Jack Donovan - The Way Of Men

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Team. Welcome back to the Manitox Show. I'm Connor Beaton, and joining me today is somebody that I've wanted to have on the show for quite a while, Jack Donovan. He is fascinating character, lived a fascinating life. He's an incredible writer, done a lot of writing on men, masculinity.

His work has really resonated with a.

Lot of men, and for some people, he's a little controversial. We don't necessarily talk about why or dig into any of the trenches on that because I wanted to keep the conversation about his work and about myth and men. So he has been writing and speaking about masculinity, masculine philosophy and spirituality for over a decade. His foundational book, the Way of Men, has sold over 100,000 copies worldwide and has been translated into French, German, Portuguese, Spanish, and Polish. His most recent book, Fire in the.

Dark, which we talk about a little bit, which I've read, I've actually read.

Most of his books, I think all.

Of his books actually, because I've been.

Interested in the perspective that he comes at men and masculinity from, because it.

Resonates with a lot of guys.

So Fire in the Dark presents a primal system of masculine roles and shows how those roles have been repeated again and again throughout history of myth and religion. Jack is an occasional speaker and often appears on podcasts to discuss masculinity and the challenges faced by men who want to live masculine lives in the 21st century. So today, in this episode, we talk about a few things.

I just asked Jack about a few.

Of his concepts from Jeff different books. So we talk about defining masculinity from a mythological perspective. We talk about some of the challenges that men face and the arc that the masculine archetype will face within myth. And we talk a little bit about the role of the father.

Towards the end of the show, the.

Role of the father, again, from a mythological standpoint and what it can teach us, and a lot of conversation about challenges that men are facing now and what can myth teach us about how to face those challenges and obstacles. So I hope that you bring an open mind, open heart to this conversation because I really enjoyed interviewing Jack and I know that he has a lot of wisdom and insight to bring, and I like the philosophical mythological lens. If you've been listening to my podcast, you probably know that that's the kind of stuff that I geek out on. So let me know what you think about this episode. DM me man talks on Instagram. Feel free to share this episode. Thank you to everyone that has been doing so again month after month lately. We are just expanding and growing. And expansion and growth in the podcasting world is a result of two things, community and content. And so I've really been trying to curate more convers.

Based on the guests. The topics that you have told me are important to you, so feel free to reach out again mantalks on Instagram or email me infoantalks ca or.com and let me know what kind of topic, what kind of question you want me to dig into and if there's certain guests that you want me to have on the show, because it goes a long way to helping the community grow.

And.

And again, thank you so, so much for sharing the podcast and leaving a review on whatever platform you're listening to us on. So if you have 60 seconds today, maybe even 30, head on over to itunes, to Apple Music or Apple Podcasts, and leave us a rating and a review. It goes a long, long way to helping us rank amongst the millions and millions of podcasts that are out there. But thanks to you, we are consistently in the top 100 in America and in Canada, and sometimes we're even in the top 50. With all that said, with all that gratitude and appreciation, I hope you thoroughly enjoy this conversation. And please welcome Mr. Jack Donovan.

All right, Jack, welcome to the show. How are you doing today?

I'm doing all right.

Good, man. It sounds like you're. You're in the mix right now. You're about to move, which is. I mean, I just went through that, and it's quite the undertaking. How are you doing with all that?

Oh, for sure. Yeah. Just a month or two ago, I decided to move to Arizona. So I've been going through all the hassle of getting that set up and running a house out there and all that. So, yeah, I leave in a couple days. So I'm doing this for my kitchen. Normally I have a set, and it's. It's, you know, it looks a little different, but this is. This is what I got right now.

Fair enough. I'm. I'm with you on that front, and.

Yeah.

And. Yeah.

All right.

Well, it's an honor to connect with you. And, you know, I've read all your books, and I love your work, and I think that you have a lot of value and insight to offer people, individuals, especially men. But I want to start off today, as I start off with every guest, which is tell us a story about a defining moment in your life that made you who you are today.

Well, I think the biggest defining Moment in my life really is writing and publishing the Way of Men. Because that actually changed the trajectory of my life to a certain extent. I had written another book before, actually two, and tried to answer the question, what is masculinity? And it was the right book at the right time, and I put a lot of work into it. I actually put out the 10th anniversary hardcover of it this year. And so I had to go back through. And I'm like, wow, there are a lot of footnotes in this. I did a lot of research for that book. You know, at the time, I mean, I was a truck driver. I was driving the delivery truck. And then I went to tattoo school after I started to make a little bit of money off the book. And now I've been a professional author and, I guess, businessman for the past maybe like six, eight years. So that changed my whole trajectory and actually gave me a position in a bigger space to talk about masculinity. And now, 10 years on, we're in a place where that book has influenced people who are now writing about masculinity from their own perspectives and so forth. So that was a big defining moment in my life. And then define kind of other people's perspectives as well. So, I mean, that's the one. Really.

