“The Power of Servant Leadership with Jon Antonucci”

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Welcome to the CJ Moneyway Show podcast, the podcast show where we unlock potential one dream at a time. Today we have another guest whose journey is truly worth hearing. Sit back, relax, and enjoy the Moneyway experience.

What's up, my good people? Welcome to the CJ Moneyway Show in association with Believe Network. You already know this is the place where we drop gems, share knowledge, and help you grow in every area of your life. Today we're talking leadership, but not just any type of leadership. We're talking about servant leadership, a style that focuses on empowering and engaging with your team in a way that drives real impact. My guest today is John Ananuchi.

You just did it.

Leadership coach, mentor, and founder of SLM consultant with over 20 years of leadership experience, from coaching youth sports to leading international organizations. John is passionate about helping guiding leaders from frontline and middle-class management professionals develop servant leadership skills that truly transform workplaces. If you're a leader in a leadership position or looking to step into leadership, this conversation is going to be a game changer. Hey John, man, welcome to the show, man.

I appreciate that, CJ. I appreciate you very much. It's great to be here.

Uh, thank you for taking the time out today, man, from doing one of your leadership conferences, man, to come on the CJ Moneyway Show, man. Appreciate it. So, John, man, let's start with your journey, man. You got two decades of leadership experience across different industries. What first got you passionate about leadership?

I think my passion for leadership was later in the game because at the beginning, I think I was like most leaders. I was a bad leader. It was all about me. I was trying to get a title, trying to get money, trying to get prestige, trying to get all the things that, you know, you want as you're growing in an organization, trying to get up the ladder, whatever it is. And it wasn't until down that path a little ways where I started to recognize that real leadership was not about any of that. Real leadership was about serving people. Real leadership was about the opportunity to make a difference in somebody's lives, to be there and to provide a, I guess, provide a safe space. The term means different things nowadays, but provide a safe space where your people can thrive and blossom. And as I began to learn what it looked like to be a leader, I really wanted to allow others to find that same journey and find that same fulfillment because there's really just an incredible fulfillment and purpose in empowering leaders. It's an incredible thing, man, you know.

And I like the fact that, you know, like your title, the whole thing, uh, servant leadership, man, you know, that's something that you get from the word, you know, that we get from church and things of that nature, man. So I appreciate people like yourself, man, that's going out there, they're just not thinking about, you know, yourself, but you want to help others develop their lives, you know. You could take what you do and just say, okay, I'm in this position, I'm doing pretty good in life, But to take what you got, man, your knowledge and your understanding, man, and to help others, that's the ultimate goal right there, man. Absolutely. So I appreciate you doing that. So, John, man, let me ask you, man, you talk about servant leadership and love-based leadership. Can you break down for us what does true servant leadership look like in action?

Well, I think servant leadership in action is really— I mean, the name defines the concept. It's leadership that serves. It's a leadership that gives instead of takes. And I tend to think that servant leadership, which was introduced back in like the 1970s by a guy by the name of Robert Greenleaf, he was the one that popularized the term servant leadership. And it kind of has gone through this morphing change where it started out really good, like, hey, how are you going to serve? How are you going to be there for your people? And then it kind of got into this weird business sense. And now, I'm sure, you know, anyone that's a leader knows that there's so many different coaches and all these other things out there that really want to charge a lot of money. And so, they really had to start focusing on the return on that investment. And so, I think that servant leadership as an idea is super solid in the sense that it really does speak to serving your people. But I think that it has in some ways, probably by accident, gotten hijacked into this real idea of, "Okay, if I serve, then I will get more." And I don't know about your perception on that, but my thought is that once I start to do something in exchange, Well, now it's a quid pro quo. I'm not actually serving. I'm really trying to engage in transactional behavior. So, when I started SML Consulted, I added the word minded in there, servant-minded leadership. And I did that not because I think that it makes a huge difference in terms of how it looks, but because it makes us stop and think for a second. Wait a minute. Why did you add that word in there, Jon? What's that about? And it gives me an opportunity to share that. What I really think leaders should be doing is being mindful of the fact that they are going to make an impact on their team. And the only question is, is that impact going to be positive or negative? So, when you ask, you know, what does it look like in action? It looks like a leader that genuinely cares about their team, that loves their team, and is mindful of the reality that they are playing an impactful role in the lives of those they lead. And they have an immense responsibility to make that a positive impact.

