Mike Liguori - Forgiving Your Father

Foreign.

Team. Welcome to the Man Talk Show. I'm Connor Beaton and joining me today is Mike Liguori. He is a writer and coach who helps amazing humans transcend their inherited limitations so they can create their extraordinary life.

He is the author of two books.

The Sandbox Stories of Human Spirit and War and the Road Ahead and Miles behind, which we touch on a little bit, which is a story of healing and redemption between father and son. So as you can imagine, Mike and I talk extensively about our relationship as men to our fathers and we talk.

About the role that we play as.

Fathers, the role and the impact we can have on our sons lives. And, and we talk about how we can forgive, repair relationships with our fathers and the archetype of the father and.

The role that that man and that.

Individual can have on our lives, the impacts it can have when they're not present, when there's dysfunction, when there's addiction. And so we take a deep dive into that relationship. So I hope that you enjoy this episode. It's very personal for Mike.

I share a little bit about my.

Own personal story and more on this topic will be coming. So without any further delay, please welcome Mr. Mike Liguori.

All right, Mike, welcome to the Man Talk Show. How are you doing today?

Hey, Connor. Good to see you, man. Thanks for having me. I'm doing great.

Good, good. Well, it's fun to be connected. And you know, I know a little bit about your story and former guest Anthony Balduzzi had introduced us. He's been on the show a couple times. I always love chatting with him, but I'm looking forward to this conversation. I think we're going to get into some, some interesting territory here that I know a lot of men could use. And so before we do that, or maybe, maybe just as a sort of like entrance into it, why don't we start with you telling us a story about a defining moment in your life that made you who you are today.

Well, feel like I'm on the couch already in the therapist's office, but, you know, I'll just, yeah, I'll just, I'll just dive right into it. So it was 2001, September 11, when the two towers got hit. And we all remember that day. And I was a senior in high school when that happened. And that was a defining moment in my life because instead of going to college, I decided that I wanted to join the United States Marines. So over the course of the next four years, from 2002 to 2006, I did two tours in Iraq for A combined amount, I think it's about 15 months, 16 months roughly. And. And that defining moment put me on this path that I'm at now. And we'll talk a little bit more about the book, obviously, today, Connor. But for me, that defining moment of joining the military and learning about what I was capable of, serving my country at that time frame, and also coming home and dealing with the aftermath of war and transitioning home and trying to find myself again, going from the uniform and wearing US Marines on one side and, you know, my last name on the other, that was a very proud thing for me to wear for four years, and it meant something to me. And when that transition out of the military and I'm no longer wearing those, those name tapes and the uniform in itself, that was a really. That was a really introspective, very tough, deeply profound moment in my life about learning who I was after the war and after the military as well.

Can you say a little bit more about what it means to you to serve in the military? Because I think for a lot of people, I've had the honor of working with Navy seals now and former army guys in different positions and just speaking with them. Right. Whether it's on the show or working with them one on one or whatever, and it's always been. I think I've learned a lot about what that means, that camaraderie, that brotherhood. And for the average person that hasn't served in the military or maybe never played a team sport as an example, it's. It's very hard to. To sort of get. But I would love for you to maybe paint a picture of. Of what it meant to you.

Yeah, that. Yeah, that's a great question. Just to dig into that deeper, you know, serving in the military is really something that's just so much bigger than the individual. You're serving on behalf of 380 million Americans. You're serving on ideas and, you know, know, perspectives on what it means to be free and, you know, whatever side of the fence you are on politically, at the end of the day, it's about individual freedom and the right to choose. And when you embody that as part of a larger unit and you're in the military and you represent the different branches, that means something to you. And for me, that. That whole, I guess that whole perspective of being able to wake up and start a business and drop my kids off at school and live my life accordingly and comparing that to other place in the world, we're incredibly lucky, and we're very fortunate to have those individual rights and freedoms. And so, you know, when you serve in combat on behalf of those ideas, those perspectives, those rights that we as a country have, it's deeply moving, and I'm incredibly grateful that I got to be able to serve on that. And the military, on the flip side of that, also taught you a way of life that's actually really beneficial. You learn how to be accountable and take ownership and responsibility for yourself. And not. That doesn't mean that every single day it's. You just take accountability and responsibility naturally, even though you've done it for four years and that's the code you live by. There are days where you become a human being and you're like, nah, it's not my fault. But, you know, when you. When the onus is. Is really accountability, responsibility is yours and yours alone. And so being in the military and defaulting to that and just remembering what you learned about being part of a unit and serving people and knowing that the mission is first and that your mission has to be first as well, it was really beautiful. It was a really beautiful four years.

I appreciate that. And I think. I think that's the thing that I've heard. You know, obviously, not everybody has a great experience, and some. Some guys come out.

Yeah.

