Vienna Pharaon - The Origins Of You

All right, team, welcome back to the Mantalk Show. I'm Connor Beaton, and joining me today is my wife. Vienna is going to be joining us. We're going to be talking about her first book, her new book called the Origins of you. And where better to hear her talk about the origins of you than with me? So we thought we'd have a great conversation. The subtext of the book is how breaking family patterns can liberate the way we live and love. So we go deep into sort of like the creation of our own individual origin stories, how our blueprints are made, the patterns that show up in our life, and how those patterns that, you know, some of them are great and some of them are certainly not wanted. The patterns that show up in our relationships, in our life. So this is a deep dive into her work, and the framework that she's created is incredibly, incredibly powerful. The book has had some really, really wild success already, and I hope that you go and check it out. We'll have the links in the show notes, but you can buy the book the Origins of youf everywhere and anywhere that books are sold. And it is all over the world. It's. It's global. So I hope that you enjoy it. But most of all, I hope that you enjoy this conversation because we have some great banter at the beginning. We get it caught up a little bit, and then we dive in, and it is a phenomenal, deep dive. So please welcome my wife, Vienna Faren.

The second time on sleep deprivation, but sure.

Oh, are you sleep deprived?

Yes.

Well, we're recording right now, so everybody knows that you're sleep deprived. Remember. Remember when we were, by the way, hello, wife.

Hello, husband.

I will forever and always start our conversations by saying, hello, wife, hello, just so that the audience knows. Remember when we. Right after Code was born, it was probably like a few weeks, and I think we were talking to my family or something like that, and they're like, how are you doing? And I was like, sleep depraved.

Not deprived. I was depraved. I was sleep depraved.

It was good.

It was.

So what are we doing right now? Are we recording a podcast about your first book?

We sure are.

I find it fascinating that I was technically your first interview.

You were.

I was your very first interview for your book.

And then what happened?

And then about a week ago, when I was planning to send the file to my producer and audio extraordinaire, couldn't find it.

Connor came into my office and was like, so. And you were trying to butter me up a little bit before that. And then you're like, what do you.

Mean, butter you up?

I've got some bad news. It's like, oh, okay. What? He's like, I can't find our podcast recording. So, yes, this is my first book and my second man talks recording of said book.

You know, it's a good thing I know where you live. It was easy to find you and track you down.

That's right.

But I always love our conversations. And sometimes when we're having dinner and we're just talking about life and relationships and parenting and being entrepreneurs and all the things, I'm like, man, we should record this stuff. And so I would really. I think people would appreciate our unique brand of ridiculousness in talking about everything. Life, love, business, parenting spirit, you know, just the whole. Just the whole thing.

Because you'll have to put a poll out and see.

Yeah, okay. Well, all that aside, all of the sort of banter aside, I'm here, obviously, to have a very specific conversation with you about something that I finally talked you into doing.

Just so everybody knows, read the.

Read the acknowledgment.

Oh, okay, hold on. Putting on reading glasses. Just so everybody knows, I spent, what, a couple years?

Just read the acknowledgment to everyone.

The whole thing?

No, just the part to you.

The parts of me.

Okay, you're the last one.

I'm the last one? Yeah. To my husband, Connor, my absolute greatest soul helper. You finally got me to write a book. Thank you for seeing where I can go often before I can. Two years ahead. Always.

You've shown me parts of myself I couldn't see, and you've walked alongside me with the same goals in mind. Thank you for witnessing me grieving with me and encouraging my pivots. You have inspired me to change my life in every way. That is good. I love you. That's sweet. It makes me want to tear up. Not going to lie. Hits me right in the acknowledgment button.

Yeah, right. But mostly had you read that, because quite literally, I take your advice about two years later every single time.

It's a running joke in our relationship that it takes Vienna two years to admit that I'm right about something and then take action on it.

It's so true.

Almost no matter what it. Unless. Unless somebody in her life, like a friend or, you know, like a family member, like, intervenes and, like, And. And just says basically the exact same shit that I'm saying, but just says it in a different way. Maybe. Or. Or can say it in the exact same way. And Venus, like, you know, that's a really good idea. And I'm like, you know, I've been telling you that for two years.

The best one is when I pretend like I came up with the idea.

Right? Yeah. Yeah.

Like, you know, I think I should. I think I should do this. And you're just like, come on.

It is pretty. It is pretty funny. Anyway, I couldn't be more proud of you, and thank you. You know, one of the reasons why I encouraged you and sometimes aggressively pushed you to write a book was because you're one of the most gifted writers that I've ever met. Truly. I think. I think anybody that has followed you through your career, through the last several years on Instagram, has followed you because of what you write and because of the way you write and the way that you speak to people's inner worlds and inner sanctuaries. And I think that that is such a beautiful, beautiful gift that so few people have, and you have it. And I can't wait for people to read your book because there was a number of times, and I know we're not even talking about it yet, but there was a number of times in the writing process where you would come out and read me something, and you'd read me a page or two, and. And I mean, I'd get emotional immediately, you know, and I was like, what is going on? Why is this happening? And it's just. It's really.

You know, I do think that part of your superpower is being able to describe people's inner worlds and inner workings and the reason why we are the way that we are and make the decisions that we make, you know, specifically through the lens of our family systems. But you're so good at writing about it. And just so that, you know, dear audience, that it's not just my biased husband opinion, we went into a bookstore today for Vienna to, for the first time, sign like, 50 copies of her book for. For people to. To purchase. And we walk in, and the woman behind the desk, you know, says, hi. And Vienna says, hi, I'm here to sign some copies of my book. And this woman working at the bookstore proceeds to spend, like, the next two minutes just gushing over your book and how amazing it was and how she, like, how it came at the right time. It hit home, and the stories and the writing and the whole thing. So it's not just me, but let's talk about the book. Let's talk about the book. Well, I Feel like that's. That's a good endorsement, you know. Okay, so the origins of you tell me about this title.

Wait, wait, wait. Have you told this story on any of the other podcasts about the title?

No. That you came up with it?

Yes.

No, no. I just wanted to leave that announcement for your show.

You came up with this title long ago and at first for a course that I had created, but you. Yeah, this was the working title. And I remember when I shared it with my agents at first, and Steve was like, yeah, definitely, this is. This is going to be the title of the book. And I think a lot of times that changes for people once you start to write the book or, you know, once you get the publishing team involved and let's say, say, well, this is what'll sell books better or whatever. But yeah, the. The title stuck. And you also were very supportive with the subtitle, How Breaking Family Patterns Can Liberate the Way We Live and Love. You are exceptional at coming up with titles and also for the direction of many of the things that I can lean into.

But, okay, family systems. Can you maybe like, everybody has some kind of a family system, right? But tell me a little bit about the sort of like, therapeutic side or the therapeutic lens of family systems. Is that something that you study? Is that something that is a. Is a framework? Like. Let's just. Let's just start basic here for anybody that's not familiar, because I think some people are familiar with ifs, some people are familiar with gestalt or whatever. But why family systems?

