From Medicine to Murder Mysteries: Dr. John Bukowski on Science, Suspense & Reinventing Your Passion

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What's up, my good people? Welcome to the CJ Moneyway Show. I'm your host, CJ Moneyway, and today we're diving into a fantastic fascinating journey, one that bridges science, medicine, and thriller fiction. I guess today Dr. John Bukowski started as a veterinarian and public health researcher but is now an accomplished thriller novice with titles like Project Suicide and his latest release, Checkout Time. We'll discuss his transition from medicine to storytelling, how he brings realism to his thrillers, and what drives his passion to write. Let's get it on. Hey, so welcome to the show, John. How you doing today, man?

Thanks, CJ. I'm doing good. Thanks for having me on the show.

All right, thank you for taking time out your busy schedule, man, to come join the CJ Moneyway Show. So, John, your journey is unique, from being a veterinarian in medicine and health research to writing high-stakes thrillers. Tell us a little bit about your background and what first got you interested in science and medicine.

Oh, okay. I like to say I'm the most overeducated fiction writer in the country. I have a veterinary degree, as you say, practiced in Michigan for several years, went back to school, got a master's and a PhD in public health, and practiced public health epidemiology for about 20 years. But back in undergrad, Even back in high school and grade school, I had three passions: English reading and writing. Always been an avid fiction reader, loved reading, always loved my English classes. I minored in English in undergrad, majored in science, minored in English. History— big history buff, especially military history. Been studying that for 50-some years. And third was science. When I decided to focus on science I had to let some of those other things go on the back burner. So I basically just circled back to my love of reading and writing. And that happened kind of when I was doing my public health research. I noticed that I was doing less and less research and more and more writing because whenever my bosses, whether it be in government or industry, needed something important written, they always seemed to turn to me. Because they knew I wrote well and I enjoyed it. So I left industry and this is around 2004 and started doing contract medical writing, writing journal articles for companies about their products. I wrote some advertorials, did a lot of consumer writing on websites and consumer handbooks. I did some radio scripts for a veterinary school down in Florida. And what's more natural than to go from that to fiction writing? Because every writer, no matter what you do, whether it's copywriting for advertising or technical writing, you want to write the great American novel. You know, you want to write fiction. So I started doing that around 2008, 2009. My first novel is still on my computer, probably never going to go anywhere, but it got me hooked. So I've been writing short stories. I've got 20 published. And novels since then, and my first one was published— yay!— in 2022. That was Project Suicide. I'll show you that right here if I can get that in the picture. That's Project Suicide. And the second one came out the next year with same publisher, Checkout Time. And I've got two scheduled for this year, a sequel to Project Suicide called Bad Pennies and also a dark thriller called The Peeper about a serial killer who stalks social media.

So, so you're a busy man, John. You try to have as many books published as you got on your bookshelf back there. I see you. Hey, so John, you know, that's incredible, man. That's incredible. So John, Dr. John, I'm gonna call you Dr. J. I'm gonna put some respect on your neck. Dr. J, so what was the moment or turning point that made you say, "I wanna write fiction"?

Well, it was kind of a negative at the time, but it turned out to be a positive. And that was, I was doing my medical writing, had a pretty good contract business going, working with my wife. She did the editing, I did the writing. And the Great Recession hit around 2008. 2008, yep., and people weren't hiring contractors. No one was doing much of anything. They're just tucking in, not spending money. And so I had a lot of time on my hands, and I always— like I said, I always wanted to write some fiction. And I thought, okay, I've got time, I've got the gift of time. So I started writing, and it took me about 6-8 months, and I wrote my first novel, like I said. And that's still on my computer. Not going anywhere. But it did get me hooked. So I started writing, you know, started a couple other novels. I even, when business picked up, I wrote some short stories. I got my first short story published 2018, I think. Yeah, 2018, 2017, something like that. And I went from there. It's one of those things like the acting bug, you know, when it bites, you got to keep doing it.

Yeah.

Yeah. So, John, With your storytelling and your writing, you bring a deep scientific and medical background to your books. How does that influence your writing, and how do you balance medical accuracy with storytelling?

