BEMPATHY with Jill Payne: How Banter + Empathy Are Changing Mental Health Conversations

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What's up, my good people. Welcome to the CJ Moneyway Show in association with Believe Network, the podcast that brings you stories, Behind Success, Resilience, and Transformation. I'm your host, CJ Moneyway, and today we have a special guest who has spent over 40 years working in the mental health field, Jill Payne. Jill is a mental health professional, author of "The Pimpathy," and a trailblazer who developed a unique concept combining banner and empathy. She has taught college-level courses, giving countless lectures and even interned in prestigious institutions like the National Institution of Health. Her passion for spreading goodness through the synergy of mind, body, and communication is inspiring. Jill, welcome to the CJ Moneyway Show. We're excited to have you on today.

Thank you so much, CJ. I'm letting you know, you made me feel so good. When people give people compliments, I say this all the time on all the podcasts, when we get compliments, it hits a region of the brain as though you gave me a $100 bill or chocolate, which is my favorite. So it just made me feel so good. And I thank you.

I appreciate you.

Yeah.

And I know what you mean. I interviewed a legendary music icon, and when I was running stuff down to him, he say, I had to sit back and think like, wait a minute, who is this guy talking about? Is that me? And so I do interviews too now. More so than I did last year. So I go on shows and do interviews and, and the guy interviewed me the other day, he was running down me. I'm sitting up there like, is he talking about me? Is that the same person? So I know exactly what you said on that. So Jill, let's kick things off. Tell us a little bit about yourself and your background and what inspired you to pursue a career in mental health.

Well, what inspired me to go into mental health was that I have a brother that has paranoid schizophrenia. And back in the day, we won't tell how old I am, mental illness was hid. And not just that, if you did get help, there really wasn't great help to get. And even now, CJ, there's a stigma and it just is. And that's one of my little sticks. I want to get that stigma to go away because what do we have if we do not have our mental capability? We can't do anything. And so we really need to focus on that. Your head is attached to your body, and so without this, your body's not going to do what you want it to do. So that's what motivated me to go in this. I was a recreational therapist in college because I wanted to learn how to play, and I taught people with mental conditions how to play and have fun. And then I got out in the real world, did a bunch of different jobs. I started out with recreational therapy, you know how it is. I was an ophthalmic technician, I was a gymnastic coach because I did, uh, oh, I could go on and on, it's just so much. You know what I tell my clients? I have been through so much that that makes me good at what I do. And the reason I got into this, CJ, is so no one could have the heartache that I had. I prevent it by helping them see the third side of the coin, just like in my book, so that they can see it faster and they don't have to go through all that heartache. Matter of fact, when people come see me, they have fun, really. Even if they've had trauma, they may cry a little. They end up laughing when they leave.

Yeah, I can tell that you're a lively type of person, so who can't have fun with Jill Payne? Hey, so, and you know, I like the analogy that you— I was just I said that to somebody the other day. We was at work. Yeah, because, you know, I'm the type of person, I forget a lot of things, right? Like, I might leave my keys, or I may forget my, you know, something at work, or, you know, my buds or something.

Oh, and I thought I was the only one that did that.

Hey, hey, Jill, I just told them the other day, I said, and I used to say this all the time, that if my head wasn't connected to my body Right. I would leave my head at home sometimes, and I'd be driving and be like, hey, where my head at? You know what I'm saying? I had to go back and get it. And so, yeah, having your head on your body, it constitutes a whole lot in life. I like that analogy that you—

yeah, and it's true.

Yeah, I will forget it. I will literally forget it. Where my head at?

Like, right, my head at home. And that's really what bempathy is about. Bempathy is really about staying connected with yourself so you can be connected with other people. If you don't connect with yourself, CJ— matter of fact, you going on other podcasts or other TV or whatever media and being interviewed, you get to see the other side of the coin so you can even relate better with me and other people that you have on. So that's doing bempathizing right there. So yeah, so all that we're doing, right, what we're doing right now is empathy. We are bantering, we are chit-chatting. People are forgetting to chit-chat. They are doing a lot of this. And matter of fact, I want you to look, and they don't talk about this. You see how animated I am and see how animated you are? There's less animation in the face now. You'll know, I notice it a lot because of my field. And so people are having what is called more of a blunted affect. This is just something I've noticed. I haven't read it. It's something that I've noticed. And think about it. If I'm like this, how am I going to feel?

Yeah, right.

Exactly. Or blah and unmotivated. And so we need to get and do more of this. And so I even have mirror— I don't call it mirror therapy. I call it mirror work. It's in one of my books. It's in my Meeting People book. And I have people go to the mirror and practice things, even smiling, talking to yourself. When you're standing, how do you look? Do you look approachable? We don't really look at ourselves. So empathy is about looking at yourself because you are the center of your world, right? Yeah, you are. And you can create it. As we were talking about Martin Luther King, we don't want to get political. He created it. I was talking to someone the other day and he thought he was all that. And he thought that he knew— not thought— that he was going to get his point across. And so this is what we need to believe, and therefore it will happen.

