Afternoon Cyber Tea x @CybersecurityGirl

You're listening to the Cyberwire network, powered by N2K. Welcome to Afternoon Cybertea where we explore the intersection of innovation and cybersecurity. I'm your host, Dan Johnson. From the front lines of digital defense to groundbreaking advancements shaping our digital future, we will bring you the latest insights, expert interviews and captivating stories to stay one step ahead. Kaitlyn is a leading influencer with a cybersecurity focused social presence primarily on TikTok and Instagram, where she provides insights on data protection, privacy and cybersecurity. Previously, Caitlin was at the helm of TikTok's global cybersecurity advocacy and culture team, overseeing both internal and external cybersecurity awareness and educational initiatives. Before her time at TikTok, Caitlin spent nearly a decade in cybersecurity consulting. Welcome to Afternoon cybertea, Caitlin.

Thanks so much, Anne, for having me. I cannot wait to be on this.

I was really, really excited to have you on the show because I've been watching your videos on social and of course they're very viral. You know, you have more than 400,000 followers on TikTok, more than 380,000 followers on Instagram. You post videos on YouTube and you run a community and also offer training courses on cybersecurity. So as we're thinking about this afternoon CyberTea audience and allowing them to get to know you a little bit better. Can we go all the way back before you started dedicating time on TikTok and Instagram, what first got you interested in cybersecurity and why have you stuck with it?

Yeah, so I, I love this story because it was a very random way of how I got in. And I think that's similar to a lot of people that have been in the cybersecurity field for a bit, a bit of time. Cybersecurity wasn't a real major in college when I was going to university, so I did aerospace mechanical engineering, which is completely different. And actually I had taken coding classes and they were the worst classes I had ever taken. I barely, barely passed both of the classes that I was forced to take in my engineering degree. And I was applying after my master's degree to do tech consulting because they really did not know what I wanted to do. And when I was going through the application process and the interview process, I actually had met someone from Ernst and Young, which is where I had started my cybersecurity career. And she had said, you know, we're really, we're starting our cybersecurity program. Would you be interested in trying It. I'm a problem solver. I love learning. And so I didn't want to tell her that I was really bad at coding, but in my head I was like, well, she doesn't know how bad of coding I am, but, like, sure, like, I'll give it a go. And she goes, you know, you don't have to stay in it, but we can train you and then see if you want to stay in IT or go a different tech route. And so that's kind of how it started. It was very random, and I honestly had very similar thoughts to what the majority of the public think about cybersecurity, which is hacking and coding. And what I found when I got in was it was. It was very different than that. There are so many other areas of cybersecurity that you can get into and that you can learn that has nothing to do with hacking or coding. So that's. That's how I got in. And I. I thank the Lord every day that that happened because I've. It's changed my life.

That's phenomenal. You know, I also came to cybersecurity accidentally. I'm a bit older than you, but I have been in cyber for a long time. But it wasn't my, you know, career choice, nor was there really a cybersecurity career. A lot of us who came in, I had a network architecture background and did a few other things, and we came in accidentally. Right. Suddenly, we're now cybersecurity people because we understand the infrastructure. So it's great to hear that we're still bringing people into the industry from really unique backgrounds, because I think it's needed if we're going to have a robust security ecosystem. Yeah. So tell me, what was the genesis for the ibersecuritygirl channels and what has your experience been so far? You do phenomenal work. I actually was watching some of your Instagram videos just to, you know, prepare for this episode, and I was really impressed with the way that you take difficult concepts and probably concepts that me and others who have been in cyber too long have made really difficult, and you take them and you break them down in a way that folk. The average person who isn't a cybersecurity professional could understand. What type of feedback are you getting from your audience? What's your experience been? How are you enjoying it?