Nice. Nice. I was going to say, what do you feel it was about the Way of Men that really landed for guys. Because I would agree. I mean, that book, I remember it coming out and then I remember a lot of guys talking about it. And it's interesting because I don't think that. And I'm going to make a statement, and you tell me whether or not you agree with it or how you would word that. That. But what I find is interesting is that sometimes I think people see not your content or your writing as controversial, but, like, sometimes you and your perspectives, and I found this for myself as well, is that people online especially, don't have the wherewithal to separate the individual from the content or the individual from what they're actually stating. And so I know I just asked you, like, a few questions in there in terms of why do you feel like the book landed? Was it controversial at the time, or did that come later on? Maybe we'll just start there.

I mean, it was slowly controversial, but it was. It's been a real slow build. So, you know, I didn't have a big publishing company putting it out, so I didn't have the. You know, I do the talk show circuit and everybody freaks out. It wasn't that kind of thing. And I didn't want that. And I've been very aware that I didn't want that early on. And so I've had this really cool opportunity to have that book connect with people and have them pass it on to people who will like it without having to go and confront people who will never really get it. So that really wasn't, you know, important to me is to go out and like, let's debate with people about this book. I wanted to get it to the people who were looking for a better way to talk about what masculinity really was. And I think the reason why it has kind of an enduring power and why it, you know, captured a lot of guys is because most books about masculinity to this day are really, they're preachy, you know, they're preaching what men should do. And you know, whether from a religious perspective, from, you know, some guy's perspective who tells you to be like him, some marketing guy, you know, whatever, and there are all those different things out there. But the way of Men wasn't about me and my masculinity, how you should become like me. It was about masculinity. Just what is that? And you know, what is it always and everywhere and not just for. Well, my team says it's this. And if you believe that, you know, like our team is the best, then that's what masculinity is. And it was a very, you know, kind of a thousand foot view of masculinity, which is why it still makes sense to a lot of people and why I can have Christians and Muslims and Hindus and atheists and people who've been to war and people who have literally only ever worked in an office all look at masculinity and see, well, yeah, you're right, that's what it is. And so I think that that's its enduring thing, that separation between morality and masculinity and understanding what tribalism is and understanding that men are all going to have their own tribal perspective of what mascul masculinity is. But big picture is that you see that and you see that that relationship is always going to be there rather than. And you learn how to parse that out like, well, that's their version. And they have to say that because they're in the group, they get kicked out of the group if they don't say that thing. So I think why it's been influential in a lot of ways is because it was very amoral and it wasn't me preaching to Be like me. As far as one of your other questions, separating the individual from the content itself, as you know, this is an ongoing experience that I have. And I think that anyone who is in the public eye or a writer has this experience is that people a read your words in the first person and therefore they believe that they're inside your head. And if you're doing a good job, they are.

So they think they know you and they develop a relationship with you in their head of who they want you to be. And then they get mad when you're not that exact person. But you can't really be held accountable to everybody's different idea of what you're going to be. But, you know, I've always tried to be really honest about who I am and really straightforward and, you know, you can like me or like what I say or whatever, or, you know, if I was, you know, grumpy on Twitter this morning, whatever. But what I actually said about masculinity, I think is true no matter what. And if you could separate out that. Is that right? And then, well, Jack Donovan's a weird artist guy who takes too many pictures of himself and posts them on Instagram. That is its own thing. I mean, I'm just a dude trying to live my life, and I'm not always going to be, I think, people also, because of the way men want me to always be in the space where I'm talking about survival in the gang. And I can do that. But there are a lot of people that now, you know, a lot of people weren't talking about masculinity and these kind of things, you know, 10 years ago. But now it's like, go listen to Jocko and have him tell you about how to be a Navy SEAL and how to be, like, tactical. I was a truck driver. I don't know how to, like. I can talk about the idea of being tactical, but go to a specialist for that, and those specialists exist. So I'm just talking about the big overarching concepts. And I, you know, I'm more of a philosopher than, than, you know, the exemplar of any given thing. Although I try generally, when people would write about masculinity in the past, you know, they could be some fat guy sitting in a university and never try to live up to anything that they say. But, you know, I've. I've always tried to go and do at least some portion of what I tell people to do. You know, it's like I do jiu jitsu. I, you know, that's really helpful. You know, if you. If you want to understand masculinity, have another man try to strangle you for, like, you know, five minutes, you know, like that relationship, and understand what that is, I think is really important. And, you know, I've tried to go. Go and, you know, like, take some firearms courses and do different things like that. I mean, I'm not going to be. I'm not going to be Navy SEAL guy. I missed that train. I was about 20 years late for that, and I never would have done that probably anyway. But, you know, we can just talk about the big overarching concepts and then try to live them to the best of our ability because we all have different talents. I mean, I went to art school, and I am more interested in that. And I'm actually glad that some of these other guys can go be tactical guy, so I don't have to do. I don't have to pretend to do that job. You know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah, It's. I mean, I love hearing you say that for many reasons. I mean, I. I have an arts degree as well. I. I got a Bachelor of Music and I was a classical singer. And, you know, I was also like the Guy riding the 1000cc motorcycle, showing up to opera rehearsal with, you know, spikes on his helmet and very sort of, you know, finding my own way to a sort of like, masculine ideal to. To use some of your language and to settle into that. And I think as I've immersed myself over the last decade within this concept and the different sort of areas of masculine culture, sort of settling into my own role. Like you talked about being the philosopher. And I think in many ways, I'm sort of the healer that helps the men when they're wounded in some capacity to get up off the mat and get back into the fight and get back into the battle of their life. And I think for a while, when I first started to enter into that, I judged that to some degree as being not as worthy as maybe the tactician, you know, the guys like jocko and the role that they play. And so anyway, that's just sort of a disclosure. I don't know if it's necessary or not, but it sounds like you found your own way to the role that you play. And I think it's a very necessary one because there aren't a lot of guys out there doing that. And so that kind of brings me to my next question, which is, how would you say modern culture? And I'm going to start kind of High level, and then work my way down, because I really want to talk to some of the pieces that are within your most recent book, Fire in the Dark, which I loved, I've really loved in a lot of ways. But how would you say that modern culture is viewing, interacting, and treating the concept and the idea of masculinity these days?