Mm. I like that empathy. Yeah, you're teaching me a whole lot right now in just this short time. We haven't even got to it yet. So let me ask you, uh, yes.

Yes.

You've had such a diverse and remarkable career, interning at the International Institute of Health and the Veterans Administration Hospital. Must have been incredible experiences. What were some of the key lessons you took from those early roles?

That everyone is different. Everyone has a different brain, different fingerprints, different languages. And we need to understand that there is no one that's perfect. And so that we can be more understanding with them and also ourselves. So we're less hard on ourselves and less hard on other people. And so that's what I learned because NIH is very diverse. There are people from all over the world that go there and all different ethnicities. So not only ethnicities, culture is different. And then of course you have the VA and those are our vets. And so they're amazing. I love the vets. My mom has, she helped the vets so much. And when it was Vietnam War, she was on national television and President Nixon even gave her an award for collecting and doing so much for the vets. She was world renowned for that. And so I have grown up with appreciating our veterans and our military because where would we be without them? I'm getting patriotic here. It's just, I think we need to be more appreciative people and start— and this is bempathy. Bempathy is a win-win mindset. So, when I came on here, I think you've got a wonderful personality. There's some people that are just very warm and friendly. Even if you weren't, my mindset was I was going to have fun. We were going to have fun, just chitchat and have a good time. If your mindset is that, you have a better chance of having that than having a bad time. If you're, if you're going in the Indianapolis 500, you're not going to go in and say, I'm going there and I'm going to lose. No, you're going to say, I'm going to win that race.

Yeah.

And that's empathy. You go in with a win-win mindset and that really helps with how you're going to say things. If you're going to step back and listen, because this is all about communication.

Yeah. I like that. Win-win mindset. Now, Jill.

Yes.

I'm looking at your screen. And, uh, I see a lot of letters, so before I get to my next question, I gotta— because I want to understand. I think I know what the MA stands for. What does the LPC-S and the LCDC— what does that stand for?

So I have a Master's of Art, and that is in clinical and counseling psychology, and then I also am a licensed professional counselor, and then I went and took extra supervision so that I can supervise people that are like me. They can be under me. And then just for the heck of it, LPCs can help people with chemical issues or addiction issues. I'll tell you a funny story. I went and took the LCDC test. It's a national test, a Licensed Chemical Dependency Counselor, because my husband came home one day— I'm very competitive, he even said so the other day, CJ. So listen, so he was working, he's a therapist too, And he came home and he said, you know what? He said, I want to take that LCDC test and I can't do it even though I have a master's and I'm an LPC. They're going to make me take 2 more courses. And I said, oh my gosh, I was already grandfathered in to take the test. I wasn't going to take it. And I said, well, gosh, I'm going to take this test because my husband can't take it. So that's how come I took it. I wasn't going to take it because I really didn't need it.

So that—

I don't know if that's empathizing. That's just, that's just being competitive. So that was just, yeah, that was a little story to my LCDC.

Yeah, you know what, what is a household without being a little competitive at times?

Exactly.

We do the same thing around here. Like, we may play a video game or something, and my wife, like, we may play virtual golf or something. Oh, fun. And for some reason, she always beats us at that, and I thought I was a better athlete than she was, but I was wrong. Hey, but she has a little competitive in her too. She say me and my son always competitive, but she got a little bit in her too. And so, uh, thank you for explaining that to us though, because I'm looking at these letters and I really wanted to know what they consist of.

I'm also certified in Egala. I, I have all these different things, and that is equine-assisted therapy. So it's equine psychotherapy. And people, even if you— and this is for everybody out there— if you get with a horse and you just stand with that horse, that's going to make you feel better. The horse is a prey and they feel you, and you'll get this good energy. So next time you see a horse, go and pet it. It's going to make you feel better.

So yeah, no, no, I'm not a— I will be scared of a horse, you know, and to pet them, uh, you know, I don't know, I, I maybe I gotta find some empathy somewhere, you know what I'm saying? Make it a win-win situation. I gotta see. So, so Jill, yes, you coined the term empathy, which combines banner and empathy to build better communication and relationships. Can you walk us through what empathy means and how it works besides the win-win situation?

