief, I started this wellness group with my friends. So we met up, we cooked, we meditated, we did yoga. I made it super academic. I was like, bring in some research evidence that your wellness factor contributes to mental health and well being. Anyway, they bore with me, and I'm glad they did because it was so healing for me. And it wasn't the yoga or the meditation. It was just being in community with people every week that loved me and who I loved. And I think going through that experience made me really question some of these beliefs that I had that romantic love is the pinnacle of love. And without it, I have no love. Because here I was noticing there's this love around me and it's always been around me. And why have I felt like I needed to throw that in the garbage or underestimate it? And now I see that we're just so lonely. So why would we throw even a morsel of love in the garbage? Right when, when we're so disconnected, why do we act like platonic love doesn't matter? So I think I was pulled to write platonic, really, because I was like, let's start challenging this hierarchy that we place on love because I think it doesn't help single people and it also doesn't help people in their relationships when they feel like one person should be fulfilling everything. Because this is what love is. And, you know, this is the meaning of love to have one person be your soulmate and so you don't need anybody else. So I just felt like that was a larger cultural problem and if I wanted to address it, I had to teach people. How can you actually make and keep friends and cultivate deep friendship?

Yeah, it's interesting because it's. On one hand, it's something that seems to almost unfold naturally through school. Like, it's almost something that we should. That we quote, unquote, I'm using air quotes. Should learn during the education process where we're around other people. But it's also not necessarily something that you're taught how to do. You know, how to make friends. It's actually very interesting how often I get questions from men around just how do I make friends? You know, where do I meet good men to be friends with? That was one of the interesting things. When I started to do this work a decade ago, how many guys were asking that question and how many men sort of felt like they. They couldn't do that or they didn't know how to do that? It was like, it was A skill set that we somehow lapsed on, you know, And I think you're right in terms of the overemphasis on intimate relationships as being this sort of one. I call it the Disneyfied version. Right. It's like there's this oneitis that we all get sort of sucked into that Disney presents us with, like the pinnacle of love. Can you talk a little bit more about the notion of platonic love? Because you mentioned that, and I think that's. I don't know if I've ever heard that before. I'd like to hear more about that.

Yeah. So, Connor, first I wanted to touch on this idea that, you know, it should be natural. Right. And so when we're in school, we have these ingredients that sociologist Rebecca Adams calls out as the ingredients for friendship to happen organically. Repeated, unplanned interaction, shared vulnerability. That's recess, that's lunch, that's gym. But when you're adult, when you're an adult, you don't often have those ingredients in your life. So, you know, work, we see people every day, but we're not necessarily letting our guard down or being vulnerable. So what that means is that if you're relying on that same template that you had when you were a child, you're actually going to end up lonely. And there's actually one study that found that people that thought friendship happened without effort are more lonely, whereas people that think it takes effort are less lonely because they make the effort. So I do want to disabuse people of the notion of that friendship happens organically because in adulthood it often does not. You have to try, you have to initiate. And then you asked me what Platonic love is, and I grappled with this in Platonic that. I think a lot of us see this Platonic love as like romantic love with some screws missing. There's no sex, there's no passion, Right. So it's like a lesser form, but actually in its original iteration, it's. It's based off of. The word comes from the root of Plato, Platonic love. And this Italian philosopher, my Celio Ficino, he kind of talked about Platonic love as a love that transcended the physical. Right. It was beautiful enough so that we desired to be in it even when we didn't have a physical body. And so throughout history, like the ancient Greeks and then in the Enlightenment, the Renaissance, there was a different perception of friendship as a more elevated state of connection in some ways, because was a love that we chose even without these tertiary benefits. So how Great. Must it be then?

I love that. I love that definition. And I'm curious. My first thought when I was, you know, reading through your book and prepping for this conversation was the question of, you know, do men and women build that bond of friendship differently? Are there certain. Certain prerequisites that show up? Are there certain elements that. That maintain male and female friendships or. Or break them apart? Like, I'm deeply curious about that.

Yeah, that's a great question. So I'll share some research on this topic with the disclaimer that obviously these are generalizations and there's a lot of within group differences. And, you know, some men don't do friendship like this. Some women don't do friendship like this. But here's what we find in terms of the trends. Men are not experiencing as intimate of friendship as women are. Men are more likely to have no friends than women are. Men are about half as likely to reach out for emotional support to their friends in a given week as women. Men are about half as likely to express affection with their friends compared to women. And so with men, I think we tend to see more of this companionate friendship. Like, we meet up to hang out. We are. And we typically have this third object, which is like something else we can focus on outside of each other. Like a game. You know, we're playing sports together, we're watching a sports game. We're playing this video game together. Right. Whereas woman will interact without that third object. Just sort of, let's meet up and chat. Let's have dinner. I want to hear about your life. Right. And so those. If we're plant. If we're painting very broad strokes are some of the differences that men and women tend to experience. What we also know from that research is that women's friendships look more like their romantic relationships. Right. Because that same intimacy, that vulnerability they experience in their romantic relationships and their friendships, whereas men's friendships tend to look kind of different. So they. They kind of compartmentalize more. Like, in my romantic relationship, that's where I'm going to actually be vulnerable. But with my friends, nah, I'm just gonna kind of chill. Like, we're gonna hang out and maybe we'll talk about, you know, current events or this game or that third object versus talking about, like, our feelings and our emotions.