And they're sort of jaded and bitter about it, and it's not what they wanted. But I think the majority of the men that I've spoken to over the years have talked about this sort of embedded sense of mission and purpose and then community. You know, it's not often that that word is used, but I think that's almost always what I'm hearing is that this sense of, like, camaraderie and brotherhood is also sort of baked into it. And so the men that you go to war with, the men you're in battle with, the men that you fight alongside, you get to know them in a way that when you come out is maybe harder to find that level of accountability, that level of sort of closeness within other people. And so I appreciate you sharing that perspective. And so let's talk about. You come out and there's a. Obviously, that's a big transition. What prompted this journey that you ended up taking? And for those listeners out there, Mike wrote a book called the Road Ahead and Miles Behind. And I would just love for you to just maybe cue it up, Mike, and just sort of give some prompts into, like, what led to this journey that then led to the book.

Yeah, well, and just to touch a little bit on what you were Saying about the military is, is that when you get out, it's really hard to find people just like you because you're thinking that being in this, you know, kind of this lifestyle and I, and I, you know, I default to saying that the military is the greatest self improvement organization on the face of the planet. It just makes you a better person. You just learn certain things and you're inundated in a culture and you're immersed and when you get out, you have this expectation that everybody else is supposed to act just like you. And then you forget. You also forget that you're part of the. Less than 1% of the population actually serves in the military. So imagine being inundated in this place where every single person is in a culture, wears their hair the same way. There's regulations, you wear your uniform a certain way, you get up to go do physical training in the morning. Everybody does things pretty much the exact same way. It's very regimented. And then you get out and thinking everybody else is supposed to act just like you. So that transition for me, when I got out, I remember going to junior college and thinking to myself, you know, who can I connect with? And it was kind of crickets. I was like, man, I hope I run into another veteran. I hope I run into somebody who kind of acts like me.

It seems to me like a lot of the guys that I've spoken to kind of say a similar thing, which is, you know, interacting with civilians. Civilians don't seem to have the same level of accountability and the same level of commitment to their word. And so it's like as an army vet, a lot of guys say, like when I say I'm going to be somewhere, if I say I'm going to do something, I follow through with it.

Right?

And in our modern culture that, you know, there's so many excuses and it's like, I'm so busy, I can't commit to that and I can't show up. And I just don't feel like it today. And you know, there's a lot of sort of reasons that show up. And so a lot of guys say it feels very isolating because it does seem like other men or other people just don't have the same level of connection to responsibility, to honor, to self respect. And that, that feels disconnective. And so I don't know if that feels true for you, but.

Yeah, yeah, no, it does. And why would people want to take responsibility when it's just easy to blame somebody else for it? I mean, you know, that's why military. That's why people in the military are just so ingrained with taking ownership and responsibility because they had a sense of purpose and mission, serving their country. And so when you get out and civilians, you just kind of wake up. They only have pretty much a responsibility, whether you have a family or not. I know you have a family as well. Your main responsibility is to be the best version of yourself so you can serve your family. But for guys in the military, they're so used to this, almost the sacrifice of laying everything on the line to make sure that the mission gets done. Putting their teammates first, because they know that their teammates are putting them first. It's really hard when you get out and you're part of that 1% and you're looking elsewhere for people to take responsibility or step up when maybe a moral conflict occurs, you know, a right or wrong. I'm sure we've seen those videos of, you know, people robbing liquor stores. And then there happens to be a military veteran there who's, you know, jumping in to resolve the situation. And that takes an act of courage, you know, and that takes the active responsibility.

Yeah, I was going to say it's. I'm always astounded when I'm scrolling through the Internet and I come across videos where it's just a slew of people with their fricking phones out, recording a situation happen and no one stepping in. It's like, I mean, the way that I grew up, you know, the way that I was sort of raised, there is a sort of moral responsibility to the larger community. I'm very grateful for the lessons and the sort of moral compass that I was raised with. Cause I can't imagine not sort of stepping in, not intervening, not having some responsibility of like, I'm a part of this society, I'm a part of this culture. I'm a part of this community. And for me, I like, really. I don't know, maybe this is saying something about me, but I really find myself being like, how can people just stand around and TikTok something, you know, and not step in for the social betterment of our community? It's like, you know, it's almost like our culture has. And this is sort of a deviation, right? We're getting off track here a little bit. But it's almost like our culture is tearing itself apart a little bit, you know, and you can see it in the fact that. That people can witness immoral, unethical behavior happening and feel like they're wholeheartedly removed from it, right, that the act of standing there, filming it on their phone somehow removes them from the situation. It's like, no, no, you're actually still involved. You're still a part of that. You're a witness to it. You are almost like an accomplice to it in some way because you're just. You sort of just fucking standing there, right? Like, what the hell, man? Like, it really. It really is. Is wild to me. So I don't want to go too far down the street.

No, no, no.

I.

