Figs O'Sullivan - Breaking Free Of Repeat Conflict In Relationships

Foreign.

Talks Family Man Talks Team welcome back to the show. Before I even tell you what I'm talking about today and who I'm talking with, I have to say a huge thank you to you for tuning into the show, for continuing to share the show. We have grown so much over the last few months. Every single month. We're up 10%, 12% month over month. And that is because of you. That is because you are sharing the show. You are subscribed, you are not only sharing it, but you know, you're leaving us a rating on the platforms that you're listening to. And so I just wanted to say thank you because without you, the show wouldn't grow. And the reality is that there are hundreds of thousands and millions of podcasts out there. It seems like everybody these days has a podcast. There's some funny memes about that that I'm not going to get into right now. But you know, we are in the top 100 consistently, in the top 50 consistently in Canada, United States. And so I thank you for sharing and I hope that you continue to do so. If you find an episode that you're like, damn, I love this episode, please know that it goes a long way to sharing that episode far and wide with the people that you know will enjoy it and hopefully they enjoy the show as well and they tune in. So thank you, thank you, thank you. I will continue to say thank you to you and express my gratitude. And quick note, if you have a topic, a theme, a question that you would like for me to dive into, if you have something that you're like, you know what, I would love to hear Connor dive into this topic with a very specific guest or to just hear Connor dive into this topic topic. Message me on Instagram Man Talks or email me infoantalks.com and let me know what guests you think I should have on the show. Is there somebody that you think would be great for me to interview and let me know if there's specific questions or themes or topics that you want me to get into. Okay. With that said, let me tell you about my guest today. His name is Figs o'. Sullivan. Yes, that is his real name, Figgs o', Sullivan, and yes, he is Irish. Figs was bred and emboldened in Dublin, Ireland and immigrated to Marion county in San Francisco area in 1994. He was drawn to psychotherapy and self exploration to better open, move through and heal his own emotional pain and suffering and was the last in his family to do so as his father was an experiential therapist in Ireland. His mother was a social worker and prohibition officer. Probation officer, not Prohibition. Prohibition would be very interesting. I mean, we'd be back in like the 1920s probation officer. And his sister is also a psychotherapist in the Bay Area. He has done a ton of work in immersing himself in the study of existential psychotherapy, spirituality, body oriented somatic modalities, and the therapeutic expressive arts such as drama and dance, as ways to uncage life, access inner wisdom, and build capacities for growth and transformation. And he also has a master's in counseling psychology. He has extensively studied gestalt awareness practice, emotionally focused therapy, which we talk about in this show as it pertains to relationships, as it pertains to moving through conflict. He's done imago work, collaborative couples therapy, experiential psychotherapy for couples, Gottman's work, and more. So he is educated when it comes to therapeutic modalities. And what we talk about specifically in this podcast is conflict in relationship, why it happens, why reoccurring arguments happen, how to move through those arguments, and how to look at healing modalities differently, how to understand the complexities of problems and challenges that arise in relationships from a different viewpoint. And I like his viewpoint. It's very interesting. He's also pretty damn funny, which he says so himself. So anyway, thank you so much for tuning in. Without any further delay, please welcome Figgs o'. Sullivan. All right, Figs, welcome to the Man Talk Show. How are you doing today?

Good. Thank you, Connor, for having me on.

Yeah, pleasure to have you here. And I have to ask, is Figs short for something?

It is. My. Figs is a nickname. I'll tell you. This is the. This is the joke I always pull on people. I'm terrible, right? I always tell people Figs is a nickname because my real name is too difficult to pronounce, which is John.

John. Yeah.

Yeah. So I always do that to you. People are always like, I just. You can see their brain getting all foggy like, like. But no, my real name is Fiacre. Wow. So it's an old, old Irish name that now old Irish names are back in. But like, I was born in 1971 when, you know, the Irish felt there was more shame and, like, being like, Irish culture wasn' river dance hadn't happened yet. You know, there wasn't. Which now, of course, has gone the full other way around, that it's like, oh, my God, do not show me a greasy chested man dancing ever again. But. But, you know, What? I mean, like, so Irish names weren't actually that common back then, so.

Yeah, well, it's a, It's a beautiful. It's a wonderful name. Both. I mean, both Figs and I, I don't. I, I don't know how to say the other one. Can you say.

Yeah, don't worry, Fiacre.

What does it mean?

You say it very well. Well, that's a funny one too. Of course, before the Internet, like I was always told, there was no direct English translation, so that was the line. But now you look it up on the Internet and it either means Raven or Battle King.

Oh, well, Battle King for sure.

Exactly. It depends which day you get me. Yeah, exactly. I'm going with Battle King, which, by the way, my son is on his way. He's. I've got an almost 5 year old, so he definitely seems to be on his way to become a Battle King. He seems to be his mission in life already.

Nice. Well, I have a 15 month old and his name is Code C O D E Code. And I call him Code Dragon because he's just this fierce little creature that.

Yeah.

