Beyond the Good Girl: Working Mothers, Burnout & the Bias Traps

Hello everyone and welcome to Holding It Both Ways podcast. Today, as we always have, this is for leaders that are navigating the in-between inclusion, identity, and impact all at once. And through human stories like we're going to talk about today and lived experience, Our episodes offer reflections and insights to lead with more depth, courage, and care. And today, I am absolutely delighted to have Gifty Enright with me. Gifty, good morning.

Good morning. Thanks for having me.

Well, thank you for joining us today. It's an absolute delight. I can't wait to get into our conversation. But before we do, Could I ask you to introduce yourself and let the audience know who you are, what you're about?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm Gifty Enright, and, um, I am a keynote speaker, and I speak about leadership, and I speak about women in the workplace and, um, inclusive cultures. I also specialize in coaching working mothers. So career moms are my bag, um, and basically I came onto this from my own struggles with life and combining a corporate life and all that. So that's me, that's what I do.

Brilliant, brilliant. I love the intersection that we have across so many aspects, uh, from the corporate work experience to, you know, the advocacy work and Well, you coach, I mentor. They're different but similar, right? And so, it's brilliant. And I know the audience really wants to hear more about your why. So, let's kind of dive into that a little bit. Now, in my work, you know, I generally, because of my past leadership in the feminist movement nationally in Canada, I've always advocated for women very broadly. And with that, you know, we've always talked about just the general, really, essence of the oppression that women and girls face. I always talk about that, you know, women are the largest group of marginalized people on this planet. And that was— that's a generalization of all women. And we know that not all women are equally oppressed. Some are more oppressed than others because of intersectional aspects of their identity.

Yeah.

But beyond that, you know, we always talk about beyond that generality, you know, there's the implications of what happens, you know, around typically marked around kind of 30-year-old where we see that there's the pregnancy penalty or the motherhood penalty that I know we're going to talk about more. But then, you know, it doesn't stop there. Then we get into the perimenopause, menopausal penalty and so forth. Have I missed other penalties?

Well, no, I think you've covered it. I think you covered it. But what we're talking about basically is the matrisons, which is literally from that period where a woman— actually, it's even before the matrisons. So from when a woman starts having periods right through to, you know, menopause and postmenopausal, it just never stops. Mhm.

Yeah, absolutely. So when you explore the work with working mothers, what— are there some very common things that come up amongst them, or is everyone truly very unique?

There are common themes, and I mean, the research shows the parents are the most stressed out demographic, right? Parents. And so It's that time of your life where the demands on you are unrelenting, and it's not something you can afford to fail at, you know. You can afford to fail at your job and stuff, but you know, when another human is dependent on you, failure is not an option. You have to get your act together, you have to pull yourself up by your bootstraps, and unfortunately, the way society is constructed. Women are the ones that, you know, carry that care burden. I mean, we shoulder about 75% of that. That's even in 2025. So the common themes are these women, because of the unrelenting demands on their time and their service and stuff, they are more prone to burnout and stress and all the things that come with it. And also because a lot of people don't actually know— humans in general don't know how to care for what we call our body, right? And so, um, if you're spiraling biologically, uh, and then you have all these societal pressures on you, then that means that women, we have a particular, uh, type of, um, I guess going down the rabbit holes and, you know, burning out. So that's a common theme through these women.

Wonderful. Now, when I think of it, like, I think of many things, such as the general— the observation that I've made when we look at the way, you know, girls and women are socialized within society today. There's the good girl complex. Good girls don't. Right? And it affects so much of the decision-making. And I believe I've written many times about the aspect of I don't believe there's such a thing as imposter syndrome. A, it's not a syndrome. It's we all can have feelings of not fitting in, taking on something bigger than we thought we were ready for. But it's society that actually has created this syndrome concept around it. Do you run into aspects that relate to that confidence question, um, or other aspects that are— I guess we would call them invisible barriers that are put upon the women, um, that you work with?