But I. No, I love your perspective on that. I mean, I think you explained it beautifully. And I think one thing to just think about is recreational responsibility. Like, people love the idea that they can be participatory through their phones and that they can jump in when they want to and jump out. Because if I had to fully commit, like a full send to intervene in a horrible situation, that means I have to go all in. So if you look at the broader scale of society, how many people are willing to go all in? Entrepreneurs who are incredibly successful, they go all in on their business, they burn the boats. Men who step up and want to become leaders for their family and provide and be able to take responsibility and accountability. Military veterans also as well. And not every single military veteran is like, you know, they may be ingrained with accountability and responsibility, but the reality is it's the full scent. It's the go all in on what you believe in. And so there. That's a very hard thing to do. And very few people within that 1% and also very few people in our society are able to do that because it is scary. And so why not record with the phone? I'm there, but I'm not really there. I'd rather post it for, you know, some sort of notoriety or to go viral or claim fame. And, you know, we could even do a whole episode on like, you know, hidden beliefs of virality, right? Like why people actually record stuff. But, you know, to take the conversation, what you were asking earlier about how did I get to that pivotal moment in 2020 is I also admittedly did not go all in or full send on myself after the military because I struggled with a multitude of mental health problems. But I also struggled with this idea that I lost my footing and my place in the world. And a lot of military veterans struggle with that. But I also think a lot of people struggle with that as well. It's hard to kind of wake up every single day and go, I know exactly why I'm here. I know exactly what My purpose is. And I always teetered on that line. Like, one day I would feel like I was born to be a writer and I was supposed to tell stories and, you know, give people an opportunity to showcase the trials and tribulations and the resiliency it takes to go through life. And then there would be days where I felt like I didn't have anything. I felt like I was just born to be mediocre. And so 2020 hit the year that we all love. And, you know, I'm gonna fast forward through kind of some of my. My journey and process with going back into therapy through PTSD and dealing with, you know, dealing with an alcohol problem that was really masquerading a lot of my feelings and emotions of my purpose in the world. And, you know, I had stopped drinking about six years ago and found myself in a really good spot where I wasn't too high, but I also wasn't low, but I was cruising. And that level of mediocrity actually, to me, is a very detrimental to a lot of people, especially men. It's not the suffering piece. It's the mediocrity piece. It's where you refuse to push yourself to even higher limits because you are just cruising right now. And 2020 was that, for me, was the pinnacle of my mediocrity. And finding that out, it does seem like.

And this is sort of a generalized statement, but it does seem like the bar for many people, but many men in our culture and our society is stagnation is like this place of, like, oh, if I can just get to this place where there's. There's no major risk. You know, if I can just get to this, like, stable place. Like, we've kind of. We've. We've made, you know, sort of stabilization this and this safety, right? Like, our culture is now obsessed with safety. And so I see a lot of guys playing it safe and getting to this place of, like, I just want to have, like, the good job and yeah, and this and the stable fan. Like, and when I get there, everything will be great. And they get there and they're like, you know, they spent six months there, 12 months there. It's like, oh, I fucking hate this. You know, I'm miserable. Right? It's like, well, yeah, you're not. You're not pushing your edge. You're not expanding your capacity. There's no real mission. You're just trying to maintain mediocrity. You just trying to maintain a status quo. And that maintenance of status quo is. Is almost what creates a sense of complacency and discontent? You know, I found that in my own life is any time where I've found myself in a place of like, oh, okay, I'm, I'm just, I'm just going to try and maintain this area right here. It's like that shit never lasts, you know, it's so hard to do.

Yeah, it really is.

So maybe give some context around the relationship with dad. I know you, you decided to do like a cross country trip.

Yeah.

And, you know, during the pandemic, which is like, what a time to choose to, to rip cross country. But how, how did that come about?