I like that, man. You brought out some great tools and some great qualities, you know, say that you brought out in that. So let me ask you, man, because you touched on this earlier about yourself, you were— many people think leadership is about authority, control, and making the big decisions. How does servant leadership Shift that perspective.

It literally reverses the perspective. So we think of perspective and that's the way we see things. And what it does, it takes it from a perspective on me. What do I look like? How is my career getting advanced? What am I doing? And it shifts it and it says, okay, what obligation do I have to my team? I like to tell people that, especially new leaders, I like to say, you are in the unenviable position of getting to deflect all of the credit to your team and absorb all of the blame onto yourself. And that's what real leadership is. It flips it on its head, right? So you go back to that authority, prestige, telling people what to do. Well, what happens, right? That's where you get phrases like stuff rolls downhill. Because if I'm going to get in trouble and you're below me, oh, you're definitely in trouble. But that's not what leadership is. And in fact, it doesn't take any kind of special person to do that. Anybody can step out of the way of the rock rolling down hill and let it hit the person behind them. It takes someone that really sees and has a passion for people to say, no, I got that rock. You guys safely pass on, keep making your journey, let me carry this burden for you. And it completely shifts the entire focus of one's existence from a how can I succeed to a how can I help you succeed.

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I like that, man. You was talking, you made me think about something. I remember I was working in the casino and I was a craps dealer. I was dealing dice and I had this box person, man, you know, like a supervisor, and she was just the meanest person it was, you know, just mean like you say. Always barking orders and this and that. And I said to myself one day, man, she was saying something. I said to myself, if I ever get in a position like that, which I did, I said, if I ever got— I wouldn't— I ain't gonna act like that, you know what I'm saying? Like, because it's different ways to be in leadership. And some, like you say, some people, you know, it's all about the power and authority and telling people what to do, you know. It's not really about actually leading people and making them better. You know, it's just you feeling yourself a little bit too much. So yeah, man. So you made me think about that when you said that.

I often tell people that you should be the leader you wish you had. And that's not original to me, but, but I think it's a good strategy, right? Because we tend to be the leader we had. We tend to be something that's not great. And I think a lot of leaders, we say that they're copies of copies. So you had a bad leader that barked orders and had unreasonable demands and didn't want to do any of the work. So delegated it down and so they could do nothing. And so, what happens? Well, the minute you get to that role, it's like, "Okay, cool. It's my turn. Now, it's my turn to not have to do anything and to give it all to somebody else and to bark orders and to blame them when things go wrong." And what happens when one of them gets promoted? "Now, it's my turn." And it just becomes copies of copies and it really takes a very courageous person to step in and say, "Ends with me," like you just said. I'm not going to do that. And when I get there, I'm going to let my people see their value and I'm going to confer dignity to them because that's what they deserve.

Yeah. Well put. I can't even put that note on top of that. That was well put. So let me ask you, John, man, ananuchi, what are some of the core qualities of a great servant leader?

