Katie Turner on F*ck Toxic Spirituality: Healing with Integrity & Self-Trust

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Welcome to the CJ Moneyway Show podcast. The podcast show where we unlock potential one dream at a time. Today we have another guest whose journey is truly worth hearing. Sit back, relax, and enjoy the Money Way experience. What's up, my good people? Welcome to the CJ Money Way Show in association with Believe Network, the podcast that highlights inspiring stories to transformation, resilience, and unconventional paths to purpose. I'm your host, CJ Moneyway, and today's episode is going to be a deep dive into spirituality, institution, and healing. Our guest today is Katie Turner, a registered psychologist with a private practice in Alberta, Canada, and the author of the thought-provoking book, F Toxic Spirituality: Avoiding Red Flags and Navigating the Spiritual Path with Integrity. Katie blends traditional psychology with a spiritual approach to help others connect with their gifts while staying grounded. Katie, welcome to the CJ Moneyway Show. It's good to have you today.

Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Uh, appreciate you taking the time out today and coming on the show. So Katie, tell us a little bit about yourself and about your background.

Yeah, so I was drawn to psychology pretty early on. I was kind of one of those people that people would feel comfortable opening up to. A lot of people would tell me stuff they hadn't told other people really quickly, and I was interested kind of in the field. So I, I took that path first. Wasn't religious or spiritual. If someone would have— didn't really believe in intuition or spirituality. Thought if it helps people, great, maybe it's placebo effect, which is powerful, but didn't really give it much credit beyond that. And then it was kind of early on in my career in the field where, after experiencing burnout, I ended up taking about— would travel a fair bit, and I ended up spending close to a year in India and Nepal. Then I went through my own spiritual awakening and experiencing other states of non-ordinary consciousness, intuition opening up. And so that kind of changed my whole, like, foundation and reality. And it was, it was a number of years before I could actually combine figured out how to combine both and do it in an evidence-based way. So I mean, the unconventional path is really more like that intuitive piece really guided me to ultimately start my business, write the book. Like, the way I'm working in the world is not what I would have rationally planned.

So you mentioned that spirituality coming, you know, in the beginning, it wasn't your thing. You didn't start out as someone who embraced spirituality. In fact, you was a skeptic deeply rooted in science and traditional psychology. Can you tell us more about your journey and what led you to your spiritual awakening?

Yeah, well, again, it wasn't something— you kind of hear stories of people who have like mediumship abilities or talk to their spirit guides from a young age. It wasn't anything like that for me. I wouldn't have said I was intuitive. I didn't think that was really real. There was kind of a series of different things that kind of led me to be more open to it. One that I think a lot of people can relate to is that even before I went to India or started having more experiences with non-ordinary states of consciousness, I'd had a few experiences where kind of had a gut feeling or just emotions like not trusting certain people or certain someone and really over— having my rational mind override that of like, no, you're like, Where's this coming from? There's no reason to think this, like, feeling like I was being kind of quote unquote crazy. But then evidence came through later. It was like, oh no, like, that gut feeling was like dead on. Like, that was actually right. So I think a lot of us learn that intuition's real by discounting it or like talking ourselves through it and then realizing like, no, some part of our gut feeling or people sense, whatever you want to call it, like there's some part of us that can know more than just our rational mind.

Yeah, he gives us a spirit of discernment and the things that's not seen, you know what I'm saying, seen before, but you see it in the spirit. Like, wait a minute, I've seen this already, you know what I'm saying? Not knowing, but subconsciously it's like you've already experienced that. So like you say, that's the line that tell us, nah, I shouldn't go over that line. I've already seen what's going to happen over here. And sometimes, true enough, it comes past like, whoo, I'm glad I didn't step over that line, across that boundaries, you know? And a lot of times we do. We see it and still want to test the waters, you know what I'm saying? And then once we do that, sometimes we gotta face the consequences. So you mentioned about Napa, Naples, is that what it is? Naples and India?

Nepal. Yeah.

Yeah, Nepal. You immersed yourself in practices like meditation, energy work, and breath work. What were some pivotal moments from that experience that influenced your current approach?