There's no other way to describe it. He's just a fierce little dude. Okay, well, I digress. Let me ask you the question. What is tell the listeners a story about a defining moment in your life that made you who you are today.

Yeah. Well. Well, look. Well, it's interesting. I feel like I'm in a defining moment of my life right now. Like literally right now, this period of time in my life. You know, I moved to my wife's from Hawaii. We moved to Hawaii in 2020 because of a family emergency. And, you know, I wasn't sure what I was going to do with myself. Like, it was too bloody hot. It was one. All I wanted to do was sleep. And my wife signed me up for outrigger canoe paddling. But look, I. She literally signed me up. She's like, figs. You got to just stop having siestas all day long. This is ridiculous. Right? And so I literally thought she signed me up for some recreational. Like, we're going. I was going to be out on a canoe and having like a sightseeing, but I'm actually part of like a competitive outrigger canoe team. I have to paddle 15 hours a week and then I have to train another 15 hours in the. Because you're supposed to get fit to paddle, not paddle to get fit. And I'm like, I'm competing to be in boats. And like I just raced on Sunday. I'M giving it everything. I have no room, no sandbagging. No. If I don't try that hard, it won't hurt that much to not be picked. And I'm 51 years old, and I would say this is the first time in my life it's embarrassing, to be honest, that I just given, like, to, like, a physical activity, everything. I'm not giving myself a way out, and I'm scared out there. Like, like, we go out in the open ocean, right? There's racing, which is just half mile sprints, which is, you know, safe enough, but the rest of the time we're going eight miles, like, going around, like, in the ocean, riding waves. And so I have to face being terrified. I have to face not getting picked on the team. It's like a family. There's all the dynamics. I'm physically exhausted and I'm just being worked, like, in every possible way right now. And it's amazing.

I love that. I love that. That's a good defining moment. Well, we'll have to have you back on next year to. If you survived, we'll have you back on next year and hear how this. This defining moment that you're in has totally has played out. But sometimes those physical experiences can teach us a tremendous amount about who we are and, you know, face our edge, face our fears, all of those different pieces. Well, you know, listen, one of the reasons why I wanted to have you on the show is because of the work that you do, which we'll talk about in a moment. But, you know, you and your wife, I believe, do a lot of work with couples, but you specifically do work with couples. And I'm curious, I asked you this before the show, and I feel like this is probably the best place for us to start. So when couples come to work with you, what would you say is one of the biggest problems that they're coming to you for? And then what's the biggest problem that you really work with them on?

Yeah, so the biggest problem that people come to me with is that they don't realize that the problem that they're confronted with is not actually the biggest problem. It sounds weird, right? So most people think like they're going to come to me because there's like, whether it's. There's an affair, money problems, who does the housework? Where are we going to live? Why do they eat with their mouth open? I don't know. Like, you know, they think whatever, big or small, like, you know, they keep putting posters of Jennifer Lopez in their man cave. Like whatever they think the problem is, that's not actually the problem. The problem is the emotional process that's happening inside of each person individually and then that they're co creating with each other. When they are talking about that particular problem, they think that needs to be resolved. So. Yeah, so I'm always trying to help people like be inside and understand deeply what the emotional process that is happening is underneath the problem.

Okay, and so your work is specifically around eft, right? Emotionally focused therapy, is that correct?

Yeah, yeah, that's the main model I use.

Can you maybe just give some context for EFT for the listeners that may have or may have not ever heard of it?

Yeah. So the first and most important thing is a very. Look, it's a roadmap, right? And it's a relatively simple roadmap. And so the first thing we're trying to do is help two people that have got two separate narratives of what's going on. Right? And those narratives are usually some version of partner spouse number one things. Our relationship is struggling because you partner spouse of mine are limited in some way. And then so they have their story, right? And then their partner has another story, which is, thank you very much for telling me. I actually think our relationship is struggling because you don't have your act together. Right. And so they have these two separate stories. Now, interestingly enough, they're probably both right, right. You know what I mean? They're both right and they're both wrong. Right at the same time. And then the first thing I do is help those two stories, where there's smoke, there's fire, right? Like that. There's actually a lot of truth in what they're both saying. But as long as they're two separate narratives, everything's going to go really badly. So I just help them combine those two stories into one shared story.

Interesting.

So that we go from these two subjective experience into one shared systemic experience about what's going on. Because if we can do that now, the system is the problem, not me or not you. And that's actually, to be honest, like that's the revolutionary part of emotionally focused couples therapy. We're not trying to help people feel better. We're trying to help them really see and understand what's happening and then feel their feelings better. And if we do that really well, it just changes everything, Right? Like if you can help people go from, listen, I have to have my armor on when I'm talking to you because you're gonna hurt me and the other person, well, I gotta have My sneakers so I can run away very quickly if I see you move towards me, like to actually know, wait a second, we're both scaring the hell out of each other. And totally understandably, now the person can take their armor off and the person can take their sneaker off. And now the same problem is here, but they're now equipped, they have the resources to be able to come up with a solution to that problem. Right. So I don't know if I explained that very well.