There's so many, right? There's so many different things. Often it is nuanced based on the situation. And what I mean is not that the qualities change, but the manifestation. Of those qualities change. But I think if I were to just bring them down to a few simple principles, I would start with— probably sounds cliché, but I really believe it— start by loving your people. If you don't have an authentic love for your people, you don't actually care about them, it is really, really hard to make those sacrificial servant-minded decisions when you don't really care about your people, when they're just stepping stones on your path, when they're just peons, when they're just numbers, when they're just whatevers. I think it really starts with us looking at a human being in front of us and saying, that person is valuable regardless of what their skills are, regardless of what their age is, regardless of what their socioeconomic background is, whatever. That person has value. And I think that if leaders will simply just learn to genuinely love their people, then what that will do is that will facilitate an opportunity for them to say, I'm going to do what's best for you. Now, that's not always what you want. I'm sure when you were that leader, no matter how hard you tried, there were times you had to tell people no because it wasn't best for them. I give the illustration all the time, right? If we gave a raise to every employee that asked every time, we'd quickly work them out of a job because the company wouldn't be able to support the raise. So sometimes, no, I want you to have a stable, secure income for a long term. And that means the company has to stay in business. Is the best thing that one can do. But genuinely caring about our people, not, oh, those greedy little whatevers. No, it's like, no, I care about you. And the best thing I can do for you right now is do what's best for you, whatever that looks like. I think the second thing, as you love people, it makes it easier to hit the second thing, and that is prioritize people over processes. When you're scaling a company, processes come into play in a big way. But the minute they become more important than the people, you've already lost. Zig Ziglar made the statement that you don't build a business, you build people and people build the business. Your people have to come first. And I see this happen. I really think this is why a lot of businesses fail when they start to scale. Because there's this, when you first start a business, you know all your people, you're able to navigate that. And assuming you're a halfway decent visionary leader, you're gonna be able to attract the right people to you. Well, the minute you start to scale multiple locations, well, now you need people in those locations and they're not going to attract the same way you are. Plus, it's not their company. It's a job to them. It's your baby, right? So you end up having to put policies and procedures and SOPs and all those things in place, but you can't ever forget about the people that stand behind those things. And one of the reasons I love the show Undercover Boss so much is because that principle comes out all the time. How many times on that show do we see a scenario where a CEO or some other high executive individual goes down and realizes that these policies that seemed like a good idea in the C-suite were negatively impacting the people? And here's the reality that a lot of leaders need to understand: the way you treat your people, your internal clients, your staff, is the way that staff is going to treat your external clients, your customers. And so first, truly love them. Second of all, prioritize them. And then the third one is listen to them. Listen, good leader.

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Just listen.

And we, we know that's hard to do, especially in the world we living in. So that's another, uh, topic. So let me ask you, John Mack, leadership isn't easy, right? And a lot of leaders struggle to connect, as you were saying, with their teams.

Mm-hmm.

What are some of the biggest mistakes you see leaders do?

I think probably the biggest mistake is stealing dignity from their people. They treat them harshly. They ignore their ideas. They act as though their people are not that important. And there's just so much of that that a human being will take before one of two things happen. Either they remove themselves from the equation. They, you know, I'm not going to be treated like this, and they go find something else. Or worse, they start to believe they're not valuable. And from a corporate perspective, that's horrible because if you start believing you're not valuable, then you stop doing valuable things. But from a personal perspective, we're talking impact. Like I said earlier, beating the dignity out of your people, whether physically or metaphorically, is not okay. And I see that happen a lot. One of the ways that I see this happen most, and they don't even realize they're doing it, is when a customer comes in. With a complaint of some sort, and the staff member has a certain rule that they have to follow, and the customer demands to see a manager, and then a manager comes out and overrules their employee and does what the customer wants. Now, as a customer, you like that. Let me talk to the manager, I get what I want. As an employee, here's what just happened. They just stood up for what they thought was right. They just stood for what you told them to do, probably. And then they just got undercut and made them look like the bad guy. And I tell managers all the time, if you are going to reverse a decision, It needs to be the opposite. If you come out and talk to the client, that should be because you're— only because you're backing up your person. No, this is how it's going to be, and I'm the bad guy. You don't get mad at Susan. That's on me. I made that decision. If you can overturn it, empower your people to go do that. Send them back out there and say, hey, you know what, I talked to my manager, and yes, we can do this for you. Let them be the good person. But I see that happen all the time in almost every industry where managers undercut their staff and it demoralizes them. And that's just an example. That's not, you know, a hard hard and fast issue, that's an example of how a manager without even meaning to will absolutely steal dignity from their people and rob them of the value that they bring to a situation or a position.