Yeah, so, uh, the imposter syndrome, um, men have it too, but if you like, society kind of excuses them. And so there is something called the performance bias. So when a man doesn't feel good enough or feels that they are out of their depth or something because of performance bias, which is basically people assume they know what they're doing. And for a woman, you have to go in there and prove yourself. So it's not a level playing field. So when you both hit that spot where you're feeling like an imposter, he is given the benefit of the doubt. You have to prove. Yeah, right. Um, And so that is why women tend to suffer from it a lot more, is just because the environment is not a level, uh, playing field. And, and then if you throw on that, then the other demands of, you know, on the woman's time and what else she's expected to do, then it's just on a slippery slope.

Yeah, it's always interesting when you talk about that concept of the level playing field, right? The conversation comes up within the in the leadership space, right, about meritocracy, especially these days. And it's like, I totally agree with the idea of meritocracy if the playing field was level to begin with.

Right, right.

And we deal with it. I don't know, have you ever heard my example of the woman who gets asked why she skipped step J related to your point about this performance bias?

No, please, please explain.

Very, very quickly because I'm sure the listeners have heard it before. It was In my experience, what ends up happening is you have a male performer who goes in and kind of goes from A to Z. And they go, wow, he's such a leader. He's so brave, courageous, on and on and on. Yet you have a woman that does exactly the same thing with exactly the same outcome. And they go, why did she skip step J? The simple fact is that we are met our perception of our identity based on gender puts us in a different level of judgment on performance to the fact that women are micro-analyzed where men are macro-analyzed.

Yes, absolutely, absolutely. And there's several examples of this. You know, there was that one of the CV where they changed the name, you know, to a man's name, and suddenly doors were opening. Same CV. So, um, it's just on that societal expectation. And you're right, when it's a woman, the lens with which we're looking— we're looking for what she missed. Whereas as a man, it's conferred onto them. They know what they're doing and, and all the rest of it. And I mean, if I have a penny for the number of times that in the corporate world I was estimated— underestimated, you know, you're standing there with somebody and somebody will assume that the male standing next to you, you work for the male. It could never be the other way around, you know. But that is just the society we live in.

Yeah, I love that analogy that you're talking about because I remember in one instance where we ended up having a vendor we dealt with had a new sales rep came and saw me. This was in my role previously as a CIO. And I'd been speaking in 14 different countries about the particular technology coming right out of the labs. And this rep knew that I had a presence in this. But when he came to do the presentation, he spoke to my right-hand person who happened to be a man.

Yeah.

And he was filling them in. And I'm sure you relate. It was in that moment I went, well, do I be the nice girl and not embarrass him because we don't want to hurt his ego? Or do I ask him a very pointed question that lets him know that I actually am a subject matter expert on this and the decision maker, and he probably should be talking to me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Did you encounter that kind of idea through your career?

Yeah. And so it's just what you said, you said about, you know, you're at that point where do I, you know, point it out to him, you know, and embarrass him or not. And this is the tightrope women walk as well, because if you take the other route, and embarrass him, that's not going to go down well for you either as a woman, right? So somebody's underestimating you, but the way you have to point it out to them and inform them is a very tricky line you have to walk as well. Because when a man embarrasses somebody in public, that's fine, he's been assertive, he's been a leader. When a woman does that, she gets called all sorts of words starting with a B. Right? So it's just, um, such a tightrope. And for me, so there's, there's a workshop I develop, um, I deliver for corporates called, uh, the Gender Bias Traps, right? And so they're traps that women fall in. And if you don't know these traps and you don't know how to navigate them, right, then basically you just go straight into them. And before you know it, you're not being invited to meetings, or, you know, your career is stunted and all that. And simply because these traps are there, um, you know, you need to be aware of the performance bias, this likability bias, this affinity bias, this maternity bias, you know, all that. And if you don't know about them and you don't know how to navigate them, yeah, you're just on a hiding to nothing.

Wow. You had talked about that, you know, from the work, and you began with you know, this very broad concept of burnout that many women have, especially, you know, mothers.

Yeah.

Are experiencing. Is there another aspect that pops up equally as popular with that as well for, for working mothers?