Yeah, that's a great question. So I started Cybersecurity Girl because I really. I knew that if I was creating a TikTok account back in the day, and by the way, I didn't create it until I found that they were moving over to the US platforms and databases and they partnered with Oracle. And at that point I was like, you know, I really want a platform for good. And so I was thinking about, you know, what would little kid Caitlin want to see? What value can I provide her I could hopefully provide for the next generation. And that's actually why I love TikTok, because it's really reaching a completely different demographic than any other platform. And so when I was thinking about, you know, how can I make a difference for the next generation, I went through, okay, well, I was an engineer, and there weren't very many engineers. And especially mechanical, I think it's still at 5%. So, like, maybe I'll do a mechanical engineering one. And then I realized I always get asked about my degree. No one really knows what it is. And I would absolutely love to bring more people into cyber. So I started it with, you know, a few main goals. One is to get more diverse backgrounds in stem, and the other is just to train people to help them understand and see themselves in cybersecurity. So help them understand what cybersecurity is and then teach them how they can get in. And so they can also see themselves in this field because we have so many open job, open job listings. And there's just. I think there's a lot of people that are scared to even make the jump into cyber because they think it's just like, big, scary monster. And so that's how it started. And it continued to go in the direction of just educating the general public on what cybersecurity is and how they can be safe online as well. Mostly because of my mom and my grandparents, because they'd always ask me questions. I'm sure you get that all the time, Anne, of. You know, when people find out that you're in cyber, they ask pretty much any technical question, even to can you fix my printer? Which I get a lot, surprisingly. But it was more just educating people so I wouldn't have to do it every single time when I got home. So any question my mom asked or my parents asked me, I honestly turned it into a video. And those were the ones that actually went really viral. And I've gotten incredible feedback. Like you said, I absolutely love bringing our cybersecurity lingo. I feel like we're in our own little club and a lot of us feel really cool to be in this club because no one else understands what we're talking about. But I actually feel the opposite. I Just want to bring more people into this club because it's changed and impacted my life so much. And honestly, if we continue with the stigma of only certain people can get in, the US is going to be behind many other countries if we don't have, you know, all the different, diverse backgrounds coming into this field, this cybersecurity field. So I've gotten surprisingly very good feedback from a lot of people. At the beginning it was a little rough. Sometimes I'd get some negative feedback because there's those super techy coders that wanted to keep their safe space, their safe space. And they didn't like me coming in saying that you didn't need to know how to code to get into cyber. But besides that, it's been, I mean, it's been incredible. The community that's been built and it's taken off more than I could ever imagine. And the way I do this honestly is I again, wasn't ever really that technical. Like, I just like problem solving. And so every time I create a video I just think, okay, how, how did I learn how to do this? Because this is not like normal for me. Like, I have to break it down for myself. And the way I break it down myself is the same way I break it down for everyone else. That's the way I understand. So it's been really cool to see that process and continue to, to grow and learn.

That's fantastic. And by the way, I agree with you. We've been talking for years about the need to have diversity of talent. And that doesn't necessarily mean man versus woman. Diversity of talent in cyber means we need people from a lot of different backgrounds, educational backgrounds, experiences, work experiences. Because we have really hard problems in the industry and if we all look at them and try to solve them the same way, we're not going to solve them. You get this group think. I love the fact that you're challenging the paradigm and opening up the industry and we're not talking in that vernacular. That can be. You called it a scary monster. It's Right. When we talk about things like detonation chambers and sandboxes, it turns people off because they're like, wow, that sounds really militaristic. And I don't know if I want to do that for a living when it's really pretty basic. Right. And the fact that you can break it down to those basics is so meaningful. So I want to talk about some of those basics that you talk about. In your opinion, what does it mean to actually be cyber and privacy awareness?