I like that because it happens all the time, you know, all the time with frontline employees. And, you know, like you say, make us feel like we dumb or stupid. These are the policy that you And then sometimes some of the managers, they'll berate you. Yeah, I'm saying like in front of people and really break down your morale. So yeah, I get that. I like that. So let me ask you another question, uh, John. How do you build trust within a team, especially when there's tension or past leadership failures?

That is one of my favorite questions because I've lived it on both sides and I think it's one of my favorite things to deal with with frontline leaders because that happens, right? We talked about how many leaders have a misplaced perception of what leadership means. And so then somebody comes in like, okay, I'm going to be better. I'm going to be a servant-minded leader. Well, they still got to deal with all the baggage. They still got to deal with all the trauma. They still got a team that doesn't trust them. And I tell everyone the same thing. I say, do whatever you can to show them that you care about them. More than you care about coming in and changing things. I got some personal examples that I could share, but the idea is not, oh, John has the answer. The idea is what your people need to know is that they are valuable, their ideas are valuable, and at that point, trust will start to build.

Come in.

And it's not like a— not a weird idea, right? When you come in, they'll say, don't make a lot of changes all at once. How about make zero changes all at once, except take time to talk to every single person on the team. Maybe I shouldn't even say talk to, take time to listen. I remember going into a position where there was some of that tension that you described, and I literally spent the first 3 months sitting with people, doing their jobs with them, and having half-hour or hour conversations depending on what position they held, just listening. Not telling them what my plans were, not trying to cast vision, not letting them know how the, you know, the new sheriff's in. No, just, hey, what do you think? How have you felt the last couple of years? What are some ideas that you feel like never got any traction but you feel like would still be a good idea today as they were when you shared. And I listened to every single member of that team. And does that— did I never make changes?

No.

Eventually I said, okay guys, I've listened, I've heard, I've watched, I have observed, I've done everything. And you know that I care about you because I've shown it, not because I've told you, because I've shown you. If you can do that— and I understand not everyone has 3 months, sometimes you have a week, okay, great— use every minute you can to sharpen that axe of relationship building. So that they know you care about them. And then half the time it just becomes messaging. When you do have to make a change, you're going to have to make changes. That's what leadership does, right? Change management is half of our problem, right? And so when you do, how do you communicate that? Do you communicate it because, hey, this is just the way it is, I said it, you better do it?

Yeah.

Or do you communicate it as, all right guys, here's the deal. I looked, I listened, I watched, I learned, and I believe that the best thing I can do for you, this team, your success, our success is make this change. And if you disagree, that's okay. I'm happy to listen to that. All I'm going to ask is that you give it a shot. You know, give me 2 months of trying, and if it doesn't work, I'll admit it. And then of course, you actually have to if it doesn't work. If you don't admit it, then you lose trust again. But as long as you're authentic and you really care about them and you're doing what's best, you're going to gain a lot of steam and a lot of traction really fast.

I like your concept, because to me, basically what you're saying is as the leader, any type of leader, you have to be the one to be able to take accountability if things ain't going wrong. Because a lot of people don't want to take accountability for what— yes, actions that they do, you know what I'm saying? And as a leader, it's just not feasible for us to do that, you know. You got to take accountability, man. But we living in a society now where, you know, accountability really don't matter no more. So, uh, yeah, let me ask you, John, man, You've worked with so many different leaders. What's one leadership lesson that has stuck with you the most?

