Vienna Pharaon - Two Books & A Baby: Surviving Hard Times In Your Relationship

Foreign.

Hi, husband.

How are you doing, wife?

Doing great. That's how we always start our podcasts.

Hello, wife.

Hello, wife. If you go back, I think you always start off.

I think that's how we do it, don't we? Yeah. Are we just in. Maybe we don't even need to like, check this anymore.

Check the mic.

Check. Check the mic.

We're good.

Okay. All right, so here we go. Here we go. It's been a while since I had you back on the show, and I feel like these little sessions, they end up turning into. I mean, we get a lot of feedback from them actually.

Do we.

A lot of people reach out and talk about how helpful us just talking about our marriage, our relationship, and sort of like recapping what's been going on in our lives, talking about how we have handled certain challenges or conflicts or problems that we've been dealing with. And we've been, we've been in it the last little while. Like, I, I've had this idea of calling this episode, which maybe ends up turning into like a couple episodes, two books, a baby and in a house. Because I. Cause I, I was explaining this to my men's group the other day was like, we did one of the craziest things that we could possibly do, which is you got pregnant. We decided to buy, build our first home. You had a baby. And then I signed a book deal, and then you signed a book deal, and then we both wrote books while raising a newborn.

We also lost our dog.

We also lost our Beautiful dog, Bronx, aka Golden Donkey. Beeman, aka Beeman, aka BronxVarren. He was, he was a golden retriever of many names. Buddha, the Buddha, the Golden Buddha, Donkey.

Yeah.

So. So we had a lot of life happen and we had a lot of, would you say, stress and challenges happen.

I sure would.

Uh huh.

Yeah.

What? Well, let's just start with probably the most obvious question, which is how was becoming a mother? Which I'm sure is no small question, but what was that like?

Being a mom is.

It's all the things, you know, it's. It's everything that everybody kind of tells you, you know, where you're like, it's the hardest, it's the hardest, and it's the most beautiful. I found that to be true. Right. It's. There's so many teachings, so many lessons, so many things that it confronts, so many things that it tests and simultaneously it gives you. Gives me the pleasure and joy and laughter and connection and playfulness and presence and, you know, so it's. Yeah. I, I, I really love it.

I think it's been cool to watch you become a mom and like, see this part of you come online, you know, that, you know, I saw with Bronx and like the people that you care for and whatnot, but to like, see it come online in a very different way, in a much more like, robust way, you know, where you're dancing with code or playing with him or trying to teach him things and nurturing him. And just like the relationship that the two of you have is amazing. You know, I think whenever I see you interacting with him, maybe not whenever, not every single time, but often I find myself thinking, you know, reinforcing that I chose the right partner, you know, for a number of reasons, but largely because of how you treat our son, you know, and I love the way you love him. You know, like, I remember.

People are probably gonna get a kick out of this in the first. So we got one of those jolly jumpers for him. I don't remember who got it. Do you remember who got it for him anyway? Somebody.

Colin.

Yeah, my uncle Colin sent us this jolly jumper for code. Like the old school jolly jumper with like the metal poles and the chain that hangs down and like the little thing.

There is no old school. It like, you know what's so funny about the jolly jumper?

It's just the same thing for however.

Whoever made it is, has made so much money on this overpriced piece of whatever that just like, so good, good on you.

Jolly jumpers are just. Yeah. So anyways, I remember, I remember, you know, obviously the first few months were like baby bliss and whatnot. And your sleep just gets, it's like a whirlwind right, where you're not sleeping at all. But then he got this jolly jumper and you kept playing Fireball by Pitbull Fireball.

And you know, you're dancing and clapping and singing and, you know, holding in his hands and you know, I, I just remember looking back and, you know, there was a part of me that was like, clearly judging you sometimes.

But then there was another part of me that was just so glad that code that my son got this experience of a mom who is fun and engaging and like, wants to be playful with him and, and so it was cool to see that part of you come online and dance around and be silly and have fun with him and, you know, even though that's not something he'll ever remember, you know, he's not going to remember dancing with mom at 6 months old in his jolly jumper to Pitbull you know, to Fireball by Pitbull. Outside of outside. That's one of the videos that we took of it. But what would you say has been the greatest challenge of becoming a mom? And how would you say that the transition into motherhood has shifted you for the better?

Hmm. There have been many challenges, I'd say. I mean, I think one of. I was hoping to have a vaginal birth, which didn't happen, and I was not prepared for the intensity of. For me, what was a very hard C section recovery.

It didn't happen because Code was.

Well, code was transverse.

Yeah.

And so. And when my water broke, I. He was transverse when my water broke. And so, you know, that was. That was what it was. And so that C section recovery. Yeah, that surgery was really hard. I was not expecting the recovery to be as challenging as it was. So, you know, that. That part was. Was hard.

I was giggling before in case people heard, and you can't see me, but I was smiling because when. When Vienna's water broke, it was 4 o' clock in the morning, and she had just finished working. Her plan was to take, you know, 16 days off from work before code came. And I, you know, we had this big conversation a few times where I was like, I don't think that's enough time. And she was like, no, I think it's going to be okay. And so she finished work Friday night at 5:00pm, 6:00pm, 6pm and her. And at 4:00pm that morning. 4:00am Sorry. Getting all my times messed up. At 4:00am that morning, like 14 hours later, 12 hours later.

Let me. Let me just stop you here for a second. Let me just stop you here for a second because dear listener, Connor Beaton, the show host of the Man Talk show, is taking this opportunity to tell all of you that he told me so.

No, that's not where I was going. I mean, I did tell you, so.

I did say. I did say. I don't think that's gave you enough time. I did, but that's not the point of my story. The point of my story was actually to call myself out because I had, like, one of your classic quintessential dad moments where Vienna, at 4:00am she gets up, she's having some discomfort, and. And she's sitting in the bathroom and she's like, I think my water just broke. And my response as her husband, as this loving, you know, caring, enlightened man that has done all this work, is to say, are you sure you didn't just piss yourself?

That was my response. To. I think my water just broke. And she's like, I'm pretty sure that I didn't. Yeah. And I don't know.

Yeah, it was. It was pretty damn funny. Okay. So challenge. So the. The birthing process, the recovery of.

The recovery was very challenging. Yeah, I was really lucky. I think that. Yeah, you were a great support, honestly, not just saying that, you know, since we're.

It was. It was hard, though, because, like, those first six weeks, like, you couldn't move.

Yeah, it was very hard for me.

Every two hours at night, when he needed to feed and needed a diaper change, like, I was getting up, getting him doing all that, passing him to you, helping you move around.

Yeah, it was very hard for me to move around. You know, it was like I just had stomach surgery, basically. And. Yes. So that part was surprising to me. And it's very vulnerable. Right. It's like, you. There is a strength, and, you know, you're like, okay, I'm gonna.

I'm.

I'm going into this role, and I've. I've. I've got it. Then to be. You know, there were. There were major constraints, major physical constraints for me that prevented me from being the way that I wanted and was used to. And I think that that can be true again for, you know, any way in which you deliver. But again, for me, this surgery was particularly hard, but I did have incredible support. I enjoyed. I really enjoyed. I have enjoyed pretty much all of the moments, you know, even. Even when there have been hard things. I think my way of navigating things is that I recognize that there's an offering, and I don't look at the behavior as a problem. Right. I look at it as an arrow pointing back to either one of us or both of us.

Yeah. You know, I think that that's been really helpful for me. So when something is hard, I don't try to fix the hard thing. Right. I try to understand.

What it's revealing to me about myself or to you. About yourself or to us. About ourselves. For the most part.

Yeah. Caveat. For the most part. That's what the attempt.