Yeah, so I'm a marriage and family therapist. That's my training. And the focus is really understanding the systems in which we grew up. And so obviously there are other influences that affect us and lead us in certain directions. Right. We have other important people in our lives outside of our families, but our families are, you know, our first template. And, you know, that family system can be made up of a lot of different people. You know, obviously, when we first hear that word, I think most people think about their parents. It can be stepparents. It can be a grandparent or an uncle or aunt who was maybe living with us. And it can also be, I have clients who would go to their neighbor's home after school from 3 until parent gets home until 10pm and that was a family system in which they existed and operated and learned a lot. And so it's very important, I think, for people to know that you don't necessarily just grow up in one family system and that that one family system you know, is your blood. Right. Sometimes it's non relatives who are a part of that. And, you know, for many folks, they have one family system. For people like us, we had two, you know, because our parents had gotten divorced. And so we learned how to exist in two different systems. And that's really important, I think, for people to recognize is that, you know, sometimes we learn, you know, that this is how I get love or connection or presence or attention in one family system. And this is how I get it in this one. Or I feel safe in one, but I feel unsafe in another. Or I feel like a priority with these people, but I feel deprioritized in another one. And so I think it's very important that we're able to explore the different systems that we do grow up in. And obviously, my work, again, like I said, even though there are a number of influences, coaches, teachers, religion, media. Right. Like, I like to look at the family system, and that's where I give most of the attention and to really understand the wounds and the pain that is created from our families and how those wounds and pain are still running the show and maintaining the unwanted patterns in our lives today.

What I think is, what I find to be interesting about family systems is, I mean, I was always keenly aware of. Yeah. System or family of origin just because I had two different families that I bounced back and forth between. And they were identical in many ways. And so I was constantly observing the differences between the two of them. And so it just makes sense to me. I think that the average person, though, when they hear family systems or like, you know, your, your family of origin or whatever the case may be, I think the average person has a pretty strong visceral response to move away from that.

Sure.

It's like, it's like, oh, shit, you're gonna make me talk about my family Like I want to talk about my mom and I want to talk about my dad. Like, why, why do therapists, why do psychologists always want to talk about my past and talk about my family? And so can you, in. In just like layman's terms and in 140 characters or less, just explain, like, why the hell do we have to talk about our families?

Well, I'm like, how can I keep this to 140 characters?

I think they've raised it to 2:40.

Yeah, I was like, I was gonna say, I think it's. It's different now. Okay.

You can tell how much we tweet you.

You, you don't, you know, you don't have to talk about your family. You can try not to, you know, but what I have seen over the, you know, with over 20,000 hours working with individuals, couples, and families is that if you can't make the change, the behavioral change that you want to make, you're like, this is the thing I want to shift. Okay, go ahead. You want to make a behavioral shift? Go ahead, try it, right? And if you can, amazing, right? But if you can't, if you keep finding yourself in the same conflict, if you keep choosing emotionally unavailable people, if you keep, you know, whatever the pattern might be, then that's our indicator that we want to look back. I know the eye roll, the elephant in the room, everything that you were just describing, like, why, why, why do we have to do that? And so much of our pain is unresolved from what happened in our families. And the goal of this book is not to turn around, hang out in the past, and stay there forever. We're not on some wild goose chase. We're not here to throw our parents or the adults in our lives under the bus. Like, that's not what any of this is about. This is about acknowledging and honoring our pain. It's about acknowledging and honoring our stories. It's about seeing what it is that wants to be witnessed and felt and understood so that we can move forward. You know, when you think about pain or wounds as an. A separate entity almost externalized from our bodies, right? If it was just like a. I don't know, like a little blob sitting next to you, I. I always say, like, pain is not out to get us. You know, our wounds are not here to destroy our lives. They're not rubbing their hands together and cackling, like, how do I screw you over?

I just get a picture of like, Mr. Burns from the Simpsons, you know, like, accident, I'm going to screw your life up.

It's like, that's. That's not what's happening, right? But it will tug at you. It will pull on your shirt. Because if you just try to brute force your way forward, if you just try to white knuckle your way through, right? It's like there's a. There's an element to the pain and the wounds that are like, you don't get to just, wait, where are you going? Right? Like, you don't get to just move on with life. There's almost a sense of either betrayal or an abandonment of the pain and why that pain wants to bring you back. It's why people are like, I keep Getting the same lesson over and over again or why do I keep doing the same thing over and over again? And that's not because we're, you know, that's fun or that's exciting for us. Right. That's your pain, saying, please acknowledge me so that I can heal. Right. So that you can then move forward without me needing to tug on your shirt and get you to turn around.

Yeah, I think. I think there's a couple of things that I've always found interesting about this. The first is, you know, we know that from a neurological standpoint, it's approximately 80% of our neurological development is done by the time that you're three. You know, so a lot of these patterns that show up emotionally in our lives, how we interact with people, our attachment style, how we, you know, feel safe or don't feel safe, how we trust people, a lot of this is just baked into our upbringing. You know, I think it's like the first seven years of our life are some of the most important. Just from, like, a developmental psychology perspective. Developmentally, within the brain, within the nervous system. And so, you know, it makes sense. I always try and, you know, go back to some connection to science for some reason. I don't know why, but, you know, I find that. That. That's always been helpful for me, just knowing, like, oh, yeah, most of our development in terms of our bodies, our minds, our nervous systems, most of that happened in our youth. And a lot of the patterns that I think oftentimes that we see within the couples that we work with or the individuals that we work with, those patterns that they're trying to break those habits, those decisions that are sabotaging their relationship or their health or whatever it is. A lot of those patterns have roots in their upbringing. And so does that land. Do you feel like that's true what I'm saying? Do you feel like that's relevant or important?

Yeah. You know, obviously our families are the first education that we get on just about everything. And sure, again, other influences at a certain point. But our families are where we learn what conflict is and what communication is and what love looks like and how we might think about ourselves or how we might think about other others or, you know, it's like our belief systems are really created there and that conditioning and programming is laid down. Right. It's like. It's the framework, it's the foundation. And, you know, when you look at that foundation or it's like, no wonder it is what kind of guides us in a particular direction. Right. And Then obviously, as I get into the, you know, with the book, I talk about five origin wounds that are really common to experience in our childhood and how that stuff comes along with us and it's dictating our lives and maybe obviously obvious ways, or you might be listening, like, yeah, I know I can connect that dot. Like, that's exactly why I do this. Or this is. You know, but there's also really subtle ways that it comes forward.

Yeah. I mean, I think one of the things that I love about the book that you wrote is how simple it is. Right. It's just like you're not simple in the content, but simple in the structure. Right. It's like your past is your present and then being able to name the wounds. And I find that, you know, sometimes the most effective books that are out there, like the Five Love Languages, the framework is. Is straightforward. And I think that you've done a good job of that, maybe. Do you. Do you think that there's anything else that we need to say about our past being our present? Because here's where I'm coming from. I know how many people have a natural aversion to talking about their past. And so I feel like. And maybe I'm spending too much time on this, and you can tell me that we should just move on, but I feel a natural wanting to pause on this part and make a case for being able to talk about our past. And maybe that's not even necessary for my audience. Like, maybe my audience is sort of bought into that. But anything else that we should touch on, on that front, any other thing that we should talk about about why people are so averse to talking about their past? Because. Because maybe the people that are listening to this, they are people who would talk about their past and explore it, but they're surrounded by their parents who don't want to talk about their past or upbringing, you know, friends, a partner that doesn't want to talk about their past.

Yeah. So, you know, I think a lot of times people are scared of opening up Pandora's box and, you know, facing what might be in there. A lot of people feel like they've gotten their relationship with their family to a certain point, you know, where it's like, okay, this is okay, we're good.

This is manageable.