Yeah, well, I think it's like, if anybody's wanting to open up intuition more, it— we really do need time to get out of our rational mind. So I didn't realize it at the time, but now I know times where you're not just caught in your thinking mind of like, what should I do? Or what happens if I do this? And pros and cons lists. Like, if we have time just to be and kind of be more in the present moment. So things like meditation, anything that kind of helps us connect with our internal world whether it's like meditation, breathwork, like just being— it's like those things actually do increase that spiritual connection, or they can lead to more of an increased spiritual connection. So in hindsight, I was doing a lot of that and spending a lot of time doing that. So then it started to open up, but I didn't realize at the time that that's what— if you want to increase that, like meditate a lot more to have that time to get out of your rational mind. And even in just our day-to-day, we can make that time, even if it's like 15, 20 minutes.

I just interviewed a young lady last week, and actually this was the first time, and you're the second person that I heard about breathwork, doing breathwork. So let me show you something that she showed me and tell me if I got it right or not.

Go.

1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 8, 6, 5, you know what I'm saying? Breathe in, and then breathe, the 8-second rule to breathe out just to try to clear yourself and your thoughts and everything. That's something that she taught me the other day. I've been trying I've been trying to work on that ever since you talked, because I had never heard of it or whatnot. And like I said, you're the second person that I've actually heard about breathwork. I didn't even know that it was such a thing. But now that you confirmed what she said—

What I like for the intuitive piece, I think there's lots of different types of breathwork. A lot of it's the main premise is using breathing to regulate your nervous system, or there can be ways to almost release old emotions. What I like about the second piece too is like signs and synchronicities are one thing where it's like that intuitive world, source, God, universe, energy, like a way it speaks to us. So I kind of have a general rule. If there's like something that comes up 3 times in a short amount of time that it's like, this is weird, I've never heard of this and now it keeps coming up, I usually am like, I want to see what's there. It's almost like a little breadcrumb from the universe.

Yeah. You know, a lot of times, like you say, confirmation, you know, like you hear something, that you've been thinking. It's just like somebody that's going to church and then you thought of something and it came across your mind that you never thought of before. And then you may go to a service or something like that and then you hear the pastor, you know what I'm saying, somebody say the same exact thing or in the same form that, you know, you was thinking of. It's like, wow, you know what I'm saying? Sometimes, like you say, the intuitive mindset that was confirmation that where I was at or what I'm on, you know what I'm saying, may be on the right path to just keep going the way that I'm going. And so we all want confirmation on certain things. If the universe or God or whoever can speak to us ourself and say, "Hey, you're on the right path to do what you doing," you know what I'm saying? We would love that so much. And sometimes our answer comes through other forms, you know, through somebody else speaking, you know what I'm saying? Maybe seeing something on TV like, "Ooh, I was just thinking about that." You know, so I know in my view, I look at it as confirmation, like, okay, this is what I'm supposed to be doing, this is the direction that I'm on. Because sometimes we can doubt ourselves on if what I heard or what I'm seeing is actually the right path or the right way to go. And then once you get confirmation, you'd be like, okay, maybe it is the right path. And so I stick with it and won't quit. So, but like you said, we all have different, different ways and different paths that we think about things and do things for sure, and different ways of like receiving that information where it does tend to be—

there's the signs synchronicities.

Some people, it's dreams. And then others, we tend to have kind of a dominant sensory ability, whether it's like you're more likely to have it hear a message. And it's a different quality. It's being aware of what's going on inside of you as well as the external. So often people might feel like time's slowing down, they might get goosebumps. There's like a different piece of like something's really jumping out with that piece of like that piece of the sermon or that over that snippet of conversation, because it is almost It's almost coming— usually it can come as almost a response to a question we've been asking ourselves. It might be like, how do I be less stressed? Or how do I like— show me a way to have more peace. And it might be like the breathwork, breathwork, breathwork. Like, okay, like, this is my guidance for me on where I am on my path right now.

Yeah, this message was for me today. And so, uh, Katie, let's talk about your book. You've written a bold and eye-opening book called F: Toxic Spirituality: Avoiding Red Flags and Navigating the Spiritual Path with Integrity. What inspired you to write this book? And who is it actually for?