Yeah. And you know, I, I love what you were talking about, the mediocrity thing too, because there's a whole narrative in here about what sparked this trip. And you know, military guys just bringing that back for a second. We're never taught to make money. You got promoted, you got paid a certain rate and that was it. And distinctly, like, you were already provided for with your basic needs. So any additional money you have was usually blown on, you know, whatever you wanted to, whether it was recreational or whether you decided to save. So imagine getting out after four years of being told it's not about money, it's about the mission, which is great in theory, but then when you get out into society and you start having kids and responsibilities, you know, 60k for some guys who were only making 19k is pretty cool. But then, you know, when you talk about in the grand scheme of things, that's a really hard thing to unwire. So I went from being A, an E3, E4. For those of you who are not familiar with the military enlisted rank structure, I was pretty low on the food chain. Still, in the grand scheme of things, I think at the time when I had deployed to Iraq, I was making $1,100 every two weeks, tax free money. And that was with a combat PayPal. So as you get, you know, boost at the time, so you can imagine what it would actually be like not having those combat pay incentives. But anyway, I say all that because a lot of my life was just hitting the ceiling of mediocrity. And so being in the shadow of my dad, who was a cfo, who had always made really good money in trying to keep up with him, or I would say try to keep up with him, but also restrict myself, because what I found was there was a massive disconnect between the father that he is and, and the father that I wanted him to be. And so those expectations actually Create a lot of resistance and suffering for myself. And knowing that dad couldn't show up to my baseball games throughout my childhood, or, you know, he would say one thing and pivot another. And that was always through the lens of money because he's very good with his money. You know, frugal in a sense, but also, you know, frugal within sense, doesn't live beyond his means at all. So imagine your entire life living in the shadows of somebody who's financially successful and not feeling like you have access to things. And so, and I'm not saying. And I'm not blaming him by any sort of means necessary because, you know, when we all are born into this world, we're all blank slates. We have no input whatsoever. And we pick up things along the way that become part of our identity. But part of my identity was, is that dad never showed up. Dad cared more about work and money. So therefore I had a problem with that and I actually had a problem with money. So money was one vehicle I had a problem with, and I'll dive into that a little bit later. But the other thing was, is that my dad and I had a massive disconnect because I had resentment towards him because I didn't feel like he showed up to being the father that I wanted him to be. So 2020 comes and I've been sitting at home probably about a month out from my birthday now, during the time of COVID it was actually a really big growth year for me. I did a lot of self improvement, a lot of reflection, went deep into myself, had the opportunity. We were talking a little bit about somebody that we both know, Ryan Mickler, who I'd met at a Wim hof retreat in 2020. And that was such a special moment for me because it was the first time I had actually gotten called out and asked to take accountability and responsibility for being mediocre. And so I flew home from that retreat in a day before the country shut down. Or I think actually that was the day of. I think it was like March 15, 16ish, like when the country completely shut down. And during that whole entire time, from March all the way to October before my dad called me, I had started praying in my faith, believing in God and saying, you know, this is it. If this is, if we're all going to be just locked into our apartments and wearing masks and quarantine for the rest of our lives, I want to be able to have something with my dad. And that might be a silly ask for, you know, a grown man who's, you know, still has like a wounded inner child. But to me, that's all I really wanted was a relationship with my dad because he wasn't getting any younger. I didn't know what was going to happen with the rest of the world, as I'm sure some of your listeners, including yourself, probably had no clue what was going to happen. And for me, I just wanted a relationship with my dad. Even if it was just talking about stocks, business, baseball, football, maybe life advice every once in a while, then so be it, a cordial ground to walk on. And that phone call that I got from him four weeks before my birthday was really profound and it changed my life. And you know, it's funny when you start asking, you know, universe, God, source, spirit, whatever you, whatever you choose to believe. It's funny when you ask for something and you align your feelings and your emotions and your thoughts behind it. You get it presented to you. It may not be exactly how you want it, but you get it presented to you. And for me, I wanted this great, you know, decent relationship with my dad and I got a phone call instead at that time.

That's awesome, man. I appreciate you kind of laying that up. And I think one of the things that I found to be interesting about what you said before that I'd love for you to elaborate on is the father that you had versus a father that you wanted. Because I think that's a common theme for so many men that I've worked with over the years. And so if you can just unpack that a little bit more and then.

We'Ll go, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, first of all, expectate, you know, is the kind of the old saying is, you know, in the military is for anybody that's been in combat or heard somebody who's been in combat, they go, assumptions get killed. And so parlaying that into something maybe not as, you know, severe and high stakes expectations set you up for failure. They do in a lot of ways, especially with our parents. Now there's expectations as an entrepreneur, there's expectations as, you know, individuals has meant that we hold ourselves to high standards. And in some ways expectations can serve us that way. But most of the time when we have these very, when we have these expectations, they can tend to be very grandiose and especially if we have them of our parents. So our parents are human beings and we are too. And that concept lets you know that you're flawed, you have flaws, everybody has a flaw, nobody is perfect, including your parents and including you. So Imagine when you have these expectations of dad is supposed to be a certain type of way, but he's not really being that way. You live in this box of dad, how come you're not showing up to my baseball games? Even when you're a kid, you don't understand that stuff. And even as a grown man, if you haven't healed that inner child or that young boy that's inside of you, that thing is always going to be festering up to the surface. It doesn't matter how old you are. If you are still expecting your dad to come meet you at the table and he's not capable of doing that, your expectations of him will fail you and they will create a ton of weight for you. And that's what happened with me. Connor was the weight that I felt of expecting my dad to be something more than what he was capable of being did not actually allow me to love him. It allowed me to tolerate him. And tolerance is not love. It is not love. And those expectations set me up to really look at my dad and go, you know, dad, you never showed up to my baseball game when I was 16. You were a terrible basketball coach when I was in fifth grade. And like, I wasn't the best player in fifth grade. But, you know, there, there's. Again, when we talked about earlier in the episode, it's always easier to deflect our problems onto somebody else because it's much harder for us to take responsibility for the fact that we had anything to do with it at all.

Yeah, I think that's a great frame because I think what I see happening with a lot of men, you know, I mean, it's interesting, right, because our father is in some ways, if you look from like a mythological standpoint or even a psychological standpoint, our father often stands as the sort of closest thing to God, right. When we're, when we're young, we sort of idle. Oftentimes. Kids will idolize their, you know, boys will idolize their fathers. He's sort of this larger than life figure. And we can put a lot of expectations and hopes and wants and dreams onto him. And when he doesn't start to live up to those things, when he doesn't start to live up to the man that we think he should be, right. There can be a lot of resentment, sadness, guilt, you know, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, the list can go on and on and on. And I think one of the challenges that a lot of men have is.