But again. Right. Like, I really. I really feel like, you know, when you ask me what's been hard.

You know.

I'll back up and I will say a loss of freedom for me. You know, I had a moment when I finished. Well, I must have been. It was towards the end of completing the manuscript for my book.

I had felt like I had been in a bit of a hole, both as a new mom, as a writer. As someone who was completing this manuscript, and I remember feeling this, like, I need to get out. You know, like, just like, ugh. And I had a couple of weeks left in before my manuscript was due, and I really needed to be writing every day. I think I was running out of time, and I knew that I needed to be writing every day. But I had an opportunity to go into the city to go to a women's mastermind. And I remember, like, I decided to go, and it was a full day event. I was gonna lose an entire day of writing. But there was a part of me that was craving, you know, being connected to other people, feeling inspired by other women, like, mattering, you know, like, it was. It was a really interesting time for.

Me outside of the baby.

And, yeah, it was like, who am I? You know, And I think, yeah, it was just like, what I remember. Like, have people forgotten about me? You know, do I matter? You know, do I exist anywhere outside of this hole?

You know, outside of the whole of, like, motherhood and book writing.

Motherhood and book writing.

Because it was just all consuming.

It was everything. It was every hour, right? It was like, you know, waking up at that time. I will beat my own damn horn because I wrote a book with a newborn who did not sleep through the night one single night while I wrote this book. You know, it was hard. And I was doing that nighttime.

You were doing the nighttime.

I was really doing that. And so I think with the layers of all of that, there was this part of me that was like, I'm sort of making my fists, my hands into a fist. Even as I'm describing this, where it was like I needed to bust out of whatever this container was. You know, I was craving to do something interesting, to have an interesting conversation with another human being, to, like, be seen, you know, it was like, even just putting clothes on or doing my hair or putting makeup on or, like, you know, just having a moment of like, hi, I'm still here. I am an individual who is separate from this, too. And, you know, it had been a long time of, for me what, as I'm describing, felt like being in this hole. And so when you ask me what was hard, I think the compilation of, you know, no longer living in Manhattan, no longer, you know, being a part of a web, the New York City web of just seeing people, going to things, grabbing a coffee with someone, you know, that was. That got to be hard for me.

And, like, the loss of independence, in some ways of becoming a mom who all of a sudden, you know, you have a child needing your attention all the time, Right. Like every two hours, you know, he needs your attention. And well, you know, specifically I'm just talking about feeding her.

Feeding.

Right. But like, yes, constantly is like needing attention in a number of different ways. It's interesting because it's like two forms of creation, right? You have like the human creation, this biological creation that they're now having to take care of, that's an extension of us. And then on the other side, you have this artistic creation of the book. Right. So it's like that's a lot of output. You know, nurturing a child, nurturing the creation of a book. That's a lot of output.

And so, yeah, there wasn't a ton of probably nurturing the self.

Uh huh.

And I think that's where that part that I'm describing of the individual. Vienna. Yeah, right. Who was like, where do I fit in? You know, like, who am I?

Yeah. So I think here's something that maybe is. Is interesting to talk about. How do you feel like having a child has altered our dynamic? I know that's sort of like a big, broad question. There's many, many answers to that. But maybe secondly.

What worked well in supporting you? Because I think a lot of, you know, I hear a lot of the men listening to this who have been fathers or about to become fathers, and it's like, well, how do I support my partner through the transition into motherhood? And of course we have our own transition as men into becoming fathers. But I do think that there is something different in terms of, you know, we want to be able to support you. And so what, what maybe what did I do to help you in that transition? Was there things that you needed that I could have given you more of? Like, I think that those types of things are things that we as guys often think about is like. Cause it's such a different transition, right? Like we're not producing a child and then birthing the child. We're a part of the process externally. And then all of a sudden this baby's there and we can tell that you have a whole different set of like, challenges and experiences.

And I don't remember what your first question was.

Yeah, how did becoming a parent change our relationship? How did having a baby change our dynamic?

Well, I'll go the second one first. And she just went into that a bit more. You know, I think probably one of the most important things was your.

Connection to my inner world. Meaning it wasn't just about, what do you need me to do? Or details and logistics, which also is important and helpful. But I think that you were pretty attuned to the fact that I was probably having an internal. Internal emotional experience at most moments of every day. And I believe you were connected to that and curious about it and attuned to it and asking about it and.

Like, asking, what's it like to be a mom and how do you feel about it? Or, like, what do you mean by that?

I don't recall what you necessarily asked, but I think my takeaway of what it felt like was you were asking me how I was doing. You know, you were asking me how I was feeling. And not. It was more about what's going on inside of you. I know you're struggling with X. You know, again, for me specifically, my physical recovery was very hard. There was a lot of pain. My body, you know, my relationship with my body, you know, there were like, a lot of pieces that I think you knew that I was.

Emotional about, and you would ask me about those things often, probably every day. And that was very helpful. And, yeah, you were supportive of me so that I could be with code. I think you got very good at making avocado toasts.

Yeah, those were a staple in the first few months.

But, yeah, I mean, I think that the thing that was probably most meaningful and impactful for me was your genuine care and concern about my experience.

I mean, it was interesting because it was a huge transition for me, all of a sudden, having a son in my life. And I mean, honestly, the biggest challenge, which I'm sure is going to come up at some point, was how much I struggled with the lack of sleep over time. You know, I think the first few months I was okay because it. I was in go mode where I was really. It was like I was having to take care of you and him, you know, in the sense. In the sense of, you know, you're having to take care of him, but in the sense that I. Because you were physically limited, I was having to do so much of, like, it was like you were diapers.

You had to help me help take care of him. You know, it was like. Like when he would wake up in the middle of the night, you would go get him, I'd get him. Then you'd get change sitting up. I had to do it slowly because I couldn't move fast. And then. Then you'd place him in my arms, you know. So, yeah, you were. You were doing. You were doing a lot.

But I think, you know, I think we were a good unit in that in the first few months, you know, of really working as a team, and I think it was a little bit of survival mode, because it was unexpected, right, in terms of, like, how the C section. Yeah, the C section. And how the birth unfolded. And so I think there was a little bit of, like, you know, we had kind of prepared a little bit for that possibility, but certainly not to the degree that maybe was necessary in hindsight. And so I think there was a little bit of, like, okay, like, let's do, you know, for me, like, let's do whatever it takes in order to make sure that you're okay and he's okay. And thankfully, I had taken a couple months off to just be with you and him. And we had support, which was good. And that. That was super helpful. But, yeah, I mean, I think there was a part of me that knew that you were in a lot of pain. I could see that you were in a lot of pain physically, but I could also feel that you were in pain emotionally of. You know, I think I've known you. I know you a little bit now after six years of being together and a few years of marriage. And I think I could tell that, you know, you're the type of person that, like, sets your mind to something and you have a goal and you're ambitious and you're dedicated and driven. And so I knew how much you were wanting to have the vaginal birth and gearing towards that and doing everything in your power to make that happen. And on the other side of that not happening, I was very conscious of, like, oh, I don't know if I've ever seen you go through something and, like, you know, like, you usually crush everything that you set your mind to. You know, it's like with work, with business, with clients, like, athletic goals and stuff like that, but this one was just out of your hands in some ways. And so I think I could tell that it had taken a very real emotional toll in the sense of not that didn't go the way that I wanted, but, I don't know, there was just something about it that felt different where I was trying to be very conscious of the fact that I could tell that you were in physical pain, but also emotionally, there was a big.

Switch from the idea of, you know, I was hoping to do an unmedicated vaginal birth. And, you know, there's. There's an empowerment in that for me.