Yeah. And the idea of opening something up can feel a bit scary and threatening to that things. Other people have a deceased person in their family, and the idea of coming into contact with something and then not being able to reconcile it or be able to talk about it and, you know, just not have access to that person and kind of feel like, what do I even do with this information if they're not even here, you know, for me to. To address it? And then we have the. The story that we hear from so many is. Is, you know, my family, my parents, they did the best they could with what they had. And whenever we take an approach like that, right. We are protecting ourselves or others from something. A lot of times we idealize our family. And so the idea of them coming down a notch can feel a bit overwhelming. Right. And so there's, like, there can be a lot of really valid resistance to going back and opening something up. And so what I love about this book is that you can pick this book up and you can choose not to do any of the practices in it. Right. But what you will do is you'll read the stories, very powerful stories of a lot of people I've worked with. And I find that even if a person is not ready to go there yet, right. If they're like, yeah, I'm definitely not interested in opening up Pandora's box, right. Or, like, I don't want to know what it is that I would find, or I don't have memories. And so how can I even do this work? Right. Is that you will be reading really powerful and profound stories of other people, and you will see yourself in someone. I'm sure of that. Or you'll see a partner in someone that you read, or you'll see a sibling or a parent or your adult child. And there's something really beautiful about coming close to this work when you're not necessarily in the hot seat. Right. And so I would say for people who might be a little bit nervous about it, you know, it's like, that's okay, right? This is not about forcing you to do this work. I would always want somebody to kind of walk into it with their shoulders back and kind of confident and prepared to do it. But I think you can still gain so much by reading this book and reflecting on, you know, what's on the pages.

Yes. So let's carry on past that. That point. I think that's probably sufficient in some ways. I wanted to linger on it a little bit just because I think that there's value, because I think it's just something that's very common. And I think the last thing that I would say is that many. I think many of us, many of the guys that I've worked with, because, you know, I've worked with so many men. I think there's this fear that like, once you start looking at your past, you're just going to navel gaze there forever and ever and ever. And you know, we hear the stories of like being in therapy for like 10, 15 years and it's just like, good lord, do we have to spend so much time on our past and so much time talking about this stuff? And I think one of the nice things is that for me, I found the answer is no. As I've done this work, I, you know, I did a pretty deep dive for a number of years and then kind of let it go, you know, not that I. Not that my past never gets revisited or anything like that, but I don't have to live there.

Yeah, but the past is not the past if it's unresolved, right? And that's. No, we don't want to live there.

What do you mean by that? The past and the past of its own resolved, right?

People are like, well, the past is the past. That was 20 years ago, that was 30 years ago, that was 40 years ago. There's no way that that's ruling my life today. And it is if it's unresolved, right? Like when there's irresolution, right? Like that is when we need to look there.

Can you give an example of what you mean by that?

Yeah, like that the pain from your past that you haven't been able to place it, integrate it, right? That it still has a charge within you, that there's still reactivity around it, that it's still like every time your.

Mom calls, you're pissed off, or your dad, you know, doesn't reach out to you or something like something along those lines.

Sure, yeah. I mean, I think endless examples of that. But like, yes, those, those could be examples of it, right? Where it's like you're not, you're not existing with internal peace, right? And you know, that's the goal of this book, is to get to a place where you have internal peace, where there's freedom within, where it changes the quality of your life and the quality of your relationships. And what I'm saying is that when you're carrying around irresolution, when you are carrying around pain from the past that you haven't processed, that you might not have even named properly, right? That you haven't even grieved, right? Like you cannot just try to change your life in a long lasting way, right? By avoiding it, ignoring it, distracting yourself from it, right? It's like. And so the Past can be our past once we resolve. Right. But the past is not your past when there's your resolution there.

Okay, so there's five wounds in the book. And I think, again, that's what I love about it, is that there's a simple framework. How did you come about this? Like, what are the five wounds? Why are these the wounds that our family of origin will create? I would just love for you to speak about them high level, and then maybe we'll drill down into a couple of them. Yeah.

When I sat down to organize this part, you know, I was scribbling down all the different wounds that a person could possibly have. Right. And ultimately, it felt like pretty much most of the human experience can fall under these umbrella terms, if you will. So recognize, like, we don't fit into boxes. Obviously, you can use different language if that resonates better for you.

No, use this language. We all fit in the boxes.

Right.

And so, yeah, ultimately the five wounds are the worthiness wound, the belonging wound, the prioritization wound, the trust wound, and the safety wound. So the worthiness wound. Maybe what that would have looked like for you as a child was you needed to be a perfectionist or a peacekeeper or a performer or the comic relief or, you know, anything that had conditions to it. Meaning, like, you grew up feeling like you were only able to get love, connection, attention, validation, presence, calm within the family if you did X, Y, and Z. Right. So whether that was get straight A's, whether that was become a phenomenal athlete, where you learned, like, okay, when I scored a hat trick, right. Like, that's what got me attention from a parent, or when I was really quiet, like, that's what created peace at home. Or if I. Yeah, right. Like, if I performed in some way or if I was cute enough and like that. You know, it's like those types of things that said that your worth was connected to your performance, your perfectionism, et cetera. So there's a lot of conditional stuff that plays out in the worthiness wound.

Why the word wound?

So I love this.

Just how would you define it?

I love this word because I think we all know what a physical wound is, and I think I describe it in the books. When you're a little kid and you scrape your knee and it's bleeding, you have a gash there, and a parent maybe puts a band aid on it, cleans it up, puts a band aid on it, tells you to let it get some air, then you pull that band aid off at some point, and then you bang that knee up against the side of a table and the scab falls off and it starts to bleed again and we reopen the wound. And I think that that visual for me has always been really powerful with emotional wounds. We don't see that. Right. There isn't an image for it, but it's the same idea. It's like there's an original wound that takes place. Right. A moment where there is some type of rupture, some type of betrayal. And of course it could be repeated. Certainly. Right. When I'm describing the worthiness wound, it's not like a one time event where as long as you got the a. That one time right. It's like there's a consistency to it, certainly. But this idea that as we move through life, you know, every time there is a familiar experience. Right. In essence, we're rubbing that wound up against that table again and it starts to bleed a little bit and it starts to feel like that the pain starts to surface. And so. Yeah, I love that word because I, I think that visual. Well, it, it worked for me and I, I think it might work for, for others as well.

No, I think it's. I think it's good. And, and the, the only reason why I asked was just to clarify because I think again, just sometimes we can be confronted by language, but I think it's very accurate. We sort of all carry around these wounds that oftentimes people don't see and they're not aware of. And then all of a sudden we fall in love with somebody and get close to them and intimate and all of a sudden this part of us that has been in pain for maybe a long time and we haven't known about gets activated. And then we start sabotaging and we're needy and insecure and act, you know, acting ridiculous. We can't stop texting them and all this kind of stuff. And it's like, why is this happening? And it's like, well, there's a wound there that has been present that you've either known about or haven't really known about. And it's unresolved. It's unhealed.