Yeah. It does seem like oftentimes men's friendships revolve our, you know, our friendships revolve around some form of, like, mission. You know, I love that you brought in, like, the third object. Cause I think about for whatever reason, I was thinking about different movies that have portrayed men's friendships, you know, and the first one, and this is maybe odd, but the first one that came to mind was three, the movie 300. I don't know if you ever saw that, like the Sparta movie. And so there was just sort of like this mission that they were all on. And they're, you know, they're warriors, they're banded together and they're sort of on this mission, but they are also deeply immersed in one another's lives and families and relations. And it does seem like sometimes we as men look for that third object as a connective tissue that sort of signifies whether or not, you know, for better or for worse, but sort of signifies whether or not we want to be friends with another man. So is there merit in overcoming that? Maybe not overcoming, maybe that's not the right way of saying it, but is there merit in bringing in the type of friendships with other men where it's not about a mission and it's more about what you're experiencing?

Yeah, well, I think so, absolutely. Because when men are friends with women, they tend to experience more intimacy in their friendships compared to when they're friends with men. And there's mixed research on this. Some studies show that when men report their most quality connections, they report other men. But some studies actually show that they report their woman friends or their, their deepest, most quality connections. And for women generally, we see that when they report on their most deep quality connections, it's with other women. So I think it's not that men don't want vulnerability and don't want deep connection and deep sharing because they access it through their spouse or through their woman friends often. Right. It's just that I think men's scripts for friendships, and there's historical reasons for this, tend to be a lot more constrained than women. What feels appropriate to do in a friendship feels. It feels like the script is a lot smaller or thinner or more restricted than what women feel comfortable doing together and with friends. And so that's why I think that men could benefit. Because we know from the research, for example, that out of 106 factors that prevent against depression, having someone to confide in is the number one protector. Which signifies that all of us need vulnerability. All of us need a place, someone to express our emotions with. Right. No matter what our gender is. And I think the fact that men aren't finding access to that can really, can really be detrimental to overall mental health, well being and feelings of connectedness and feelings of Being seen or being understood by other people.

You talked about some of the. And I don't want to linger on this one too much, but you talked about, like, the historical factors that may have led to this. Can you just speak a little bit more about that?

Yeah. So before 1867, men and women's friendship looked a lot more similar. Like, if you look at pictures from that time, it's like men kind of cuddling with each other, sharing beds. Frederick Douglass saying to his that his friend is what shook his decision the most to leave the plantation. You know, sharing these kind of very loving letters, being effusive and affectionate. Right. And that was all very normal. Right now we might see it as homoerotic, but back then, at that time, that was part of friendship for men and women. What changed was two psychiatrists, Richard von Kraft Ebbing and Sigmund Freud, who changed the way that people saw sexuality before them. It was forbidden to have sex with someone of the same sex, but it was not forbidden to. To engage in any type of behaviors that we think now could signify sexuality. So holding hands is not sex. You can do that with your friends. Sharing about, that's not sex. You can do that with your friends, you know, writing these love letters to each other, that's not sex. So none of that is stigmatized. Right. But then these two psychiatrists argued that same sex love is a sexual disorder. And you have a whole entire disordered identity that contributes to you wanting to have sex with someone of the same sex. So now all, an entire consolation of things could indicate this identity. You being too vulnerable, you being too intimate, you being too loving, you being too physical. Right. With your friends could suggest that you have this identity now, which is stigmatized. And so after that, we saw this change. This. It's called, you know, homo hysteria, which is straight men's fears of being perceived as gay that. That really ravaged from friendships overall. But I would argue men's friendships in particular, that after. After we changed our concept of what, you know, what being gay means of sexual orientation, that a lot of men fear. As much as I'd like to hang out with this guy or tell him I love him or experience intimacy with him, I'm not sure how that will be perceived or come off. I don't want to convey sexual interest because that then I might be experiencing so much shame. So I think a lot of men are in this really difficult tightrope where they're like, I want connection with other men, but I feel like anything that I do to Try to create that connection could make me experience shame and stigma.