Let me see how, if I can Frame this properly. But it's almost like, I think a lot of men struggle to step into the man that they're capable of being because they're waiting for their father to be who they want to be. And it's like, I can't be who I want to be as a man until you show up in my life in this way. And it's such an interesting paradox. And so I don't know if you found that for yourself.

No, that's. No, that's actually great. And I would add on, just piggybacking off, what you're saying is, is that men tend to seek acceptance from their father, too, on the actions that they choose to take in their life. So for me, I'll. And I'll share this tidbit with, with your audience here. For a long time, money was a challenge for me. And it is for most people. Money's a big deal. And I used to vilify money because in my line of thinking was, dad never met my expectations. So get this. Dad never met my expectations. Dad has money. If I acquire money, I'm going to be like my dad, who I resent. Therefore, I'm not going to allow myself to make money. That was a realization that I had on the road trip that I took in 2020 with my dad sitting in a car with him for 11 days in this Mercedes Sprinter van. For those of you who don't know what a Mercedes Sprinter van is, is, you've seen him every single day, Amazon drops off stuff at your house. Imagine being in a, you know, silver Bullet or container, so to speak, driving from Las Vegas to Florida with a man that you've had resentment for almost 30 years of your life. And coming to that realization that that's the reason why you haven't allowed to create income for yourself, let alone provide for a future family. Because I would say most men have a desire to be a father, to have a. Have a family. And so imagine you have throttled yourself completely out of resentment that you're going to end up just like your dad. So for me, that was a big. That was a big realization that I had. Was. It wasn't. That I had. And here's the thing, Connor. I always made okay money. Like, again, mediocre money, but I always made okay money. Like, there were times where I was struggling really bad during my transition and then got some good jobs and worked at some amazing companies and organizations where I learned a lot about how to think and how to be, how to lead and how to be part of a team. And it kind of gave me that sense of purpose. But when you talk about the almighty dollar, so to speak, chasing a father who has all of that and seeking his acceptance and trying to get his approval for all of the actions and the choices that I took, Vilifying money was probably the most ridiculous thing that I did. If anything, I used that and said, I'm actually going to make more money than you to show you that I can do that. But even in turn, that's an, that's a, it's a measure of extreme right? So for me it was, it was the vilifying of money and not allowing myself to earn despite him. Like, I'm gonna take myself out, Connor. I'm gonna take myself out by not making money. And I'm gonna be like the quote, starving artist as a writer, which most people still have this analogy that writers are poor. That is not true in this day of age. I know a lot of writers who make damn good money. But you know that analogy, that analogy of like, I'm gonna show you dad by like beating myself up and like cutting up my own legs from underneath me to prove to you that I'm not going to end up like you. I'm going to do things my way. And a lot of men have a problem with that. We actually self sabotage in one form or another, subconsciously. I believe not. I don't think it's a conscious decision, but I think a lot of it is rooted at the subconscious level where we think dad is never going to approve us. So we either take ourselves out and it's kind of almost acting like the inner boy acting out, right? Like the 8, the 12 year old saying to ourselves that, hey, you know what, Daniel, watch me. I'm going to become a complete, total mess right in front of your eyes. And now I'll get your attention, right?

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's interesting because I think one of the things that I've seen time and time again and you, you laid it out like perfectly in, in your own story, is that the thing that we often feel like is taking our father away from us is the thing that we come to often resent, right? It's like, you know, as a boy, money took your father away, right? His, his career, et cetera. And so we can, we can build this like, unconscious resentment towards those things. I see this with so many guys. It happened in my own life. Same thing, right?

And then, and then we go down this path of, of like repetition or opposition, right? We repeat the pattern that our father had to try and understand, like, why the hell did you do this? Or we oppose it vehemently to say, I'm, I'm never going to be like you. But we're not free.

Right.

We're not sovereign individuals in that space because we're living either in our father's shoes or in opposition of his path. And it's such a hard thing to break free from. So that brings me to the multimillion dollar question, which is how did you start to forgive him? You spent this trip with him in the car. I would love for you to just give some context into what was that like? What were some of the conversations that maybe allowed you to start to let go of that resentment? What were some of the. The questions that you had to ask in order to seek some kind of forgiveness? Or was none of that necessary?

Yeah, that's a great question. And I love playing the multimillion dollar game. So let's just jump right into it. You know, at first it was a shock for me that he even called me in the first place and said, hey, do you want to take a road trip with me? First of all, it's the middle of the pandemic. Nobody knows when the light at the end of the tunnel is. And here's my dad, who I've resentment in for close to 30 years, asking me to go into the sprinter van and drive across country with him. At first I was like, you are absolutely out of your mind. I would never get in a car with you for 11 days after all this stuff that we've had to deal with, like the audacity. For me, it was like ridiculous.

Yeah, it sounds. It sounds like the script to like a, you know, like a movie, like a. Like a strange Martin Scorsese movie or something like that. It's going to go awry along the journey.

Right, Exactly. It's like the teeing up to the, you know, the climax of the film.

It's got a secret mission and he's taking you along for. You don't even know.