Yeah, so I wrote it mainly when I went through my spiritual awakening, I started to have experiences. And I still do that just don't fit with like Western psychology. Well, I mean, when we get into hearing and seeing, sensing things that other people may not see, sense or feel like a lot of that can to potentially get flagged as psychosis, or there's not a lot of place in the DSM to put it. I pick up things in people's childhood or like ancestral fields, I'd get stuff from like deceased loved ones, like all sorts of different experiences that I never would have even believed were possible before. And I've had enough evidence and confirmation of that to know like there's something there that's not just my rational mind. But basically, when I was looking for help and mentorship and like, how do I make sense of this, who can help me with this? Looking in psychology or the Western medical system as a whole, there's not many people. It can be very difficult to find, like, who can I even talk to about this without, like, worried that I'm gonna get labeled as something else. Whereas if you're still functioning in 3D reality, if you still have that ability to be like, not everyone's— this is going to sound kind of quote unquote crazy— many people actually do have spiritual experiences but may not talk about them openly. But the other side of it too is when then there's many people who are kind of coaches or healers or unlicensed, and there's really great— there's some really helpful people and like good-hearted people there. There's also like the Wild West of all sorts of people in that space too. And so I had my own experiences there, and some of those were not like positive. They were not people I would trust or recommend. Didn't really know what to look for. And then in a decade of kind of specializing in doing this work with transpersonal psychology, like trauma healing, people who are going through more spiritual awakenings, who are looking to have that spiritual part as a part of their psychology experience, there's just so many things that just came up again and again and again with, I mean, hundreds or even thousands of people that I've worked with already. And there were so many times I'd find myself talking with clients and be like, well, how would you know, like, there's no guidebook for this. So there were these themes that just would come up over and over again that could be on the spectrum of— there's many things that are just well-intentioned but not super helpful. Like some of it's more of this like almost watered-down capitalistic, like manifestation where it's really more like ego consumerism of just imagine the check or like, don't think any bad thoughts or like you're going to manifest something terrible. Stuff that's not informed of like how the nervous system works. And if you have trauma, you can't just positively think your way out of a trauma response. Like that's not how our nervous system works. So there can be a lot of kind of toxic positivity or bypassing, but then there can also be—

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Like, people in that space who may be doing harm just because they don't know better, they don't know what they don't know. People in a vulnerable situation can get into trouble. And then there's a small percentage where it's like, even if they're really charismatic, they may have a high degree of psychic gifts or spiritual ability, like, they can actually be very toxic, dangerous personality styles, and they can do a ton of damage. To people who end up kind of following them.

Yeah, I agree with that too, because like you say, I don't know what I don't know. I use it in a different way as far as trying to teach someone something or explain something. Just like if I'm trying to show something to my son, I can't teach him something that I don't know, you know what I'm saying? Like, I can only teach him what I know. And if I'm trying to teach him something that I don't know, like you said, it could be dangerous to someone else that I'm trying to lead, but I don't even know where I'm going myself. So like, think it's the old saying, like the blind leading the blind, the blind leading the blind to nowhere. So Katie, as we talk about toxic spirituality, in your book you talked about this toxic spirituality. Can you explain what that actually mean and why it's important to recognize red flags in spiritual communities and teachings?