Yeah, there could be like a ridicule of. I definitely have seen that. And it's interesting because in my previous line of work I was a classical singer, so I sang opera. And so. Yeah, and so a big part of, you know, sort of studying those time periods. Right. Like the Romantic era and whatnot. And it was interesting because it was much more common historically for men to do things like write poetry and to get together and they would just, you know, sort of share their writings together and, you know, share different experiences together. So it was much more common. And even in older times, it was much more common. Like what I was talking about before with 300 in Sparta, those warriors, and this is thousands of years ago, those warriors had a type of training where they would do hand to hand combat in the morning, but in the afternoon they would get together and learn poetry and dance. And so there was actually a very, you know, the arts were a very integral part even for the warriors. Right. That were. That were learning battle and combat. But we seem to have segregated those things. You know, we like separated them. And I think it's very interesting to see the dynamics that sometimes show up because there's still for most men, this very deep craving for those intimate relationships. Like we have, we have a online membership with like 500 guys in it called the Alliance. And it's a lot of guys building those types of relationships, you know, where there aren't filters in place or sort of like rules and restrictions of like, you shouldn't say this or you shouldn't do that, or, you know, you might be considered, you know, construed a certain way. But I'm curious if you have data or thoughts on the impact of men not having these friendships, like, what's the impact that it has on intimate relationships on the rest of their life? Because I can imagine that it's a little bit more strenuous on the other parts of their life.

Yeah, absolutely. So we see in the data that men just tend to rely on this one person to fulfill a lot of their emotional needs than women do. Women sort of stretch out their network. And I argue that in order to have healthy romance, both people need friends. And here's the data that I'm using to support that argument. When we get into conflict with our spouse, it negatively impacts our release of stress hormones, cortisol, but not so if we have quality connection outside the marriage. Other research finds that when I make a friend, I'm not only less depressed, but my spouse is less depressed as well. And you know, in general, when we're in a marriage with someone, our mental health sort of ricochets off one another. Right. So if I'm feeling bad, you're gonna feel bad. Right. And so because friendship and connection makes us feel feel so much happier and improves our mental health and well being, it is a resource for a marriage when people have people outside of the marriage to also support their mental health and wellbeing. In fact, there was a study on something called emotion chips that found that when you go to different people to help you manage different emotions, your overall wellbeing is better. So in general, it helps our, like I think marriage, your, you know, your spouse and your friends are, are sort of symbiotic to each other. Sometimes we think of them in tension, like, don't hang out with your friends, hang out with me. But actually you're gonna have more quality connection with me if you also have friends. Right. Because that's going to give you, bring you to a centered place when you interact with me. And we're going to trigger each other less. We're going to be able to be, you know, more regulated around each other. Right. And so that I think it's a harm to anybody's relationship with a spouse if you are only relying on them and if you don't have a larger social network. But outside of that, you know, Connor, there's these analyses on how different factors affect our mortality rates or how long we live. Right. Diet, exercise are ones that obviously affect how long we live. But actually social connection affects how long we live much more than our diet and our exercise. Like when we're lonely, our body is in a state of constant stress, constant inflammation. I could talk about why later. Right. So it's very harmful for our health when we experience loneliness. But not only that, the research finds there's actually three types of loneliness, only one of which a traditional spouse can fulfill, which is called intimate loneliness, that desire for that sort of deep intimacy with another person. But there's also relational loneliness, which is a desire for a friend kind of relationship, the sort of closeness of a friend, and also collective loneliness, which is a desire for a community working towards a common goal. So what this research suggests is not only is, is loneliness fatal in some ways over time, and it's a crude impact on us, but also that we need to engage in many different types of relationships to not feel lonely, that we need an entire community to feel whole, which we've known throughout the history of our species. But I would Say in the last century or so, somehow we've forgotten this lesson.

Yeah. Especially in the sort of illusory nature that I think social media can bring us, that we can be wildly connected virtually, but be lacking in the sort of intimacy and physical markers that we need from being in person with people, you know, and so there's a couple of things that you touched on there that I do want to circle back around on. One of them was because I think there was a study that came out of Harvard that followed a large group over the course of 75 years to try and predict the sort of like key indicator of health and longevity. And I think it was mostly men from the study, if I'm not mistaken. And they found that the quality of your relationships at 50 determined your health at 80. There was some correlate between those two. If I'm not, if I'm not mistaken or misrepresenting the study, can you talk a little bit more about the physical implications of being lonely, of not having a solid friend? Circles. I think you tied that into inflammation before, which is fascinating.