Okay. You mean empathy? So, yes. So, so let me tell you something that's different with anything else that's going on. People think empathy is on the decline. Empathy is cyclical and it's actually on the rise. What's really on the decline is the banter. And so empathy, we need to learn what is empathy so I can empathize with the Democrats and I can hate the Republicans or vice versa. So empathy is something good and positive, it's a start to connect with people. The problem is we need to do the bantering so we can start seeing other people's third side of the coin, another perception. So empathy is your feeling, or you can relate with that person that's in a certain position and you connect with them and you can do it cognitively, emotionally, or both. So if you were feeling sorry for someone, you're just feeling at them, which is you're feeling with them with empathy. Does that make sense? Okay. So I mean, I can feel sorry for you. It doesn't do it. I'm not connecting. And then the banter is very important. Just like when you gave me that beautiful compliment when I came on. When people come in and they start talking, what did we do when we first started talking? First of all, we didn't just go on. I don't know if your people know that. You don't just have people go on. We warm up to each other and you do that with all your guests and you do that because it's bantering and you chit-chat to get a connection, to get a feel how that person— exactly. And that's what people are missing in our society. And that's empathy. I could go on and on. I'm very happy with what I do. It's what I've been doing for 40 years, probably since I popped out of my mom and I just coined it empathy. So it really does work. We need to realize, remember, not everyone's perfect, not everyone's gonna like us, and vice versa. That just is. It's going to help us get along with people that we don't even like because we're going to look at another perception. There are going to be people that we just don't click, and BEMpathy will let us know, hey, this isn't working. Maybe I need what is called an accomplice to have me get along with this person, or maybe we need to shut it off and move move on.

Yeah, yeah, I like that part a lot. Yeah, shut it off, leave it up, because sometimes it's just not gonna go nowhere, you know. Exactly. How friendly or— yeah, how cordial you try to be with somebody, right? I think you said it earlier, the only person that you really can control is yourself and, and how you approach certain situations. I can't make you, uh, feel how I feel. And I think my wife— my fact, we just talked about that the other day. Yeah. And she said, Corwin, you just got to understand that everybody don't think or do the same things that you do. And sometimes you expect people to in return, you know what I'm saying? But realistically, it's just not like that. Everybody is built differently, like we said, from the inside. And so, so I told her, I said, I'm getting over certain things. I'm getting over certain things. I'm getting over certain people.

So, and you know what? Just because I am very positive like you, everything also, I have it in my books. It's called TP and it's not toilet paper. It's timing and position. Well, it might be that too. We might want to wipe some things away. Toilet paper is good for some things.

That's a good one. That's a good one, Jill. I like that one.

They use it in that beer, you know, with the teddy bear commercial.

Yeah. Yeah.

Anyway.

Yeah. So it may not be the right timing., and you may not be in the right position. And so that doesn't mean down the future things may work out. And that's another thing to look at. I don't talk about boundaries. I don't use boundaries. In one of my books, I do talk about boundaries. In my last book, I've switched over there. Of course, we have boundaries. I like to say limits. We all have limits and we have different speed limits. That person may be slower than you. And, and it might not be time for you to go over in his lane or her lane.

Yeah, so I agree with you, and I understand your concept with that too.

Yeah.

And one thing too that I speak about a lot when I get the opportunity is that I try not to harden my heart towards people that I— that may have done me wrong or may have said some things or whatever, because I'm a true believer that a lot of times God pulls you out of certain situations And like you just said, yes, he just put you first. Don't mean that he's not going to bring them to where you are. He just—

that's right—

you out first. But a lot of times we can become discouraged of what people have said about you and what they've done to you, that we can harden our hearts, right, to the point that now where he has elevated you and put you in a position, right, and now it's time to reach back and go get those who have persecuted you, talked about you, downed you, didn't want to see you where you are now. I'm not going back and help them, but because we are, uh, we know who we are, right? No, we're going, uh, sometimes you don't let that thing filter inside of you, right? And when it comes time to pull a brother by the hand, pull a sister by the hand, that you know that God has brought you to the point to bring them along at this time. Like you said, they may not have been ready.

Exactly. We don't know where they are in their life. They may be miserable. We really don't know. And also, that is— I just was saying to a client of mine this morning, she was saying how women have a hard time receiving compliments. And we do. We do. And I said, you know, it's an insult when you don't receive the compliment because that person is giving them their perception of you. And the thing is, the insults are the same. Insults and compliments is that person's perception. It doesn't mean it's real. It's their perception. And so the same— it's— what was that saying when we were little? I'm rubber, you're glue, whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you. Do you remember that?

Yeah.

Okay. And you know what? I tell people to say that in their head. There you go.

Yeah, I may not remember it, uh, verbatim, but I do remember what you said. Wait, uh, that's saying— I may not have said it myself because I think that was more of a girl saying, but—

oh, was it?

Was it?

Was it?

I think it was.

Since I'm not a guy, I don't know.

Especially the way you did it. You like— and it'll stick to you. I don't think Miss— me and Mr. Payne will be doing that.