You were, like, training for it, you know, Like, I remember we were staying with your dad for a little bit at your dad's place. And I'll never. I have photos of this. I'll never forget you and Bronx. And you're like. You're like, what, seven, eight months pregnant? I don't know, six months pregnant. I can't remember how many. How far along you were, but you were like, you were clearly pregnant. And you're in the living room doing a class, like a workout class, sweating your ass off and, like, you know, just doing burpees. Doing burpees and like, you know, working towards this. This sort of aim that you had, this vision that you had of having, you know, giving birth in a certain way.

So I think the shift that you're talking about is that I was hoping to have a very empowering moment with my body. And the recovery of the C section felt very disempowering. So it wasn't just that I didn't get to have the empowering experience I was hoping for. It's that it got swapped out with something that then put me into a place where I felt very disempowered.

Disempowered in the sense that, like, you really had to be cared for or incapable. Okay.

Yeah, yeah.

So, like, forced surrendering.

The cared for was not the pro. You know, I would have been cared for either way, I think.

Don't get it twisted.

Don't get it twisted.

But, you know, it was. It was that I was shifting from. My body's gonna do this incredible thing. Right. And like, sure, it might have tears, it might have. You know, it's going to go through its own thing, but let's not talk about the tears. Okay. But it's going to be incredible. It's going to be empowering. And. And instead it was. Your body just went through something significant.

Yeah.

And it did not feel empowering to me. Got it felt like, I can't do anything. I'm in pain constantly. My body, you know, just like that, you know, and so that was a very, very different experience than. Yeah, it was just not. Not expected.

Well, and that was. I mean, the interesting thing in the first few months of code being born was that, like, I really didn't know what. Like, I could feel that, and I kind of knew it. We talked about it, but I didn't really know what to do necessarily. You know, I think, like, the. The sort of, like, rational brain in me was, you know, obviously, like, wanting to fix that problem for you and take it away and. But it was very clear that as your partner, that was sort of out of my hands. And so I could make things a little bit easier and help and love you and, you know, check in on your internal state. But I had to trust that you were going to navigate your way through that challenge, you know. And then same with, same with later on when you were writing the manuscript with the book. Like, you know, I started writing my manuscript first, which was hilarious. Which couldn't have been, no, you don't want me to.

Which couldn't have been a better experience. I'm gonna, I'm gonna detour down that road. We're going down this road. So I'm writing my manuscript. I've started writing so legitimately. Code is born. We're in the hospital for a few days and we got out of the hospital after four days. We get sent home and I have two interviews with publishing houses the day we get back and I am wrecked. I'm exhausted. And I do the two interviews with the publishing houses. I'm a literary agent and they go well. And a couple weeks go by and I get a book offer, sign the book offer to write this book. I start writing this book and I get like three, three weeks, maybe four weeks into writing this book.

No, I feel like it was longer than that. Okay, maybe longer, I don't know.

Yeah, five or six weeks into writing this book. And I'm like, I am struggling, you know, I'm like, I'm not sleeping. Our child is up every two hours. I'm still trying to run my company that I've been away from for two months. I'm like, stressed out to the max, not sleeping. And as I'm writing this book, I'm realizing a couple of things. Number one, I've never written a book before, so I have almost zero clue about whether or not if what I'm writing is any good whatsoever. And that knowledge starts to make me spiral into this. Like, do I even know what the hell I'm writing about? Is this book going to be any good? Are people going to like this? Is it going to come out and bomb? You know, is this is what I'm writing garbage? And so being the self aware modern man that I am, I decide I'm going to bring this information to my wife.

And so one night I'm like, babe.

I don't know if I know any of what I'm writing about it. And like, is this book going to be any good? And what if people don't like it? And I'm clearly feeling some insecurity in this moment about the book that I'm writing. And her response is, Essentially some version of. Don't be ridiculous.

People are going to love it. Stop being so insecure and just write it.

Listen, I was postpartum. I was with a tiny newborn. These are all my excuses for such a terrible response.

It was such a hilarious response. And I remember we were in the kitchen of the house that we rented, and I was like. I remember looking at you and, like, pausing for probably a minute or two and then just being like, I can't wait until you start writing your book and we'll see how you feel.

Oh, yeah, sure.

As sure as shit. Like, four or five weeks into writing your book, you're like, I don't know if I know what I'm doing. You come out and you're like, I'm so sorry for. I know. For making you feel bad. You were, like, crying.

I know. Mine was probably even. I was like, can I give the advancement? Right? Make the book go away. I don't want to write it. Yeah, yeah.

We had some. We had some very real moments, and so.

Well, I think you just needed. You really wanted to tell that story.

I did want to tell that story.

Okay. But you are asking how having a child has affected our relationship.

Yeah. How would you say? Because, look, I mean, the. The real essence of what I wanted to talk about. And I think there's a ton of stuff that I want to talk about because we've been through a lot, Right. We had a child. We bought our first home, which. Not only did we buy our first home, we decided to build a home, which is a huge undertaking in and of itself. And we each wrote a book, and so we really, I feel, taxed. The system of our relationship, like, maxed. Taxed, you know, And I think that that's so relatable. I think a lot of the times, you know, I mean, think about how many couples you've worked with over the years where they take on a lot in their life and maybe more than they. And I don't know if we took on more than we should. Like, you know, we. We attracted those opportunities. And I feel like it's a. It was the right. Ish. Time for us each to write a book. Could we have, you know, spread it out a little bit, maybe? But I feel like it's so relatable that almost all relationships are going to go through a period where they're really. They're really maxed, you know, and there's a lot of stress and there's a lot of pressure and there's maybe a little bit more space or distance between the people in the relationship. I feel like that's so relatable. And, you know, I think we did a good job for the most part of moving our way through it. It was certainly challenging. But I wanted to talk about how did having a baby shift our lives, change our relationship, change the way we interact with one another, and then, like, how the hell. How the hell did we make it through that, you know, make it through that period? And, like, feel free to add in anything that you feel like I'm missing or. Or misrepresenting. I.

Well, it changed everything.

You know, a lot of the extra time, right. Was. Was given to code.

Like, the extra time that we would have for one another, for one another.

For ourselves, you know, and so you. You know, even though it's so easy to preach it, you're like, the family's only as strong as the couple is as strong as the individual, you know, but it's so hard to take care of the individual when that means that you're trading time with your child or. I think we probably put the couple to the side the most. I think we were prioritizing family and spending time with Code, and then every once in a while, you know, we would do some individual things. It's very indicative. I even recently said to you, like, we have not had 24 hours together, just us, since Code has been born. It's a problem, you know, and.

Well, and I think it's on my side. It has felt there's been, like, a normalization because we have actually, in my books, gone off and done a bunch of stuff.

We have.

We've. Right. We've done a lot of stuff together as a couple, but we haven't gone away as a couple or been removed from him for, you know, more than 24 hours. And so it's been. I hadn't even realized that when you said it, because I was like, well, we've been doing so much. Like, we've actually managed to really. I think maybe for the first few months, we didn't really do a lot, but we then really started to prioritize. Let's go on dates. Let's let, you know, grandma watch Code or, you know, a friend watch code and us go out. And so we have prioritized doing a lot of stuff. But. Yeah. So the moving aside of the couple.

Can you just say more about that? Because I think that that's a helpful distinction. So the individual, the couple, and the family, can you just say more about that and the balancing of those three entities?

It's hard. How do people balance those three? When you are in transition into a role, a new role, a new experience, I think eventually you probably. But I think that living this, you know, really showed how challenging it can be. You know, we were also both working, as you've said. As we've said, we were writing books, you know, on top of working as well. So there were a lot of things that were being juggled at the time, but realizing, you know, you only. You do only have so many hours in the day and when the option is to spend time with your child or whatever else, you know, most of the time we were wanting to choose spending time with Code. And so even, I know sometimes individually we would work out or, I don't.