Yeah. So when you're lonely, let's think about this. Historically, if you were alone, separated from your tribe on the African savannah, right, you were in danger. You didn't have these people to protect you, and any animal might come up and attack you. So your. Our bodies when we're lonely put us on high alert for threats. We are hyper vigilant for signs that someone is going to be rejecting us. So loneliness then isn't just a feeling. It's a state of mind and it's a stress state. I say it's a state of mind because lonely people in this state of hypervigilance for threats are more likely to perceive rejection when it's not there. They actually report liking other people less, being less compassionate for humanity, liking their roommates less, being more hostile and aggressive in reaction to perceived slights. Right. So you're just in this threat threatened state where you're perceiving everything in a neg in a more negative light than you would if you were feeling socially connected. And you might be thinking things like, everybody is rejecting me. Nobody wants to hear from me. If I hang out with them, I won't even have any. I won't enjoy it at all. You know, they're out to get me. You know, my friends don't really like me. Like all of this, these are thoughts that coincide with loneliness. Right. And so in how it affects our minds, how it makes us so vigilant for social threats, it Contributes to all types of health problems, mental and physical. So putting our body in a state of inflammation like our, our stress processes are consistently active. If we're chronically lonely, actually our sleep is also disturbed because we engage in what's called microwakes, where we wake up for a millisecond to kind of scan around and then back to sleep. Right. And so being in this chronic stress state, which is both a mental and a physical experience, sort of explains why loneliness is just so toxic for our bodies and our well being over time. In contrast, when we're connected to people, we release oxytocin, which is a chemical hormone that makes us feel really good, that makes us better at continuing to connect with others, makes us more trusting and more generous, according to the research. But it also does double duty. Researchers also call that hormone a fountain of youth. So inherent to what I'm saying is the idea that unfortunately, when you're lonely, there's no time that's more difficult to connect with people. And when you're well connected, there's no time that it's easier physiologically to connect with people. So our body kind of sabotaging us a little bit and makes things really difficult.

I was going to say there was parts of what you were describing that sounded like it explained a lot of what's been happening in the political landscape. Just people isolated and sort of afraid and angry at other people, you know, and not wanting to be open. But we, we don't need to go there necessarily. But I think that it is really interesting to hear what you're saying because I think in some ways you're, you're pointing to and sort of validating that it is hard when you're feeling lonely to actually make friends. Because I think that is a very real challenge that I've heard a lot of people talk about. You know, is they maybe they've been in a marriage for a few years or, or a couple decades, and that person has been their sole person and they haven't made friends in a very long time and they're deeply alone, but they don't know how to sort of get out there and, and start that process. One of the things before we sort of move into the, the tactical aspect of it, because I can hear my audience sort of, okay, well how, how do we do this? How do I build really good, meaningful friendships? Right? I can, I can hear the like, rational minds kicking in. I do want to just pause for a moment and talk a little bit about this notion of how our attachment styles play into how we build friendships. And I know that that's maybe a very big topic that we probably could have spent the entire episode on, but I would love for you to just speak a little bit to how attachment plays into us building. And maybe not attachment styles necessarily, but how our sense of attachment and how we attach plays into us building friendships.

Yeah. So our previous relationship, starting with our parents or our caregivers, and there's also a genetic component to this too. They give us a certain template for how people will treat us throughout life. And the thing about this template, like this set of assumptions about how other people will treat us is that it is a self fulfilling prophecy in some ways. Like this, this template sort of recreates itself, reinforces itself. So, so what do I mean by that? Right. Anxiously attach people. They've learned through their relationships that people will reject or abandon them. So they tend to cling very close to people, try to form relationships very quickly, perceive rejection even when it's not there. And they're high in something called rejection sensitivity, which means that you perceive rejection even if it's ambiguous. Like your friend was hangry and you think they hate you instead of they're hangry. And then they tend to be more rejecting. They become cold and withdrawn because they're taking things so personally. And then people reject them back. Right. So that in that way it's, it's kind of explains how this is a self fulfilling prophecy because whatever we believe about the world triggers behaviors in us that cause that belief about the world to become true. I think you're going to reject me, I'm going to reject you first, then you're going to reject me back. Right. Whereas avoidantly attached people, their template kind of says other people can't be trusted and I'm in this world alone. And so the avoidantly attached, they don't really invest in friendship, they ghost on. Their friends out of sight is out of mind. They think that you should be self reliant. They're sort of out of touch with their emotions. And when other people are vulnerable, they're kind of very threatened and uncomfortable with it. So they struggle with intimacy a lot. And then in the same way, you know, if you think nobody can be trusted, right. Even when other people are trustworthy, if they slip up once, which is natural or normal because we're human, then they're like, well, look at that, nobody can be trusted all along. Like it's just a confirmation bias that's happening. But then securely attached people, they have had past relationships that have been healthy and validating and have taught them that they can go out into the world and trust people and they can, they can be intimate with people and people will receive it well and they'll develop and deepen their relationships. So I kind of call them the super friends because research finds that they're better at initiating friendships, less likely to dissolve friendships, better at handling conflict in friendships. And yeah, later on I'll share one of their. The keys to becoming more secure that also really helps us make friends.