Yeah. So with the worthiness wound, you know, I think I have a worthiness wound. And I grew up with a father who was very present and was very loving and connected and super helpful. When I was easygoing and when I was presenting as quote, unquote difficult, then I would be punished through silent treatment. And he would give me the silent treatment for a few days or weeks on end. And I Learned that, okay, if you're easygoing, right, you get presence, connection, love, attention, support, help, acts of service was one of the ways that he would, you know, give love. And then when you are difficult, right, if you express yourself, if you, yeah, if you go against him, right, like, then all of that was withheld and it was very punishing for me. And that's an interesting one because, you know, going back to my origin story and the rupture and this, the story that I share in the book. In the beginning, my parents went through a nine year divorce process. Started when I was in first grade and they had high conflict. There was a lot of psychological abuse, manipulation, gaslighting, paranoia, emotional flooding. And it was a lot to be around. I'm an only child. I was this tiny little human in this system kind of trying to figure out what to do. And I decided that there wasn't much room for me to be, for me to not be okay, right? What I saw was two people who were not okay. There wasn't capacity for much. That was my perception of things. And so I decided to fly under the radar. I became a needless little girl. All of my core needs were met, certainly, but like, there was no space through my perception for me to not be okay. So I became really easygoing. I became unaffected, quote, unquote, by things. I was fine all the time. I was the well adjusted child that everybody was like, wow, she's so well adjusted for what she's having to go through. And I was like, I was just acting, but I share that part of it because then there was that follow up, right? To when you're easygoing, here's what's available to you. And when you're difficult, here's what's not available to you. And it really solidified this needless woman. Unaffected. Be the cool girl. Don't have needs, don't set boundaries, don't express yourself because there's a cost to that. And you know, it wasn't until my late twenties when I finally realized that I had taken on this role. I had really maintained this role role from childhood where I was able to finally, you know, open up my mouth and speak up and say I was affected by, you know, what was happening. I was dating somebody at the time and his ex came back into the picture, wanted to be back with him, and he was contemplating whether to go back with her or to stay in a relationship with me. And this was somebody I saw a future with. And you know, of course, automatically right away I'm like, absolutely like, take all the time you need. Spend whatever time you need with her. Like, it's totally fine. I get it. You must be going through so much. And I can hear myself saying that, and there's a huge part of me that wants to eye roll at that. Like, wow. Oh, that's so painful to hear, right? And yet, that was how I existed in the world. And I remember having a conversation with Mark and it all clicked in and I was like, wow, there it is. This is what I've been doing. This is how I've been living for so long. And I finally spoke truth, right? I finally was like, I am not okay, actually, with what's happening. It feels disrespectful. I am affected by this. I'm not okay with what's going on. And, you know, I decided to remove myself from. From the situation. And, oh, my gosh, you know, that was such a profound moment. You know, when I say it was life changing, it's not hyperbolic. It was life changing. It changed the course. And it was this moment where it was like, okay, my hands are sweating for sure. My, you know, heart is beating out of my chest. This was a hard thing for me to do at that time because I, for decades, had been saying I was fine and unaffected for, you know, for so long. And to just speak that out as like, okay, I'm still here, you know, and, like, the consequence sucked, right, because the relationship ended. And, you know, that was obviously very hard. It wasn't necessarily this, like, yeah, I told him, and I'm so empowered. It was like, nah, I was crying on the bathroom floor for a couple months after. You know, it's like, it's not as. It's not always that. It's somebody. Pretty picture, right. I guess, is what I'm trying to get across. But it felt like a pivot. It felt like, I can do this, you know, and it was. Instead of staying on the familiar track, it was a totally unfamiliar space that I had moved into, but I lived it and I was okay and sure there was a consequence to it, and I had to grieve and I had to feel what I needed to feel. But I was like, this is a much better way of living and existing in the world. I know that there is a part of you right now that wants to say, I have never known that woman.

That is certainly not the woman that I. Yeah.

You do not have a problem telling me when you are affected and don't like something.

Well, I was gonna. My follow was gonna be, you know, how did that worthiness wound show up within the beginning of our relationship? Relationship?

Yeah, there was a. I think you remember this. There was a conflict that we were in and I have no idea what we're fighting about, but I remember my real strong need to be right and prove my point was coming out. I think you were just, yeah. Sitting or standing there and at one point you're like, okay, I get it, I get it, I get it. And I just kept going and I kept proving my point. You're like, I get it, I get it. You know, and this is early on in the relationship. We weren't engaged or married yet. And it really out of body for me, right? It was almost like I could. I pulled out from my physical being and I was like, stop talking, stop talking. You know, where you're just like, oh, I feel that shame coming in and this is unbecoming and you should probably stop talking now. And I couldn't stop, right. And from being really honest. I think there was probably a part that was like, if I keep doing this, there's a probability that you're not going to want to be with me because this is. Is obviously not behavior that is, you know, it didn't feel attractive to me. Right. But I couldn't stop. And I imagine that people listening, maybe you're not a point prover, but there might be something else that you identify with that you're like, yeah, I can't stop. This thing that I know is destructive, right? That I know that I don't want to do, that I know hurts the people I love, that I know creates a wedge, that creates disconnection, et cetera. And when I started to explore like, okay, well, what does my point prover part serve, right? Like, instead of just bashing it and being like, yo, you gotta go, you know, it's like it was more of an inquiry, right, about what it served, what it was protecting me from. And what I. Where I was able to draw from was that being right was quite literally safety for me growing up. When you grow up in a family system where there's a lot of manipulation, gaslighting, psychological game playing, you know, for me as a kid, right, I saw the impact that that had on my mom. And it was quite literally crazy making. And that did not feel safe for me. And I became a little human who got really good at tracking information and details and, you know, I. I followed things closely, right, Because I wanted to make sure that I would not be taken advantage of or manipulated. And so it was so connected and tied to. Yeah. Being right and being able to prove that I am right is my way of creating safety for myself. Right. And when I realized that, it's like, okay, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And now there's a need to shift into the mature adult self. Right. Which requires healing, which requires some processing to actually get to this place. Because we can sit here and I can say, I know, okay, Connor's a great partner and he is not manipulative, and I am safe with him. But there's more to it, right? Because it's not that all of a sudden I'm just gonna drop that point, prove apart and need to. It required me to heal the original pain around what I had seen growing up.

Yeah. I was going to say it. I think it also. One of the things that we talked about after that, and I mean, a few times after that, because, you know, I think there was a couple instances where the pendulum had swung where you were kind of seeing like, can I be unruly and still be loved? You know, can I. You know, because as you. As you described as a. As a girl, like, it wasn't okay for you to speak out or go against the grain. You know, there was such a harsh punishment, right. It's like, oh, if you don't act the way I want you to act, then I won't give you love. I won't talk to you. And I think I remember in one of our conversations where, you know, I was like, it's all good. Like, you can be angry. I can take that. And it's. It's totally fine. And you. I think that shift, like a couple of those really shifted things.

Yeah, there was. There was testing, right. And I think it definitely. It wasn't conscious testing.

Right.

But I think to. To your point right now, right, there was this part that's like, can I be.

Yeah. Like, dysregulated and still loved, you know, can I be difficult and be chosen? And there was something, again, that's not a test that we want to keep up, right? Because eventually that's going to, you know, cause a rupture. But I think there was something of, like, oh, interesting, right? Like, I want to know that I don't have to just be this, like, well adjusted, cool girl Persona, totally fine all the time, like, well behaved, yada, yada, yada, in order to get the things that I craved for and wanted.

Yes.

What's so funny about that?

I'm just. I'm just chuckling about. So my nickname for Vienna sometimes is My wild ass woman. And I think probably your previous partner's got a different version. But I think I've got the sort of. I'm going to test. I'm going to test you, especially in the beginning of our relationship where I was like, I'm going to test you to see how you'll handle this. And I don't think it was conscious. I think it was just a byproduct of like, oh, I love you, I feel safe with you. I want a relationship with you. And I think it's so funny because it's almost like the relationships that we want the most and the love that feels the most safe is almost always the time where these wounds that you're talking about come up the strongest, you know, and they rear their head whether it's worthiness or trust or whatever it is. Would you agree with that? Like, do you think that that's where they start to showcase themselves?

Yeah, because I think it's in the dynamics where there's opportunity for, you know, connection, closeness, love, intimacy. Right. Like, that's where we are testing the narrative, you know, like, to decide whether or not you're worthy with a stranger, you know, like, has less right. It's like the charge there is less right. And so. Correct. The closer we are with people and, you know, the capacity for where that relationship might go. Yeah. It tends to match irresolution with irresolution.