Know, hang out with friends, whatever it was.

Right. But there wasn't a ton of time to nurture that. And I think writing the book certainly contributed to that. I think had we not been writing.

Books, we probably would have had more time for us because it did seem like Code would go to bed, we'd put him down at 7. And when I was writing my book, I would go back to writing my book.

Right.

And when you were writing your book, you'd go back to writing your book.

Right.

So the time that we would normally have at night was allocated to, like, especially in those final months, you know, of pushing to get the book done. It's like, holy crap. Yeah, you're just. You're just in it full blast.

Right? So I think that the couple got sacrificed a bit and it probably didn't feel as severe because we were working from home. We were never leaving home. We were seeing each other a ton. Right. So it was like, we're spending lots of time together. No, we're not. You know, we're in passing. We're in space. And so I think it's interesting to identify that the couple probably got deprioritized.

I just. I love that framework. Like, I love that notion of, especially when you start a family, that there's sort of three systems at play. Right? There's each individual, then there's the relationship. Right. The couple, and then there's the family.

Right, Right.

And so, you know, I love that idea because it's very simple to look at. Do you think that there was a way to equally prioritize all three based on what we had going on or did something. Because I often hear people asking, you know, it's like, with everything going on in my life, like, something has to get sacrificed. And it's almost like, yeah, I think for a period of time, maybe that's true, depending on what's going on.

I'd reframe that, though. You know, I think that when we speak about it as if something has to get sacrificed, we. I like to think about it as what's being prioritized is different. That language, there's a shift there. It doesn't mean that there isn't a sacrifice that's happening, certainly. And.

The lens through which we explore that when we say, oh, this was a chapter where prioritizing our child made sense, it made sense to prioritize him over what maybe I needed sometimes individually. And I'm not saying eradicate the individual or eradicate the couple, but I think we're in. We have chapters of life where something is being asked to be prioritized. And, you know, I think with kids, I don't know that there will ever be a chapter with code. Right. Where we're not prioritizing him, but I think it changes based on his development and his age. Right. He now, thank goodness, is sleeping through the night. We don't have to wake up with him every couple of hours. You know, there's things that change and develop. So even though we may always prioritize certain things for code, the chapter of the relationship within the family changes. It is different. And so I think we were prioritizing the family more than we were prioritizing the individual and the couple. And I don't know that we. I don't think we would have changed that.

No.

But we may have found ways to honor certain things slightly differently in that space.

Like what? What do you mean?

We may have found ways to honor that we were going before either one of us got right back into writing our book, once we put code down that we would take 20 minutes to sit with each other and just connect. Or, you know, like, we might have found little moments to say, hey, the couple needs to be nurtured a little bit more, or the individual needs to be nurtured a little bit more. You know, it was always just so fast, right? It was like, okay, all right, I've got 20 minutes. All right. Jumping on the peloton for 20. You know, nothing was ever. What's the word I want to use?

It was fast. It was like. It was fast paced and go, go, go. I do think that. I do think that we did. We did a really good job of prioritizing one another as individuals. You know, it was like, okay, you need to work out. Okay, you need some time to write. Okay, you need time to meditate. And we would, you know, we would do that for one another. And we also, I think, did a really good job at the divide and conquer. You know, it's like, okay, I couldn't do the nights. And you were so good at them. You know, you just were so good at being up with code and being patient. And I had, I, like, literally after six, seven months of him waking up so much at night, I was like, I can't handle this because we were, we were co. Sleeping, right? Like we had him in our room and it was just, I was just done with that. Like, my body just was not enjoying that at all. And so we, you know, we did a good job of creating a system. Right? It's like you take them at night when he'd wake up at 6 o' clock in the morning and he'd be up and I would take him and I would take the morning shift and he'd sleep. And so I think we did a really good job of prioritizing what we individually needed in order to maintain a sense of connection and presence and, you know, all those types of pieces. But yeah, I think we didn't necessarily prioritize the moments of togetherness, as you would say, you know, prioritize the relationship as much as needed. Because I think, I mean, I just think we were so exhausted, you know, and I think the moments that we did that, it was like, let's just sit here and watch Jeopardy. For 20 minutes. Oh my gosh.

We started watching Jeopardy.

I mean, we were basically like 80 years old. You know, I was like, we were so tired. It's like, let's watch Jeopardy for 20 minutes. And just, you know, that was like our form of relaxation. You know, it got real bad there for a bit when we started watching Wheel of Fortune.

And yeah, you know, life has gone downhill when it doesn't stop at Jeopardy.

Yeah, it doesn't stop at Jeopardy. Like, you don't, you don't turn it. You're just like so tired and you're like, I'm not even going to change the channel. Like Wheel of Fortune is going to come on. I know I'm not going to enjoy this, but I'm just going to let this happen. You know, there was a couple nights where that would happen and then I started to snap out of it. I was like, what is this?

What has happened to our lives?

But yeah, you know, I, I just, I like that framework. So I think being aware of that, like, you know, if, if and when we have a second Child being aware of that, like, you know, checking in once a week to see, okay, the individual. How. How do I feel as an individual? Am I being prioritized? What I need, my routines, my habits, working out, et cetera. And then looking at the couple and then looking at the family. I like just, you know, the notion of being able to do that and knowing that at certain points it's going to ebb and flow. Right. Where some things are going to have to take a priority sometimes over other things. And discussing that, I think, openly.

Yeah, I think one of the things. We were fairly neutralized, I'd say, because.

What do you mean?

You were writing a book. I was writing a book. We both worked from home. Neither one of us was doing much outside of the home. I worked out. You worked out. You know, a lot of couples, the issue that presents is the lack of fairness. And so what I mean for us that it was neutralized was that, I don't know, that a ton felt unfair at the beginning. Right. For a chunk of time, even when I didn't feel like it was unfair that I was taking the night shift because then I would sleep in the morning. When you would take him, that felt fair to me. That worked. Got it. And I think generally speaking, you taking him in the morning felt fair to you because you didn't. You slept through the night.

Yeah.

And then it wasn't like you were leaving home, going to work, having work dinners with people, going out, enjoy, you.

Know, going and partying, whatever.

Oh, yeah. Club hopping. Yeah, right.

No, but I. I got you. So it's. So what you're saying is that when. When a relationship is going through a really taxing time, when a couple is going through maybe a period of. Of high stress and whatnot, that it's important to, like, maintain a sense of fairness. Do you feel like that worked in our benefit? Because I would say that that was really helpful, that there was a sense of fairness for. For a very long period of time. Like, I feel like that was that, like, helped us.

Absolutely.

Okay. Yeah.

I think fairness is underrated. People think that word is. You know, we use that language for kids. It's fair. It's not fair. Life's unfair.

No. As human beings, people naturally want things to feel fair, and when things start to feel unfair, resentment builds. There's a bit imbalance.

There's a big. I mean, that's a big topic, though. Do we want to go into fairness?

No, we don't have to. I'm just saying that I think there was a Neutralizing that took place because of what we were both going through and that there was enough fairness in the relationship.

Yeah, we were both contributing. We were both contributing something meaningful and substantial. You know, we were prioritizing one another. I was making room for you to go and work out and write, and you were doing the same thing for me for the most part, when I. Like when I needed to go and work out and write, et cetera. What. What are you giggling about?

It's because you said I did it for you, and then you said you did it for me for the most part.

Well, because you genuinely. We've talked about this. Lacked a little bit of empathy and sympathy for what I was going through because I wrote my book first.

Right, right, right, right.