Nice. Well, I mean that one sounds pretty important.

I was going to say, I was just jokingly. 20 year old me felt attacked when you were talking about the avoidance style.

I was like, oh, that sounds very familiar with how I operated in relationships. Out of sight, out of mind. Yeah, that seems right. I mean it's interesting because I have had to work very hard to develop good friendships in my life, but now I'm lucky to have a huge group of men that I have in my life that, you know, every time I talk to them it's like, love you man, talk to you soon. You know, every time I see them there's a hug in place, you know, and that just has become the standard. And it's interesting because I remember I led a men's weekend years ago and one of the guys that was co facilitating with me was a close friend of mine and the some of the men that were coming to the weekend were showing up and he walked in to come and co facilitate with me. And I walked over, I gave him a big hug and I said, man, so good to see you. Like love you. Have you been. And we're having this conversation and when the, when the weekend started, one of the men said, you know, it was really confronting for me to see the two of you just express openly care for one another. And he said, I realized that I actually never got that growing up. Like my dad never told me he loved me, he never hugged me, I never got any of that. And I really felt this like deep sadness within me when I saw the two of you doing that. Because it's what I've always wanted with some other man in my life. And it was such a potent reminder of how a lot of us, men and women alike, have just lacked that quality of care and closeness and intimacy and it's maybe not second nature, you know, and that friendships, while we might crave them, sometimes there's risk involved, you know, the risk of, of being known, of being seen, of being understood, of being open and real and authentic. And I was Hoping to just pause there and talk about twofold, the real value of authenticity within a relationship and what it looks like. And then what are the real risks of a depth oriented friendship?

Yeah, these are good questions. So in terms of the risk versus reward, I think there's a theory that really gets at this idea really well, it's called risk regulation theory. And the idea behind the theory is that there is sometimes a tension between protecting ourselves and contributing to our relationships. Right. The things that we often do to protect ourselves. I'm not reaching out, I'm not going to be loving, I'm not going to be vulnerable, I'm not going to be generous. Right. Because I don't, I mean that protects me. I'm not going to experience betrayal. Right. I'm not going to be rejected if I, if I keep to myself in some way. So you know, avoidantly attached people anxiously attached to. Right. They tend to be in the self protection place. Whereas pro relationship acts like I'm going to tell you I love you, I'm going to reach out, I'm going to be generous with you, I'm going to be vulnerable. Right. All of that makes us more vulnerable to rejection. And really I think the implications of this is that if we're stuck in self protection mode, we don't always realize it, but we're inherently harming our relationships. There's reasons to be in self protection. If it's with the wrong person, stay in self protection mode. Right. But if you're chronically in self protection mode, if you think about it more long term it's actually not self protection because if the consequences you're sacrificing your relationships and relationships are one of the most powerful predictors of our resilience, then at some point all this self protection will become self harm. Right. And so it's sort of like we need to figure out how can I make myself comfortable taking the risk. Because there's no way to form intimacy without risk. There's just no way to avoid it. But the biggest risk of all is being isolated. And so that's how I think about sort of like the risks and the rewards of friendship. I think you had asked another question though, Connor, that I'm not sure that I touched on.

I was asking about the role of authenticity in the cultivation of friendship.

Yeah, yeah. So this was hard. I had a chapter on authenticity in my book and all these scholars had defined it as like the true self. Right. And getting in touch with your true self.

And I'm like, well, very philosophical and like Mythopoetic, Right. True self. And it sounds Jungian. I'm a big. I'm a big Jungian guy. And so it definitely sounds Jungian.