Well, I mean, it's almost, you know, it's hard not to know that answer, really. You know, I think that, you know, modern culture, obviously, masculinity is not desirable. And, you know, the reasons for that is. Are obvious. You know, there are a lot of people who would prefer us to be passive. Passive people are far easier to manage. You know, get in the pod and eat the bugs. And there's a lot of guys being like, hell, no, you don't want that. You just want, get in the pod, eat the bugs. There's obviously a lot of voices from women and so forth that want men that try to redefine masculinity in a way that serves their own personal interest. Maybe not the interests of women as a whole, but feminists are a specific little piece of women, really, in the way any kind of radical subset of the population is. So there's a hostility toward masculinity. I hate saying traditional masculinity because I feel like masculinity has always meant the same thing up until very, very recently. And the desire to make it mean something else is a desire to just deconstruct it and create confusion. And, you know, like, if you don't know what masculinity is, you know what men and women are. You don't. You are at the whim of whatever the I hate to be conspiracy theory language. So, like, at the whim of whatever, like, you know, the powers that be wants you to believe at a given time, and then that can change tomorrow because you have no true north. You have no, like, fixed access money that you can. This is what I believe. Like, no, you believe whatever is trending on Twitter right now, and that's kind of way they want things. And so I think it's about creating confusion as to what masculinity is at this point. And I think that masculinity is very simple, and it's rooted in our biology and, you know, our very experience of our bodies. I was talking to a buddy of mine who I know a lot of tactical guys. I had a buddy hanging out over my house drinking the other day, and he's a Green Beret, and we were just talking about, you know, Some of the different experiences that men and women have that you can. You can't reproduce in any way in terms of, like, you know, a woman, even if she's like a five or a six, walks through life knowing that if she raised her hand and said, I want to have sex, some dude would come out of the woodwork to like, okay, now, all right, you know, and like, men don't have that experience. Like, most men, you know, aside from, like, gay men, like, or like strippers, they don't have that experience where they can just like, walk into a bar or wherever and be like, all right, I'm ready to go. You know, and women have that experience all the time. And the really negative experience of that is to feel like prey. Men have a. Are less often in a situation where they feel like prey on a regular basis, whereas women are very aware that they're being watched. And that's a just different way to interact with the world and to make it like there's not a difference there. And that's not all cultural. That just happens to be. Because we're stronger and we think differently and all kinds of different things.

So, yeah, I appreciate that. I appreciate that perspective. And one of the things that you've talked about in your books and directly and indirectly is just this concept of masculine ideals and some of the sort of tenants that make up masculinity and how we can sort of see it, whether it's in myth, whether it's in story, whether it's in reality. And so I would love for you to just sort of piece out what are some of the foundational masculine ideals or core tenets of masculinity from the work that you've done?

Are you talking more about the tactical virtues from the Way of Man or the archetypes from Fire and the Dark?

Let's go tactical virtues first, and then we'll talk about archetypes towards that makes more sense.