And so you didn't have a full context for what I was going through until you started going through it and then realized, oh, shit. Like, I get what he's been saying.

Yes, that's true.

Yeah. So, okay, so we add in some other complications or. Where should we take this now? So we start building. The house code is born. A few months after he's born, we lose Bronx. And then I think it was a couple months.

A few weeks after he was born.

Yeah, a few weeks. Yeah. A few weeks after co's born, we lose Bronx. Beautiful experience. We're there with him, you know, we hold him and. And whatnot. His transitions. And then. And then I find out my mom has cancer, right. I find out that she's got stage four liver colon cancer, and.

I am stuck in America.

I remember it just being like. It makes me emotional to. To, like, say it and talk about it, because it was. I think it was a very charged period. You know, for a few weeks there, where I was waiting for my green card, right? So I didn't have my green card and I couldn't leave the country because I had overstayed here. And so if I left and went back home to Canada to see my mom, then there was a very high probability that. That I wouldn't get let back in the country. Meaning that we would have had to, like, move to Canada or some shit.

You wouldn't have been able to return for three years.

Yeah, I wouldn't have been able to return those states for three years. So.

Yeah, you're. You were.

I was writing. I think I was in the final couple months of writing the manuscript. Right?

Yeah, but I think that's not what I was gonna say. What I was gonna say is that you were face to face with. Well, your mom. Your mom Is still living.

Yes. She's still alive. Yep.

But you were. You didn't know how much time she had left. And so, you know, the. The conundrum was, am I not gonna be able to see my mom before she dies?

Yeah. And will she not be able to meet my son?

Will she not be able to meet my son?

Which was like. I mean, that was hard. You know, like, even just now, it's like, I mean, she did get to meet him, and, you know, hopefully we get to go and see them again soon. But I think just the notion of the decisions that I've made in my life had led me to this spot where I might not be able to go back and see my mom before she passes. And that was, you know, it was very challenging, but also upsetting in the sense that, like, I felt a sense of, like, powerlessness. You know, I was stuck between, like, a rock and a hard place. It's like, well, if I leave and go back and see my mom, then I'm risking being with my family, you know, and everything that I've built here, and if I stay, that I risk not being there for my mom in her final chapter.

Yeah.

You know, and so it was really. And then, you know, the thought of her not getting to meet code felt like I might get robbed of something. You know, I think that that was. There. There was sort of like a little bit of, like, an anger there. Were you.

Do you think you were angry at me because we were in the States and you felt like you wanted to be in Canada, and we were here because of me?

Yeah. I mean, a little bit. Yeah. Yeah, I think. I think a little bit that was in the background. Yeah. I mean, I love British Columbia, and I think it. You know, we've always talked about going back there and. Or at least moving out west in the next year or two, but I think, yeah, I was a little upset. I mean, I think I was more upset at, like, government, you know, like, the stupid bureaucracies and red tape and, like, just how fucking nonsensical some of the process, you know, really seemed to me in that moment where I remember speaking to my lawyer and saying, like, is there not, like, a kind of exemption when you have a dying parent? Like, this is. This is absurd. Like, this seems inhumane. You know, it's like, you got to stay in this country and prove how bad you want to be here. It's like, what the.

It wasn't that. It was that you had overstayed.

Sure. I. I understand that. I could. Yeah. I understand that, but at the same time, you know, it seems like they're like, it. It. It put me into this place of looking at big government systems and having a bit of animosity towards the inhumane treatment that we actually allow legislation to impose on us sometimes. Right. So, yeah, she's making the comeback come back to what we're talking about. Motion, like, don't go off. Yeah, we could. That. We could talk about that for a while, but we'll. We'll come back into what we're actually talking about. So. Yeah, but, you know, so there was this added stress of family and loss. And so it was very. That dichotomy or juxtaposition of, like, welcoming life in and raising life and, you know, seeing consciousness come online in our son and my boy, you know, and watching him interact with the world and how beautiful that was and holding this, like, very unique quality of joy and gratitude and aliveness with the grief of losing Bronx. And then the diagnosis that my mom was given. And it was a. It was a very challenging space to be in. And we had, you know, thankfully, we have pretty open communication, so we had some good conversations about logistically, different possibilities. Right. Like, what we were going to do if, you know, she was going to pass or something like that and needing to have those conversations. But what would you say got us through, like, those types of moments? Like, what allowed us to move through what from the outside? Because I think I remember talking to some friends, and they're like, how are the two of you getting through all this? You know, like, how are you making it through what seems to be an incredibly challenging time that I think for a lot of people would. Would put a strain on their marriage or their relationship that, you know, could. Could break it.

I hate to give an underwhelming answer, but, you know, I don't say love.

I think, is the fact that we continued to talk about things and to continue to share what was really being felt and vulnerability. You know, I think that when you're going through hard things that can easily break you, that vulnerability is a salve to that.

Okay. Yeah.

Meaning, like, when I found you vulnerable or when you found me vulnerable, you think about the way that. That energetically would shift a conversation immediately. Right. If I could feel your heart or you could feel my heart. So instead of you saying, well, then we're just gonna have to move to Canada, you know, that is a unworkable conversation for me.

I think that would have probably gone.

Over great versus, not that you have to break down but, you know, to show your sadness, to show the emotion, right? To connect to what's actually happening. And so I think, you know, to stay on the surface of trying to, you know, solve the problem, fix something. What's the solution? You know, sure, those conversations are necessary at certain points, but I think we did a decent enough job of having conversations that connected to the vulnerability of what both of us were. Were feeling and going through. It's not the only thing, you know, that was happening at that time. We'll probably have another podcast at some point to talk about other aspects. Other aspects? Yeah, there was so cryptic.

You're just making people want to come back for more with your. With your mysterious ways.

Oh, my gosh. Yeah, but, you know, it's like there was a. There. There was a lot. There is a lot.

And yeah, it's layered. You know, I think, like in the last two years about what has, I mean, honestly, the most arguably, like the most challenging two years of my life as an individual, for sure, unequivocally, but also the most beautiful, the most wondrous, awe inspiring. You know, I mean, it's just. It really has put me in contact with the fullness of life, like the possibility of how full life can be. And I think that sometimes in our culture, we oftentimes just want to feel the fullness of joy and happiness and feeling good and growth and expansion. But I think the last year, two years, has really been about accepting in and loving as best as I could and appreciating all of it, you know, the grief, the joy and everything in between. And I think that that has been, you know, that's been the hard part, but I think it's also been what has allowed us to. To move through this time effectively is that we both, you know, I think we both did our part in being able to embrace the. The rawness and the fullness of what we were experiencing and how much was going on. But I think we also, you know, you used the word vulnerability. I think, yes, there was some vulnerability, but I think it was more for me about recognizing the truth of what was going on and being able to be transparent and honest about. This is what I'm thinking. This is what I'm feeling. This is what I'm battling or struggling with. And for you doing the same thing. And I think us having other resources besides one another, you know, I think that you having the women in your life that have fundamentally supported you through what you've gone through, and I think me having the men in my life that have also really, really helped. You know, I mean, I talk to them every week and talk to one of them today. And I think having those that support network. I read a quote, Francis Weller, of course, said something to the terms of like, the, you know, a relationship is raised by the village. And I love that notion that every great relationship is likely going to be made or broken in some ways based on the community that they surround themselves by. And so I think that also acknowledging the people who have helped hold us up, you know, as individuals who have loved us through some hard times.

Yeah. I think one of the things that you said.

I was like, oh, that's well said. Is that we were feeling everything that needed to be felt. And from the grief to the joy to the sadness to the heartbreak to the we were in it.

Do we have to feel it all? You know, I think. But I like, I'm not mocking you or the concept that you're saying. I think it's really fucking hard, you know, to feel all of that constantly, continually. It really is challenging, I think, for me.