So let's. I want to talk about one thing and then I want to get into the rest of the wounds and if there's anything else you want to talk about the worthiness, we can. But you ended up doing. You ended up putting together like a survey essentially or a poll that talked about these wounds. And is there like, are there some that are. Can you talk about that? Are there some that are more common than others? Because I think when we hear these wounds, my sort of like data mind immediately goes to, well, A, which one am I? And B, is there one that's, you know, are there some that are more common than others?

Yeah, so it was a quiz and it's still available, so we can put it in the show notes. What's your origin wound? And a series of questions that will identify your primary origin wound. So number of folks who have been able to get advanced copies of the book are like, is it possible you have all five?

Right.

So, yes. And, you know, I probably identify most with worthiness and safety, so, you know, you're gonna get feedback on the primary one. But yeah, the results were pretty astonishing. Because, well, let me take that back, because it actually isn't that surprising. When I was writing the book, I even say it in the worthiness chapter. I'm like. And I'm pretty sure that every single one of us rubs up against a worthiness wound at some point in our lives. Am I good enough? Am I deserving? Am I worthy? Right. And so, yes, the results really showed that worthiness indeed was the number one origin wound for, gosh, probably 70 plus percent of people.

Yeah. So we. There's. And how many people roughly went through it?

Oh, probably now 25,000.

Wow.

So most people will have a primary and then a secondary.

Yeah. I mean, listen, I don't know that I necessarily love that language in terms of how, you know, the five love languages. Does it? Right. But it's like, you know, we. We have wounds. Right. And I don't know that we necessarily have to worry so much about. You'll know.

Right.

It's like when you start reading this book, you'll see which ones resonate for you and which ones don't. And so I don't. The idea of like ranking our wounds feels a little odd to me. So I. So I prefer to just which one's number one, which one's number one. And. And so again, right. With worthiness. And unsurprisingly, I think the majority of us do struggle with this from time to time.

All right, so we've talked about the worthiness wound. We've talked about family systems. I feel like we've laid the groundwork to dive into some of these. So where would you like to begin? Prioritization, Belonging. I feel like belonging is a pretty natural one. Prioritization is pretty. I mean, that's a personal one for me, but wherever you want to start.

Yeah. Well, the next one in the book is the belonging wound. So this will be. If you grew up in a family system where you felt like you didn't fit in, you were an outsider, you were othered in some way. Oftentimes the black sheep of the family will have a belonging wound. And it's common for families to, you know, maybe you've hurt, maybe your family said something like, this is how we behave. Right. This is what we do in this family. Right. This is what we think. Right. And there's such an emphasis on the group. And that group just agrees on everything. And if you don't adapt to that, then you're on the outside. And so a lot of times, again, that emphasis on how you present to the world what you believe what you think, how you ought to look. Those are the types of things that might be emphasized in that family system. And so when you're a kiddo, you've probably heard Dr. Gabor Mate talk about how when attachment is threatened, children will always trade authenticity, right? And so we know that attachment and authenticity are our two lifelines, right? Wanting to be ourselves, right? And, and just having permission to be ourselves while also having our attachment figures and kind of safety in the world. And so, yeah, when attachment is threatened, right? Be like us or else, right? Think like us or else, fit into.

The family, Operate like we're operating, Follow all the rules. Follow the rules.

Otherwise you're, you're out, right? And when you're tiny, right, you adapt. When you're tiny, you adapt, right? And maybe a little bit later on, like, you know why we see some teenagers go towards a path of rebellion, for example, right? It's like that is, you know, a path of opposition to that, right? It's like, well, screw you. Yeah. Then I am going to be on the outside and I'm going to believe differently than what you believe or what you're trying to control me to do, right? But, but the first stop with tiny humans, right, Is always a path of adaptation, right? Because we want so badly to be a part of something and the alternative is way too scary for us as kiddos. The prioritization wound, you know, and you said this one obviously is I guess, near to your tender wound spots. A child who doesn't feel like they are important and that might look like a parent who is a workaholic or maybe there's addiction in the household, maybe there's a mental health challenge that take up, takes up the space, right? Or a sibling that has an illness, right? And so it can be this like extra kind of entity almost that becomes the priority in the family. Sometimes it's parents conflict, right? Like they're constantly in conflict and that's the priority and the child is lost in that. Or after a divorce maybe mom starts dating regularly and all she can talk about are the dates and she loses focus of, you know, centering a child. But, and this is a pretty important, probably important for me to put this in here is like not all wounds come from these negligent, abusive, you know, mal intended places. I talk about a client in the book, in the prioritization chapter, Andre, who had a single mom working multiple jobs. She worked double shifts every day except for Sunday. They would go to church together and have brunch together afterwards. And that was the Time that they got to spend before she went to her. Her shift. And he, you know, he loved his mom. He had such respect and admiration for her, and so he really could rationalize that her working double shifts was her way of prioritizing him. Right. Like that was her way of loving him and doing everything that she could to set him up. Well, but at the end of the day, it didn't change that Andre still wanted more time with his mom. At the end of the day, you didn't change that. He wanted to be prioritized by time spent with her. And I think that's an important example, because a lot of times, like I said before, right, the idea of they did the best that they could with what they had can be valid, can be true. Right. And that doesn't mean that pain is erased. You know, it's like the whole point of this is to honor the experience. Right. Even when they did the best that they could, or even when there's a circumstance that's just out of somebody's control, you know, like a parent who dies prematurely, you know, and it's like, ah, shoot, right here are these heartbreaking moments that can still leave someone with a wound, even though that person wasn't trying to hurt or harm you.

Yeah. Prioritization seems like one of those where an individual just feels like there's. There's like a loneliness, you know, where it's like, oh. Because I've worked with a number of people where, you know, maybe their parents were just working constantly to make sure that everybody could survive. Right. And it's not really like a fault or a blame. It's just like they weren't really around. And so I think those. Those individuals just get so used to being on their own that connecting with other people or feeling prioritized becomes foreign.

What resonates for you with the prioritization wound?

I mean, just not. Not being. Not having my interests, not having my goals being prioritized. I mean, even, like, we were talking about this the other day about with our son and, you know, being able to support him through education and, you know, teach him things and help him with his homework and stuff like that. And, yeah, for the most part, that just didn't happen growing up. And then I think that, you know, the big one was, like, wanting my dad to prioritize, being at my sporting events when I was playing hockey and stuff like that. And just, I mean, for the most part, because he had his own family, he was just never there.

Yeah. I think part of what you're describing is that lost child piece. Right. And obviously you've talked about this before on the show, so it's not foreign to your listeners, but I think when there's an ending of a relationship, right, for your. For your parents, it was a divorce. And then, you know, I think you were alluding to it earlier where they kind of recreated a very similar family system. Both got remarried, both had a daughter, then had a son, think had a dog in there somewhere too. Right. And so these kind of mirrored family systems. And then there was you. Right. Kind of lost between these two pictures that were put together. Right. And, you know, I think, like you said the loneliness before, right? And the. And the lostness of, like, why am I not prioritized now? Just because you guys have your own families.

Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because I think, like, when I initially went through the five wounds in your book, it made more sense for, like, the belonging wound. But then when I actually went through it, I was like, oh, no, it's actually, it's not that I didn't feel like I didn't belong because I felt connected to. To my siblings and. And I knew that consciously. I knew that I belonged in those systems, but it was actually that I just wasn't prioritized. And so that was the interesting part that really helped me understand, I think, in. In a lot of ways, the work that I've done in the past, you know, and. Yeah, I mean, there's. There's just. There's been a lot of opportunities, I think, for my family, specifically my parents, to prioritize me where it just hasn't happened. I mean, and you've experienced it too. I mean, when you and I first started dating, right? It's like the first time that you met one of my sets of parents, and we spent four or five days with them, and they just didn't even ask you a question? Like, they didn't ask about your business, they didn't ask about your family, they didn't ask about your past. They just literally didn't even talk to you. And it was such an interesting thing where I was like, yeah, they just. You're just not a priority. Right. And you were like, what the hell is this? Like, what is going on? I'm like, yeah, welcome to my life life. Like, that's. That's it.

