Stefanos Sifandos - Repairing Infidelity, Why We Cheat, And Leaky Sexual Energy

We all strive for perfection in our own ways. For the masculine, it's generally through a feeling of emptiness, freedom, and a sense of depth in the world. For the feminine, it is in fullness, feeling whole and connected to all things. It is both our conscious and unconscious expectations of perfection that fuel who we are or who we become. So that's a little quote from my guest today, Stefanos Sifandos. And he has over 15 years of experience in the personal development space. He is trained as an educator, behavioral scientist, and relationship expert with an extensive background in psychology, philosophy and ecology. He's passionate about and committed to leading people to their highest potential and to each other. His philosophy merges the best of Eastern and Western methodologies to promote spiritual balance and empower people in life and love. So he has worked with a lot of people. I mean, there's more that I could give you about his background. But let me tell you a little bit about our conversation today. We talk quite a bit about infidelity, the truth about infidelity, recovering from infidelity, why we cheat, how to heal from it. And Stefanos and I both share a good amount about our personal experience with infidelity, having both been on the side of the serial cheater. So we talk quite a bit about that and how to go about repairing from infidelity. That's the first part of the podcast. So if that's not necessarily relevant to you, you can sort of skip forward to the latter half. But I would say it's a very interesting conversation. Even if you haven't experienced infidelity in your life. It's just a very fascinating conversation because we tie in psychology of infidelity, some of the background of what happens, why we cheat. So it might just give you some good context and insight. And then we start to talk about sex and we talk about leaky sexual energy in relationships. We talk about how to direct our sexual charge within relationships. We talk about sexless marriages and how to actually bring a deeper sense of polarity and sexual arousal and charge into your relationship. So this one's really all about sex in many different ways. So I hope that you enjoy this. This might be a great episode to send to your partner, send to a friend that's in a relationship that's dealing with some of these things that's trying to recover from infidelity, that is maybe in a sexual dynamic where there's sexlessness happening within the relationship, which is quite common. And so I hope that you enjoy this conversation and without any further delay, please welcome Stefanos, all Right. Stefanos. Welcome to the man talk show. How you doing today, brother?

I'm well, my man. Great to see you.

Great to have you here, man. It's been long overdue. Long, long, long overdue. But let's dive in, man. I feel like we've got some good conversation to have. Tell us. Let's start with. Tell us a story about a defining moment in your life that made you who you are today.

I think the. The. There's two parts to that question is the defining part in who I am today, which. Which still definitely matters. I was going to share with you the moment I heard you say tell a story about a defining moment. I immediately thought about my daughter being born approximately 11 and a half weeks ago. And of course, that has definitely changed who I am today. And I can really feel the impact of that whole journey. But I'll share that if you don't mind. And what I'll actually share is something that happened probably a lot longer ago. And that was when and I. And I shared this story. I've shared this story before, but that is where I literally came into my own self. It was tough because my partner at the time discovered that I was cheating on her. And there was a rabbit hole of that. We went down that very deeply. And it wasn't just I cheated once. It was repetitive, continuous cheating, basically for the vast majority of our relationship. And being confronted with that and being confronted with the pain that I witnessed in her and the shame that was coming up for me was a massive catalyst for me to make very sincere change in my life. And that really prompted my journey into the depths of me in ways that I'd never explored before. I'd explored it before then, but I'd always go deep and then pull out really quickly because I was unwilling and just fearful to. To face myself in that way. But that event, that experience, and then spending months together, actually, which was quite. Looking back now, what a gift. We. We actually spent. Instead of breaking up immediately, we spent months attempting to repair. And the wisdom and the lessons and the teachings that. That I got from that, because we could have broken up and I could have just said, you know what? I'm going to change. I'm definitely going to change. And I could have changed and I could have gone to the core and the roots of all that, of those issues and literally made changes in my life. However, having to face her every day, moments upon moments every day, and continue to be honest, because honesty wasn't something that I was accustomed to. And it wasn't something that I was living in, that there. That was what really helped me shift it was having to be with that is. Is. I don't want to say forcing myself, but not giving myself any choice but to be with that and face all of it and see and witness and feel the pain in her and not try to justify, not try to defend it, but take deep ownership of it, you know, because it's easy to do that with a new partner. They don't have the historical context. They don't have the pain that you've caused them, so to speak. And so we. We almost get away with things in that. In that way. I didn't get a chance to get away with anything. That, for me, was deeply, deeply defining, man.

Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that, and it's interesting. So I want to actually dig into that a little bit, because, I mean, that's what set me on this path in the first place, you know, a decade ago, where I was, like, a chronic cheater, you know, infidelity in almost every single relationship and so much shame around it. And it was almost always a relationship ender. And then there was one relationship where, you know, it showed up. And I had been trying to sort of, like, clear through this pattern of infidelity. So I'm curious for you, what was some of the wisdom of that infidelity like, as you sat in that relationship? What did you start to understand, maybe more deeply about yourself? What led you to that pattern of cheating? Because I think for a lot of people, that can get stuck in infidelity, and I use that term, I use it lightly with air quotes, but they can feel like they're stuck. You know, it's like, I'm cheating. I can't stop cheating. I don't know why I'm necessarily cheating. Um, I'm curious for you. How did you break that pattern? What. What was revealed about you or your past that had led to that pattern of. Of infidelity?

Well, the. The pattern breaking came from not using it as a crux to escape anymore and making a very proactive choice in that is to explore what my world looks like and feels like without leaning into the coping strategy of sex or love. Compulsion, sex compulsion, validation through sexual intimacy, validation through sexual contact and pausing. That really did force me to face all of myself. And what I discovered was the pattern for me. And there were several patterns, but the predominant pattern for me was one of freedom. And so I yearned and desired to be an intimate relationship. However, my childhood experiences demonstrated to me that intimate relationships Aren't safe because my family was quite violent. My mother and father were violent with each other, violent with us, abusive, always fighting intention. And so my primary examples of being an intimate relationship wasn't really healthy and it wasn't connected yet. A part of me also yearned for intimacy and connection and that there was some healthy parts and unhealthy parts. Part of it was the codependent side of me that needed validation through others and needed to be approved through by others that that was contributed to or by the enmeshment with my mother, her emotional unconscious projections onto me because her needs weren't being met by my father. Coupled with. I wanted to impress my father. I wanted him to see me, like really, really see me. But he was never available. And so being an intimate relationship was something that I desired because I also genuinely wanted to give and wanted to be present to relationship and explore relationship and explore myself through relationship. I had that in me. I knew that was a reality. But anytime we would get close and anytime we would become vulnerable with each other and real with each other more open, it required more of me to step forward, to show my heart, to take risks. I panicked. My nervous system panicked. Because also when I was younger, anytime I was myself, at least this was my perception. And maybe it's a better statement to make is so much of the time when I was. When I was me, I would be reprimanded, I would be hurt, I would be teased, I would be humiliated, I would be rejected. And so coming into deeper closeness with my partner terrified me. I literally felt like I was experiencing annihilation. And the way that I coped with it because I was being, being constricted. I wanted to expand. I wanted quote, unquote, freedom or the sense of it. I would run to sexual part, different sexual partners, variety and novelty. Because the excitement, I would hide in the peak experience of the hormonal flush, But I would hide in the peak experience of the anticipation, of the chase, of the pursuit. Yet I wasn't courageous enough and honest enough to step into that relationship and say, hey, these are my needs or these are my desires, irrespective of where they may come from. I didn't understand that at the time, but this is what I need. I just thought, well, what she doesn't know won't hurt her. And I still love and care for and I'm good in all these other places, therefore this is just quote unquote normal. And that's how I justified it. But I was still caught in cycles of guilt and shame. And it was. It was a. Oh, man. Like yourself, you know, it was nearly every relationship. It was pretty much every relationship except for two, really the one that I'm in now and the one before this one. I was just out of control because I was in so much pain and I wasn't addressing my trauma. There are some of the patterns and some of the why behind that course of action. Also, I will say that there was parts of me that wanted to explore non monogamy, but I was too ashamed and too scared to do so. And so I did explore non monogamy, but I explored it in a non consensual way. I explored it in the shadows.

Yeah, I get that. I definitely walked that path for a number of years of exploring open relationships without the open relationship. And, you know, I think one of the things that really hit home for me and was a huge. Was a huge challenge and something that I had to work on post the infidelities was that I had kind of. And I don't know if this is true for you. I'm curious to get your thoughts on this because I've seen this with a lot of men who have been unfaithful chronically or even a few times, which is I had separated love and fucking. Like, I had separated love and sex. And so it was almost like the more close, the more loving I found myself in my relationship, the more I wanted to go out and have sexual partnerships. And I think, you know, a huge part of it is that fear that you're talking about, the fear of intimacy, the fear of closeness. But I think, you know, I've seen a lot of men, even if they're not unfaithful, struggle to merge those two things, you know, the love and the sex within a dynamic. So can you speak a little bit more to how you began to heal some of those patterns, undo some of those patterns of, you know, the closer you got to intimacy, the further away you would run.

Yeah, the primary thing was realizing that that was a crux because so I couldn't see the forest, the trees, and I. I knew I had to work with someone. I knew I needed insight outside of my own mind and my own being. And so I worked diligently with coaches and psychotherapists, psychologists, psychiatrists, counselors, shamans, spiritual healers, guides. Like, I really went in and lent in. And that's part of my extreme personality as well.

Right.