Well, my books aren't all that technical. Project Suicide was what you would call a techno thriller, kind of like Michael Crichton or one or two— Robin Cook, who wrote medical thrillers, both physicians. But the technical part is kind of the hook. Alfred Hitchcock used to talk about a thing called the MacGuffin, and the MacGuffin is something in a story which really isn't that important to the audience, but it drives the characters. You know, whether they're searching for microfilm or industrial diamonds, it doesn't really matter. And so the technical material is kind of my MacGuffin. It gets the reader hooked and says, this guy knows what he's talking about. You know, it's like a good con man. I liken fiction writing to a con artist. They don't start off saying, I'm going to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge. Yeah, they start off getting you fascinated with them and what they know, and then they feed you the lies. And just like a con artist, the fiction writer is telling lies. You're making up stories. Yeah, but you want them to be realistic lives. So you add just a touch of that technical material made in a way that people can understand. And I had a lot of practice doing that when I was doing my consumer writing. And they go, wow, this guy's showing me behind the scenes. He's showing me what it's really like. And then when you feed them some BS, they buy it. They suspend their disbelief. And I think that's what all fiction writers do to a certain extent. You do it maybe a little bit more with like a techno thriller or something like that.

Yeah, you're right about one thing, being a writer myself. Fictional writing, yes, you add in what you want to, but you just make your own story and just go with it.

You make some characters and I teach a course in using research in fiction writing, and one of the sections of it is never forget you're writing fiction. Never forget you're telling a spy, you're making stuff up.

Yeah.

So it's nice to have the research behind you. It makes your knowing— uh, they say write what you know, and when you write what you know, it has much more force. It's truer sounding to the reader. Yeah, but You can also make stuff up, and that's the whole point, really. You're making stuff up. Yeah. So never forget you're writing fiction. You're telling a story. You're making up a lie, right?

It's my story. I tell it how I want to, right? Hey, so you don't know if it's a lie or not. I definitely know it's a lie because I'm writing it. Hey, so, so Dr. J, with that being said, do you ever feel a responsibility to educate readers through your fiction Or is it just for purely entertainment?

Primarily for entertainment, but if you've ever read any Robin Cook or Michael Crichton or several other authors, Joseph Wambaugh or somebody like that, that you feel like you've been educated a little bit about science, medicine, genetics. You know, I'm thinking of Jurassic Park, behind the scenes with police, a police procedural written by somebody like Wambaugh who's an ex-cop. So yeah, you educate a little bit. I mean, you can't forget that the story is not about the education. It's about the characters, the struggles they're going, the obstacles they overcome, what they want, how they're going to get it. That's what satisfies people. So if you do too much of the education, it sounds like a technical manual. And with the exception of people like my brother-in-law No one likes to read technical manuals. So it's education, sure. And if you can pass on a little education or people say, wow, I feel like I really understood that, that's great. But it's primarily for entertainment.

Okay, I got you. I got you. So, Dr. J, with that being said, let's talk about your book, Check Out Time. Can you give us a quick summary of the book and what inspired it?

Yeah, Checkout Time is the story of an arsonist bomber known mysteriously by his pseudonym of Conrad Hilton, and he's looking to extort money from hotel chains. Pay me or I'll bomb your hotels. He's pursued by a beautiful FBI agent and a handsome government researcher modeled after myself, and until Conrad turns the tables and the hunters become the hunted. Mm. This was inspired actually years before I started doing fiction writing, working in industry. I was at a business meeting in a hotel room on the top floor. I think it was like the 4th floor. And I looked at the ceiling and there was a trapdoor. You know, one of those little things that's got a little button with a little, maybe a little key thing and you pop it open and you, it's obviously get access to the suspended ceiling. And I thought, you could hide something up there. What would you hide and why? That's big with writers. What if— what if this happened? What if that happened? Well, I was thinking, well, someone could put microfilm up there or data disks, and then you'd have like a spy thriller. Or you could put mob money up there and maybe then you'd have a crime thriller. I immediately went to a bomb. And one of the reasons for that is I'm a bit of a pyromaniac. Ever since I was a kid, I like anything that explodes or burns. It's— a lot of men are like that. So I said, bomb? Why would you put a bomb up there? And the first thing that came to mind is there was a great movie not a lot of people have seen from the 1970s called Rollercoaster, where there was a guy looking to extort money from amusement parks. 'Pay me or I'll bomb your roller coaster and you'll be killing people and that'll be bad for business and people die,' whatever. And so I said, 'Perfect.' This guy could extort hotel chains. And I'm thinking, 'Well, can you sneak a bomb into a hotel room?' Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, it's not like there's TSA checking you down. You could have a backpack nuke on when you go into the hotel and all they'll ask you is how many card keys you want. You know, there's no detectors or anything. So I said, perfect. And that got me started on Checkout Time.

So, John, with Checkout Time, a thriller, and I like the concept, beat the bummer. Thrillers often have strong characters that drive the story. Who's the protagonist in Checkout Time and what makes them compelling?