No, no, no.

Okay.

Yeah, it's perfect.

Yeah. So sorry, that's the first part. And then the second part is if we can get people to both vulnerable people, we scare each other because we love each other, we call that de escalation. Then we can have the vulnerable part in both of them reach out and ask for their needs to be met. And now the other person, because they're not covered in armor, they don't have their sneakers on, they'll actually have the resource to be able to love their partner. And so they're going to get the actual love they've really longed for all along. And we do that in both directions. And then the last part of the work, that's the second part of work, right? And then the last part of work, we look back and go, oh my God, look what we did here. This is amazing. You came in, you were about to kill each other. You realize it's both of you and it's only happened because you love each other. And then you actually took turns like reaching out, asking for your needs to be met vulnerably. And you love the shit out of each other. And that's incredible. And you can do this again for the rest of your life. And then my last final part is very small. We do a three way fist bump. And then I don't mind if people do little jellyfish or big jellyfish at the end of a fist bump. And we say goodbye. Right? Sometimes that's hard for the couples when we say goodbye because they're like, no, we're keeping our time next week. And I say, listen, you don't need me anymore. And they say, figs, do not give our time away. And I say, you don't need me, leave. That can be done that moment.

Yeah, that's the aim, right, exactly.

Which by the way, that's why I like couples counseling. For me personally, like, like, it's just really defined. I'm not trying to get people dependent on me. Not that individual therapists are trying to get people dependent on them. Right. I'M trying to help them actually be able to co regulate each other and so they don't need me. Right. That's the we're all three of us are aligned look. They do not want to keep coming to see me, even though I'm unbelievably funny, but they don't want to keep coming to see me. And so I really like that all three of us are, you know, are aligned. Let's get you to a place you don't need me as soon as possible.

Yeah, it's funny as, as you were describing, the, the conflict that unfolds between people.

Right.

The partner number one, there's a problem in our relationship. It's partner number two. Partner number two, I agree. There's a problem in our relationship. The problem is you.

Exactly.

No, I'm sure no one listening to this has had that happen in their relationship. Totally. So you also integrate these other modalities. I noticed that on the site and in your work you talked about hakomi and I was wondering if you can give a little bit of context for that. Because I feel like somatic based work is wildly important and I would just love for you to contextualize that for our listener.

Yeah, well, look, I love Hakomi. I think Hakomi is the best model I've come across. And I used to live at Esalen and I've come across most of them, if not all of them. Right. But it's my favorite all encompassing model and how to meet another human being. I had a whole space for another human being. And in, in short, what you're just, you're trying to do is help contact someone where they are right now and then invite them to study what that is right now for no other reason that like your life force is happening. Like your life is actually happening right now. Right. Right in between stimulus and action. This is your life force. Your life is happening. And we want to try to help people. Like, can you notice, look, if you're sad, let's be sad right now. Let's study being sad. And then if you're willing to study being sad, then we're going to get you immersed into being sad. And now that you're immersed in being sad, we're going to listen really closely and what do we notice? It's actually like down here when we're sad and we're not trying to get rid of it, make it bigger, smaller, we're not going up in our head, we're not even trying to find meaning. Like what do you notice what does it feel like in your body? Is there a sensation and then is there color? Does it bring up an image, a memory, an impulse? And so then we just try and stay in this moment of pure experience and pure research of this present moment until meaning arises. We didn't look for. Comes to us like, we trust the organism's organicity, that most of the time, the way we're trying to get rid of feelings or we're trying to rush to the completion of feelings, it gets in the way of the process. Right. So we're trying to, like, most of the time with A Comey, we're 80% of the time, we're just trying to like, okay, just be with what is and what happens next. And then we get to this place that hopefully we realize what it is that wants to happen, what's the creative action? And then we can actually be very creative and create that missing experience for someone. Right. Like, what is it that you're really needing? And see if we could get it for you right now.

Wonderful.

Yeah. And then you come out and you. You look back and you met a process. You integrate what you learned about yourself when you went deeply down into your. Into yourself to study yourself.

Yeah. Beautiful. So one of the things that I wanted to dig in with you on is this notion and this idea of the reoccurring conflict in relationship. Because I think that a lot of couples, you know, I get messages about this all the time on Instagram. Like, we seem to have the same, you know, argument over and over and over again. And like, how do we break through that argument? And why can't we? And so when you're working with a couple and they have the same reoccurring argument in the relationship, what are some of the reasons why that reoccurring argument is happening? Like, what's going on underneath those two individuals? That that conflict continues to happen over and over again. Yeah.