Like, to the point where at that time I'd given up a couple of my businesses, I had no income Coming in, I was using credit, my credit cards, like I was digging a hole, a financial hole for myself. But I almost did. I didn't care. I was so fixated on healing and so fixated on understanding myself and moving beyond these patterns that I would do anything. And I did, I really did. Thankfully, all that deep work of many years got me to a place now where I don't have that debt anymore. And I don't. My relationship to business acumen and financial acumen is very different because of that deep work. It really is. And so the first thing was to stop using sex as a crux, to stop visiting prostitutes and massage parlors, to stop pursuing in that way, from that energy, in fact, to stop pursuing full stop in. Our friend John calls it a no feminine diet. I really went into that place, you know, no masturbation, no pornography. I really went cold turkey. And I had to sit with my feelings, man. I had to sit with my emotions. I had to sit with everything that came up. The memories, the thoughts, the body sensations. There was so much I spent in solitude, so much of my own time with myself. What I replaced that sex with was time with myself being proactive in working on this stuff, spending time in nature and moving my body. Even in my darkest days where I wanted to commit suicide and very strongly thought about it and nearly attempted multiple times, I would still exercise. Even if I had tears rolling down my cheeks, I would still exercise, I would lift heavy weight, I would challenge myself. And that was a non negotiable for me. It was the only fixture in my life, that and the ocean. And that's what really helped give me context into a new version of me. Couple that with, you know, at least eight months intensely working through this stuff with my previous partner, where that all became unraveled. That was again, at the time, deeply challenging, but deeply healing. And that's, that's how I really began to undo it. It was a process, man. I literally told myself seven seconds at a time, if I can get through the next seven seconds, I'm doing okay. Like that's, that's, that's the point it hit, man.

I almost couldn't get myself unmuted there because I was like, yeah, I, I get that. I understand that. I've been there. I was like, I was in that exact spot having like flashbacks.

I can actually feel you. I can, I. I can see the resonance in your, in your body language, in your face when I'm, when I'm sharing this. Like, you really?

Yeah, I'm like, I'M like, yeah, I get. I get all of that. You know, I. The. The moments of, you know, contemplating suicide. And I mean, I lived out of the back of my car for a few weeks after everything sort of fell apart because I had so much pride and I didn't want people to know what a fuck up I had been in my terms, right? Like, at that time, I was like, you know, I'm such a fuck up. And I really thought I was broken. You know, I thought that there was something fundamentally wrong with my hardware and my software. And that was an interesting thing to come to terms with, you know, to see that I wasn't a broken man. I was just a man who was hurting and to separate the two. Because I think I had always been pursuing this notion of, like, oh, I'm broken, and so I have to figure out what's wrong with me so that I can go and fix that rather than, no, I'm a man who's been given some real pain and he hasn't been taught how to deal with that pain and how that pain's manifesting is through these maladaptive techniques and behaviors. And so, you know, I want to go. I almost want to, like, double back on the infidelity within the relationship because I think I can hear my audience asking, like, how do we begin to piece back the relationship after infidelity? You know, can it be healed? And if it can be healed, what are the sort of requirements, the prerequisites for healing a relationship post infidelity, in your opinion, based on the work that you've done in your own life and then the work that you've done with people?

Yeah, it's a really powerful question, man. And for me, the answer is an absolute yes, it can be repaired if both partners are willing, if the timing is right for them, if their dharma intersects at that point. You know, if their karma and dharma intersects at that point. There are many variables that impact that, but it's very much possible. It wasn't possible for us, for my partner and I at the time. And I. I genuinely did deeply care for her and I did deeply love her. And again, you know, I can feel emotions coming up with respect to the pain that I caused.

Can I just jump in there real quick? Because I think one of the things that is often confusing both for men and for women is how can you genuinely love someone and cheat on them? And I've. I got that all the time. And so I would just love for you to speak to that, because I think it's a valuable question to dig into.

It's really quite simple. Our patterns of pain and aversion to the pain dominated everything else in our lives and they become a priority and numbing that pain and avoiding that pain becomes a priority. And it is selfish and it is self absorbed and at some level it is part of our inner selves, our childlike selves, our younger selves stuck in that moment that is making decisions. But we appear to be making decisions as an adult self. That's not the case. It's that part of our nervous system that is 6 or 7 or 10 years old that is quite self absorbed and orientated in that way. And it's all about survival. We're stuck in survival patterns and that outweighs the genuine care and love that we have for someone else. And that's why it's so confusing. Connor?

Yeah, I mean I, I am remembering a quote like my wife has been writing a book called the Origins of youf and it's all about family systems and she, in it, she talks about part of Gabor Mate's work where he says, you know, sometimes we abandon our own authenticity in order to keep an attachment to a parent. And so we never really form who we are. And I think in this it's kind of the reverse. It's like the attachment isn't safe and so we abandon the attachment for what we think is quote unquote authentic, which is actually just maintaining that pain and that wounding and that suffering and that shame of like, I'm not good enough. And so in some ways we prioritize and we attach to the pain itself because it was the only thing that was there, which is hard for, for some people, I think, to be with. But does that resonate for you? Like, does that feel true to your experience?