Well, you could—

you can still say it.

You can say it in your head. There you go.

Hey, so Jill. Yes, DJ. How did your background— you mentioned this earlier— how did your background in recreational therapy and psychology help shape the development of Pimpathy? And was there a specific moment that sparked this idea?

I'm going to tell you what the moment was. It was around 15 to 20 years ago. And it was when technology, the digital technology, was starting to roll and boom. And I noticed a difference in the people in our lives. They were different. They weren't touchy-feely. I'm not saying everybody. I just noticed a difference. There was more of a disconnect. They were doing emails more than they were picking up the phone. They were— then texting came. I even had people were when they talked to me, they were doing that. It was getting so much. And so because of that, I said, whoa, there's a disconnect here. We need to get a balance. And they've already done— and so I research. I've been doing a lot of research. Matter of fact, all my books are research, but this one particularly, this one took me 10 years. I did 10 years of research. I did my own little pilot study with some people and to get people more connected and find out you know how to do that. And so I just started reading about what screen time does to the brain. Forget social media. What screen time does is it changes the chemicals in your brain. It changes the frontal lobe. They're finding out more and more that it even increases cortisol, stress hormones, which gets us fat around the belly, by the way. So yeah, I even— I have someone doing my social media. I still will say I do the nice stuff, like if you text me, I'll text you back. But she'll put all that— no buts, we said on buts. She'll do all that for me because it was getting me down. It was not the way I talk. I talk to people like we're talking or face to face. And so less is more is what I say. And that's what motivated me to finally do this. I even had a little radio show on public radio here in Houston. It was— I did about 6 segments. And it was all about this. I called it Meeting People, It's Not a Game, which you can see was one of my books. And it was basically talking to people, they were calling about what's going on, to be aware of it. Parents, be aware of it. We are modeling behavior. Kids are following us. We need to be that model and show them that people like to be respected and heard, and you can't do that with digital. So, I could go on and on. That's what really motivated me. It was about 15, 20 years ago. And so, BEMpathy, the name, that came probably— I think that was in 2018 when I did that. It was always BEMpathy. I just wanted to think of a name. And so, I was going to do with schmooze. And then, I don't like schmooze. Schmooze is fun. Banter is really what I was looking for because this is— that's— it's humorous chitchat and lighthearted talk. And that's what's missing. What do you think? What do you think about that?

No, no, I totally agree with you. Because say like, when me and my wife, we have date night, whether it's watching TV, you know, we watch some movies, right? Some television shows that we, you know, have an interest in. Yes. And we don't use our phones, you know, like no phones, no phones.

And they're not even in your room. They're not even in your room, right?

Yeah. No. Good. You know what I'm saying? It's just like, you know, because as you said, how much invested are you into this time that we are having together? Whether we are not, you know, we don't even have to be saying nothing. But if I'm on my phone, Facebook, Instagram, trying to see who said what, right? Or whatnot. You know what I'm saying? And we are not investing in each other. So sometimes you have to put, you know, saying certain things to the side on certain things. And you said something earlier made me think about, right, about social media. I do have somebody working on my LinkedIn page or whatnot, and it's funny that you said, because sometimes people respond back to me, but she does all the— oh, she does the response, posting and everything.

Yes.

But no, but sometimes they will message me Yes. Like, oh, CJ, uh, thank you for connecting. I'm glad you, uh, wanted to connect. What was the reason? You know what I'm saying? What made you? And I'll be sitting up there like, I don't know, I don't know you. Uh, like, I don't know what she did that— like, you said something about what is this language? I have no idea. But yeah, but as far as the phones and the distractions, right, I think that it's more and more One of my big pet peeves of jail is people doing this while they driving. It irks me. You on the highway, you know, and you swerving side to side. You thinking that you're in control of what you're doing, but you're not. You swerving side to side and you can tell when, you know, you slowing down. And then when you get off the phone, you speeding up. And see, what people don't understand is, While you're being distracted by doing something else, you're not paying attention to your full surroundings. And so while you may be in the clear of certain things, you don't see this semi-truck that's behind me that's about to rear-end me because you're trying to look on Facebook or Instagram or FaceTime on your phone. This digital era, you know, it's— Yeah.