Well, yes. So there's a burnout side of things, uh, which a lot of them try to negotiate. For me, and I think this is a byproduct of that, what happens is they feel that they have to make this rather binary choice when they start struggling, do you know? Uh, and it's like, give up and come and sit at home, right? And look after the kids. They think that is the only option. Uh, the society leaves them. Yeah, you know, so it's either that or, I don't know, be an absent mom, you know? And by an absent mom, I don't mean physically absent, um, emotionally absent as well. So I was, I was the latter. So um, I was damned if somebody was going to take my career that I'd built so— take so long to build away from me. So, and I was very competitive, and I was going to go toe-to-toe with the men. And that's fine. In my mind, anything a man could do, I could do, if not better, right? But, um, apart from it not being a level playing field and it wearing you out and all the rest of it, what happens is that in that competition with the men they can literally roll out of bed and be in the office, whereas you will have to have done a full day's work before you get to the office, do you know? And, and so if you're going toe to toe with them in a not level playing field, it just, it just never works well in your favor. And so what, what was happening for me in particular is after going and wearing myself out at work, I will come home and I'll be an empty shell. So it's like my kids, you know, I was sat there and I will be going through the motions with them, but that was all I was doing. And the kids feel that, do you know? It affects their self-esteem because you haven't brought your best self to them. It's like they're not good enough, do you know? And a lot of women, they just don't realize that the damage they're causing to the kids by not negotiating better work conditions, and they themselves working on themselves to have the skills they need to work in a different way so that you can be home and not just be an empty husk for the children, because they need you to be fully present, to see them. That is what contributes to the self-esteem.

Yeah. I'm wondering if in the work that you've done, because it's something that comes up quite a bit in my work, is, you know, I regularly quote Kimberlé Crenshaw, you know, who was first quoted as the word intersectional that everybody seems to use these days, although she had a very specific intended purpose, of course. And I love to remind readers that this actually came out of the Black feminist movement originally, but Because to a large degree, in today's interpretation of the idea of intersect, we are all intersectional human beings. There's— we're more than just a mother or just a woman or just a race or religion, whatever it is. Does those intersectional components come, come out with the women that you work with? And is there anything that's more prevalent that people keep getting wrong?

Yes. So for, you know, so for me, you know, if you're talking intersectional, here I am, right? Right. So I'm basically intersectional is just when you have more than one of the biases, right, against you. So, so here I am. I'm a woman, I'm Black, right? I'm a mother. So all that going on. And, and in each of those biases, there are things that you suffer anyway. And unfortunately, when you have them at the intersectional level, you know, it is more than the sum of its parts, so you suffer it even more, you know. And if you're not careful, it can take you out, because one of them is enough. Yeah, right, to take you out. But then if you then have to go and like For my part, for example, and I remember clearly, um, because I didn't grow up in the UK, I grew up, um, in Ghana, and I remember clearly the point I decided, I made the decision that I was never going to let my color hold me back. I don't care what happened, what anybody says, I was just never. And I remember clearly when I, when I made that decision, and I was one of the lucky ones to be in a position to even make that decision. Right? Because some people don't have the wherewithal to make that decision and don't even know they have a choice. Um, and so when the discrimination comes at them, it takes them out. But because I made that clear decision, whenever it came up or whatever, it's like, I'm not even engaging, I'm not dwelling on that, right? So it's not like it didn't come up for me, it did, but I just thought, you're not even gonna— no, just no. Um, But the motherhood bit and then being the woman bit, right, I— that, if you like, it's not like being Black is not as fundamental, but if that was more fundamental, perhaps, like, I am who I am, what can I do about it? Do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

And again, being a woman, I am what I am, what can I do about it? The motherhood bit sometimes is sold to us a choice we made. Okay, so then if you made that choice, you've made your bed, lie in it, you know, because people see that as a lifestyle choice, you know. And, and so because with that comes all sorts of, um, erroneous thoughts and, and, um, mindset issues. Uh, but I mean, when I'm coaching these women, what I'm always saying to them is somebody's got to make that decision because otherwise it's going to pay our pension. Who's who's going to take our bins out? Who's going to be there in the care homes, like, in 20 years? Who's gonna do that? And so, um, these people, these parents, what they're actually doing is a public service, right, to society. And it's not seen that way, and they're punished for it, which is insane, right?