Yeah, yeah. It's. It's very abstract. So I was like, well, what really is the true self? So as I delved into the research, people reported being authentic when they're around people that, like, really love them, when they didn't feel threatened or harmed by others. Right. When they felt really safe. So I came to define authenticity as who we are when we feel safe and we're not hijacked by our defense mechanisms. Right. Which it's important to mention. That's different than what. What automatically comes out of our mouth. Right. Because if I. Let's say, you know, I feel jealous. This is an example I use in the book. I feel jealous because my friend's kid got into a college my kid didn't get into. That makes me feel jealous, uncomfortable. And instead of saying that underlying emotion, I go into the defense mechanisms of saying, your kid isn't that great anyway. Right. That judgment that putting down, often it's an inauthentic way to defend ourselves against deeper feelings that lie underneath that. Right. And so being authentic is allowing yourself to experience the feelings that are underneath the defense mechanism to be in touch with what happens underneath the posturing, what happens underneath the trying to manipulate other people. What happens underneath the aggression. Right. What's the feeling that's underneath there that if you felt truly safe, you would let yourself acknowledge that feeling, acknowledge that emotion. You know, I think, Connor, you had a great example of that guy really being authentic with you and being able to say, like, oh, I felt like that, that craving for that similar form of intimacy. Right. Instead of something inauthentic, might be to make fun of you because he craves that form of intimacy and saying, what's wrong with you guys? You know, you're hugging me out here, right? Instead of acknowledging that, oh, I actually feel bad, and I crave that too. Right. And so authenticity is just being in touch with what's under the defense mechanism and more broadly, accessing greater feelings of safety in how we navigate the world, which. Which facilitate being in touch with the more vulnerable emotions that lie under the defenses.

It's so good, because I feel like it ties back into what we were talking about in terms of one of the roadblocks or barriers that a lot of men face within developing meaningful friendships, which is that inherently there is this sort of undercurrent of lacking safety, of being judged, of being criticized. As being seen a certain way. Like, I grew up in Northern Alberta in Canada, which is like the Texas of Canada, and there was a lot of that, you know, in playing hockey in high school, there's a lot of, like, oh, that's gay. Oh, that's gay. And like, that kind of stuff. And. And generally, it. It's amazing how much that shaped behavior, you know, of not opening up, of not being honest, of not talking about, like, I'm really fucking hurt from the breakup. You know, like, she cheated on me, and that. That sucked. And so I think that a lot of the friendships that I had in my youth, in my earlier days, were shaped by the lack of safety that I had in knowing that it's okay for me to be open and transparent and honest about feeling hurt or feeling betrayed or the things that were sort of going on in my life. And I could see that in my friends as well. And it wasn't until later on in, like, my later 20s, where I actually started to sort of reject that notion. And my life, not just me, but my entire life on every level, has changed because of that in many, many ways. And so I think there's just a really. I'm just reaffirming, I think, what you're saying through personal story, that the authenticity piece is really connected to that safety, you know, that it's a huge, huge piece. And I think now I make a very conscious effort with every single man that I connect with to just have some level of safety of, like, whatever you're going to say to me is not too much. I'm not going to judge you for it, and I'm not going to make fun of you for it. And generally, my friends and I have. Have pretty good. You know, we still barb each other once in a while and still, you know, jab each other, because that's just. That's in our nature and that's a part of it. But they're still. How do I want to say this? Like, it's okay for us, one of us is to, like, joke and be like, actually, that. That was too far. You know, I felt like too much. I didn't like that. Or that hurt. And. And we'll. And we'll say that. And I think that it's wonderful because there's a freedom in our ability to express ourselves. So I just wanted to reinforce that. And now I do need to move this conversation into the tactical part of it, because now I know my listeners are like, okay, give us the goods. How do we become the Navy Seal of friendship creators.

Oh my gosh, Connor, what you just said. Oh, it just blew my mind because here I was feeling like, you know, from the research, men's friendship problems are vulnerability problems. But you're right, they're actually safety problems. Like safety is what we need to be vulnerable. Like if we go a layer deeper than the vulnerability issue, it's the safety issue. Like yes, yes, yes, yes. You're really expanding my thinking here. So, yeah, thank you so much for sharing that story. Oh, that's so good. Okay, so how do we make friends? Funny enough if it's kind of related to this theme of safety, right? Because if again, if we feel unsafe, we're in self protection, we're not in pro relationship. So how do we get out of self protection to pro relationship mode and secure people? We can, we can learn from them, right? So securely attached people. I read this study, it was about kids reading this story in a metaway meadow way that these kids read the story about. You know, you're in the school cafeteria, your friend comes up behind you and drops milk on your shoulder. How do you interpret it? And the insecurely attached kids were like, he's out to get me, he's out to humiliate me. I'm gonna put milk right back onto him. Whereas the securely attached kids are like, oh, it was an accident, you know, he's a little clumsy, that's okay. And so you see fundamentally a difference in the interpretation system where secure people assume that people like them. And this is such a powerful assumption for friendship because I think one of the biggest barriers to making friends is we're so afraid of rejection, but rejection is less likely to happen than you think. So this is based on research on something called the liking gap that finds that when strangers interact and predict how much do I think the other person likes me, we all underestimate how much people like us. And the more self critical we are, the more pronounced the underestimation is. So people are less likely to reject you than you think they are, right? So if you go through the world assuming people like you, it's really going to help you initiate new friendships. But not only that, when researchers had people think that based on their personality profiles, they'd go into this group and the group would accept them. This was a lie, by the way. What they found is that people became warmer, friendlier, more open. And so it became a sort of self fulfilling prophecy. Just like I spoke about how the anxiously attached people fear rejection. So they come off as very rejecting people that are secure and assume people are going to like them, they actually become more likable, warm, accepting, friendly, which facilitates their ability to initiate new friendships.