So. So the mo. The reason people have the same argument over and over again, again, because it's not about the topic itself. Right. It's the deeper underlying love needs that are being touched and vulnerable experience. Right. So all of this is based on one theory, and that theory is attachment theory. And I'm sure it's come up. Right. And so basically, attachment theory is the best theory we have of what love is. And it's got the most solid body of evidence and research and all of psychological, like the study of psychology. Right. And so, in short, we are all subject to the needs of being attached, emotionally bonded from the cradle to the grave. The cradle part is really easy for people to understand. Right when you were born, if your primary attachment figure, the person that gave birth to you or whoever, they weren't there, who was going to, that you're relying on to like make sure that you lived. If they're not there, you will die. So your body, over millions of years this body has been built. The first thing you have to do is detect is there anybody there? Are they there now? Or else you'll die. Now you're a grown up and you think like, look at me, I can use my iPhone and drive my semi autonomous car. I'm no longer that little baby with this attachment mechanism. Well that's wrong. You are, you might be the best, most competent grown up at, you know, field hockey or tiddlywinks, whatever your thing is, but when it comes to love, you're still a little baby. That when it looks like your partner, your primary attachment figure, which if you're in a relationship, let's hope it's no longer your mom. If your primary attachment figure is still your mom and you're a grown up in relationship, that's a. We have to start at a different point of counseling so your listeners can reach out to me if they're grown up and they're in a primary, primary attachment figure with their mom. But anyway, so, but so look, let's assume that your primary attachment figure is your partner or spouse. Well, stuff is going to happen. Like you know, I always use this as a silly example. You get up in the morning and let's say, or your partner gets up in the morning and they see you've made one cup of coffee and that one, there's one cup of coffee made. That's enough of a trigger for them to go, I'm alone. They mightn't get it consciously I'm not important, I'm not a priority. I'm not considered right. And so they put all this emotional bonding significance, which it's true, there's no point in saying that isn't what it means. That is what it means to them. One cup of coffee, I'm not loved, I'm not a priority, I will die. That's what a big deal it is. And so what do they say to their partner? I told you how much it means to me to be considered in the morning. Now that partner that just heard that they might think I don't feel stuff, it's not a big deal, I'm okay. But that's just what they've learned to do to survive when it looks like, oh, shit, my primary attachment figure just told me I am such a disappointment that you are worthy of being rejected and you're unacceptable as a human being. So they are now in an attachment, literally existential threat. And then they. They deploy their strategies. They might attack, like their partner and criticize. They might minimize. It's not a big deal. Look, I just made one cup of coffee because it wants you to sleep. They defend themselves, protest their innocence, which the first person goes, what are you saying? You saying I shouldn't feel this way? So now they're even more scared. They're alone. They're even more scared I'm alone. So now, even when I'm hurting, and I told you I'm hurting, you tell me I shouldn't be hurting. So if they are at Detcon 2, and I think it goes down right, Detcon. So now they're at detcon1 right now. They're really alone. So they're gonna have to up the volume. They're saying, you know what? Your mother was right about you. So now they really got them. So now the second person, if they thought they were on their way to being unacceptable, now they're there. So now they're out. They're gonna leave the kitchen. I'm gonna go back to Code of Duty or whatever the hell it's called. It tells you. I don't know any video games.

Call of Duty.

Call of Duty. Thank you. Code. I got mixed at your son's name. Right. Call of Duty. Right. Okay, I'm out. Right? I can't deal with this. You're too much. Which, of course, too much is the worst trigger for someone that gets scared that they're going to be abandoned. So now they're too much. So now they're really. You're the worst spouse in the world. And the other person is like, I'm never leaving my room because you're the worst spouse in the world. Right? But I don't know if you noticed, when I played that out, every single feeling and action makes sense. And it's really sad for people, right? Cause they think they're so unique, which you are. You're very special. But every single thing that happened is completely predictable. And all that was happening is you both scared the living daylights out of each other because you're so important to each other. You poor little devils. Right? And that's that place. So. By the way, that punchline, you poor little devils. That's the first place we want a couple to live with each Other. We're not trying to resolve whether you make one cup of coffee or two cups of coffee in the morning. Right. We're actually trying to see, hey, would you look at what just happened. Happened between the two of you, and it totally makes sense to touch that your place where you don't feel considered. And I totally make sense that you got up early, you wanted to let them sleep in, you thought you'd only make one cup of coffee, and here you are being told you're the worst partner in the world. My God, this is awful for both of you. And if we can get them to live there with each other. You come here. No, you come here. That's how we make everything better.

I love the articulation of the reoccurring fight through the lens of attachment style.

And the fear of not belonging. There's also the added hilariousness that a version of that actually happened this morning with my wife. And I went downstairs early, and I went and made myself some avocado toast with some scrambled eggs, and she came downstairs with our son after. She was like, did you make me eggs? And I was like, no, you got.

Yes, that's great.

She's like, there's no eggs for me. And I was like, no. And she was like, well, I can't believe you wouldn't make me eggs. And I was like, oh, right, okay. I was like, what's happening right now? And, you know, obviously, my wife's a marriage and family therapist, and so we, you know, we have. We have some tools to be able to work through these types of things. And so, you know, thankfully. Thankfully, I was like, what's. What's happening right now? And she's like, well, I just. I guess I feel left out, you know, I.

Right.