Yeah, right. It's like very hero's journey. But, you know, there. But in the back of my head with that. And this is just such a pivotal moment from that book was here I am listening to my dad. My dad's an old ad agency, guys. So if any of you are. Watched the show Mad Men, my dad, in a lot of ways was Don Draper. You know, he used to pitch big brands and sell them on happiness and joy and emotions. It wasn't about Coke. It was the way coke made you feel. Or wasn't about the orange juice. It was about how orange juice makes you have a good day. That was my dad. So I remember hearing kind of that ad agency guy coming out. He's not selling me on, you know, the vehicle. He's not selling me on camping. He's selling me on, like, imagine what the roads of America will teach you about yourself. He's telling me on vision. And I'm hearing this and I'm going, I don't want any part of this. You know, this guy, like, is, you know, again, inner child, comes up talking about all the games that he missed, all the times he grounded me, all the times that he didn't really show up in the way that I expected him to. And then this voice came in my head. And I referred to this voice pretty much like Foster from Lion King, right? The James Earl Jones type voice. And it's a very loving voice. And I had heard that voice one other pivotal time in my life on the brink of my own. Brink of my own suicide attempt. And that voice popped up and the voice said to me, michael, you need to go on this trip with your dad. It might be the only one that you get with him. And when you hear those words and you have that resentment with your father, something of that magnitude, and again, God, source, universe, spirit, whatever you choose to believe in. There was something that was not my own voice that was telling me, here's Your dad, he's 74 years old. How long are you really going to hold on to this crap? Like, think about. For everybody out there right now, like, how long are you going to allow yourself to hold on to something that has been long gone, that you cannot change, but yet you're still holding onto that weight that's keeping you from obtaining all the things that you want in your life? So for me, Connor, here I am having resentment towards my dad, and this voice pops up and first thing I think about is, I have to go on this trip. Because what if it is the only trip? My dad's not a young man. I don't know how many years he has left. I mean, thank God he's able to drive. But there's a lot of people in this country that are his age and then their mid-70s that are. That maybe don't have the privilege of driving. If I'm lucky, Maybe I got 10 years left of him in optimal shape. I mean, he's in great shape now, but maybe 10 years, I'm lucky. I don't know how long he's going to be able to do this. So I went and the first step to that whole entire piece of the process of forgiveness, like we were talking about in the beginning of the show, the art of letting go and forgiveness is really being able to see that I have to accept him and I have to accept the circumstances. I can't go back and change my life and I can't change the way that my dad parented me, but it can change the way that I look at my dad. I can change my relationship to my dad and how he acted. See, most of us have problems with the person itself. Well, dad let me down and dad did this. Dad's not the problem. It's your relationship to your father and his actions that is the problem. And that's really, for me, the major critical point in the healing of my relationship with my dad was sitting in a car with him for four days, five days at that time frame, and listening him tell me stories about Woodstock and entrepreneurship and, you know, moving to California and, you know, that's where I'm originally from, and raising myself and my four. My three other brothers. You know, I'm the oldest of four boys. And seeing the choices that he made and the sacrifices he went through and recognizing also at that time that the reason why he didn't show up to my games, Connor, wasn't because that he cared more about money than me is because his generation of men were taught that your value is in your provision, that your job is to bring food on the table, and in that traditional family role, that was your job and your sole job. So it wasn't my dad didn't care or love me or prioritize me. It was my dad was providing for me. And I had a great childhood. From paper. I mean, my dad wasn't struggling. I went to a good school, I went to a good college. You know, I went to a public high school that was pretty decent as well. And my dad did the best to make sure that I wasn't worrying about anything else but school. So that acceptance piece was so huge for me to realize that, you know, I have these expectations. My dad is supposed to be something, you know, supposed to be the father that shows up all the time. But he's a human being. He could only do what he did at the time that he had it. And so I had to accept him for that if I really wanted to move on with my life. And anybody who wants to move on with their life, whether it's your dad or whether It's a past relationship or whether it's, you know, a memory from your past and you're feeling that heaviness right now. Ask yourself if you're willing to accept where you are right now because of the outcome of that situation.

Do you feel or do you think now, based on the experiences that you've had with him, based on this, this journey and this conversation, that the longing that you had for him was that there was something in you that wanted more depth of the relationship between you and him as a child? Because I think one of the things that I've heard a lot of men talk about is the yearning for a sense of meaning in their relationship with their father that I think a lot of men haven't known how to provide. Right. Like you talked about provision and I think you're right. I think previous generations, it was like, survive, put food on the table and make the money to, to pay the mortgage and to put kids through school and stuff like that. And so we've kind of have a few generations of men that haven't known how to provide initiation, you know, that haven't known how to provide these sort of meaningful, depth oriented experiences that you then got later on in life. Right. Like this 11 day trip is sort of like your dad creating this sort of pseudo initiation, you know, into, into manhood of saying, I realized that maybe we didn't have enough time together, whatever it is, right. So do you feel like that's part of the role of a father is to create these depth oriented moments, experiences with a son? Like, why do you feel like those are valuable? I'd love to, for you to like hear some insight on that.