Well, and it's interesting when you have experiences like that because it. I think I really could connect to what it must have been like for you. And, you know, obviously it didn't penetrate me in the same way that it would a child kind of growing up around that. Right, but it's, yeah, it's, it's interesting when you see, you know, the family system still playing it out in certain ways. Right. There's many ways obviously that an origin wound can come about. These are just some of the ways that are fairly common. So then the next one is the trust wound and trust the tricky, tricky one, right? Because once broken, right. So, so, so, so hard to pull those pieces back together. Right. So what's a trust origin wound? When there's a betrayal, when there's deceit, when there's lies. The obvious ones that thing probably come to mind are infidelity and affairs. We have parents who maybe gamble away an education fund or they take out credit cards and their, you know, two year old's name. And you know, there's really significant. I'm like, wait, what.

Happened?

People take out credit cards in their two year old's name.

You're like, well, code's turning two.

Yeah, I was like, code's turning two in a month now get them a cc.

But then there's the more subtle ones, right? Where it's like a family secret that might be held from you and, or information that you feel like you should have known about and it would have changed the trajectory of your life. Or, you know, like it feels like information. Like, wait, how did you guys decide not to tell me that? Right. And then maybe even more subtle, right. Is a parent who says, makes promises that they don't follow through on. Right? And so it's anything that ruptures the trust, right? Through betrayal, deceit and lies. It's the first story in the book besides my own. I share a client who in the book goes by Natasha and she's trying to decide whether or not she should move forward in the relationship with her partner Clyde. They're about to get engaged. She knows this and she's coming in and she's like, I don't know what to do. I just feel like the other shoe is going to drop. And you know, kind of like what we were talking about earlier when I started asking, well, has the shoe, the other shoe dropped in past relationships and your family? She's like, why? No, my family's great. Like, why do you, why do you go there? Why do you need to go there? Everything was fine there, right? Okay, great. Let's keep our eyes moving forward then and try to decide whether or not you're gonna say or leave. And later down the road in our sessions, you know, there's an opening. And she shares with me that when she was a teenager, she was using her father's computer. His email was open. And she stumbles upon an email between her father and a woman who's not her mother. And he walks in on her and he tells her, like, please do not tell your mother or sister. I promise I'll end it. And she.

He was having an affair with that woman.

He's having an affair with that woman. Yes, Right. That, like in the email, was expressing how much they loved each other and how much they enjoyed the weekends together and, you know, all that. And this shattered Natasha's image of him. Right. Her father was someone who was always home for dinner, always with the family, like, seemingly loved everyone, you know, was just presented very differently than what this next image created for her. And that all got shattered. But she had. She absorbed this secret, and so she went on pretending like nothing had happened. Right? She had to. Right. And when I say had to, obviously there was a choice there, but there was this pressure for her to absorb this, and she did. And it wasn't until decades later in our therapy, where she shared it for the first time, that those words came out of her mouth to someone was to me. And she realized that her father and this affair was the origin story of the other shoe dropping. And she had gone through life and relationships either sabotaging or prematurely ending a relationship, even though no one had given her any reason to doubt or suspect or, you know, anything like that. Right. She was like, clyde's an amazing man. Here are all the qualities about him. I don't know why, but I just have this feeling, and I think it's why these are such important examples. Because if we are just sitting there in therapy, actually just trying to decide whether Natasha ought to stay in this relationship or not, without this information, really hard to find a path forward. You'll choose one or the other. Fine, Right. But like the irresolution, right. What she needed to do was go back into that origin pain and witness it, Right. To really connect to that teenager who came across something that she couldn't talk about to anyone, that she had to absorb for so long that she had to keep a secret. Not only was there the betrayal, you know, of her father's infidelity, but then she was also carrying around the betrayal of never telling her mother, you know, not cling her in. There were so many layers to it, right? And so there needed to be a resolution around that in order for her to actually have agency in her own Life and make a choice to stay with Clyde. Right. And so, you know, it's like, those are the types of things that we see, right? When we don't look back, when we're like, nah, that doesn't. That stuff from back then doesn't affect me. It's like, nah, there. It's finding sneaky ways to rule your life. Okay. And then the last one is safety. And when we are talking about the absence of safety, we are often talking about the presence of abuse. This is a really tender chapter. And. Right. We can't skip over that conversation. And so when I think about what is a safety origin wound, I think that it is when you felt like your overall well being was not cared for, considered protected, honored and respected. And so oftentimes there is emotional, physical, sexual, psychological abuse. There's negligence, there's recklessness, and there's just an absence of, yeah, proper care, concern, honor, respect, and safety.

Yeah. It's interesting how safety can show up. I remember working with somebody who. I kind of alluded to it before, where his parents, you know, they were immigrants and they just had to work relentlessly, but he was left alone. He was an only child and he was left alone, I think, starting at like 8 or 9. And so he'd have to walk home from school at 8 or 9. And he ended up starting getting bullied. And there was this lack of safety that started to emerge in his household. And, you know, he just felt like he couldn't even tell them to just kind of hold down the fort. And so I think there's so many different versions of how that that safety wound can manifest. You know, not just sort of like in the unit itself, but even an example like that that's there's a sort of byproduct that's happening at school.

One of the stories I share in the book in the safety chapter is a client of mine who's presenting with frustration, confusion around why he is overspending. He has a great job, he does make a lot of money, but he talks about how he just spends every last dollar and he doesn't know why. And it's like, people think he's wealthy, but he's like, I have no wealth. Right. I just. I just dry it all up. And remember at one point in the session, I was like, you know what. What's presenting feels like recklessness, right. Here's this man who's not actually being careful with himself, who recognizes that he's overspending and really not taking precautions for himself. And so when I started to ask about, what's your relationship with recklessness?

Is there an origin story around that? He shared with me that when he was a young boy, whenever his dad would be driving with the him by himself, his dad would speed to really scary numbers, right? Like, might go like 80, 90 in a 35. And he would cry and scream and tell his dad, please slow down, like, express how scared he was. Felt like his dad was so reckless with him. His dad, he didn't understand, like, why are you trying? You could kill us. Right? His dad was always angry with the mom and there was just stun whenever he was with his son. He would just take it out here and kind of got a thrill out of it. And, you know, obviously nothing bad ever did wind up happening. But it left him with the safety. Safety wound, right? Like, how can you do this to me? Right? How can you not care about my life, Your life, but my life. Right. And there was such a connection of how his spending was an extension of that recklessness from decades before and until we could actually tend again to that pain from so long ago. Right. Like, that was what was keeping him from making the change that he again, he knew he wanted to make. He didn't want to be living this way. He wanted to have savings. He wanted to make sure that he was set up for his future.

Right.

But this was, you know, there was this kind of repetition of the recklessness in a way that he hadn't thought about before.

I was gonna say, should we analyze my driving my motorcycle on the highway at 320km an hour.

At the age of 20 with a full spike mohawk on my helmet of like 2 inch metal spikes on my Mohawk on my helmet.

Ridiculous. We'll leave that alone.

Yeah. Okay. We won't go there.