It's like, oh, okay. And I was like, yeah, I understand. We had a quick little conversation about it, you know, and then she went and made breakfast, and I finished eating mine, and we were all good. And it wasn't like a huge. A huge thing. Sometimes it does become a thing. But, you know, for the most part, we can. When we know what's happening as you're articulating it, we can actually begin to work with it. So what are the things that we need to be aware of in those moments where our fear of not belonging, of being alone, of being abandoned or neglected, starts to arise physically?

Right. Or reject the other side of that. So in the. In the weird. So there's two sides of the coin. A wound, and usually one person is going to be more sensitive to being abandoned, neglected, not considered. And then the other person's going to be. And they go hand in hand. Like, as soon as one person is feeling more like I'm on my way or I'm already. And I'm abandoned, I'm not considered, I'm not a priority, the other person is either already there or at risk of feeling not accepted, rejected, not enough. And then the person that can feel like I'm abandoned, I'm neglected. They tend to. Not always, but they tend to blame and criticize. Now again, they tend to, like, point out, even if they do it really nicely. I noticed you're eating eggs and avocado toast and I'm not, right? You might think, look, what did I say? I didn't do blaming, criticizing. But if we really put it through a, you know, Silicon Valley hot dog, not hot dog, is this a blaming statement or not a blaming statement, Right?

You didn't make me eggs and avocado toast.

Exactly, right. So they're gonna like, exactly, exactly, exactly. So, like, this is the thing. But that's, that's just how they protest when I, it looks like I'm not loved, I protest. And then of course, the other person feels rejected. You know, it's like, oh, I'm on my way to not enoughness. And now I'm going to explain myself or I'm going to placate you. I'll criticize you back. I'll fix it. But so this is the interesting thing. Like, this is unavoidable. So one of the things, but key part of my work that is really, really hard for people to grasp at first is I'm trying to help people surrender to and accept versus change now. And it's very paradoxical. I got to whisper this next part, right? If you surrender to and accept, it will change. But if you're trying, if you keep trying to change, it won't change, right? Because as you keep trying to change, there's some denial of this essential part of yourself and, or your partner or your relationship, right? So, you know, it's just like if someone's into meditation, if you're really meditating, if you're efforting to become enlightened, you ain't going to find no enlightenment. So again, it's this weird paradoxical thing, right? So, yeah, look, your wife loves you so much that if she comes down and sees you eating eggs and avocado toast, you cruel, mean husband, right? Like, of course he's going to be upset. That's how important being considered to you is. And look, if you love your wife and if she comes down and says, no eggs for moi, like, this is the interesting thing. It's not about actually even did you resolve that? Well, that's like. People think that's actually. That's. Oh, look how good we are. It didn't turn into a fight. Sure, it's not bad. But it's actually even more important to understand. Oh, my God. The thought of you being disappointed because of something I did. I had a moment that I had a little contraction, and that actually is really scary for me because you being happy with me means so much to me. So this is the funny thing. People can resolve fights and, like, and they can come in to see me and they're all excited figs. We resolved a fight. Like, you know, we used to, you know, go crazy. One of us was be in jail. The other person would be halfway to join the French Foreign Legion by now. And I'm. I am happy for them, but if it's not through this fundamental. Oh, my God. I really get how much we mean to each other and how much we get scared in these moments, then it's not sustainable anyway. Yeah. Can you.

No, but can you just pull on that thread a little bit more and elaborate on why that's so relevant and so important?

Yeah. Well, because again, you're kind of accepting the essence of what love means. Right. Like, everything comes back to how important we are to each other. The reason I would come down the stairs and you're like, you know, licking the avocado off the toast, which Connor's disgusting. Like, eat like a grownup. Right. You know what I mean? The reason. The reason I had that moment of why not me Is because being considered by you means so much to me. It's not actually whether it's actually right or wrong that avocado toast and eggs are made for another human being. It's because being considered by you means so much. That's how much I love you now. So that's the we want. It's literally an equation. It's just math. You are so important to me. And my sensitivity in life is, am I considered by you important to me? I feel not considered. Equals. I feel like a moment of, do I matter to you? I'm in pain. Oh, my God. I really love you. And this is the other way around. You tell me. I'm disappointed. Are you? I, like, it's like, oh, my. Like, whoa. No. What? Oh, I didn't know you would have expected, like, whatever it is, I respond. The key Is I saw the moment of feeling bad inside when it looks like the person that's most important to me may be disappointed in me, because that's how much your approval and you being happy with me means to me. Ultimately, we want people, as I always say, like, when people get in a fight with each other, right, they should want to go to 711 and buy the most expensive bottle of champagne there, right? Because they realize, oh, my God, look what just happened between us. You know why that happened? Because we love each other so much, and we momentarily got scared that the other person wasn't there for us. Us. So the story. This is what I was saying. We're building narrative that both people live in, that both people make sense, and it's okay to be their vulnerable selves, and they're not trying to get rid of their vulnerable selves. Most of the time, people are trying to get rid of their vulnerable selves. Let's get to a place that we don't get triggered like this by each other. And I say, no, you better hope you never stop getting triggered like this by. Let's hope. Your wife always. When she comes down the stairs and sees you eating avocado toast, she's like. Like, what about me? Right. That's a good sign. And let's hope when she says that to you, you always have a moment of, well, I will. Well, do you want a sandwich? Right. Because the reason you're doing that is because, oh, no, it looks like the person that is most important to me might be unhappy with me. And that really matters. Right? So it seems so basic, but if a couple lives within that story, that's what's happening. Like, even though they'll temporarily forget it, you know, and they'll have a tough moment with each other and they can find their way back to that world. That way of framing what we mean to each other, they can face anything together.