Yeah, again, I think it's— in the book, I talk about like different kinds of places on the spectrum of where things can be harmful. I think from being a depth therapist, I do think the majority of people are doing the best they can, like are good people trying their best, doing the best they can with where they're at. So some of the book is just to help people— how do you recognize like where to go to for help? I also wanted to kind of bridge the conversation because I think things can get very just like Western psychology over here, and then like spiritual communities over here. And there can be a lot of divide between those and not enough kind of collaboration or overlap. Because I think there's a lot of benefit for professionals to have more awareness of like, even if this isn't your specialty, like this doesn't mean it's a mental health concern off the bat. I mean, it's still important to screen for that. And on the spiritual side, it's like also some spiritual communities can go into like, oh, this is just a spiritual awakening, or it's just like God speaking to you, where it may actually be a symptom of like bipolar or a traumatic spiritual awakening. Like there may be mental health also going on at the same time. So it's just, I think there's so much stuff that there's very, there's not a lot of credible information. When people try to Google and find stuff, it's hard to know who to talk to about any of these things. And also there's many well-meaning spiritual communities, but we still have this cultural influence of when people are going through really hard things, as a society, we're not really good at holding space. And that balance of sometimes, like, do you actually want spiritual support, everything happens for a reason, reassurance, like, this is quote unquote God's plan? Or do you actually need to just feel like the anger, the sadness, like have space for that without judgment? Because my whole kind of mission piece is more of the education around Even if we are spiritual beings, we're still spiritual beings in a human nervous system, and we need to consider both.

You mentioned something, and I didn't have this, I was just thinking about it as you said it, as far as when you're going through something spiritual, it could be mental health. So I guess my question is, when you're dealing with a situation like that where somebody may be going through a spiritual battle or something, and then we say that it may be a mental health issue, how do you attack that issue, or how do you address that issue when you're dealing with someone like that?

Yeah, so for me, getting into more of the, like, if it's schizophrenic, bipolar, psychosis-based, that's not my area of expertise. So I would always encourage people and be trying to refer out for them to at least get an assessment, get stabilized. I don't want to work with people around opening that intuitive connection unless it's stable and grounded. So most of the people I work with, it's like they're functioning in day-to-day reality. They are stable. It's not a, like, break. But I think it's important to have that stabilization to be able to function here first.

Yeah.

And again, on the red flag part of things too, it's just— it's a small percentage of the population. But I think whether we're in spiritual spaces or not, it's important to be able to know. I think it should almost be high school education of, like, emotional maturity. Like, is someone accountable? Can they regulate their own emotions? Because there's spectrums of that. And emotional maturity is a spectrum. We're all— nobody's fully arrived. We can always grow and evolve and have more wisdom, get better as we get— like, as we learn and get more wisdom, as we know better, we can do better. But there's some people who aren't really— like, they get older bodies, but they're not really emotionally maturing, or they may be regressing. And there's dangerous personality types where it gets into almost like personality pathology. Where those high levels of those traits, when people are not working on it or they're not actively managing that, do actually result in a high degree of trauma for people really close to them.

As you said, because I'm working on— I got another podcast, and one of my things, as you were talking about, as we get older, but that don't mean that we get— you know what I'm saying? That don't mean that we're maturing. And one of my main themes on there is scriptorial. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I reasoned as a child, but when I became older, I put childish things away. And so I used that as a stepping stool because a lot of times, as you said, we may be getting older, but that don't mean that I'm maturing or taking responsibility or having accountability in my life, although that I'm grown. So we figure when I'm grown, I could do whatever I want to do, whatever, but I'm still operating in a childish capacity, but I just don't know it. But when I present myself to Katie or people out, people see the childish mentality that I have. And I also love the point where you say that, you know, gaining more wisdom, because it also say that wisdom is the principal thing, you know. And then all things and all you're getting, get wisdom and understanding. So I'm with you on that 100%. So let me ask you, Katie, For this book, Toxic Spirituality, what are one of the takeaways you hope readers to gain from F Toxic Spirituality?