Yes, it very much does.

And so, so when we look at reconciliation post infidelity, can you maybe just speak a little bit to. This isn't what I intended for us to talk about. But you know, once you shared your story, I was like, oh, well, we have to go down that pathway because, I mean, I feel like a bit of a mirror in terms of, you know, what you've gone through and what I've gone through. And I don't think that I've maybe talked about this enough on the show about dealing with infidelity from the lens of the person who has been unfaithful. Where does that work begin? Where does, like, where do they need to start looking? What does that work look like?

It's much of what I've mentioned, it's seeking and being in resonance with modalities and teachers, space holders, essentially, people that are going to meet you with compassion, non judgment, that are more of a neutral space that can hold you through your shame so that you can begin to release your shame. Because I was holding on to so much shame and I was playing in the shadows, in the darkness. And when we bring shame to light, we diffuse its power. And sometimes those that are very close to us that we've hurt, they necessarily can't do that for us, nor probably should they. And so, you know, it takes a tribe to, to a village to raise a child right at the level of maturity that most of us operate in society. Our partners can't be everything to us, and nor should they be. We're relational beings that are able to touch so many, right? And we. I have so many beautiful relationships, empowering relationships in my, in my life outside of my wife. And our relationship is fucking epic as well. And it comes with challenges and we work through those challenges. And I want to be in the presence of other people as well, you know, men and women in terms of who I am in the world and how I learn and grow and all those things. And so that was a big thing for me, is actually seeking, was seeking support outside of me, which was very difficult for me because I was that lone wolf. I would do everything. I was the one people went to for advice and guidance, and I prided myself on that. And, and honestly, a lot of that came from wanting to be needed and wanting to be seen. It was coming from woundedness within self. And part of it was again just my genuine desire to support others in this world. And you know, when I was younger, when I was six years old, I wanted to be United Nations Secretary General because I, I thought that the United nations was like this big global. Well, it is global organization. I've become a little wiser since then that was there to help people in need, you know, children and so forth. I related to the children that I would see in developing nations in pain. So that was being. That's been in me for a long time. You know, John demartini says our voids become our values. Our greatest voids become our greatest values. And, and I see that in myself. And back to your original question around, you know, how do we begin to heal that? Firstly, it's. It's an inside job. We have to go within ourselves and take responsibility for that. Then we both need to. In the partnership, if we've hurt each Other or one person has really hurt the other. It is about being willing, being willing and wanting to continue the relationship, but not as it was, but as it potentially could be. And we get to create that together. Right? The other part, which is probably one of the biggest things in relationship, is can you let the water just flow under the bridge? Right? And this is, this is one of the biggest things, is that a partner, or both partners will hold tremendous resentment, and they won't be able to let that go because they're not doing the somatic work, they're not doing the trauma release work. They're not able or willing and. Or willing to really go through that process. And that's the fire, that's the crucible, that's the hero's journey in relationship in this context. And if people are unwilling to do that and they hold on to the resentments, it keeps circling back up. Because the lens by which you see your partner is through an old lens. No matter what they do and how they show up, you will still see them through the lens of, they hurt me, they're an enemy, they are a threat. And beyond that, it is a beautiful opportunity for both of us to look into our own stuff and peer deeply into that and say, what's my role here and what's the benefit here for me? How can I grow from this? You know, why is this happening? For me, those types of questions. But getting to that point requires deep, deep release. We have to create spaciousness in our nervous system, somatic release and, and trauma release. And if we're not doing that, we won't be able to reconcile in any capacity.

Well said. I mean, I feel like from the person who maybe perpetrated the infidelity, perpetrated might not be the right word, but the person that, you know, took part in the infidelity talking, you know, finding the people that you can go and work with, the space holders, as I think you called them. I was reminded of Jung again, who really said that one of the first steps in the therapeutic process is confession. And oftentimes when we've gone through something like this, it's important to have a place in a space where we can go and bring all those things forward and say, I remember one of the most cathartic but also healing things that I did was with my own mentor and therapist and psychologist after everything had fallen apart, and really just sort of saying, here's everything that's happened. Here's the things that I. I feel ashamed of. Like, here's the fucking nitty Gritty, that dirty. That I just don't want anybody to know, you know, And. And that's the hard. That's like the really hard stuff. And sometimes we feel like that should come out in our relationship, that should come out with our partner. Right. And sometimes our partner will ask a lot of questions about what happened. But I think until we've had this other space where we can go and disclose and confess to all those things that we've done and gone through and etc. It's very hard to address it in the relationship because it's, you know, it's almost always hidden and it's carrying a lot of charge and etc. What about from the vantage point. You touched on it there, but what about from the vantage point of the person who. Who maybe had the betrayal happen? Maybe not to them, but. But within the relationship?