That's the progression, right? Because the cool thing about those two books is they feed into each other in a really cool way. I kind of wrapped it around in a full circle. So the basic thesis of the Way of Men is that when evolutionary psychologists and stuff, a lot of times when they think about male and female relationships, they always think of them in the way that animals behave, in the sense of, like, well, the two males compete to mate with the female. And my addition to that was that men select each other. Men select each other first. In many cases, like you, you have to belong to the male group. The hunting and fighting group. And then the women choose from the guys who are in the group because they have the highest status, you know, kind of like the football team or whatever. But in a survival situation, obviously, you know, it's men who you have to please really the most because they are your partners that you have to go out and fight and hunt wild animals with and so forth. And that was most of our evolutionary history. So we've operated in these groups of men who have hierarchies and judge each other. And like, my idea of what masculinity really is is what those groups of men need from each other. Like, what do you need from those guys who are in your group that might be attacked tomorrow or who might have to do something dangerous? Well, you know, like, it's never bad to be strong. Men are physically stronger than women. So that's one of the tactical virtues I talk about, is strength. It is both physical and also, you know, if I had to change the name 10 years later, I would might say might. I don't want to be confused with powerlifting strength. There's athleticism really, I think is, is an all around thing. So, you know, it could be how fast you are and all those other things. So those, those are, you know, values that men have and they value each other. They look at each other like, oh, is that guy strong or is he weak? And that'll have a lot of factors, but, you know, that's how men judge each other. And that's really what I was looking for when I was talking about what is masculinity? How do men judge each other instinctively? You know, before we talk about all the cultural thing, like, is he a good person? Whatever. When you look at the dude across the room, when you're sizing him up, you can rate guys on what their masculinity is. And you might be wrong in the big picture, but you can have a pretty good idea. I'm like, well, what are we looking for? And one of them is strength, another one is courage. Does that guy look like he's going to press his interests if you push him? You know, is he afraid? You know, is he very fearful? Is he really withdrawn? You know, and that, you know, obviously in a group of hunting and fighting men, you know, is he going to be able to take risks for the group or is he going to be the guy who's always like, you know, hiding in the back waiting to last? Men who we recognize as being more masculine are going to be the guys who, you know, are obviously confident. They're not unafraid. They. They project fearlessness. And then I talked about mastery, because I think men always appreciate mastery. We, and, you know, better word for that might even be competence. We appreciate confidence in each other in all things. You know, excellency in. In all things. And you don't get to, as a women, for most of evolutionary history, it's like they had work to do. In most tribal societies, women have lots of work to do. But, you know, like, a girl who's pretty can get a long way really not doing anything. And that is not the case for men. You know, men have to carry their weight or not. You know, so I think men expect that of each other. So I think they really appreciate competence in each other. And then obviously, honor is your reputation among men. And that's the easiest way to talk about honor, because Christianity kind of made honor very complex, became personal honor and your relationship with God and all kinds of things, but in a bigger context. There was a guy named James Bowman who wrote a book called Honor. He talked about it. I think reflexive honor is what he called it. And, you know, do you care enough about your reputation among this group of men? And that's, I think, the easiest way to talk about what honor really is. And if you're in a group of men trying to survive, they need to know that you care about what you think of them. You can't be like, I don't care what anyone thinks of me in a group of people who are depending on you. So you have to demonstrate that you care about your reputation in the context of their group. And the other guys care about that thing, too. So honor became this very, very noble and glittering gold thing. It's this magic word that everyone wants to use, but it really, you know, I always joke that when you talk about honor, when your honor is invoked, it's always a bad day when someone's like, questions your honor or you have to do something because of honor. It's that you're going to do something because you're protecting your reputation. You're going to do something that you don't want to do because it's expected of you or because you believe that the other guys in the group need you to do it or they're going to value that you do it or something like that. So I think honor is, you know, something that men have always looked for in each other. Like, is this guy going to respect our opinion of him and vice versa. So those are the four tactical virtues that I talk about in the way of men. And I think that those are when I talk to military guys. And that was a real, real cool thing when the way of men came out, and then it would go make its way through, like, you know, Afghanistan. And I hear back from people and, you know, all these stories from guys who have actually been in very stressful situations with small groups of men, and they're like, they would give it to all their buddies in their platoon or whatever, because they're like, this is what this is. It's a. You know, I got it. And so, you know, it was cool to have that verified by men who have actually been in that situation.

Yeah. Outstanding. I love that, and I appreciate you breaking it down.

Yeah. I mean, I like to put things on the, you know, the most simple, primal perspective, because honor can get really complicated. But, you know, okay, we are all hunting at aurochs, and you were supposed to do this, and you kind of went and hid behind a tree, because aurochs are scary. They're giant. They're extinct. But that's when we used to hunt. And your honor is just called into question by all the guys in the group because they needed you to do the thing, and you didn't do the thing, and you put them, the rest of them, at risk by not doing the thing. And I think that, you know, if you're in any group, it's always about accountability. Accountability in any good group or a bad one. I mean, bad groups probably have more accountability, but in a, you know, in a worse way. Because it's controlling. Yeah. Just for the sake of controlling. I mean, talk to guys who are, like. Maybe in, like, some of the more notable motorcycle gangs or stuff like that. You know, there's. There's a big tendency to, like, you know, you're not even allowed to flinch because you're supposed to do whatever they. They want you to do. But in many cases, a negative. But, you know, so there's. Yeah, there's always accountability where honor is concerned.

Yeah. I appreciate that. There's one piece that I want to talk about before we go into myth and masculinity and male culture. It was funny as you were talking about that with, like, the motorcycle gag it brought up. I grew up in northern Alberta in Canada, and the Hell's Angels are massive there. And a buddy of mine that I grew up with, his cousin was one of the lead bodyguards for the chapter president, and it was monster, monster of a human being. But he used to talk to us about the sort of culture, and it was interesting because there is that Sort of honor baked into it. And there is something within our sort of male culture that wants that, that desires it, that craves it. But I also think that there's a lot of guys I know for myself, in my late teens, early 20s, like I was afraid of it, you know.

I didn't want it.