Yeah. So the way I'm taking this question is just for the general public, and for me, it just means for people to understand that anytime they're online, anytime they download an app or a software, anytime they are inputting information into a product or service, data is being collected on them, it's being used, it's being sold, they're being tracked. And I just don't think people are aware because there was such a boom in technology in the last, you know, 10, 15 years that we're just trying to keep up and we want to take advantage of all these cool, new, cool new things. And what we don't realize is that when we're taking advantage of all these things, they're also taking advantage of us in some way, shape or form. So I think for me, it's just educating the public to let them know that it's all fine and dandy if they want to use these apps. It's all fine and dandy if they want to, you know, use IoT or whatever it is, but know that they're giving up some of their freedom, not really freedoms, I guess, their data, and that it's being used in other ways that they might not realize. And so it just. It's just that awareness for them because. And then also teaching them what to do with it after that. But in general, it's just overall understanding and awareness that every. Everything they do online is pretty much tracked.

I think that's great. And I don't think people realize that. Right. I think that this generation, and I have a daughter who's, you know, early 20s. Right. They are much less concerned about privacy. They put everything online. And I don't think they realize that the Internet is forever and everything they're doing online is tracked. And, you know, 20 years from now, this could come back to you. So just, you can still make those choices. Right. You can still make the choice to put all of those things online, but understand the impact of that choice. So I appreciate what you're doing.

Yeah, exactly. Thank you. Appreciate it.

Let's pull that thread just a little bit more. Let's say someone's at the very start of their journey to better understanding cybersecurity and data protection. And we can apply this to the general public because, believe it or not, employees, a lot of companies are the general public. There aren't, you know, even in larger corporations, there are a lot of folks who really don't understand security other than what is being fed to them by the corporation. Right. So what are the top five critical Tips or recommendations that you give folks who are just starting on the cyber awareness journey.

Oh man. Okay, so it's a loaded question, we'll walk through it. I think the first is understanding like what accounts and, and who has their data. And the way I do this is kind of taking an inventory. So the first thing I do is look through my emails. I, I look through my emails to see what companies are emailing me, what I've done with those companies and if it's companies that I've like never used or used one time I go to their website and I request to delete the data, ask them to delete my account, delete my data. A lot of people just press unsubscribe but they don't realize that pressing unsubscribe doesn't really do anything. It just opts you out of email list. But these, this company still has you. So take an inventory, go through your Google or like your Gmail or anything like that, any of your emails and see who has your data actively. And then what I would do is Google yourself. Because a lot of people, I know it sounds self indulging but it's actually not. There's so much that's a great way to see what information is out that the Internet has on you. And for me it's, you know, you can see tons of data brokers at least in the US that have a ridiculous amount of personal information on you and start requesting to delete it. I think those are the two main things is just understanding who adds your data. And then also you can do this by looking at your home screen, seeing what apps you have. If you downloaded an app a while ago and create an account, don't just delete that app, go request, have them delete your data. A lot of people just think like unsubscribing or deleting an app automatically deletes you from that system. It doesn't. You have to actively request to delete your data off of those apps and platforms and softwares and then moving forward, just signing up for as little as possible. Like if you could continue as a guest, I would highly suggest continue as a guest if it's a, it's something that you don't use that often. And then when you do continue as guest, I would make an email that is really only for kind of one off random stuff so they don't have all your personal data. For example, if someone were to get into one of your emails, hopefully it's only your kind of junk email stuff. I Always use. There's also a lot of services that actually offer the ability to generate emails and passwords and phone numbers and designate them to specific websites so you don't actually have to give your real emails. So I would just again sign up for as little as possible. You want to try to minimize your digital footprint as much as possible and then also again start deleting your data off of the data brokers websites. That's really big in the US I mean the issue is anytime you do anything, basically every few months, it ends up being back on data brokers. So actually partner with a company called Delete Me because I don't have the time to go through hundreds and thousands of data brokers to delete my data every couple months when it pops up. And then when it comes to permission, give as little permission as possible. So like say for example, if you're going on a website and it asks you for a cookie that's don't press allow all. Usually there's a button that says manage cookies and I only allow like functional cookies or if an app asks for permission to get your photos or push notifications or anything like that. I literally minimize the permissions as much as possible. I am trying to give the least amount of privilege while still being able to use them. And so those are kind of my top five is one, understand the accounts you have, taken inventory of your emails. Two is kind of Google yourself, see what's out there. And then moving forward it's try to sign up for as little as possible, delete your data from the data brokers. And then again this is give as little information as possible and don't allow permission for everything.