Yeah, I mean, that. That's the resentment piece there is so important. One of the things that we struggled with back then was it kept replaying. And naturally, it's human nature to want to know all the details. You know, the more we know, the safer we feel because the more information we have access to and we can make decisions that are informed based on that information. And one of the mistakes that I made that my counselor shared with me, and look, I'm sure there are varying perspectives on this, and I will call it a quote, unquote mistake, is that I, you know, my partner at the time asked for everything, all the information, all the times, every. And I sat with that for a moment. And this was. This was right at the beginning, before I sought support, I'd actually sk. I'd sought support and scheduled support, but I hadn't, you know, been in that space to, like you said, express and. And be seen and begin to release that shame and those secrets that were holding me down. I shared everything with her. She can't undo that. She can't unremember that. And if she can't genuinely release that and move out of resentment and anger and rage by actually, you know, moving through all of that rage and moving through those big emotions, then she will be stuck in that, and that will just play over and over again in her mind. And it did. And so a recommendation for me is, is it's not always a no, don't share all the details, but be really mindful of how important are the details to know. Right. Especially in those circumstances, it can cause far more pain than anything else. And sometimes we know, we share that. I didn't want to share those Details, but I did. The bigger parts of me didn't want to, but I still chose to. And sometimes we just want to share the details to relieve our own guilt, and that's. That's not healthy either.

Yeah. And on the other side, like you're saying, the forgiveness sometimes is. You know, it's almost like you said, you can't unhear some of those things, and some of them aren't necessary in the process. Sometimes they are, but, you know, that's. That's discernment for the couple and the individuals. Anything else you want to say on the topic? I mean, this is a huge topic, and I don't want to feel like we're skirting by it, but I do. I did want to talk about a few other things in this. In this conversation. Anything else you just want to touch on or say to the listener who has gone through infidelity on either side or is going through the repair process right now?

Yeah, there will be some people in. In the thousands of clients that I've worked through with throughout the years, there are some people that infidelity for them actually isn't a deal breaker. It actually isn't this massive, massive pain point. How we perceive any level of dishonesty or any. Any pain that someone inflicts upon us or that their actions inflict upon us is really determined by how we see the world and our own developmental experiences and adult experiences as well. And so if infidelity is a really big pain point for you in it, whether you're on the receiving side or the giving side or both, it's so important to explore those patterns and explore those wounds within self. And please know that it is repairable if you both desire that and if you're also both willing to transmute and transform the old behavior and the old versions of self that created that disconnected, potentially dishonest dynamic.

Yep. Well said, man. Well said. I appreciate that perspective. All right, well, let's. Let's shift gears just a little bit. We're just moving a few degrees. Let's kind of segue into. Because I want to talk about sexless relationships and marriages a little bit, which is something that I've seen, seen quite a few couples navigating through and dealing with. But I. Let's just do a couple degree turn into leaky sexual energy, because I feel like that actually pertains to this concept of infidelity, and it can quickly go there. And in the age of thirst traps on Instagram and, you know, only fans and all this types of stuff, that has now emerged within our social society and culture. It's so easy for our sexual arousal and energy to just constantly be activated. So two things. One, how do you define leaky sexual energy and what, what is it a byproduct of, would you say?

For me, leaky sexual energy is a byproduct of unresolved trauma, codependency, low self confidence, low self worth, a lack of mastery of self and understanding of self and one's needs, an inability to express one's fantasies and deep desires, a shame, a need to control and dominate. You know. Yeah, I'll, I'll pause there. On, on, on that. And what was the other question? Sorry, how do you define it? I think, I think. Cause and the, the definition are very similar, of course, but the way I would define leaky sexual energy is essentially not having control of our erotic impulses. Right. Not having mastery or connection to our erotic impulses and really being reactive to them as opposed to being proactive and responsive to our desires.

Yeah, well said. And so let's just keep turning the needle a little bit. What are the ramifications of leaky sexual energy within a relational dynamic? And how do we begin to retain that sexual arousal and that sexual energy and bring it into the relational dynamic? Because I think that's what I've seen with a lot of men when. And maybe this is just an assumption. Not maybe not an assumption, it's an observation from some of the men that I've worked with over the years is that the leaky sexual energy also happens when they have a fear of bringing their full sexual arousal and potency into the relational dynamic. And it's almost always when there's complaints about the relationship or they don't know how to have their needs met sexually in the relationship. That's also a byproduct of it. So I'm just curious to get your take on that.