I wanted to buck against it. I thought that freedom was about having these sort of like accountability lists, accountability free relationships where I didn't have to be beholden to anybody else. And I'm curious to get your take on whether or not boys and men go through a period where we shirk and reject responsibility and that we need to sort of write our relationship with responsibility in order to be in right relationship with other men.

Well, yeah, and it's such a thorny subject because, you know, a lot of men, you know, it's. It's about the right group. Like, you don't want to have this honor relationship that controls you with the wrong group. Guys who are terrible human beings will also hold you accountable. And people who are successful are always talking about the guys who are in their group holding them back, you know, because they don't want to, you know, kind of a crabs in the bucket scenario that people go through. So it's hard to negotiate. And I think that obviously, especially in North America, and obviously America, there's a big individualistic streak anyway, which is good. I mean, I'm very much that way. I can't really hate on it, but it is good to find a group and be responsible to a group of guys. You just have to make sure that they actually share your beliefs and your values. And they're not just random dudes who you got stuck with, because a lot of dudes have that. They have like a group of guys from high school they got stuck with and those are their only friends that they're supposed to have for forever. And then they're supposed to do what those guys like. And sometimes those guys are good guys. And that's all right, you know, but it is worth, you know, like having a really good friend, you know, which is hard to do in adult life. It's hard to find. And having a good friend is always, you know, like, really any relationship has some element of accountability in the sense that, like, well, I want to do this, but I can't do that. You know, like, I. It's better for the long term of this relationship if I don't do that and I do this other thing and, you know, being present for other men when they actually need you to Be there is a big thing which, you know, is very inconvenient. You know, like, I might want to do one other thing today, but, like, Bob's having a problem and I need to go or Bob needs to move or Bob needs or whatever. Well, I'm going to put that aside because I value that relationship. And so I think more than a. The controlling aspect. I mean, that can be necessary in certain situations, but. And it's really good to have other men judge you, I think. And there's a big stigma about judgment in our society. Man, it's really good to have men judge you. I mean, I personally, I mean, like, I really value when someone can actually not kiss my ass and be like, well, that thing you're doing, it's not working, and maybe you should do this other thing, you know, like you're. You're sabotaging yourself and you probably know it already. And to have a guy who actually say that is really hard to find, I think, because most, most men want to, like, not make waves and. Yeah, yeah, whatever you're doing, it's great. But, you know, if you really value someone's opinion, really value your friend and what you want to happen to them in their life so they can, you know, reach their highest potential, you really do want to challenge them a little bit, because we all have our own bullshit, especially smart people. You know, smart people are really good, and I can. Yeah, the. The best thing about smart people is that we could rationalize any damn thing. Like, I could make a good story for anything, you know, like, of why I need to do X, Y and Z would really. I'm just avoiding it for some totally different reason, you know, so. And I think that all, you know, kind of intelligent people can come with really, really elaborate Byzantine explanations of why they need to do the thing they're going to do.

I appreciate that distinction, and I agree entirely. I got highly proficient at talking myself out of almost any situation ever. And. And so to have men in my life who can challenge me and confront me has been one of the most beneficial things who can kind of see past the bullshit of, like, you're trying to talk your way out of something right now. And, you know, I think within man talks, within the organization that we have, we talk a lot about calling men forward. And it's about holding them to the man that they've said that they want to be or the man that you see them being possible as becoming. And that is, I think what you're saying, just to emphasize it, is so right Having guys that will challenge you honestly and earnestly for you and not for their ego is rare. It is hard to find, but it's so freaking valuable. Like, my life has changed because of that one singular thing. So I just wanted to emphasize that before we get into men and myth, can you. One of the things that I've loved about your writing is the concept of the empire of nothing. And I just wanted to talk to you a little bit about where you see, if you can just define it for the audience that hasn't heard about it, the empire of nothing. And where you see that empire right now and what's happening within it. Just in a brief sense, we don't have to spend a lot of time there. But I really wanted to pick your brain a little bit on it.

Well, I mean, when I get into that kind of stuff, that's when I start to feel like a prophet. And I wish I was more wrong.

That's from. Mostly from the book Becoming a Barbarian. And I talked about, you know, kind of this. This eradication of meaning and identity. Eradication of. I think, in bigger terms that axis mundi, like, whatever your actual identity, the fixed identity in the world, whether it's you're belonging to a group or your religion or particular philosophy that you're like, no, this is how I believe things are, and this is how I want things to be. Your perfect ideal of how things would be. And the empire, nothing. I think when I wrote that, I would have said that I wouldn't assign that to a particular group of people. I would have said it's more, you know, just a collection of corporate interests. Because, you know, corporate interests really have no. There's no person there. They have a legal obligation to produce profit. And so there's really no morality to what they do. It's just. That's all calculated press release kind of stuff. But now we actually see there are some people maybe sitting in Davos and whatever, like, pulling the strings on certain things. But I think what generally corporations and all that kind of stuff want. I mean, especially as they've moved internationally and have interests all over the world, they don't want any kind of nationalism or national differences, really, between people, because those are so inconvenient. Like, you can't have people over here fighting with people over here, because I own companies in both those places. That's a hassle. So you want people kind of all working together and having the very. This kind of fixed monocultural identity, and that breaks down all identities. I think people get fixed on on just one group of people losing their identity or another. But in a long enough timeline, that's all of us. I don't think that what's desired is for us to have our own distinct identities that can be meaningful. I see the Empire of Nothing as being like, if you're in it, I always use a metaphor of like, you're like this kind of shrimp. You're like plankton floating in the ocean because you just go wherever the current goes. You're not fixed to anything. You don't have a home or an orientation in the world. You're just kind of going with the flow. And I think this empire, it's not an empire distinguished from the old days you'd have. This is the empire of this religion with this emperor behind it. And it has a very distinct identity and it's a very distinct shape and culture. There's really no culture, and that's why it's the Empire of Nothing. There's no culture there. There's a nothingness there. If you've seen the movie Never Ending Story, the concept of the Empire of Nothing is very much like the nothing in the Never Ending Story. It's this, you know, this thing that eats dreams and identity and just leaves, you know, emptiness behind it. And that's, that's the basic concept of it.