And this is the issue. They've made it addictive. And so in Australia, I was just in Australia a couple of weeks ago. I was there for about 3 weeks. I went there and I went to New Zealand. The people there were so nice, CJ. There was in the airport, instead of saying delayed, it says relax. So yeah, so I was sitting by this wonderful kid, he was 22, and we were talking about what he was going to do and be with people and all that. And then he said, you know, there was just a law passed in Australia. It'll be— it's passed, but it's not into effect yet. If you're under 16, you're not allowed to be on social media. And so I said that to somebody. Hold on. I said that to somebody and they were like, I don't like the government taking control. And I said, well, I agree with you on that. What's going on is in the DSM-5 is where the psychiatrists and psychologists— it's where we find the definitions of mental illness. Diagnosis is, okay? I believe in the DSM-6, we will have technology, not technology, digital technology in there as a drug. It's a drug. It gives you all the— just like you gave me that compliment, they're getting all this excitability and all these drugs that are exciting us are doing that every time we hear a ping. I don't need to tell you what the drugs are. And it's addictive. And so you will be seeing that, I promise you, and you'll say, "Joel Payne said that." Yeah, right. So it's not all our fault. Oh, it is. I mean, it is very— it's very—

it is. I mean, we, you know, we always talk about— I'm not saying— I'm just saying per se, yeah, oh, how addictive the phones are to kids, you know, video games. Oh yeah. Right. Make no mistake. Yes, I work at a job. I, I was telling my mother the other day, like, I work at a job. I got—

yeah.

And, and we got— although we working, we got a lot of downtime, you know what I'm saying? Like a lot of downtime. And unless something happens, you know, then you have to go out, whatever. But other than that, we just in the room and, you know, we chilling, right? I told my mother, I say I can get all the way to work. If I forget my phone, I say I would get to the gate and call the person that I'm relieving, like, hey, I'm gonna be a little late, I got to turn back around and go get my phone. Hey, so we can say that it's for the kids, but it has become addictive to many of us. Yes, because you got your phone in your hand, you know, like, like you said, ding, you get a notification, like, oh, I gotta look, I gotta look, I gotta look, you know. So So I just can't blame it on the kids anymore because I think adults have, you know, have drawn into this just as much as the kids, whether you play Candy Crush on there, you know, you bored, or some card games or whatever. So I get you on that.

Yeah. So it's habit-forming and addictive. So it's both. And yeah, so we just need to be aware, like you're aware of it. You know not to have your phone out when we have our phone out, CJ. There's been studies, even if it's off, that you are more attracted to that phone than you are your sexy wife. That's, that's just so— that's wonderful that you put the phone away in another room. That's awesome.

I mean, you know, we could be driving in the car. I, I, I, I think I have more willpower because like you say, it's a thought process. It is, you know, saying some other people and I, you know, I can't expect for you to do what I do. But like, if we driving in the car and if I'm on the passenger side, I'm not just going to have my phone out, you know, unless I'm trying to schedule an interview with Jill Payne or, you know what I'm saying, something like that. You know, if it's work related, I'll let me put this in my, in my—

if it was important, like me.

Yeah, if it's important. But if it's just like just sitting around, she driving and I'm, you know what I'm saying, just strolling through, no. I mean, she may want some communication, or even if we just sitting there inside But I'm not being a male chauvinist when I say this, Jill, but I think women have more of a habit of pulling their phone out doing that than men do. I'm just saying.

I will say one thing that women do do, which is really interesting. You need to look at your texts versus a woman's text, because they will text— now I'm not saying all, I have noticed that. So I don't— I haven't looked at studies if women do it more. I think men are on it for different reasons. So a lot of men like to watch YouTube videos or game, where women may be doing the social media more. I don't know.

So yeah, let me know when you do that research. I will give me the results on that.

So I will email you.

Jill, we was talking about mental health and things of that nature. Let's stay on this point.

Okay.

Your practice focuses on the importance of seeking mental health service advice, just like we seek advice for physical health. Why do you think mental health still carries a stigma, and what can we do to change that?