Yeah. If we're speaking specifically to, to men, the male wounded lover is the man that can't contain his sexual urges. And, and again, sexual urges are a beautiful natural thing, but he doesn't know how to direct them. And again, he'll either direct them to pornography or quick fix short term gratification solutions he'll use. If he's in partnership, he'll use his partner as a container or as a vessel just to, to empty his load in. I mean, I know that does. That's. Not that it sounds grotesque, but it's not. It's natural part of us being who we are. But that's Literally how he just views it, that's what is the feminine in his life is a means to an end, right? The, the person that he's with doesn't matter whether it's a male or female. The person that he's intimate with is just something to empty his himself into. So, and that, that, see if we go into the subtleties of that, it's this relationship with emptiness and we, we often hear about the masculine representing emptiness. And so if it makes sense that when we ejaculate an orgasm, we are emptying ourselves and in those brief moments of bliss at orgasm we feel almost one and connected with all that is. And we are empty and at the same time full. The paradox of life, right? And so we don't have a deep connection to that emptiness and we, and we, we seek it through ejaculation only through these primal means. Again, nothing wrong with primal urges are a beautiful part of being human. It's just that we're so disconnected from it. And so instead of using the, the feminine as a means to an end, use, I'll just use a heteronormative example here. We see the feminine as something more than that and we see ourselves as something more than that. We don't need validation from others. We don't need to when we're in pain or discomfort because this is another part of the leaky sexual energy, it's a distraction. So when we're in pain or discomfort and could be, you know, with a colleague at work and we don't feel that we're on purpose, it could be that our children are giving us a hard time or that there's tragedy in our families or whatever it may be, difficulty, challenge, pain, instead of being met with, let me be in these emotions, allow them to move through me, let me have a healthy relationship with this part of me. Oh no, I can't be in fear, I can't be in pain. What can I do to distract myself? So it's not leak, it's not sex for everyone. Sometimes it's food, sometimes it's binge watching tv, sometimes it's let me do more in the world, let me elevate my status, let me accumulate more wealth, let me seek adrenaline junkie based experiences to distract me from the thing that I'm trying to avoid. And the leaky sexual energy can be a byproduct of that. And so there's a lot of pain around that. And then what happens is we get accustomed to being in these dynamics and the partner often feels that the Pun often feels. They may not be able to put words to it, they may not be cognizant of it, but they. They're able to feel that I'm being used here. Well, if I'm being used, what do I need to do to protect myself? There the wounded patterns come. And now we've got complementary wounding matching each other, and we've got unhealthy, dysfunctional relationships.

Yeah, well said. Well said. Okay, and so let's shift a little bit more into the area of how. How do you encourage men to start to bring their sexual energy into their dynamics? Right. So in. Into the relationships in a healthy way, in a way that's important, embodied in a way that is going to be rewarding for them, their partner, the relationship. What does that look like? And again, what are some of the. What are some of the pieces that are required of us as men in order to actualize that?

Yeah, I'll go sort of generic and then get a little more refined in detail. Healing our past wounds, healing our relationship to the feminine. If there's enmeshment or entanglement there, if there's abuse experience as a child, if there's a sense of, you know, understanding, do I feel safe in intimacy? Because sometimes leaky sexual energy is a way to avoid, again, being close. Because more variety, more novelty peak experiences. We're hiding in the honeymoon phase, in the limerence phase of relating. And as soon as that wears off, boom, we're elsewhere. Right? And we're. And we're. Again, we're objectifying. Men will objectify women as a. As a means to an end, to satisfy immediate, insatiable hunger. And the hunger, usually, it's not usually coming from. I'm a primal being, and I'm in my human physical body, and I just want to have sex. It's usually coming from a place of pain and distress, internal distress and pain. And so healing those past wounds, healing that relationship to the. To the mother, healing the co. And to the father as well, rewriting the stories of old. This is us doing our inner work. This is not being codependent anymore. This is learning to trust ourselves so that we can be trusted. Right. This is us being intimate with ourselves. This is us really identifying what are our deepest desires, what are our fantasies. If you can't share them with your partner, can you just share them with someone that you trust, respect, and revere? Even if it's another man, a band of your brothers, you're in a men's group or you just got a group of Friends or it's with your therapist. But exploring these notions outside of the confines of your own mind so you're not in stuck in this echo chamber is so useful. Then when you bring that truth to your partner, guess what happens? You give them an opportunity to say, you know what? I can. I dig that I can go down this path with you. It's uncomfortable, but it's bringing up some stuff for me. I'm going to look at that stuff and I'm curious about what you're saying or hey, I'm really clear. I'm a knowing that and you both move on in whatever ways moving on looks like for you. But we're so scared of being rejected, Conor. This is one of the. We're so scared of being abandoned. We're so scared of being humiliated. Core fears, core blocks to our intimacy. And until we address that stuff, we ain't changing, we ain't going anywhere.