I appreciate, I appreciate you sharing that. It's. It's interesting because I've had a couple men on the podcast. One of them, Stephen Jenkins, centers in his late 60s, early 70s, and he worked in what he calls the death trade for a long time. So he was a. He helped people, you know, in hospice at the end of their life, sort of transition. And he, he talks a little bit about how we live in a culture that has really no soul and that it's just sort of hollow and empty. And I hear a lot of indigenous people talking about this as well. And so it was interesting to read one of your books. We were talking about the Empire of Nothing and the impact that it has on men, which maybe is for another conversation, because I definitely want to just take a right turn into myth and masculinity. So one of the things that I've noticed you write a lot about, you focus in on, is the intersection between myth and men. And I'm wondering if you can just elaborate a little bit about the role that myth has played historically within male culture or within masculine culture.

Well, I think, you know, this gets into the, you know, my book the Fire and the Dark, and you can look at this a lot of different ways, because it depends on your spiritual approach perspective. Because philosophically, if you belong to a certain religion or a certain group, that is your axis mundi, that all the values really emanate forth from that and that's your orientation. So everything has to make sense with that center point. So if you have a different center point than me, then we're going to have a variation in that. I wouldn't say I was raised, I was raised Catholic, but I was always very skeptical. And so I kind of take a step back perspective. I think myth is good and I think that myth might as well be true. But I think that many cases, these myths that we see over and over and over again repeated in societies, you know, all across the world in different ways, they have to do with, deal with the way that men idealize their own roles in society, their own roles in that hunting and fighting group. Like, I mean, what is the best version of me? And then like turn it up to like a 20 because that's my ideal. This ideal that's high above me, this thing that I want to be, it's just better than I could ever be. But that's my goal to shoot for. That's my perfect ideal of what is good. And I think that when men envision their gods, that's what they really are. And in many cases, when men find themselves attracted to a religion or a God or whatever. I saw it happen with Germanic paganism. Like a guy would key on a particular story because that story represented really who he already wanted to be. Like, he saw that story and it said something to him that really resonated with him. And so that became the God that he was most interested in. For a lot of soldiers, it was the God Tyr. And I always joked about it because the God Tyr only has one story, really. He only has one myth about him. It's the myth where he sacrifices his hand to make the gods who are binding Fenrir to make that trick legal and to defend the God's honor. And so a lot of soldiers who are interested in Germanic paganism, they gravitate towards that one story. There's almost nothing else about that God anywhere but that one story because it has to do with personal sacrifice for the collective. And so soldiers will really hone in on, like, that's my guy, because it represents the perfect ideal of what they were already doing and who they already wanted to be. And so I think that that's true with many gods and religions and so forth. Like, you know, what is the most Perfect version of a father. Whoa. He's above us. Well, he's in the sky. You know, he's even. He's. He's a. But he's bigger than us, and he's better than us, and he's in the sky, and he creates everything. I only create this little bit down here, but he creates everything. So, you know, again, it's this idea of this perfect version of ourselves. And I think that that's why they. That we need myths and gods and so forth, however literal you want to make that. Because we need an ideal. Men need an idea. We need something to look up to. Because if we don't, then where are we going? If we don't have a direction, where are we going? People today hate own kind of ideals because they're unrealistic. Why would you worship this unrealistic thing? Well, because if it's unreachable, you always have somewhere to go. You can always get better. You know, it's like when you do jiu jitsu. Like, there's always someone better than you in jiu jitsu. So there's no, like, end. There's a couple guys who are the best in the world, but they're only for a minute, usually. And then someone else is. And so it's this unreachable, intangible thing. So it always gives you something to shoot for. And so you want to have an ideal in all areas of your life, I think, really. And that's what really, gods and myths really serve the purpose of. They, you know, talk about other stories and interrelationships of different aspects of human nature. Especially when you get something complicated like Greek myths or whatever. There's all kinds of stuff going on there that talk about all aspects of human psyches and so forth. But when you really get down to the basic ideals of why men need gods and ideals, it has to do with giving them something to shoot for. And an ideal of perfection is motivating. And without that, then you're just accepting what is. And that's kind of empire of nothing stuff like whatever is, is good enough because there is no ideal. So you can just accept you're perfect just the way you are. Now. Get in the pond, eats bugs.