Oh God, you hear me sigh. Most of those people on the streets have mental illness. Most of the people, a large percentage in the jails have mental illness. And I think that it's education. But what— oh, you were asking why. So one, it's our mind. And think of all those movies out there that when people have these minds that don't work right, think of all those scary movies out there that promote us to be scared of people that their mind is not in the right way. Or not in the rational way. So these are some reasons how come. And then it is scary because there are people that have paranoid schizophrenia and they can, you know, they hear voices or see things, they hallucinate, and they are paranoid. So they can do certain things, not likely, they can. I mean, you've heard of— I don't want to talk about it— people pushing people into subways and things like that. And it's just, I think we need to be educated. I do think that there needs to be better programs. I don't have time to get into that because this is something I want to do when I have more time because I think there's 3 levels of mental illness. We have people that have mental illness that are CEOs, congressmen, we have people that have mental illness that can have jobs for 6 months and then they have a breakdown and they go back. And then we have the people that are on the street that a lot of them really have a lot of problems socializing, thinking, and all these things and need to be in some type of program for socialization, PHPs, things like that. This is just— I'm one therapist talking about this. And so I think it's something bigger. And also my husband would tell you, because I get upset about it because I feel for— I I'm empathizing with him, and he'll say there's no money in it to help them. I think there will be if you think about it correctly, because remember, empathy, you want it to be a win-win. It's all perception. You want the other person to perceive— like my husband, he perceives he's king of the castle. He may not be king of the castle. He perceives he is, and he's happy, and so am I. So that's my thought process on that. I do believe that it is getting better. I do believe that the problem that we have in our world is not the mental illness. I believe it's the disconnect. We need to start connecting more, not, not the way we're connecting. Really touch, you know, touching's bad. If a guy touches a woman at work, it's, you know, it's gotten to be where what is good touch, what is not good touch. They've done Studies, if you don't have touch, you die. And if you do an 8-second hug, you will improve your mood. Do that with your wife every day, an 8-second hug. Uh, you know, they used to say like 30 seconds, 8 seconds, that's all it takes. You get all these nice endorphins and you feel better. We're missing physical touch. We're missing me looking at you right with my eyes and getting that excitement You see what I'm saying? Because even now I'm looking at you and then the people are seeing me and I really need to look there, which isn't at you, so that they can see me. I prefer to look at you because I'm with you. Yeah. You see what I'm saying? So all these things are missing and empathy, which is what I do teach, is helping people get more connected. I— example, I've had people come in that were depressed. It had nothing to do with mental illness. It had to do with there was a disconnect. Please, everyone out there, take time. If there's a stranger, say hi, how you doing? Do some small talk with the stranger and walk and say bye. People don't even like walking with me, CJ, because I'll be in line and I'll say, hey, how'd you like those tomatoes? I thought they were a little soft. And then we'll have a conversation. I never see them again. We have some laughs. And you know what? That's what's missing. We need to do more of that. And right, practice makes perfect.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I totally agree. You know, like I always say, you know, you don't have to know somebody, hold a full-fledged conversation just to speak, or you know what I'm saying, whatever. And we're missing that element in life too, where, you know, we don't want to speak to each other, or you may not want to hold the door. For somebody, you know what I'm saying? Like, you see me walking through the door and you don't want to hold the door open for me or say thank you, or you know what I'm saying? It's just the small thing. And you was talking about the 8-second rule, it started making me think because my youngest boy is 14. And so we have a thing where I see him, we clap hands or whatever, and then I give him a hug, you know what I'm saying? Give him a hug or try to kiss him on the forehead or something. And it really dawned on me one time how much he enjoys it or looks forward to that. Yes, he was at a basketball game. He had a basketball game. You know, sometimes, especially teenagers, you know, they don't, they don't want all that stuff. You may do that at home, but I don't want all that. Yeah, you know, after his game, we dapped it up and everything. Fucked it up and he came in for the hug, you know what I'm saying? Like, he was, he was looking for that. And, and, you know, I think that's a lot, especially with me and their sons. And, you know, like, I know we're doing with our daughters, but man, with their son, I think younger, uh, young men are looking for that love from their father in that way. Like when I was coming up, I knew that my father loved me, but I didn't get it in that type of capacity. You know what I'm saying? Like it was a different exterior. And so I think, you know, like you say with the hugs and things. Oh yeah. It just builds something more where I feel protected and I feel loved, you know? So yeah, I thank you for that, man. You throwing some nuggets out here, Dr. Jill. I appreciate it. So, Uh, Jill, so as someone who has taught behavior modification at the college level—

yes—

what are some practical behavior strategies people can adopt to improve their mental well-being?

Okay, so there's different things, and they do it at Walmart all the time. Walmart has like that red light thing and everybody goes to it. So it's Every time someone does something, like let's say your child, I don't know, acts out and you spank them, that's a reward. Might be a negative reward, you know, it's a punishment. It's still a reward. So we need to watch how we give attention to people. And so that's one thing I think is a big thing because I'll have a lot of people where their kids are acting out, and I tell them, "If your child's acting out, he may not be—" He or she or them may not be getting enough attention and need to get more attention or feel better about themselves, maybe get them to do something, some type of activity and be a success at it, whether it's building blocks or what. That's just an example. So, that's a big thing that I think is affecting us. In our society today because we are getting rewarded for doing things that may not be the best thing for us. For instance, I'm getting rewarded every time I get a like, and that's promoting me from instead of talking to you, talking to my phone. There's no one on my phone. I'm just talking to my phone. And so, I think that's the biggest thing right there is to just realize where are you getting your rewards and is that— the direction you want to go in? Is that fulfilling? And I think a lot of people are just automatically on autopilot. They're going in this direction and then they start feeling empty because they're not really going in the direction they want. That gives me more business. So on a lighter note, just to make fun, it gives me more business. So yeah.