Yes.

And so when you're there suffering, burning out because you've been discriminated against because you're a woman— and I mean, there was a post on LinkedIn yesterday By this woman saying, so basically for all the mothers out there, from September to December you're not getting paid, all the work you're doing is not getting paid. That's what the research shows, right? And so it— when you have to live with those conditions on top of everything else that you have to face, then the impact of intersectionality is way, way more than the sum of its individual parts.

Wow. I'm wondering, as you talk about that, and as I've reflected historically on my own relationship with my mom, I was very blessed that my mom was always there. She was always there so much that I just always assumed that she was there. And I mean, since she's passed on and that, and I've reflected, I've realized that I just took it for granted because she was always there. Do you run into that with the mothers that you work with, that they are sensing that almost expectation because they are always there, that they're juggling everything and maybe not perfectly, but they are showing up? Yeah, something that hits them.

Yeah, they're showing up, but they're being taken for granted, right? So like you say, they're always there. But for me, it's not just being there, always there. There's been there and there's been there. I was there, but I wasn't. You know what I mean, right? And so there were things that I was doing because I'm a mother and I'm expected to do that, and, and what I perhaps placed more emphasis on, um, and I think if you look at the generation before us and everything, they were always there, but were they there? Um, so I, I, as a parent, two things. You have two jobs to just make the child feel seen and to make sure they're safe. But people forget that that safety includes psychological safety, right? So it's not just making sure that they have the right clothes and they're fed and all that, and they lack for nothing materially, right? Um, and I think for a lot of mothers, when they're there, that is where the emphasis is— making sure the child is fed and all, all the rest of it, which is all great. But a child can be fed and their soul be deprived. And they're not seen. And they can come from a very affluent background and household and have a dearth of spirit and just very low self-esteem and all the rest of it, right? And for me, when I'm working with these women, this is what I'm drumming into them. So you can be there and not be there. And I want them to be actually there, because it's better to be there less if when you're there, you're there. Does that make sense?

Yeah, totally. Totally.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, it's such an interesting conversation. And for the audience, and I'm kind of looking at some of our notes from our pre-call, and I'm looking at, you are also more than the role and this coach and advisor that you've talked about. You're also an author.

Yeah.

I'm trying to be. You are. Congratulations. But you know, you're also a keynote speaker as well. So I'm wondering, how has your inner compass really shaped how you show up and, you know, to deal with the often misunderstood or undervalued needs of women?

Yeah, so when I was doing the corporate thing, which I did for some 30 years, Um, I— there was always that voice there. There was always that still voice that I wasn't listening to myself, right? I was chasing the money, I was chasing the lifestyle. Um, there were all these boxes the society expected me to tick, and I was ticking and ticking and ticking it. Um, but my inner compass— what inner compass, right? It was just completely silenced, uh, because I had to do that to be able to tick all these boxes that to me was what was expected of me. And it was only after I'd finished ticking them and stood there feeling empty, thinking, what is the point, do you know, that I remembered, oh, hang on, that voice that's always been there, you know, that voice that's been saying, what the hell, right? So interestingly, I actually trained as a coach 25 years ago. Uh, those days it was up there with snake oil and pituli. It was, right? But that was what was crying out to my soul. I remember I, in my corporate job, some of us, we were taken to train as trainers to come and implement this thing in the organization. And I just put my hand up. I wanted— it was called Investment in Excellence, and it's helping people know about themselves and all the rest. I put my hand up. I wanted to be one of those trainers because I was that person. Um, I've always been about personal development, always, always, always, even before personal development was a thing. Um, but it wasn't paying, right? And, and as a coach, I had to do my own sales and marketing. What the hell? No, no, no, right? As I, you know, IT transformation, I will get paid regardless. No sales and marketing involved. That's not my bag. So I was going to get paid every month regardless. Why wouldn't I do that? It was easy. I didn't have to find my own clients. Right? And so, um, the inner compass was just put under whatever rug I could, uh, uh, brush it under. Yeah, until I ended up in burnout, until I found out that yes, I'd been climbing the ladder, but the ladder was against the wrong wall, right? Okay. And so it was like, whoa, whoa, okay, I'm at the top of this ladder, but this is not the view I anticipated? This is not what I wanted. Why am I feeling so empty? Why am I not happy with my life? So the whys were coming up and they were louder than ever. Yeah. And that's why I wrote the book, because I wanted other women to know what is important for a start, do you know? Um, and the— all the juggling we're doing and burning ourselves out and all that. Yeah. Do we know our values? Are we living aligned to our values? Do you know? Um, and so for me, if you like, that was my— whatever the moment is— my Damascene moment where I was, um, brought to my knees. And I had to, because it was part of the human condition. When things are going well and swimmingly, we never learn, do we? We learn a lot more when things come crashing around our ears. And that's when we're more open, we're cracked right open, and we're more receptive. And so I thought, okay, I am now going to go follow my heart.