And here's your participation trophy for doing so.

Here's your participation trophy. You showed up and you were breathing, so that. There you go. And we don't want to be like, you know, offending. We don't want to offend the dead. So if you're not breathing, that's okay too you also get a perpetuate delivery, you know.

Oh, man. Yeah. Well, it's interesting because I think. I don't know if it was Jung or somebody else that talked about how myths hold truths that are hard for us to communicate and that they hold a kind of deeper truth that we can embody. And I think, to use your terminology, that we. That become an ideal that we can aim towards. And it's interesting because I think one of the things that you get into in your book is the role and the archetype of the father, the symbol of the father. And you talk about the father and the darkness and light. And so I'm hoping that we can maybe close this conversation in the next 10 or so minutes talking about the role of the father in myth and what it can teach us as mental about ourselves, about our role as fathers, and just about our role as men within culture. So just a small question. Just a small question for you.

Sure, sure, sure. Yeah. I mean, the father in darkness, I really resonate with that myself, because that's probably the archetype that I'm closest to. It sounds very dark and whatever, but it has to do with, you know, in that book, there's a lot of complicated stuff where I talk about comparative religion and George Dumasiel and trifunctional hypothesis for the European societies and whatever, but basically the idea, he talks about the father archetype kind of being broken in two. In his book Mitravaruna, there's a kind of an overseeing father, and then there's kind of this chaos father, the war father or whatever. Odin is a really good representation of that and how that works in terms of, you see this guy sitting on a chair who can see everything and gives commands and so forth. And then there's also a guy hanging on a tree trying to find the runes. And the way that all this relates, because that's a lot the way that this relates to, I think, different roles as men playing a leader, because that's what really the father role is, this leader and creator of values, whether it's in your family, in your home, in your workplace, in a group of men. There are two roles that you have to play if you're going to be the leader. And one of them is to be the guy who sits on the throne and gives the. Here's what we're going to do. Confidently, I've already decided, here's the plan. And then if you have any sense of responsibility to the men around you or to your family or to yourself or whatever group that you're in, man, that's a hard choice, figuring out what to do if you're any kind of leader. If you're, like, influencing people online, like, what should I tell these guys? If you're responsible, you are thinking to yourself, you know, there's a lot of possible outcomes. So that's kind of the Father in Darkness archetype that I think is that you have to go through this realm of chaos and figure all these things out.

So the Father in the Darkness, which, by the way, the Father in the darkness certainly resonated with me like the kind of shepherd through the shadow, you know, helping people make sense of chaos. And that seems to be a big part of it, right? Is like making sense of chaos and creating order. Would you be able to elaborate on.

That a little bit?

Well, yeah, that's a huge, I think, function of what I really was talking about in Fire in the Dark is what men do and, you know, what we do in the world. If you're going out. And I created my own myth in that book, kind of the myth of the first Men. And this is what men do always and everywhere. We've always done it eventually. We did it all over America, all over North America. You had settlers come out and they're in strange territory. They can't go back to where they came from. They are in new territory. And they have to kind of secure a space because the world is chaotic until we secure it. Until we're like, we decide what things are, name things. You have to discover the. Understand your environment and kind of map it out. Maps are very much of that work. Understand the terrain so that everything is known, because that's what this archetype of the Father really does, is it makes. I always relate it to the sun. The sun, when it comes out, it reveals what's there. And so you can make the world intelligible and you can separate one thing from another thing and then give things names. You know, this is this, and that is that, and then that makes the distinction and then that. That every rule is also, you know, every distinction like that is a rule like that can no longer be another thing because it's that thing. And so our job is to really create these boundaries between things because that's how we make sense of the world. Because if anything can mean anything, then there is no meaning. Meaning doesn't exist. If meaning is completely flexible, then meaning doesn't exist. And so our reality is completely malleable and that we can't really function like that. Humans aren't really designed to interact like that. So we have to be able to identify things, and that's what we do. On a conceptual level, that's a very high level of order, of giving things values and names and rules about them. Them and separating them. But, you know, men have always done that in terms of, like, they're just their actual terrain. You have a military group. They go out and secure a space, and they've now, like, staked it out and figured out where everything is. And like, okay, this is our safe space that we've created, our perimeter. And then. Then you can have beers in the center, but only after you've done that job. You know, like, you can go hang out in the center, but we need to know what's in there. And so that's a big job of the father and just the male group in general, is to create this perimeter of safety. And it's only when we have this primitive safety and order that we can really do all the higher, cooler work of civilization, which is creating art and having families and doing all the other stuff. You can't do that until you know what's out there, you know, what's around you and all that. And you can separate a rock from a tree.

Those things are all very, very important. And I think that we lose that sense of how important definitions are in the modern world. People are just like, oh, well, that changed, and it means this now. Well, why and who wanted it to change? Because if you change meaning, then you change a lot of things.

So many threads that I want to pull at in there. I wish that we had, like, two more hours for me to just go into.