Yeah. You know, you said something before we got on, you said, well, CJ, I would probably like to be on that podcast. I didn't even tell you the name of it, but some of the things I like you said, uh, it's called Planting Seeds with CJ. And so I want to be a seed planter. That's what I always wanted to do, plant seeds. Can't change people's, uh, perspective, but I want to throw things out there and put things out there in the atmosphere as what you— and I think that we all in our own rights, you as a therapist, you as a book writer, and things of that nature. We all plant seeds. We all do. Rappers, music, musicians. And I just think that is what type of seeds are we planting, you know what I'm saying? It's— I love that issue. And so you just said something, and it's something that I talk about in one of my episodes, is that we're rewarding people, children most likely, most definitely, we're rewarding them for times that they don't need to be rewarded. And so if you get— so if Lil Johnny getting 3 Fs in school, Lil Johnny don't deserve 3 pair of Jordans for Christmas. But because we're wired like that nowadays in society, well, my kid need everything, they can have it. So what are we really teaching them though, you know what I'm saying? Like, so you can do nothing to get whatever you want. So I got a segment called Playground to Purpose because a lot of times I feel as though we're on the— the adults are the ones that's on the merry-go-round, right? He is sitting back watching us, you know what I'm saying?

They are watching us.

Yeah, they watching us. And then sometimes they play us, they spinning us around on the merry-go-round. Yeah, we're living in a society now where a lot of people just feel entitled to certain things in life and don't have to do nothing for it. Like me, you, your husband, my wife, and many others. We had to work and go out there and do things, you know what I'm saying, to prove our value. But nowadays it's just, you know, just the mindset, or, you know, empathy. We go to empathy. Yes, yes. A win-win. In order to win, sometimes you gotta put in, you gotta put in.

So the issue here, I do my empathy all the time, so I'm looking at all the different sides. I'm hearing everything that you're saying and agreeing with it. And what's happening is the kids and younger generation are seeing all this wonderfulness and everybody is an influencer and this appears so easy when they don't realize that Taylor Swift had Toby Keith help her. They don't realize that she probably worked and did, you know, started when she was little. Beyoncé, I think she was 3 years old passing out DVDs of her singing. I love to look at famous people and look at their bios. Like, I was looking at Flip Wilson the other night. I don't know if you— do you remember Flip Wilson?

We ain't gonna tell our age, but I know Flip Wilson.

So I was— it was on my— it was on my TV, so I was watching him and I thought, you know, I always loved him with Geraldine. He was so brilliant. And so I went and looked him up and all his hardships, like he died at 62 and He wasn't appreciated. All these things people need to— when they see these famous people, they really need to look at their bios, just like you're doing with me and talking about all these different people you have on. And so then I think our kids and the younger generation would see what they went through. He had— his parents gave him up to an orphanage. His mom left. His dad couldn't take— there were 10 kids. And so he gave them to— they were— he was raised in foster homes. They just saw Luke Wilson. Yeah, right.

Interesting, huh? Yeah, it is interesting.

Right. And that's what's missing. You see, there's a disconnect. People see, like, people will look at CJ. Gosh, CJ's got a wonderful podcast. He's wonderful. He's got this magnetic personality. And I can do that. I want to do that right now. They don't know how old you are. They don't know what you've been through. They don't know that it takes time. Love takes time. Life, everything takes time. You don't pop out of your mom and run.

No, you don't. No, it's baby steps. You eat baby food. Yeah, some people still, you know, not to get explicit, some people, you know, you drink milk from the mommy, you know, or whatnot. Mommy take it out at the kitchen table or at the dinner table. Yeah, at the restaurant. And I'm sorry to say this, you know, I'm more conservative on the CJ Moneyway Show than I am on Planting Seeds with CJ. But, uh, yeah, some of these little young, especially young men, because that's who I'm aiming at right now, uh, young men. But some of these young men still drinking the baby milk from their mommies, right? Yeah, you know, we need— and, and a lot of that, that's on us, Jill. A lot of that's on us. But we'll talk about that, you know what I'm saying, on the next time we get together on the other podcast.

Okay. We get deeper. Yes. That'll be awesome.

Because I want you to bring the mental aspect, you know what I'm saying, into some of these situations on why, you know, we act the way that we act or why do we do some of the things that we do. Right. Why we can't get off the breast milk, you know what I'm saying? Even as adults. Right. Yes. You know, being grown but still having a childish mindset. You know, like, like, I want to get deeper into that. So we'll do that on the next one. So before we wrap up, yes, before we wrap up, yes, first I think, you know, throughout this whole process we've been talking about empathy, you know what I'm saying? You've been exploring the whole thing about your book. Where can we find the book? And can you give us your social media links? And, you know, if you have any programs or anything out there that we can get in contact with you with?