Yeah, well, I wanted it to be— I wrote it more as kind of a roadmap for people and reflection questions so that they can take it and in their own search, they can like deepen their connection with their own intuition. They also have some kind of checkpoints or questions that they can come back to to say like, when they're evaluating a community, someone to work with. I mean, my hope is again that when people know better, they can kind of do better, so that I'm hoping that people can kind of protect themselves or be safer in finding the right community. Because when you're going through that kind of shift in worldview of like an spiritual awakening, it's really more this experience of— it's not a rational exercise anymore. You're not deciding to believe in something. You actually know, like you have an experience or series of experiences that really change things for you. And I think it's important to have safe people you can talk to about that, because much of the population, either they may have had it, but many people don't talk about it, because they're kind of afraid of being stigmatized, or people thinking they're weird or quote unquote crazy. But it is a lot more common than we realize, or that many people share. And so it is like, it's important to have safe people you can talk to about that so you're not totally alone in it and that you have community. But also to know, like, because I think sometimes you get into these spaces where you're like, oh, everyone's well-meaning, or it's quote-unquote spiritual, or oh, if they have these high level of gifts— like, I made that mistake of thinking, oh, you must be more like safer or more kind of quote-unquote enlightened or evolved or something if you have this. And like, sometimes people can be very psychic and actually very dangerous at the same time. So, and it's like you wouldn't know that because who's taught you what to look for and what not to look for? Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I agree with that because as I always said, it does matter who you listen to, you know, 'cause like my podcast is Planting Seeds with CJ. So a lot of times, even, you know, with you, what you write in your book, things that you're doing, at the end of the day, we all planting seeds, you know, to individuals. We putting things, materials out there for people to read, hopefully to gain, you know, to gain wisdom and knowledge from. So at the end of the day, whether I'm doing music or whatever, it all depends on what type of seeds you're planting. And so that goes back to it does matter who you listening to and who imparting things in you, because as you said earlier, some things that's being imparted into you can be dangerous to a person, and the person that's imparting into you don't know how dangerous it is because they don't know the depths of, you know what I'm saying, what's going on with them eternally, you know. And I'm spreading that out to somebody else, so it does matter who you listen And so with that, Katie, let me ask you, you also focus a lot on healing trauma in your work. How does your approach, which blends with psychology and spirituality, differ from more traditional trauma healing methods?

Yeah, well, I am also trained in evidence-based trauma healing. I'm also a trauma therapist as well. So it's another area of training for me as well. The way they kind of dovetail together is, when we're really learning to kind of connect with that voice inside of us, like you said, that guidance, those messages that come through, the times we really want that are usually pretty emotionally intense decisions in our life. Like, if we— those are the times we want to be able to, like, punch it into a search engine and be like, tell me the answer of, like, what I should do here. Do I stay in the relationship? Do I go? Do I move? Do I not? Like, there are high emotional intensity decisions, and we really have to have a pretty strong foundation of trust in our intuition to even get information there because there's so much on the line. So one of my main pieces, it's not to be for people to listen to me. I want to help direct them back to be like, we all have that connection within us. Like, I do think it's part of our divine birthright. It's part of our collective, like, evolution and a brain ability. There's neuroscience that supports that. It's like we can ask questions and also receive answers from this larger field. Of loving consciousness that we each have a direct line to. So I think it's— other people can help you access that within yourself, but they should never be a substitute for that. Where it can get really tricky is our past experience and nervous system. Our subconscious and unconscious is all about protecting us and keeping us safe. So intuition can sometimes let us know that something is there, but it may not be the full answer yet. Like sometimes our body might be like, oh, I feel really anxious about this, or I get tight, or I feel a block. That might be an intuitive no, but many times it may also be like, oh, there might be some childhood stuff around this was unsafe before. And so if we're really on an intuitive spiritual path, like, to really embrace that, I do think it is part of— we have to be on a healing journey as well, because then we have to get better at recognizing like when is something like you said about that kind of being grown or not, even when we are emotionally maturing, we can become more aware of like, oh, something's going on inside of me. Something in the world has now triggered a bigger reaction inside of me where some of this may not be all the present. Because that's the, the key piece around spiritual being and human nervous system is human nervous system stores stuff. Like, it is evolutionarily an advantage to protect us, to keep us safe, to be like, nope, that might be a snake, let's just be afraid of this. Just in case. So it'll often require us to be more aware of like, what is coming up? How do we kind of move through that? And having tools to move through that is important. And then more clear, like just intuitive knowing can come through because pure intuitive knowing is not fearful. It's not anxiety-based. It should feel calm, relaxed, neutral. But our emotions, our rational brain, and like old emotional stuff can come up. It'll be like, oh, I don't like that answer.

Yeah, exactly. Because it's not what I want to hear.

Yeah.

Yeah, like, that's scary. It feels unknown. Yeah.