Yeah. I mean, I think what I hear you saying is the caring about the other person is the essence. And when that is lost between the two people, you know, it's like, I don't even care that you're upset about this. Then it's almost a harder go, because there's such a detachment to the other person that it's hard to reconcile.

Yeah, true. And, like, we're getting a little. I hope I'm not getting too technical, but it's not just caring about the other person. It's like, I do care. And this is so weird. It's so counterintuitive for people. It's not just that I care about you. I care about you because if you were unhappy with me, I would be. I'm in pain.

Yeah.

That's how important you are. So it's not just like. So this is the thing. It's not just like people have this thing. No. You're supposed to make avocado toast for other people because you're supposed to care and consider them or. Well, you're not supposed to be upset and disappointed with people that are doing their best, right? No, it's not like that. So this same bit of wisdom is so easily twisted into just making the cycle worse. No, listen, I really care about having avocado toast when you're having avocado toast, because being included with you is everything. It's everything. I hurt when I'm not included with you, because you and I being a team, this is the baseline of my existence. And the other way around.

And I make exceptional avocado toast in scrambled eggs.

There is that.

There's also that. Yeah, right.

There is also that. Right. You know, you've been living in New York City, and you've become obsessed with avocado toast. We can't hold it against you, connoisseur.

You know, after spending some time in Los Angeles, I mean, it's just, you know, it gets in your veins.

Exactly. All of the top avocado toast cities. But. But. And look the other way around is the biggest takeaway. And I know this is such a small, silly example, like, if I was you, you know, it's easier to get it in bigger things is like, oh, my God. The thought that you could have felt disappointed or let down or not considered by me having avocado toast, like, I actually can access where that hurts. That's scary for me, because you being happy with me really matters. Right? Really matters. Those two people, and they connected to that together, like, wow, damn, we love each other. That. That now they're ready to face whatever comes next.

Yeah. Well, well said. There's a couple different ways that I kind of want to take this conversation now, but I feel like maybe towards intimacy is a. Is a good way to go. I was going to initially inquire about when is when is too far gone. Far gone. Because I think I have a lot of people that sort of ask the question of, you know, how to know when to go, how to know when to continue to work on it, how to know when it's, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And so I don't know if you want to touch on that or move into.

No, I'm very happy to talk about that.

It's a big, It's a big question and I think I'm curious to get your perspective.

Well, so here's the short of it. Have you ever really, really worked with someone that actually knows what they're doing on trying to see the systemic view? Like what is. So let's say the two of you and then a third person, the three of you being like scientists, to go like, wait a second, what is it that's actually happening between us when we fight? What has been happening for the last year, 10 years? What was it then, what is it now? What is the way? You know, I'm just using the copies of the Kafika. Only one copy. It touches the knot. Like I'm not loved. I criticize you criticize. It makes you feel not enough. You defend yourself. And then really seeing it like, holy shit, we both make sense and what happens between us makes sense. And then someone that then holds you in that place because that's that place. We're not going to try and make it better. You really see it. And you could have empathy and compassion for both people. Now if you live there now, let's decide from there. Is this too far gone or not? Because that's a threshold. In a way, you could say I bring people to this emotional experience of empathy and compassion for self. Three entities, Self, the other person, and then both of you together and then we live there now. It'll be an organic decision. Are you going to fall into each other's arms? Oh my God, I get it now in a way I never did before and I love to help hell out of you. Both of us. Or are you going to fall the other way? Oh my God, it's so sad that we see what happened and it's too much. I don't want to keep going. But let's make that decision at that deep emotional threshold, not this cognitive where you're going back and forth. Are we going to try and make it work? Not make it work. That's not the place where the answer comes from.

Yeah, it's, you know, it's interesting because I, so I grew up in northern Alberta and. In northern Alberta and Canada, the idea was if a relationship needs therapy, then it's probably already too far gone.

Right.

You know, and I, so I sort of came from that old school mentality that like if the relationship needs therapy, it's already fucked. And so you should probably just go and move on from there. And so I'M actually going to just, I'm not going to ask you to steel man. The argument against that. What is the, what's the argument against that? If the relationship could use therapy or could use a third party or a moderator that is not too far gone, it might be a sign of something more meaningful and more meaningful for you specifically and maybe even for the relationship.