Okay, well, I am on some more podcasts starting tomorrow, but you don't want me to name all that, so I'll be on some other podcasts. So it's @jillrobinpain, and they can find me all over the place for that on the platforms. I'm on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn. I really do like LinkedIn. I promote LinkedIn to my clients because it really does help you get jobs and it helps you make friends. It's still, I think, a very good quality of finding real people. You agree with me on that?

Yeah. Yeah, I do. Okay.

It's more professional. It is more professional. I highly recommend LinkedIn. My books are on Amazon. This one is on audio. And then I'm thinking of doing this one on audio, but the one that is the newest one that we really talk about is The Third Side of the Coin. Really, it's a, it's a small book, 80 pages. What I love about my book, is it's got these cartoon people. I don't know if— can you see them?

I can see it. Yeah, I can see it.

There you go. Okay. And that's Beacon, Brighton, and Beau. And I came up with them. That's, that's another story because I do believe that there are 3 types of personality in the world. There's a leader, a follower, and a compromiser. And if you're an instigator, you're a leader, just not a positive one. And so even by knowing what you are, helps you to talk to the other person. And sometimes we need to follow instead of being the leader. We might be like right now, you're doing a podcast. I haven't done a podcast, so you are leading me even though I'm used to being a leader. You're my leader right here. So we take different roles and act just like you go on other podcasts. You take a different role. You're not the— oh, there you go.

Yeah. So I really appreciate you. So Jill, I really appreciate you, you know, time, it just flew by. I really appreciate you coming on and giving us all these nuggets and giving us a lot of insight on what you do. Thank you for being open with everything. Before we go, I do have to add, I just saw something. I know you was a Reiki master. Oh yes. But we won't get, you know, things of that nature. But I just saw something I gotta ask you. Yes. You've been actively involved in many organizations, including the Houston Livestock Show and Rodeo.

Oh right. Yes.

How has your community involvement shaped your perspective on mental health and personal wellness dealing with these type of events?

Well, one reason I did that was because it helps children get a scholarship, and that the money that we go— we're volunteers. Matter of fact, I could tell you stories on that because people don't know you're volunteers. And they— anyway, so as far as mental health and all those different organizations I'm just telling you, there are people out there that have issues and you don't know that they have issues. And so it gets you to be able to work with all different types of people. So when you're with big organizations, I recommend people join organizations so you learn how to be with people that may be difficult or may be different. Actually, I was going to tell you, my dad, he used to take me to see his clients after surgery. He was an ophthalmologist. And so I even took my son to some programs that I would do, and they were mentally ill. And he's a doctor now, family practitioner, and he loves all types of people. Matter of fact, he really wants to help foster kids because he saw me and I modeled behavior, how I work with all different types of people and how it can be fun. Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah. So we need to show that it's fun being with all these different types of people. Got to look at the positive. Everybody has a gift. Everybody. You spoke of God. I just say higher power because people, I believe, get offended. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and whatever people believe in. Exactly. Whatever works for you. And so I do believe everyone has a gift and we just need to find it. And we ourselves need to look and see what the gift is in other people too.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And quit burying our gifts. And sometimes we bury them. You know, right? Oh, that's right. Yeah. And then looking for the gift that we went forth with and we ain't buried it, and looking for things in other places. Like, why is my life going in this direction? Why? Exactly. Because you buried the thing that was going to take you or catapult you to the next level. You buried it and refused to go dig it back up. And so that's why you keep on going around and around in circle. What's the word? I know you're in mental health. It say insanity to keep doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a change.

Yeah. I think Einstein said that, right?

Oh man. That was way back then, huh? Way back then, yeah. So Jill, man, it's been such an enlightening conversation. Yes, it's been fun. Thanks for sharing your story, your insights, and passion with us. I'm sure our listeners have gained a lot of valuable takeaways about mental health and empathy can enhance on how empathy can enhance our life. Thank you for sharing your sites with us and everything. And if anybody want to know about Jill Robin Payne, all her links would be in my show notes so you guys can check her out, all her new books and everything that she has going on right now. Jill, you got it going on. Don't ask me to explain all these other letters again because I, uh, because I can't. And again, I thank you, Jill, for joining us today. And to our listeners, thank you for tuning in to the CJ Moneyway Show in association with Believe Network. Make sure to grab a copy of Jill's book, Empathy, and follow her on more mental health insights. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review, subscribe, and share it with someone who who might need to hear this. Until next time, stay positive, stay motivated, and as always, keep spreading the goodness. This is your boy CJ Moneyway signing off. We outta here. Peace.

Thank you for listening to the CJ Moneyway Show. Don't forget to share this episode with your friends, leave a comment, and drop a review. Be sure to tune in every Tuesday and Friday for more inspiring journeys. Who knows, your story might be next.

Mm-hmm.