There's really two protagonists. The main one is a government researcher named Thomas Tomasinski. So naturally his nickname becomes Tom-Tom. He doesn't like it, but of course he tells people he doesn't like that, which means he gets it more and more.

They keep doing it. Yeah, right.

And he's in the hotel where the first bombing takes place, and on the same floor is a beautiful government researcher named Sally Butterworth. Now of course she's called Sally Pancakes, and They meet up in the bar, she blows him off, but then they meet up for a second time when the bomb goes off on their floor. And so they both become involved in this investigation. She's the FBI, he's got technical knowledge, and he's working in an area of occupational fires. So it's a perfect mix, and they become embroiled in the hunt for Conrad Hilton, who's a bit of a chameleon. He's really good with disguises and voices and things like that. And so it becomes more difficult to catch him because he can always blend in somehow.

So, John, with Sally Pancakes and Tom Tom, how else do you craft suspense and keep readers on the edge of their seats?

Well, it's important that— I did some acting in community theater years ago. And took some acting classes. And I remember the teacher saying, one of the important things is all of your— the things that motivate you, all of your actions should be true, but they should never be boring. Life is basically boring. We, we as fiction writers distill out the interesting parts and even blow them up, make them even more grandiose. Than they would be otherwise. So you have to remember that drama is conflict. So especially in a thriller, there's got to be constant obstacles. In Checkout Time, these kind of escalate with bombings and things like that that the characters have to overcome to get what they want, to catch the killer, to do whatever. So you've got to think of it that way. It's like a roller coaster. A thriller's got to be thrilling. You know, every chapter has to have either some big action taking place or the suspense of building to a big action. Alfred Hitchcock used to say, you know, I could put a bomb under somebody's seat in a movie, and if I blow it up, there's a little, ah, and that's it. But if I never blow it up and just make you keep thinking it's going to tick down and blow up, that gets you going. So it's a lot of that. You have moments of climactic action, but a lot of things building to that. That's where the suspense comes in.

So, Dr. J, let me ask you, man. So writing thrillers, I know it has to be an intense process. Can you walk us through your writing routine? Like, are you an outliner, or do you discover the story as you go?

You bring that up. There's two schools, really. The outliner, the plotter, and they usually plot it all out beforehand. You know, they'll have pages of this happens and that happens and this happens or whatever, and they fill in the blanks. That's one way to do it. I like to do it— I'm kind of driven to do it by seat of your pants. You start off with an idea and maybe an opening thought, how this could, you know, how this could start, and then you discover the story as you're going along. And I think that works very well for thrillers and probably horror writing and stuff. Stephen King does that. Elmore Leonard did that. Because you're surprising yourself on what's going to happen next, you're going to surprise the reader. Thrillers with the constant suspense and stuff, seat of your pants works well. If I was writing romances or mysteries classic mysteries that are formula, well, then plotting would probably make a whole lot more sense. You know, you have to know where you drop in your characters, where you drop in your red herrings, your clues, things like that. So, but neither is wrong. It's whatever works for you. And I'm a seat-of-your-pants writer, so that's what works for me. I usually write about an hour and a half, 2 hours in the morning. I don't know many writers who can really concentrate and be creative for more than 2, 3 hours at a time, you know, write 500, 600, 1,000 words and kind of let your mind go clear, do something marketing or something in the afternoon. But yeah, people sometimes think that writers, oh, they go away to a cabin for a month or 3 weeks and they write a 70,000-word thriller or 90,000-word thriller. It doesn't really work that way. Stephen King, who is one of my influences, who is probably the most prolific writer possibly there's ever been, uh, he writes 2,000 words a day, which is a lot, but it's 10 pages, 8 pages, you know. And but he does it every day.

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Plus that Stephen King and all his books turned into number one blockbusters, you know, movies.

So yeah, he's really prolific and he may be slowing down a little bit, but he's still very creative.

Yeah, very creative. So let me ask you, like you say, people go to the cabins and think that's what Pete— that's the misconception that you say. So every writer faces obstacles. What's been the biggest challenge in transitioning from medical writing to fictional writing?

I think for me, the biggest transition is learning that you don't have to cut to the— you can't cut to the chase right away. In medical writing, technical writing, the main thing's being clear, and the second thing is Getting to the point. Well, in fiction writing, you know, if you got to the point right away, you got a 10-page book. You have to build characters. You have to build suspense. We talked about that. You have to throw obstacles in the way. You have to resolve plot lines, have the character arc. You know, what are they learning? How are they progressing or changing? All that takes time and buildup. And you can't rush and try to do it all, like I said, in a few weeks, like people sometimes think you do. It takes time, it takes thinking. So in that respect, it's still important to be clear. Your writing should be clear, people should understand it, but you have to build it up. You have to— I'm not going to say pad because you don't want your writing to be like padded, but you have to populate You're writing landscape with the interesting characters and obstacles in their way, things like that. It's a much more grand process than it is for medical writing, where you're just trying to get the facts out there. Boom, boom, boom, boom. Here's the conclusion.