I think that's phenomenal and we are really aligned and I'm glad to hear you say it. I'm going to make my family listen to this because every time I give them those advice, much like many of us, they just kind of, I get the eye roll and they okay, you're paranoid. So it's great to hear that validation and that's really, really good advice. And I, I captured the note on Delete me because I'm not familiar with them and much like you, I don't always have the time to go through and see where I am. So that's fabulous.

Yeah, they're, they're a lifesaver. I, I used to literally, I mean some of my first viral videos were showing how people can delete their data off of like specific data brokers. But there's literally hundreds of them and it they pop up like, like every couple months. Because it's. I don't. I don't know where they're getting all this. I mean, I have an understanding of where they're getting this information, but it's. I don't want that. And I started. I gifted that to my family, too, because I was like, I don't want my family to be tied back to me. Like, I don't want. There's just. They just need to delete everything.

That's great. Well, let's keep going. Some of your videos are drawn from current events in the headlines, and we're at the beginning of 2024 right now. So are there any current trends you are, seeing as you're doing your research and what do you recommend? Your, you know, the folks that watch your videos, the listeners of our podcast, what should they be looking out for right now?

Yeah, so there's a lot of current trends, and I think I'll stick with two. One is social engineering. It continues to just be ridiculous. And that's really. That gives us, like, the key to the castle, right? We're the ones that they're trying to trick. So that's why I love being able to do awareness pieces on this, so people can understand that they have the power to prevent stuff like this from happening, whether that's in your company or in your own home. Social engineering continues to. And that's for people that don't know what social engineering. That's like phishing emails or spam calls that are trying to trick you into getting data about you. And they're just with AI specifically. And we'll talk about that also, because that's kind of the future as well. But AI is also just making it a lot harder to tell what's real and what's a scam. So as an individual, I just say really watch out for things. If it looks like there's urgency, if it's something looks a little off or there's a gut feeling that you have, I would just stop, like, take a deep breath and then try to figure it out. So one way I do this is like, let's say a bank emailed me some ridiculous email and asked me to, you know, confirm or send my identity. I would immediately stop, take a deep breath, and then call the bank separately. Don't use the number on the email that they give. Call them, like, Google them and say, like, okay, this is my bank branch. I'm going to call this phone number instead and then see if it's actually them. So I think social Engineering is going to continue to grow, especially with AI. I think AI is going to make it a lot more hard, like a lot harder for people to recognize. Phishing emails and even the AI voice cloning, that's going to be crazy too. But so it's phishing and then combined with AI, I think AI will be used to really up the game when it comes to hacking. But that also means that we need to use AI to up the game when it comes to protecting as well. So those are kind of the two trends. And then also actually I'm going to say one more. Third party management is absolutely huge. We can see that from SolarWinds and we can see that from MoveIt, which was a file transfer system. So large third party management companies, or large third party companies that get hacked, it ends up doing a massive ripple effect. And then also we can see that with the Citrix database, which they weren't hacked but they had a issue, it has a ripple effect and it impacts a lot of organizations. And so if you're not doing your third party due diligence correctly and or not kind of coming up with the correct contract, I think we're going to see a huge issue with third party management and it's going to continue to grow. So those are the kind of three, three things that I think are going to be on the horizon. Flasher are already here.

Yeah, look, I agree. Phishing is forever. And I want to talk to you a little bit about, more about AI voice cloning. Also you've talked about things like safety breaches on baby monitors with these type of, you know, security breaches or online safety issues. We talked a lot about what you think are threats. What you know, is there anything else right now that's making you sit up or any particular event that's making you sit up and take note? And I particularly, not just in the US but globally. We're going into a very large election year. There's a lot of different, you know, elections that are taking place around the world. Do you ever think about how, you know, AI voice cloning and deepfakes and those type of things are going to impact that type of environment?