Good.

Um, I am now going to do what's been on my heart and be calling out to me for a very, very long time. And was it easy?

No.

Yeah.

Your audio's— it just stopped. Are you able just to check that? Oh, there we go.

Can you hear me?

I can hear you. Yes.

Okay, that's it.

Yeah, yeah, I'll do a little editing to take that out, so that's fine.

Okay, so there were moments where I thought I wasn't gonna make it, do you know? I just thought, oh my God, uh, this is, you know, you're supposed to go and follow your heart and everything was going to line up for you and all that, but that was not my experience, right? Oh no, it wasn't. It was very hard. It was, uh, a crisis of faith, everything thrown into it, you know.

Oh, I, I understand you so implicitly right now.

Oh, thank God, thank God somebody else gets it, because that's very naive, you know. I was very naive. I was going to give everything out, ride off into the sunset, and, you know, all be bells and whistles and flowers and meadows. And that's not what it was at all. And I was left doubting my sanity, thinking, I have had this nagging voice all this time, and now I choose to follow it, and this is what happens. Do you know Uh, but then you have to then dig deep and find who you are and actually fight for what you want and what you believe in. And I think that is what allows you, once you've been forged through that fire, to be able to bring more value to others.

Oh, completely agree. Um, at this moment, did you want to tell people, because you've mentioned your book, you haven't told people what the book is called in case they wanted to look for it to learn more from you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the book is called Octopus on the Treadmill, um, and basically it is about women, uh, performing that 8-arm thing we do with all the demands on our lives, and we don't even have the luxury of standing still to fulfill those demands. And why? Hence the octopus on the treadmill. And it is about my personal story, uh, and basically my fight back from ill health, of burning myself out. But not just because burnout sounds all fluffy and everything, but I had, you know, a spreadsheet of 14 symptoms I was tracking every month, color-coded. All right, hey, with my battle with the doctors and everything, and my own personal fight through that back to health, and then deciding to change my life around completely to live a life that suited me better.

Brilliant, brilliant. And in my experience, you know, if you become aware and you're listening to what I refer to as kind of the universe speaking to you, this, this really external, ephemeral kind of source. And what I find is, you know, it keeps talking to you. And if you don't hear it, gets a little louder, a little louder until eventually it just kind of smacks you across the head and says, Wake up! And that was my experience to that moment, which was part of my journey. And when I talk about acceptance in my as-yet unpublished book, that is the stage of preparing, because we really have to open ourselves up to be prepared for the change. And it sounds like that very much is what you encountered as well.

Yeah, but for me, it was the naivety. Because in a spiritual world, yeah, people think that, yeah, if you're being spiritual and following your calling and everything, you know, things are just gonna fall at your feet and it's going to be one coincidence after another and everything will go swimmingly, right? Um, that wasn't my experience. Um, yeah, it was a hard fight. Yeah, every day to actually go after my purpose, as in this is what I want to do, you know. Um, and it got to a point where I was actually doubting my sanity, like, okay, so this voice wouldn't let up, but now that I'm listening, what, what the hell? Why aren't things going the way I expect them to go? Um, and so what you have is the messy chaos as you're navigating do what it is and where it is you have to go and everything like that. Um, and hanging in there and trusting. And I, I— trusting me, I couldn't even spell the word, you know, really, because I'm such a very logical person and 1 1 has to be equal to 2, and I need to see the outcome and all predictions, and I need all the spreadsheets and all that kind of stuff, right? And suddenly here I was in this very uncertain world, not knowing what I was doing, and just let go of the old world, but then the new world wasn't quite here yet, do you know? And that moment was a very, very frightening moment. Um, what was more than a moment, um, but it's just hanging on in there and believing that, do you know, um, and it's the moms that kept me going because I thought, if I can come through this and if I can help another person not go through this chaos and help them navigate their life like that, that would be worth it, you know. And so it's what kept me hanging in there and hanging in there and hanging in there.