Yeah. Amen to that. That's. That's a big one for sure. I feel like that's. Those are the blockers, you know, like those are the things that often stand in the way. I'm curious to get your take on power versus control within the sexual dynamics. I think that a lot of men. I mean, for myself, maybe I'll just speak personally. You know, I grew up in Northern Alberta in Canada. You know, there's lots of machismo, and it really was about sexual power and prowess, was really about, you know, notches on the belt, you know, and it was really about how many women you could sleep with and how good you were with women. And there was this, like false equivalency between your capacity to do that meant that you were somehow more of a man. And I think that what that taught me is in my younger years was to try and control women and to try and always be in control. And if I was in control, my odds were higher that she would be happier. Yada, yada, yada, yada. Right. So I'm curious to get your sense of, like, where does power fit into the sexual dynamic between men and women? Because we're, you know, we're just talking about that dynamic for right now.

You know, I see some schools of thoughts and some individuals that have a real issue with the term power and associate it with unhealthy power dynamics and unhealthy power expression such as coercion, oppression, subjugation, control. I think control and power are quite different in this context, in the context that I want to use it in. Right. And so for me, power is Being in our autonomy, our sovereignty, our self worth and being able to express that from a heart based place, from a compassionate place, from a place of I want to be in my truth, I choose to be my truth and I respect you still. And so I'm going to communicate that from a place of as much love as I possibly can and I'll be in my power. And at the same time, by taking that approach and that come from, I am giving you permission and I'm wanting you to also be in your power and share your truth. Control is very different for me. Control comes from a contracted neurological state. We're in a sympathetic activated nervous system response. We're hyper vigilant, Everything's a threat. Control is an outcome or a byproduct of that. And now when we control, we hurt other people. Because it's all about survival. It's all about us feeling okay. We become selfish and self absorbed. We are unable to be empathetic and think about and feel into what the other person's needs are because we're only focused on ours. So control is a byproduct of that. For me, it's often hurtful because it's about what do I want, what do I need and how quickly can I get it. It's all about me.

Yeah. What's interesting is that I've seen a lot of men, a lot of couples, where sex has become weaponized within the relationship. You know, it's used to, to get things, it's used as a withholding tool if somebody else hasn't done something. And I feel like that, that is like the ultimate form of control. Maybe not the ultimate form of control, but it's a, it's a huge form of control within the relationship. You know, I'm going to control sex when we have it, what it looks like when you are allowed to have it or I'm allowed to have it, or you know, all those different variables. And that can not only weaponize sex, but I think it drives people apart. So I'm gonna turn the final corner here into the sexless marriage because I feel like that, that has a little bit to do with it. From your perspective, how in the world do you think sexless marriages happen?

I know it's a very big and broad question, but I think for many of us, you know, most people don't get into intimate dynamics with the intention of, you know, I'm going to enter into a sexless part of our marriage, you know, that we'll go through a, a year or a four Year, a five year or ten year stint where we're not sexually intimate. I don't think most people intend that. So how does that come about? Where a couple can fall into a lack of intimacy, sexual intimacy within the relationship specifically?

You know, again, I think we're multi layered, multi dimensional, multifaceted beings. I think often the reason, or rather reasons are in multitudes as well. The sexless marriage or the sexless union and partnership can come from distractions, you know, too busy with life. Other focuses re prioritizing and not choosing intimacy in the relationship could be children. These aren't excuses. These are genuine reasons. But we use them as excuses when we say we want something, but we don't put in the effort and the work to actually achieve it or embody it. Right. Then they become excuses, unresolved, wounding. You know, the, the one. People not knowing themselves, people not knowing that really the best type of relationship they're in is the, the one that's in the honeymoon period. The. And, and that's just who they are. Doesn't mean they can't change it, but that's who they are. And if they don't know who they are, then they can't change or stay with that. And so the moment that the novelty and the variety or the novelty of that, the newness of that relationship dwindles and there's more depth that comes through. People aren't unwilling to do the work, they're unwilling to explore that. They're unwilling to change and grow in the relationship and with the relationship. And they're also just unwilling to settle for, oh, if this isn't exciting in this way, in the way that I think it needs to be or the way that it was, then I'm out. Right. So people, I think people, most people leave relationships way too early. People then just don't communicate. And they don't because they don't know themselves. They don't, they can't communicate their sexual desires and fantasies and what they really want in sexual intimacy and just generally in intimacy because they're scared again of being seen and what that may, what may happen in that, in that context.

Yeah, I mean, I think you nailed it with all of that. And I wanted to put a sort of emphasis on the fear part. I think we really under index and underestimate the real power that fear of intimacy holds for so many people. You know, like if I get close, you know, if you know me, if I really reveal my desires to you. Yep, I see a lot of men. You know, I interviewed Dr. James Hollis, who's a pretty famous Jungian psychologist, and he talks a lot about how the lives of men are largely governed by fear. And until we get into a right relationship with our fears and what we are actually scared of, you know, not just like the surface level stuff, like I'm kind of afraid of heights, and it's like, no, no. What are you afraid about in life? What are you terrified of in your relationship? And to explore those fears, maybe just lastly, if you can speak to. What does it look like for a reparation process to happen for a couple of years in your perspective, after a sexless period of time has taken place? How does. How does a couple start to work their way back to sexual intimacy?