You kind of said it like we live in a world where the story of how you're supposed to feel in relationship, the story of how you're supposed to be yourself, the story of how your partner is supposed to be is so fucked and insane, right? That I would say it's actually essential that you find someone or some process that helps you see the insanity, right? You're not like, again, let's say everything I said is true. That means if you love each other, you're definitely going to scare the shit out of each other. And when people are scared, they fight Flight, freeze, placate. And when you're on the receiving end of someone else's fight flight, freeze placate, you're going to freak out and you're going to return fight, flight, freeze, placate. Some version, you know, you're going to say, no, I'm not fight fright freezing. I just like video games, right? Or like I'm not blaming, I'm just helping them realize what they should do, right? Like, dude, like you're like people can't see the insanity they're in without someone outside the system, without someone with a drone's eye view. Would you look at what you guys are co creating? And this is madness. And your story about what you're supposed to do to make it better matter. And your story about how the other person's supposed to be, how you're supposed to be, it's all wrong. So this is the crazy thing when you, when people actually first hear this stuff, like in a session, they can literally see their bodies just relax. Oh my God. Thank God there's not something wrong with us. This is so sad. Most people are living in a world that they think there's something wrong with them, there's something around their partner, there's something wrong with us. And it's the furthest thing from the truth, right? So it's insanity, right? It's insanity. It's crazy, right?

Well, I think, I think that most of us haven't been taught how to. Most of us haven't grown up in environments or families or systems as you'd say, with really strong stable attachment styles.

You're Right. Yeah, exactly. And like everybody, when their attachment needs aren't met, they go into strategy or action to protest. Right? So. So that's usually what we've seen. Look, the most powerful thing you can show your kids is not that you're just loving and kind all the time, which is everybody's trying to get to, is that you can show your kids, mom and dad or my two parents. Right. You know, the two people that are really important to me in my life, that they can go from connection to disconnection and repair and back to connection again. The most powerful thing you can do as a human being is you can go from disconnection back to the connection again. But most people are obsessed with staying in connection. That's not actually what the work is. If you love each other, you're gonna get disconnected because you're so important to each other. You're gonna scare each other. So now that's when the work actually begins. The work actually begins as. How do we get back into connection? Can I give me and you a chance to repair even though I just got scared and I just scared you? Right?

Yeah. And can I learn how to repair? Because I may not have had a chance to do that in my childhood.

Well, you definitely. Yeah. That's the beauty about relationship, is you're almost guaranteed to get into a place that I just got hurt by this person that means so much to me, and I don't want to give me and them a chance to repair again. Whether that's for five minutes, five hours, five weeks, weeks, the rest of your life, you're going to have this growth opportunity. It's not actually there's a problem in your relationship. It was guaranteed to happen. And now are you going to go into strategy? I'm going to blame, criticize, shut down, pull away, protect myself. Or are you going to go on a bear hunt and go right through the middle of the river? Right. No way over it. No way under it. Ah, damn. We got to go through it.

So what are you. What are some of those key components? I know you've been alluding to them and talking about them along this, but what are some of those key components for a couple who is in the repair process, what does repair look like after conflict?

Well, the order of things matters. Right? So let me just, like, obviously these are all mushed up into one, but let's just say, conceptually, just very simply, bullet points. Right. And this is something you just have to practice. And we have to do it over and over again. Right. One, it's both of us. It's not a me or you problem. It's both of us.

Why are both of us in this difficult moment? We're both hurting. Why are we both hurting? Because we frigging mean so much to each other. What do I do when I'm hurting? Because I'm disconnected to you. I protest in a way that's. Even though it makes logical sense, the way I protest, it really hurts you. So you're really hurting because I'm not there for you and you logically protest, right? You pull away from me, you blame me. Well, shit, the way you logically protest really hurts me. Ah, for flip's sake, would you look at what we're both doing Then from that. Now we're two de escalated people. I'm just A little. A second ago I was Medusa. A second ago you were just a cold faced rot. Now we're two little field mice that are just both hurting because we lost each other. Now we can be a comfort and a resource to the little vulnerable ones inside of each other.

Other.

Where did you get hurt during that disconnection? Right here. How about you? Yeah, right here on my elbow. Come here. Let me snuggle you up. That was a scary fight, wasn't it? Looked like we weren't there for each other. Temporarily. Yeah. Everything's good again. But here's the thing. It's a temporary place because you're still that important to each other. Tomorrow you'll go to ice cream on your own because you had an hour off and you'll come back to the house with your favorite. One cone of coffee. Coffee, right. And your wife's gonna be like, connor, did we just talk about this with the eggs yesterday? Like, what the hell, right? We're just gonna have to go through it again and again and again, but that's it.

No, I appreciate that. I appreciate that because I think it gives some context and some direction for what that repair process can look like. So let's. Let's transition. We'll close off this conversation with intimacy and maintaining intimacy. And what for you are. I don't want to necessarily talk problems, although I'm sure that that will maybe come up. But what for you are some of the foundational tenets of really healthy, vibrant intimacy within the context of a relationship.