And that's the type of society that we're just living in right now. Some people don't want to hear truth, and I want you to tell me what I want to hear. You know, I might be dead wrong and approaching the situation that I'm in, and you're telling me like, no, Corwin, you're going the wrong way. That's not— you know, you should think about it this way. I don't want to hear from Katie. I want to hear or be around somebody that's gonna tell me what's in my mind and what I want to do and how I want to pursue it, whether right, wrong, or indifferent. This is what I want to do. But if you telling me the truth, and I know it's the truth, and like you say, that intuition deep down inside, I know what you're saying is the truth, but F that, I don't want to hear that. I don't want to hear that. So Katie, you worked with thousands of clients over the years. Looking back, What's one of the most rewarding experiences you've had while helping someone on their healing journey?

Yeah, well, the, the themes around the most rewarding pieces is I think it's just seeing when people, when they can have that time, when they can have the commitment to find the right person or the right, like, the right tools that work for them. There's many things where it's not always a quick fix. It's not always like, here's an instant thing, you do this one thing, it changes everything. But it's like, over time, people can really change, like transform their lives for the better. And I think one of the most inspiring things is seeing that for people. Like, many times people may come to psychology because things really aren't working well, but when they start getting tools of— like, they see the benefit of doing the work and see how that ripples out, there's a certain percentage that it will stay, and they'll go even beyond, like, what they would have thought was possible for themselves when they first came in. Like they may stick with it and just do even more. And like, I work with a lot of people where they're really kind of transforming generational cycles. Like, they're the first one who's parenting differently, like leading differently in their relationships, really being so much more empowered than they ever thought was possible. And it doesn't mean being fully healed, like it doesn't mean they don't have their stuff, but just being proud of who they are, showing up differently, like the way that ripples out for the people around them, I think it's, it's just doing our own work can be so powerful because it's not— it's a quiet presence that people notice and they're like, what are you doing different? And you're not trying to force them to change, but some people will want to change just because they see that, or they get the benefit of like a parent who's more attuned and emotionally regulated. Like, it can change workplaces. It's just, I do think like that the change in the world has to ripple out from individuals. Leading with love but also boundaries.

Yeah, that's true. That's exactly true. And as you speak, I'm thinking, you know, like Katie, you bring a light, you know, you bring a light to you. So wherever you go, that light shines. Some people are drawn to it, some people are thrown off by it, you know. Some people don't want to be in the light, you know. Some people want to stay in the darkness, you know. And so like you say, that type of attitude and that type of mentality It does change situations. And as you said, it's an individual thing as you want to be a generational breaker, you know what I'm saying? You want to break the generational curses or, you know, you don't know what your great-great-grandmother or great-grandfather did back in the day. So only thing that you can control is yourself and lead your family the way that you feel, you know, fit and lead it by the light. Be that back in the light, you know what I'm saying? It can't hide under a lamp, you know what I'm saying? Let your light shine wherever you go. So Katie, before we wrap up, where can we find your book? Let's go there now. And since TikTok is still alive and well, what are some of your media handles that we can follow you at?

Yeah, so everything's kind of at my website, katieturnerpsychology.com. I do also have like a free quiz and a free 6-week Deepen Your Intuition Challenge that people can get right there. And the book is listed under my website as well. And Katie Turner Psychology is usually where you find me on like Instagram, Facebook places. Probably my newsletter is where I'm more active, but I am a little bit active on social too.

So are your books available on Amazon, Barnes Noble, and things like that?

It should be on Amazon, and then it's on a few other ones too. I do have like on my website there is a page that links to like where you can find it.

Okay, I'll be sure to put your website link in the show notes when this come out. So thanks again, Katie, for being part of the CJ Moneyway Show. And to our listeners, thank you for tuning in. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review, subscribe, and share with someone who might need to hear this message. Make sure to grab a copy of Katie's book, Toxic Spirituality, and stay tuned for more thought-provoking conversations. Until next time, stay grounded, stay curious, and keep growing. This is CJ Moneyway signing off. We outta here. Peace.

Thank you for listening to the CJ Moneyway Show.

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