So, uh, Doc, there's a lot of people who dream of writing a book but don't know where to start. What advice would you give to aspiring authors, especially those transitioning from another career?

The first thing is two things you have to do if anybody wants to be a writer. If you don't do these things, you can't be a fiction writer for sure. Read a lot and write a lot. Most of your— I mean, it's good to take writing courses and stuff, and people get MFAs and all that, that's fine. But the main way you learn how to write is from reading good writing. Like I said, I've been reading since probably I was about 6 or 7 years old. And read a lot of books, a lot of fiction books, went through phases of, you know, Jules Verne and Tolkien and all that stuff. But you gotta read to know how to write, both from the grammar and just how fiction is put together, how stories are told. And you've got to write. You can't say, I want to write, and then never write. Sometimes it's forcing yourself, you know, I'm going to write 500 words today, even if they're crappy. I'll go back and fix them later. And you got to treat it as a hobby because you have to do it because you love it. There's not much money in this business for most people.

Yeah.

And but you have to treat it like a business. You got to do it every day. I know a writer who says there's no such thing as writer's block because there's no such thing as plumber's block. A plumber's got to get to work even if he doesn't feel like it. And it's true with writing as well. You got to kind of force yourself to do it sometimes.

So, John, as we— Mr. Corwin, I keep calling you John. I want to put some respect on your name. So, Dr. J, as we get ready—

That's fine.

I'll do the best with you. The wine is down, man. Refresh our memories on some of the projects that you got coming up as far as the novels that you got sequenced to.

I'll talk about the first book I wrote, which was— or first book I published, Project Suicide. And Project Suicide is the story of how a cure for Alzheimer's is perverted into an assassination drug. Now high-profile politicians are killing themselves, and only a drunken genius can save the country. That's Project Suicide. And I have a sequel to that coming up, which is called Bad Pennies. Somebody from Project Suicide comes back into the scene and makes trouble. So just like a bad penny, it shows up. Project Suicide and Bad Pennies are two books. Bad Pennies should be out in the next 2 to 3 months. And then I have a dark thriller called The Peeper about someone who stalks social media finding his victims. And his trophy that he takes is he steals their eyelids. He cuts off the eyelids. And that's why they call him the peeper. And that should be coming out end of May. That's when it's scheduled anyway.

That's a little extreme now, Doc. We're cutting off their eyebrows.

Well, people on social media, you know, Hannibal Lecter was created by a man who was actually a shy writer. He's not a serial killer, but you know, he's, uh, well, that's what I get back to Stephen King again. He talks about in his book The Dark Half, is that we're all people plural. We are human beings. We have the side that we show everybody else, and then we have the dark half. Yeah, the side where your dreams and your horrors and your lustful aspects and all those other things hide. And the fiction writer can bring those out, and in fact, he has to bring those out. Otherwise, the writing is mimic. It's forced. So you got to have those characters. I've got serial killers, I've got mad bombers. If it's in your imagination, it can be on the page.

Yeah, like you say, that's dark. I want to check out that Peepers, dog. I want to check the Peepers out.

I'm hoping to have a book of short stories, an anthology. Like I said, I've got 20 short stories that have been published in various anthologies and magazines, and I'm putting those together. In an anthology of my own and hope to have that out sometime this year.

Oh, that's cool, Doc. Wish you a lot of luck, great success, man. What you doing sound like you're a very, very busy man. So, Doc, before we wrap up, let's have a few fun rapid-fire questions for you. Okay. If Checkout Time was made into a movie, who would you cast as the lead?

Um, I can think of a couple. Somebody like Brad Pitt, although he may be getting a little older. Edward Norton. Those are two possibilities.

No, good choice. Good choices.

And for the female lead in that, I mean, I'd immediately think of somebody like Scarlett Johansson.

Great choice.

Yeah, so that's for that one.

Yeah, that's a great choice. So we've talked about Stephen King. You say that's basically through his writing that was your mentor. What's a book out of all his books that had a major influence on you as a writer?

Actually, I have 3 influences as writers. Stephen King is one. I think he's the master of characters. He creates characters that people love very— but then he does stuff to them, so he really gets people involved. The master of dialogue is Elmore Leonard, and I've read most of his books. He passed away 5, 6 years ago. And the third one is Ernest Hemingway, kind of the great American writer. But this King book that probably most influenced me was the first one I read, The Shining.