Honest conversations is a starting point. Getting real with what you want and then cultivating the courage to do so. And if you can't cultivate the courage by yourself, take responsibility and ownership and work with someone. Work with a coach or a therapist or someone that can help you again, see the forest through the trees. I think continuous open conversation. You know, we were on a panel this morning and Brian mentioned something very close to my heart. Brian was one of the panel members which I've so resonate with. I get this question all the time. So you've been doing inner transformational work for seven months, yet you're attempting to unravel 35 years of pain and trauma and suppressed and repressed wounds. And you're wondering, and you're also upset at yourself because you haven't changed yet or you haven't evolved yet. We need to give some things grace and time, right? So there's conversations aren't just let's have a conversation and be done with it. They're. They're constant explorations and constant explanations of where. Like real, real honest conversations about where am I right now? Are there any resentments and regrets that I'm holding onto? Where do I want to go? Do I want to actually be in this relationship? Am I willing to put the time in the effort? Am I willing to prioritize it beyond my projects or my hobbies or spending time with my friends or even the children? Am I willing to really prioritize this relationship? And do we both want the same kind of sex? Do we both want the same level of sexual intimacy? And if we don't, that's okay. That's a starting point. Well, can we build repair from that place? And can we conjoin somewhere there, not necessarily in the middle, but somewhere on our paths? Can they join? And so I think they're really powerful starting points. Again, you can do the education, you can do courses together, a tantra courses or consent courses around consent. You know, learning about your bodies, healing, sexual shame, sexual trauma. If there's any of that present and if that's still activated within one of the individuals or both. Looking at our patterns, like all of this stuff, it goes hand in hand and you may think, well, shit, Steph, that's a lot of work. Yeah, it fucking is. That's relationship. And it doesn't always have to be doom and gloom. It doesn't always have to be a deep dive. It doesn't always have to be shadow exploration. But if ain't working in your relationship, more than likely it's because you've been avoiding the hard things and you've been avoiding the shadow.

Yeah, I feel like that's what round two is going to be of our conversation. It's just going to be you and I geeking out on the shadow and shadow work. I mean, I love everything that you said. I think the emphasis for me is really on bringing yourself back into a place in the relationship where you can allow yourself to feel the sexual pull and magnetism and pulse that you want to have around your partner. So I think for so many people as they go into that sexless marriage, they shut that part of themselves off and they literally disconnect from it, right? So they detach from that sexual arousal towards their partner. And so part of the work is allowing time, grace and energy and work effort, you know, real effort towards moving back into. I'm going to view you as my sexual partner now, not just my friend. And I'm going to reconnect to the sexual energy within me of being aroused by you and being around you. And that takes time, right? That takes physical touch, that takes a lot of exploration. That takes talking about each other's fantasies and desires and, you know, role plays that you want to maybe act out or things that you've thought about. I think all of those things have, have merit in coinciding with some of that other work that you that you laid listed out. Anything else you want to add, we're going to have to wrap up, unfortunately. I feel like this was a very brief conversation, was. It was a little quicker than normal. But you and I are going to dive into the shadow next time, which is for sure. But anything you want to leave the listeners with when it comes to sexual connection within a relationship.

Yeah. Thank you for, for giving me that opportunity to do so, brother. So, you know, this is a Topic very dear to my heart and I can clearly see is very dear to yours as well. I think probably because we've shared very what appears to be very similar experiences in this space and have a very visceral experience of this. And I just want to say to those of you that have been hurt by sexual infidelity, to those of you that have quote, unquote, caused sexual infidelity, right, there is a way through and repair really is possible. And it is about coming into our hearts. And coming into our hearts also does mean feeling the anguish and the rage and the anger and the pain and directing that out of your being and through your being in healthy ways, not necessarily projecting that onto your partners or even someone else unconsciously or reactively, but really being active and deliberate in how you move that. And if we can relate to each other from our hearts, there's such deep, deep healing that takes place even if you remain together or don't. Your individual journey, your, your, your dharma, right, Your soul's evolution will just thank you for it in all the ways and all the people that you are yet to meet. Will also thank you so deeply for doing that inner work.

Oh, love that. Appreciate that. Well, Stephanos, thank you so much for joining me today. For everyone that's out there, if you enjoyed this conversation, as always, share it with somebody that you know will enjoy it as well. Go check out Stephanos work. We'll have the links to his website, Instagram in, in the bio below on the website. And that's it for right now. Stefanos, thank you so much for joining me. And until next week, this is Connor Beaton signing off.

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