Hmm. This was a leadership lesson that surprised me, and it was let your people try to do it their way. And I'll tell you the story. I was a leader, but I was not the senior leader in a situation. But I tended to be the guy that the senior leader would call to kind of run the ideas by me. Just to kind of see, because I would give him feedback on it. And so he calls me up and he says, hey, we're getting ready to have this meeting. Here's my idea. What do you think? We talked it over. I thought his idea was really, really good. The rest of the managers came on to the call, had the whole conversation, and they were not on board. And at the end of the call, he just let them do it their way and said, okay, you know, handle your business. After the call, I got on the phone. I was like, dude, what are you doing? Your idea was way better. Like, what? And he said, I learned a long time ago, John, Sometimes it's better to just let them do it their way because they're actually going to be passionate about it and they're going to actually give better results. Even if it truly is a subpar way, we're going to get better results letting them do it in the way that they're passionate about and that they're confident in than we are if I try to force them to do it my way and we get the half effort of them doing it the way that they were told they had to do it instead of the way they get to do it. And that was later. That was only just a couple of years ago. And I just remember sitting back and just like, There is so much wisdom in that perspective too. Just because you're right, even if you're truly right, and half the time we're not, let's just be honest, half the time we're not. But even if we're truly right, do we have to be, or can we let somebody do it their way? And I think you win no matter what, because not only do you have the opportunity to let them operate in their giftings and in their passions, but if it works, Great. You just found a new way that may work better than your way. And if it doesn't, they learn organically instead of from someone telling them it's not going to work and breaking their spirit and losing their dignity. So, I loved that lesson. And that was one that has really resonated with me now for a couple of years.

Yeah. That's a good lesson. I'm glad you said wisdom. I just got off an interview with a cousin of mine. We did an interview about wisdom. We started the podcast, I was in the transition thinking I was doing one, and we just got through talking about wisdom. Hit it right on the head with that one, man. Wisdom covers a lot of things, you know what I'm saying? It really does.

Indeed it does.

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So, uh, John, I only got a couple more questions for you, man, and So what's next for you? Are you working on any exciting projects or ways people can work with you?

Yeah. So we did a soft launch in January. Our real launch is gonna be in April. We're debuting a new leadership certification program that's designed for leaders directly. So most of what SML does is, you know, goes into a company and the company will hire us to do workshops or certifications or whatever. But we found that there were quite a few leaders that their company might not want didn't necessarily want to bring us in, but they still wanted to gain these leadership principles. And so, coming in April, we're going to be launching our Intro to Leadership certification course. It's going to be virtual. It's going to be in mornings or evenings. So, it's like off hours and you don't have to get permission from your boss to take it. You can just invest in your own success and growth. So, that's something really exciting. And they can reach out to me on LinkedIn or shoot an email to info@servantmindedleadership.com. To get more information on that. And then hopefully we're kind of in the tail end. I don't have an official date right now because as with these projects, there's always delays. But we're looking for an April or May launch of the book I wrote, How Mindfulness Changes Servant Leadership.

Hmm. Well, tell us a little bit about your book, man, so we go out there and go grab it.

Yeah. So like I said, we're hoping for an April or May launch. I was hoping for an April one, but editors still have it right now and they need to get it back to me.

April Fool's.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, no kidding. Exactly. But yeah, the concept is basically what I touched on earlier in this interview, and that is that servant leadership was fantastic even though it got made popular in the '70s. It really goes back thousands of years. You can look at the writings you mentioned, you know, learn in church. Jesus himself was a servant leader, and there's tons of historical documentation of the concepts. But then it got more and more popular, and then it kind of just— I feel like it got off track. I feel like the ROI, the what am I going to get for being a servant leader became too much of the conversation. And so, the book is— it kind of just goes through a little bit of the history of servant leadership, where it was good, where it got off track, how I feel like we can bring it back on track. And then, we spend the last part of the book with real tangible ways, how can a leader be a good servant-minded leader? And the whole book is built to be very small chapters, easily digestible. It's not going to be a huge, you know, tome, but just a small digestible chapter. And then the other thing we're going to do is we're going to put, or we have a one-page summary from each chapter there in the back so that if you just want to get a quick refresher on your way out the door to put a principle in practice, you can take 3 minutes, read that one page, and you're refreshing your brain and keeping it in the forefront.