So there's a little bit of, like, how. So, okay, if you're the person that is anxious or you're a little avoidant or you're worried about that rejection, is it like, fake it till you make it, like, fake that you think that people are going to like you? Or is it something that you have to practice? Or is it something that you start to maybe shift the lens of looking for where people aren't liking you to shifting towards seeing where they are? Because I think we have that confirmation bias sometimes towards our insecurities. Right. Where we're, like, reinforcing them. How do we begin to work on that part?

Yeah. So how do we make this assumption? Great question. So Rick Hansen, he's a psychologist. He has this whole framework on what he calls taking in the good, which is like savoring positive experiences because our brain automatically does the opposite, right? And so the idea here is that our brain is automatically attunes to the negative. And that if we can really pay attention to the positive, then eventually what is state becomes trait, what he says, which means the more we pay attention to the positive, the more our brain will automatically start scanning for the positive. So in his model, he recommends that when you have these positive moments of safety, begin to focus on them. Enhance them. Focus on it until it stirs a feeling in your body. Because when our feelings are stirred, we're releasing dopamine, norepinephrine, that leads to the neural change. That's what he argues, right? So focus on that positive experience until you feel something. You feel joy, you feel appreciation, you feel awe, right? It may take 30 seconds or a minute. And then he taught. He talks about absorbing the experience. Picture that positivity, that those feelings really sinking into your body. Picture that positive experience sinking deep into your body. It's his heel framework. Have a good experience, enhance it, absorb it. Right? And the L, which I won't get into because it's not as related. So I think we can apply this framework to moments of social safety. You know, when someone smiles at me, being able to acknowledge it and register it and take it in and feel the warmth between behind that smile, right? Someone, like, stops the car for me when I'm crossing the street. Someone holds the door for me. Someone is interested in talking to me. Someone seems engaged in the conversation, right? They're leaning in, like all. There's so many tiny moments that we get throughout the day of social safety, and yet we tend to focus on the one moment in the last month where we were socially unsafe. So beginning to reverse that is really going to help us begin to assume more that people like us.

Yeah. So the assumption of positive intent sounds like is important, and it also sounds like a little bit of rewiring and reprogramming what's there. I remember I had a. A neuroscientist on years and years ago named Bo Lotto. And I'll never forget, he said, you know, our brains are a pattern recognition machine, and they're pattern recognition machines that are trying to keep us safe. That's one of their primary functions, which is why we have this sort of predilection towards seeing what might be going wrong within our relationships and within the world around us. And so it almost sounds like part of what you're saying, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but it almost sounds like what you're saying is that we have to work actively, actively to start to view what's going right. To start to see where we are safe and to start to create that safety for ourselves. And then to take the risk. Right. To say, like, I'm going to risk having this conversation or opening up or, you know, reaching out or texting, you know, texting my buddy and checking in or, you know, sharing something that's. That feels risky. So is all that accurate or what would you add to that?

Yeah, I would absolutely say so. Like, if we're going to take a risk, we have to be able to not only feel like the risk is a little less risky. Right. To take a little bit of the teeth out of the risk, but also understand, I think some people. So there's this. I'll go into this phenomenon in psychology called the mere exposure effect, which is the idea that the more we see someone, the more they're familiar to us, the more that we will like them. And it's based off of research. When, when these researchers planted women in a psychology lecture, none of the students remembered the woman as a big psychology lecture, but they like the woman who showed up for the Most classes about 20% more than the woman that didn't show up for any. So this is completely unconscious. We like people that are familiar to us. What are the implications of this? You know, I'd say people, if you want to make friends, join something repeated over time. But also that at first, when you first join this group, expect that it's going to be uncomfortable, that you're going to Be weary that you're not going to trust people yet. Right. That that risk is not a sign that, oh, now I need to duck out because I feel uncomfortable. But that is part of the process of intimacy. Right. That you are going to reach that place where your exposure sets in two to three months from now if you stick with this group. Right. But only through that risk do you find what you're looking for. And so when we expect friendship and intimacy in general to be easy, and when it's not, we duck out. We are destroying intimacy itself because there is no intimacy without risk.