Yeah, I start going down that rabbit hole and then I freak myself out and then I like pull myself back because there's so many rabbit holes you can go down and there's so many threats. I think for me, what, what scares me the least right now is the infrastructure, hacking of the infrastructure. So actually there was a news article that said some water facility was hacked because their password was 1111. And it's like we're not even teaching general cybersecurity awareness and how important it is to people that have, have a lot of control with the infrastructure that runs our country. And so my concern is more again, and this is not surprising at all because I'm in the education and awareness space, but is how are we going to continue to educate the people in the field that are, you know, are pushing the buttons and are responsible for infrastructure that supports this, this entire country that was hacked, I think by like an Iranian company. So it just, I, for me personally, it's the infrastructure and also just general training like that. We need to start focusing on obviously the AI voice, cloning. Who knows what's going to happen with the elections. I, yeah, I can't even understand. I mean, my mind just continues to get crazy ideas about all the stuff that can be done, especially during elections that I don't like going down that rabbit hole. I'm not going to lie to you. And it scares me a bit. But yeah, for me personally, it's more of like the infrastructure like that runs our country that I'm, I'm more concerned with. I'm not sure what are your thoughts?

No, I love the way you brought that back. Look, cyber people love to have like the spooky thing. What's the next spooky thing? And I've, I've actually written and spoken many times that cyber hygiene, which is what you were just talking about, is the thing that actually causes most breaches and most events. It's not the most sophisticated, spooky new age thing. It's the fact that you don't have strong passwords, or you're not using multi factor authentication, or you haven't encrypted the right data, or you have too much privilege, which is, you know, sort of that concept of giving too many cookies. Right. So I love that you brought it back there because that is right in my mind. Right. In the opinion of Ann Johnson, the right things we still need to be focused on are basic cyber hygiene. And if we don't focus on basic cyber hygiene, including our supply chain, which you talked about, it doesn't. These other threats don't matter because people are just going to use basic attacks. Why would they spend the money on sophisticated attacks if they can use basic attacks to get into your environment?

Yep, exactly.

Let's pivot a bit. I want to talk about career. You talk a lot about this on your channels. And I know that we have a common point of view that to be in the cybersecurity industry, you don't have to be super technical. You don't have to have every professional certificate or acronym in your headline. You don't have to be a coder. Much like you. I took a coding class because I was required to take it. I passed it and I moved on and said that was one of the hardest things I've ever done. So kudos to all the coders out there because it is really hard. Can you expand on how you think about career and really how you think about career for folks that are trying to break into the cybersecurity industry?