That's a good idea. I like that. So, John, man, make sure, you know, when we get off the call and everything that you leave me the social media links and everything so that people can, you know, get in touch with you that way, man. For sure. Really appreciate it. So, John, man, I got this new game that I've been playing on my podcast. All right, I'm kind of like, I've been doing it for a couple weeks now. All right, John, before we wrap up, let's do this quick fire round. Just answer with the first thing that comes to your mind.

All right, let's do it.

All right, what's one leadership book that every aspiring leader should read?

101 Leadership Principles by John Maxwell.

Like that. Did an interview with a lady that actually is being mentored by John Maxwell. She travels with him and everything. She wrote a book. I thought that was pretty cool. Yeah, I know John Maxwell, the Bible versions, you know what I'm saying? Great books. So John, if you could have dinner with one leadership icon, past or present?

I know it sounds cliché, it's Abraham Lincoln. I think he led our country through one of the most difficult times in our history, and and did so to the angst of someone that was mad enough to shoot him. And I would love to just have dinner and listen to what he as a leader went through as he was making those decisions that he knew could very well put a price on his head and tried to lead our country away from a very dark spot on our country into a much brighter future.

Native leadership and wisdom right now. So what's the What is the best leadership advice you've ever received?

Best I've ever received? I don't know if I'd count this as leadership advice, but it certainly applies to every leader, and that is talking bad about others doesn't make you any better.

Mm, that's a good one. I like that. That's a life lesson right there.

It is.

It is. That's a life lesson. That leadership, no leadership, that is a life lesson.

Indeed.

So if you could describe servant leadership in one word, what would it be?

Love.

Love. What's your favorite way to unwind outside of leadership work?

I love the mountains, play guitar every now and again. Probably in a cabin in the mountains is my sweet spot.

Okay, because you know, of course you're from Colorado, so a lot of mountains up there.

There is.

See the kid going to Colorado because I ain't going up no mountain. Is it the one where y'all got where you go around the like the bridges and all that stuff, you know, the mountains that ain't got no rail guards on the side.

There's definitely some of that in Colorado, that's for sure. I've been on some of those roads.

I'm not doing that.

There's a road that goes through North Carolina and Tennessee called the Dragon's Tail. It's got like 319 switchbacks within like a 7-mile space. It's supposed to be one of the most fun drives. I'm planning on taking that sometime in the next few months.

Now, what'd you say it was, from Tennessee to what?

I think it starts in North Carolina, goes into Tennessee. It's only like 7 miles though, and it's called the Dragon's Tail with, I think it's 319 switchbacks.

Well, you spinning around like going up and down. I'm not doing that either. That's why I asked you, where is this from? North Carolina, Tennessee? Not doing it.

I ain't going there.

So, so, John, man, it's been an incredible conversation, man, on servant leadership, workplace culture, and leading with purpose.. And I really appreciate you coming on, man. I really do.

My pleasure, CJ.

So if you're a leader or you want to become one, I highly encourage you to follow John Aninucci and check out his new work at SML Consulting. You can connect with him at his website. It'll be inserted in the notes and everything. Get with his program, check out his books when they come out. It might come out with his book on April Fool's Day. We're hoping so, uh, and you already know, if this episode gave you value, share it with someone who needs to hear it. Subscribe to the CJ Moneyway Show, drop a review, and keep tuning in for more game-changing conversations. Until next time, keep pushing, keep planting seeds, and stay inspired. Catch you all on the next episode of the CJ Moneyway Show. Hey, this your boy CJ Moneyway with my man John Aninucci. We outta here. Peace.

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