That's a really fun philosophical thing to get into.

But, yeah, yeah, I feel like. I feel like if you're up for it, we'll have to do around two so we can go down that pathway, because that's certainly one that I feel is relevant. And, you know, it's interesting because as you're talking, you know, you in the book, you talk about the role of the father and, you know, sort of creating order, being the first kind of deity for children to kind of make sense of the world and especially for young boys to look up to. And I'm curious to get your sense on. What does myth tell us about men or boys who grow up with a completely absent father? Right. No father there. Or a father consumed by addiction. What is this sort of mythological pathway that's there? Because I feel like we're living through a time where many men have a kind of absent Father in some way, shape or form. And it leaves a. I can't remember who said it, but a quote, like godlike hole in their hearts. And so there's some assumptions laced into what I'm saying and some sort of presuppositions. But I'm curious to get your take on that, nonetheless.

Well, yeah, I mean, I think that's a really good way to describe it because they're missing that whole formative concept, that relationship to the man above me and then the man above here, you know, whatever that is. And yeah, so they. I think it's a real struggle for them to find that. And they go through a lot of times. You'll see it. I mean, I see it a lot in the, like, online world. You'll see dudes who are just looking for some guy to be that guy. And unfortunately, there are a lot of people who want to be that guy for you for, like, 1995 or whatever, you know, like, they're, you know. And that's not always wrong, but if it depends what the guy is and what kind of advice he's giving. But there are a lot of people looking for any kind of exemplar, some kind of guy to follow who makes sense of the world for them. And I think people who have really strong father figures, they already have this kind of foundation of what they believe. It may vary from what their father taught them, but they have a sense of what that is. And I think guys who don't have a father figure are looking for something like that. And the struggle with that, too, is that the first one isn't always the good one. The first guy they pick to be the father figure might not be the best one because they're reaching. Just like anything else. Your first relationship might not be the best one. You join a group, it's probably not. It might not be the best one. You learn by falling down in life. So you may pick a mentor that is not the best mentor. And so that's why that role is so important, I think. Think for adult men, it's like, if you're going to mentor, I think there's a huge responsibility to that. And there are a lot of people out there who will just take advantage of that, you know, and just manipulate dudes, like cult leader types, you know, who will just manipulate guys because they can. Or, like, you're, you know, kind of like the motorcycle gang type. Or like, oh, like, well, these guys are dumb enough. They won't. They'll do whatever we say, you know, I mean, That's a real thing. Because a lot of guys are, like, missing this kind of initiation. They're missing this guy screaming at them even, you know, a lot of guys, I think, are now paying for, like, initiation things. And again, I'm not saying that's wrong, but they'll go to have some dude, like, scream at him like a drill sergeant, because I think they've missed that experience. They feel like that they need that to happen, and so they go through that and maybe it helps them. Yeah, like you said, there's an emptiness there, and they're seeking that out in other men, which they're going to have to. I think it's, you know, obviously, if there's any way that you could provide that for them on the way up, I think it's important. A lot of men that I know try to make an impression, that even if they are fathers and they're raising their sons and so forth, they try to involve them with a lot of other men who are worthwhile so that this kid grows up surrounded by a group of men who are all. They have high value in different ways. So it's not just the one guy. So I think that that's maybe good for other men who are finding that later in life as well. Maybe it isn't just one man that you have to follow. Maybe it's five. Maybe you need to look to for a good collection, a pantheon, if you.

Will, of father figures to tap into good stuff, man. Well, I can. I can attest that I've had, you know, thankfully, I've been fortunate enough to have multiple men in my life who, you know, were in their 60s or 70s or older, who have sort of played that role in my life. And it's been instrumental in making sure that I didn't drop off the deep end of existence, you know, or get. Get lost in the shuffle as. As we've sort of been talking about here. And so anyways, Jack, we're. We're out of time, and so I want to honor your time. I want to pause here. I would love to speak with you again and go deeper into myth, because I feel like we started to scratch the surface on some of these pieces that are big conversations. And for the people that are out there listening, you know, obviously we talked about the way of men becoming a barbarian. Fire in the dark. Where can people go learn a little bit more about your work and your writing?

Well, my website is jackdasjonovan.com Instagram is the thing I use the most. I think there's a mailing list through my website and also through Instagram. My Instagram is artheworld. It's been my slogan for many, many years. I recently since Elon Musk tried to buy it, I decided to jump on Twitter after being adamantly against it for many, many, many, many years. So I have a Twitter account, but the Jack Donovan was taken. So it's the. Actually, my name is the proto Indo European word for father, so it's pater. So I spell it P H2T3R because I thought I'd make it kind of tech. Now.

It'S a little harder to find, but if you look up Jack Donovan, you can probably find it. But yeah, so Twitter and Instagram and I also have a YouTube channel as well.

Awesome. Well, we'll have all the links to that in the show notes. Again, thank you so much for joining me today. For everyone that's out there listening, share this episode with somebody that you know is going to enjoy this conversation that's going to find some value in it. And until next week, this is Connor Beaton signing off.

Sam.