Yeah, well, I mean, I think we, we talked it, we touched on it a little bit in the kind of somewhere in the beginning of this podcast, right in the middle where we were talking about, you know, that we look to our dad to set the example. I mean, they're the next thing to God for a lot of young boys. And for me, my dad was the guy that was like, that's how I was supposed to be. I was supposed to be successful in business. I was supposed to be a business major, I was supposed to be a businessman, you know, and then I was supposed to work on cars and I was supposed to do all of these things and follow in his footsteps because he seemed like he was doing pretty well, so why not? But when you're also a kid, you don't have a whole lot of male role models or examples outside of sports coaches. So for me And I should say there's other role models that I think young boys have, but, you know, to take a step back, I think there's other role models that young boys have, but your father is the main one. I want to clarify that your father is the main one. There are other ones, but you always look at dad, and you always will look at dad, no matter if he's actively involved or not. So, you know, for me, I think for dads, your main responsibility is to set your kids up for success in life. In my opinion, it's also to set them up for success in life, to give them a life better than what you have. Like, true mentorship, right, is to allow your kids to pass you in accolades, to pass you an accomplishment, to pass you as a dad. You know, you could be the best dad in your world. And I think, personally, your job is to make sure that your kid is a better dad than you, to really set that precedent, you know, and to really set that, set them up for success with that. So, you know, I think for me, the initiation that I went through in my life, and again, I think also something that's really been profound for me is this concept of time. You know, everybody's in a rush to make a million dollars, have kids, settle down the Ferraris and the Lamborghinis, and try to do it all before the age of 40. Some of us don't get that healing. Some of us don't achieve that financial success. And that's what's so beautiful about life, is everybody's on their own unique path. And for me, I waited 30 years to get this moment with my dad. And I reflect back on it from time to time. Connor and I go, man, were there other windows of opportunity that I could have healed my relationship with my dad? And I think about it and I go, no, because that was the trip that was supposed to happen that way. That was my initiation, so to speak. My dad said, hey, listen, I know you and I haven't had a really good relationship, but I'm doing my best right now to reach across the aisle and extend my hand and say, hey, look, if this is all we're ever going to be, I'm okay with that. But I just want to let you know, son, I love you, and I'm sorry I couldn't give you what you wanted at the time. And then also in that acceptance, the other part of the forgiveness piece for me was I had to forgive myself because I had harbored all this resentment and anger towards him. And here he was showing me, you know, through his actions, more than less of his words is telling me like, hey, I did the best I could with what I had at the time that I had it. Were you willing to accept that, Mike? You're right, I am. I am willing to accept that.

Yeah. And I think sometimes it's also on us to extend the olive branch across the aisle. You know, I think, because I can hear a lot of the men that I've worked with is like, well, my dad's not gonna reach out. He's not making that phone call, you know, and so, you know, I think there's also merit in us using our own discernment to say, maybe part of my growth, maybe part of my development, pushing myself, is to create that, that invitation, that opening to say, hey, you know, to pick up the phone and say, hey, dad, like, do you want. Would you be open to going to do this experience? You know, would you be open to have this conversation? And I think that that invitation can come from us as well. Curious. Just, I know that we don't have a ton of time left, but I would love for you to speak a little bit more around forgiveness and what it took for you as a man to find forgiveness towards him. You've given some, you know, you've alluded to it quite a bit, but also what it took for you to forgive yourself a little bit more. Were there certain steps, were there certain actions? Were there certain conversations you had to have? Because I think forgiveness is a very elusive concept for a lot of men, and they're hard, harboring a lot of self loathing and resentment towards others that they just don't know how to let go of. And so I'd love for you to just maybe close out this conversation with. With the tacticals if. If possible.