Oh, brilliant, brilliant. Well, I know we're getting close to the top of the hour. I want to thank you, Gifty, for making the time and being here to share with everyone today. Um, It's just so brilliant. And the fact that you work on a sector that I don't always directly support, probably more incidental rather than directly, and, you know, thank you for the care and the work that you're doing in supporting, you know, working mothers. Obviously, it's a huge, you know, aspect. Even yesterday, the whole news cycle was filled with the government's latest promise of, you know, making families' lives better with these extra care days, except when you talk to working mothers, they don't exactly help. Um, and so no matter what kind of happens, it, it is done in isolation that doesn't actually help the people that it's supposed to in the first place. And as you said, those women, over 75% if I remember your stat, yeah, you know, are the ones carrying that burden.

Yeah, yeah, they do. And it's not just the kids they're caring about, they're caring for the elderly as well. And so it's always the women. So, yeah, so you have the squeeze middle. So we're there in the middle and then you have the elderly parents and you have the kids and they both need you. And then if you have the temerity to go and have a job on top of it, that is a lot. That is a lot.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's— I always remember the one point from the Girls Club, which is a membership-based organization that I'm part of, and they had done a study with their 3,000-odd members And they talked about the realization that we are the first generation of women who actually are caught fully in this sandwich generation. And so we are breaking ground, let alone glass ceilings and walls and anything else. We are literally doing something that no other generation of women have done.

Yes. Yes, which has been— and not just that, so you have the parents living longer but they're not necessarily living healthier, right? So we have the science now to prolong life but not the quality. Yeah, do you know? And so there you are, you're dealing with frail parents and then, you know, you have the kids now and they're now on the other outside. It's a whole different set of issues evolving with social media and all that kind of added pressure now. Yeah, you have to deal with, um, as a parent. So it really is very stressful, and that's why they're the most stressed out demographic. And it's stressful on all fronts— physically, you know, financially, the whole shebang, you know. And so people ask me why I choose to specialize in working mothers, because they need all the help they can get. Otherwise, we would— we're not like All around the world now, birth rates are falling. Yeah, there's a reason for that.

Yeah. Yeah. Just try being a working mother existing in this world today.

Yeah.

It's not for the faint of heart.

No, it's not. It's not. And so the women now don't want to put themselves through it anymore. And if they do, it's like you're lucky to have one, you know? And but if we don't rectify that and support them and those birth rates go past a certain point, Humanity is going to pay for that.

So absolutely. Gifty, how can the audience find you? What platforms? Where? So they could be in touch, right?

So giftyonride.com is my website, and everything you need from me is there. I'm on LinkedIn, I'm on, I'm on Twitter, although I don't do a lot there. I'm on Instagram, I'm on Facebook. So I mean, you can get access to all my socials through my website.

Wonderful. Well, we'll make sure to put those links in the show notes so that everybody knows how to find you. Um, is there a closing kind of last thought you'd like to leave with the audience?

Yes. So, so the closing thought I'd like to leave is, as women, we are at the center of everything. Society might not treat us like that in terms of the respect they confer to us and how we're treated and all that, but let nobody take it away from you. We are what make— we are what makes the world go around. I don't care what anybody says, that is the truth.

Brilliant. Well, Gifty Enright, thank you so much for being with us today. Um, to our listeners, if you haven't already, don't forget to hit that subscribe button. Um, but once again, thank you, Gifty. Um, everyone have a wonderful day.

Thanks for having me.