Shining.

And that was a book that, you know, it was in the fall, kind of Halloween time when I was reading it. And I could go out— I was a student at the time— go out to move my car off the street. And, you know, you're looking over your shoulder because, you know, nothing's gonna happen. But he's instilled that in you. Yeah, that's a real gift to be able to do that.

Yeah, and it was a great movie as well. Yeah. What's the best writing advice you ever received?

Well, that was read a lot, write a lot, you know. That was one. And another friend of mine who's a writer, John Gilstrap, he talks about There are no rules. Now, people can talk about where a thriller has to have a certain structure, and there's some truth to that. We talked about mysteries and romance having certain formulas that you have to use, but by and large, there are no rules. However you want to write, if it works for you and people want to read it, it's fine. You know, you don't need A, like some people, you have to have an outline, you have to do— well, if it works for you, it's fine, but you don't have to do that. So that was another good piece of advice, is that there's no rules. It's however you want to do it. Don't feel bad, don't beat yourself up because you do it different than they say you should.

Yeah. So John, dead or alive, who would be the author that you would most want to have dinner with?

That would be probably Ernest Hemingway. He was bigger than life in a lot of respects. Heavy drinker, quite the partier, quite hold court, love to talk to people and stuff. He was an interesting guy, flawed guy, but interesting, and probably would be Ernest Hemingway.

So I know that The Shining was the book that got everything going, had you looking over your shoulders as you was outside reading it. Oh yeah. What's your favorite thriller movie of all time?

Oh, that's tough. I got a lot of them. I mean, in their different genres. I mentioned Rollercoaster as a fun kind of crime thriller from the '70s. Heat and Manhunter with Michael Mann are two great crime thrillers in that genre. There's a great old thriller, psychological thriller from the '60s called Mirage with Gregory Peck. Three Days of the Condor with Robert Redford is a great spy political thriller. Another great kind of political thriller is Day of the Jackal. That's from the '70s, and they remade that.

They did, with, uh, I can't think of his name right now. I remember the Jackal. Oh, Bruce Willis, wasn't it?

Bruce Willis, yeah. He played—

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But those are all great. I love thrillers. I mean, I've watched a lot of thrillers. And those are kind of ones that are on my list. I watch them every year.

Okay.

A couple other ones, like I like the Alfred Hitchcock political thriller Topaz, you know, but there's a lot of great thrillers out there.

So Doc, where can we find your book? Where can we find you on social media?

Books, Amazon. You can also find links on my website thrillerjohnb.net. And go to Amazon. The easiest way to get to them is the two that are currently out, Checkout Time and Project Suicide. Just go checkouttimenovel.com, projectsuicidenovel.com, take you right to Amazon. Also, you can ask your library to get the books. They're available. You can order them through Barnes Noble or whatever, uh, order them from a local bookstore if you like to go to brick-and-mortar bookstores. So any place Ingram distributes, you can find them. Should be the same with my two coming out this spring. And one thing I want to say is I hope people look at the books, you know, like them and read them. And if you do, leave a review on Amazon. And it helps a lot because it helps people decide whether they want to read the book. They see the number of stars and the reviews, and it also helps with the way Amazon markets it, places it in the queue. So if you like it, nicest thing you can do to an author if you like their stuff is to leave a review.

Yeah, and the same thing as a podcast. If you like this episode, please go to Apple and leave a review. It goes a long way. And he's definitely right about that. He's definitely right about that. Wow, what an incredible conversation with Dr. J. From his journey in veterinary medicine and health research to crafting intense thriller stories like "Checkout Time"—

Project Suicide.

—and "Project Suicide: I Like Saturday Pancakes," John's story is a testament to following your passion and embracing new chapters in life. If you're a fan of suspenseful, fast-paced storytelling, make sure to check out "Checkout Time" and "Project Suicide." You can find John's books on Amazon, his website, or wherever you get your thrillers. And don't forget to follow him on social media to stay updated on his upcoming sequels to both Project Suicide and Checkout Time. If you enjoyed today's episode, do me a favor, subscribe to the CJ Moneyway Show as we just spoke about, leave a review, and share this episode with someone who loves a good thriller or is thinking about making a big career pivot. That's it for today. Keep it pushing, keep planting seeds, and as always, stay motivated. I'll catch you on the next episode of the CJ Moneyway Show. Hey, this your boy CJ Moneyway and my man Dr. J. We out of here. Peace.

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