But can you stop it?

That's a. You could debate. Yes, you can stay. I mean, in the past, I stopped that by, you know, womanizing and drinking or whatever.

But it still lived inside of you.

Sure, it still is inside, but I could do a good job of moving away from it and forgetting about it and maintaining that connection to growth, ascension, you know, get it, blah, blah, blah. And it was sort of illusory in a lot of ways, like, fictional in some ways. But, you know, I think. I think our culture just promotes continual growth and expansion and kind of demotes the idea that there's merit in grief. You know, it's like we have a grief phobic culture that people are afraid to be. To feel grief about. You know, I felt a lot of grief becoming a father in terms of, like, my loss of it was something I was afraid of, but also like the loss of freedom in the sense of, like.

I wasn't just responsible for myself anymore. Yeah.

You know, but I think that's what I was saying is that we felt everything. We felt the joy, we felt the grief. What you're saying, I think is just maybe reiterating is that a lot of people don't like to feel the grief. You've heard me say this before. When in doubt, grieve. When in doubt, grieve. When in doubt, grieve Right. When stuck, grieve. When face to face with the same old pattern, grieve.

I'm just so used to working with men, that I can hear the, like, how do I do that? You know, And I think I. I've been stuck on that in the past as well, where there's been a notion of, well, if I'm a man who is grieving, then I'm not an effective man, that I'm a man who somehow not able to perform, not able to provide or protect as effectively. I'm a man who is. Right. Those are the notions and stories that I've held in the past. And I think, honestly, part of what has been interesting in the last two years is that story has been kind of disproven because I've been. I've grieved a lot, you know, through a lot of stuff, and the amount that I've accomplished is still astronomical.

You know, I mean, I don't think men are alone in that narrative. I think I held that narrative. That feeling was weak. And, you know, I. I wanted to hold on to the story that I was unaffected and unbothered by anything and everything. I thought that that's what made me cool.

Yeah. But I think that you, you also had a. Much like you had a pretty masculine forward orientation before we met. Would you agree?

Yeah.

Okay. I'm just saying that that's. That it's not that women can't experience that. I think all that I'm trying to say is that that is a more masculine orientation to adapt, like a more masculine oriented mindset.

That feeling your feelings makes you weak. Like, I don't think that the majority of women have no idea.

I think socialized feelings. Feelings makes you weak too. Yeah, I mean, I think socialized. Right to. Yes, of course. That is what boys hear much more than what girls hear. Right. And the reason why I was just pausing in that is like, I think it's, you know, your coping strategy.

Right.

Your survival strategy, your safety strategy. Right. Is, you know, for so many folks, it's to move into that space. Right.

Numb it out.

Yeah. Numb it out, avoid it out, numb it out, pretend it out, neglect it out, you know, whatever you want to call it.

And.

But going back to how. How does one grieve or, you know, how does one not see that as unproductive? Is that what you said? Like, when I'm grieving, I can't be productive.

Yeah. That grief doesn't equal a diminishment in your capacity to live with a sense of purpose or be competent or be capable.

Listen, it may. It may diminish it for a period of time.

Okay.

You know, I Think that sometimes we're like, it won't, it won't. And it's like, no, it might, you know, you might be crying for hours and that might block you from being able to send your work email. Like work. Send your work email. Or it might keep you from building the thing that you wanted to build outside or, you know, so I think there's a space to say like, yeah, sure. It actually may make you less traditionally productive in the sense of, am I getting something done? But you know, there's a subtlety to what you're getting done is you're feeling what needs to be felt so that you can be a more productive, connected present human being.

Yeah, well, yeah. And it's revoking or rejecting that the human elements of who you are diminish, diminish your value as a person. I think that oftentimes one of the things that I've seen over the years in my own life and in the men that I've worked with is that there's this diminishment that. Well, yeah, let me put this a different way. There's this notion that my value as a man comes in my ability to produce and provide. And so if anything gets in the way of my capacity to do those things, specifically feeling, right, feeling grief, feeling sadness, that that's going to diminish my value as a man, my value in my relationship, my value to society, my value, my worth, my ability to earn, to, to provide, et cetera. And so I think that's. That's what I was really pointing to is that sometimes that's the thing that gets in the way.

But it's the human thing that we often. Because it's a very sometimes helpless place to be. It can feel dark.

Yeah. I mean, I think that the rejection of grief is a need to control. And control is the illusion of safety. Control is the illusion of I am the put together man, I am the whatever.

Well, I see it. Yeah. And control is the illusion of power as well.

Yes.

Right. So I'll be safe and I'll be powerful if I can just control everything.

Yeah, but that's what I'm saying. The rejection of grief is the need to control.

Can I ask you a strange question? What do you think or feel that you've learned about men by being with me or just in the context of our relationship? Like, what do you feel or think that you've learned about men? Because I've learned a lot about women by being with you and how certain women think or operate and like different Archetypes of women. I'm just curious. Maybe this has no relevance to this conversation or podcast.

Well, I'm curious where it came from or why you're asking me.

Because I think that we, we've just gone through a really hard period, both in our individual lives, but also in our relationships. And I think that we've learned a lot about who we are as people, but I think we've also been learning a lot about who we are in terms of how a man or a woman goes through things. Right. Like you've gone through something giving birth, you know, in the way that it unfolded, that taught me a lot about what it is to be a woman and what that might be like and what that must feel like because I'll never go through that experience. Right. I'll never be pregnant and give birth to a child and, and have a C section. Like those just, those just aren't things that I will ever experience. And so it's given me insight into like the female experience in some ways. And that's all.

Yeah, I mean, I guess I don't necessarily think about it exactly that way. I think about what it's taught me about you.

Uh huh. Okay. Do you want to say more about that?

Well, yeah, I mean, like, and I think you might be a representation of some men.

Sure.

You know, and I might be a representation of some kick ass men.

Some arrogant. Some arrogant.

Yeah, like, I, I don't know. I. I mean, I've certainly learned without question, I've learned a lot, but I don't think about it of like, oh, I understand men now. I think I understand you better by being with you.

Okay, well, let's, let's talk about what has the last two years taught each of us about the other person? Like the good, the bad, and the ugly. Because I like, I think every couple should do this in some ways, you know, have some form of process where they can reflect in this way. I mean, we talk very. I think, I think one of the gifts that we have in our marriage is like our communication. You know, sometimes it's not great, you know, sometimes we still get into arguments and have conflict. But. But I would say that one of the gifts that we have is our ability to communicate and understand one another most of the time. Yeah.

I mean, this is a really big question.

Okay.

The good, the bad, the ugly.

Like what I have learned about me.

What I've learned about you.

Maybe I shouldn't ask this question two years. Why don't you start with the real? Just hit me with the ugly shit first.

So we can work our way up to the good stuff. End on the high note, you know? I mean, start wherever you want. I don't want you. I don't want to put you on the spot.

No, well, I. It's not. I don't feel like I'm put on the spot. I just feel like this is a very meaningful and thoughtful question, so it's very hard for me to, like, just generate an answer quickly.

Should we save this for part two of the conversation? Like, what we learned during the most tumultuous period of our life?

Yeah, probably. Yeah. I'm really not trying to skirt the answer. I just. This feels like a gift, and I don't want to just come up with anything and rush it. I've learned a lot about you, and I think so much of it is incredible. Right. There's a lot of things that were already there that you continue to show that you are a thoughtful, considerate, generous, loving, grounded human. I think there's plenty that.

I think I met some of your limitations and parts of yourself that maybe are hard to look at.

Like my anger.

Anger reactivity. I think, you know, in. In terms of what I felt like maybe code was offering to you or.