Yeah. So I think we're now in an age where people are recognizing that they want to get into cyber, but there's not enough education on the different areas of cyber security that they can get into. And actually was just watching a video this morning and someone was like, I can tell when people aren't actually in cyber security when they just say that they're in cybersecurity versus when people are. And they say, oh no, I specialize in data protection and privacy, or I specialize in access management, or I specialize in network security. So what is, for me, what I see what's happening is people are like, oh, I need to get into cybersecurity. And then they'll take like a general cybersecurity certification, which is great. Like, those are great. It shows that you're love continued. I love continued learning. It shows that you, you're interested in cybersecurity and that you might have like the very, very standard, high level overview of what cybersecurity is. But at this point, I think a lot of companies are needing a little bit more of a niche. And that's what I'm starting to realize is that you need to start figuring out what domain. Because everyone's. For me personally, what I see is every. Everyone's first question is what certification do I need? And I'm like, there's so many other things that you need before a certification to get in. In my, again, this is my opinion into cybersecurity. For me, I think it's, you need an understanding of what really what domain you kind of want to start going into. And then again, some certifications might be helpful, but it just, to me, they're like a college degree. It shows that you have an education, a general background, but what matters the most is the skills that you can show and prove and how are you getting those skills. And a lot of people will probably say, well, I don't have a job, so how can I show skills? But there's a lot of other ways that you can show skills. Like for example, there's try Hack Me or Hack the Box where you can do exercises there and get certified little certificates that show that you did that you can volunteer. Like, I have a few unpaid interns that have been helping me, you know, build an app. And there's, there's a lot of places that you can like volunteer at or if you go to like a local coffee shop and help them with their data protection, like there's, there's so many ways that you can show skills. And also it's networking, which I hate to say, but I would much rather have someone spend, let's say you spend 15 hours studying for a certification. I would much rather have you spend 15 hours or, you know, five hours studying like general cybersecurity, that domain. Like, let's say you're going to go into data protection, let's say five to 10 hours of studying data protection. Specifically understanding, you know, getting involved in groups, starting to talk to people and then an extra five hours like really, really networking with people that are already in that industry, understanding what skills are going to be needed for that job, what groups that you can join, the people that you need to meet, webinars that you can help, you can host, you can host stuff. So like if you're involved in groups in that specific niche, you'll meet way more people. It's a lot better to get a job. I think there's just a lot of uncertainty around what cybersecurity is and how to get in. And it's, it's not in my opinion, you need to figure out which lane, like which domain. And actually I've been working on a, a comprehensive survey that people can take and it will tell them one out of the 14 domains that would be a best fit for them and their skills. And then from that domain really start getting involved in different groups and networking and studying for specific certifications if needed in that area.

I completely agree and I love the fact that you're going to help people understand because cyber is a huge field. To your point, people will come to me and say, oh, well, you're a cyber expert. I said, well, no, not really. I mean there's nobody that's, well, maybe there's a few people that are true end to end cyber experts, but I know a lot about a little bit and a little bit about a lot. So it's like, and that's the way cyber is I know a lot about online fraud and I know a lot about identity and the rest of the stuff I know a little bit about. Right. And I think that's, that's what people need to understand. And there's so many different careers in cyber. You can do anything. You can be a cyber salesperson, you can be a marketing person, you could be a cyber lawyer. You don't actually have to be a cybersecurity practitioner. And I think people need to understand that also. So thank you for doing that hard work.

Yeah, of course.

As I said earlier, we're recording right after the new year, so I am going to ask you to do something I never do. I always refuse to have predictions for 2024 for cyber or privacy or for the new year for those things because no matter what you say, it's probably going to come true. But I am curious of what you're thinking is going to be prominent beyond anything we might have talked about prominent.

Like from a career perspective, from an.

Industry perspective, what do you, where do you see the industry going in 2024?

It's actually hard to say. I could have told you that last year, which I again, like you said, we kind of, kind of know where it's going. I feel like we're at this really weird crossroads where companies are saying they want entry level but then are requiring skills that like no entry level can attain. And the entry level folks are not really achieving the skills that are needed for specific jobs. Like they're getting like a security plus and are thinking that that's all they need to get. And so there's gonna need to be kind of a little bit more upskilling from the entry level. And that when I say entry upskilling, I'm not saying like obviously skills that you'd need for a full time job at least to show that you're what you've learned and put it into practice in a different way. And then I think the companies actually are gonna need to start maybe having a little bit of a reality check. And Ann, I'd love to get your opinion on this. You're obviously at Microsoft, but I think companies are gonna need to start really understanding and niching down. The other thing I would like to see, which I don't think we are going to, but I'm working with a few organizations to help with this, is if there's a way that we can standardize what the different, like let's say we have 10 area entry level jobs. If we could standardize what each of those roles and responsibilities looks like across at least the big organization, it will allow a lot more people to start realizing and understanding the skills they need to obtain in order to get that job. Because right now, like you said, there's a million and one ways of saying, you know, of different teams. Like you can say network architecture, but then it could just be a SOC analyst. Like there's just, there's so many interchangeable things and every single company has different teams and they're pretty much the same at the end of the day, but they're different names. And so it's very confusing for, for entry level people to, to go into the field because there's just too many definitions. And so if there's a way that we can standardize entry level roles so that, that people can have kind of a goal and know what, where they're going, I think that would be extremely helpful. At least for like, you know, the Fortune 100 companies that are hiring. Like these are on average a 10 roles that we need, that these are the skills that are going to be needed. The roles that like this is what the role would look like. I think that would be very helpful. What are you thinking?