Okay, so what do we do? Because I can hear that question naturally brewing and emerging right now. You've laid out like, okay, here's going into the family system. I'm bought in. Like, I understand how it's showing up in my life. I can identify with, you know, a couple of the wounds and maybe even connect to like a story in my life where there's those parts that sort of like the origin of where that wound maybe even came from, or if it feels analogous. I mean, that might be where we need to start. But where, where do we begin in this process?

Yeah. So the first part is naming and identifying the wound, right? Or the wounds you resonate with. Don't skip over the chapters. Even if you don't think that one wound is going to resonate with you. Because even if it isn't one that you carry, maybe your partner does, maybe your best friend does, maybe a sibling does. Right. Maybe your adult child does. Right. It's like, there's so much value in seeing other people's stories in this as well. So don't. Don't think that you have the. You might. Like you were saying, Connor, where you're like, I think it's a belonging wound. And then you read the prioritization chapter, you're like, nope. You know, like, this is.

And it's kind of like the five love languages. Right. It's just like you might have, like, two very specific love languages, but your partner has two very different ones. And you have to know those ones. Right. You have to learn them because. And because for most of us. Well, can I ask you a question before we get into, like, what do we do?

Yeah.

Do people attract other people predominantly with opposing wounding or with similar wounding? Or is like. Or is that sort of a crapshoot?

I would say it's probably a bit more of a crapshoot.

Okay.

I don't think that there's. I don't know that there's anything where I'm like, oh, yeah, those trust wounds really attract those belonging wounds, or, you know, something like that. But what I would say is that we will partner with people who are going to rub up against the wound or wounds that we have.

Yeah. Because, I mean, the reason why I asked it is that the relationships where I'm working, like where I've worked with couples or where we were. We've worked with couples, where I'm like, oh, yeah, this couple really has a chance. It can really make it. It's almost always because they have some wounding that's almost like complementary. It's rubbing up against one another for sure and igniting each other's pain.

Yeah.

But it's almost like the healing of the one person not requires the person to heal as well, but could call them into healing as well.

Right. I'm gonna think about that question more, though, because I think it's a very interesting inquiry. Right. Of like. Yeah. Is there actually something that stands out? Because as you asked that, I'm like, hmm, interesting. Right. So someone with a safety wound, for example, oftentimes. And this is not always the case. Right. But a lot of times people with a safety wound might go to a place where they put walls up around them as a form of protection. Right. Other times, people with a safety wound will drop the walls and try to get as close to people as quickly as possible so that they kind of manufacture safety, but it's still an illusion for them. But, for example, if you did, if you do put walls up, right, where it's like, okay, this is the only way for me to feel safe and secure in the world. This is how I get protected, then you could understand how someone with a prioritization wound, right, might have that rubbed up against. Right. You are so protected that you can never really connect deeply with me. Right. You're not, you're not able to prioritize what it is that I'm craving or wanting or needing out of this relationship. So, you know, I think that you could see how some of them will dance together, but I, I don't know that I would put them in boxes because I think I could probably make a case for every single one of them fair if I tried hard enough. But what I will say and what I will repeat is that we will, once we get past, once we've chosen each other, right, we're not coming into that relationship with wildly different levels of your resolution. You know, when you hear some people who are like the up one in the relationship, right, like, oh, yeah, they've got quite a story compared to mine. Like, yeah, that might be true, that there's more context to the story, but there is not dissimilar amounts of irresolution. Does that make sense?

Yeah, like the, the amount of sort of like psychological stuff that's unresolved within that person or within their past or within their inner world is. Is relative often to the other person.

Exactly. Okay, so in the book, I have an origin healing practice. And you know, out of the gates. Let me say, obviously this isn't like a 1, 2, 3, 4, and then you're done and your wounds are to disappear.

Let's give them one to three. And then they have to buy the book in order to get the final step. You know. That's good.

I like that. That's great. Okay, so the first step is obviously we have to acknowledge, name, identify the wounds. I said that before. The second part is witnessing. Right. And I'm a big believer that we. There needs to be a witness, right?

First, like an external witness, a third party witness.

It could be you with you. And I think because, you know, relationships are what contribute or create wounds, then we need relationships to participate in the healing of wounds. Right? And so, yes, I think first stop is self with self, right? To actually just acknowledge and witness the self. Because so often we just brush past it. Or we say, I'm not going to go there, or I'm not even going to acknowledge that it happened or, you know, spend time with it. And so to witness it is important. What I do want to say is that the person who contributed to the wound in the first place does not need to participate in the witnessing or the healing of the wound. Thank you, goodness. Right. Because if that was the only way, quote, unquote, out, we'd probably all be.

Yeah, a lot of us would be screwed.

Yeah. Right. And so I think it's very important is, like, whether, you know, again, if somebody is deceased, or we also have so many folks who have, you know, if it's a parent relationship that we're talking about, parents who are defensive or respond with an explanation or, you know, deflect away from it or make it about them.

And.

And, you know, we know that loop so well. And so it's very important to know that sometimes when we keep going after that person, to be the one to acknowledge us. Like, that's where the suffering continues. Right. And that there is this line where hope is a beautiful thing for us, but then there's a line where hope becomes the place where the suffering is prolonged. Right. And so to be your own witness and to have a loving partner, a therapist, a dear friend, you know, somebody else who can hold that space with you, you obviously get way more into it in the book. The third part is grieving. I always say, when in doubt, grieve more. When stuck, grieve more. Like, grief it out, grieve it out. And this one's confronting. Right. Like, I think in our society, we reserve grief for when somebody dies. We don't really think about grief as something that we move through, that we come into contact with, maybe not daily, but, you know, it's like we rub up against grief quite a bit and we have to learn how to utilize grief in a way that moves us through something. Right. And then the last part. Should I give away the last part?

I think you probably showed up.

I'm just kidding. I'm not going to leave behind. The last part is the pivot. And this is, you know, towards the end, I talk about where. I think many of us are really familiar with that quote that's attributed to Viktor Frankl about between stimulus and response, there is a pause, Right. That pause is the. It was really our gateway to freedom. And when we do origin healing work, what we're doing is we're widening that. That pause. Right. We're able to. Oh, boy. This reactivity that I'm feeling is where I'm stuck. This activation in my body, like, there's something familiar here. What do I know about this? Right? And so it's not just, ooh, this thing, Right, Right in the here and now. We start to recognize that it's all the things that are familiar to this moment in the here and now that are showing up. And so when we spend time witnessing grieving, what happens is that gap starts to widen, that pause gets a little bit longer. And when that pause is a little bit longer, there's more opportunity for us to step into agency, accountability, consciousness, awareness, right? Where we're able to say, okay, what am I going to do here? And one of my favorite questions is, is what I'm about to say or do going to lead me to suffering or to peace? But there's a caveat because sometimes peace is. There's a short term and a long term part, right? The short term might be like, yep, if I do the same old thing that I do, I don't have to hear this person anymore. So the caveat is that is it about to lead me to suffering or peace within the context of what my healing, my expansion goals are? And that's where there's some agency. And I, you know, I probably won't get too much into this with how much time we have left. But in the third part of the book, I really dive into how unresolved wounds get played out in the breakdown of conflict and the breakdown of communication in the ways in which we either have weak porous boundaries or the walls are all the way up. And I think it's in those moments where we can see, oh, if I'm being passive aggressive in my communication or if I'm giving you the silent treatment, or if my wall is all the way to the top in this relationship, like, what is happening here as a result of these wounds. And okay, in that pause, I have a moment where I can replace what I used to do as a form of self protection with something that is still self protected, but it's the update. And also relationally protective.