Damn little teacher.

Damn little teacher.

Not even. Not even two years old, teaching me all the big lessons.

All the big lessons. I think that I'm reminded that sometimes even the best of us can know something to be true about others, but not always believe it for ourselves.

I don't know if I know what you mean by that.

Like, you're not weak for feeling, and I think we would tell anybody that.

Well, I think there was moments where, like, I just didn't know how to handle everything that was going on. I know with everything that I was dealing with internally and externally.

Yeah.

And that probably maybe sounds cryptic to people out there, but I think hopefully people have a sense of what we're talking about, But I think there was just moments where it was, like, I felt the responsibility to hold everything down. Especially after the birth happened and after you had the C section. Like, I don't think that I actually put down the. I need to, like, make sure that everything is solid, and I think that that, like, wore me out eventually and.

Yeah, well, that's it. I mean, I think there's a lot of things that have been wearing you out.

Yeah, well, I think there's been one or two specific things, but.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's for the next podcast.

Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. Fair. Yeah. I mean, I think it's been interesting because I, I. The reason why I asked the question is, you know, I find that on the other side, you know, like in alchemy, they talk about the road of ashes, the descent, you know, this, this period in our life where we, where we're not expanding and growing and everything's going super well and everything's super amazing, and. Da, da, da. It's the period where emotionally, psychologically, relationally, like, things start to decay and fall apart. And it's a very, very hard time to be in, in this, you know, in this period of dissension in some ways, and especially when there's so many good things happening in life. And I feel like relationally, not that, like something catastrophic happened in our relationship. But, you know, I, but I think that, you know, I do think that relationally we entered into a bit of, like, what, you know, people in the spiritual place called, you know, Dark Night of the Soul or like the Road of Ashes, and where it was challenging, you know, it really was a, A challenging period to be in and to make sense of. And I think a lot of that was because each of us individually were going through so much, you know, you were going through so much with recovering and becoming a mom and writing the book, and I was going through so much with becoming a dad and recovering and writing the book. And it's like, you know, I thought there was just merit in being able to see and say what we saw in each other, but I think maybe we can save that for the next one.

Yeah, I mean, I think that there is so much that comes from the dark, if you know how to be in it.

And that's what you were saying before about the feeling and the grief. Right. It's like the not feeling, not grieving.

Rejecting grief keeps you in that space.

And I think it's that there's a fear. Right. Of being out of control. Path. Right, right. And whatever it is that's associated with that. Right. Which for so many people, there's a lot of narratives of what it means to be out of control. Right. And I guess I just haven't found any other way. I don't think you get through life well without grieving.

That's, that's, that's pretty fair. Yeah, I would agree with that.

You know, I think it is one of the things that, that we avoid the most. And yet it is probably the thing that we need the most. Right. We save it for death. You know, you think grieving for death when you lose someone and it's like, no, no, there's grief everywhere, all the time. We're just not present to it. We're just not connected to it. We don't know its use in our lives.

And when you can use it in your life, it is the most freeing, opening, healing, expansive thing. You know, it might be one of the most important tools that we have.

Yeah, learning, learning almost like how to be capable in grieving and allowing grief. I think the big. If I can just step in for a moment. I think the challenge is often that. But when at least getting my own experience and from working with people is when we start to recognize our grief and see what it's putting us into relationship with or contact with, it can feel overwhelming. It's like, well, if I dip my toes into that water, will I ever come back out? I hear a lot of guys say that. It's like, if I start to go down that path of feeling those things, like, how am I going? Like, will I ever come back from that? You know, and it's like, it really is like entering into the cave to face the dragon. It's like, will I come back out of this? You know, and will I see the light of day again? Or is this fundamentally going to change who I am? And it's like, well, maybe the answer is, yes, it is going to fundamentally change who you are, of course. And. But why is it a bad thing? You know, because oftentimes, sometimes grief is a kind of mechanism that comes in and changes us and changes our life in a way that we can't consciously sort of replicate or create for ourselves. You know, that there's. That there's a kind of change and creation that can emerge from grief that is just the kind that we don't necessarily like that we wouldn't choose. You know, there's things that have happened in the last couple years that I wouldn't choose, you know, that have happened in my life as an example. But the process of grieving has slowly allowed me to see the function, to see the value, to see the worth. Would you agree with most of that?

Yeah, I mean, I think I talk a lot about, you know, taking eyes wide open risks. And, you know, if grief feels like a risk, you don't need to just like jump into it by yourself. And you're like, well, I heard these two fools talking about grieving and so I better do it. You know, I think the eyes wide open aspect of that is beginning to understand why it is so scary and what feels unsafe about it. And yeah, when we think about will I Ever come out of it? What does that mean? Will I be stuck in depression forever? Will I not want to live in my body? Will it, you know, where. Where does the mind go? And beginning to just be with the fears and the constraints around grieving, Right. And then another layer of eyes wide open. Risk taking is like, well, is there someone safe in your life who can support you as you dip a toe into grief? Right. Like, maybe you don't go all the way in, Right. Maybe you take a moment to share, like, one thought about what it's like to have a parent who still to this day doesn't understand your experience, you know, and then like, okay, be done with it, Right? And then come back a week later and maybe talk about that a little bit more, you know, And I think sometimes we forget, you know, like, don't have to go deep down immediately, you know, you don't have to adjust. Go right into the core of it. Right. Like some. It's okay to go slow. It's okay to go at a pace that works for you. It's okay to have support. It's okay to trust someone before you make that move. Right. You know, part of this is like believing that you can come out of something. Right. And so I think it's very important that that narrative has as a different possibility, Right. For folks who are like, I'm too afraid to do that. What if I never come out? What if I never come out? We don't hear them often saying, there's a possibility that I come out. Or, you know, like, it's very focused on what could go wrong, you know, and what does that serve? What is that protecting you from? Right. How has that been of service to you in the past? Right. Oh, our systems are so brilliant. They're so beautiful. They work so hard at protecting us from something that feels overwhelming and scary for us. You know, maybe you had a parent who was lost in, you know, a mental health challenge their entire lives, Right. And you're scared of going into that makes sense. And it doesn't mean that it's the wrong thing for you to do. You know, it's like that's that begins the work, Right. Is that sometimes to even enter into grief, you know, the practice of it, the experience of it, requires you to process the constraints for a long time before you do it.

Yeah. And I still don't think we move through this life well without it.

Yeah. And I think our relationship has been a good container in some ways for each of us to explore that grief individually and to Sometimes express it when needed, you know, and that's been a wonderful gift in many, many ways. You know, I think I would wish that for people, you know, to have some relationship in their life, you know, that's close and meaningful outside of like a therapy. I mean, having a therapy relationship is great too, but. But outside of like a therapist, where you have someone that is in your life actively that, you know, the two of you can share grief with one another, I think that's such a valuable, you know, such a valuable thing. I mean, I look at, like, initiation and what boys go through and they, you know, or. Or what young men go through, and they often come out the other side, you know, having shared this huge experience. And there's a kind of grief to it, you know, a losing of their youth and et cetera. But they share that with the other people that they go through that with. And I think oftentimes our relationship is done that. Right. Where one of us is grieving something that's very challenging.

Do you think that a reason we struggle, why some people struggle with grief is that, as I was saying before, it's often associated with death. And since with death, we don't get the person back, there isn't.

There's a finality. Yeah. I think that grief leads to, you know, grief is in many ways, there's an interesting relationship between grief and limitations. Right. Cause in some ways we're grieving because there's been an end, there's been a closure. There's been. There's some form of like a final moment.

Acceptance. Yeah.