Okay. Yeah. So here's the way. Look, I'm what would be called an emotion first sex, second therapist. Right? Some people are like, you know, like, let's resolve the sexual things that are going on and that'll touch on the emotional stuff. And I'm more. If we resolve the emotional stuff, we create emotional safety. That's the platform on which we can then have a healthy sex life, like intimate sex life with each other. And so from this perspective then that I kind of approach it all the same things are true, but magnified often for sex, if you're likely to feel I'm not as special to you, I'm not prioritized, I'm not not wanted in regular emotional life, you'll probably feel that 10x with sex, if you're likely to feel not enough unacceptable, oh shit, maybe I'm not going to perform to a point that my partner desires. You'll likely feel that 10x with sex because people wrap sex and a lot of emotional bonding significance. Now, by the way, it's also true that people flip the person that why won't you talk to me? Come like, like snuggle me, like emotionally is the person that is like, oh, I think I have a headache with sex. Right. They. So anyway, so you can't. People can flip. Like you can literally be in an inverse cycle. The emotional cycle and the sexual cycle are inversed. But let's not get too complicated on that right now. But. So then here's the way we would approach how to have a good sex life. If all that is true, we want to first create a container, a space where the person inside the relationship that could feel abandoned could be an abandoned person. I don't feel wanted. And we're not going to try and make it better. I'm actually going to. Can we create a space where someone that doesn't feel wanted could show up for sexual intimacy as a not wanted person? Most people are trying to get rid of the not wanted one. And then I can show up for sex. No. Well, let's actually start showing up for sex as a not wanted person. And then who's going to meet you in this container? The one that. Well, I'm worried that if I don't want you enough, you're going to be disappointed. So the two people we eventually want to have sex with each other are not, I always say, my wife and I, when we met, my sexy self got together with my wife's sexy self. You know, we met at Esalen Naked Hot Tubs Dance center tonight. Massages over the ocean. Right. But that's not who has sex now. We're two really vulnerable people. I'm like, oh God, I don't think I want it as much as you would want me. Like you want me to want you. And they're like, oh God, I'm really worried that like I'm just never going to be like inspiring to you anymore. Well, could we have sex as those two really vulnerable, scared people? How do we create a safe container that they're allowed be here when we do what I refer to as sexy time? Right, yeah. So that's, that's the approach.

Yeah. So creating, creating a conversation, creating a container for the parts that would normally not be allowed into the bedroom to enter the bedroom and create intimacy through that.

Exactly. And that's a, that's a, I'm describing it very simply right now, but that's usually a pretty deep emotional process and usually a same thing. It's a rewiring because, you know, I don't know about you, but as a man, like, you know, I really, I thought had to be seductive. Like I spent so much of my life not being a vulnerable person around sex. I was like, like, I still remember, like in my God, I said late 30s, the first, like some woman that I, you know, freaking doing that weird like Persona thing with said, you know, you don't have to talk like that. Right. I still remember to this day, it's like, wow, yeah. Like what is this person that I become to mask the scared one inside me, the vulnerable one around sex? Right. So, so what? So eventually all long term, the relationships, here's the assumption, all long term relationships are going to have to make the transition from inspiration and performance based sexual intimacy to really vulnerable, heart centered sexual intimacy. Right. Layoff. Because, you know, we're not gonna, you're not gonna have these moments where I come into the kitchen, I see you eating avocado toast and I'm like, oh, hello. I love the way you eat that toast. Licking the avocado up and you're like, oh yeah, sweetie, I'm feeling a little hot under the collar myself right now. Like the chances, like, you know what I mean? Parents, kids, working, like, it's kind of crazy that again that people think we're gonna have this inspiration based sexual relationship for the rest of our lives.

Right.

So anyway, so that's the idea. Let's create a safe container where two vulnerable people can show up and we're going to be really intentional about it.

Beauty. I love that. I feel like that's a good place for us to put a pin in the conversation and maybe pick up for round two at some point in the future.

Yeah, yeah, it was really fun. Thank you.

I feel like that would be a good one for everyone. That's out there. Tuning in. You can go to therapy with figs.com we'll have the links for that in the show. Notes for you to check out more of his work. Work figs. Any other places, spaces that you want to let people know about your work where they can follow you?

Yeah, the main place, actually where you can find me is@empathy.com. empathy with an I on the end, not a Y at the end. I couldn't afford empathy with a Y on the n dot com, so I had to go with empathy with an I on the n dot com. But. But, yeah, that's the main place. And we have. I built a web app for couples and we've a pod. My wife and I do a podcast, Come Here to Me podcast, where we talk about our own relationship and even share our own couples therapy sessions. And then we provide couples therapy and individual therapy. We've got right now, I think it's 25 therapists that I and my wife train. And we're model loyal. But. Yeah, but. So that's it. Empathy.com. thank you.

Outstanding. Yeah, I appreciate it. Appreciate you coming on the show. For everyone that's out there, this might be a good episode to listen to with your partner if you're in a relationship or a good one to bookmark to listen in the future with a future partner. So. So thanks for tuning in. Don't forget to share the episode. And until next week, this is Connor Beaton signing off.