That's so good. I mean, what's interesting is that that actually mirrors exactly what happens within the alliance. Right. Which is like this membership where men come in. And it's so interesting because the highest dropout rate is in the first four to six weeks. And so guys will get in there and it's like, you know, there's very real conversations happening in the group. There's very real conversations and connections happening for the other men that are on the teams. And there's sort of this risk that I think that they're faced with. And it's like, I don't know if I want to do this. And so it's very interesting to see that happening because it's like the first month or two where I think it's very, very confronting. So, okay, maybe just like, can I ask you two or three quick questions and then we'll. We'll have to wrap up.

Sure.

Where would you say are the best places, like, logistically, if we want to make new friends, where should we go? Because I get asked this question all the time, where do I meet new friends?

I feel like this is a little bit of a cop out, but just doing a hobby that you have in community with people is key because people that do hobbies in community are very open to friendship. And one key of making friends is finding other people that are open to friendship. Right. They're not doing it alone. They're doing it around other people because they like that hobby, but they also probably want to meet you. So that's one big thing I suggest. The other thing that I suggest for people is to reconnect with people from their path. Because one of the reasons that we end friendship is usually because nobody's put in the effort, rather than because we're incompatible. And research finds that people are happier to receive that reconnection text than we assume and that we have more trust starting out when we reconnect with someone from our past. So the Relationship can move more quickly. So those are two things I would suggest for people.

Love that. I love that. I always say, go to where you would want to meet yourself. Right? Like, that's the. That's like, go to where you would want to meet yourself. Right. If you want. I think that's where a lot of guys get into, like, mixed martial arts, Brazilian jiu jitsu, you know, it seems to be a big one these days. Okay. And then keys to the beginning of a friendship, because I think what, interestingly enough, this conversation came up today on a group call that I led with a bunch of men was this sort of fear of being too much or overwhelming the other person in the beginning. You know, do I. Do I just ask the guy to, like, go grab a coffee? You know, do I. Do I say I want to hang out? Like, what are some of the simple tips that you can give people when you're starting off and nurturing that friendship? To not be come across as overbearing or too much or anything like that?

Yeah, I would say, I think in general, it's a misconception that we come off as, like, awkward or overbearing or creepy. Right. Like, most people are low in our society, so most people are like, oh, my gosh, you did the work for me. Thank you. I do want to hang out. And so I say, you know, if you're interested, like, go for it and initiate. And we think that that comes off as weird, but there's this theory that that looks at what makes us likable, and it finds that what makes us likable is liking people. So the thing that makes us likable is reaching out to people is showing interest in them. It's not creepy. People actually like it. Oh, my gosh, this person's interested in me. Oh, I feel so good about myself. Right. Like, there's another study that looked at what's the most important factor we look for in a friend. The least important was the one that I think we all think is the most important, which is being entertaining, like, funny, charismatic. The most important for men and women was people wanting to be friends with people that valued them and made them feel like they matter. And so a lot of these behaviors that we engage in that we fear comes off as weird. Like, I'm showing interest in hanging out with you, wanting to hang out with you, reaching out to check in and. And see how you're doing, following up on that thing you told me you were going to, you know, get involved in later. Like, those create intimacy. They're not weird. Like, they're very human. So I would just say don't be afraid of them.

Love it. Love it. I thank you so much for this. This is a great conversation and I feel like we could have gone in so many different directions. I was deeply curious about the history of it. I don't know if you've done more. More writing or more research on that because the history of friendship seems like a very. A very interesting topic. But if people are wanting to learn more about you, if they're wanting to pick up your book Platonic where, Where can they find you? Where should they go?

Yeah. So my New York Times bestselling book, Very excited about that. Yay. Is called Platonic how the science of attachment can help you make and keep friends. For more friendship tips, you can follow me on Instagram, Dr. Marissa Gfranco. That's D R M A R I S S A G F R A N C O. And on my website, Dr. MarissaGfranco.com you can take a quiz that assesses your strengths and weaknesses as a friend and gives you some tips. Or reach out if you want me to come speak on connection and belonging within or outside of work.

Awesome. Awesome. We'll have all the links for that in the show notes so that you can, you can just go click on that and follow along for everyone that's out there. Definitely go pick up this book. It's awesome. I've been digging in and loving it. My wife Vienna has been digging in and loving it. And so we've kind of been chatting about this a lot. And she was the one that was like, you gotta, you gotta talk to Marissa on the show. She's amazing. She was raving about you and I can, I can see why.

So amazing too.

Yeah. Thank you. Well, so thank you so much for being on. For everyone that's out there, man it forward. Share this episode with somebody that you know could use it. Maybe share it with somebody that you're wanting to deepen your friendship with. That could be a useful tool. Have a discussion about it with maybe your partner. And until next week, this is Connor Beaton signing off.

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