You know, I love that idea. If Microsoft and you know, Microsoft and Google and Amazon and Ford Motors, whoever it is, could get together and say an entry level cybersecurity architect job is this. These are the responsibilities, these are the requirements, these are the skills we're looking for. It's certainly a worthwhile exercise and I'll take that up. I'll talk to some of my peers across some of those companies and see if they're willing to have a common naming scheme, kind of a common and functionality and maybe it's something we can drive through like a sans organization. Right. So that people, when they go in to get training, they're going in and getting really targeted training for what that entry level architect job looks like. But that's a great idea.

Yeah, yeah. I'm working with the US Department of Commerce and like Ms. Nice to try to figure stuff like this out so we can definitely try to work together too. But yeah, Sansa is also a great organization. I just feel like if we're all coming together and like on a consistent page, it will make it a lot easier and less daunting. And I also think it would make it a lot easier from a training perspective because people that are trying to enter into the field, there's a bajillion trainings and there's also, you know, a lot of universities that are saying oh, you know, get a cybersecurity degree and it just, they don't really, no offense, they don't really amount to anything. Like I don't think a lot of people are getting what they need out of these because they're not mapped to like an end goal of like you're going to get this type of job and these are the skills that you need. So I think if we, I mean, we have to come together on both, we're building the bridge to the center, building it back. But yeah, I would love to talk with you offline about that and maybe we can figure something out.

Yeah. And I think going through NIST is great because that's something you can easily land on sans. Right. And have organizational input because we all talk to nist. So let's put that on the to do list for a very short term follow up. So I want to thank you, Caitlin. This has been phenomenal and I'm a cyber optimist. Right. Despite the rise in overall cybercrime, I always stay optimistic. The reason I get up every morning is because I believe we're fighting the good fight and it's really, really mission driven work. What are you optimistic about from a cyber standpoint?

Yeah, honestly I'm a big optimist, sometimes a little too much. I'm just optimistic about the future of cyber in general. Like just getting as many people in and the diverse backgrounds of people that are coming in. Like, I get messages from every type of person. Like parents that have been a mechanic and are now starting wanting to get a new career to like even high school students that are already prepping to get a job that they don't even want to go to college. So it's really, really cool to see all the different types of people that are interested in cybersecurity and then I can't wait to see how the world changes with these new people in it.

Me too. People like you, people that are coming up behind you, people that are just career changing. Wherever folks are coming from, we need people. As you said, we have a shortage of folks that are actually trying to come and to cybersecurity and we need folks to challenge the paradigms and bring different ideas. So thank you so much for making the time. I know you're extraordinarily busy, so I really appreciate you making the time to join today.

Of course. Thanks so much for having me and I appreciate it. I know you're busy too, so I appreciate you hosting this. It's so helpful for everyone. And yeah, thank you again for having.

Me, and many thanks to our audience for listening. Join us next time on Afternoon cybertea. I invited Caitlin Sarian to join Afternoon cybertea because she has such a unique perspective. She's out there on TikTok and on Instagram educating both the general public and people trying to break into cybersecurity. And she does this thing that's really difficult to do. She takes really hard concepts and makes them simple. So she was an outstanding guest and I know you'll love the episode.

Foreign this week on the Microsoft Threat Intelligence podcast, Zach Korman joins me to give us some hot takes on AI and cybersecurity. Be sure to listen in and follow us@msthreatintelpodcast.com or wherever you get your favorite podcasts.