And then. But then also that grief will. Can lead us to a sense of closure, you know, like a real meaningful one, maybe. On the other side of that, I do think that it's associated with death in the sense that we're often grieving because there's been a death of something, you know, a death of a career or a business or a relationship or a person or a period in our lives or a part of ourselves, you know, that like, feels like it's dying away. And so the grief comes up, but.

If I can't get it back, then it can't get better.

Is that the perspective? Yeah, I mean, I think. I think that people, you know, Stephen Jenkinson would say that we live in a death phobic culture. Right. And I like that notion. And because I don't think it's just about the death of a person. I think that we're death phobic in the sense that, that we often cling to, well, the relationship used to look like this. And I want that back. And we can't accept the iteration that's in front of us, the unfolding that it's becoming. And so we cling to how it was before. And largely because we don't want to grieve. Right. We don't want to feel the pain of what we've lost or come to terms with the limitation or the ending that has taken place. So, yeah, I would say that those two things are heavily, heavily connected. And I think that's been a part of.

I was really asking you, though, about, you know, as you said, there's some people you work with who. I don't want to grieve because I'm gonna become unproductive or I'm, you know, I'm not gonna be able to live my life, you know, And I was asking if you thought that that's because grieving doesn't get the perspective is that it doesn't give me some.

There isn't something that you're getting in.

Return, the relief isn't that you get the thing back.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would agree with that. Yeah. I mean, I think people are often trying to sort of barter or negotiate with life or universe or God or whatever to get the thing back that is causing them the grief. Right. The relationship, the whatever it is, the person, et cetera.

You know, I think in some ways, grieving is the. Can be the act of finality, too.

Yeah.

So the rejection of grieving is the clinging to.

It's like holding on to even just the image or the memory of what was. Right. Rather than letting that it says it hasn't ended, like holding on to what the relationship looked like or, you know, holding onto the person or whatever it is. I think that's very true. Yeah. It's a clinging to what was. Can I just say one more thing about that?

Yeah.

I think that we do that personally as well. Right. Like, we don't want to lose parts of ourselves, and I think that we actually block our own. I don't want to use the word transformation because I think it's just so cliche, but, like, we actually. We block our own evolution. I think psychologically, we block our own psychological evolution and emotional evolution sometimes because what we are afraid of is that real growth and change actually requires forms of death. Real growth and change is as much a personal letting go and unbecoming and a letting go of past habits and beliefs and patterns to die away. And there is a tremendous amount of grief that comes with that. And so we, you know, we have to. We have to be able to acknowledge that along the way. What were you gonna say?

I forgot.

You lost it.

Yeah.

Come on, Mio.

Yeah, I forgot.

Well, we should probably start to wrap this up here soon. So coming back to us.

When you think about what has allowed us to go through this time in a meaningful way and to come out the other side in a meaningful way, what are you grateful for? What are you grateful for? What would you say has allowed us to move. To move through this. Anything that we haven't covered yet?

I hold a deep belief that you and I can get through anything.

I don't know if that's good. I don't know what that says about me.

All the things. Therapist, listening to this or, like, analyzing you right now.

Yeah, but I do, I, I. That doesn't waver for me.

Well, I do. I think that as a couple, I mean, I believe that as well. I do think that we can get through incredibly hard things. I've noticed in myself this notion of, like, learning things through hardness, like, like needing the hard moments in order to learn the lesson.

And I think part of what I've started to see over the last couple of years is like. Like, oh, yeah, there it is again. There's that pattern again. I don't need to learn things through this hard way. And so I feel that shifting. For me, that's great, but I.

That's really good to hear.

Yeah, that's wonderful. Yeah. But I do think that, that having that as a tenant within the relationship is important, you know, that, that you believe that you can, like, choose a partner that you think you can go through hard with. You know, because if not, I mean. Yeah. I mean, if I didn't think that I could go through hard moments in life with you, I probably would have bounced, you know, before any of the hardships started to show up or like, when things got hard. So it's like, well, you're not gonna be able to handle this, or we're not gonna be able to make it through.

Yeah, I mean, I think that certainly, I think we go into it like that, but until you are in the hard stuff, you know, no one's ever. I don't think either one of us expected this version of hard. Right?

What do you mean, this version?

Our version of hard?

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

No, that's not something that was even in the realm of, of possibility. And again, we'll talk more about this at some point.

Well, because I think when people, like, just to be clear, like, no, Affair has happened. Like. Like. Because when I think people think about, like, relational hardship, they're. The, like, normalcy of that is like some.

Right.

Some catastrophic terror has taken place, like an affair or something like that, that has caused a rift between the couple. And that's not been our case.

No, this has been an individual thing that has affected the relationship.

And so, plus, what we're describing in this episode, this conversation, is the hardship of going through massive transition, massive change, both within the individual and the couple, and then also the stress of overwhelm, which I think, think, oh, yeah, and all of that happened while we were going through a fucking pandemic.

Oh, yeah, that too.

Yeah, that too. Right.

Yeah.

So, you know, and I think that that's what's relatable. I think that a lot of couples have gone through. A lot of relationships have gone through overwhelm, stress, massive hardship. And so what final thoughts would you leave people with in terms of how to go through those moments of high stress, high overwhelm as a unit? Because it's. It's incredibly challenging.

It is. I mean, just stress is just so terrible, you know, it's just so terrible.

And it's hard in the body, hard in the mind, hard in the relationship, hard on intimacy, everything.

You know, community, connection, spaces where you can share your own introspection, your ability to see your part. You know, if you can't see your part, there's just a recipe for disaster. You know, it really. You must see your part, and then you must take the steps to own it.

Anything else that we need to say to end off on? I mean, I'm grateful for you as well. I can return the volley of gratitude. I can return the volley of gratitude. Dude. Now that I know some tennis language.

Oh, boy.

Yeah, we won't tell that story. I mean, I'm very grateful for who you've been for our son. I can't say that enough. It's really been magical to see you with him. Like, I love being a dad, and I love him so much, and it's been such a joy for me to have a son and to just get to play with him and whatnot. But it's been wonderful to see you interact with him and. And I'm grateful for your commitment to. Yeah. Your own inner exploration to, like, seeing your part. I think that is incredibly important and valuable and helpful in our relationship then for me, because sometimes I don't. Sometimes I don't want to do that. You know, Like, I'm. I'm good at it. Usually but then there's sometimes where I just want you to be at fault for it, you know, I just want you to be wrong. Like this is like. I don't want it to be me anymore, you know.

Not that it's always me. Right. It's. It's a good, fair shake of both of us. But I'm grateful to have a partner who is eloquent and wise and introspective. And I'm grateful for how you've shown up in the last couple years of our relationship because I know you've been going through a lot, becoming a mom, going through the transition, everything that we talked about today, the shifts in your business, the shifts in your personal life, the shifts in and our location and where we live and what our life looks like. There's been a lot of change in transition. And so I just, I am very grateful for you doing what has been necessary for you to explore that transition because I know it hasn't been easy for you to undertake. Yeah. So with that said, this is part one.

I'm sure we'll have part two and part three soon, maybe in a couple months. Who knows when that'll come out. Hopefully we won't wait as long as we have since the last conversation to have the next one. And thanks to everybody for tuning in. If you have thoughts, if you have questions, message us. Let us know what was valuable to you, what you'd like to hear us talk more about. Let us know if you have questions that we can answer. Maybe we do like a follow up, like Q and A or something like that where we'll just answer the questions that you send us. And so, so feel free to DM me man talks and I'll collect them. And whatever questions you have from how to navigate hardship, how to navigate tough times in your relationship, or anything else that we talked about in today's little jam session. So thank you so much for tuning in. And as always, this is Connor Beaton signing off.

Sam.