Yeah, another multimillion dollar question. Right? So. So forgiveness to me is the most powerful tool on the face of the planet. It just really is. With forgiveness, lies, compassion, love, all sorts of emotions. And for me to really embody forgiveness is the art of letting go, is the art of acceptance, and also is showing love and grace and compassion for yourself. So being able to forgive my dad came down to, you know, my dad did the best he could, and he was just trying to do everything he could to give me a better life than the one that he had. So am I really going to hold onto this for the rest of my life? Because I already knew how much damage it was doing to me because I was settling, because I actually was acting out and saying I'm not going to give myself a chance to really earn. I'm not going to give myself a chance to be successful because I'm just going to act like him. But there was also this thought that came to me on that trip, Connor, which was what actually happens if I just forgive him and just let it go. What could get created in that void of resentment and weight and guilt and shame, an embarrassment that I had been holding onto for all those years. What could actually be created and something really powerful happened on that trip was when I really, truly embraced him and saw him for who he was, my life completely changed and opened up. And before I get into, like, what happened with that, I just want to touch on a kind of some tactical stuff on the forgiveness piece is that if anybody out there right now is truly struggling and your dad is not calling you and you're, you know, you had said it before. You've worked with some of the men who have said, you know what? Dad's not reaching across the aisle. Are you willing to accept those conditions? Are you willing to forgive yourself? Are you willing to accept yourself in the way that it is? And you may never get closure. Closure is a gift. It is not a responsibility. It is, excuse me, it is not a right. Closure is not a right. You don't get closure. It is anybody who's been in a relationship, it is not mandatory. Nobody has to give you anything for that. And you know what? That includes your mom and dad. They don't have to give you any sort of closure. And more than likely they're probably not going to because as you get older, you get stuck in your ways. And it's really, really hard at times to just, you know, take a step back, remove yourself from the situation. And so are you willing to forgive yourself? Are you willing to accept yourself? Are you willing to let it go? And if you can do that for yourself, you can do that for other people. It's obviously a little bit easier when somebody apologizes, like my dad, you know, innately did through his actions of saying, hey, son, I just want to have something with you just like you do with me. So from, you know, if you look at it from a tactical standpoint, being able to sit down and write and being a writer, I love. I love pen to paper. I know people love the keyboard and listen, I write a lot of my stuff online, obviously sitting in front of a computer and, you know, drinking a cup of coffee and just churning out a post. But there's something very, very powerful about taking a pen, writing it down on a piece of paper and journaling your thoughts and your perspectives. And one of the things that I want to share with everybody here is what is it exactly that you're holding onto against your parents? Then the second question is, are you willing to let that go? And then the third question in that is, what do you want to create after you let that go? And you'll notice there's a huge effing gap, man. Like, there is a huge gap that is there when you just let go of, like, you know what, dad wasn't that great, but that's okay. Still love you, dad. I'm going to get on with the rest of my life. Here's this massive chunk of my life that has nothing in it. And you could either see that as glass half empty or glass half full. And for me, it was glass half full. How much money do I want to make? What do I want my business to be like? What do I want my romantic relationship to be like? What do I want my friend circle to be like? Because no longer was I sitting there looking through the lens of resentment. I was now looking through the lens of opportunity. And that's true creation is if you are willing to forgive yourself for harboring any sort of resentment towards your parents or even towards yourself, and you're willing to let that go and move on, chalk it up as a loss or, you know, just say, hey, you know what? Lesson learned. I learned something from that. You can now move forward with your life. You can create whatever you want, and you're free to do so because you're not going, oh, I want this million dollar house. But you know, dad didn't come to my baseball game anymore. And it's a grieving process, Connor. It really is. It's not going to happen overnight. But I'll tell you right now, if you answer those three thick questions and you really get super clear on that and you put the time and the energy into it, things will move incredibly fast for you as they did for me.

I appreciate that. Those pieces are good. One of the ways that I would. I mean, I would just add this last piece in because I think it actually fits in with what you just said really, really well, which is one of the ways that I've looked at forgiveness is the letting go of the debt that we think is owed to us. Like, from a biblical standpoint, that's what forgiveness actually meant. You know, if you look at different religious containers and frameworks in spiritual leaders, you'll see different versions of, of that. But that's always helped me because I think even with my own father, I felt like he owed me. You know, it's like, you owe me something. You know, you owe me time, you owe me attention, you owe me love, you owe me validation. You owe me, you know, the guidance that you didn't give. You didn't. You owe me these things or you owe me safety, you know, you owe me, like, whatever it is. Right. And so I found that for a lot of individuals, getting in touch with what we think was owed to us or is owed to us, and then saying, I'm going to wipe that deck clean, I'm going to consciously let that go. Whether we write a letter, whether we have the conversation, whether, you know, whatever it is, I've always found that to be really, really powerful and potent. Listen, man, this has been an awesome conversation around dad forgiveness. I mean, the military brotherhood. Like, we. I feel like in 50 minutes we managed to touch on some really, really important aspects and avenues of manhood and masculinity. For people that want to learn a little bit more about you and the book, the Road Ahead of Miles behind, where can they go to follow along with your journey?

Yeah, absolutely. So you could buy the book first and foremost on Amazon and Barnes and Noble. I really appreciate all of you that support and buy this book more so because the book is so much bigger than me to tie it all back, tie this whole thing on a bow about connecting to a mission. I really want to help people heal. I want to teach people the power of forgiveness and letting go so that they can create abundance, joy and love in their life. And I'm doing that through the lens of sharing this story, story about my father and I. So any support for the book would be incredibly helpful. It's a short read, it's a quick read, and it's something I'm incredibly proud of. More so because my dad and I are good now and we have a great relationship. I also post a ton of free content on Twitter and on Instagram as well. So you can just follow me there at Mike Ligori L I G U O R I on Instagram and then on Twitter it's at Mike liguoriano diet. Awesome, brother.

Well, I appreciate you. And we'll have the links for all that in the show notes so you can go and follow along with Mike's journey. Definitely pick up a copy of the book and share this episode with somebody that you know needs to hear it. Will enjoy it. Right? Man it forward. Don't keep this to yourself. If you there is a man in your life or anybody in your life that you think, hey, this conversation would be good for them to dig into, forward it to them, send it to them. And that's it for today. That's it for this week. So as per always, thank you so much for joining. And until next week, this is Chris Connor Beaton signing off.