By caring for the relationship based on the decision that I'm making, romantic, friendship, whatever, right? Colleagues, whatever type of relationship we might be talking about. But I think a lot of times when our wounds are in the driver's seat, we're having to be very self protective. And when our healing is in the driver's seat, we can be self and relationally protective.

Yeah, I love that. I love that distinction. I think the, I mean, the Stuff you lay out in the book are straightforward. And I mean, Da Vinci said that the ultimate form of sophistication, simplicity is the ultimate form of sophistication. And I think as I've gone through this and heard you talk about it more and more, that's what really stands out to me, is that I think that there's a lot of therapeutic modalities and healing work out there. And it can get complex. You know, it can really get, like, complex or vague or I'm not really too sure, like, what to do. And I think that you've made something that you've taken a complex topic and made it straightforward enough in a way where people can really implement this and see change. And, you know, I love that grieving is a part of the process because I think it's the thing that many, many of us are afraid of. You know, I think that there's. Our culture is very grief phobic. I mean, I work predominantly with men, and so a lot of guys are like, you know, like, if I go in there, like, I'm going to have, like, I don't want to wallow in it. Right. I don't want to stay in it. It's like, well, you won't even get in the pool, bro. Like, he.

Well, but also, while grieving is not wallowing.

Right.

It's very intentional and directional.

Yeah, right. Yeah. And I think, you know, the group work also, I mean, we've led group work together. I've done a ton. I think that having our grief witnessed sometimes, like, we've shared in our own individual stories, where the lack of prioritization that I experienced as a child, to have that witnessed by you and understood by you, has been really healing, and I think vice versa, where, you know, for me to get to see and hear what it's been like for you to not have felt safe or not have felt worthy, I think that's been really healing for you. And so I think that this framework is so powerful, especially within relationship, you know, especially within couples. Because I think what couples really bump up against is that their past pain gets. Just gets in the way of the present moment intimacy that they're wanting to create. So is there anything about the last part of the book? I know we. We're not going to dive deep into it, but anything else that you want to share on that or anything that we didn't touch on?

No, I mean, that last section. Well, it's not the last section, but the third section. Right. Is one of my favorite parts of the book because it really gets into the complexity of and the nuances of relationships. Right. I think what's so important to me is to not pretend like, here's how you have a great relationship. You know, it's like, now, people and relationship systems, they're just much more complicated than that. You really can't just follow a few steps and call it a day. We have rich stories, every single one of us, and we have to figure out how to tend to the complexity and the richness of those stories. And I think that this book does a really beautiful job demonstrating that. And so I'm excited for people to read it. I think maybe one question that I would leave the listener with that was one of the most important questions the therapist ever asked me was, what did you want most as a child? And not get? And that question might feel like an oof question, you know, or it's like, oh, okay.

But it will point you. It will direct you towards something, right? If you can allow yourself to answer that question, what did I want? What I need? What did I desire most as a child? And not get. So I can't believe my book is going to be. I guess it's already out in the world now, and it's out now.

People can go order it, and they should order it. And I mean, I. I think I've talked it up. People are probably tired of hearing me talk it up.

You're my partner. You get to talk it up and celebrate it.

But I think, you know, you are one of the, if not the most incredible facilitators and practitioners that I know when it comes to people's inner world, when it comes to helping people make sense of themselves and why they're doing things, and really helping people understand how to get the type and quality of relationship that they want, which is hard. Like, relationships. You know, I think, if anything, the modern times that we're living in is actually just showing us social media, the Internet, you know, the digital age has actually showed us how challenging relationships really are. It's amplified that truth within our culture. And so I think we actually need more resources. And I think yours is going to be one of those, like, seminal resources a decade from now that people are still referring to when they're like, yep, the origins of you. Here's. Here's my origins, you know, here's my origin story, here's the blueprint, and here's the wounds, and here's what I worked through, and here's what I healed. And so, yes, thank you for writing.

This thank you for telling me to Two years ago.

Final question. How does it feel to have it out in the world to have people. Because you started to get people sending you photos of them holding the books. You know, you just went and signed a bunch of books. How does that feel to, like, see it out in the world? I know it's just the very, very, very beginning, but how does it feel?

Yeah, it's amazing. You know, I think there's. The writing process is such an interesting one. And I think where I started was like, how do I write this book so that everybody, you know, loves it? You know, insert worthiness wound here. And yeah, I think where I've ended with this is that I love my book and I am proud of this book. And I know that this book is a phenomenal book. And I think existing in that is just such relief and freedom, right? Because I'm sure maybe somebody doesn't love my book as much as I love my book, whatever it is. But I think there's such a. There's such a freedom and peace to existing with such a level of confidence about what I did with this. And now it's no longer mine, you know, it's like now it becomes everyone else's. It becomes how they receive it and interpret it and what happens within them when they read it. And that's the part that's so exciting for me. It's like my job here is done besides having to do more interviews and all of that. But my job with the book, right, is like. Like it's. It's done, right. There's a completion to it, and now it's up to everybody else to read this or listen to it. And I can't wait to hear what people think of it. So, yeah, it's. It's really cool and it's a bit surreal. I don't know that I ever thought that I would write a book. You know, it's like, now I know this is going to air after Monday morning.

You may be ready around the same time.

Okay, well, then I won't say that then.

No, say it. Say it.

Oh, okay. Well, yeah, it's kind of surreal that I was on gma, Good Morning America, that my book was on a jumbotron in Times Square. It's like floating out there. Yeah, it's. You know, those things. You're just like, wait, what? Yeah, okay. I was that little girl who was going through all this stuff at one point, you know, and perched atop the stairs listening to her parents fight. And here I am talking about this work. And there's a jumbotron with my book on it, you know, so, yeah, I'm taking it in. I'm riding the high. I'm thrilled. And, yeah, can't wait for people to do this healing work.

Well, folks, go grab a copy. Links in the show notes. Where would you like them to grab a copy?

Yeah, I mean, listen, it's anywhere that books are sold. So whatever place you like to buy from, you know, that's. That's up to you. But you can. You can get these at the big ones and the small ones. And so wherever you feel most aligned, supporting. That's great.

The indie stores, the Amazons, the Barnes and Nobles. Go, go find a copy, Enjoy the book, and we'll have all the links for you.

Leave a review.

Leave a review. Definitely helps. Goes a long way.

Yeah.

As they know if they've listened to my show endlessly talking about my book.

Should we drop what's happening in June?

We can, we can, but people won't have anywhere to go. But we can tell. We can just give them the insight into what we're doing. They just will have to wait patiently.

You'll have to mark it on your calendar.

Yes. So June 3rd and 4th, Vienna and I are going to be doing a live and online event simultaneously. So you can partake either in person. We'll have very limited room for couples, and it'll be 40 couples in person in New York, June 3rd and 4th, and then virtually digitally from everywhere. Wherever you are, you can attend. So that is going to be.

So save the date.

Save the date.

We're going to get into the good stuff.

It's the first time that we've taught. Oh, boy.

In a long time.

In a long time. We've done a couple years. We've done some stuff.

September 2020, pretty quietly behind the scenes. Yeah.

Before Code was born.

Yeah. Okay. Can't wait to work with you again.

Boom. Boom. That's a great way to end it. Thank you, team, for joining us. As always, thank you for tuning in. This is definitely a podcast that you want to share with somebody in your life, Maybe a friend, maybe a family member. Maybe this is the podcast that you want to share with your partner and maybe listen to with them or your family. Or your family. It was interesting. I had one of the guys in the alliance send the book. Send my book, Men's work to his dad to go through together. And that was. I was just blown away by that. But thank you so much, Dean, for joining us. Thank you for tuning in as always. This is Connor Beaton signing off and we will see you next week.

It.